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Speaker 1: The public has had a long held fascination with detectives.

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Speaker 1: Detective sy a side of life the average persons never

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Speaker 1: exposed to. I spent thirty four years as a cop.

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Speaker 1: For twenty five of those years, I was catching killers.

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Speaker 1: That's what I did for a living. I was a

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Speaker 1: homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead,

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Speaker 1: I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated.

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Speaker 1: The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories

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Speaker 1: from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw

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Speaker 1: and honest, just like the people I talk to. Some

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Speaker 1: of the content and language might be confronting. That's because

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Speaker 1: no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged.

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Speaker 1: Join me now as I take you into this world.

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Speaker 1: Welcome to another episode of Eye Catch Killers. Terrorism is

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Speaker 1: defined as the unlawful use of violence and intimidation, especially

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Speaker 1: against civilians, in the pursuit of political aims. Now that's

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Speaker 1: a fairly bland definition, but there's something we all have

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Speaker 1: to live with because, as we have now become aware,

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Speaker 1: none of us are immune to the effects of terrorism,

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Speaker 1: and it can strike in the most sudden and devastating fashion.

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Speaker 1: It is a role of multiple law enforcement agencies in

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Speaker 1: this country and across the world to identify and prevent

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Speaker 1: acts of terrorism. Most of their work is done behind

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Speaker 1: the scenes. I think it's about time on eye catch

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Speaker 1: kills we have a look at terrorism and get a

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Speaker 1: better understanding of what causes it and how we can

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Speaker 1: identify it and prevent it where possible, to educate us

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Speaker 1: all about terrorism. I can't think of a better person

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Speaker 1: than doctor Dave Gore. Dave is a former colleague and

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Speaker 1: friend of mine. We worked in tactical policing together and

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Speaker 1: major crime, but then he kind of just disappeared from

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Speaker 1: that world and embedded himself into the world of counter terrorism.

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Speaker 1: He's considered one of the most experienced counter terrorism investigators

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Speaker 1: in this country. He only recently left the New South

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Speaker 1: Wales Police and his post police career. He used his

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Speaker 1: vast experience to write a book titled Principles of the

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Speaker 1: counter Terrorism Process. Now I've read that book. I've learnt

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Speaker 1: so much from the book and today we're very fortunate

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Speaker 1: to have Dave in the studio to share his knowledge.

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Speaker 1: Dave Gore, it's good to see you, Gary.

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Speaker 2: It's been a while. Have you been.

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Speaker 1: Oh, I've made okay, the world has changed somewhat, But yeah,

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Speaker 1: I'm enjoying what I'm doing. And there is as we

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Speaker 1: were talking the other day, there is life outside the cops,

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Speaker 1: isn't it.

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Speaker 2: Look it's an interesting position. You spend thirty three five

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Speaker 2: years of your life dedicated to a career path and

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Speaker 2: then when it ends, it ends in a hurry. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: you've got to find where do you sit? Who's your

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Speaker 2: new identity? So it's been an interesting journey.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, Well we're sort of part of a tribe and

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Speaker 1: you lose that identity, and that was your identity Dave Gore. Oh,

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Speaker 1: he's a cop, Gary Jubel, and he's a cop, and

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Speaker 1: you step away from that. But I'm happy to say

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Speaker 1: and that, as you'll found out, there is a world

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Speaker 1: outside the police, and you realize it is fairly small

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Speaker 1: and narrowing the world that we operated.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and look, you're in when you're in the game,

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Speaker 2: it's all about policing. And our colleagues are still in

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Speaker 2: the game. That's what they do. They chase, they live

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Speaker 2: and breathe it. But rest assured when you get out

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Speaker 2: there is a larger world and there's a lot more

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Speaker 2: fulfillment and satisfaction in other aspects outside of policing that

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Speaker 2: I didn't think would actually occur, but it's there.

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Speaker 1: And you had a double headed household with policing because

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Speaker 1: your wife.

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Speaker 2: My good wife, which you've had the opportunity to work with,

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Speaker 2: and she's still in the police. So whilst I'm out,

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Speaker 2: I'm still within the police family, so to speak, sort

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Speaker 2: of as a de facto in law. So I still

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Speaker 2: sort of get my little dose of policing every now

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Speaker 2: and again.

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Speaker 1: She doesn't tell you, you just don't understand.

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Speaker 2: It can be quite challenging that have there's conversations because

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Speaker 2: I've changed perspective a little bit, which can be the

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Speaker 2: source of amusement in the household.

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Speaker 1: Well, you look relaxed, Dave. And people used to describe

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Speaker 1: yourself as pretty intense in police and I know I

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Speaker 1: cop that label as well as intense, but you always

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Speaker 1: you had the cranky face on the fair bit you

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Speaker 1: look a little bit more relaxed.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, Look it's you take stock. You know you reflect

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Speaker 2: and look, we're both pretty we're both pretty driven individuals.

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Speaker 2: I know that you know you're well regarded in your

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Speaker 2: field and in my field. You know, there was a

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Speaker 2: lot of there's a lot of expectation. Yeah, and that burden. Yeah. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: you're pretty switched on most of the time.

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Speaker 1: Well, I look at it this way. Sometimes you just

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Speaker 1: haven't got time for the niceties or the hello or

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Speaker 1: how you going. Sometimes it's we need this done, we

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Speaker 1: need this done now. And that that was policing the

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Speaker 1: sharp end, isn't it.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, And look your hope throughout your career that you

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Speaker 2: didn't burn too many bridges and that your colleagues realized

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Speaker 2: that you weren't being you were in being blunt, you

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Speaker 2: weren't being rude. You were just time poor and you

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Speaker 2: were under the pump. But now that we're away from

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Speaker 2: that and we can step back and look back in,

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Speaker 2: it's nice to look back in and actually take a

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Speaker 2: breath and enjoy, enjoy the ride, so to speak, smell

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Speaker 2: the flowers, enjoy the day, and actually take some time

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Speaker 2: to take stock of what's occurred.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, very much so. So your your book, congratulations on it.

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Speaker 1: I read it over the weekend and I think I'm

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Speaker 1: very much more enlightened about the world of counter terrorism investigation.

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Speaker 1: What prompted the idea of writing a book after you left?

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Speaker 2: Well, so when I left the police. I didn't live

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Speaker 2: on my terms.

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Speaker 1: You know, that's unusual, so I had to So when.

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Speaker 2: I left, you know, I feel a little bit unfulfilled,

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Speaker 2: and I had I spent twenty years of research, policy writing, developing, training,

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Speaker 2: operational engagements, and there was a great deal of knowledge.

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Speaker 2: And when I left the police, I thought, at some

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Speaker 2: point someone will come and want to download what I

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Speaker 2: knew so that it can be used for the next

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Speaker 2: generation and we can build on the information that we've

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Speaker 2: already got. But after a couple of months, I realized

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Speaker 2: that no one was coming, and look, there was a

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Speaker 2: lot of information that I thought, actually, it does help,

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Speaker 2: and it helps the process. We spent a lot of

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Speaker 2: time researching it, so I didn't want to lose it.

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Speaker 2: So when I looked around the marketplace of books, and

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Speaker 2: I looked particularly at the private sector who are now

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Speaker 2: partners in the ct Journey, the counter Terrorism JOm, and

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Speaker 2: there's no books for them. There's no reference books, there

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Speaker 2: was no guides, there was nothing to give them support

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Speaker 2: and instruction on how they should do business. So they

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Speaker 2: kind of motivated me to get my thoughts down and

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Speaker 2: to put something that can be used for the wider

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Speaker 2: communities to attention.

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Speaker 1: Well, we're going to dissect the book and the book

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Speaker 1: so people are aware of it. The principles of the

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Speaker 1: counter terrorism process, a guide for new guard of counter

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Speaker 1: terrorism professionals. And I've got to say, if you want

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Speaker 1: to up skill or have an understanding of what counter

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Speaker 1: terrorism is about, it's very much in that book. And

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Speaker 1: I can see the effort that's gone into it too, Dave,

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Speaker 1: So congratulations, it's not an easy book to write. You're

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Speaker 1: not just sitting there rattling off old war stories. It's

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Speaker 1: very deep. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: So there's a lot of research in that of academic

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Speaker 2: research that you know with and the beauty about being

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Speaker 2: in the police is that there is a lot of

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Speaker 2: academic research in the wider world of academia about terrorism,

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Speaker 2: but being in the police, being close to the cold face,

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Speaker 2: we've got the best sources of data. We've got the

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Speaker 2: real data. So our research was more accurate. And it's

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Speaker 2: that accurate research that I wanted then to communicate with

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Speaker 2: everyone so that we can move forward as opposed to

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Speaker 2: basing research on assumed facts or research based on information gaps.

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Speaker 2: So I've tried to get it down as best we could.

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Speaker 1: Okay, well, we've got a little bit ahead of ourselves.

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Speaker 1: We've got to wind it back a little bit. So

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Speaker 1: you didn't just wake up one day and decide you're

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Speaker 1: account the terrorism expert. You joined the police. What prompted

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Speaker 1: you to join the police?

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Speaker 2: So join the police. So before I joined the police,

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Speaker 2: I'm not a tall man, and back in the day

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Speaker 2: when I wanted to join the police, there was a

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Speaker 2: height restriction. There's a height and weight restriction, and you

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Speaker 2: had have certain test expansions and I didn't meet those

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Speaker 2: term was never going to So I went and joined

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Speaker 2: the bank. I started studying accountcy and was doing a

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Speaker 2: management program within Westpac. And then one lunchtime I'm sitting

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Speaker 2: down reading the paper and my lunch break and the

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Speaker 2: then Commissioner, Jack Avery removed the hype restrictions and mate restrictions.

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Speaker 2: So I wandered down to Maryland's police station and the

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Speaker 2: old desk sergeant was there and I said, excuse me, sergeant,

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Speaker 2: could I have an application? He grunted at me, through

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Speaker 2: the application at me, and I walked out.

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Speaker 1: Nothing like customers.

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Speaker 2: Customer service was fantastic. And then three months later I'm

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Speaker 2: down at the academy.

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Speaker 1: Okay, what year was that?

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Speaker 2: What year the eighty seven?

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Speaker 1: Okay, I was there just a little a little bit beforehand.

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Speaker 1: So your career in uniform first up.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so you know, this is the day back where

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Speaker 2: we did three months straight. We were trainees in the

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Speaker 2: police academy, so you employed as a police employer employee,

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Speaker 2: and so we did three months in tents. Then we

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Speaker 2: had twelve months probation before you got confirmed. My probation

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Speaker 2: and period in uniform was at Flemington with the L

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Speaker 2: thirty two division, which was Flemington, Auburn, Lincoln. You know, again, etchy,

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Speaker 2: typical uniform career. We're working at the markets, traffic domestics,

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Speaker 2: and domestics is clearly a current issue and they were

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Speaker 2: a current issue back then. So times haven't changed.

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Speaker 1: It's sad saying things haven't changed.

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Speaker 2: So look, and then I joined the police and I

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Speaker 2: was under the I suppose my plan was to do

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Speaker 2: a couple of years in uniform study law, have a

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Speaker 2: go at going to through the prosecutors and pursuing that path.

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Speaker 2: But in our part of our training program is that

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Speaker 2: you've got to do two weeks in each of the

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Speaker 2: units with that highway licensing, all those things and I

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Speaker 2: got to spend two weeks in the detective's office and

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Speaker 2: my mentor there was a detective charge my name of

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Speaker 2: Henry Krnaky, a fantastic detective, and I was there and

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Speaker 2: as soon as I walked in the office, my feet

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Speaker 2: didn't hit the ground. In two weeks, I think we

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Speaker 2: had four murders. We were chasing a group of kids,

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Speaker 2: three kids for a grievous bodily harm attack that they

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Speaker 2: inflicted on another a street kid with a sledgehammer in

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Speaker 2: a squad house in Flemington. So we spent three days

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Speaker 2: chasing these kids. Bronson, Blessington, Jamison and that crew were

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Speaker 2: then chasing them all throughout Sydney trying to find them.

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Speaker 2: And then we get a call one night Henry rings

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Speaker 2: Mountain says that we've got our crooks at Penrith. So

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Speaker 2: we drive out there. On the way out to the

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Speaker 2: driver discussing what the interview process will be and what

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Speaker 2: we'll interview them. We get to Penrith police station and

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Speaker 2: Henry speaks to his brother, Dick Cornacky. They have a

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Speaker 2: rather animated conversation. He turns around in his heel and

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Speaker 2: comes back and he says, we're out here they've just

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Speaker 2: fested up to murdering a young girl in a paddock,

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Speaker 2: and we won't get access to them for a while,

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Speaker 2: so we left. And that unfortunate young girl was Jenaine Balding,

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Speaker 2: so terrible. It was a terrible crime, but it just

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Speaker 2: showed I actually got to see how the process worked,

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Speaker 2: fell in love with criminal investigation, fell in love with

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Speaker 2: being a detective, and decided to make that my career.

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Speaker 1: I understand that the way you described it them just

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Speaker 1: thinking through. It's that. And I don't like to say

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Speaker 1: it's a thrill of the chase because it sounds like

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Speaker 1: a game, and we very much know it's not a game.

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Speaker 1: But that hunting. You are actually out there hunting the.

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Speaker 2: We were hunting them. We were trying to get them,

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Speaker 2: and the reason to get them was to stop them

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Speaker 2: because they were on a crime spree. We can incarcerate them,

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Speaker 2: let things cool down, stop crime occurring. And you could

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Speaker 2: see that practically occur. The more you got into investigations,

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Speaker 2: you saw that the majority of crime was always been

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Speaker 2: committed by the minority of criminals. If you got rid

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Speaker 2: of that minority, you reduced crime. And that's a very

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Speaker 2: simple equation, and it stayed pretty constant throughout. So I

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Speaker 2: saw that equation, that.

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Speaker 1: Correlation what you could achieve, what.

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Speaker 2: You could achieve, and you actually could reduce crimes significantly

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Speaker 2: by taking players out.

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Speaker 1: Okay, so it sounds like it was a glob that

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Speaker 1: fitted very well in plain clothes.

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Speaker 2: So yeah. So I did my training Flemington Detectives and

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Speaker 2: at the time we were new South Wales Police in

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Speaker 2: the wake of the Wood Royal Commission was regionalized and

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Speaker 2: Flemington was the home of the Southwest Major Crime Squad.

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Speaker 2: So I got to interact a lot with the guys

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Speaker 2: from Southwest and they would involve us on jobs, giving

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Speaker 2: us great experience and exposure. I did my training there

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Speaker 2: with Flemington, and what I had done, I continued my

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Speaker 2: accountcy studies. So I just finished my accountancy course and

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Speaker 2: an opportunity came for me to go to the fraud Squad.

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Speaker 2: So I went to the fraud Squad for a couple

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Speaker 2: of years and worked there with some very very good

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Speaker 2: operators Terry Jamison, Roam Martin, Georgie McTaggart, Arthur Keatsiannas you

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Speaker 2: know Arthur who went on becoming one of the commanders

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Speaker 2: at State Crime and after a couple of years there

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Speaker 2: an opportunity arose at Northwest Major Crime and that's where

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Speaker 2: our past started to join.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, well that's when we cross paths in the crime squads,

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Speaker 1: but also the tactical policing when we're in the State

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Speaker 1: Protection Support Unit, which is tactical police us through that.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, So in the day, so I went to Northwest

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Speaker 2: and did a range of the squads there, the Kiddies

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Speaker 2: Squad which is a child protection squad, property squad, and

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Speaker 2: then I moved into these stick ups. Armed hold up

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Speaker 2: one of the requirements there because of the nature of

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Speaker 2: the beast. We're dealing with dangerous criminals, armed defenders, you know,

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Speaker 2: on a daily basis. It was a real clever strategy

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Speaker 2: to get those operators trained in tactical policing, the Tactical

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Speaker 2: Support Team or the State Protection Support Unit. And it's

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Speaker 2: through that training that you become proficient at weapons, your

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Speaker 2: your tactical knowledge of things, what is a danger and

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Speaker 2: what isn't. You get a really good understanding of how

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Speaker 2: to do things a lot more safely and efficiently.

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Speaker 1: I felt that it helped us as detectives, even though

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Speaker 1: our role as detectives was investigation wasn't tactical, but when

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Speaker 1: we had the tactical skills, you could help plan, earn

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Speaker 1: effect and the rest or be involved in the arrest

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Speaker 1: and high risk offenders.

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Speaker 2: And that's probably what a lot of listeners don't understand that.

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Speaker 2: As the detective, you prepare all the documents, so you're

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Speaker 2: doing the planning documents, you're doing all the appreciations. So

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Speaker 2: you've got to have an understanding of what their capabilities are.

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Speaker 2: Whether that be a surveillance team, a team of texts

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Speaker 2: that's going to put devices in, or a tactical team.

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Speaker 2: You need to know what their capabilities are, what their

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Speaker 2: limitations are, how they like to work. If they're a

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Speaker 2: happy team, they get your good results. So again it's

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Speaker 2: great exposure, I think for us both.

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Speaker 1: And it was a lot of fun too. Some of

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Speaker 1: those training days were they were intense, but they were fun.

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Speaker 1: And that firing range.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, look, you know, lo Sheennanigan is a lot of fun,

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Speaker 2: but a lot of team development, team bonding and building

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Speaker 2: that team. You know that team camaraderie and look you

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Speaker 2: twenty thirty years later, we're still talking about it and

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Speaker 2: there's a smile on your face. You smile and mind,

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Speaker 2: so it works.

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Speaker 1: It was fun. And look, let's shout out to the

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Speaker 1: tactical police, because often they were misconstrued as you know,

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Speaker 1: the knuckle draggers or whatever, the tough guys in the

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Speaker 1: black overalls. But the amount of training, the pressure was

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Speaker 1: on when you had the job, wasn't it.

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Speaker 2: And aren't they when you get down you speak with

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Speaker 2: them and they talk through their plans. Aren't they articulate

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Speaker 2: and incredibly detailed and professional? They know the game?

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Speaker 1: Dave. I'm glad you say that because people often think

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Speaker 1: detectives are briefing. The best briefings I've been to are

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Speaker 1: the ones that tactical police are running. And it's succinct

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Speaker 1: because you can't make a mistake. If you make a mistake,

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Speaker 1: someone literally might die. And it was good fun when

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Speaker 1: you got a call. When we'd get called out, I

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Speaker 1: thought it was best time in policing because you had

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Speaker 1: the excitement of criminal investigation. But then you get a

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Speaker 1: phone call and some bad, bad guy's got to be arrested,

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Speaker 1: and you jump out the back of a van.

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Speaker 2: And see what the beauty of You know, as a detective,

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Speaker 2: you've got left to clean up the mess. Yes, as

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Speaker 2: a tactical operator. You walked away and you didn't have

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Speaker 2: to do the brief. So it was it was it

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Speaker 2: was the best of both line.

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Speaker 1: I don't know about you, but when my phone would ring,

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Speaker 1: I'd be thinking, I hope it's not a homicide. I

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Speaker 1: hope it's tactical. Tactical, you go out the adrenaline rush,

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Speaker 1: do your job and walk away in the paperwork.

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Speaker 2: Fantastic, great day, great day.

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Speaker 1: It was good. Okay, So what other squads did you

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Speaker 1: work in inj major crime?

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Speaker 2: So so I did the kiddies property and we worked

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Speaker 2: with you know, in the wake. This is prior to

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Speaker 2: the well. This is as the Royal Commission was going on.

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Speaker 2: It was and Northwest was decimated as a result of

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Speaker 2: the raw Commission. Then I went to the stick ups.

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Speaker 2: Then close Small did something interesting that he amalgamated the

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Speaker 2: regions again. So we went from four regions to crime

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Speaker 2: agencies and I was part of the Serious and Violent

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Speaker 2: Violent Offenders unit and there I stuck with stick ups

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Speaker 2: and went to Bagnara and Bagnara was the operation that

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Speaker 2: looked at the time counter jumpers. This is where he

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Speaker 2: had a lot of young offenders. Bank robberies were still

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Speaker 2: the rage and before they had screens putting up, the

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Speaker 2: crooks would enter the banks on mass, jump the counter,

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Speaker 2: overwhelm the staff, take the money and run. Incredibly busy

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Speaker 2: times and interesting dynamic working with you know that cohort,

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Speaker 2: which was a completely different mindset to the traditional stick

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Speaker 2: up guys we were used to working with.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, No, it was interesting times. And when we were

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Speaker 1: brought together as crime agencies. I liken it to imagine

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Speaker 1: four high schools that are all brought together because there

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Speaker 1: was a bit of argie bargie, wasn't it. I was

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Speaker 1: from north region.

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Speaker 2: You were even today I refer to you as north

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Speaker 2: your north. I was Northwest. There's southwest, the south. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: somewhere we didn't meet in the middle. There was the clicks.

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Speaker 2: Look how Clive was able to bring that and Clive

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Speaker 2: is a very brilliant man. Yeah, and the way he

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Speaker 2: could bring that together given the environment that we've just

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Speaker 2: walked out of that New South Wales at that time

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Speaker 2: was considered one of the most corrupt services in the country.

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Speaker 2: He was able to bring us together and set up

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Speaker 2: a really effective agency that stood the test of time.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, full credit to Clive. He was a leader in

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Speaker 1: the truest sense, wasn't he When he was there? There

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Speaker 1: was no mucking round. You knew where you stood. But

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Speaker 1: you're quite right moldling all that together. It could have

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Speaker 1: gone either way, and I forgot how bad it was

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Speaker 1: at the time. We're all shamed by the fact that

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Speaker 1: we're major crime detectives and all that corruption horrendous exposed,

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Speaker 1: and even the way your own organization looked at you. Yeah, uniform,

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Speaker 1: you're a detective, you must be crupted. It was a hard,

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Speaker 1: hard slog.

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Speaker 2: And I remember I went to a course at the

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Speaker 2: Goldman Academy and I bounced a couple of the new

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Speaker 2: recruits and their first question was are you a detective,

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Speaker 2: And in a suit, I said yes, I am. And

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Speaker 2: their response was, we've been instructed not to talk to

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Speaker 2: you because you're corrupt and a bad influence. Now I

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Speaker 2: found that this is my own organization. These are the

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Speaker 2: people that are training the next generation, are instructing our

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Speaker 2: people not to talk to their own people because of,

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Speaker 2: you know, the stink or the smell of corruption. It

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Speaker 2: was disappointing.

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Speaker 1: It was disappointing, but there was there wasn't a lot

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Speaker 1: of us that had the it was still around long

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Speaker 1: time after that that had the experience before it, the

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Speaker 1: Royal Commission, during it and after it, and stayed in

387
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Speaker 1: major crime. And I think it set you up very

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Speaker 1: well for the further police career because you understood where

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Speaker 1: things can go wrong with the corruption. And I think

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Speaker 1: the people like yourself, like myself, that had that experience

391
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Speaker 1: been there before, during and after it bous well for

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Speaker 1: our careers.

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Speaker 2: It did, and it gave us ability to look at

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Speaker 2: consequence and consequence management and perception. And we didn't care

395
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Speaker 2: too much about perception were young young men rawn around,

396
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Speaker 2: but we started to understand the power of perception, what

397
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Speaker 2: things look like to those outside, and how we had

398
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Speaker 2: to manage that better. So it was a great learning curve.

399
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Speaker 2: As tragic as it was, as traumatic as it was,

400
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Speaker 2: it really it put us in a good space.

401
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Speaker 1: And you could see it gave me an understanding of

402
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Speaker 1: how a moral compass and then individual's moral compass can

403
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Speaker 1: slide if you don't keep it, keep it strong, keep

404
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Speaker 1: people pointed in the right direction.

405
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Speaker 2: Exactly right, and that was probably you saw those with

406
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Speaker 2: a strong compass and they could stand alone. Those were

407
00:20:12,040 --> 00:20:14,960
Speaker 2: the weaker compass sort of fell into the fell into

408
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Speaker 2: the wrong crowd.

409
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Speaker 1: Whatever environment they were put in. Okay, another interesting aspect

410
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Speaker 1: of your career. You went to these team, all.

411
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Speaker 2: Yes, so I before I went to his team, or

412
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Speaker 2: I went and joined and this is really interesting. I

413
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Speaker 2: went and joined the Joint Asian Crime Group Talkers Through,

414
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Speaker 2: which is this is a joint body with the AFP,

415
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Speaker 2: the New South Walest Crime Commission and New South Wales

416
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Speaker 2: Police and it was looking at the bulk we've targeted,

417
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Speaker 2: the bulk imputation of heroin from the triads, predominantly from

418
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Speaker 2: the Golden Triangle and the drugs that were coming out

419
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Speaker 2: of China, and we were getting you know, we would

420
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Speaker 2: call them bricks or units or half units, and we

421
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Speaker 2: were a very successful unit. It was run by you know,

422
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Speaker 2: Jeff Owens, Ken Hardiman and a range of other people.

423
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Speaker 2: And it's at that point I understood the benefit of

424
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Speaker 2: joint agencies and tapping into the best of both worlds.

425
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Speaker 2: So I had I had the Commonwealth assets, which was

426
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Speaker 2: both national and international. I had the State assets, and

427
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Speaker 2: then we also had that funny little beast which is

428
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Speaker 2: the New South Walest Crime Commission. And I don't know

429
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Speaker 2: if you've explained much to your listeners what it is.

430
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Speaker 2: But it is a really unique little beast.

431
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Speaker 1: It's come up in a lot of different times that

432
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Speaker 1: we've talked about that I was heavily involved with them

433
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Speaker 1: on certain investigations, so we could describe it as the

434
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Speaker 1: New South Wales Crime Commission. They have coercive powers and

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Speaker 1: powers that we don't have as police. They can call

436
00:21:40,240 --> 00:21:43,720
Speaker 1: people into hearings and they have access to resources that

437
00:21:43,880 --> 00:21:48,280
Speaker 1: police sometimes find very difficult to get hold of. And yeah,

438
00:21:48,560 --> 00:21:50,639
Speaker 1: I think it's a powerful tool to be used in

439
00:21:51,119 --> 00:21:52,000
Speaker 1: the fight against crime.

440
00:21:52,320 --> 00:21:54,399
Speaker 2: It's a fantastic to them, and they also have a

441
00:21:54,440 --> 00:21:56,840
Speaker 2: great intel arm. They've got a big engine in relation

442
00:21:56,920 --> 00:22:00,439
Speaker 2: to intelligence. Now all this enhances an investigation. They're a

443
00:22:00,480 --> 00:22:03,400
Speaker 2: wonderful partner and it's a wonderful asset that New South

444
00:22:03,440 --> 00:22:07,680
Speaker 2: Wales has. I find it strange its success hasn't been

445
00:22:07,720 --> 00:22:11,000
Speaker 2: replicated in the other states because it is a very

446
00:22:11,119 --> 00:22:13,800
Speaker 2: successful organization and has been for twenty thirty years.

447
00:22:13,880 --> 00:22:16,719
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I've definitely got good results and I've used them.

448
00:22:16,720 --> 00:22:19,920
Speaker 1: We've organized crime murders and they've been very beneficial getting

449
00:22:19,960 --> 00:22:24,359
Speaker 1: people in for hearings and different things. Those coercive hearings Okay,

450
00:22:24,400 --> 00:22:27,400
Speaker 1: so you've had that would have boded well for your

451
00:22:27,400 --> 00:22:29,840
Speaker 1: time in counter terrorism. But before we move on to that,

452
00:22:30,280 --> 00:22:32,520
Speaker 1: talk about the role in ease team or because I

453
00:22:32,560 --> 00:22:34,200
Speaker 1: think that's an interesting expect.

454
00:22:33,880 --> 00:22:39,000
Speaker 2: So look, I've been being part of the AFP and

455
00:22:39,200 --> 00:22:43,000
Speaker 2: they were sending and we're having the independence with Team

456
00:22:43,040 --> 00:22:48,520
Speaker 2: more and you know, the Indonesians were slowly moving out.

457
00:22:48,680 --> 00:22:51,560
Speaker 2: We had we had our intervention of so to speak.

458
00:22:52,080 --> 00:22:54,960
Speaker 2: So I've got that exposure. So I put an application

459
00:22:55,080 --> 00:22:58,280
Speaker 2: in and was seconded to the United Nations and I

460
00:22:58,320 --> 00:23:01,320
Speaker 2: went over there as part of the Australian contingent for

461
00:23:01,359 --> 00:23:05,159
Speaker 2: SIF poll. And my job there is I was my

462
00:23:05,280 --> 00:23:08,080
Speaker 2: coursign was Delta three, which meant I was the third

463
00:23:08,119 --> 00:23:10,560
Speaker 2: in charge of Dilly District and my job was to

464
00:23:10,600 --> 00:23:15,720
Speaker 2: manage the security, the enforcement security for the whole of

465
00:23:15,760 --> 00:23:20,119
Speaker 2: the Dilly CBD given that it's a low rise And

466
00:23:20,280 --> 00:23:22,440
Speaker 2: during my time we had the elections, so my job

467
00:23:22,560 --> 00:23:25,280
Speaker 2: was to manage the security of the election process with

468
00:23:26,359 --> 00:23:31,119
Speaker 2: Janana Guzmal and dou A Morel who was the opposition

469
00:23:31,240 --> 00:23:33,760
Speaker 2: or the other party that was part of the presidential elections.

470
00:23:34,240 --> 00:23:37,120
Speaker 2: And then when those elections were done, then my main

471
00:23:37,200 --> 00:23:39,800
Speaker 2: role then was to manage the security arrangements for Dilly

472
00:23:40,160 --> 00:23:45,600
Speaker 2: for the Independence Day celebrations. So dealing with international agencies,

473
00:23:46,119 --> 00:23:50,480
Speaker 2: international law enforcement media in a country that's not your own.

474
00:23:51,560 --> 00:23:55,480
Speaker 2: There were three different distinct languages in Timor. There wasn't

475
00:23:55,520 --> 00:23:58,440
Speaker 2: a common one. It was a challenging place.

476
00:23:58,560 --> 00:24:01,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, the good experience for but yeah, nice to have

477
00:24:01,640 --> 00:24:03,720
Speaker 1: on your resume and life experience.

478
00:24:03,920 --> 00:24:07,440
Speaker 2: And you'll get this. So you don't get it when

479
00:24:07,440 --> 00:24:08,760
Speaker 2: you're the kind of the un you don't get a

480
00:24:08,800 --> 00:24:11,040
Speaker 2: day off. So you work for six months. So you

481
00:24:11,119 --> 00:24:14,160
Speaker 2: come back and you're wrecked. And I remember coming back

482
00:24:14,160 --> 00:24:15,879
Speaker 2: and I stepped foot back in the office and the

483
00:24:15,880 --> 00:24:17,840
Speaker 2: first thing someone said to me, well, now you've been

484
00:24:17,960 --> 00:24:19,720
Speaker 2: now you've come back from your junket, can you get

485
00:24:19,720 --> 00:24:23,160
Speaker 2: to work? And you're difficult, Like yeah, just always the way, Yeah,

486
00:24:23,320 --> 00:24:25,000
Speaker 2: no respect for the hard book.

487
00:24:25,440 --> 00:24:28,439
Speaker 1: That done. Okay, So what year did you decide to

488
00:24:28,440 --> 00:24:29,880
Speaker 1: go down the count of terror past?

489
00:24:29,960 --> 00:24:32,840
Speaker 2: So yeah, So I came back from two more and

490
00:24:32,880 --> 00:24:35,640
Speaker 2: then I worked with and then we worked together again

491
00:24:35,640 --> 00:24:38,280
Speaker 2: in homicide. Yeah, and I was a staff officer staff

492
00:24:38,320 --> 00:24:42,280
Speaker 2: officer to Nick Cawda's and then I'd had a few

493
00:24:42,480 --> 00:24:44,800
Speaker 2: ins and outs of homicide, back of the crime squads

494
00:24:44,840 --> 00:24:47,719
Speaker 2: and everywhere else. So I was Nick staff officer for

495
00:24:47,760 --> 00:24:48,440
Speaker 2: a couple of years.

496
00:24:48,760 --> 00:24:50,440
Speaker 1: One was that I'm just trying to think when Nick

497
00:24:50,520 --> 00:24:51,040
Speaker 1: was there, So.

498
00:24:50,960 --> 00:24:53,480
Speaker 2: That's two thousand and two thousand and two.

499
00:24:53,680 --> 00:24:54,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

500
00:24:54,720 --> 00:24:58,479
Speaker 2: So late two thousand and two an opportunity to come

501
00:24:58,520 --> 00:25:00,960
Speaker 2: up to join the JC too, the Joint counter Terrorism Team.

502
00:25:01,760 --> 00:25:03,800
Speaker 2: That stage, I'd worked three and a half years in

503
00:25:03,880 --> 00:25:06,159
Speaker 2: joint bodies with the FEDS. I was quite comfortable with

504
00:25:06,200 --> 00:25:09,280
Speaker 2: their techniques, their computer systems, and I put in for

505
00:25:09,359 --> 00:25:12,679
Speaker 2: it and went across myself and a guy booked, Steve Ashton.

506
00:25:13,240 --> 00:25:16,840
Speaker 2: I went across and joined, were seconded to the Australian

507
00:25:16,880 --> 00:25:21,240
Speaker 2: Federal Police and were part of the initial JCT. And

508
00:25:21,280 --> 00:25:23,119
Speaker 2: that was the first one in Australia and that was

509
00:25:23,200 --> 00:25:25,440
Speaker 2: established in November two thousand and two.

510
00:25:25,680 --> 00:25:27,359
Speaker 1: Okay, and what was your role there?

511
00:25:27,680 --> 00:25:29,880
Speaker 2: So I was there as a detective sergeant, as an investigator.

512
00:25:30,840 --> 00:25:34,200
Speaker 2: So my job again bringing the best of both worlds.

513
00:25:34,240 --> 00:25:38,399
Speaker 2: I was operating in a Commonwealth environment, but I brought

514
00:25:38,480 --> 00:25:41,920
Speaker 2: State assets. Now at the same time we'd set up

515
00:25:42,040 --> 00:25:45,320
Speaker 2: a CT unit. Given the wake of nine to eleven

516
00:25:45,520 --> 00:25:48,240
Speaker 2: and the Barley won attacks in October two thousand and two.

517
00:25:48,760 --> 00:25:50,800
Speaker 2: New South Wales Police then invested and set up his

518
00:25:50,840 --> 00:25:53,879
Speaker 2: own CT command. So we had the JCT which was

519
00:25:53,960 --> 00:25:56,800
Speaker 2: primarily a vehicle for the Australian Federal Police, and the

520
00:25:56,800 --> 00:25:58,800
Speaker 2: New South Wales Police had its own command and I

521
00:25:58,960 --> 00:26:01,920
Speaker 2: was the go to on between Trendy South Wales and

522
00:26:02,000 --> 00:26:02,439
Speaker 2: the FEDS.

523
00:26:02,640 --> 00:26:05,040
Speaker 1: And a lot of it is about feeding that information

524
00:26:05,160 --> 00:26:07,600
Speaker 1: backwards and forwards, and a lot of it's protected information,

525
00:26:07,720 --> 00:26:10,280
Speaker 1: that type of thing, So it's a tricky thing to

526
00:26:10,359 --> 00:26:11,480
Speaker 1: navigate through. Yeah.

527
00:26:11,560 --> 00:26:13,840
Speaker 2: So look, so I go there and what we do

528
00:26:13,920 --> 00:26:16,160
Speaker 2: is we do reactive investigations. We're very good at that.

529
00:26:16,200 --> 00:26:20,000
Speaker 2: The crime curse, it gets reported, we investigate. I've landed

530
00:26:20,000 --> 00:26:22,760
Speaker 2: in this team that no one knows anyone, no one

531
00:26:22,840 --> 00:26:25,240
Speaker 2: knows anyone does, and I'm told to actually stop the

532
00:26:25,240 --> 00:26:27,879
Speaker 2: crime before it occurs, a proactive approach.

533
00:26:27,680 --> 00:26:30,440
Speaker 1: Which is not something that we're trained up with not to.

534
00:26:30,640 --> 00:26:32,720
Speaker 2: So this is a real This is a big learning

535
00:26:32,760 --> 00:26:34,359
Speaker 2: curve that we actually got. How do we stop a

536
00:26:34,400 --> 00:26:37,720
Speaker 2: crime before it occurs? I think the best analogy is

537
00:26:38,080 --> 00:26:41,679
Speaker 2: if anyone's seen Tom Cruise in Minority Report, it's like

538
00:26:41,760 --> 00:26:44,280
Speaker 2: that stop the crime before it occurs, so we had

539
00:26:44,320 --> 00:26:45,639
Speaker 2: to build, we had to figure out how we're going

540
00:26:45,680 --> 00:26:45,920
Speaker 2: to do it.

541
00:26:46,000 --> 00:26:47,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, and it is a different approach, and I want

542
00:26:47,960 --> 00:26:51,119
Speaker 1: to break that down. But let's before we get into that,

543
00:26:51,200 --> 00:26:53,560
Speaker 1: let's just dissect your book because, as I said, the

544
00:26:53,600 --> 00:26:56,360
Speaker 1: Principles of counter Terrorism Process a guide for the New

545
00:26:56,400 --> 00:26:59,879
Speaker 1: Guard of counter terrorism professionals. Now, the forward in the

546
00:27:00,000 --> 00:27:03,080
Speaker 1: book was written by our good friend Nick Kaldos, which

547
00:27:03,160 --> 00:27:06,160
Speaker 1: is and utmost respect for Nick. He's been a guest

548
00:27:06,200 --> 00:27:09,280
Speaker 1: on Eye Catch Killers and I quite often refer to

549
00:27:09,359 --> 00:27:11,480
Speaker 1: him as one of the most experienced police officers or

550
00:27:11,520 --> 00:27:13,560
Speaker 1: law enforcement officers in the world. And I don't think

551
00:27:13,600 --> 00:27:15,560
Speaker 1: it's overstating it some of the stuff that he's done.

552
00:27:15,840 --> 00:27:18,879
Speaker 2: And like say, from my perspective, Nick was one of

553
00:27:18,920 --> 00:27:24,560
Speaker 2: my original mentors in CT. Nick is from an Arabic background.

554
00:27:24,880 --> 00:27:27,600
Speaker 2: He gets it really well and has been immersed in

555
00:27:27,680 --> 00:27:30,680
Speaker 2: that part of policing for quite a while. So I'd

556
00:27:30,680 --> 00:27:32,600
Speaker 2: spent a lot of time chewing his ear trying to

557
00:27:32,600 --> 00:27:34,880
Speaker 2: figure things out and bouncing ideas off him.

558
00:27:35,040 --> 00:27:39,200
Speaker 1: Well, you've got the right person to do the forward

559
00:27:39,280 --> 00:27:41,800
Speaker 1: in the book, because he speaks very highly in the

560
00:27:41,800 --> 00:27:44,600
Speaker 1: book and accounts for something when someone like Nick Koaldos

561
00:27:44,760 --> 00:27:46,760
Speaker 1: is doing that. But he made a couple of points.

562
00:27:46,800 --> 00:27:49,040
Speaker 1: Because we're talking here now, we're going to take you

563
00:27:49,080 --> 00:27:51,360
Speaker 1: into the world of counter terrorism. We want to get

564
00:27:51,400 --> 00:27:54,480
Speaker 1: your credentials up here. This is how Nick broke it down.

565
00:27:54,520 --> 00:27:57,440
Speaker 1: That pointed out that you bought three points that make

566
00:27:57,480 --> 00:28:00,600
Speaker 1: your thoughts on terrorism significant. And the first point bean

567
00:28:00,680 --> 00:28:04,040
Speaker 1: that you have decades of investigation experience in the world

568
00:28:04,080 --> 00:28:08,120
Speaker 1: of terrorism prior to the book. You also spent many

569
00:28:08,200 --> 00:28:11,400
Speaker 1: years in major crime investigations, so you understood law enforcement

570
00:28:11,400 --> 00:28:14,879
Speaker 1: and policing, and you're an academic achievement which allows you

571
00:28:14,920 --> 00:28:18,080
Speaker 1: to pull all these strings together in a logical, structured construct.

572
00:28:18,600 --> 00:28:23,760
Speaker 1: So lovely, I can hear I can hear Nick Knick's

573
00:28:23,800 --> 00:28:27,080
Speaker 1: voice coming out of that. But I think that does

574
00:28:27,280 --> 00:28:30,119
Speaker 1: bring a uniqueness to what you can talk about in

575
00:28:30,359 --> 00:28:33,080
Speaker 1: counter terrorism. And let's breaking it down. You've worked in

576
00:28:33,119 --> 00:28:35,720
Speaker 1: counter terrorism, so it's not watching from the sidelines. You've

577
00:28:35,720 --> 00:28:38,000
Speaker 1: been involved. You've been involved in the operations of the

578
00:28:38,040 --> 00:28:41,880
Speaker 1: stopping terrorism, arrests of terrorists for a terrorist related defenses.

579
00:28:42,320 --> 00:28:45,040
Speaker 1: You've also spent time as a major crime investigator, so

580
00:28:45,120 --> 00:28:48,000
Speaker 1: you understand law enforcement, what can be done, what can't

581
00:28:48,040 --> 00:28:51,080
Speaker 1: be done? And why am I calling your doctor talk

582
00:28:51,160 --> 00:28:52,680
Speaker 1: us about your academic qualification.

583
00:28:53,040 --> 00:28:58,080
Speaker 2: So funny enough. Look, I got into the j CT

584
00:28:58,920 --> 00:29:02,000
Speaker 2: and film my feet. I think we kicked the ball

585
00:29:02,000 --> 00:29:05,720
Speaker 2: off with Zachie Meller. We then did Operation Newport, which

586
00:29:05,840 --> 00:29:08,600
Speaker 2: was Bridget, Willy Bridget for him, Lottie.

587
00:29:09,240 --> 00:29:11,760
Speaker 1: Break down a couple of those, so people understand. Yeah.

588
00:29:11,800 --> 00:29:17,680
Speaker 2: So Zachie Miller early two thousand and three was again

589
00:29:18,040 --> 00:29:21,440
Speaker 2: very very much aligned to what's happened today, had an

590
00:29:21,480 --> 00:29:25,200
Speaker 2: issue with the treatment of the Palestinians. He was interviewed

591
00:29:25,200 --> 00:29:27,520
Speaker 2: by a particular meter outlet where he said that he

592
00:29:27,920 --> 00:29:30,400
Speaker 2: was desirous to go to Palestine to become a suicide bomber.

593
00:29:31,280 --> 00:29:34,040
Speaker 2: So that got the So that was our start, okay,

594
00:29:34,040 --> 00:29:37,840
Speaker 2: so now we're starting to get it. Then, you know,

595
00:29:37,840 --> 00:29:39,680
Speaker 2: a couple of months later, we get information from the

596
00:29:39,680 --> 00:29:42,440
Speaker 2: French that there's a French national in town, which was

597
00:29:42,520 --> 00:29:45,400
Speaker 2: Willy Bridget, and that he has come in under the

598
00:29:45,440 --> 00:29:48,320
Speaker 2: guise of the Rugby World Cup and that he is

599
00:29:48,360 --> 00:29:51,400
Speaker 2: going to do something significant on his birthday. Well, his

600
00:29:51,520 --> 00:29:55,200
Speaker 2: birthday coincided with the opening ceremony of the World Cup.

601
00:29:55,560 --> 00:29:59,640
Speaker 2: So we're chasing literally a person that's changed their name.

602
00:29:59,680 --> 00:30:03,440
Speaker 2: That so when we talk about terrorism, they apply organized

603
00:30:03,480 --> 00:30:05,840
Speaker 2: crime trade craft, so they change the name, they use

604
00:30:05,920 --> 00:30:08,960
Speaker 2: fake vanes, they hide their identity. Well, will he changed

605
00:30:09,000 --> 00:30:12,239
Speaker 2: his name. He was acting under an assumed name, and

606
00:30:12,280 --> 00:30:17,080
Speaker 2: we're scouring Sydney trying to find him. Now, fortunously, one

607
00:30:17,120 --> 00:30:20,640
Speaker 2: of our surveillance team left the office, walked two blocks

608
00:30:20,760 --> 00:30:23,320
Speaker 2: down the road, was having a cup of tea in

609
00:30:23,360 --> 00:30:25,680
Speaker 2: a coffee shop and was served by none other than

610
00:30:25,720 --> 00:30:29,360
Speaker 2: Willi Bridget. So here we go. We've got this terrorist

611
00:30:29,400 --> 00:30:31,840
Speaker 2: and the whole world is looking for him. He's in

612
00:30:31,880 --> 00:30:36,120
Speaker 2: a coffee shop around the corner. Now he's working. Now, interestingly,

613
00:30:36,160 --> 00:30:37,720
Speaker 2: this is where we get to use both sides of

614
00:30:37,720 --> 00:30:40,360
Speaker 2: the coin. He's on a tourist visa and he's working.

615
00:30:40,600 --> 00:30:43,560
Speaker 2: So whilst we the French have given us high side.

616
00:30:43,640 --> 00:30:46,000
Speaker 2: That's top secret information, but we can't use in evidence.

617
00:30:46,400 --> 00:30:49,120
Speaker 2: So we know we've got a threat, we can't use it.

618
00:30:49,280 --> 00:30:51,480
Speaker 2: So what can we do. Well, here he's on a visa.

619
00:30:52,200 --> 00:30:55,480
Speaker 2: He's working. Quantry to his visa, so we detained him

620
00:30:55,760 --> 00:30:58,720
Speaker 2: under that and then had him deport it. He goes

621
00:30:58,760 --> 00:31:01,800
Speaker 2: back to France and within makes full admissions to the

622
00:31:01,800 --> 00:31:04,720
Speaker 2: French authorities about his intentions to undertake a terrorist act

623
00:31:04,880 --> 00:31:07,360
Speaker 2: in Australia on behalf of a terrorist coup called Laska

624
00:31:07,400 --> 00:31:11,200
Speaker 2: el Taiber l T, which is a Pakistani based terrorist organization,

625
00:31:11,840 --> 00:31:14,640
Speaker 2: and he then nominated that the leader of l T

626
00:31:15,200 --> 00:31:17,880
Speaker 2: in Australia was a person called for Hem Lotting, and

627
00:31:17,880 --> 00:31:20,000
Speaker 2: then of course we then kick off an investigation into

628
00:31:20,000 --> 00:31:23,760
Speaker 2: for Hem Lotting. Now, at that stage, as per most

629
00:31:24,120 --> 00:31:28,719
Speaker 2: CT investigations, information gets leaked and in the middle of investigation,

630
00:31:29,600 --> 00:31:31,640
Speaker 2: I think lot appeared on the front page of the

631
00:31:31,680 --> 00:31:34,920
Speaker 2: Telegraph and other papers of this under the guise of

632
00:31:35,400 --> 00:31:39,840
Speaker 2: is this guy a terrorist, etc. Etc. Well, here we're thinking, right, well,

633
00:31:39,960 --> 00:31:42,840
Speaker 2: this brief's gone, he'll go to ground. Complete opposite, he

634
00:31:42,920 --> 00:31:46,800
Speaker 2: actually sped up, so his preparations continued and it continued.

635
00:31:46,920 --> 00:31:49,719
Speaker 2: So in light of that, we started doing search warrants.

636
00:31:49,760 --> 00:31:52,360
Speaker 2: We did those with because of the nature information we

637
00:31:52,360 --> 00:31:56,040
Speaker 2: did ajo search warrants, which is unique from an evidentary perspective,

638
00:31:56,080 --> 00:32:00,120
Speaker 2: because to get that into evidence is a real complex task.

639
00:32:01,040 --> 00:32:05,280
Speaker 2: We obtained some fantastic evidence, incriminating evidence during search warrants,

640
00:32:06,120 --> 00:32:10,320
Speaker 2: and we will be able to convict Lottie for preparing

641
00:32:10,360 --> 00:32:13,520
Speaker 2: to do a terrorist act in Australia. And I was

642
00:32:13,560 --> 00:32:15,960
Speaker 2: fortunate enough to go to France on the advisor. I

643
00:32:16,000 --> 00:32:19,440
Speaker 2: was going to give evidence for Bridget in France. Now,

644
00:32:20,120 --> 00:32:22,400
Speaker 2: the French have a different legal system and they have

645
00:32:22,520 --> 00:32:26,880
Speaker 2: inquisitorial system. So had we used the Westminster system, we

646
00:32:26,880 --> 00:32:29,840
Speaker 2: wouldn't have had enough to convict Bridget, but under the

647
00:32:29,880 --> 00:32:34,240
Speaker 2: inquisitorial system, the French could. Here's an important point, Gary,

648
00:32:34,280 --> 00:32:35,800
Speaker 2: what's the first thing you do when you walk into

649
00:32:35,800 --> 00:32:41,600
Speaker 2: a court of law? First thing you do the accept

650
00:32:41,600 --> 00:32:42,120
Speaker 2: of practices?

651
00:32:42,160 --> 00:32:42,480
Speaker 1: You bow?

652
00:32:42,800 --> 00:32:44,880
Speaker 2: Well, what did the French do to their royal family,

653
00:32:44,920 --> 00:32:45,400
Speaker 2: their crown?

654
00:32:45,840 --> 00:32:46,320
Speaker 1: What they do?

655
00:32:46,400 --> 00:32:48,959
Speaker 2: They cut their heads off in the French Revolution, So

656
00:32:49,120 --> 00:32:54,080
Speaker 2: it is a faux part to bow to judge. So

657
00:32:54,360 --> 00:32:57,160
Speaker 2: here i am back walking to court and I'm with

658
00:32:57,200 --> 00:33:00,320
Speaker 2: an AFP agent and they said you're I'm not going

659
00:33:00,360 --> 00:33:02,600
Speaker 2: to bow, are you? Of course I am. And they've

660
00:33:02,600 --> 00:33:05,200
Speaker 2: got the whole history listening about now off with their heads.

661
00:33:05,320 --> 00:33:07,840
Speaker 2: We don't bow. So again, okay, interesting third path.

662
00:33:07,880 --> 00:33:10,880
Speaker 1: I've always I wonder just the sideline here for a

663
00:33:10,920 --> 00:33:15,160
Speaker 1: sec inquisitorial adversarial Which do you think serves the community.

664
00:33:14,680 --> 00:33:17,600
Speaker 2: The best inquisitorial, So we got to the facts. So

665
00:33:17,960 --> 00:33:20,160
Speaker 2: what it was They determined the facts. So an independent

666
00:33:20,200 --> 00:33:24,960
Speaker 2: investigating judge determines the facts. Then we argue the case

667
00:33:25,120 --> 00:33:28,760
Speaker 2: on the facts, not opinion, not you know, the pros

668
00:33:28,760 --> 00:33:31,520
Speaker 2: and cons. The facts is what is argued, and it's

669
00:33:31,560 --> 00:33:34,360
Speaker 2: a shorter process, and it's a more accurate process and

670
00:33:34,960 --> 00:33:35,400
Speaker 2: far more.

671
00:33:35,320 --> 00:33:38,760
Speaker 1: Efficiency in the most basic terms. I made a career

672
00:33:38,840 --> 00:33:42,240
Speaker 1: when I was doing my degree writing about inquisitorial versus

673
00:33:42,240 --> 00:33:45,480
Speaker 1: adversarial and I always thought that was unusual that when

674
00:33:45,520 --> 00:33:47,120
Speaker 1: you want to get to the bottom of something, you

675
00:33:47,320 --> 00:33:50,680
Speaker 1: have a royal commission that has inquisitorial powers to find

676
00:33:50,680 --> 00:33:51,200
Speaker 1: out the truth.

677
00:33:51,200 --> 00:33:52,120
Speaker 2: That's exactly what we do.

678
00:33:52,320 --> 00:33:54,479
Speaker 1: And then we've got the adversarial system, which is all

679
00:33:54,520 --> 00:33:56,760
Speaker 1: about guilt or innocent but we don't really want to

680
00:33:56,760 --> 00:33:58,040
Speaker 1: find we don't get to the truth.

681
00:33:58,200 --> 00:34:00,920
Speaker 2: And you know, and then the same vein why does

682
00:34:00,960 --> 00:34:03,280
Speaker 2: the current I have an inquisitorial system because we want

683
00:34:03,320 --> 00:34:05,240
Speaker 2: to find out the truth of how people have died,

684
00:34:05,480 --> 00:34:08,799
Speaker 2: Yet in our legal system it's innocence or guilt as

685
00:34:08,840 --> 00:34:09,640
Speaker 2: opposed to truth.

686
00:34:10,600 --> 00:34:13,239
Speaker 1: I've struggled with it. I know you need those checks

687
00:34:13,239 --> 00:34:16,320
Speaker 1: and balances, but I've struggled with that simple concept. You

688
00:34:16,400 --> 00:34:18,480
Speaker 1: mentioned an interesting point there, and it came up when

689
00:34:18,480 --> 00:34:20,839
Speaker 1: I was speaking to Peter Moroni just a couple of

690
00:34:20,840 --> 00:34:23,640
Speaker 1: weeks ago about terrorists, and you worked with him on

691
00:34:23,760 --> 00:34:26,480
Speaker 1: the Pandemics, which was a huge operation, and Peter told

692
00:34:26,560 --> 00:34:28,640
Speaker 1: us through that what you guys are, what you guys

693
00:34:28,680 --> 00:34:33,120
Speaker 1: went through. But when terrorists as to sink from other crooks,

694
00:34:33,200 --> 00:34:35,400
Speaker 1: the usual crooks we chase if they know where after him,

695
00:34:35,440 --> 00:34:38,560
Speaker 1: they go the ground. But with terrorists that their motivation

696
00:34:38,719 --> 00:34:41,120
Speaker 1: is completely different. That you've got to change your mindset

697
00:34:41,160 --> 00:34:42,040
Speaker 1: as an investigator.

698
00:34:42,200 --> 00:34:46,200
Speaker 2: So that was an anomaly. If I use I'll use

699
00:34:47,719 --> 00:34:49,839
Speaker 2: a parlent. So if I was in the stick ups

700
00:34:50,600 --> 00:34:53,319
Speaker 2: the hold up squad, and if a fender was going

701
00:34:53,320 --> 00:34:56,160
Speaker 2: to rob a bank, what would be the easiest thing

702
00:34:56,200 --> 00:34:57,839
Speaker 2: to do is to put a police car in front

703
00:34:57,840 --> 00:35:00,000
Speaker 2: of the bank. The robber would rock up, he would

704
00:35:00,040 --> 00:35:02,640
Speaker 2: see there's a police car. He doesn't want to get caught,

705
00:35:02,719 --> 00:35:05,840
Speaker 2: so he walks away. We stop the crime. In this instance,

706
00:35:06,000 --> 00:35:09,040
Speaker 2: if it was a terrorist, they would jump that police

707
00:35:09,040 --> 00:35:11,520
Speaker 2: car would simply be an obstacle, and then they would

708
00:35:11,640 --> 00:35:13,279
Speaker 2: go over the police car go on the bank to

709
00:35:13,320 --> 00:35:15,040
Speaker 2: do the job. So we looked at that and we

710
00:35:15,120 --> 00:35:17,960
Speaker 2: kept seeing this anomaly occur. So that was in Newport,

711
00:35:18,200 --> 00:35:21,120
Speaker 2: it was in Pandanas, we saw it in Allneath and

712
00:35:21,160 --> 00:35:23,640
Speaker 2: all these other jobs. So we looked and we researched that.

713
00:35:23,719 --> 00:35:26,759
Speaker 2: And what that comes down to is that it comes

714
00:35:26,760 --> 00:35:30,319
Speaker 2: down to the motivation. So most crooks that we investigate

715
00:35:30,560 --> 00:35:35,400
Speaker 2: in a reactive sense are extrinsically motivated carrot or the stick.

716
00:35:35,480 --> 00:35:38,440
Speaker 2: I rob someone to get money, or I don't do something,

717
00:35:38,600 --> 00:35:40,640
Speaker 2: or I do something to avoid being caught and going

718
00:35:40,640 --> 00:35:44,080
Speaker 2: to jail the stick. What we find with terrorists is

719
00:35:44,080 --> 00:35:48,200
Speaker 2: that they're internally motivated, intrinsically motivated, so it's part of

720
00:35:48,239 --> 00:35:51,440
Speaker 2: their personality, their identity identify as it and those that

721
00:35:51,520 --> 00:35:55,120
Speaker 2: are religious, political, iological this is an internal drive into

722
00:35:55,160 --> 00:35:58,920
Speaker 2: stronger form of motivation. So when we identify that that

723
00:35:59,000 --> 00:36:02,280
Speaker 2: it makes stopping terrorists more challenging.

724
00:36:02,040 --> 00:36:04,319
Speaker 1: And you've got to change. You have to know the

725
00:36:04,320 --> 00:36:07,439
Speaker 1: person you're chasing, the person that you're working, and you'd

726
00:36:07,480 --> 00:36:10,439
Speaker 1: have to change your mindset to that having looked at that,

727
00:36:10,440 --> 00:36:13,120
Speaker 1: that this is what's motivating them, that's completely different to

728
00:36:13,160 --> 00:36:15,319
Speaker 1: what the normal crook is that we chase.

729
00:36:15,400 --> 00:36:17,520
Speaker 2: So so then when you're looking at strategies and you

730
00:36:17,600 --> 00:36:20,520
Speaker 2: take this phenomenon into account, you then have got to

731
00:36:20,560 --> 00:36:22,960
Speaker 2: manage that and that becomes awkward because cops are used

732
00:36:23,000 --> 00:36:25,280
Speaker 2: to we'll just put up roadblocks, We'll.

733
00:36:25,160 --> 00:36:28,520
Speaker 1: Just that literally scare them away, which it doesn't.

734
00:36:28,880 --> 00:36:31,200
Speaker 2: So there's a bit of a nest there, and that's

735
00:36:31,200 --> 00:36:33,879
Speaker 2: where the talent in the CT operator comes in. They

736
00:36:33,920 --> 00:36:36,759
Speaker 2: look at opportunities of how they can manage them and

737
00:36:36,840 --> 00:36:40,160
Speaker 2: keep them under control. Keep the pot boiling without it

738
00:36:40,200 --> 00:36:43,600
Speaker 2: boiling over on the staff is an analogy that we used.

739
00:36:43,560 --> 00:36:45,960
Speaker 1: And it's a tough one day, but it really is.

740
00:36:46,360 --> 00:36:49,160
Speaker 1: So Okay, we've got your credentials and we've got a

741
00:36:49,160 --> 00:36:51,279
Speaker 1: bit of understanding. Now I'm going to dissect some of

742
00:36:51,320 --> 00:36:55,600
Speaker 1: the stuff that I've picked up in the book. I've

743
00:36:55,640 --> 00:37:00,640
Speaker 1: got four headings, Identify, disrupt, risk, and threat. Yeah, break

744
00:37:00,640 --> 00:37:03,800
Speaker 1: them down. So identify How do you identify a terrorist?

745
00:37:03,920 --> 00:37:05,959
Speaker 1: Like if I'm walking around going I hate the world,

746
00:37:06,000 --> 00:37:07,600
Speaker 1: I'm going to do this, I'm going to do that,

747
00:37:08,280 --> 00:37:10,160
Speaker 1: what sort of what do you look at the threats?

748
00:37:10,200 --> 00:37:12,480
Speaker 1: Because that's just me probably blowing off steam with no

749
00:37:12,719 --> 00:37:16,440
Speaker 1: it's yeah, it's an anger, but there's no yeah, action

750
00:37:16,560 --> 00:37:17,480
Speaker 1: to my thoughts.

751
00:37:17,600 --> 00:37:21,360
Speaker 2: So I'll go back a step. So we look so

752
00:37:21,640 --> 00:37:23,520
Speaker 2: to identify a terrorists, we have to look at a

753
00:37:23,560 --> 00:37:24,839
Speaker 2: concept called radicalization.

754
00:37:25,120 --> 00:37:25,480
Speaker 1: Okay.

755
00:37:25,560 --> 00:37:28,759
Speaker 2: Now, traditionally what we do is we look at radicalization

756
00:37:28,840 --> 00:37:31,839
Speaker 2: as one dimensional. That person is radicalized. There was only

757
00:37:31,880 --> 00:37:37,000
Speaker 2: one form. Then we had the link cafes yes, and

758
00:37:37,040 --> 00:37:40,760
Speaker 2: I was task after lint to make a determination whether

759
00:37:40,920 --> 00:37:45,720
Speaker 2: Monus was radicalized. Now, when we looked at our lists

760
00:37:45,719 --> 00:37:49,279
Speaker 2: of indicators, minus didn't hit any of them. Out of

761
00:37:49,280 --> 00:37:53,640
Speaker 2: our thirty forty indicators hit one or two. Yet if

762
00:37:53,680 --> 00:37:55,759
Speaker 2: I apply the pub test, there's a guy with a

763
00:37:56,800 --> 00:37:59,200
Speaker 2: religious flag. He says he's doing it in the name

764
00:37:59,440 --> 00:38:02,880
Speaker 2: of an ideology of religious ideology, and he commits violence

765
00:38:02,880 --> 00:38:06,120
Speaker 2: to further ideology. It's a terrorist act. So we had

766
00:38:06,120 --> 00:38:08,520
Speaker 2: to look at that and it dawned that radicalization is

767
00:38:08,520 --> 00:38:12,800
Speaker 2: at one dimensional. It's multi dimensional. We've identified five separate

768
00:38:12,840 --> 00:38:16,160
Speaker 2: strands of radicalization. Now this is important breakthrough. So it's

769
00:38:16,200 --> 00:38:19,600
Speaker 2: like when someone says you're sick, well, the first question

770
00:38:19,680 --> 00:38:21,719
Speaker 2: you ask is, well, what are you suffering from? And

771
00:38:21,760 --> 00:38:24,680
Speaker 2: your symptoms will be different from symptoms of another injury,

772
00:38:24,680 --> 00:38:27,000
Speaker 2: i e. If you've got a flu, your symptoms will

773
00:38:27,040 --> 00:38:29,799
Speaker 2: be different someone who's suffering from cancer, those symptoms be

774
00:38:29,800 --> 00:38:33,560
Speaker 2: different from someone suffering from a heart attack or heart condition. Conversely,

775
00:38:33,640 --> 00:38:36,799
Speaker 2: the treatments are different, the triggers are different. So what

776
00:38:36,840 --> 00:38:40,839
Speaker 2: we found out there's five separate strands. They're are indicators.

777
00:38:40,960 --> 00:38:45,520
Speaker 2: So what we do, Unfortunately today's environment, there's a single

778
00:38:45,520 --> 00:38:47,840
Speaker 2: list of indicators. Well, we now know that that is

779
00:38:47,840 --> 00:38:50,399
Speaker 2: in that that's not accurate. There should be five, maybe

780
00:38:50,400 --> 00:38:53,480
Speaker 2: even six separates, and you identify the strand, you then

781
00:38:53,520 --> 00:38:55,440
Speaker 2: apply the indicator, and that's what we look for. We

782
00:38:55,520 --> 00:38:58,080
Speaker 2: look for what those indicators are. We look at how

783
00:38:58,120 --> 00:39:01,759
Speaker 2: that works, how they interact, the knowledge, what they know,

784
00:39:02,640 --> 00:39:05,799
Speaker 2: what they expouse, how they dress, how they look, who

785
00:39:05,880 --> 00:39:09,239
Speaker 2: they associate with. All those will give us a really

786
00:39:09,360 --> 00:39:12,480
Speaker 2: rich insight is to what strand of radicalization they're suffering

787
00:39:12,480 --> 00:39:14,680
Speaker 2: from and where they are in the process. So the

788
00:39:14,719 --> 00:39:18,000
Speaker 2: model I work on is we first start with a belief.

789
00:39:18,120 --> 00:39:20,200
Speaker 2: So that belief could be anything. It's a generic belief

790
00:39:20,560 --> 00:39:24,760
Speaker 2: I want to save koalas I have an interpretation of Catholicism,

791
00:39:25,560 --> 00:39:28,560
Speaker 2: we will have a belief. Then it goes to is

792
00:39:28,600 --> 00:39:32,080
Speaker 2: that belief moderate or extreme? Now the test, what's the

793
00:39:32,120 --> 00:39:36,759
Speaker 2: test for extreme. Well, if their belief promotes acts of

794
00:39:36,800 --> 00:39:40,880
Speaker 2: criminality or violence, then their criminal offenses and that outside

795
00:39:40,920 --> 00:39:44,400
Speaker 2: them accept the normal parameters of society. If you're outside

796
00:39:44,400 --> 00:39:46,800
Speaker 2: though normal parameters, that's an extreme belief.

797
00:39:46,920 --> 00:39:50,239
Speaker 1: Okay, So the belief crosses that line when they're going to.

798
00:39:50,480 --> 00:39:52,919
Speaker 2: So when their belief. So anyone can.

799
00:39:52,840 --> 00:39:54,920
Speaker 1: Have a belief and it's not illegal.

800
00:39:55,640 --> 00:39:59,280
Speaker 2: But if your belief promotes the use of violence or criminality,

801
00:39:59,320 --> 00:40:02,640
Speaker 2: to forward that belo because that's outside the normal parameters

802
00:40:02,640 --> 00:40:06,200
Speaker 2: of society, we say that's extreme. Now, once you've got

803
00:40:06,239 --> 00:40:09,440
Speaker 2: an extreme belief, then you start the radicalization process. And

804
00:40:09,440 --> 00:40:13,840
Speaker 2: the radicalization is when you start the process of turning

805
00:40:13,920 --> 00:40:19,480
Speaker 2: those beliefs into tangible actions, where that be funding membership

806
00:40:19,520 --> 00:40:23,719
Speaker 2: of a terrorist organization, operational support, or doing the terrorist act.

807
00:40:24,080 --> 00:40:27,520
Speaker 2: So what for me if you would have said to

808
00:40:27,560 --> 00:40:31,040
Speaker 2: me a person is radicalized, to me, you're saying they're

809
00:40:31,040 --> 00:40:34,400
Speaker 2: a terrorist if they simply support a belief I e.

810
00:40:34,600 --> 00:40:36,759
Speaker 2: I think bin Laden was a good man and I

811
00:40:36,920 --> 00:40:40,120
Speaker 2: support the horrendous actually did on nine to eleven. Well,

812
00:40:40,160 --> 00:40:42,520
Speaker 2: that's an extreme ideology because he committed a criminal offense

813
00:40:42,600 --> 00:40:43,840
Speaker 2: is killing three thousand people.

814
00:40:44,120 --> 00:40:47,400
Speaker 1: That's the ideology as distinct from radicalization.

815
00:40:47,520 --> 00:40:52,919
Speaker 2: Yes, so these are processes that human based every human.

816
00:40:52,960 --> 00:40:57,040
Speaker 2: It's a trait, that's a human trait. So we look

817
00:40:57,040 --> 00:41:00,879
Speaker 2: at extreme extreme beliefs and then we go and radicalization.

818
00:41:01,160 --> 00:41:02,719
Speaker 2: So if you're doing something in the name of a

819
00:41:02,760 --> 00:41:06,480
Speaker 2: religion or a belief in our community, we accept that

820
00:41:06,520 --> 00:41:08,600
Speaker 2: as an act of terrorism and that's a definition under

821
00:41:08,600 --> 00:41:09,720
Speaker 2: the criminal Codect.

822
00:41:09,800 --> 00:41:13,120
Speaker 1: Okay, hey guys, have you ever wondered what goes on

823
00:41:13,200 --> 00:41:15,799
Speaker 1: behind the headlines of a gang war or shooting? Then

824
00:41:15,840 --> 00:41:18,960
Speaker 1: you need to listen to crim City. Join crime reporters

825
00:41:19,000 --> 00:41:22,160
Speaker 1: Mark Murray and Josh Hamrahan as they uncover the details

826
00:41:22,200 --> 00:41:25,400
Speaker 1: of crimes unfolding on Sydney's streets and share the stories

827
00:41:25,400 --> 00:41:28,040
Speaker 1: that don't make the papers. The latest season of crim

828
00:41:28,080 --> 00:41:30,920
Speaker 1: City is out now. Listen early and ad free on

829
00:41:31,000 --> 00:41:35,440
Speaker 1: Crime x plus on Apple Podcasts today. So to disrupt,

830
00:41:35,680 --> 00:41:39,560
Speaker 1: so you can use an example of where you've identified

831
00:41:39,600 --> 00:41:43,160
Speaker 1: someone that the ideology has crossed the line to become

832
00:41:43,360 --> 00:41:46,320
Speaker 1: radicalization in that you think they're going to do something.

833
00:41:47,360 --> 00:41:50,040
Speaker 1: Counter Terrorism as distinct, well not distinct. We all try

834
00:41:50,080 --> 00:41:53,239
Speaker 1: to prevent crime, but the consequences are devastating. In counter

835
00:41:53,360 --> 00:41:56,520
Speaker 1: terrorism if you don't act before the actual crimes occurs.

836
00:41:56,640 --> 00:42:03,719
Speaker 2: So the aim of proactive investigtion is to eliminate the

837
00:42:03,719 --> 00:42:07,040
Speaker 2: threat before occurs. So what we do is we look

838
00:42:07,040 --> 00:42:10,880
Speaker 2: at the indicators. We then, because of necessity, Western societies

839
00:42:10,920 --> 00:42:13,440
Speaker 2: have changed the legislation so that we can move a

840
00:42:13,520 --> 00:42:16,359
Speaker 2: lot earlier in criminal offenses under the terrorism banner. Then

841
00:42:16,360 --> 00:42:20,440
Speaker 2: we come under traditional crimes. So once we've got so,

842
00:42:20,960 --> 00:42:23,799
Speaker 2: the tests for us to get above or get over

843
00:42:24,040 --> 00:42:26,799
Speaker 2: are a lot less. So the whole idea is to

844
00:42:26,840 --> 00:42:32,000
Speaker 2: preempt the threat by arresting the person before they can

845
00:42:32,040 --> 00:42:34,920
Speaker 2: commit their acts of their terrorist acts are acts of criminality.

846
00:42:35,200 --> 00:42:37,440
Speaker 2: They can go into custody and then they can be

847
00:42:37,480 --> 00:42:40,680
Speaker 2: subject to treatment. Now this is probably as cops we're

848
00:42:40,719 --> 00:42:45,600
Speaker 2: not used to this, but we need to treat these people,

849
00:42:46,719 --> 00:42:48,719
Speaker 2: you know, so that when they come out they are

850
00:42:48,760 --> 00:42:49,920
Speaker 2: no longer a threat to us.

851
00:42:50,320 --> 00:42:53,440
Speaker 1: And that's a really complex saying treat if they're in

852
00:42:53,480 --> 00:42:57,040
Speaker 1: custody or police custody or the custodial sentence, when do

853
00:42:57,080 --> 00:42:58,600
Speaker 1: you think the treatment needs to come in?

854
00:42:58,760 --> 00:43:04,400
Speaker 2: Well, look, i'll define it there. There's counter radicalization, so

855
00:43:04,480 --> 00:43:08,040
Speaker 2: we're stopping people becoming radicalized. So those that are adhering

856
00:43:08,080 --> 00:43:13,080
Speaker 2: to extreme belief, extreme ideology. Try to interdict there to

857
00:43:13,120 --> 00:43:17,680
Speaker 2: stop them becoming radicalized. That's where we lean on you know, religious.

858
00:43:17,320 --> 00:43:20,160
Speaker 1: Leaders community quite often you hear them come out.

859
00:43:20,080 --> 00:43:24,759
Speaker 2: As psychologists support work. You know, New South Wales has programs,

860
00:43:24,800 --> 00:43:28,319
Speaker 2: the Commonwealth has programs, each jurisdiction, Australia has programs and

861
00:43:28,320 --> 00:43:31,000
Speaker 2: they've got programs in wa under this instance where they

862
00:43:31,040 --> 00:43:34,920
Speaker 2: try to again take them away from that path and

863
00:43:35,200 --> 00:43:38,520
Speaker 2: stop them going down that path of radicalization. Once a

864
00:43:38,560 --> 00:43:42,440
Speaker 2: person has been radicalized, then by definition they have to

865
00:43:42,440 --> 00:43:46,600
Speaker 2: be deradicalized so that their beliefs or their intentions are

866
00:43:46,640 --> 00:43:49,200
Speaker 2: no longer to commit acts of violence against the community.

867
00:43:49,440 --> 00:43:52,720
Speaker 2: So there are two different processes. Now, counter will start

868
00:43:53,000 --> 00:43:56,000
Speaker 2: clearly before a person gets incarcerated. If a person has

869
00:43:56,040 --> 00:44:00,279
Speaker 2: been radicalized, that means they're a direct threat, not storty

870
00:44:00,360 --> 00:44:03,080
Speaker 2: times they will be in custody. Now, when they're in custody,

871
00:44:03,360 --> 00:44:05,759
Speaker 2: that gives us their captive audience and that's I think

872
00:44:05,760 --> 00:44:07,600
Speaker 2: where we can do a lot more work in that space,

873
00:44:07,920 --> 00:44:10,800
Speaker 2: and I like to think government can invest more correct

874
00:44:10,800 --> 00:44:15,440
Speaker 2: your services. You know, the community of Yeas on multiculturalism

875
00:44:15,640 --> 00:44:18,040
Speaker 2: in New South Wales, they can all act and add

876
00:44:18,080 --> 00:44:18,840
Speaker 2: to that process.

877
00:44:19,120 --> 00:44:21,720
Speaker 1: It makes sense to try and deal with the situation

878
00:44:21,840 --> 00:44:24,480
Speaker 1: that way because if they finish their sentence and come

879
00:44:24,520 --> 00:44:27,080
Speaker 1: out and still have the same the same beliefs.

880
00:44:28,960 --> 00:44:32,319
Speaker 2: To take that further, the biggest risks in globally from

881
00:44:32,400 --> 00:44:35,400
Speaker 2: terrorists now is a thing court during threat. Now, during

882
00:44:35,480 --> 00:44:37,640
Speaker 2: threat are people that have come to the tension of

883
00:44:37,680 --> 00:44:41,759
Speaker 2: authorities in a terrorism context, but there've been assessed not

884
00:44:41,840 --> 00:44:44,799
Speaker 2: to constitute a threat at that time and therefore have

885
00:44:44,880 --> 00:44:48,000
Speaker 2: been cut loose for one of the better word that

886
00:44:48,360 --> 00:44:51,279
Speaker 2: cohorted people are the ones creating the biggest threat to

887
00:44:51,320 --> 00:44:56,239
Speaker 2: society globally. To counter that, both Commonwealth and New South

888
00:44:56,239 --> 00:45:00,359
Speaker 2: Wales have brought into process new legislation could high risk

889
00:45:00,640 --> 00:45:06,799
Speaker 2: terrorism offenders legislation which is post sentenced detention and compliance regimes.

890
00:45:07,239 --> 00:45:10,080
Speaker 2: So we've invested the state government and the Comic government

891
00:45:10,120 --> 00:45:13,400
Speaker 2: invested in developing teams that manage those people that are

892
00:45:13,400 --> 00:45:16,760
Speaker 2: in custody for terrorism offenses or become radicalized in prison,

893
00:45:17,200 --> 00:45:20,280
Speaker 2: that pose an unacceptable risk to society on their release.

894
00:45:20,560 --> 00:45:22,120
Speaker 2: We've got teams now that just look at that and

895
00:45:22,120 --> 00:45:26,200
Speaker 2: focus on that to try and mitigate that risk factor

896
00:45:26,200 --> 00:45:26,720
Speaker 2: that we've.

897
00:45:26,520 --> 00:45:29,600
Speaker 1: Got and a lot of resourcing goes into this, Dave too,

898
00:45:29,800 --> 00:45:31,799
Speaker 1: do you think we've come to terms of this as

899
00:45:31,800 --> 00:45:34,200
Speaker 1: the way that we've got to approach crime? Look at

900
00:45:34,239 --> 00:45:36,520
Speaker 1: are the resources that we apply it to this because

901
00:45:36,640 --> 00:45:40,040
Speaker 1: it's not an easy, easy fix to change people's views.

902
00:45:40,080 --> 00:45:44,440
Speaker 2: And so if practically as detectives, we've got detectives working

903
00:45:44,480 --> 00:45:48,760
Speaker 2: in the post sentenced detention world that are investigating threat

904
00:45:48,800 --> 00:45:52,000
Speaker 2: and risk, not criminal offenses. So this is a dynamic change.

905
00:45:52,040 --> 00:45:56,600
Speaker 2: So we're changing the way criminal investigators work and analysts work.

906
00:45:57,040 --> 00:45:59,760
Speaker 2: So it's you know, it takes a lot of effort

907
00:45:59,840 --> 00:46:02,800
Speaker 2: to change how you do business. Your skills are the same,

908
00:46:03,000 --> 00:46:04,200
Speaker 2: but your focus is different.

909
00:46:04,239 --> 00:46:07,759
Speaker 1: And I watched from the sidelines with you guys, but

910
00:46:07,840 --> 00:46:10,480
Speaker 1: like speaking to Peter Moroney and catching up with you,

911
00:46:11,040 --> 00:46:12,879
Speaker 1: it was a learning curve the whole way through when

912
00:46:12,920 --> 00:46:14,280
Speaker 1: you guys first started.

913
00:46:14,400 --> 00:46:18,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, look, it's got described me as a throw the plane,

914
00:46:18,280 --> 00:46:20,000
Speaker 2: throw the bits of a plane over the cliff and

915
00:46:20,000 --> 00:46:22,080
Speaker 2: build it on the way down. Wh's exactly what happened. Yeh,

916
00:46:22,640 --> 00:46:24,319
Speaker 2: We're giving jobs and we don't know what we're doing,

917
00:46:24,360 --> 00:46:26,520
Speaker 2: and we're finding it. We're catching it on the fly,

918
00:46:26,840 --> 00:46:29,880
Speaker 2: so that the book. So all those lessons is what

919
00:46:29,960 --> 00:46:31,399
Speaker 2: was contained in the book, and that's why I didn't

920
00:46:31,400 --> 00:46:34,920
Speaker 2: want to lose that. They were hard one lessons.

921
00:46:35,040 --> 00:46:38,200
Speaker 1: Because I know speaking to speaking to the guys and

922
00:46:38,239 --> 00:46:41,320
Speaker 1: girls that went across the count of terrorism, some people

923
00:46:41,360 --> 00:46:43,439
Speaker 1: got it. Some people said we're not doing anything because

924
00:46:43,640 --> 00:46:46,600
Speaker 1: they were looking at it more as a traditional form

925
00:46:46,600 --> 00:46:47,080
Speaker 1: of policing.

926
00:46:48,080 --> 00:46:54,279
Speaker 2: So you say to someone Billy Smith over, there is

927
00:46:54,320 --> 00:46:57,960
Speaker 2: a terrorist threat investigated. Some people take it, take like

928
00:46:58,040 --> 00:47:00,840
Speaker 2: doctor water, Others go where do I start. It's just

929
00:47:01,719 --> 00:47:04,000
Speaker 2: a skill set. Some people are really good at it

930
00:47:04,040 --> 00:47:05,239
Speaker 2: and excel. Others don't.

931
00:47:05,320 --> 00:47:07,680
Speaker 1: And what's the way I think there's a pressure to it, Dave,

932
00:47:07,719 --> 00:47:11,200
Speaker 1: And I've said this to people that work in counter terrorism.

933
00:47:11,640 --> 00:47:13,799
Speaker 1: The work that we do is reactive. Yes, it's bad,

934
00:47:13,840 --> 00:47:16,320
Speaker 1: but the easiest on call I had was when someone

935
00:47:16,320 --> 00:47:19,640
Speaker 1: had been murdered. I'm saying that with the greatest respect

936
00:47:19,680 --> 00:47:22,640
Speaker 1: to the victims. It's easy to then, okay, work back

937
00:47:22,640 --> 00:47:26,360
Speaker 1: from the crime. The difficult ones where you get information.

938
00:47:26,480 --> 00:47:28,160
Speaker 1: You get called at two o'clock in the morning and

939
00:47:28,440 --> 00:47:30,920
Speaker 1: you might be looking at some gangsters or whatever. They

940
00:47:31,000 --> 00:47:32,600
Speaker 1: might do a hit on this person. They might do

941
00:47:32,640 --> 00:47:34,400
Speaker 1: a hit on that person. Then you've got all the

942
00:47:34,440 --> 00:47:36,920
Speaker 1: pressure of what do I do? If I do nothing

943
00:47:36,960 --> 00:47:38,880
Speaker 1: and someone gets killed, am I going to be in

944
00:47:38,920 --> 00:47:40,880
Speaker 1: the shit? And it's not just am I going to

945
00:47:40,920 --> 00:47:42,960
Speaker 1: be in the shit? Someone's going to lose their life.

946
00:47:43,400 --> 00:47:45,960
Speaker 1: But the pressure they were the hard calls you get

947
00:47:45,960 --> 00:47:49,200
Speaker 1: at two o'clock in the morning counter terrorism, that pretty

948
00:47:49,239 --> 00:47:52,240
Speaker 1: much sums up all the type of calls that you.

949
00:47:51,800 --> 00:47:55,799
Speaker 2: So the unique aspect of CT work is that there's

950
00:47:55,840 --> 00:47:59,680
Speaker 2: a reverse onus of responsibility upon the police and authorities.

951
00:48:00,160 --> 00:48:03,520
Speaker 2: If it goes bad, we blame our authorities for not

952
00:48:03,560 --> 00:48:06,440
Speaker 2: stopping it. We look for examples, we'll do a review,

953
00:48:06,760 --> 00:48:11,080
Speaker 2: we'll do an inquest, and we will look at my

954
00:48:11,239 --> 00:48:15,240
Speaker 2: niche details after where the authorities are failed to stop

955
00:48:15,280 --> 00:48:18,920
Speaker 2: the attack. We don't see that to such a degree

956
00:48:19,400 --> 00:48:24,239
Speaker 2: in other crime types. So if you miss, you don't

957
00:48:24,239 --> 00:48:27,480
Speaker 2: get the speeding driver and he crashes into a tree

958
00:48:27,520 --> 00:48:29,800
Speaker 2: and kills himself, there's no inquest as to why the

959
00:48:29,840 --> 00:48:30,520
Speaker 2: police didn't stop.

960
00:48:30,520 --> 00:48:35,920
Speaker 1: Well, outside homicide and a few arson matters, no investigation

961
00:48:36,040 --> 00:48:38,239
Speaker 1: got reviewed. If you didn't get results, that's right, But

962
00:48:38,400 --> 00:48:40,840
Speaker 1: we've countered terrorism. You're quite right. If there's a terrorist

963
00:48:41,000 --> 00:48:44,240
Speaker 1: act that happened, Everyone's going to be turning over their shoulder,

964
00:48:44,320 --> 00:48:45,759
Speaker 1: well did you do this, did you do that?

965
00:48:46,080 --> 00:48:49,239
Speaker 2: And what didn't you do? And also to put it

966
00:48:49,280 --> 00:48:51,319
Speaker 2: in context, it's well and good to look at these

967
00:48:51,320 --> 00:48:54,600
Speaker 2: in isolation, but there's not one time in my career

968
00:48:54,640 --> 00:48:58,160
Speaker 2: in CT that I didn't have five to ten to

969
00:48:58,239 --> 00:49:01,800
Speaker 2: twenty jobs running concurrently that five to ten to twenty

970
00:49:02,239 --> 00:49:06,120
Speaker 2: separate threats running around. So they're constantly there. So you

971
00:49:06,520 --> 00:49:09,080
Speaker 2: never sleep, you never you never switch off. You're looking

972
00:49:09,080 --> 00:49:12,799
Speaker 2: for triggers all the time, you know. So what we

973
00:49:12,880 --> 00:49:17,560
Speaker 2: say terrorists think globally but act locally. Now what that

974
00:49:17,600 --> 00:49:20,719
Speaker 2: means is that global events will impact locally. So we're

975
00:49:20,760 --> 00:49:25,360
Speaker 2: constantly perusing international papers. What's happening in different parts of

976
00:49:25,400 --> 00:49:28,319
Speaker 2: the world. Is that going to trigger a response here

977
00:49:28,520 --> 00:49:31,600
Speaker 2: from the people looking at So it's a constant checking

978
00:49:31,640 --> 00:49:35,960
Speaker 2: for triggers, monitoring people. You constantly collect, We collect information,

979
00:49:36,400 --> 00:49:38,719
Speaker 2: and your head explodes with the amount of information colleck

980
00:49:39,000 --> 00:49:41,520
Speaker 2: to try and make sense and to see the week

981
00:49:41,560 --> 00:49:42,120
Speaker 2: from the shaft.

982
00:49:42,239 --> 00:49:44,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, well, and it's got to be you've got

983
00:49:44,640 --> 00:49:47,560
Speaker 1: to have a global view of things too, because something

984
00:49:47,560 --> 00:49:49,000
Speaker 1: that can happen on the other side of the world

985
00:49:49,080 --> 00:49:50,479
Speaker 1: might impact on here well.

986
00:49:50,560 --> 00:49:54,200
Speaker 2: So if we look at that, we look at currently

987
00:49:55,239 --> 00:49:58,560
Speaker 2: you know, seventh of October we had a Hamas attack

988
00:49:59,160 --> 00:50:04,640
Speaker 2: in Israel. Then consequently we then get an armed conflict

989
00:50:04,640 --> 00:50:09,040
Speaker 2: within Gaza. Now that those interactions in the Middle East

990
00:50:09,360 --> 00:50:14,200
Speaker 2: have created a great deal of unrest and tension within

991
00:50:14,680 --> 00:50:17,279
Speaker 2: Australian society, it's not in Australian society. We've just seen

992
00:50:17,360 --> 00:50:20,359
Speaker 2: recently a number of the universities in the US US

993
00:50:20,920 --> 00:50:24,359
Speaker 2: where you know, you know, they've had confrontations with law

994
00:50:24,440 --> 00:50:29,760
Speaker 2: enforcement and protests. Here we see a lot of pro Palestinian,

995
00:50:30,120 --> 00:50:34,839
Speaker 2: pro Israel counter demonstrations. Now in the light of that,

996
00:50:35,200 --> 00:50:39,279
Speaker 2: we've had Bondai, we've had Wakely. So the one would

997
00:50:39,280 --> 00:50:42,080
Speaker 2: suggest that there is an increase in tensions in relation

998
00:50:42,280 --> 00:50:46,600
Speaker 2: to religious ideology and that has been reflected domestically in Australia.

999
00:50:46,640 --> 00:50:49,160
Speaker 2: So that's where globally is impacting.

1000
00:50:49,200 --> 00:50:54,560
Speaker 1: Like it's linked, isn't it definitely? Okay? Risk versus threat?

1001
00:50:54,640 --> 00:50:57,239
Speaker 1: How do you break that down in your terms? Like

1002
00:50:57,600 --> 00:51:03,080
Speaker 1: there's a risk is the threat? So I'll use the scenario.

1003
00:51:03,200 --> 00:51:05,560
Speaker 1: I'm the primary on core officer state crime, which is

1004
00:51:05,560 --> 00:51:07,719
Speaker 1: always a great job. You never got much slip, just

1005
00:51:07,760 --> 00:51:11,760
Speaker 1: the phone ringing constantly, but we get a call. Okay,

1006
00:51:11,800 --> 00:51:14,120
Speaker 1: what's the information. Someone's just come in and said, this

1007
00:51:14,239 --> 00:51:17,120
Speaker 1: young kid's talking about doing something because he doesn't believe

1008
00:51:17,160 --> 00:51:20,400
Speaker 1: in what's happening in Palestine going on like that. I

1009
00:51:20,520 --> 00:51:22,520
Speaker 1: refer it to you, guys, where do you take it?

1010
00:51:22,840 --> 00:51:27,359
Speaker 2: So we operate in the world of threat. Now. I

1011
00:51:27,400 --> 00:51:30,399
Speaker 2: don't know about you, but whenever we had a job,

1012
00:51:31,160 --> 00:51:33,480
Speaker 2: a new boss would come in and he'd say, give

1013
00:51:33,480 --> 00:51:36,160
Speaker 2: me a risk assessment, and then I'd say, a risk

1014
00:51:36,160 --> 00:51:39,279
Speaker 2: assessment on what there is a thousand risks involved in

1015
00:51:39,440 --> 00:51:43,600
Speaker 2: just that scenario. Corporation risk, risk to life rested in

1016
00:51:43,600 --> 00:51:48,200
Speaker 2: an individual risk to officer safety. So we have to

1017
00:51:48,239 --> 00:51:51,920
Speaker 2: identify how that works. So we operated on threat. Now,

1018
00:51:52,000 --> 00:51:56,160
Speaker 2: threat is aligned to human nature. Risk is an economic concept,

1019
00:51:56,920 --> 00:52:00,600
Speaker 2: so we don't We would normally associate risk of what

1020
00:52:00,600 --> 00:52:02,919
Speaker 2: we call corporate safety. So if I want to look

1021
00:52:02,960 --> 00:52:06,120
Speaker 2: after the good reputation and brand of the new South

1022
00:52:06,160 --> 00:52:10,840
Speaker 2: palest Police or the JCT or you know, Gary Jubilan Enterprises,

1023
00:52:11,120 --> 00:52:13,400
Speaker 2: I would apply the concepts of risk because that's what

1024
00:52:13,440 --> 00:52:17,480
Speaker 2: that's for. If I'm worrying about public safety and safety

1025
00:52:17,520 --> 00:52:21,319
Speaker 2: of individuals, I apply the concept of threat, So you

1026
00:52:21,400 --> 00:52:24,359
Speaker 2: give me that information. So we're now using that. Now

1027
00:52:24,360 --> 00:52:27,640
Speaker 2: one of the greatest unsung heroes in ct Intel analysts,

1028
00:52:28,320 --> 00:52:29,840
Speaker 2: they will get that and they will work it up

1029
00:52:29,880 --> 00:52:32,880
Speaker 2: and give us a picture and will profiles and we

1030
00:52:32,920 --> 00:52:35,560
Speaker 2: start then we start looking at what their indicators are

1031
00:52:35,600 --> 00:52:36,280
Speaker 2: and where they.

1032
00:52:36,160 --> 00:52:38,000
Speaker 1: Go and the type of things that you'd be looking

1033
00:52:38,040 --> 00:52:40,600
Speaker 1: at if we're talking the scenario I through out there

1034
00:52:40,719 --> 00:52:44,360
Speaker 1: is who is that person associated with? What's his background,

1035
00:52:44,719 --> 00:52:46,880
Speaker 1: any previous history, any threats.

1036
00:52:46,960 --> 00:52:49,520
Speaker 2: So we look at and depending what the ideology so

1037
00:52:49,880 --> 00:52:52,400
Speaker 2: do let's still a right wing ideology because that's so

1038
00:52:52,920 --> 00:52:55,799
Speaker 2: who are they associating with, what's their online traffic? Like,

1039
00:52:56,880 --> 00:52:59,880
Speaker 2: where do they go, what do they do? You know,

1040
00:53:00,360 --> 00:53:04,839
Speaker 2: have have they come into contact with authorities before? It's

1041
00:53:04,880 --> 00:53:07,960
Speaker 2: amazing when they've come into contact authorities before. They will

1042
00:53:07,960 --> 00:53:12,120
Speaker 2: say real silly things that leak their intentions through, you know,

1043
00:53:12,360 --> 00:53:14,960
Speaker 2: like you know, Adolf Hitler's a great man, et cetera.

1044
00:53:15,080 --> 00:53:18,680
Speaker 2: Those things. Now good police and you know, good police

1045
00:53:18,680 --> 00:53:22,280
Speaker 2: are worth there's you know, they're waiting black spiders record

1046
00:53:22,360 --> 00:53:24,560
Speaker 2: that and you see that, and that is a real

1047
00:53:24,680 --> 00:53:27,200
Speaker 2: enriched picture. It wasn't just a vehicle stop. There's a

1048
00:53:27,239 --> 00:53:32,239
Speaker 2: vehicle stop with intentions there. Look, I remember I go

1049
00:53:32,360 --> 00:53:34,360
Speaker 2: back to case. There was a guy isis can't that

1050
00:53:34,440 --> 00:53:37,680
Speaker 2: stabbed a fellow in Mintouh. And he was a classic

1051
00:53:38,040 --> 00:53:41,160
Speaker 2: case where he had cognitive opening. His mother he was

1052
00:53:41,560 --> 00:53:45,960
Speaker 2: his mother suffered cancer and died and he saw solace

1053
00:53:46,080 --> 00:53:49,000
Speaker 2: in his belief and then started to adopt an extreme

1054
00:53:49,040 --> 00:53:52,319
Speaker 2: interpretation of that belief. Now, some of his indicators were

1055
00:53:52,400 --> 00:53:54,719
Speaker 2: is that he would walk past shops and if he

1056
00:53:54,760 --> 00:54:00,560
Speaker 2: saw women scantily dressed in an advertising situation, uh, he

1057
00:54:00,600 --> 00:54:03,000
Speaker 2: would put covers up to cover the modesty of the woman.

1058
00:54:03,920 --> 00:54:06,480
Speaker 2: He would then walk around the street and start expousing

1059
00:54:06,920 --> 00:54:10,040
Speaker 2: his ideology to the neighbors. Now, all that got slipped.

1060
00:54:10,320 --> 00:54:12,680
Speaker 2: No one saw that. It wasn't until after that those

1061
00:54:12,719 --> 00:54:15,160
Speaker 2: indicators came out and we could have made a better picture.

1062
00:54:15,400 --> 00:54:18,080
Speaker 1: Okay, And they're the little things that can slip through

1063
00:54:18,400 --> 00:54:21,120
Speaker 1: if you don't have people switched on to what's occurring.

1064
00:54:21,840 --> 00:54:24,080
Speaker 1: We might take a break. Now, there is so much

1065
00:54:24,120 --> 00:54:26,640
Speaker 1: to dissect in the world of count the terrorism, and

1066
00:54:27,120 --> 00:54:29,479
Speaker 1: we'll do that when we get back. But you're giving

1067
00:54:29,480 --> 00:54:32,359
Speaker 1: this a really interesting insight into a world that it

1068
00:54:32,360 --> 00:54:35,080
Speaker 1: affects us. All doesn't. We can't ignore it.

1069
00:54:35,440 --> 00:54:40,680
Speaker 2: So the interesting part we identified terrorism in the first

1070
00:54:40,760 --> 00:54:44,040
Speaker 2: terrorist plot in Australia was in eighteen hundred, it's been

1071
00:54:44,080 --> 00:54:45,040
Speaker 2: with us ever since.

1072
00:54:45,160 --> 00:54:46,839
Speaker 1: What was that in relation to them?

1073
00:54:47,120 --> 00:54:52,600
Speaker 2: So Australia's first terrorists were religiously motivated. They were a minority.

1074
00:54:53,760 --> 00:54:56,320
Speaker 2: The predominant religion in Australia at the time was Protestant

1075
00:54:56,800 --> 00:55:01,280
Speaker 2: and the minority was a group of con of Catholic

1076
00:55:01,360 --> 00:55:07,840
Speaker 2: Irish descent, and they were referred to as radical radical

1077
00:55:08,320 --> 00:55:16,200
Speaker 2: Catholic convicts. Now, in September nineteen, eighteen hundred, Governor Hunter

1078
00:55:16,800 --> 00:55:23,640
Speaker 2: received human information that the Catholic convicts, through instruction from

1079
00:55:23,680 --> 00:55:29,520
Speaker 2: their religious leaders, we're going to attack the colony, stealership

1080
00:55:30,520 --> 00:55:35,440
Speaker 2: and head back to head home. So they interdicted and

1081
00:55:35,719 --> 00:55:41,279
Speaker 2: arrested the Irish Catholic convicts and interestingly appointed the investigation

1082
00:55:41,400 --> 00:55:45,280
Speaker 2: to a person called Reverend Samuel Marsden. Now Samuel Marsin

1083
00:55:45,400 --> 00:55:48,840
Speaker 2: is a pivotal person in the establishment of Australia, but

1084
00:55:48,920 --> 00:55:52,640
Speaker 2: in essence he was Australia's first counter terrorism investigator. Governor

1085
00:55:52,719 --> 00:55:57,839
Speaker 2: Hunter involved him to actually connect the first terrorism investigation,

1086
00:55:59,320 --> 00:56:03,719
Speaker 2: which that resulted in the Catholic priest being arrested and

1087
00:56:04,000 --> 00:56:06,520
Speaker 2: sent to Norfolk Island and a number of the other

1088
00:56:06,600 --> 00:56:09,719
Speaker 2: convicts are also being sent to Northfolk Island and Van

1089
00:56:09,760 --> 00:56:12,880
Speaker 2: Demon's Land in retribution for their intended actor. Do you

1090
00:56:12,880 --> 00:56:17,200
Speaker 2: think they do radical Yeah, that only really works, but yeah,

1091
00:56:17,280 --> 00:56:20,160
Speaker 2: so it's interesting, so that there's a history to it.

1092
00:56:20,280 --> 00:56:23,040
Speaker 2: If we accept that and we treat terrorism as a crime,

1093
00:56:23,920 --> 00:56:26,720
Speaker 2: crime is part of every aspect of our life. Terrorism

1094
00:56:26,760 --> 00:56:28,600
Speaker 2: is a crime. It's a part of every aspect of

1095
00:56:28,600 --> 00:56:29,120
Speaker 2: our life.

1096
00:56:29,320 --> 00:56:31,799
Speaker 1: Okay, well there you get. That's from doctor Dave Gore

1097
00:56:32,080 --> 00:56:33,839
Speaker 1: and that we'll do more of it when we get

1098
00:56:33,880 --> 00:56:35,759
Speaker 1: back to part two. Excellent Cheers,