Speaker 1: The public has had a long held fascination with detectives.
Speaker 1: Detective see a side of life. The average person is
Speaker 1: never exposed her I spent thirty four years as a cop.
Speaker 1: For twenty five of those years, I was catching killers.
Speaker 1: That's what I did for a living. I was a
Speaker 1: homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead,
Speaker 1: I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated.
Speaker 1: The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories
Speaker 1: from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw
Speaker 1: and honest, just like the people I talk to. Some
Speaker 1: of the content and language might be confronting. That's because
Speaker 1: no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged.
Speaker 1: Join me now as I take you into this world.
Speaker 1: Welcome back to Eye Catch Killers. For part four of
Speaker 1: my chat, we've retired Detective Chief Inspector Pamely Young. If
Speaker 1: you happen to miss the first three episodes of this chat,
Speaker 1: you might pick up on there's a bit of two
Speaker 1: in them throwing between Pam and I. Not only we
Speaker 1: work together for twenty years or so in homicide, we
Speaker 1: also were in a relationship and lived together for quite
Speaker 1: some time. So there's a bit of familiarity.
Speaker 2: Is that the word there?
Speaker 1: So this last part, Pam, we're going to talk about
Speaker 1: we've got a sense of who you were as a detective,
Speaker 1: and we're going to talk about an investigation that's had
Speaker 1: a big impact on you. It's been very publicly discussed
Speaker 1: and that's the Scott Johnson matter. Will break that down
Speaker 1: that investigation. I just want to say, and I mean this,
Speaker 1: and it's important that I get across when we talk
Speaker 1: about and I think I mentioned it at the introduction
Speaker 1: that I thought of myself as a dedicated, driven detective,
Speaker 1: but I couldn't keep up the intensity that you displayed
Speaker 1: when you're on an investigation. And I say full credit
Speaker 1: to you, Others might say, well, there's something wrong with you.
Speaker 1: I think it's something you should be proud of. To
Speaker 1: give you an understanding of the work that you did
Speaker 1: on the Scott Johnson matter. I just want to relay
Speaker 1: this incident or series of incidents. It was I saw
Speaker 1: you on a Friday afternoon. I was working out of
Speaker 1: the Unsolved Homicide on an investigation at the time. I
Speaker 1: saw you a Friday afternoon in the Unsolved Homicide office.
Speaker 1: Were on the same floor and said goodbye and walked
Speaker 1: out the office. I was going through an interesting time
Speaker 1: in life, didn't have much to do in my life,
Speaker 1: so I came back into the office on Saturday to
Speaker 1: work on some investigations, even though it was my day off.
Speaker 1: And I see you still at the same desk, still
Speaker 1: wearing the same clothes. On the Saturday morning, I gone, Pam,
Speaker 1: what are you up to? What are you doing here?
Speaker 1: Have you gone home? And you said no, I've got
Speaker 1: to get this done. And you didn't even have time
Speaker 1: to look up or talk to me.
Speaker 2: You just kept typing.
Speaker 1: So I spent the day there. I think I gave
Speaker 1: you my lunch. I felt sorry for you. I bought
Speaker 1: my lunch in because it wasn't many shops open around headquarters.
Speaker 2: On the weekend.
Speaker 1: And I said, now make sure you go home like
Speaker 1: I've seen you work overnight before, and I knew you
Speaker 1: were capable of putting in the twenty four hours shift.
Speaker 1: Then sadly, I get back there on Sunday walking there's
Speaker 1: no one else in the office, but there's Pam still
Speaker 1: sitting at the same desk, still working on the same
Speaker 1: Scott Johnson manor the effort that you're putting into that,
Speaker 1: and I got cranky at you. I said, you're a
Speaker 1: lunatic young what are you doing here? You've got to sleep,
Speaker 1: and you've gone, I'll go sleep in the car. I
Speaker 1: can sleep in the car and the car park, which
Speaker 1: we've done quite quite often. It's not healthy, but we've
Speaker 1: done that just to get an hour's kip. And then
Speaker 1: about lunchtime you were annoying hell out of me, and
Speaker 1: you were you were remarried at that stage, and I
Speaker 1: didn't want to just physically drag you out of the
Speaker 1: office and drop you home, so I said, look, I'm
Speaker 1: even going to drop you home because you're not driving
Speaker 1: or your husband's going to pick you up. And I
Speaker 1: didn't leave until you left that day. And I think, so,
Speaker 1: you're not good at maths, but you know, probably forty
Speaker 1: eight hours straight working on that investigation.
Speaker 3: Yes, I think that's a slightly underdone number. But I
Speaker 3: just want to pull you up on something you've said
Speaker 3: a few times now about my intensity is more than yours.
Speaker 3: That's not true. You were so intense. We were equals
Speaker 3: equals at a high level equals. So no, I wasn't
Speaker 3: more intense. What strength you had was an ability to
Speaker 3: switch off. My strength was holding in there until the
Speaker 3: job was finished done, and then I'd luxuriate, luxuriate in nothingness,
Speaker 3: whereas you were extremely intense, the same as me, but
Speaker 3: with an ability to switch off and be the dad
Speaker 3: and attend to practical things. But you never your weakness
Speaker 3: was never being able to luxuriate. Auste is a word
Speaker 3: that comes to mind. I think my mother called you
Speaker 3: that when she first met.
Speaker 1: I didn't know what the word meant. I'm not sure
Speaker 1: it telling me Garrett me, I just said thank you.
Speaker 3: So it's yeah, so, I look, thank you so much
Speaker 3: for your compliments. But yeah, I only ever felt that
Speaker 3: our intensity was the same and and worked well for
Speaker 3: the community.
Speaker 2: Punish themselves. But yeah, yeah, So I raised that.
Speaker 1: With the Scott Johnson matter. And do you want to
Speaker 1: just talk us through your involvement in the Scott Johnson
Speaker 1: matter what it was about? Right?
Speaker 3: Well, it started very simply with a love story between
Speaker 3: Scott Johnson and another UNI student at that stage, Michael Noon.
Speaker 3: Michael was an Australian citizen. They met, I think it
Speaker 3: was in England and Felling fell in love and Scott
Speaker 3: moved to Australia to live be the partner of Michael.
Speaker 3: On the brink of Scott getting his Australian citizenship, he
Speaker 3: was originally from an American He was an American citizen.
Speaker 3: On the eve of Scott receiving his Australian citizenship, he
Speaker 3: was he was found dead over and naked at the
Speaker 3: bottom of a sixty meter cliff at north Head on
Speaker 3: the I think it's the western side and that was
Speaker 3: in yes, nineteen eighty eight. So that case was given
Speaker 3: to me in twenty thirteen.
Speaker 2: Unsolved.
Speaker 3: Yes, yes, once I was in. Yes, as a cold
Speaker 3: case you in.
Speaker 1: Your capacity is working unsolved. Was had look at the
Speaker 1: had to look at the investigation.
Speaker 3: Yes, I was the boss of all active investigations in
Speaker 3: the cold case. So it was given to me after
Speaker 3: the police Minister had had made a call to the
Speaker 3: boss of the squad and wanted to prioritize a reinvestigation
Speaker 3: of Scott Johnson's death. So that I understand. That came
Speaker 3: about because Scott had an older brother, Steve, and Steve
Speaker 3: loved Scott, and he also though had he was a
Speaker 3: wealthy man, well connected in America with the Kennedy family
Speaker 3: and the intellectual and political elite there, and he of
Speaker 3: course had hopes that his brother's death, which was unresolved
Speaker 3: at that point. It had there was a suicide finding
Speaker 3: by the coroner, the first coroner, and then there was
Speaker 3: an open finding, and then Steve was aiming to have
Speaker 3: a third potentially a third coronial inquest and certainly a rigorous,
Speaker 3: more rigorous investigation into Scott's death. And he went about
Speaker 3: that by asking for a meeting with the police minister,
Speaker 3: which the police minister gave him. I was a little
Speaker 3: bit surprised by that because I knew other families are
Speaker 3: the next to kin who had asked to meet with
Speaker 3: the police minister and never had any luck. So I
Speaker 3: guess it was a message, a strong message to me
Speaker 3: and my boss and other you know, the hierarchy at
Speaker 3: State Crime Command that this man had influence.
Speaker 1: Okay, so on the on the back of that, and
Speaker 1: just let me clarify, we've unsolved homicide because I've worked
Speaker 1: there for a short time myself, and they understand the
Speaker 1: workings of it. There's a lot of unsolved investigations. We're
Speaker 1: talking hundreds, I don't know the exact figure, but unsolved
Speaker 1: suspicious deaths matters that need to be reinvestigated. So on
Speaker 1: the back of that representation, you started looking at the
Speaker 1: death of Scott Johnson and you prepare the brief of
Speaker 1: evidence and went to inquest again.
Speaker 3: So when the Scott's death came to me, I was
Speaker 3: also a little bit surprised because I'd been asked to
Speaker 3: update the policy we had about which cases of our
Speaker 3: list of over six hundred unsolved cases, which cases are
Speaker 3: done before others or based on solvability factors, And my
Speaker 3: boss had asked me to write this policy clearly treating
Speaker 3: all victims as equals. So when I at the same
Speaker 3: time I was asked to take on this Scott's death
Speaker 3: as a priority, I was resistant to it on principle
Speaker 3: of all victims being equal, But anyway, I got stuck
Speaker 3: into it again with a good team. What then happened
Speaker 3: was a phenomenon to me. I hadn't seen it done
Speaker 3: quite this way, and it had a little bit of,
Speaker 3: I think, an progressive American media approach, which was joining
Speaker 3: forces with mainstream media and other interested parties. So gay
Speaker 3: rights lobby groups joining with the Johnson family in moving
Speaker 3: towards a larger investigation and labeling Scott's death absolutely as
Speaker 3: a gay hate crime, whereas I hadn't determined through evidence
Speaker 3: or facts that it was necessarily a gay hate crime.
Speaker 3: I was looking at it as a possibility, but with
Speaker 3: that theme or concern I call it a theme, but
Speaker 3: most definitely a concern in the community, particularly the LGBTQ community,
Speaker 3: that deaths of from that community historically so retrospective concern
Speaker 3: that there were some cases that were left unsolved through
Speaker 3: neglect of the police, intentional neglect of the police, or
Speaker 3: even being covered up by the police. So what I
Speaker 3: saw happening was this joining together of these interested parties
Speaker 3: which ended up having a lot of weight. So the
Speaker 3: Johnson family with their connections mainstream media, and then also
Speaker 3: LGBTIQ media and gay rights lobby groups, all very articulate
Speaker 3: with their concerns and heartfelt and passionate.
Speaker 1: And I think both you and I would acknowledge what
Speaker 1: you said that science, whether it's even just unconscious pass
Speaker 1: but some investigations in the past probably weren't done well.
Speaker 3: I mean, the whole the whole start of overlookd king
Speaker 3: my minority groups is and the gay community was that
Speaker 3: in the past, was it was actually legal to be homosexual.
Speaker 3: We can't forget that's not a long time ago. As
Speaker 3: shameful as that is, it's not a long time ago.
Speaker 3: And even when the law changes, it doesn't mean the
Speaker 3: public's view has changed and police and everything exactly, and
Speaker 3: police are drawn from the public. So their concerns were
Speaker 3: valid in a general sense. It's when it came down
Speaker 3: to specific cases, I guess, and scooping up Scott in
Speaker 3: that as a gay hate crime. But it was a
Speaker 3: very clever campaign and mechanism to keep it in the spotlight.
Speaker 3: So they were over over three hundred originating media stories
Speaker 3: on it, over three hundred I mean, I don't mean
Speaker 3: a story and then passed on multiple times. Over three
Speaker 3: hundred originating him then passed on, so thousands of them
Speaker 3: there were that became. I think our number was about
Speaker 3: eighty eight. Particular cases were of concern, but just to
Speaker 3: I guess illustrate how significant Scott's death became as part
Speaker 3: of the campaign, was of the let's say three hundred
Speaker 3: and twenty media stories, one third was about Scott. So
Speaker 3: of eighty eight potential unsolved victims, one third of all
Speaker 3: articles on Scott. So I think that's just a clear
Speaker 3: demonstration there. So there was a lot of a lot
Speaker 3: of pressure at work to deliver, to deliver well and
Speaker 3: to explain to the bosses. It's the only case I've
Speaker 3: ever known that the Police Minister took personal and specific
Speaker 3: interest in He was being included in emails that were
Speaker 3: a dressed to me from Stephen Johnson but CC to
Speaker 3: the Police Minister. I've never had that before.
Speaker 1: You know how I would push on some of the
Speaker 1: issues I had with the bearable thing. And yes, yeah,
Speaker 1: we had the march on Parliament four times to give
Speaker 1: Parliament a minister to get interested in them.
Speaker 3: And if I understand or remember correctly, I do believe
Speaker 3: that was one of the families of which there's a
Speaker 3: series of families with the serial nature of that job,
Speaker 3: who had asked to meet the minister. Yeah, and I
Speaker 3: think they I think they had been unsuccessful success yes,
Speaker 3: so yes, and others like that. So anyway, I guess
Speaker 3: it was what it was. That's what we're dealing with.
Speaker 3: So where that goes then is there is a third inquest,
Speaker 3: which is the only other case that's had a third
Speaker 3: inquest is the Lindy Chamberlain case. You may remember that way,
Speaker 3: So it was quite a phenomenon to have this third inquest,
Speaker 3: and the third inquest determined that Scott had been the
Speaker 3: victim of the gay hate crime.
Speaker 1: I think it's we probably should inform the listeners to
Speaker 1: the person by the name of Scott White has been
Speaker 1: convicted of the manslaughter of Scott Johnson. It's my understanding
Speaker 1: that he came forward with a confession in twenty twenty
Speaker 1: three out of the blue, and that when the Supreme
Speaker 1: Court judge handed down the sentencing, he said that the
Speaker 1: matter wasn't linked to a gay hate crime. Is that
Speaker 1: correct my understanding of it.
Speaker 3: That is correct, yes, yeah.
Speaker 1: And another interesting point on that particular conviction, the confession,
Speaker 1: and this I believe because I was following it. I
Speaker 1: believe it came out in court that the confession, the
Speaker 1: information contained in the confession was already readily available to
Speaker 1: the public through the media.
Speaker 3: That's right, there weren't. There wasn't an element or any
Speaker 3: elements that could not have been read in the media,
Speaker 3: which is a bit unusual. There's usually holdback which only
Speaker 3: the killer knows about. So look, but it's had such
Speaker 3: a long and arduous history that matter and bore Scott
Speaker 3: really deserves some rest. So let's hope that the conviction
Speaker 3: is safe. That would be really good for everybody. So
Speaker 3: in the mix of all that with what I've said
Speaker 3: was my understanding of how cases are prioritized, my personal view,
Speaker 3: and the policy about all victims being treated equally. In
Speaker 3: the mix of all that and all the bad publicity
Speaker 3: about how terrible police were, I was asked to do
Speaker 3: an interview with Late Line on the ABC. It's a
Speaker 3: current affairs program, and Emma Alberici was going to be
Speaker 3: the interviewer on that particular night. I was. I agreed
Speaker 3: and was keen because of the bad publicity that I
Speaker 3: thought I could bring knowledge of us case.
Speaker 2: Explain it, explain the situation, put it, put it.
Speaker 3: Face to the bad media messages and yeah. So uh
Speaker 3: so I agreed and did that and it was yes,
Speaker 3: so we went ahead. Now, of course that was all
Speaker 3: approved right up the hierarchy and to the you know,
Speaker 3: the head of the media unit as well. So I did.
Speaker 3: I did the interview, and I was told the the
Speaker 3: Commissioner of Police was relaxed about it, and and then
Speaker 3: the mood changed. So what I had.
Speaker 1: Can I just give some speaking on that. I was
Speaker 1: up at Port Macquaria. I was working on the Tyrole matter.
Speaker 1: But my parents lived up there at the time, and
Speaker 1: I watched watch that interview that you did with my father,
Speaker 1: who was up in the public service when he was working.
Speaker 1: He sat there and he said, wow, so impressive. I
Speaker 1: was sitting there, going, you've nailed it, young. I think
Speaker 1: the way that you came across professional and you were
Speaker 1: just giving an objective view on it. It wasn't you're
Speaker 1: against the Scott Johnson matter. You were just explaining the
Speaker 1: situation as you've explained here. And I remember the feeling
Speaker 1: within the police the next day. Everyone was happy with it,
Speaker 1: and I thought, well, well done, You've clarified what there
Speaker 1: was a lot of misinformation about following that interview. So
Speaker 1: you come back in the work. Everyone's happy. Then what happened.
Speaker 3: Yes, So what I had done during that interview is
Speaker 3: it was outside what had been authorized, but I didn't
Speaker 3: think it was as bad as it turned out to be.
Speaker 3: So I'd said two things. One was that all victims
Speaker 3: are equal, and I'd said that in my view, the
Speaker 3: policeman mister had cow towed to the family, allowing Scott's
Speaker 3: case to be the number one in the office to
Speaker 3: take priority over hundreds of others. Those two things. I thought,
Speaker 3: all victims are equal. I thought that's what everyone believed.
Speaker 3: But apparently that's not an acceptable phrase.
Speaker 1: Well if it's not, that should be and that should
Speaker 1: be the cornerstone of what policing is about. All victims
Speaker 1: should be traded equal.
Speaker 3: And the cow towing I knew. Well, it's a bit
Speaker 3: like remember earlier in now in my interview of view,
Speaker 3: I remember with the Darwin job my style. I came
Speaker 3: out and I said, I was asking, did anyone you
Speaker 3: know I would have been send if I was a man.
Speaker 3: Does anyone here have a spare penis one they're not
Speaker 3: using for a while that I can borrow and go
Speaker 3: and do this job. So similarly, because I had been
Speaker 3: at the meeting with the police minister, who gets invited there,
Speaker 3: I was wanting to be impressed. But I'd come away
Speaker 3: from that and I was saying around the office which
Speaker 3: is my style about the cow towing police minister, but
Speaker 3: nonetheless is what it is, and we get on with
Speaker 3: the job. So the day after the late line interview,
Speaker 3: when the mood changes seriously, is the police minister, which
Speaker 3: I would think because his police minister and much more
Speaker 3: powerfulan me. I thought it would be water off a
Speaker 3: ducks back. I thought he wouldn't like that Pam has
Speaker 3: said it, but he would see that only Pam had
Speaker 3: said it, and it would be water for ducks back. No,
Speaker 3: he took real exception to it, and I was to
Speaker 3: be put in my place, which I was, so that Yes,
Speaker 3: there was a reaction, such a strong reaction to that
Speaker 3: interview by the stablished groups that I mentioned, who who
Speaker 3: for all the right passionate concern they had stood together,
Speaker 3: and the mainstream media suggested that I was incompetent and homophobic,
Speaker 3: which is still sitting today a devastating just.
Speaker 1: Let me finish, sorry.
Speaker 3: Devastating for someone like me, like me, with my views
Speaker 3: about the quality of people, to have that vile allegation
Speaker 3: to be labeled by that viole allegation repeatedly. So, but
Speaker 3: that would have been bearable. We do a lot of
Speaker 3: tough stuff in the job, don't we. But what happened
Speaker 3: was it was my total political naivety was some and
Speaker 3: only after the interview did I did I piece together
Speaker 3: that why am I being ostracized? Because we I use
Speaker 3: the word elite, but I don't mean it above street cops.
Speaker 3: You know, we've a clarified that earlier. They're the yes,
Speaker 3: there's a yes and an executive type of position. So
Speaker 3: into that the void, if that's the right word. But
Speaker 3: left by my political naivety. There was no support for
Speaker 3: me internally, no support and that's because I worked out
Speaker 3: too late that ambitious people working at our elevated level
Speaker 3: above us, ambitious people would be relying on selection by
Speaker 3: the government for executive positions, and and very ambitious people
Speaker 3: who we who we were controlled by, we worked for,
Speaker 3: didn't want to be seen as supporting someone like me
Speaker 3: who had made this comment about a police minister.
Speaker 1: I can bring clarity to a lot of it because
Speaker 1: I was there seeing what was going on. Firstly, I
Speaker 1: thought it was just such an injustice where it was
Speaker 1: being touted that you were in competent investigator, and I think,
Speaker 1: you know, and let's fast forward the Scott Johnson matter.
Speaker 2: It's been resolved.
Speaker 1: I dare say a lot of it it's been resolved,
Speaker 1: is a lot of the work that you did in
Speaker 1: looking at the investigation to start with, and I don't
Speaker 1: think that should be ignored. But yeah, when people were
Speaker 1: saying that and the fact that our organization didn't back
Speaker 1: you one hundred percent disgusted me. The fact that with
Speaker 1: the different groups attacking you for being homophobic, I think
Speaker 1: I'm in a position to offer an opinion there given
Speaker 1: the fact that we're in a relationship. You're so far
Speaker 1: from homer phobe because it's not funny and that every
Speaker 1: victim should be treated equal. I don't think you did
Speaker 1: anything wrong. The only thing that got you into trouble
Speaker 1: is you criticized the minister and an ego was upset
Speaker 1: having said that in the office, and this is what
Speaker 1: I lost a lot of respect. I'm going to say
Speaker 1: this because I've sat on it for years and I
Speaker 1: lost so much respect for a particular person that I
Speaker 1: went and spoke to what was happening to you, and
Speaker 1: I said, it's an absolute disgrace how Pam's been treated
Speaker 1: over this matter. You know the quality of the person
Speaker 1: she is. And in response to this, the person said, look,
Speaker 1: I know she's good.
Speaker 2: That I was.
Speaker 1: Told by someone above me that don't throw your career
Speaker 1: away protecting her, and what type of person says that.
Speaker 1: I just looked at the person. I was just disgusted.
Speaker 1: I just said I think I said I'm disgusted that
Speaker 1: you would say that, but that was the attitude, and
Speaker 1: I lost a lot of respect for senior police over
Speaker 1: the way that you were hung out to dry on that.
Speaker 1: And I know, I know the effort that you put
Speaker 1: into the Scott Johnson matter, and I know you didn't
Speaker 1: have any biases. You were just saying what you thought
Speaker 1: fair and you were bided by what was said do
Speaker 1: the investigation. Okay, I'll do it, and you do it,
Speaker 1: did it to the best of your ability. So I
Speaker 1: apologize on behalf of yourself backs paks for how you
Speaker 1: were treated.
Speaker 3: Do you blend it was right? That apology back, Thank
Speaker 3: you for all those words of support, and yeah, but
Speaker 3: you don't have to apologize for them.
Speaker 1: Well, I was part of an organization and that really
Speaker 1: it just sickened me that we could just hang one
Speaker 1: of our own out to dry like you were hung
Speaker 1: out to dry on that one. I thought it was
Speaker 1: despicable and I know the impact it had on you.
Speaker 1: I know on the back of that, I'm just sort
Speaker 1: of moving forward a little bit here that you decided
Speaker 1: you're going to leave the police as a result of that.
Speaker 3: I sow a simple answer, though, of course, the process
Speaker 3: is much more complicated. So the answer is yes, in
Speaker 3: that I was emotionally distressed deeply by the betrayal, the
Speaker 3: internal betrayal by bosses. I believed I was in an
Speaker 3: ethical contract which is absorbed some shit, tough days, hard work,
Speaker 3: and for that you are in a system of support.
Speaker 3: There's support there, so that no longer existed for me.
Speaker 3: So simply put, though it's much more complicated, I agree
Speaker 3: with you.
Speaker 1: Yeah, well even and I know there was times when
Speaker 1: you took time off and I caught up with you,
Speaker 1: and I was trying to talk you into coming back
Speaker 1: into the police because we couldn't afford to lose people
Speaker 1: like yourself in the police and genuinely not just looking
Speaker 1: at for your interests. The police needed people like you
Speaker 1: in there. And I said that to senior police, I said,
Speaker 1: what are you doing letting her leave? What are you doing, like,
Speaker 1: let's make it right, let's get pamed back in the
Speaker 1: in the job. And there was no interest in it.
Speaker 1: It was just it's just And yeah, I lost a
Speaker 1: bit of love that I had for the cops on
Speaker 1: the way that they treated you, and it was shame.
Speaker 3: I lost my love. I was in love with it
Speaker 3: and I lost that. But I would like to, if
Speaker 3: it's not going to trigger too much, refer to what
Speaker 3: was done to you, and I don't think it doesn't
Speaker 3: represent as well if this just becomes a loving So
Speaker 3: I don't know, but I would like to go there.
Speaker 2: You say I deserved it hit the course.
Speaker 3: Switch because some people will think, oh, we just give
Speaker 3: them their privacy and say so, but it seems as
Speaker 3: appropriate time. What do you think do you blame Look.
Speaker 1: At young I know when we've discussed it, and I'd
Speaker 1: probably discussed it adnause him on what happened to me.
Speaker 1: But yeah, I'm happy for you to raise it because
Speaker 1: you knew what was going on. You know the politics,
Speaker 1: you know the dynamics, you know who I am, and
Speaker 1: you know what was what was going on. I dare
Speaker 1: say what what happened to me? And of course people
Speaker 1: if they haven't listened, it's a whimterial matter where my
Speaker 1: my career came to a crashing end over that. And
Speaker 1: I was criminally charged, convicted, appealed, and convicted for the
Speaker 1: horrendous crime of recording the conversation on my telephone and
Speaker 1: the place that had listening devices in there. Anyway, but
Speaker 1: that aside as you can see, I've let it go.
Speaker 1: I just I don't think it would have happened if
Speaker 1: you were still in the police, because I expected my colleagues,
Speaker 1: my peers to stand up for me and stand up
Speaker 1: strong for me on what happened, because it wasn't right
Speaker 1: the way I was treated, and I didn't have that,
Speaker 1: didn't have that support. I sat on Level nine, which
Speaker 1: is out the front of the headmaster's office basically for
Speaker 1: three months playing whale music and meditation. Is sitting in
Speaker 1: that room, I think not one hand, one finger I
Speaker 1: could count on my colleagues, my peers that came up
Speaker 1: to visit me, and the one person that did I
Speaker 1: could see him looking down the hallway in case a
Speaker 1: boss walked past and saw someone talking to me, and
Speaker 1: I just thought, really, is that that's what it's come
Speaker 1: to me?
Speaker 3: Yes, I'm surprised you have faith that if I had
Speaker 3: been in the job, perhaps you still would have been
Speaker 3: just for advocacy reasons, because what I learned through what
Speaker 3: happened with me is we we we wielded a lot
Speaker 3: of power we can take could take away people's freedom.
Speaker 3: We were entrusted with the most intimate confidences of families
Speaker 3: and uh and we thought we had some internal power,
Speaker 3: but we we didn't. We were fodder and the those
Speaker 3: above us and those ambitious ones with our eyes on
Speaker 3: the big price, they hold the power. So Jibil and
Speaker 3: I would have advocated for you with everything I had,
Speaker 3: but I don't have the faith that it would have
Speaker 3: made any difference because the power was held above us.
Speaker 3: And your example of what you did to try to
Speaker 3: give me practical help and stir some spine from the
Speaker 3: hierarchy for me, you know what you did and you failed.
Speaker 2: But I'm more a.
Speaker 1: Bull at the gate on situations like that, and I
Speaker 1: think you would have. I think you could have rallied
Speaker 1: support that I didn't happen. And maybe you couldn't because
Speaker 1: there were people that supported me, and you know it
Speaker 1: wasn't all lack of support, but the ones that supported
Speaker 1: me were victimized. Yes, just disgracefully. So yes, And we
Speaker 1: say this, and let's just put on record we both
Speaker 1: love their time in the New south West.
Speaker 4: Yes, and still best career because well.
Speaker 3: I'm hoping will end on that, but I want to
Speaker 3: if you were thinking and moving on, I just wanted
Speaker 3: to say the basic something really basic, but big message
Speaker 3: in it is, apart from you know, the hideous way
Speaker 3: you were treated, the saddest thing is relationships that you
Speaker 3: built up and the reputation, fearsome reputation and always relied
Speaker 3: upon experience from the bosses who asked you to do
Speaker 3: jobs they knew they asked you specifically because they knew
Speaker 3: how tough you were, peers who came to for advice,
Speaker 3: but most said the staff who loved and respected you
Speaker 3: and needed you there that those relationships got were broken
Speaker 3: because of how you were treated. That's the saddest thing.
Speaker 3: But let me finish. I can tell you're about to
Speaker 3: talk so podcast. But just the bare facts is if
Speaker 3: I died of a violent from a violent crime, I
Speaker 3: would want you on my case. So just make a
Speaker 3: note of that in case that happens. But I know
Speaker 3: absolutely all of those bosses would want the same.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 3: And that's as simple and as clear as it can be.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, and from a homicide to tech this point
Speaker 1: of view, there's not a greater compliment than someone to say, well,
Speaker 1: if I got murderer to investigate my murder, it.
Speaker 3: Would be nice if you turned up just before I
Speaker 3: got murdered. But if it's after.
Speaker 1: Well, it might be a way to get back in
Speaker 1: the cops.
Speaker 2: Invite me back. Now.
Speaker 1: The things that we talk about, and I think it's
Speaker 1: I've talked about it on this podcast obviously with other people,
Speaker 1: but you get it. You know who I am, and
Speaker 1: you know the organization, and you said about broken friendships
Speaker 1: and all that. I set high standards with friends like
Speaker 1: I support and I've learned a lot since I've left
Speaker 1: the Cops. I've met some interesting people, colorful people, characters,
Speaker 1: but loyalty is utmost and I've still got friends friends
Speaker 1: in the police. I won't say I've lost all the friends,
Speaker 1: but there were some people that I thought would support
Speaker 1: me no matter what the cost, no matter what the risk,
Speaker 1: as I would then didn't and that that hurt. That hurt,
Speaker 1: and I, you know, maybe patch it up at some stage.
Speaker 1: I've moved on. I'm enjoying, enjoying myself. But I think
Speaker 1: there comes with a responsibility of being a friend. That
Speaker 1: you're a friend not just for the good times. You're
Speaker 1: a friend for a bad times, and you're a friend
Speaker 1: that it might cost you, but that's what friendship and
Speaker 1: loyalty is all about so anyway we digress. This is
Speaker 1: me dissecting you. You flipped it on me, so regrets
Speaker 1: about the way you left, like you offer. You gave
Speaker 1: me a lot of advice and sorry, I'll talk about
Speaker 1: myself one more time because you know I like to
Speaker 1: talk about it.
Speaker 3: I just sit back. Oh, shut up, cross my legs.
Speaker 1: You supported me, You supported me when I went to court.
Speaker 1: You're always there for me. And there was others that wouldn't.
Speaker 1: Police were told not to turn up. They even they
Speaker 1: even had a protection group turn up to protect the
Speaker 1: witnesses that were going to give evidence against me because
Speaker 1: of my crew, which was my mother and my kids
Speaker 1: that were going to take out witnesses. But you were
Speaker 1: there and you publicly supported me, as did Nick Kaldos,
Speaker 1: Paul Jacob, Matt Moss, people that I respect. With what
Speaker 1: happened with what happened with you. I just thought it
Speaker 1: was sad that the way that it ended, because it
Speaker 1: just seemed so unfair what your career had stood for,
Speaker 1: how hard you worked, and then you sort.
Speaker 3: Of left, faded away. You went off in an explosion.
Speaker 3: No one could miss it. I just faded away.
Speaker 1: Well, well, I thought you would burn an explosion. But
Speaker 1: you did just basically fade away. And I say this,
Speaker 1: I honestly thought, I honestly thought you would be and
Speaker 1: this might be you know, you say unrealistic. I thought
Speaker 1: you would be commissioner at one stage you had the
Speaker 1: operational skills to run investigations, work on the investigations. You
Speaker 1: had that, but you had a of carving through the
Speaker 1: management that I've never never seen and was.
Speaker 3: That an end? And look at the results?
Speaker 2: Well, I was never a good judge of character, look
Speaker 2: at my relationship.
Speaker 3: Can I put in a plug for Karen Web?
Speaker 2: Yes? Please do?
Speaker 3: Please do so good?
Speaker 2: Okay, we're talking about we're talking this is.
Speaker 1: A podcast, not a private conversation. We're talking about the
Speaker 1: current New South Wales Police Commissioner, Karen Web and our
Speaker 1: guests on the Eye Catch Callers podcast. Retired Detective Chief
Speaker 1: Inspector Family Young has asked to put in a plug
Speaker 1: for Karen.
Speaker 3: Web, which which is how terrific it is that finally
Speaker 3: there's a woman in the top top job that she's
Speaker 3: been an exceptional manager over many decades. She's in that
Speaker 3: position with a lot of experience and she's a very
Speaker 3: nice person. I've noticed she's been criticized by her appearance
Speaker 3: in the media, how she looks or how she speaks.
Speaker 3: Honest to God, wouldn't the public prefer to have a
Speaker 3: highly competent, experienced officer there who might not be across
Speaker 3: the latest media image than someone who's very media savvy
Speaker 3: and doesn't have the rest isn't the package? And I
Speaker 3: would like to think if anyone in the job listens
Speaker 3: to this, that they kind of think of why she
Speaker 3: might be being criticized and support especially the women out there.
Speaker 3: But it shouldn't just come down to that, should it. No?
Speaker 1: And I'm glad you spoke up there. I've been watching
Speaker 1: and I've done a couple of things on the media
Speaker 1: of current current investigations, and it was sort of fed
Speaker 1: to me like the carrot was dangled there for me
Speaker 1: to attack Karen Web. And I didn't want to attack
Speaker 1: Karen Web. I thought it was unjust some of the
Speaker 1: criticism that she was getting and my observation, knowing the
Speaker 1: organization as it is, I could be wrong. I'm looking
Speaker 1: from the outside, so I'm saying that, and I want
Speaker 1: to clarify that before I say this. It's not no
Speaker 1: inside knowledge. I don't have anything to do with the police.
Speaker 1: But I wonder if she's getting the support from the
Speaker 1: people around that, because I feel like she's it's almost
Speaker 1: like she's been set up to fail on some of
Speaker 1: the things.
Speaker 3: Well, we've seen that happen before, and we have talked
Speaker 3: in our matters about literally the politics at that level.
Speaker 3: And doesn't mean to say every day they're in there
Speaker 3: plotting against each other, but honestly, it's such a big
Speaker 3: prize now, it's paid very well, there's a lot of
Speaker 3: status and networking around it. It does seem to get
Speaker 3: vicious there, and we learned that earlier through someone we
Speaker 3: both respect. Nick Cardas, is a good example of that.
Speaker 3: So what a sad state of affairs if Karen is
Speaker 3: vulnerable to that sort of thing that she's certainly not
Speaker 3: a vulnerable person, but you can't do the or but alone.
Speaker 1: Well, I never work with her in my career, but
Speaker 1: people that I respect have said said good things about her.
Speaker 1: You're saying good things about her, and I take it that.
Speaker 1: And if you've got the commission, that's a good person,
Speaker 1: like inherently good person, a person of integrity.
Speaker 2: I think that.
Speaker 1: Carries so much, so much more reading to whatever you
Speaker 1: want what I'm saying here, but having someone with some integrity, Yes,
Speaker 1: that position is so important. You're running the police, you would.
Speaker 3: Think it's essential as a police officer, because she's still
Speaker 3: a police officer. You think if you think it's essential
Speaker 3: that police are ethical, that they have character, that they
Speaker 3: are decent, than our commissioner of police who has those characteristics,
Speaker 3: surely that's a good choice.
Speaker 1: So let's hope we're all winners. If she's doing a
Speaker 1: good job and moving the organization organization for.
Speaker 3: It, and if there's any sexism misogyny involved in the criticism,
Speaker 3: for my god, there'll be hell to pay. Honestly, as
Speaker 3: a country, aren't we passed that? Didn't we learn something?
Speaker 2: We should be way past that, way past that.
Speaker 1: Okay, we look back at our careers and I think
Speaker 1: you'd share with me you enjoyed every day of it.
Speaker 1: It was an interesting time. And absolutely no regrets about
Speaker 1: taking our life down the path of being career police officers.
Speaker 3: No regrets at all. No, it's such a thrilling experience
Speaker 3: and it's so satisfying and purposeful, and I would really
Speaker 3: recommend it. And there are some very good working conditions
Speaker 3: and the pays decent, So for all sorts of practical
Speaker 3: and adventurous reasons, I really would encourage people.
Speaker 1: Well, I'm exactly the same. I think, if you want
Speaker 1: an interesting life, join the police and you're going to
Speaker 1: get an interesting life. If you throw yourself the policing,
Speaker 1: that's going to open up doors and you're going to
Speaker 1: have experiences that you never never thought.
Speaker 2: Would be possible.
Speaker 1: And you look back at your life, you look back
Speaker 1: at our careers and think, did I really do that?
Speaker 1: And so many things. What saddens me today is that
Speaker 1: police are really struggling to recruit people, and I know
Speaker 1: not just in New South Wales but across the country
Speaker 1: and some regions or some commands they're equating seventy percent understaff,
Speaker 1: and that just perpetuates the problems because the people left
Speaker 1: there are going to have to carry the lad What
Speaker 1: can we say, as people who have been there, done that,
Speaker 1: come through the police career and we're still standing and
Speaker 1: we look back at it, why aren't people joining the
Speaker 1: police these days? Or what can we do to encourage
Speaker 1: people to join the police.
Speaker 3: I don't know the formal research reasons, though I do know,
Speaker 3: for instance, the military is suffering as well I wonder
Speaker 3: is everyone after some sort of office intellectual position. I
Speaker 3: wonder if that's part of it, not so much physical
Speaker 3: hands on Maybe all the scare tactics used by the
Speaker 3: media make people think you life is threatened every day
Speaker 3: in the police, which it is not. So yes, I'm
Speaker 3: at a loss.
Speaker 1: I think if people understand policing, because they probably see that,
Speaker 1: they'll see detectives on high profile cases, they'll see the
Speaker 1: uniform police. But there is so many different things you
Speaker 1: can do in policing.
Speaker 3: Yeah, the variety, Yes, and you get to pitch yourself
Speaker 3: against experiences and challenges that you would not get in
Speaker 3: any other industry, any other profession, and so yes, you
Speaker 3: develop all sorts of skills, and it is.
Speaker 1: A very.
Speaker 3: It does require a lot of intelligence to do the job.
Speaker 3: People mustn't forget that because you are communicating and convincing
Speaker 3: and winning over lawyers and convincing judges of the evidence
Speaker 3: and things. So there's a it's just well, well, it
Speaker 3: uses every part of you.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that's fair to say, and I always
Speaker 1: look at people that, And I know, prior to joining
Speaker 1: the police sometimes if I was working in the building industry,
Speaker 1: I didn't feel like going to work. I can't remember
Speaker 1: that in policing, like there was times there and I
Speaker 1: think we've all experienced this. When you're a young detective,
Speaker 1: you didn't want to take a day off because you
Speaker 1: didn't want to miss out on the excitement that was there.
Speaker 1: And I'm sure that's the same for uniform police or
Speaker 1: tactical police. There's so many things, so I want to
Speaker 1: shout out because it just saddens me that we can't
Speaker 1: get people in policing. And let me tell you, and
Speaker 1: these are two of us that have been through and yeah,
Speaker 1: our careers didn't and the way we thought they did,
Speaker 1: and we're still saying we love the job. Actually I
Speaker 1: am not at court criminally charged like it didn't end
Speaker 1: but buttons for punishment, but we still loved it. So yeah,
Speaker 1: and I hope maybe the recruiting, maybe they've got to
Speaker 1: start advertising and then explain what goes on it and
Speaker 1: put instead of these statue bosses up there doing the media,
Speaker 1: at least show the junior police that are out there
Speaker 1: doing the actual work and giving them some exposure and
Speaker 1: people can aspire to be those type of people.
Speaker 3: Yes, well, I think they stopped the average police officer
Speaker 3: doing any media stand ups after you, after your experience
Speaker 3: and my experience in the media. So I think that's
Speaker 3: why the higher end bosses are being seen more regularly now.
Speaker 1: And I think the higher end bosses and again this then,
Speaker 1: dear me to it's their own personal ego too. They
Speaker 1: don't want people other people that are actually doing the
Speaker 1: work speaking to the media. Now that'll go, oh yeah,
Speaker 1: he's dubiling again. But I honestly believe that, for the
Speaker 1: life of me, I cannot see why someone that's been
Speaker 1: given the responsibility to run a murder investigation, I you,
Speaker 1: a detective sergeant or an experienced detective senior constable, can't
Speaker 1: be trusted enough to then look down the camera and
Speaker 1: speak to the media about about the investigation. Because there's
Speaker 1: one person knows more about the investigation than anyone else,
Speaker 1: and that's certainly not the boss. It's a person running
Speaker 1: the investigation. So maybe that type of thing they've got
Speaker 1: to look at to encourage people to.
Speaker 2: Aspire to join the place. Well said, thank you On that.
Speaker 1: Note, Where what do we talk about now?
Speaker 3: Something light? Please?
Speaker 2: Who else do we.
Speaker 1: Want to attack, support or whatever? Life outside the cops.
Speaker 1: How did you feel when you've got out of the.
Speaker 3: Cops, lost, confused, vulnerable. Yeah, I didn't realize how much
Speaker 3: being cop was in my blood because I've always thought
Speaker 3: of myself differently. I like the arts, I love studying philosophy,
Speaker 3: I being a woman in working in areas where you're
Speaker 3: basically alone anyway, I not other many other women. You
Speaker 3: you do already think or I thought of myself as
Speaker 3: separate to the machinery and the club like nature. Yeah,
Speaker 3: but when it was no longer available to me, those
Speaker 3: absences were tangible to me, including one thing took me
Speaker 3: a while. I don't know, I overthink everything, but that
Speaker 3: was good at one stage. But you know this, I
Speaker 3: became aware of there's just something not right in the
Speaker 3: in the day, there's something missing. And I've named some
Speaker 3: things just now, but something I couldn't name until I
Speaker 3: worked it out. It was testosterone. So it is an
Speaker 3: incredible It was an incredible discovery to me that the
Speaker 3: working in male dominated environment for so long had had
Speaker 3: a physical presence that I no longer had. Yeah, so
Speaker 3: that was it. I mean, and I don't mean I
Speaker 3: just yeah, I don't mean a sort of demonstration of
Speaker 3: testosterone anyway. I mean, I mean just just that that
Speaker 3: beautiful difference between genders and all the spectrum of genders
Speaker 3: that that might be.
Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, well I've asked that question with a lot
Speaker 1: of guests on here, and they've never raised testosterone.
Speaker 2: What do you miss?
Speaker 3: So that's why I know that I'm a little bit different.
Speaker 2: What do you miss about police?
Speaker 3: What's the question again?
Speaker 2: Testosterone?
Speaker 1: But I think being different does make you a better
Speaker 1: police officer too, And like just having a different view
Speaker 1: on things. And you're talking about you studying philosophy and
Speaker 1: you put me onto that practical philosophy course in Surrey Hills.
Speaker 3: I failed.
Speaker 2: I didn't fail.
Speaker 3: I didn't get the fifty.
Speaker 2: No, I didn't file. I was busy.
Speaker 1: Now I didn't file. I finished the course. But I
Speaker 1: got a lot from that ambitions. Now, what do you
Speaker 1: want to do with your love?
Speaker 3: So so I'm just a social justice type of person.
Speaker 3: So I've always I've had some shame around my country
Speaker 3: and what we do with refugees and asylum seekers. I've
Speaker 3: always thought we could be more generous. So my little
Speaker 3: contribution to organizations that support those people in need, So
Speaker 3: just through meals or conversational English or helping with bureaucratic forms,
Speaker 3: explaining how our infrastructure works and government works and things
Speaker 3: like that. So I find that very satisfying. I'm sure
Speaker 3: I get more out of it than they do. I'm
Speaker 3: not doing any high level anything. I'm not convinced I
Speaker 3: could ever work for a man again. Uh. I travel
Speaker 3: a lot. I travel a lot. I love exploring my curiosity,
Speaker 3: which got me on the job primarily, really and sustain
Speaker 3: me is still with me. I love learning about other
Speaker 3: cultures and meeting interesting people. I prefer people to be
Speaker 3: interesting than nice.
Speaker 2: That's I think we've both followed that path.
Speaker 3: But bottom line, and lots of people fudget once they're out.
Speaker 3: I mean, there's a lot of a lot of us
Speaker 3: become hermits. The when you when you deal with life
Speaker 3: and death repeatedly, up close in all its detail and
Speaker 3: color and smell and angst, and that wonderful positivity that
Speaker 3: the families can have, that courage they share once you've
Speaker 3: been up close, once you're in that that's in your face.
Speaker 3: It's at this station impossible for me to find anything
Speaker 3: as satisfying. And I think that's just how it is.
Speaker 3: That's not a curse. I think that's a sort of
Speaker 3: privilege that I've been there, done that helped people, had
Speaker 3: thrills in my own life. It's thrilling. It developed me.
Speaker 3: It made me a much more articulate person, a much
Speaker 3: more compassionate person. So given me wonderful, wonderful things, and
Speaker 3: it's irreplaceable. But everything has to come to an end.
Speaker 3: If what was done to us wasn't done to us
Speaker 3: and we would be looking, you would we would have
Speaker 3: to be out of the job at some stage. So
Speaker 3: these processes that we're going through that I'm trying trying
Speaker 3: to explain in some way, it has to be faced. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 3: well it.
Speaker 1: Was almost the way that we we operated in our career.
Speaker 1: It was always going to win some way.
Speaker 3: Yeah yeah.
Speaker 1: And I never saw you or I marching out with
Speaker 1: a band plane as they do some people attire just
Speaker 1: for some reason. I just didn't think that was going
Speaker 1: to happen.
Speaker 3: No, no, no, I.
Speaker 1: Think I've you've articulated very well what policing meant, and
Speaker 1: that I just say what I was doing. I still
Speaker 1: felt like as a good person because I'm doing something
Speaker 1: each day, and that's when I left struggle with that.
Speaker 3: Yes, that is so purpose.
Speaker 1: I might be a fuck up in every aspect of
Speaker 1: my life. But look, I'm doing some good. Yeah, and
Speaker 1: that made me feel better and I missed.
Speaker 3: That purpose and other things have purpose to even being
Speaker 3: a good father, which you still are in the pizza
Speaker 3: well and July don't need you, but I hope to be.
Speaker 3: I'm a good aunt. I hope I am to twelve
Speaker 3: nieces and nephews whenever they let me in their busy
Speaker 3: life and things. But satisfaction of what we've done, what
Speaker 3: we had the privilege to do, the honor to do,
Speaker 3: is irreplaceable. On that note, could I just say.
Speaker 1: I never could control you, so go on, young, Yes,
Speaker 1: I just want to you can't have this job.
Speaker 2: It's my job.
Speaker 3: The other heart wrenching thing, but heartwarming too, is just
Speaker 3: how close and how much I loved and love my
Speaker 3: team members who always worked so hard or always put
Speaker 3: up with me making them work hard, whichever came first,
Speaker 3: whichever worked, and just yeah, just amazing efforts. The community
Speaker 3: should know they have amazingly passionate experts out there, but
Speaker 3: those experts need to be supported and they need some
Speaker 3: time off occasionally. Yep, and and yeah.
Speaker 1: We obviously enjoyed, enjoy their policing, and we know we're
Speaker 1: just passing it on what legacy. I think you taught
Speaker 1: me that that's what legacy you leave in a position.
Speaker 1: What's the legacy you've left, and you just pass on
Speaker 1: that bat into the next group of people. And we
Speaker 1: know that there's people out there working. They're probably smarter
Speaker 1: and harder working than us that are out there doing
Speaker 1: what we were trying to do during our career.
Speaker 3: I don't know about the smarter and harder, but they're definitely.
Speaker 1: They wouldn't be that they might be, all right, I
Speaker 1: want to I want to finish this on a serious note.
Speaker 1: I've really enjoyed the chat. I know it's been a
Speaker 1: working progress getting you here to talk. So many people
Speaker 1: have asked me when am I getting Pam on the
Speaker 1: on the podcast. I think the way you represent policing
Speaker 1: is something to be proud of. I'm proud of the
Speaker 1: fact of how you represent policing and I hate breaking
Speaker 1: it down like you're a good police officer because you're
Speaker 1: a woman. You stood out in any field. But what
Speaker 1: a great role model. And that's what saddens me that
Speaker 1: when you left the police, because you were such a
Speaker 1: good role model and I know so many policewomen that
Speaker 1: looked up to you and what you did, and you
Speaker 1: walk to the booty of your own drum. But you
Speaker 1: did it without compromise, you did it with integrity. So
Speaker 1: congratulations on your career. And I'm not just saying that
Speaker 1: because it's you. I congratulate everyone that's put in a proper,
Speaker 1: proper career in policing. And I think it's pretty good.
Speaker 1: And I don't want to get too emotional here that
Speaker 1: we've been through a relationship. We've had our ups and downs,
Speaker 1: but we're still friends, and I think that's a really
Speaker 1: good thing.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's a terrific things, and I'm sure we will
Speaker 3: to the end. I feel solidly that's the case. And yeah,
Speaker 3: so I need to know when you get cremated, where
Speaker 3: do you want your ashes spread? I think that's it's
Speaker 3: relevant in this time.
Speaker 4: I'm not sure how I'm going out this way, how
Speaker 4: I'm going to go out at this stage, I don't know.
Speaker 1: I might just wander off and no one will ever
Speaker 1: see me again. But no, it is good that we
Speaker 1: can have the friendship and we had that intense relationship
Speaker 1: and good times and I know you've always got my
Speaker 1: back and I've got your back, So I think that's
Speaker 1: a nice message to leave it with.
Speaker 3: To for sure mutual respect absolutely and dare I say
Speaker 3: love Jubilae.
Speaker 2: Thanks for coming on. Pat really enjoyed the chat. Cheers.
Speaker 3: Thanks so much, Bebe.
Speaker 2: Pam Young.
Speaker 1: We obviously know each other very well and it's always
Speaker 1: scary having an next come into a podcast studio to
Speaker 1: talk about life in the past. But I hope people
Speaker 1: will listen to the podcast understand why she was such
Speaker 1: an impressive police officer and such a shame that she's
Speaker 1: left New South Wales Police. I think it it's a
Speaker 1: lesser organization for it. On a personal note, I just
Speaker 1: think it's great. But two people who have been in
Speaker 1: an intense relationship like we were that came to an
Speaker 1: end can sit down and have a chat and still
Speaker 1: have each other's back.
Speaker 2: So probably the fears were unfounded. She didn't crush me
Speaker 2: too much.
Speaker 1: I hope people don't look at me differently after seeing
Speaker 1: how Pam speaks to me.
Speaker 2: But what a great role model for a police officer.
Speaker 1: I don't think there's anyone better than retired Detective Chief
Speaker 1: Inspector Pamily Young.