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Speaker 1: The public has had a long held fascination with detectives.

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Speaker 1: Detective see a side of life. The average person is

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Speaker 1: never exposed her I spent thirty four years as a cop.

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Speaker 1: For twenty five of those years, I was catching killers.

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Speaker 1: That's what I did for a living. I was a

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Speaker 1: homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead,

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Speaker 1: I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated.

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Speaker 1: The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories

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Speaker 1: from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw

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Speaker 1: and honest, just like the people I talk to. Some

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Speaker 1: of the content and language might be confronting. That's because

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Speaker 1: no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged.

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Speaker 1: Join me now as I take you into this world.

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Speaker 1: Welcome back to Eye Catch Killers. For part four of

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Speaker 1: my chat, we've retired Detective Chief Inspector Pamely Young. If

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Speaker 1: you happen to miss the first three episodes of this chat,

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Speaker 1: you might pick up on there's a bit of two

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Speaker 1: in them throwing between Pam and I. Not only we

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Speaker 1: work together for twenty years or so in homicide, we

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Speaker 1: also were in a relationship and lived together for quite

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Speaker 1: some time. So there's a bit of familiarity.

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Speaker 2: Is that the word there?

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Speaker 1: So this last part, Pam, we're going to talk about

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Speaker 1: we've got a sense of who you were as a detective,

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Speaker 1: and we're going to talk about an investigation that's had

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Speaker 1: a big impact on you. It's been very publicly discussed

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Speaker 1: and that's the Scott Johnson matter. Will break that down

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Speaker 1: that investigation. I just want to say, and I mean this,

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Speaker 1: and it's important that I get across when we talk

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Speaker 1: about and I think I mentioned it at the introduction

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Speaker 1: that I thought of myself as a dedicated, driven detective,

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Speaker 1: but I couldn't keep up the intensity that you displayed

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Speaker 1: when you're on an investigation. And I say full credit

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Speaker 1: to you, Others might say, well, there's something wrong with you.

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Speaker 1: I think it's something you should be proud of. To

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Speaker 1: give you an understanding of the work that you did

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Speaker 1: on the Scott Johnson matter. I just want to relay

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Speaker 1: this incident or series of incidents. It was I saw

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Speaker 1: you on a Friday afternoon. I was working out of

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Speaker 1: the Unsolved Homicide on an investigation at the time. I

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Speaker 1: saw you a Friday afternoon in the Unsolved Homicide office.

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Speaker 1: Were on the same floor and said goodbye and walked

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Speaker 1: out the office. I was going through an interesting time

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Speaker 1: in life, didn't have much to do in my life,

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Speaker 1: so I came back into the office on Saturday to

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Speaker 1: work on some investigations, even though it was my day off.

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Speaker 1: And I see you still at the same desk, still

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Speaker 1: wearing the same clothes. On the Saturday morning, I gone, Pam,

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Speaker 1: what are you up to? What are you doing here?

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Speaker 1: Have you gone home? And you said no, I've got

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Speaker 1: to get this done. And you didn't even have time

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Speaker 1: to look up or talk to me.

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Speaker 2: You just kept typing.

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Speaker 1: So I spent the day there. I think I gave

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Speaker 1: you my lunch. I felt sorry for you. I bought

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Speaker 1: my lunch in because it wasn't many shops open around headquarters.

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Speaker 2: On the weekend.

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Speaker 1: And I said, now make sure you go home like

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Speaker 1: I've seen you work overnight before, and I knew you

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Speaker 1: were capable of putting in the twenty four hours shift.

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Speaker 1: Then sadly, I get back there on Sunday walking there's

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Speaker 1: no one else in the office, but there's Pam still

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Speaker 1: sitting at the same desk, still working on the same

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Speaker 1: Scott Johnson manor the effort that you're putting into that,

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Speaker 1: and I got cranky at you. I said, you're a

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Speaker 1: lunatic young what are you doing here? You've got to sleep,

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Speaker 1: and you've gone, I'll go sleep in the car. I

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Speaker 1: can sleep in the car and the car park, which

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Speaker 1: we've done quite quite often. It's not healthy, but we've

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Speaker 1: done that just to get an hour's kip. And then

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Speaker 1: about lunchtime you were annoying hell out of me, and

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Speaker 1: you were you were remarried at that stage, and I

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Speaker 1: didn't want to just physically drag you out of the

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Speaker 1: office and drop you home, so I said, look, I'm

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Speaker 1: even going to drop you home because you're not driving

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Speaker 1: or your husband's going to pick you up. And I

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Speaker 1: didn't leave until you left that day. And I think, so,

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Speaker 1: you're not good at maths, but you know, probably forty

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Speaker 1: eight hours straight working on that investigation.

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Speaker 3: Yes, I think that's a slightly underdone number. But I

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Speaker 3: just want to pull you up on something you've said

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Speaker 3: a few times now about my intensity is more than yours.

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Speaker 3: That's not true. You were so intense. We were equals

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Speaker 3: equals at a high level equals. So no, I wasn't

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Speaker 3: more intense. What strength you had was an ability to

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Speaker 3: switch off. My strength was holding in there until the

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Speaker 3: job was finished done, and then I'd luxuriate, luxuriate in nothingness,

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Speaker 3: whereas you were extremely intense, the same as me, but

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Speaker 3: with an ability to switch off and be the dad

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Speaker 3: and attend to practical things. But you never your weakness

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Speaker 3: was never being able to luxuriate. Auste is a word

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Speaker 3: that comes to mind. I think my mother called you

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Speaker 3: that when she first met.

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Speaker 1: I didn't know what the word meant. I'm not sure

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Speaker 1: it telling me Garrett me, I just said thank you.

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Speaker 3: So it's yeah, so, I look, thank you so much

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Speaker 3: for your compliments. But yeah, I only ever felt that

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Speaker 3: our intensity was the same and and worked well for

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Speaker 3: the community.

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Speaker 2: Punish themselves. But yeah, yeah, So I raised that.

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Speaker 1: With the Scott Johnson matter. And do you want to

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Speaker 1: just talk us through your involvement in the Scott Johnson

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Speaker 1: matter what it was about? Right?

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Speaker 3: Well, it started very simply with a love story between

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Speaker 3: Scott Johnson and another UNI student at that stage, Michael Noon.

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Speaker 3: Michael was an Australian citizen. They met, I think it

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Speaker 3: was in England and Felling fell in love and Scott

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Speaker 3: moved to Australia to live be the partner of Michael.

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Speaker 3: On the brink of Scott getting his Australian citizenship, he

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Speaker 3: was originally from an American He was an American citizen.

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Speaker 3: On the eve of Scott receiving his Australian citizenship, he

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Speaker 3: was he was found dead over and naked at the

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Speaker 3: bottom of a sixty meter cliff at north Head on

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Speaker 3: the I think it's the western side and that was

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Speaker 3: in yes, nineteen eighty eight. So that case was given

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Speaker 3: to me in twenty thirteen.

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Speaker 2: Unsolved.

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Speaker 3: Yes, yes, once I was in. Yes, as a cold

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Speaker 3: case you in.

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Speaker 1: Your capacity is working unsolved. Was had look at the

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Speaker 1: had to look at the investigation.

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Speaker 3: Yes, I was the boss of all active investigations in

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Speaker 3: the cold case. So it was given to me after

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Speaker 3: the police Minister had had made a call to the

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Speaker 3: boss of the squad and wanted to prioritize a reinvestigation

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Speaker 3: of Scott Johnson's death. So that I understand. That came

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Speaker 3: about because Scott had an older brother, Steve, and Steve

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Speaker 3: loved Scott, and he also though had he was a

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Speaker 3: wealthy man, well connected in America with the Kennedy family

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Speaker 3: and the intellectual and political elite there, and he of

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Speaker 3: course had hopes that his brother's death, which was unresolved

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Speaker 3: at that point. It had there was a suicide finding

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Speaker 3: by the coroner, the first coroner, and then there was

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Speaker 3: an open finding, and then Steve was aiming to have

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Speaker 3: a third potentially a third coronial inquest and certainly a rigorous,

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Speaker 3: more rigorous investigation into Scott's death. And he went about

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Speaker 3: that by asking for a meeting with the police minister,

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Speaker 3: which the police minister gave him. I was a little

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Speaker 3: bit surprised by that because I knew other families are

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Speaker 3: the next to kin who had asked to meet with

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Speaker 3: the police minister and never had any luck. So I

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Speaker 3: guess it was a message, a strong message to me

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Speaker 3: and my boss and other you know, the hierarchy at

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Speaker 3: State Crime Command that this man had influence.

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Speaker 1: Okay, so on the on the back of that, and

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Speaker 1: just let me clarify, we've unsolved homicide because I've worked

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Speaker 1: there for a short time myself, and they understand the

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Speaker 1: workings of it. There's a lot of unsolved investigations. We're

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Speaker 1: talking hundreds, I don't know the exact figure, but unsolved

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Speaker 1: suspicious deaths matters that need to be reinvestigated. So on

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Speaker 1: the back of that representation, you started looking at the

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Speaker 1: death of Scott Johnson and you prepare the brief of

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Speaker 1: evidence and went to inquest again.

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Speaker 3: So when the Scott's death came to me, I was

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Speaker 3: also a little bit surprised because I'd been asked to

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Speaker 3: update the policy we had about which cases of our

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Speaker 3: list of over six hundred unsolved cases, which cases are

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Speaker 3: done before others or based on solvability factors, And my

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Speaker 3: boss had asked me to write this policy clearly treating

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Speaker 3: all victims as equals. So when I at the same

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Speaker 3: time I was asked to take on this Scott's death

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Speaker 3: as a priority, I was resistant to it on principle

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Speaker 3: of all victims being equal, But anyway, I got stuck

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Speaker 3: into it again with a good team. What then happened

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Speaker 3: was a phenomenon to me. I hadn't seen it done

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Speaker 3: quite this way, and it had a little bit of,

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Speaker 3: I think, an progressive American media approach, which was joining

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Speaker 3: forces with mainstream media and other interested parties. So gay

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Speaker 3: rights lobby groups joining with the Johnson family in moving

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Speaker 3: towards a larger investigation and labeling Scott's death absolutely as

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Speaker 3: a gay hate crime, whereas I hadn't determined through evidence

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Speaker 3: or facts that it was necessarily a gay hate crime.

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Speaker 3: I was looking at it as a possibility, but with

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Speaker 3: that theme or concern I call it a theme, but

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Speaker 3: most definitely a concern in the community, particularly the LGBTQ community,

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Speaker 3: that deaths of from that community historically so retrospective concern

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Speaker 3: that there were some cases that were left unsolved through

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Speaker 3: neglect of the police, intentional neglect of the police, or

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Speaker 3: even being covered up by the police. So what I

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Speaker 3: saw happening was this joining together of these interested parties

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Speaker 3: which ended up having a lot of weight. So the

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Speaker 3: Johnson family with their connections mainstream media, and then also

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Speaker 3: LGBTIQ media and gay rights lobby groups, all very articulate

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Speaker 3: with their concerns and heartfelt and passionate.

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Speaker 1: And I think both you and I would acknowledge what

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Speaker 1: you said that science, whether it's even just unconscious pass

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Speaker 1: but some investigations in the past probably weren't done well.

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Speaker 3: I mean, the whole the whole start of overlookd king

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Speaker 3: my minority groups is and the gay community was that

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Speaker 3: in the past, was it was actually legal to be homosexual.

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Speaker 3: We can't forget that's not a long time ago. As

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Speaker 3: shameful as that is, it's not a long time ago.

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Speaker 3: And even when the law changes, it doesn't mean the

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Speaker 3: public's view has changed and police and everything exactly, and

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Speaker 3: police are drawn from the public. So their concerns were

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Speaker 3: valid in a general sense. It's when it came down

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Speaker 3: to specific cases, I guess, and scooping up Scott in

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Speaker 3: that as a gay hate crime. But it was a

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Speaker 3: very clever campaign and mechanism to keep it in the spotlight.

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Speaker 3: So they were over over three hundred originating media stories

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Speaker 3: on it, over three hundred I mean, I don't mean

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Speaker 3: a story and then passed on multiple times. Over three

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Speaker 3: hundred originating him then passed on, so thousands of them

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Speaker 3: there were that became. I think our number was about

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Speaker 3: eighty eight. Particular cases were of concern, but just to

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Speaker 3: I guess illustrate how significant Scott's death became as part

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Speaker 3: of the campaign, was of the let's say three hundred

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Speaker 3: and twenty media stories, one third was about Scott. So

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Speaker 3: of eighty eight potential unsolved victims, one third of all

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Speaker 3: articles on Scott. So I think that's just a clear

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Speaker 3: demonstration there. So there was a lot of a lot

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Speaker 3: of pressure at work to deliver, to deliver well and

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Speaker 3: to explain to the bosses. It's the only case I've

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Speaker 3: ever known that the Police Minister took personal and specific

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Speaker 3: interest in He was being included in emails that were

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Speaker 3: a dressed to me from Stephen Johnson but CC to

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Speaker 3: the Police Minister. I've never had that before.

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Speaker 1: You know how I would push on some of the

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Speaker 1: issues I had with the bearable thing. And yes, yeah,

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Speaker 1: we had the march on Parliament four times to give

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Speaker 1: Parliament a minister to get interested in them.

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Speaker 3: And if I understand or remember correctly, I do believe

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Speaker 3: that was one of the families of which there's a

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Speaker 3: series of families with the serial nature of that job,

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Speaker 3: who had asked to meet the minister. Yeah, and I

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Speaker 3: think they I think they had been unsuccessful success yes,

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Speaker 3: so yes, and others like that. So anyway, I guess

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Speaker 3: it was what it was. That's what we're dealing with.

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Speaker 3: So where that goes then is there is a third inquest,

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Speaker 3: which is the only other case that's had a third

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Speaker 3: inquest is the Lindy Chamberlain case. You may remember that way,

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Speaker 3: So it was quite a phenomenon to have this third inquest,

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Speaker 3: and the third inquest determined that Scott had been the

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Speaker 3: victim of the gay hate crime.

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Speaker 1: I think it's we probably should inform the listeners to

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Speaker 1: the person by the name of Scott White has been

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Speaker 1: convicted of the manslaughter of Scott Johnson. It's my understanding

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Speaker 1: that he came forward with a confession in twenty twenty

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Speaker 1: three out of the blue, and that when the Supreme

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Speaker 1: Court judge handed down the sentencing, he said that the

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Speaker 1: matter wasn't linked to a gay hate crime. Is that

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Speaker 1: correct my understanding of it.

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Speaker 3: That is correct, yes, yeah.

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Speaker 1: And another interesting point on that particular conviction, the confession,

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Speaker 1: and this I believe because I was following it. I

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Speaker 1: believe it came out in court that the confession, the

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Speaker 1: information contained in the confession was already readily available to

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Speaker 1: the public through the media.

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Speaker 3: That's right, there weren't. There wasn't an element or any

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Speaker 3: elements that could not have been read in the media,

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Speaker 3: which is a bit unusual. There's usually holdback which only

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Speaker 3: the killer knows about. So look, but it's had such

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Speaker 3: a long and arduous history that matter and bore Scott

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Speaker 3: really deserves some rest. So let's hope that the conviction

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Speaker 3: is safe. That would be really good for everybody. So

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Speaker 3: in the mix of all that with what I've said

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Speaker 3: was my understanding of how cases are prioritized, my personal view,

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Speaker 3: and the policy about all victims being treated equally. In

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Speaker 3: the mix of all that and all the bad publicity

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Speaker 3: about how terrible police were, I was asked to do

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Speaker 3: an interview with Late Line on the ABC. It's a

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Speaker 3: current affairs program, and Emma Alberici was going to be

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Speaker 3: the interviewer on that particular night. I was. I agreed

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Speaker 3: and was keen because of the bad publicity that I

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Speaker 3: thought I could bring knowledge of us case.

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Speaker 2: Explain it, explain the situation, put it, put it.

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Speaker 3: Face to the bad media messages and yeah. So uh

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Speaker 3: so I agreed and did that and it was yes,

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Speaker 3: so we went ahead. Now, of course that was all

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Speaker 3: approved right up the hierarchy and to the you know,

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Speaker 3: the head of the media unit as well. So I did.

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Speaker 3: I did the interview, and I was told the the

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Speaker 3: Commissioner of Police was relaxed about it, and and then

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Speaker 3: the mood changed. So what I had.

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Speaker 1: Can I just give some speaking on that. I was

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Speaker 1: up at Port Macquaria. I was working on the Tyrole matter.

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Speaker 1: But my parents lived up there at the time, and

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Speaker 1: I watched watch that interview that you did with my father,

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Speaker 1: who was up in the public service when he was working.

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Speaker 1: He sat there and he said, wow, so impressive. I

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Speaker 1: was sitting there, going, you've nailed it, young. I think

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Speaker 1: the way that you came across professional and you were

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Speaker 1: just giving an objective view on it. It wasn't you're

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Speaker 1: against the Scott Johnson matter. You were just explaining the

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Speaker 1: situation as you've explained here. And I remember the feeling

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Speaker 1: within the police the next day. Everyone was happy with it,

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Speaker 1: and I thought, well, well done, You've clarified what there

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Speaker 1: was a lot of misinformation about following that interview. So

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Speaker 1: you come back in the work. Everyone's happy. Then what happened.

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Speaker 3: Yes, So what I had done during that interview is

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Speaker 3: it was outside what had been authorized, but I didn't

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Speaker 3: think it was as bad as it turned out to be.

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Speaker 3: So I'd said two things. One was that all victims

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Speaker 3: are equal, and I'd said that in my view, the

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Speaker 3: policeman mister had cow towed to the family, allowing Scott's

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Speaker 3: case to be the number one in the office to

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Speaker 3: take priority over hundreds of others. Those two things. I thought,

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Speaker 3: all victims are equal. I thought that's what everyone believed.

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Speaker 3: But apparently that's not an acceptable phrase.

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Speaker 1: Well if it's not, that should be and that should

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Speaker 1: be the cornerstone of what policing is about. All victims

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Speaker 1: should be traded equal.

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Speaker 3: And the cow towing I knew. Well, it's a bit

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Speaker 3: like remember earlier in now in my interview of view,

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Speaker 3: I remember with the Darwin job my style. I came

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Speaker 3: out and I said, I was asking, did anyone you

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Speaker 3: know I would have been send if I was a man.

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Speaker 3: Does anyone here have a spare penis one they're not

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Speaker 3: using for a while that I can borrow and go

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Speaker 3: and do this job. So similarly, because I had been

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Speaker 3: at the meeting with the police minister, who gets invited there,

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Speaker 3: I was wanting to be impressed. But I'd come away

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Speaker 3: from that and I was saying around the office which

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Speaker 3: is my style about the cow towing police minister, but

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Speaker 3: nonetheless is what it is, and we get on with

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Speaker 3: the job. So the day after the late line interview,

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Speaker 3: when the mood changes seriously, is the police minister, which

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Speaker 3: I would think because his police minister and much more

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Speaker 3: powerfulan me. I thought it would be water off a

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Speaker 3: ducks back. I thought he wouldn't like that Pam has

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Speaker 3: said it, but he would see that only Pam had

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Speaker 3: said it, and it would be water for ducks back. No,

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Speaker 3: he took real exception to it, and I was to

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Speaker 3: be put in my place, which I was, so that Yes,

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Speaker 3: there was a reaction, such a strong reaction to that

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Speaker 3: interview by the stablished groups that I mentioned, who who

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Speaker 3: for all the right passionate concern they had stood together,

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Speaker 3: and the mainstream media suggested that I was incompetent and homophobic,

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Speaker 3: which is still sitting today a devastating just.

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Speaker 1: Let me finish, sorry.

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Speaker 3: Devastating for someone like me, like me, with my views

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Speaker 3: about the quality of people, to have that vile allegation

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Speaker 3: to be labeled by that viole allegation repeatedly. So, but

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Speaker 3: that would have been bearable. We do a lot of

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Speaker 3: tough stuff in the job, don't we. But what happened

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Speaker 3: was it was my total political naivety was some and

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Speaker 3: only after the interview did I did I piece together

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Speaker 3: that why am I being ostracized? Because we I use

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Speaker 3: the word elite, but I don't mean it above street cops.

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Speaker 3: You know, we've a clarified that earlier. They're the yes,

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Speaker 3: there's a yes and an executive type of position. So

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Speaker 3: into that the void, if that's the right word. But

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Speaker 3: left by my political naivety. There was no support for

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Speaker 3: me internally, no support and that's because I worked out

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Speaker 3: too late that ambitious people working at our elevated level

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Speaker 3: above us, ambitious people would be relying on selection by

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Speaker 3: the government for executive positions, and and very ambitious people

348
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Speaker 3: who we who we were controlled by, we worked for,

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Speaker 3: didn't want to be seen as supporting someone like me

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Speaker 3: who had made this comment about a police minister.

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Speaker 1: I can bring clarity to a lot of it because

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Speaker 1: I was there seeing what was going on. Firstly, I

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Speaker 1: thought it was just such an injustice where it was

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Speaker 1: being touted that you were in competent investigator, and I think,

355
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Speaker 1: you know, and let's fast forward the Scott Johnson matter.

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Speaker 2: It's been resolved.

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Speaker 1: I dare say a lot of it it's been resolved,

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Speaker 1: is a lot of the work that you did in

359
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Speaker 1: looking at the investigation to start with, and I don't

360
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Speaker 1: think that should be ignored. But yeah, when people were

361
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Speaker 1: saying that and the fact that our organization didn't back

362
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Speaker 1: you one hundred percent disgusted me. The fact that with

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Speaker 1: the different groups attacking you for being homophobic, I think

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Speaker 1: I'm in a position to offer an opinion there given

365
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Speaker 1: the fact that we're in a relationship. You're so far

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Speaker 1: from homer phobe because it's not funny and that every

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Speaker 1: victim should be treated equal. I don't think you did

368
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Speaker 1: anything wrong. The only thing that got you into trouble

369
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Speaker 1: is you criticized the minister and an ego was upset

370
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Speaker 1: having said that in the office, and this is what

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Speaker 1: I lost a lot of respect. I'm going to say

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Speaker 1: this because I've sat on it for years and I

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Speaker 1: lost so much respect for a particular person that I

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Speaker 1: went and spoke to what was happening to you, and

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Speaker 1: I said, it's an absolute disgrace how Pam's been treated

376
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Speaker 1: over this matter. You know the quality of the person

377
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Speaker 1: she is. And in response to this, the person said, look,

378
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Speaker 1: I know she's good.

379
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Speaker 2: That I was.

380
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Speaker 1: Told by someone above me that don't throw your career

381
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Speaker 1: away protecting her, and what type of person says that.

382
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Speaker 1: I just looked at the person. I was just disgusted.

383
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Speaker 1: I just said I think I said I'm disgusted that

384
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Speaker 1: you would say that, but that was the attitude, and

385
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Speaker 1: I lost a lot of respect for senior police over

386
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Speaker 1: the way that you were hung out to dry on that.

387
00:24:41,800 --> 00:24:44,840
Speaker 1: And I know, I know the effort that you put

388
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Speaker 1: into the Scott Johnson matter, and I know you didn't

389
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Speaker 1: have any biases. You were just saying what you thought

390
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Speaker 1: fair and you were bided by what was said do

391
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Speaker 1: the investigation. Okay, I'll do it, and you do it,

392
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Speaker 1: did it to the best of your ability. So I

393
00:24:58,400 --> 00:25:01,399
Speaker 1: apologize on behalf of yourself backs paks for how you

394
00:25:01,440 --> 00:25:01,959
Speaker 1: were treated.

395
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Speaker 3: Do you blend it was right? That apology back, Thank

396
00:25:05,800 --> 00:25:12,560
Speaker 3: you for all those words of support, and yeah, but

397
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Speaker 3: you don't have to apologize for them.

398
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Speaker 1: Well, I was part of an organization and that really

399
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Speaker 1: it just sickened me that we could just hang one

400
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Speaker 1: of our own out to dry like you were hung

401
00:25:22,880 --> 00:25:24,600
Speaker 1: out to dry on that one. I thought it was

402
00:25:24,600 --> 00:25:26,760
Speaker 1: despicable and I know the impact it had on you.

403
00:25:27,680 --> 00:25:30,520
Speaker 1: I know on the back of that, I'm just sort

404
00:25:30,520 --> 00:25:33,760
Speaker 1: of moving forward a little bit here that you decided

405
00:25:33,840 --> 00:25:36,119
Speaker 1: you're going to leave the police as a result of that.

406
00:25:36,880 --> 00:25:41,680
Speaker 3: I sow a simple answer, though, of course, the process

407
00:25:41,760 --> 00:25:45,600
Speaker 3: is much more complicated. So the answer is yes, in

408
00:25:45,680 --> 00:25:53,439
Speaker 3: that I was emotionally distressed deeply by the betrayal, the

409
00:25:53,480 --> 00:25:58,639
Speaker 3: internal betrayal by bosses. I believed I was in an

410
00:25:58,680 --> 00:26:04,280
Speaker 3: ethical contract which is absorbed some shit, tough days, hard work,

411
00:26:05,520 --> 00:26:10,880
Speaker 3: and for that you are in a system of support.

412
00:26:10,960 --> 00:26:15,439
Speaker 3: There's support there, so that no longer existed for me.

413
00:26:16,440 --> 00:26:21,199
Speaker 3: So simply put, though it's much more complicated, I agree

414
00:26:21,200 --> 00:26:21,479
Speaker 3: with you.

415
00:26:21,640 --> 00:26:24,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, well even and I know there was times when

416
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Speaker 1: you took time off and I caught up with you,

417
00:26:27,640 --> 00:26:29,800
Speaker 1: and I was trying to talk you into coming back

418
00:26:29,800 --> 00:26:32,560
Speaker 1: into the police because we couldn't afford to lose people

419
00:26:32,680 --> 00:26:35,920
Speaker 1: like yourself in the police and genuinely not just looking

420
00:26:35,960 --> 00:26:38,760
Speaker 1: at for your interests. The police needed people like you

421
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Speaker 1: in there. And I said that to senior police, I said,

422
00:26:42,160 --> 00:26:45,480
Speaker 1: what are you doing letting her leave? What are you doing, like,

423
00:26:45,640 --> 00:26:48,840
Speaker 1: let's make it right, let's get pamed back in the

424
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Speaker 1: in the job. And there was no interest in it.

425
00:26:51,800 --> 00:26:55,800
Speaker 1: It was just it's just And yeah, I lost a

426
00:26:55,800 --> 00:26:57,399
Speaker 1: bit of love that I had for the cops on

427
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Speaker 1: the way that they treated you, and it was shame.

428
00:27:00,680 --> 00:27:05,280
Speaker 3: I lost my love. I was in love with it

429
00:27:05,320 --> 00:27:09,639
Speaker 3: and I lost that. But I would like to, if

430
00:27:09,680 --> 00:27:11,879
Speaker 3: it's not going to trigger too much, refer to what

431
00:27:12,160 --> 00:27:15,960
Speaker 3: was done to you, and I don't think it doesn't

432
00:27:16,000 --> 00:27:19,919
Speaker 3: represent as well if this just becomes a loving So

433
00:27:20,000 --> 00:27:21,840
Speaker 3: I don't know, but I would like to go there.

434
00:27:21,880 --> 00:27:24,840
Speaker 2: You say I deserved it hit the course.

435
00:27:24,640 --> 00:27:28,760
Speaker 3: Switch because some people will think, oh, we just give

436
00:27:28,800 --> 00:27:33,360
Speaker 3: them their privacy and say so, but it seems as

437
00:27:33,600 --> 00:27:36,200
Speaker 3: appropriate time. What do you think do you blame Look.

438
00:27:36,080 --> 00:27:39,320
Speaker 1: At young I know when we've discussed it, and I'd

439
00:27:39,320 --> 00:27:42,520
Speaker 1: probably discussed it adnause him on what happened to me.

440
00:27:42,640 --> 00:27:45,280
Speaker 1: But yeah, I'm happy for you to raise it because

441
00:27:45,280 --> 00:27:48,160
Speaker 1: you knew what was going on. You know the politics,

442
00:27:48,200 --> 00:27:50,199
Speaker 1: you know the dynamics, you know who I am, and

443
00:27:50,240 --> 00:27:53,000
Speaker 1: you know what was what was going on. I dare

444
00:27:53,040 --> 00:27:56,520
Speaker 1: say what what happened to me? And of course people

445
00:27:56,640 --> 00:27:59,560
Speaker 1: if they haven't listened, it's a whimterial matter where my

446
00:27:59,560 --> 00:28:02,240
Speaker 1: my career came to a crashing end over that. And

447
00:28:02,280 --> 00:28:05,439
Speaker 1: I was criminally charged, convicted, appealed, and convicted for the

448
00:28:05,480 --> 00:28:08,280
Speaker 1: horrendous crime of recording the conversation on my telephone and

449
00:28:08,320 --> 00:28:10,719
Speaker 1: the place that had listening devices in there. Anyway, but

450
00:28:11,200 --> 00:28:13,200
Speaker 1: that aside as you can see, I've let it go.

451
00:28:14,480 --> 00:28:16,760
Speaker 1: I just I don't think it would have happened if

452
00:28:16,760 --> 00:28:21,240
Speaker 1: you were still in the police, because I expected my colleagues,

453
00:28:21,280 --> 00:28:23,480
Speaker 1: my peers to stand up for me and stand up

454
00:28:23,520 --> 00:28:26,360
Speaker 1: strong for me on what happened, because it wasn't right

455
00:28:26,440 --> 00:28:29,560
Speaker 1: the way I was treated, and I didn't have that,

456
00:28:29,680 --> 00:28:33,600
Speaker 1: didn't have that support. I sat on Level nine, which

457
00:28:33,640 --> 00:28:36,199
Speaker 1: is out the front of the headmaster's office basically for

458
00:28:36,280 --> 00:28:39,320
Speaker 1: three months playing whale music and meditation. Is sitting in

459
00:28:39,320 --> 00:28:43,640
Speaker 1: that room, I think not one hand, one finger I

460
00:28:43,680 --> 00:28:46,920
Speaker 1: could count on my colleagues, my peers that came up

461
00:28:46,960 --> 00:28:49,600
Speaker 1: to visit me, and the one person that did I

462
00:28:49,600 --> 00:28:51,920
Speaker 1: could see him looking down the hallway in case a

463
00:28:51,960 --> 00:28:54,440
Speaker 1: boss walked past and saw someone talking to me, and

464
00:28:54,480 --> 00:28:56,760
Speaker 1: I just thought, really, is that that's what it's come

465
00:28:56,800 --> 00:28:56,960
Speaker 1: to me?

466
00:28:57,040 --> 00:29:01,600
Speaker 3: Yes, I'm surprised you have faith that if I had

467
00:29:01,640 --> 00:29:05,360
Speaker 3: been in the job, perhaps you still would have been

468
00:29:05,520 --> 00:29:09,800
Speaker 3: just for advocacy reasons, because what I learned through what

469
00:29:09,880 --> 00:29:14,520
Speaker 3: happened with me is we we we wielded a lot

470
00:29:14,520 --> 00:29:17,600
Speaker 3: of power we can take could take away people's freedom.

471
00:29:18,680 --> 00:29:23,480
Speaker 3: We were entrusted with the most intimate confidences of families

472
00:29:23,520 --> 00:29:28,880
Speaker 3: and uh and we thought we had some internal power,

473
00:29:28,920 --> 00:29:38,560
Speaker 3: but we we didn't. We were fodder and the those

474
00:29:38,600 --> 00:29:41,720
Speaker 3: above us and those ambitious ones with our eyes on

475
00:29:41,760 --> 00:29:46,960
Speaker 3: the big price, they hold the power. So Jibil and

476
00:29:47,000 --> 00:29:53,440
Speaker 3: I would have advocated for you with everything I had,

477
00:29:53,840 --> 00:29:55,840
Speaker 3: but I don't have the faith that it would have

478
00:29:55,880 --> 00:30:00,959
Speaker 3: made any difference because the power was held above us.

479
00:30:02,680 --> 00:30:05,840
Speaker 3: And your example of what you did to try to

480
00:30:06,880 --> 00:30:13,000
Speaker 3: give me practical help and stir some spine from the

481
00:30:13,120 --> 00:30:17,520
Speaker 3: hierarchy for me, you know what you did and you failed.

482
00:30:17,640 --> 00:30:18,720
Speaker 2: But I'm more a.

483
00:30:18,680 --> 00:30:21,800
Speaker 1: Bull at the gate on situations like that, and I

484
00:30:21,840 --> 00:30:24,760
Speaker 1: think you would have. I think you could have rallied

485
00:30:25,480 --> 00:30:29,200
Speaker 1: support that I didn't happen. And maybe you couldn't because

486
00:30:29,200 --> 00:30:31,800
Speaker 1: there were people that supported me, and you know it

487
00:30:31,840 --> 00:30:34,760
Speaker 1: wasn't all lack of support, but the ones that supported

488
00:30:34,800 --> 00:30:40,040
Speaker 1: me were victimized. Yes, just disgracefully. So yes, And we

489
00:30:40,440 --> 00:30:43,440
Speaker 1: say this, and let's just put on record we both

490
00:30:43,520 --> 00:30:44,920
Speaker 1: love their time in the New south West.

491
00:30:45,080 --> 00:30:53,960
Speaker 4: Yes, and still best career because well.

492
00:30:51,280 --> 00:30:55,080
Speaker 3: I'm hoping will end on that, but I want to

493
00:30:55,360 --> 00:30:58,080
Speaker 3: if you were thinking and moving on, I just wanted

494
00:30:58,080 --> 00:31:02,360
Speaker 3: to say the basic something really basic, but big message

495
00:31:02,400 --> 00:31:07,080
Speaker 3: in it is, apart from you know, the hideous way

496
00:31:07,320 --> 00:31:11,400
Speaker 3: you were treated, the saddest thing is relationships that you

497
00:31:11,800 --> 00:31:18,240
Speaker 3: built up and the reputation, fearsome reputation and always relied

498
00:31:18,320 --> 00:31:22,400
Speaker 3: upon experience from the bosses who asked you to do

499
00:31:22,960 --> 00:31:26,000
Speaker 3: jobs they knew they asked you specifically because they knew

500
00:31:26,000 --> 00:31:29,920
Speaker 3: how tough you were, peers who came to for advice,

501
00:31:31,080 --> 00:31:34,960
Speaker 3: but most said the staff who loved and respected you

502
00:31:36,640 --> 00:31:41,600
Speaker 3: and needed you there that those relationships got were broken

503
00:31:41,720 --> 00:31:44,720
Speaker 3: because of how you were treated. That's the saddest thing.

504
00:31:44,880 --> 00:31:46,960
Speaker 3: But let me finish. I can tell you're about to

505
00:31:47,000 --> 00:31:56,040
Speaker 3: talk so podcast. But just the bare facts is if

506
00:31:56,240 --> 00:32:00,680
Speaker 3: I died of a violent from a violent crime, I

507
00:32:01,280 --> 00:32:04,000
Speaker 3: would want you on my case. So just make a

508
00:32:04,040 --> 00:32:06,280
Speaker 3: note of that in case that happens. But I know

509
00:32:06,520 --> 00:32:10,200
Speaker 3: absolutely all of those bosses would want the same.

510
00:32:10,560 --> 00:32:10,800
Speaker 2: Yeah.

511
00:32:11,000 --> 00:32:16,120
Speaker 3: And that's as simple and as clear as it can be.

512
00:32:16,560 --> 00:32:19,800
Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, and from a homicide to tech this point

513
00:32:19,800 --> 00:32:22,400
Speaker 1: of view, there's not a greater compliment than someone to say, well,

514
00:32:22,400 --> 00:32:25,080
Speaker 1: if I got murderer to investigate my murder, it.

515
00:32:25,040 --> 00:32:26,800
Speaker 3: Would be nice if you turned up just before I

516
00:32:26,840 --> 00:32:28,400
Speaker 3: got murdered. But if it's after.

517
00:32:28,560 --> 00:32:30,360
Speaker 1: Well, it might be a way to get back in

518
00:32:30,440 --> 00:32:30,959
Speaker 1: the cops.

519
00:32:31,440 --> 00:32:33,400
Speaker 2: Invite me back. Now.

520
00:32:34,840 --> 00:32:37,160
Speaker 1: The things that we talk about, and I think it's

521
00:32:38,000 --> 00:32:40,840
Speaker 1: I've talked about it on this podcast obviously with other people,

522
00:32:40,920 --> 00:32:42,520
Speaker 1: but you get it. You know who I am, and

523
00:32:42,600 --> 00:32:46,360
Speaker 1: you know the organization, and you said about broken friendships

524
00:32:46,400 --> 00:32:49,560
Speaker 1: and all that. I set high standards with friends like

525
00:32:49,640 --> 00:32:52,320
Speaker 1: I support and I've learned a lot since I've left

526
00:32:52,320 --> 00:32:55,640
Speaker 1: the Cops. I've met some interesting people, colorful people, characters,

527
00:32:56,120 --> 00:33:00,440
Speaker 1: but loyalty is utmost and I've still got friends friends

528
00:33:00,440 --> 00:33:02,400
Speaker 1: in the police. I won't say I've lost all the friends,

529
00:33:02,440 --> 00:33:04,880
Speaker 1: but there were some people that I thought would support

530
00:33:04,920 --> 00:33:08,120
Speaker 1: me no matter what the cost, no matter what the risk,

531
00:33:08,280 --> 00:33:12,960
Speaker 1: as I would then didn't and that that hurt. That hurt,

532
00:33:13,040 --> 00:33:15,720
Speaker 1: and I, you know, maybe patch it up at some stage.

533
00:33:16,480 --> 00:33:20,440
Speaker 1: I've moved on. I'm enjoying, enjoying myself. But I think

534
00:33:20,440 --> 00:33:22,680
Speaker 1: there comes with a responsibility of being a friend. That

535
00:33:22,720 --> 00:33:24,600
Speaker 1: you're a friend not just for the good times. You're

536
00:33:24,640 --> 00:33:26,640
Speaker 1: a friend for a bad times, and you're a friend

537
00:33:26,640 --> 00:33:28,840
Speaker 1: that it might cost you, but that's what friendship and

538
00:33:28,880 --> 00:33:32,480
Speaker 1: loyalty is all about so anyway we digress. This is

539
00:33:32,560 --> 00:33:38,200
Speaker 1: me dissecting you. You flipped it on me, so regrets

540
00:33:38,320 --> 00:33:40,720
Speaker 1: about the way you left, like you offer. You gave

541
00:33:40,760 --> 00:33:42,720
Speaker 1: me a lot of advice and sorry, I'll talk about

542
00:33:42,720 --> 00:33:44,320
Speaker 1: myself one more time because you know I like to

543
00:33:44,320 --> 00:33:44,760
Speaker 1: talk about it.

544
00:33:44,840 --> 00:33:47,760
Speaker 3: I just sit back. Oh, shut up, cross my legs.

545
00:33:49,040 --> 00:33:51,760
Speaker 1: You supported me, You supported me when I went to court.

546
00:33:51,840 --> 00:33:55,040
Speaker 1: You're always there for me. And there was others that wouldn't.

547
00:33:55,160 --> 00:33:57,240
Speaker 1: Police were told not to turn up. They even they

548
00:33:57,280 --> 00:34:00,640
Speaker 1: even had a protection group turn up to protect the

549
00:34:00,800 --> 00:34:03,120
Speaker 1: witnesses that were going to give evidence against me because

550
00:34:03,160 --> 00:34:05,320
Speaker 1: of my crew, which was my mother and my kids

551
00:34:05,320 --> 00:34:07,760
Speaker 1: that were going to take out witnesses. But you were

552
00:34:07,760 --> 00:34:11,120
Speaker 1: there and you publicly supported me, as did Nick Kaldos,

553
00:34:11,120 --> 00:34:16,920
Speaker 1: Paul Jacob, Matt Moss, people that I respect. With what

554
00:34:17,120 --> 00:34:19,960
Speaker 1: happened with what happened with you. I just thought it

555
00:34:20,120 --> 00:34:22,440
Speaker 1: was sad that the way that it ended, because it

556
00:34:22,520 --> 00:34:24,879
Speaker 1: just seemed so unfair what your career had stood for,

557
00:34:24,960 --> 00:34:27,320
Speaker 1: how hard you worked, and then you sort.

558
00:34:27,120 --> 00:34:31,600
Speaker 3: Of left, faded away. You went off in an explosion.

559
00:34:33,520 --> 00:34:35,800
Speaker 3: No one could miss it. I just faded away.

560
00:34:36,040 --> 00:34:39,680
Speaker 1: Well, well, I thought you would burn an explosion. But

561
00:34:39,719 --> 00:34:42,560
Speaker 1: you did just basically fade away. And I say this,

562
00:34:43,360 --> 00:34:47,040
Speaker 1: I honestly thought, I honestly thought you would be and

563
00:34:47,080 --> 00:34:50,600
Speaker 1: this might be you know, you say unrealistic. I thought

564
00:34:50,640 --> 00:34:53,200
Speaker 1: you would be commissioner at one stage you had the

565
00:34:53,960 --> 00:34:58,480
Speaker 1: operational skills to run investigations, work on the investigations. You

566
00:34:58,560 --> 00:35:01,040
Speaker 1: had that, but you had a of carving through the

567
00:35:01,120 --> 00:35:03,880
Speaker 1: management that I've never never seen and was.

568
00:35:03,880 --> 00:35:05,360
Speaker 3: That an end? And look at the results?

569
00:35:06,840 --> 00:35:08,960
Speaker 2: Well, I was never a good judge of character, look

570
00:35:08,960 --> 00:35:09,879
Speaker 2: at my relationship.

571
00:35:09,920 --> 00:35:11,600
Speaker 3: Can I put in a plug for Karen Web?

572
00:35:12,000 --> 00:35:12,680
Speaker 2: Yes? Please do?

573
00:35:12,920 --> 00:35:14,240
Speaker 3: Please do so good?

574
00:35:14,480 --> 00:35:17,600
Speaker 2: Okay, we're talking about we're talking this is.

575
00:35:17,520 --> 00:35:21,040
Speaker 1: A podcast, not a private conversation. We're talking about the

576
00:35:21,080 --> 00:35:24,399
Speaker 1: current New South Wales Police Commissioner, Karen Web and our

577
00:35:24,440 --> 00:35:28,799
Speaker 1: guests on the Eye Catch Callers podcast. Retired Detective Chief

578
00:35:28,800 --> 00:35:31,440
Speaker 1: Inspector Family Young has asked to put in a plug

579
00:35:31,480 --> 00:35:32,320
Speaker 1: for Karen.

580
00:35:32,080 --> 00:35:36,080
Speaker 3: Web, which which is how terrific it is that finally

581
00:35:36,160 --> 00:35:39,280
Speaker 3: there's a woman in the top top job that she's

582
00:35:40,400 --> 00:35:44,879
Speaker 3: been an exceptional manager over many decades. She's in that

583
00:35:44,920 --> 00:35:48,120
Speaker 3: position with a lot of experience and she's a very

584
00:35:48,440 --> 00:35:53,880
Speaker 3: nice person. I've noticed she's been criticized by her appearance

585
00:35:53,920 --> 00:35:59,240
Speaker 3: in the media, how she looks or how she speaks.

586
00:35:58,760 --> 00:36:04,359
Speaker 3: Honest to God, wouldn't the public prefer to have a

587
00:36:04,920 --> 00:36:11,680
Speaker 3: highly competent, experienced officer there who might not be across

588
00:36:11,760 --> 00:36:16,920
Speaker 3: the latest media image than someone who's very media savvy

589
00:36:17,040 --> 00:36:21,000
Speaker 3: and doesn't have the rest isn't the package? And I

590
00:36:21,000 --> 00:36:24,480
Speaker 3: would like to think if anyone in the job listens

591
00:36:24,480 --> 00:36:27,080
Speaker 3: to this, that they kind of think of why she

592
00:36:27,239 --> 00:36:32,040
Speaker 3: might be being criticized and support especially the women out there.

593
00:36:32,040 --> 00:36:34,239
Speaker 3: But it shouldn't just come down to that, should it. No?

594
00:36:34,440 --> 00:36:37,560
Speaker 1: And I'm glad you spoke up there. I've been watching

595
00:36:37,600 --> 00:36:40,480
Speaker 1: and I've done a couple of things on the media

596
00:36:40,640 --> 00:36:44,520
Speaker 1: of current current investigations, and it was sort of fed

597
00:36:44,560 --> 00:36:46,840
Speaker 1: to me like the carrot was dangled there for me

598
00:36:46,960 --> 00:36:51,040
Speaker 1: to attack Karen Web. And I didn't want to attack

599
00:36:51,080 --> 00:36:52,960
Speaker 1: Karen Web. I thought it was unjust some of the

600
00:36:53,000 --> 00:36:56,920
Speaker 1: criticism that she was getting and my observation, knowing the

601
00:36:57,000 --> 00:37:00,000
Speaker 1: organization as it is, I could be wrong. I'm looking

602
00:37:00,080 --> 00:37:01,839
Speaker 1: from the outside, so I'm saying that, and I want

603
00:37:01,840 --> 00:37:03,840
Speaker 1: to clarify that before I say this. It's not no

604
00:37:04,040 --> 00:37:06,799
Speaker 1: inside knowledge. I don't have anything to do with the police.

605
00:37:07,239 --> 00:37:09,640
Speaker 1: But I wonder if she's getting the support from the

606
00:37:09,680 --> 00:37:12,320
Speaker 1: people around that, because I feel like she's it's almost

607
00:37:12,360 --> 00:37:14,799
Speaker 1: like she's been set up to fail on some of

608
00:37:14,800 --> 00:37:15,240
Speaker 1: the things.

609
00:37:15,520 --> 00:37:18,520
Speaker 3: Well, we've seen that happen before, and we have talked

610
00:37:18,640 --> 00:37:22,560
Speaker 3: in our matters about literally the politics at that level.

611
00:37:22,600 --> 00:37:25,200
Speaker 3: And doesn't mean to say every day they're in there

612
00:37:25,239 --> 00:37:28,480
Speaker 3: plotting against each other, but honestly, it's such a big

613
00:37:28,560 --> 00:37:32,200
Speaker 3: prize now, it's paid very well, there's a lot of

614
00:37:32,520 --> 00:37:37,480
Speaker 3: status and networking around it. It does seem to get

615
00:37:37,560 --> 00:37:41,680
Speaker 3: vicious there, and we learned that earlier through someone we

616
00:37:41,800 --> 00:37:47,040
Speaker 3: both respect. Nick Cardas, is a good example of that.

617
00:37:47,840 --> 00:37:54,880
Speaker 3: So what a sad state of affairs if Karen is

618
00:37:55,000 --> 00:37:57,040
Speaker 3: vulnerable to that sort of thing that she's certainly not

619
00:37:57,080 --> 00:38:00,920
Speaker 3: a vulnerable person, but you can't do the or but alone.

620
00:38:01,080 --> 00:38:04,359
Speaker 1: Well, I never work with her in my career, but

621
00:38:04,560 --> 00:38:07,440
Speaker 1: people that I respect have said said good things about her.

622
00:38:07,480 --> 00:38:10,360
Speaker 1: You're saying good things about her, and I take it that.

623
00:38:10,920 --> 00:38:12,840
Speaker 1: And if you've got the commission, that's a good person,

624
00:38:13,239 --> 00:38:16,279
Speaker 1: like inherently good person, a person of integrity.

625
00:38:16,560 --> 00:38:17,200
Speaker 2: I think that.

626
00:38:17,080 --> 00:38:20,160
Speaker 1: Carries so much, so much more reading to whatever you

627
00:38:20,200 --> 00:38:24,320
Speaker 1: want what I'm saying here, but having someone with some integrity, Yes,

628
00:38:24,520 --> 00:38:28,520
Speaker 1: that position is so important. You're running the police, you would.

629
00:38:28,280 --> 00:38:31,399
Speaker 3: Think it's essential as a police officer, because she's still

630
00:38:31,440 --> 00:38:34,080
Speaker 3: a police officer. You think if you think it's essential

631
00:38:34,920 --> 00:38:39,640
Speaker 3: that police are ethical, that they have character, that they

632
00:38:39,880 --> 00:38:44,800
Speaker 3: are decent, than our commissioner of police who has those characteristics,

633
00:38:45,080 --> 00:38:46,680
Speaker 3: surely that's a good choice.

634
00:38:46,880 --> 00:38:51,200
Speaker 1: So let's hope we're all winners. If she's doing a

635
00:38:51,239 --> 00:38:55,040
Speaker 1: good job and moving the organization organization for.

636
00:38:55,080 --> 00:38:59,960
Speaker 3: It, and if there's any sexism misogyny involved in the criticism,

637
00:39:00,239 --> 00:39:05,879
Speaker 3: for my god, there'll be hell to pay. Honestly, as

638
00:39:05,920 --> 00:39:09,280
Speaker 3: a country, aren't we passed that? Didn't we learn something?

639
00:39:09,960 --> 00:39:12,799
Speaker 2: We should be way past that, way past that.

640
00:39:13,400 --> 00:39:15,600
Speaker 1: Okay, we look back at our careers and I think

641
00:39:15,680 --> 00:39:18,799
Speaker 1: you'd share with me you enjoyed every day of it.

642
00:39:18,400 --> 00:39:23,080
Speaker 1: It was an interesting time. And absolutely no regrets about

643
00:39:23,400 --> 00:39:26,400
Speaker 1: taking our life down the path of being career police officers.

644
00:39:26,600 --> 00:39:31,600
Speaker 3: No regrets at all. No, it's such a thrilling experience

645
00:39:31,719 --> 00:39:36,440
Speaker 3: and it's so satisfying and purposeful, and I would really

646
00:39:36,760 --> 00:39:41,400
Speaker 3: recommend it. And there are some very good working conditions

647
00:39:42,239 --> 00:39:46,040
Speaker 3: and the pays decent, So for all sorts of practical

648
00:39:46,360 --> 00:39:52,600
Speaker 3: and adventurous reasons, I really would encourage people.

649
00:39:52,960 --> 00:39:56,000
Speaker 1: Well, I'm exactly the same. I think, if you want

650
00:39:56,239 --> 00:39:58,279
Speaker 1: an interesting life, join the police and you're going to

651
00:39:58,280 --> 00:40:00,520
Speaker 1: get an interesting life. If you throw yourself the policing,

652
00:40:00,560 --> 00:40:02,200
Speaker 1: that's going to open up doors and you're going to

653
00:40:02,239 --> 00:40:05,000
Speaker 1: have experiences that you never never thought.

654
00:40:04,880 --> 00:40:05,720
Speaker 2: Would be possible.

655
00:40:05,960 --> 00:40:07,440
Speaker 1: And you look back at your life, you look back

656
00:40:07,480 --> 00:40:09,239
Speaker 1: at our careers and think, did I really do that?

657
00:40:09,360 --> 00:40:13,400
Speaker 1: And so many things. What saddens me today is that

658
00:40:13,440 --> 00:40:16,799
Speaker 1: police are really struggling to recruit people, and I know

659
00:40:17,000 --> 00:40:19,600
Speaker 1: not just in New South Wales but across the country

660
00:40:19,600 --> 00:40:24,080
Speaker 1: and some regions or some commands they're equating seventy percent understaff,

661
00:40:24,239 --> 00:40:27,440
Speaker 1: and that just perpetuates the problems because the people left

662
00:40:27,480 --> 00:40:30,839
Speaker 1: there are going to have to carry the lad What

663
00:40:30,880 --> 00:40:33,600
Speaker 1: can we say, as people who have been there, done that,

664
00:40:33,680 --> 00:40:36,319
Speaker 1: come through the police career and we're still standing and

665
00:40:36,680 --> 00:40:39,440
Speaker 1: we look back at it, why aren't people joining the

666
00:40:39,440 --> 00:40:41,920
Speaker 1: police these days? Or what can we do to encourage

667
00:40:41,920 --> 00:40:43,000
Speaker 1: people to join the police.

668
00:40:43,719 --> 00:40:48,759
Speaker 3: I don't know the formal research reasons, though I do know,

669
00:40:49,160 --> 00:40:52,560
Speaker 3: for instance, the military is suffering as well I wonder

670
00:40:53,040 --> 00:40:58,920
Speaker 3: is everyone after some sort of office intellectual position. I

671
00:40:59,000 --> 00:41:01,920
Speaker 3: wonder if that's part of it, not so much physical

672
00:41:02,120 --> 00:41:06,080
Speaker 3: hands on Maybe all the scare tactics used by the

673
00:41:06,160 --> 00:41:09,720
Speaker 3: media make people think you life is threatened every day

674
00:41:09,960 --> 00:41:15,279
Speaker 3: in the police, which it is not. So yes, I'm

675
00:41:15,280 --> 00:41:16,400
Speaker 3: at a loss.

676
00:41:17,120 --> 00:41:20,120
Speaker 1: I think if people understand policing, because they probably see that,

677
00:41:20,120 --> 00:41:23,239
Speaker 1: they'll see detectives on high profile cases, they'll see the

678
00:41:23,320 --> 00:41:26,080
Speaker 1: uniform police. But there is so many different things you

679
00:41:26,120 --> 00:41:27,520
Speaker 1: can do in policing.

680
00:41:27,480 --> 00:41:31,360
Speaker 3: Yeah, the variety, Yes, and you get to pitch yourself

681
00:41:31,360 --> 00:41:35,600
Speaker 3: against experiences and challenges that you would not get in

682
00:41:35,760 --> 00:41:41,160
Speaker 3: any other industry, any other profession, and so yes, you

683
00:41:41,880 --> 00:41:45,439
Speaker 3: develop all sorts of skills, and it is.

684
00:41:45,360 --> 00:41:46,040
Speaker 1: A very.

685
00:41:48,160 --> 00:41:53,399
Speaker 3: It does require a lot of intelligence to do the job.

686
00:41:53,440 --> 00:41:58,279
Speaker 3: People mustn't forget that because you are communicating and convincing

687
00:41:58,360 --> 00:42:06,160
Speaker 3: and winning over lawyers and convincing judges of the evidence

688
00:42:06,200 --> 00:42:09,520
Speaker 3: and things. So there's a it's just well, well, it

689
00:42:09,600 --> 00:42:10,640
Speaker 3: uses every part of you.

690
00:42:10,840 --> 00:42:13,240
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that's fair to say, and I always

691
00:42:13,280 --> 00:42:16,680
Speaker 1: look at people that, And I know, prior to joining

692
00:42:16,680 --> 00:42:19,640
Speaker 1: the police sometimes if I was working in the building industry,

693
00:42:19,719 --> 00:42:22,920
Speaker 1: I didn't feel like going to work. I can't remember

694
00:42:22,920 --> 00:42:25,560
Speaker 1: that in policing, like there was times there and I

695
00:42:25,560 --> 00:42:28,880
Speaker 1: think we've all experienced this. When you're a young detective,

696
00:42:29,239 --> 00:42:30,840
Speaker 1: you didn't want to take a day off because you

697
00:42:30,880 --> 00:42:32,879
Speaker 1: didn't want to miss out on the excitement that was there.

698
00:42:32,920 --> 00:42:35,360
Speaker 1: And I'm sure that's the same for uniform police or

699
00:42:35,440 --> 00:42:39,239
Speaker 1: tactical police. There's so many things, so I want to

700
00:42:39,280 --> 00:42:41,319
Speaker 1: shout out because it just saddens me that we can't

701
00:42:41,360 --> 00:42:44,319
Speaker 1: get people in policing. And let me tell you, and

702
00:42:44,640 --> 00:42:47,040
Speaker 1: these are two of us that have been through and yeah,

703
00:42:47,120 --> 00:42:49,959
Speaker 1: our careers didn't and the way we thought they did,

704
00:42:50,239 --> 00:42:52,560
Speaker 1: and we're still saying we love the job. Actually I

705
00:42:52,600 --> 00:42:56,040
Speaker 1: am not at court criminally charged like it didn't end

706
00:42:56,239 --> 00:42:59,759
Speaker 1: but buttons for punishment, but we still loved it. So yeah,

707
00:43:00,040 --> 00:43:02,400
Speaker 1: and I hope maybe the recruiting, maybe they've got to

708
00:43:02,440 --> 00:43:05,400
Speaker 1: start advertising and then explain what goes on it and

709
00:43:05,800 --> 00:43:10,120
Speaker 1: put instead of these statue bosses up there doing the media,

710
00:43:10,160 --> 00:43:12,200
Speaker 1: at least show the junior police that are out there

711
00:43:12,239 --> 00:43:14,520
Speaker 1: doing the actual work and giving them some exposure and

712
00:43:14,560 --> 00:43:17,320
Speaker 1: people can aspire to be those type of people.

713
00:43:17,920 --> 00:43:22,320
Speaker 3: Yes, well, I think they stopped the average police officer

714
00:43:22,480 --> 00:43:26,440
Speaker 3: doing any media stand ups after you, after your experience

715
00:43:26,440 --> 00:43:28,959
Speaker 3: and my experience in the media. So I think that's

716
00:43:29,000 --> 00:43:33,680
Speaker 3: why the higher end bosses are being seen more regularly now.

717
00:43:34,040 --> 00:43:36,839
Speaker 1: And I think the higher end bosses and again this then,

718
00:43:36,920 --> 00:43:39,680
Speaker 1: dear me to it's their own personal ego too. They

719
00:43:39,719 --> 00:43:42,400
Speaker 1: don't want people other people that are actually doing the

720
00:43:42,400 --> 00:43:45,000
Speaker 1: work speaking to the media. Now that'll go, oh yeah,

721
00:43:45,040 --> 00:43:48,440
Speaker 1: he's dubiling again. But I honestly believe that, for the

722
00:43:48,480 --> 00:43:50,960
Speaker 1: life of me, I cannot see why someone that's been

723
00:43:51,000 --> 00:43:54,200
Speaker 1: given the responsibility to run a murder investigation, I you,

724
00:43:54,320 --> 00:43:57,920
Speaker 1: a detective sergeant or an experienced detective senior constable, can't

725
00:43:57,920 --> 00:44:00,480
Speaker 1: be trusted enough to then look down the camera and

726
00:44:00,520 --> 00:44:03,440
Speaker 1: speak to the media about about the investigation. Because there's

727
00:44:03,480 --> 00:44:06,360
Speaker 1: one person knows more about the investigation than anyone else,

728
00:44:06,560 --> 00:44:09,080
Speaker 1: and that's certainly not the boss. It's a person running

729
00:44:09,120 --> 00:44:11,879
Speaker 1: the investigation. So maybe that type of thing they've got

730
00:44:11,880 --> 00:44:13,319
Speaker 1: to look at to encourage people to.

731
00:44:14,920 --> 00:44:19,839
Speaker 2: Aspire to join the place. Well said, thank you On that.

732
00:44:19,880 --> 00:44:22,279
Speaker 1: Note, Where what do we talk about now?

733
00:44:22,560 --> 00:44:24,520
Speaker 3: Something light? Please?

734
00:44:26,440 --> 00:44:27,120
Speaker 2: Who else do we.

735
00:44:27,080 --> 00:44:30,560
Speaker 1: Want to attack, support or whatever? Life outside the cops.

736
00:44:30,560 --> 00:44:32,879
Speaker 1: How did you feel when you've got out of the.

737
00:44:32,800 --> 00:44:45,840
Speaker 3: Cops, lost, confused, vulnerable. Yeah, I didn't realize how much

738
00:44:46,920 --> 00:44:53,920
Speaker 3: being cop was in my blood because I've always thought

739
00:44:54,000 --> 00:44:58,480
Speaker 3: of myself differently. I like the arts, I love studying philosophy,

740
00:44:59,280 --> 00:45:03,200
Speaker 3: I being a woman in working in areas where you're

741
00:45:03,239 --> 00:45:08,680
Speaker 3: basically alone anyway, I not other many other women. You

742
00:45:08,680 --> 00:45:11,359
Speaker 3: you do already think or I thought of myself as

743
00:45:11,400 --> 00:45:19,560
Speaker 3: separate to the machinery and the club like nature. Yeah,

744
00:45:20,360 --> 00:45:24,560
Speaker 3: but when it was no longer available to me, those

745
00:45:25,560 --> 00:45:33,759
Speaker 3: absences were tangible to me, including one thing took me

746
00:45:33,800 --> 00:45:37,120
Speaker 3: a while. I don't know, I overthink everything, but that

747
00:45:37,520 --> 00:45:39,920
Speaker 3: was good at one stage. But you know this, I

748
00:45:40,000 --> 00:45:42,880
Speaker 3: became aware of there's just something not right in the

749
00:45:43,239 --> 00:45:46,080
Speaker 3: in the day, there's something missing. And I've named some

750
00:45:46,120 --> 00:45:49,200
Speaker 3: things just now, but something I couldn't name until I

751
00:45:49,280 --> 00:45:55,279
Speaker 3: worked it out. It was testosterone. So it is an

752
00:45:55,320 --> 00:45:58,400
Speaker 3: incredible It was an incredible discovery to me that the

753
00:45:58,800 --> 00:46:05,960
Speaker 3: working in male dominated environment for so long had had

754
00:46:06,000 --> 00:46:11,560
Speaker 3: a physical presence that I no longer had. Yeah, so

755
00:46:11,640 --> 00:46:16,080
Speaker 3: that was it. I mean, and I don't mean I

756
00:46:16,239 --> 00:46:19,719
Speaker 3: just yeah, I don't mean a sort of demonstration of

757
00:46:20,000 --> 00:46:23,560
Speaker 3: testosterone anyway. I mean, I mean just just that that

758
00:46:24,080 --> 00:46:29,640
Speaker 3: beautiful difference between genders and all the spectrum of genders

759
00:46:29,640 --> 00:46:30,439
Speaker 3: that that might be.

760
00:46:30,840 --> 00:46:33,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, well I've asked that question with a lot

761
00:46:33,040 --> 00:46:35,359
Speaker 1: of guests on here, and they've never raised testosterone.

762
00:46:35,360 --> 00:46:35,839
Speaker 2: What do you miss?

763
00:46:35,960 --> 00:46:38,880
Speaker 3: So that's why I know that I'm a little bit different.

764
00:46:39,360 --> 00:46:40,399
Speaker 2: What do you miss about police?

765
00:46:40,440 --> 00:46:41,359
Speaker 3: What's the question again?

766
00:46:41,440 --> 00:46:42,120
Speaker 2: Testosterone?

767
00:46:42,320 --> 00:46:44,719
Speaker 1: But I think being different does make you a better

768
00:46:44,760 --> 00:46:48,520
Speaker 1: police officer too, And like just having a different view

769
00:46:48,560 --> 00:46:52,760
Speaker 1: on things. And you're talking about you studying philosophy and

770
00:46:52,800 --> 00:46:56,640
Speaker 1: you put me onto that practical philosophy course in Surrey Hills.

771
00:46:56,960 --> 00:46:57,400
Speaker 3: I failed.

772
00:46:57,440 --> 00:46:58,480
Speaker 2: I didn't fail.

773
00:46:58,600 --> 00:46:59,560
Speaker 3: I didn't get the fifty.

774
00:47:00,800 --> 00:47:02,880
Speaker 2: No, I didn't file. I was busy.

775
00:47:03,680 --> 00:47:05,840
Speaker 1: Now I didn't file. I finished the course. But I

776
00:47:06,120 --> 00:47:11,080
Speaker 1: got a lot from that ambitions. Now, what do you

777
00:47:11,120 --> 00:47:12,359
Speaker 1: want to do with your love?

778
00:47:13,280 --> 00:47:18,560
Speaker 3: So so I'm just a social justice type of person.

779
00:47:18,719 --> 00:47:23,320
Speaker 3: So I've always I've had some shame around my country

780
00:47:23,320 --> 00:47:28,000
Speaker 3: and what we do with refugees and asylum seekers. I've

781
00:47:28,000 --> 00:47:31,200
Speaker 3: always thought we could be more generous. So my little

782
00:47:31,239 --> 00:47:39,960
Speaker 3: contribution to organizations that support those people in need, So

783
00:47:40,280 --> 00:47:48,920
Speaker 3: just through meals or conversational English or helping with bureaucratic forms,

784
00:47:49,520 --> 00:47:55,319
Speaker 3: explaining how our infrastructure works and government works and things

785
00:47:55,360 --> 00:48:00,000
Speaker 3: like that. So I find that very satisfying. I'm sure

786
00:48:00,200 --> 00:48:03,279
Speaker 3: I get more out of it than they do. I'm

787
00:48:03,280 --> 00:48:06,640
Speaker 3: not doing any high level anything. I'm not convinced I

788
00:48:06,680 --> 00:48:15,240
Speaker 3: could ever work for a man again. Uh. I travel

789
00:48:15,280 --> 00:48:19,080
Speaker 3: a lot. I travel a lot. I love exploring my curiosity,

790
00:48:19,120 --> 00:48:21,920
Speaker 3: which got me on the job primarily, really and sustain

791
00:48:22,000 --> 00:48:25,040
Speaker 3: me is still with me. I love learning about other

792
00:48:25,080 --> 00:48:28,239
Speaker 3: cultures and meeting interesting people. I prefer people to be

793
00:48:28,360 --> 00:48:31,440
Speaker 3: interesting than nice.

794
00:48:32,239 --> 00:48:34,839
Speaker 2: That's I think we've both followed that path.

795
00:48:37,080 --> 00:48:42,000
Speaker 3: But bottom line, and lots of people fudget once they're out.

796
00:48:42,160 --> 00:48:43,839
Speaker 3: I mean, there's a lot of a lot of us

797
00:48:43,880 --> 00:48:49,400
Speaker 3: become hermits. The when you when you deal with life

798
00:48:49,520 --> 00:48:56,200
Speaker 3: and death repeatedly, up close in all its detail and

799
00:48:56,280 --> 00:49:08,040
Speaker 3: color and smell and angst, and that wonderful positivity that

800
00:49:08,040 --> 00:49:13,040
Speaker 3: the families can have, that courage they share once you've

801
00:49:13,080 --> 00:49:16,600
Speaker 3: been up close, once you're in that that's in your face.

802
00:49:17,080 --> 00:49:21,320
Speaker 3: It's at this station impossible for me to find anything

803
00:49:22,400 --> 00:49:28,719
Speaker 3: as satisfying. And I think that's just how it is.

804
00:49:28,760 --> 00:49:31,520
Speaker 3: That's not a curse. I think that's a sort of

805
00:49:31,680 --> 00:49:37,919
Speaker 3: privilege that I've been there, done that helped people, had

806
00:49:38,040 --> 00:49:40,640
Speaker 3: thrills in my own life. It's thrilling. It developed me.

807
00:49:41,440 --> 00:49:45,680
Speaker 3: It made me a much more articulate person, a much

808
00:49:45,719 --> 00:49:51,160
Speaker 3: more compassionate person. So given me wonderful, wonderful things, and

809
00:49:51,400 --> 00:49:55,759
Speaker 3: it's irreplaceable. But everything has to come to an end.

810
00:49:55,760 --> 00:49:59,759
Speaker 3: If what was done to us wasn't done to us

811
00:50:00,200 --> 00:50:02,440
Speaker 3: and we would be looking, you would we would have

812
00:50:02,480 --> 00:50:03,880
Speaker 3: to be out of the job at some stage. So

813
00:50:04,800 --> 00:50:08,640
Speaker 3: these processes that we're going through that I'm trying trying

814
00:50:08,680 --> 00:50:12,839
Speaker 3: to explain in some way, it has to be faced. Yeah, yeah,

815
00:50:13,360 --> 00:50:13,640
Speaker 3: well it.

816
00:50:13,600 --> 00:50:16,800
Speaker 1: Was almost the way that we we operated in our career.

817
00:50:16,840 --> 00:50:18,960
Speaker 1: It was always going to win some way.

818
00:50:19,200 --> 00:50:19,719
Speaker 3: Yeah yeah.

819
00:50:19,840 --> 00:50:22,759
Speaker 1: And I never saw you or I marching out with

820
00:50:22,800 --> 00:50:25,360
Speaker 1: a band plane as they do some people attire just

821
00:50:25,480 --> 00:50:27,160
Speaker 1: for some reason. I just didn't think that was going

822
00:50:27,239 --> 00:50:27,600
Speaker 1: to happen.

823
00:50:28,480 --> 00:50:32,000
Speaker 3: No, no, no, I.

824
00:50:31,880 --> 00:50:35,279
Speaker 1: Think I've you've articulated very well what policing meant, and

825
00:50:36,320 --> 00:50:38,839
Speaker 1: that I just say what I was doing. I still

826
00:50:38,880 --> 00:50:41,120
Speaker 1: felt like as a good person because I'm doing something

827
00:50:41,680 --> 00:50:44,920
Speaker 1: each day, and that's when I left struggle with that.

828
00:50:45,440 --> 00:50:48,320
Speaker 3: Yes, that is so purpose.

829
00:50:49,040 --> 00:50:50,880
Speaker 1: I might be a fuck up in every aspect of

830
00:50:50,920 --> 00:50:52,839
Speaker 1: my life. But look, I'm doing some good. Yeah, and

831
00:50:52,840 --> 00:50:55,000
Speaker 1: that made me feel better and I missed.

832
00:50:54,719 --> 00:51:00,640
Speaker 3: That purpose and other things have purpose to even being

833
00:51:00,640 --> 00:51:03,080
Speaker 3: a good father, which you still are in the pizza

834
00:51:03,400 --> 00:51:08,000
Speaker 3: well and July don't need you, but I hope to be.

835
00:51:08,520 --> 00:51:10,920
Speaker 3: I'm a good aunt. I hope I am to twelve

836
00:51:11,000 --> 00:51:13,600
Speaker 3: nieces and nephews whenever they let me in their busy

837
00:51:13,640 --> 00:51:18,040
Speaker 3: life and things. But satisfaction of what we've done, what

838
00:51:18,560 --> 00:51:21,680
Speaker 3: we had the privilege to do, the honor to do,

839
00:51:21,840 --> 00:51:26,480
Speaker 3: is irreplaceable. On that note, could I just say.

840
00:51:28,440 --> 00:51:30,520
Speaker 1: I never could control you, so go on, young, Yes,

841
00:51:30,600 --> 00:51:32,239
Speaker 1: I just want to you can't have this job.

842
00:51:32,280 --> 00:51:32,879
Speaker 2: It's my job.

843
00:51:34,239 --> 00:51:38,640
Speaker 3: The other heart wrenching thing, but heartwarming too, is just

844
00:51:38,719 --> 00:51:44,560
Speaker 3: how close and how much I loved and love my

845
00:51:45,280 --> 00:51:49,120
Speaker 3: team members who always worked so hard or always put

846
00:51:49,239 --> 00:51:52,960
Speaker 3: up with me making them work hard, whichever came first,

847
00:51:52,640 --> 00:51:59,560
Speaker 3: whichever worked, and just yeah, just amazing efforts. The community

848
00:51:59,600 --> 00:52:06,680
Speaker 3: should know they have amazingly passionate experts out there, but

849
00:52:06,920 --> 00:52:11,480
Speaker 3: those experts need to be supported and they need some

850
00:52:11,600 --> 00:52:16,720
Speaker 3: time off occasionally. Yep, and and yeah.

851
00:52:16,640 --> 00:52:20,399
Speaker 1: We obviously enjoyed, enjoy their policing, and we know we're

852
00:52:20,440 --> 00:52:23,839
Speaker 1: just passing it on what legacy. I think you taught

853
00:52:23,880 --> 00:52:26,080
Speaker 1: me that that's what legacy you leave in a position.

854
00:52:26,600 --> 00:52:29,759
Speaker 1: What's the legacy you've left, and you just pass on

855
00:52:29,800 --> 00:52:32,200
Speaker 1: that bat into the next group of people. And we

856
00:52:32,320 --> 00:52:35,680
Speaker 1: know that there's people out there working. They're probably smarter

857
00:52:35,800 --> 00:52:38,120
Speaker 1: and harder working than us that are out there doing

858
00:52:38,160 --> 00:52:40,360
Speaker 1: what we were trying to do during our career.

859
00:52:40,480 --> 00:52:43,440
Speaker 3: I don't know about the smarter and harder, but they're definitely.

860
00:52:43,000 --> 00:52:48,320
Speaker 1: They wouldn't be that they might be, all right, I

861
00:52:48,440 --> 00:52:51,080
Speaker 1: want to I want to finish this on a serious note.

862
00:52:51,160 --> 00:52:53,440
Speaker 1: I've really enjoyed the chat. I know it's been a

863
00:52:53,520 --> 00:52:56,360
Speaker 1: working progress getting you here to talk. So many people

864
00:52:56,360 --> 00:52:57,960
Speaker 1: have asked me when am I getting Pam on the

865
00:52:58,080 --> 00:53:01,080
Speaker 1: on the podcast. I think the way you represent policing

866
00:53:01,200 --> 00:53:03,200
Speaker 1: is something to be proud of. I'm proud of the

867
00:53:03,200 --> 00:53:07,040
Speaker 1: fact of how you represent policing and I hate breaking

868
00:53:07,040 --> 00:53:10,319
Speaker 1: it down like you're a good police officer because you're

869
00:53:10,320 --> 00:53:13,759
Speaker 1: a woman. You stood out in any field. But what

870
00:53:13,840 --> 00:53:16,480
Speaker 1: a great role model. And that's what saddens me that

871
00:53:16,640 --> 00:53:18,719
Speaker 1: when you left the police, because you were such a

872
00:53:18,719 --> 00:53:21,120
Speaker 1: good role model and I know so many policewomen that

873
00:53:21,200 --> 00:53:23,719
Speaker 1: looked up to you and what you did, and you

874
00:53:24,520 --> 00:53:26,239
Speaker 1: walk to the booty of your own drum. But you

875
00:53:26,280 --> 00:53:28,600
Speaker 1: did it without compromise, you did it with integrity. So

876
00:53:28,960 --> 00:53:31,400
Speaker 1: congratulations on your career. And I'm not just saying that

877
00:53:31,480 --> 00:53:35,520
Speaker 1: because it's you. I congratulate everyone that's put in a proper,

878
00:53:36,040 --> 00:53:39,359
Speaker 1: proper career in policing. And I think it's pretty good.

879
00:53:39,400 --> 00:53:41,239
Speaker 1: And I don't want to get too emotional here that

880
00:53:41,680 --> 00:53:44,160
Speaker 1: we've been through a relationship. We've had our ups and downs,

881
00:53:44,160 --> 00:53:46,600
Speaker 1: but we're still friends, and I think that's a really

882
00:53:46,600 --> 00:53:47,000
Speaker 1: good thing.

883
00:53:47,120 --> 00:53:51,399
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's a terrific things, and I'm sure we will

884
00:53:51,440 --> 00:53:56,160
Speaker 3: to the end. I feel solidly that's the case. And yeah,

885
00:53:56,200 --> 00:53:58,960
Speaker 3: so I need to know when you get cremated, where

886
00:53:59,000 --> 00:54:02,239
Speaker 3: do you want your ashes spread? I think that's it's

887
00:54:02,320 --> 00:54:03,239
Speaker 3: relevant in this time.

888
00:54:03,239 --> 00:54:05,719
Speaker 4: I'm not sure how I'm going out this way, how

889
00:54:05,719 --> 00:54:07,640
Speaker 4: I'm going to go out at this stage, I don't know.

890
00:54:07,760 --> 00:54:09,440
Speaker 1: I might just wander off and no one will ever

891
00:54:09,480 --> 00:54:11,239
Speaker 1: see me again. But no, it is good that we

892
00:54:11,280 --> 00:54:14,719
Speaker 1: can have the friendship and we had that intense relationship

893
00:54:14,719 --> 00:54:17,480
Speaker 1: and good times and I know you've always got my

894
00:54:17,600 --> 00:54:19,640
Speaker 1: back and I've got your back, So I think that's

895
00:54:19,680 --> 00:54:21,160
Speaker 1: a nice message to leave it with.

896
00:54:21,200 --> 00:54:25,680
Speaker 3: To for sure mutual respect absolutely and dare I say

897
00:54:25,880 --> 00:54:26,880
Speaker 3: love Jubilae.

898
00:54:30,960 --> 00:54:33,880
Speaker 2: Thanks for coming on. Pat really enjoyed the chat. Cheers.

899
00:54:33,960 --> 00:54:39,759
Speaker 3: Thanks so much, Bebe.

900
00:54:40,160 --> 00:54:40,680
Speaker 2: Pam Young.

901
00:54:40,719 --> 00:54:44,280
Speaker 1: We obviously know each other very well and it's always

902
00:54:44,320 --> 00:54:47,640
Speaker 1: scary having an next come into a podcast studio to

903
00:54:48,040 --> 00:54:51,239
Speaker 1: talk about life in the past. But I hope people

904
00:54:51,239 --> 00:54:54,600
Speaker 1: will listen to the podcast understand why she was such

905
00:54:54,600 --> 00:54:57,680
Speaker 1: an impressive police officer and such a shame that she's

906
00:54:57,760 --> 00:55:00,440
Speaker 1: left New South Wales Police. I think it it's a

907
00:55:00,480 --> 00:55:03,880
Speaker 1: lesser organization for it. On a personal note, I just

908
00:55:03,920 --> 00:55:05,759
Speaker 1: think it's great. But two people who have been in

909
00:55:05,800 --> 00:55:08,920
Speaker 1: an intense relationship like we were that came to an

910
00:55:09,000 --> 00:55:11,480
Speaker 1: end can sit down and have a chat and still

911
00:55:11,480 --> 00:55:12,359
Speaker 1: have each other's back.

912
00:55:12,480 --> 00:55:15,840
Speaker 2: So probably the fears were unfounded. She didn't crush me

913
00:55:15,880 --> 00:55:16,279
Speaker 2: too much.

914
00:55:16,360 --> 00:55:19,120
Speaker 1: I hope people don't look at me differently after seeing

915
00:55:19,160 --> 00:55:20,759
Speaker 1: how Pam speaks to me.

916
00:55:20,840 --> 00:55:23,400
Speaker 2: But what a great role model for a police officer.

917
00:55:23,680 --> 00:55:26,799
Speaker 1: I don't think there's anyone better than retired Detective Chief

918
00:55:26,800 --> 00:55:27,919
Speaker 1: Inspector Pamily Young.