1 00:00:05,200 --> 00:00:08,039 Sean Aylmer: Welcome to the Fear and Greed Business Interview. I'm Sean Aylmer. 2 00:00:08,160 --> 00:00:11,440 Sean Aylmer: Liberation Day is almost here when US President Donald Trump 3 00:00:11,720 --> 00:00:16,720 Sean Aylmer: unveils reciprocal tariffs against countries imposing charges on US exports. 4 00:00:17,000 --> 00:00:20,000 Sean Aylmer: But the closer we get to April ti US time, 5 00:00:20,320 --> 00:00:22,560 Sean Aylmer: the more the President seems to be open to exemptions 6 00:00:22,600 --> 00:00:25,680 Sean Aylmer: and a more lenient approach. The extent to which Australia 7 00:00:25,720 --> 00:00:27,800 Sean Aylmer: will be hit remains to be seen in the response 8 00:00:27,840 --> 00:00:31,440 Sean Aylmer: by Prime Minister Anthony Albanese and Opposition leader Peter Dutton 9 00:00:31,640 --> 00:00:33,640 Sean Aylmer: may well have a major impact on the federal election. 10 00:00:33,760 --> 00:00:37,559 Sean Aylmer: Peter Hartcher is Political editor and International editor of The 11 00:00:37,640 --> 00:00:40,120 Sean Aylmer: Sydney Morning Herald and The Age. Peter, welcome back to 12 00:00:40,120 --> 00:00:43,559 Sean Aylmer: Fear and Greed Pleasure. You write recently that around the 13 00:00:43,560 --> 00:00:46,919 Sean Aylmer: world leaders are being defined by the quality of their 14 00:00:46,960 --> 00:00:50,640 Sean Aylmer: defiance of Donald Trump. Now perhaps no one has done 15 00:00:50,640 --> 00:00:53,640 Sean Aylmer: that better than Mark Carney in Canada, But just explain 16 00:00:53,760 --> 00:00:56,800 Sean Aylmer: what you mean, well. 17 00:00:57,080 --> 00:01:01,440 Peter Hartcher: Donald Trump is presenting a different density of threat to 18 00:01:01,480 --> 00:01:05,520 Peter Hartcher: different countries. The more intense the threat, and Canada is 19 00:01:06,000 --> 00:01:09,480 Peter Hartcher: a case study here, the more robust the leaders have 20 00:01:09,560 --> 00:01:13,680 Peter Hartcher: to respond. More robust leaders have to respond, the gentler 21 00:01:13,720 --> 00:01:17,720 Peter Hartcher: the threat, the more roomed leaders have to be more 22 00:01:17,720 --> 00:01:21,880 Peter Hartcher: equivocal or less angry. But in the case of Canada, 23 00:01:22,000 --> 00:01:25,319 Peter Hartcher: it took well. Justin Trudeau was Prime minister when Trump 24 00:01:25,400 --> 00:01:27,720 Peter Hartcher: first said he was going to take over Canada annex. 25 00:01:28,440 --> 00:01:31,600 Peter Hartcher: Canada is the fifty first state and Trudeau at that 26 00:01:31,640 --> 00:01:33,840 Peter Hartcher: point had been just completely written off by the Canadian 27 00:01:33,880 --> 00:01:38,160 Peter Hartcher: electorate and was regarded as complete has been a waste 28 00:01:38,200 --> 00:01:43,200 Peter Hartcher: of time. It took Donald Trump's threats to resuscitate revitalize 29 00:01:43,760 --> 00:01:46,880 Peter Hartcher: Justin Trudeau's standing, and he's left the Prime ministership, which 30 00:01:47,000 --> 00:01:50,400 Peter Hartcher: was preordained, already had a deadline on it. But it 31 00:01:50,480 --> 00:01:53,600 Peter Hartcher: sent him out a hero, he said, of a villain. 32 00:01:53,720 --> 00:01:57,680 Peter Hartcher: And then Mark Carney stepped in and had to calibrate 33 00:01:57,720 --> 00:02:01,720 Peter Hartcher: his response, and he's done that in pretty stiff terms. 34 00:02:02,320 --> 00:02:05,200 Peter Hartcher: He said, we will never be part of America. Trump's 35 00:02:05,200 --> 00:02:09,080 Peter Hartcher: demands are crazy. Canadians should buy Canadian and we're going 36 00:02:09,120 --> 00:02:13,800 Peter Hartcher: to beef up our independent defense arrangements. Australia was an 37 00:02:13,800 --> 00:02:16,639 Peter Hartcher: immediate beneficiary of that because within a few days, within 38 00:02:16,680 --> 00:02:19,480 Peter Hartcher: two weeks of him taking the Prime ministership, he'd agreed 39 00:02:19,480 --> 00:02:23,240 Peter Hartcher: to buy a six point five billion dollar genderly over 40 00:02:23,240 --> 00:02:25,800 Peter Hartcher: the horizon radar system from Australia, which is by far 41 00:02:25,840 --> 00:02:30,239 Peter Hartcher: the biggest foreign defense export Australia's ever made, because Canada 42 00:02:30,320 --> 00:02:33,720 Peter Hartcher: wants a inability independently of the US to monitor its 43 00:02:33,800 --> 00:02:37,120 Peter Hartcher: northern approaches into the Arctic. So that was his and 44 00:02:37,520 --> 00:02:42,440 Peter Hartcher: various countries' leaders who have stood up to Trump have 45 00:02:42,560 --> 00:02:45,400 Peter Hartcher: been rewarded. But it has to be intelligent. They can't, 46 00:02:45,560 --> 00:02:48,560 Peter Hartcher: you know, you can't just come out and smash him, 47 00:02:48,760 --> 00:02:53,720 Peter Hartcher: unmitigatively or unreasonably. The Mexicans have had to be more 48 00:02:54,000 --> 00:02:58,799 Peter Hartcher: subtle and more careful and yet still quietly defiant, and 49 00:02:58,880 --> 00:03:01,640 Peter Hartcher: that's worked for them. It's a little different all around 50 00:03:01,680 --> 00:03:05,720 Peter Hartcher: the world, but nobody seems to be profiting from just 51 00:03:06,400 --> 00:03:09,919 Peter Hartcher: total and abject cowtower to Donald Trump. 52 00:03:10,080 --> 00:03:13,400 Sean Aylmer: What about let's bring it home then, Anthony Abernezi, Peter Dutton, 53 00:03:14,120 --> 00:03:17,160 Sean Aylmer: they've got an election to win. How do they handle 54 00:03:17,200 --> 00:03:20,359 Sean Aylmer: this issue? And is it harder handling it from government 55 00:03:20,600 --> 00:03:21,840 Sean Aylmer: or from opposition? 56 00:03:23,480 --> 00:03:26,360 Peter Hartcher: It really suits neither in a very direct sense because 57 00:03:26,400 --> 00:03:30,960 Peter Hartcher: neither really wanted to conduct their campaign on foreign policy. 58 00:03:31,440 --> 00:03:36,080 Peter Hartcher: They each have their little separate corners of designated subjects 59 00:03:36,080 --> 00:03:41,000 Peter Hartcher: where the happiest to campaign. But at the margin, it 60 00:03:41,080 --> 00:03:44,640 Peter Hartcher: suits the Liberals better. And it suits the Liberals better 61 00:03:44,720 --> 00:03:49,000 Peter Hartcher: because traditionally their brand perception is that they are better 62 00:03:49,400 --> 00:03:53,760 Peter Hartcher: at dealing with defense and the impression among electors, and 63 00:03:53,760 --> 00:03:56,040 Peter Hartcher: this is born out in a poll that we're just 64 00:03:56,080 --> 00:04:00,200 Peter Hartcher: publishing now, but that Dutton marginally is better suited to 65 00:04:00,240 --> 00:04:04,000 Peter Hartcher: dealing with Donald Trump than Anthony Alberanzi. Whereas the Labor 66 00:04:04,040 --> 00:04:08,520 Peter Hartcher: Party is traditionally seen as a more caring party rather 67 00:04:08,560 --> 00:04:13,280 Peter Hartcher: than a sterner, overseeing sort of party. So while the 68 00:04:13,280 --> 00:04:16,719 Peter Hartcher: brand's perception of the Liberals is they're good with offense, 69 00:04:16,920 --> 00:04:21,279 Peter Hartcher: national security and fiscal rectitude, take that one with a 70 00:04:21,360 --> 00:04:25,000 Peter Hartcher: large grain of historical salt. These are perceptions, of course, 71 00:04:25,120 --> 00:04:28,440 Peter Hartcher: rather than realities. But the Labor Party, on the other hand, 72 00:04:28,520 --> 00:04:32,039 Peter Hartcher: is seen as a more caring party and its strengths 73 00:04:32,520 --> 00:04:38,279 Peter Hartcher: a health, education, social security, those softer so called issues. 74 00:04:38,720 --> 00:04:41,760 Peter Hartcher: So it doesn't really suit Abenesi and he didn't want 75 00:04:41,800 --> 00:04:43,840 Peter Hartcher: to talk about it. He still tries to avoid talking 76 00:04:43,839 --> 00:04:47,320 Peter Hartcher: about it. Whether it's China and the Chinese task group 77 00:04:47,960 --> 00:04:51,039 Peter Hartcher: that circumnavigated the country, whether it's a Chinese survey group 78 00:04:51,360 --> 00:04:54,599 Peter Hartcher: off the coast now, or whether it's Donald Trump and 79 00:04:54,680 --> 00:04:59,120 Peter Hartcher: Australian foreign policy and the alliance. But when confronted with 80 00:04:59,200 --> 00:05:04,240 Peter Hartcher: it and he can't escape it, he does talk about it, 81 00:05:04,240 --> 00:05:06,599 Peter Hartcher: but his way of dealing with it is to say 82 00:05:07,040 --> 00:05:10,080 Peter Hartcher: that it's to try and link it with Peter Dutton 83 00:05:11,400 --> 00:05:14,440 Peter Hartcher: and to say that, well, you know, these things that 84 00:05:14,480 --> 00:05:18,680 Peter Hartcher: Donald Trump is doing, like his rather wild, ham fisted, 85 00:05:18,760 --> 00:05:23,720 Peter Hartcher: chaotic and self harming to the US cuts in federal workforce, 86 00:05:23,760 --> 00:05:27,160 Peter Hartcher: federal public servants, it's exactly what Peter Dutton wants to 87 00:05:27,200 --> 00:05:30,960 Peter Hartcher: try to paint him indirectly as being some sort of 88 00:05:31,160 --> 00:05:36,320 Peter Hartcher: kin to Donald Trump. Whereas Peter dutton approach is to 89 00:05:36,320 --> 00:05:39,400 Peter Hartcher: say I could do a better deal with Trump because 90 00:05:40,040 --> 00:05:42,360 Peter Hartcher: Albanese is weak and I'm tough and I could get 91 00:05:42,400 --> 00:05:44,119 Peter Hartcher: him on the phone, which of course is a fiction. 92 00:05:44,360 --> 00:05:46,520 Peter Hartcher: But these are the two positions that they're taking. Neither 93 00:05:46,520 --> 00:05:48,760 Peter Hartcher: of them desperately want to talk about it, but at 94 00:05:48,760 --> 00:05:51,120 Peter Hartcher: the margin Dutton is happier to talk about it than Albanesi. 95 00:05:51,480 --> 00:05:53,479 Sean Aylmer: I want to talk more about the election campaign, about 96 00:05:53,480 --> 00:05:55,800 Sean Aylmer: the issues that all aside the next Prime Minister. We'll 97 00:05:55,839 --> 00:06:03,919 Sean Aylmer: be back in a moment. My guest this morning is 98 00:06:03,920 --> 00:06:06,640 Sean Aylmer: Peter Hartcher from this Sydney Morning Herald and the Age. 99 00:06:06,920 --> 00:06:09,919 Sean Aylmer: Few days into the election campaign, Peter, how do you 100 00:06:09,920 --> 00:06:12,159 Sean Aylmer: think they're both going so far? 101 00:06:12,839 --> 00:06:17,520 Peter Hartcher: Well, it's interesting to see that the Liberals look like 102 00:06:17,560 --> 00:06:19,840 Peter Hartcher: they've been taken by surprise, even though they've had three 103 00:06:19,880 --> 00:06:23,800 Peter Hartcher: years to prepare a lot of policy not written, a 104 00:06:23,800 --> 00:06:27,320 Peter Hartcher: lot of policy that's just vague and general, and they've 105 00:06:27,320 --> 00:06:29,480 Peter Hartcher: gone if you look at the electoral politics of it, 106 00:06:29,880 --> 00:06:32,080 Peter Hartcher: they've gone into this on the defensive. So on day 107 00:06:32,120 --> 00:06:35,240 Peter Hartcher: one of the campaign, Peter Dutton sat down to lunch 108 00:06:35,520 --> 00:06:39,159 Peter Hartcher: the business the Chinese business community in Brisbane, trying to 109 00:06:39,240 --> 00:06:43,200 Peter Hartcher: mend fences from the last campaign from the Morrison term, 110 00:06:43,600 --> 00:06:47,600 Peter Hartcher: where the Chinese Australian population turned against the Liberals rather 111 00:06:47,640 --> 00:06:52,080 Peter Hartcher: decisively because it was troubled by the aggressive rhetoric that 112 00:06:52,120 --> 00:06:56,360 Peter Hartcher: Morrison and Dutton used when talking about China. And again, 113 00:06:56,680 --> 00:07:01,360 Peter Hartcher: Peter Dutton has gone to a more before. He's been 114 00:07:01,400 --> 00:07:03,839 Peter Hartcher: to a church or a synagogue during the campaign, at 115 00:07:03,920 --> 00:07:08,159 Peter Hartcher: least to try to reassure Muslim voters that he's not 116 00:07:08,200 --> 00:07:10,160 Peter Hartcher: as horrible as they might think. So that's very much 117 00:07:10,200 --> 00:07:13,280 Peter Hartcher: on the defensive. That's trying to patch up my own weaknesses, 118 00:07:13,320 --> 00:07:16,200 Peter Hartcher: whereas Alban Easy very much has gone on the offensive, 119 00:07:16,320 --> 00:07:19,800 Peter Hartcher: and his first visit of the campaign was to Peter 120 00:07:20,080 --> 00:07:23,880 Peter Hartcher: Dutton's seat of Dixon in out of Brisbane, which Dutton 121 00:07:23,920 --> 00:07:26,920 Peter Hartcher: holds by quite a slender margins only around two percent. 122 00:07:27,360 --> 00:07:31,120 Peter Hartcher: And it's a direct challenge to Dutton to say we're 123 00:07:31,120 --> 00:07:32,680 Peter Hartcher: not only going to beat you, we're going to try 124 00:07:32,680 --> 00:07:35,040 Peter Hartcher: and knock you off your perch as well. So that's 125 00:07:35,080 --> 00:07:36,000 Peter Hartcher: quite a contrast. 126 00:07:36,680 --> 00:07:38,240 Sean Aylmer: Will it come down to the cost of living. 127 00:07:38,960 --> 00:07:43,480 Peter Hartcher: I think the cost of living is an indispensable element, 128 00:07:44,120 --> 00:07:49,800 Peter Hartcher: but I think the Trump atmospherics change the if you like, 129 00:07:49,880 --> 00:07:53,240 Peter Hartcher: the sort of the meta message or the overall quality 130 00:07:53,280 --> 00:07:56,840 Peter Hartcher: of the campaign. And I think this is partly reflected 131 00:07:57,440 --> 00:08:00,480 Peter Hartcher: in the change in the published polling in the last 132 00:08:00,520 --> 00:08:05,520 Peter Hartcher: couple of months. Albanesi Labor, after two years lagging, has 133 00:08:06,000 --> 00:08:08,240 Peter Hartcher: in most of the published polls, or in fact all 134 00:08:08,280 --> 00:08:11,760 Peter Hartcher: of the published polls, is either now fifty to fifty 135 00:08:12,000 --> 00:08:14,720 Peter Hartcher: or within one percentage point of that. So it's a 136 00:08:14,720 --> 00:08:18,600 Peter Hartcher: wide open election, but it's improved for Albenasi. And although 137 00:08:18,600 --> 00:08:22,680 Peter Hartcher: there have been some domestic considerations, a large looming one 138 00:08:22,920 --> 00:08:25,360 Peter Hartcher: was the fact that the Reserve Bank started a rate 139 00:08:25,400 --> 00:08:28,200 Peter Hartcher: what we will hope as a rate cutting cycle rather 140 00:08:28,240 --> 00:08:31,040 Peter Hartcher: than one off. But so they've been some domestic changes, 141 00:08:31,080 --> 00:08:35,920 Peter Hartcher: but it's also coincided with Trump's aggression on tariffs and 142 00:08:36,120 --> 00:08:40,040 Peter Hartcher: on allies and dumping Ukraine and all of that stuff. 143 00:08:40,559 --> 00:08:43,400 Peter Hartcher: I think that, and this is also borne out in 144 00:08:43,400 --> 00:08:48,000 Peter Hartcher: our polling, that the electorate is feeling anxious because this 145 00:08:48,120 --> 00:08:52,040 Peter Hartcher: now adds a new uncertainty. One certainty in Australian public 146 00:08:52,080 --> 00:08:54,520 Peter Hartcher: life post wars that the US is our friend. Well 147 00:08:54,520 --> 00:08:58,760 Peter Hartcher: that's now deeply in question, whether it's a friend or not, 148 00:08:59,520 --> 00:09:03,640 Peter Hartcher: or even is some sort of antagonist. So I think 149 00:09:03,679 --> 00:09:06,320 Peter Hartcher: the public is looking for reassurance and the party that 150 00:09:06,440 --> 00:09:09,559 Peter Hartcher: can reassure their economic certainty at home, cost of living, 151 00:09:09,920 --> 00:09:14,640 Peter Hartcher: future income prospects, future growth, and also the sort of 152 00:09:15,200 --> 00:09:19,000 Peter Hartcher: national existential sense of uncertainty now that we're seem to 153 00:09:19,040 --> 00:09:23,199 Peter Hartcher: be adrift in a turbulent world. The phrase I've used 154 00:09:23,200 --> 00:09:27,080 Peter Hartcher: in print is that without serious proposals from either party 155 00:09:27,160 --> 00:09:32,600 Peter Hartcher: for an actual economic rejuvenation of Australia or a convincing 156 00:09:33,280 --> 00:09:37,760 Peter Hartcher: security and defense policy from either party, that we are 157 00:09:38,360 --> 00:09:42,840 Peter Hartcher: heading into a tempest writing in the Tinney, and voters 158 00:09:42,840 --> 00:09:44,520 Peter Hartcher: want an answer to that. They don't feel good about that, 159 00:09:44,559 --> 00:09:45,480 Peter Hartcher: they want to feel better. 160 00:09:45,880 --> 00:09:48,840 Sean Aylmer: In your time, I was going to call you a veteran, Peter, 161 00:09:48,920 --> 00:09:51,040 Sean Aylmer: But you're not. You're a junior. He's been around a 162 00:09:51,080 --> 00:09:55,240 Sean Aylmer: long time. Tell me, tell me have we ever had 163 00:09:55,440 --> 00:09:58,319 Sean Aylmer: a campaign, mean since the sixties, I suppose that we've 164 00:09:58,360 --> 00:10:03,120 Sean Aylmer: had such an out haide influence on how people are thinking. 165 00:10:04,920 --> 00:10:07,040 Peter Hartcher: Well, there's a couple of things to say about that. 166 00:10:07,440 --> 00:10:11,280 Peter Hartcher: As you say, Sean, the last time I consulted an 167 00:10:11,280 --> 00:10:15,880 Peter Hartcher: expert of military historian, Peter Dean, who also happened to 168 00:10:15,880 --> 00:10:19,280 Peter Hartcher: be the co author of the current government's Defense Strategic Review, 169 00:10:20,320 --> 00:10:23,120 Peter Hartcher: When was the last time that the defense budget was 170 00:10:23,160 --> 00:10:26,080 Peter Hartcher: a significant part debate over the defense budget was a 171 00:10:26,360 --> 00:10:29,240 Peter Hartcher: significant part of an election campaign? And he said, yes, 172 00:10:29,400 --> 00:10:31,840 Peter Hartcher: it would have been in the early sixties when Menses 173 00:10:31,960 --> 00:10:36,040 Peter Hartcher: was in power and the confrontaci crisis with Indonesia was underway. 174 00:10:37,600 --> 00:10:42,120 Peter Hartcher: But this is, if you cast a net slightly more broadly, 175 00:10:43,120 --> 00:10:45,959 Peter Hartcher: this is the second consecutive campaign we've had where foreign 176 00:10:46,000 --> 00:10:50,199 Peter Hartcher: policy has intruded into domestic affairs. Last time the twenty 177 00:10:50,200 --> 00:10:53,240 Peter Hartcher: twenty two campaign, when Morrison was in power. You will 178 00:10:53,240 --> 00:10:56,599 Peter Hartcher: remember it was the shock that China had signed a 179 00:10:56,640 --> 00:11:00,560 Peter Hartcher: security deal with the Solomon Islands and that really armed 180 00:11:00,880 --> 00:11:04,720 Peter Hartcher: the Morrison government because expose them as being incompetent in 181 00:11:04,760 --> 00:11:08,200 Peter Hartcher: foreign policy, and that really damaged them. So it wasn't 182 00:11:08,240 --> 00:11:11,760 Peter Hartcher: defense spending, but it's certainly security related and that's now 183 00:11:11,800 --> 00:11:13,720 Peter Hartcher: too in a row. And can I suggest so be 184 00:11:13,760 --> 00:11:17,280 Peter Hartcher: so bold as to suggest, Sean that this will become 185 00:11:17,280 --> 00:11:21,319 Peter Hartcher: a permanent feature of our politics because the two principal 186 00:11:21,360 --> 00:11:24,400 Peter Hartcher: sources of disruption are are not going away, and they are, 187 00:11:24,440 --> 00:11:29,920 Peter Hartcher: of course China's ambitions for domination and America's unsettling and 188 00:11:30,000 --> 00:11:33,280 Peter Hartcher: Donald Trump's overturning of the entire global order. 189 00:11:33,920 --> 00:11:36,040 Sean Aylmer: It kind of makes for an interesting election. I'm not 190 00:11:36,080 --> 00:11:37,640 Sean Aylmer: sure the funds the right word, but it certainly makes 191 00:11:37,640 --> 00:11:38,480 Sean Aylmer: for an interesting election. 192 00:11:38,559 --> 00:11:42,240 Peter Hartcher: Peter, Yeah, well, these are big problems and big threats, 193 00:11:42,240 --> 00:11:43,959 Peter Hartcher: and it's no wonder the parties don't really want to 194 00:11:44,000 --> 00:11:47,400 Peter Hartcher: talk about them because they don't have ready solutions. The 195 00:11:47,440 --> 00:11:49,960 Peter Hartcher: Liberals have promised us that they're going to spend more 196 00:11:49,960 --> 00:11:52,640 Peter Hartcher: money on defense than labor, and they're going to give 197 00:11:52,679 --> 00:11:55,040 Peter Hartcher: us the details of that in the weeks ahead, so 198 00:11:55,360 --> 00:11:57,080 Peter Hartcher: it'll be interesting to see what they come up with. 199 00:11:58,160 --> 00:12:02,680 Peter Hartcher: Whereas Labor has really just slightly reschedule some of its 200 00:12:03,240 --> 00:12:08,000 Peter Hartcher: already announced defense spending, obviously thinking that they don't need 201 00:12:08,040 --> 00:12:10,760 Peter Hartcher: to do anything more. But I think both parties are 202 00:12:10,800 --> 00:12:12,760 Peter Hartcher: really a bit stuck here because they want to look 203 00:12:13,200 --> 00:12:16,480 Peter Hartcher: as if they're active and responsive, but they don't have answers, 204 00:12:16,559 --> 00:12:18,400 Peter Hartcher: and they don't want to look they don't want to 205 00:12:18,440 --> 00:12:21,800 Peter Hartcher: seem to be unsettling the electorates. It's a delicate line 206 00:12:21,800 --> 00:12:26,120 Peter Hartcher: they have to walk between being vigilant and being competent 207 00:12:26,720 --> 00:12:29,120 Peter Hartcher: but yet not alarming anybody and trying to reassure the 208 00:12:29,120 --> 00:12:31,240 Peter Hartcher: public as well, and I don't think either side's got 209 00:12:31,320 --> 00:12:31,959 Peter Hartcher: that right yet. 210 00:12:32,200 --> 00:12:33,880 Sean Aylmer: Peter, thank you for talking to Fear and Greed. 211 00:12:34,240 --> 00:12:34,920 Peter Hartcher: Always a pleasure. 212 00:12:35,320 --> 00:12:38,360 Sean Aylmer: It's Peter Hartcher, political editor and international editor of The 213 00:12:38,360 --> 00:12:41,040 Sean Aylmer: Sydney Morning Herald and The Age. This is a Fear 214 00:12:41,080 --> 00:12:43,280 Sean Aylmer: and Greed business interview. Join us every morning for the 215 00:12:43,280 --> 00:12:45,920 Sean Aylmer: full episode of Fear and Greed, daily business news for 216 00:12:45,960 --> 00:12:49,199 Sean Aylmer: people who make their own decisions. I'm Sean Aylmer. Enjoy 217 00:12:49,200 --> 00:12:52,480 Sean Aylmer: your day.