1 00:00:05,881 --> 00:00:07,801 Speaker 1: Appote production. 2 00:00:14,161 --> 00:00:16,361 Speaker 2: Welcome to Real Crime at Adam shand I'm your host 3 00:00:16,401 --> 00:00:20,360 Speaker 2: Adam Shann. There's powerful evidence that at least one or 4 00:00:20,441 --> 00:00:23,801 Speaker 2: more unknown serial killers operated in New South Wales from 5 00:00:23,801 --> 00:00:27,841 Speaker 2: the late nineteen sixties through to twenty ten. More than 6 00:00:27,961 --> 00:00:31,081 Speaker 2: sixty women who were found dead or who have vanished 7 00:00:31,121 --> 00:00:33,880 Speaker 2: in northern New South Wales between nineteen ninety seven and 8 00:00:33,921 --> 00:00:37,801 Speaker 2: two thousand and nine. There are too many unsolved murders 9 00:00:37,840 --> 00:00:41,641 Speaker 2: and disappearances, particularly of young women, for that not to 10 00:00:41,681 --> 00:00:46,281 Speaker 2: be the case. They often disappeared in pairs, while hitchhiking 11 00:00:46,641 --> 00:00:49,881 Speaker 2: on nights out or simply going about their business. 12 00:00:50,200 --> 00:00:53,801 Speaker 3: Police have renewed appeals for information into the disappearance of 13 00:00:53,840 --> 00:00:56,241 Speaker 3: two young women in nineteen seventeen ninety. 14 00:00:56,961 --> 00:01:00,401 Speaker 2: There are clusters of cases in four New South Wales regions, 15 00:01:00,961 --> 00:01:06,121 Speaker 2: the Southern Highlands, Inner Sydney, Newcastle and the North Coast. 16 00:01:06,081 --> 00:01:08,041 Speaker 3: Where it appears there are links. 17 00:01:08,721 --> 00:01:12,920 Speaker 2: For instance, six young women disappeared in the one year 18 00:01:13,280 --> 00:01:17,481 Speaker 2: between nineteen seventy eight and seventy nine in the Newcastle area. 19 00:01:17,681 --> 00:01:21,000 Speaker 4: Police have renewed appeals for information into the disappearance of 20 00:01:21,081 --> 00:01:24,440 Speaker 4: two young women in Newcastle, last seen hitchhiking on the 21 00:01:24,441 --> 00:01:25,280 Speaker 4: Pacific Highway. 22 00:01:26,840 --> 00:01:30,840 Speaker 2: Each year, these cases grow colder and harder to solve, 23 00:01:31,200 --> 00:01:36,881 Speaker 2: despite reinvestigations and rewards being posted by New South Wales Police. 24 00:01:37,000 --> 00:01:38,920 Speaker 2: Each year, the loved ones of the missing and the 25 00:01:39,000 --> 00:01:44,601 Speaker 2: murdered grow older and their hopes of closure grow ever dimmer. Now, 26 00:01:44,601 --> 00:01:47,761 Speaker 2: a member of New South Wales Parliament, Jeremy Buckingham of 27 00:01:47,801 --> 00:01:51,561 Speaker 2: the Legalized Cannabis Party, has succeeded in having a parliamentary 28 00:01:51,601 --> 00:01:54,681 Speaker 2: inquiry set up to look at these cases and the 29 00:01:54,721 --> 00:01:58,361 Speaker 2: possible links between them. There is new pressure for a 30 00:01:58,401 --> 00:02:03,841 Speaker 2: parliamentary inquiry into serial killer Ivan the Last. The inquiry 31 00:02:03,881 --> 00:02:06,601 Speaker 2: will look at the current and merging developments in policy, 32 00:02:06,961 --> 00:02:10,801 Speaker 2: practice and technology in relation to these crimes, and whether 33 00:02:11,161 --> 00:02:14,161 Speaker 2: there are impediments in the criminal justice system that have 34 00:02:14,321 --> 00:02:17,840 Speaker 2: forwarded the delivery of justice to victims and their families. 35 00:02:19,161 --> 00:02:24,001 Speaker 2: This is long overdue and hopefully will bring accountability where 36 00:02:24,081 --> 00:02:25,400 Speaker 2: there has been none. 37 00:02:26,240 --> 00:02:28,521 Speaker 3: And Jeremy is my guest today, can I Jeremy? 38 00:02:29,960 --> 00:02:30,561 Speaker 1: Good day, Adam. 39 00:02:30,641 --> 00:02:33,081 Speaker 3: Great to be with you, absolute pleasure to have you on. 40 00:02:33,601 --> 00:02:37,081 Speaker 3: You're quite courageous. A lot of politicians have let this go. 41 00:02:37,481 --> 00:02:39,521 Speaker 2: You can see the length of time these cold cases 42 00:02:39,561 --> 00:02:41,201 Speaker 2: have remained unsolved. 43 00:02:41,960 --> 00:02:44,161 Speaker 3: What is motivating you, Well, it's. 44 00:02:44,001 --> 00:02:44,680 Speaker 1: A good question. 45 00:02:45,041 --> 00:02:49,601 Speaker 4: Sometimes I wonder, but I think it's purely just justice. 46 00:02:49,800 --> 00:02:55,201 Speaker 4: I just imagine being in the circumstance of not knowing 47 00:02:55,641 --> 00:02:59,960 Speaker 4: what happened to my child, my sister, my brother, or 48 00:03:00,441 --> 00:03:04,081 Speaker 4: knowing that they had met an incredibly grizzly end at 49 00:03:04,081 --> 00:03:08,201 Speaker 4: the hands of a murderer who abducted them and tortured 50 00:03:08,240 --> 00:03:11,361 Speaker 4: and raped them and murdered them, and not having justice. 51 00:03:11,401 --> 00:03:13,840 Speaker 4: And I just think it is just an utterly untenable 52 00:03:13,881 --> 00:03:18,801 Speaker 4: and egregious circumstance that, as an MP, where we're talking 53 00:03:18,800 --> 00:03:23,081 Speaker 4: about doing better for the community, creating laws that protect 54 00:03:23,161 --> 00:03:26,761 Speaker 4: the community, to have a situation where justice has. 55 00:03:26,601 --> 00:03:27,520 Speaker 1: Not been served. 56 00:03:27,680 --> 00:03:32,881 Speaker 4: And I think that it's a reasonable use of taxpayer resources. 57 00:03:32,881 --> 00:03:36,361 Speaker 4: I'm on the taxpayer dime to look at these murdered 58 00:03:36,441 --> 00:03:40,721 Speaker 4: and missing cases, these unsolved homicides, And the more I 59 00:03:40,761 --> 00:03:43,361 Speaker 4: do so, the more I realize that there's been a 60 00:03:43,401 --> 00:03:46,521 Speaker 4: pressing need in the community for a long time. People 61 00:03:46,601 --> 00:03:50,481 Speaker 4: for decades have been saying what happened to my loved one? 62 00:03:50,681 --> 00:03:54,121 Speaker 4: What happened in our society that this was able to occur, 63 00:03:54,241 --> 00:03:57,441 Speaker 4: And once you start to pull up that thread, it 64 00:03:57,561 --> 00:04:02,241 Speaker 4: turns into a great big tapestry of woe as sadness. 65 00:04:02,281 --> 00:04:04,641 Speaker 4: And once you know, you can't not know and you 66 00:04:04,681 --> 00:04:07,761 Speaker 4: can't earn your back, and so you know, justice delayed 67 00:04:07,961 --> 00:04:08,961 Speaker 4: is justice denied. 68 00:04:09,201 --> 00:04:11,361 Speaker 1: And that's the business I'm in. 69 00:04:11,881 --> 00:04:13,881 Speaker 2: Yes, he used a metaphor about pulling the thread on 70 00:04:13,921 --> 00:04:18,041 Speaker 2: the tapestry, and I think what we may well see here, 71 00:04:18,081 --> 00:04:20,321 Speaker 2: and the critics of the police will say this, that 72 00:04:20,361 --> 00:04:23,640 Speaker 2: you pull on that thread and you'll see decades of inaction, 73 00:04:24,521 --> 00:04:29,801 Speaker 2: in competence and failure to get results from your South 74 00:04:29,841 --> 00:04:30,721 Speaker 2: Wales police. 75 00:04:31,320 --> 00:04:32,961 Speaker 3: I guess it's implicit. 76 00:04:33,401 --> 00:04:35,361 Speaker 2: And the fact that you're going into Parliament to do 77 00:04:35,401 --> 00:04:37,601 Speaker 2: this rather than saying to the police or the coroner, 78 00:04:38,201 --> 00:04:40,041 Speaker 2: those bodies just to get. 79 00:04:39,880 --> 00:04:40,281 Speaker 3: On with it. 80 00:04:41,041 --> 00:04:42,081 Speaker 1: That's exactly right. 81 00:04:42,161 --> 00:04:44,640 Speaker 4: There's a certain point where you say, you haven't got 82 00:04:44,641 --> 00:04:47,320 Speaker 4: a result for fifty years? 83 00:04:47,601 --> 00:04:50,121 Speaker 1: What went wrong? How could that possibly be? 84 00:04:50,561 --> 00:04:54,880 Speaker 4: And once you start learning how many of these cases 85 00:04:54,921 --> 00:04:58,761 Speaker 4: that there are, once you start learning what happened in 86 00:04:58,801 --> 00:05:02,681 Speaker 4: those early days or of a disappearance or murder, you 87 00:05:02,761 --> 00:05:06,521 Speaker 4: realize lot invariably there are couple of good cops doing 88 00:05:06,521 --> 00:05:09,841 Speaker 4: some work, but it just peeded out really quickly. Or 89 00:05:09,880 --> 00:05:14,521 Speaker 4: in some instances, no one did anything. Someone disappeared, they 90 00:05:14,521 --> 00:05:18,320 Speaker 4: were abducted, they just disappeared into the night or from 91 00:05:18,361 --> 00:05:21,640 Speaker 4: a bus stop or hitch hiking, and there's no evidence 92 00:05:21,841 --> 00:05:25,241 Speaker 4: that anyone did anything for decades. And you say that 93 00:05:25,361 --> 00:05:27,320 Speaker 4: and people say, oh, that can't be the case, or 94 00:05:27,320 --> 00:05:31,961 Speaker 4: that must be an isolated incident. Well it was systemic. 95 00:05:32,440 --> 00:05:35,601 Speaker 4: It was systemic. And that's the case that I've been 96 00:05:35,641 --> 00:05:40,161 Speaker 4: making with the community for the last few years, and 97 00:05:40,401 --> 00:05:43,241 Speaker 4: I've been able to carry the day in the Parliament 98 00:05:43,440 --> 00:05:46,921 Speaker 4: and convince the Parliament that this is a necessary use 99 00:05:46,961 --> 00:05:49,440 Speaker 4: of the Parliament's time and that this is something that 100 00:05:49,481 --> 00:05:53,401 Speaker 4: the community demands answers to. And yes, there is an 101 00:05:53,440 --> 00:05:56,321 Speaker 4: explicit criticism of the police in this. 102 00:05:56,681 --> 00:05:59,121 Speaker 1: How could this happen? How can we do better? 103 00:05:59,320 --> 00:06:02,520 Speaker 4: And what were the impediments to actually getting a result 104 00:06:02,880 --> 00:06:06,881 Speaker 4: in these areas? Was it incompetent, was it negligence or 105 00:06:07,361 --> 00:06:10,080 Speaker 4: was it something more sinister? People turned a blind eye 106 00:06:10,561 --> 00:06:12,881 Speaker 4: to some of these crimes. 107 00:06:13,281 --> 00:06:15,001 Speaker 2: Well, that's right, and I think in a number of 108 00:06:15,001 --> 00:06:18,001 Speaker 2: the cases that you've looked at, and you've included in 109 00:06:18,041 --> 00:06:23,281 Speaker 2: this list for the inquiry cases where Ivan Malatt was 110 00:06:23,320 --> 00:06:26,961 Speaker 2: potentially a suspect, And I guess from the point of 111 00:06:27,041 --> 00:06:28,681 Speaker 2: view of a policeman that doesn't want to do too 112 00:06:28,761 --> 00:06:33,161 Speaker 2: much work, you've already got him in custody, he's now dead. Anyway, 113 00:06:34,281 --> 00:06:37,001 Speaker 2: Is there much point I'm just trying to rationalize their 114 00:06:37,041 --> 00:06:40,320 Speaker 2: motivation here. Is there much point in expanding energy on 115 00:06:40,401 --> 00:06:43,201 Speaker 2: those cases when there's no one to bring before the court? 116 00:06:44,521 --> 00:06:47,641 Speaker 1: Well, the answer that is absolutely yes. 117 00:06:47,761 --> 00:06:49,561 Speaker 4: How could it be that you would say, look, we 118 00:06:49,641 --> 00:06:52,521 Speaker 4: don't want to pursue someone who's a murderer for all 119 00:06:52,601 --> 00:06:55,321 Speaker 4: their crimes. I don't care if it was seven or 120 00:06:55,361 --> 00:06:59,081 Speaker 4: seventeen or seventy or seven hundred, and I think that 121 00:06:59,121 --> 00:07:02,320 Speaker 4: there are scores And I'm joined in that view by 122 00:07:02,801 --> 00:07:06,361 Speaker 4: senior police who worked on the task force, that he 123 00:07:06,401 --> 00:07:11,801 Speaker 4: was responsible for so many more murders, abductions, rapes, and 124 00:07:11,881 --> 00:07:16,721 Speaker 4: probably wasn't on his own. The justice that sentenced Malat 125 00:07:17,081 --> 00:07:21,121 Speaker 4: to seven life terms plus a period of time for 126 00:07:21,161 --> 00:07:23,681 Speaker 4: the abduction of Paul Onions said that he was a 127 00:07:23,721 --> 00:07:29,121 Speaker 4: participant with others in a criminal enterprise. So who are 128 00:07:29,201 --> 00:07:32,801 Speaker 4: those other people and what was that enterprise? What were 129 00:07:32,801 --> 00:07:36,761 Speaker 4: they actually doing? Why were they so readily able to 130 00:07:36,841 --> 00:07:40,961 Speaker 4: go out there abduct people murder them and almost do 131 00:07:41,081 --> 00:07:45,161 Speaker 4: it with an indifference. They didn't really care about the 132 00:07:45,201 --> 00:07:48,641 Speaker 4: bodies being found. They almost acted like they felt like 133 00:07:48,721 --> 00:07:52,241 Speaker 4: they had impunity. And so I want to look at 134 00:07:52,401 --> 00:07:56,881 Speaker 4: the relationship that Ivan Malatt and his associates, his family, 135 00:07:57,161 --> 00:08:02,001 Speaker 4: his friends, some of his powerful friends had and whether 136 00:08:02,121 --> 00:08:05,761 Speaker 4: or not that was cause for him not to be pursued. 137 00:08:06,041 --> 00:08:09,081 Speaker 4: Because the story we're told about Ivan Malatt, who was 138 00:08:09,121 --> 00:08:13,881 Speaker 4: this suburban bloke, this hard working ocker, sort of lone 139 00:08:13,961 --> 00:08:18,521 Speaker 4: wolf road worker, very familiar type with his family, controlling 140 00:08:18,601 --> 00:08:23,121 Speaker 4: in coercive relationship with his wife surprise in the sixties, 141 00:08:23,521 --> 00:08:26,561 Speaker 4: but really hadn't been in any trouble since then. And 142 00:08:26,601 --> 00:08:30,641 Speaker 4: then just in the end of the nineteen eighties nineteen nineties, 143 00:08:30,841 --> 00:08:35,041 Speaker 4: he decides that, well, one of his favorite pastimes is 144 00:08:35,081 --> 00:08:40,801 Speaker 4: abducting hitchhikers from the side of the Hume Highway and viciously. 145 00:08:40,361 --> 00:08:44,041 Speaker 1: Murdering them in the forest over three or four years. Now. 146 00:08:44,481 --> 00:08:46,801 Speaker 4: I don't accept that that's the truth. I do believe 147 00:08:46,841 --> 00:08:49,361 Speaker 4: that he did that, and he was convicted of that, 148 00:08:49,641 --> 00:08:53,081 Speaker 4: but I believe he was involved in that with other people. 149 00:08:53,161 --> 00:08:55,921 Speaker 4: The judge found that he was involved in a criminal 150 00:08:56,081 --> 00:08:59,921 Speaker 4: enterprise with others. And I think that that sort of proclivity, 151 00:09:00,001 --> 00:09:06,881 Speaker 4: that sort of behavior, that pathology and psychopathic violent statistic behavior, 152 00:09:07,161 --> 00:09:09,441 Speaker 4: has got to have a big run up, that he's. 153 00:09:09,321 --> 00:09:11,641 Speaker 1: Highly likely to have done other things. 154 00:09:11,841 --> 00:09:14,801 Speaker 4: And if you look at his prize in nineteen seventy one, 155 00:09:15,121 --> 00:09:19,721 Speaker 4: he's charged for a double rape down on the Hume Highway. 156 00:09:19,921 --> 00:09:23,961 Speaker 4: He's also charged over an armed robbery, two armed robberies 157 00:09:24,241 --> 00:09:28,481 Speaker 4: with wounding and beats all those charges, beats them in 158 00:09:28,521 --> 00:09:31,841 Speaker 4: a four day period in nineteen seventy four, after having 159 00:09:31,881 --> 00:09:34,681 Speaker 4: been on the run for three years, dodging the chargers, 160 00:09:34,961 --> 00:09:37,401 Speaker 4: and that he doesn't get a parking ticket. He works 161 00:09:37,401 --> 00:09:40,241 Speaker 4: for the DMR and he's a perfectly good boy for 162 00:09:40,361 --> 00:09:43,601 Speaker 4: twenty years until he's arrested as Australia's worst serial killer. 163 00:09:43,801 --> 00:09:44,841 Speaker 1: I just don't accept that. 164 00:09:45,241 --> 00:09:47,801 Speaker 4: And the story we're told about Malat, just in that 165 00:09:48,001 --> 00:09:52,281 Speaker 4: key story about him praying on hitchhikers, well that's not 166 00:09:52,441 --> 00:09:57,441 Speaker 4: true either, because only one of the seven backpackers was 167 00:09:57,521 --> 00:10:01,161 Speaker 4: ever seen on the Hume Highway, Simone Schmiedel. The other 168 00:10:01,321 --> 00:10:05,841 Speaker 4: six were all last seen alive in Paddington and Darlinghurst, 169 00:10:06,081 --> 00:10:10,921 Speaker 4: and in particular Gubore Neugebauer and Anya Hubshi left the 170 00:10:10,961 --> 00:10:15,121 Speaker 4: backpackers saying that they had already organized. 171 00:10:14,561 --> 00:10:15,721 Speaker 1: The lift with a man. 172 00:10:16,201 --> 00:10:20,001 Speaker 4: So it makes me wonder whether or not Ivan Malatt 173 00:10:20,321 --> 00:10:23,361 Speaker 4: was hunting people at the source in in the Sydney 174 00:10:23,561 --> 00:10:25,961 Speaker 4: and other places and had been doing so for a 175 00:10:26,001 --> 00:10:30,921 Speaker 4: long time. Other senior police Paul Gordon Nevil Scullion, they 176 00:10:31,041 --> 00:10:34,241 Speaker 4: thought that Ivan Malatt could be responsible for eighty murders. 177 00:10:34,841 --> 00:10:39,121 Speaker 4: Plus the information I've had out of the Parliament says 178 00:10:39,161 --> 00:10:42,481 Speaker 4: that Task Force Fenwick, which our inquiry is looking into, 179 00:10:42,921 --> 00:10:47,921 Speaker 4: had twenty murders that clearly had Ivan's mo and Task 180 00:10:48,041 --> 00:10:51,601 Speaker 4: Force Air the Backpacker task Force had a short list 181 00:10:51,641 --> 00:10:55,361 Speaker 4: of fifty murders around Australia that looked similar to this. 182 00:10:55,681 --> 00:10:59,241 Speaker 4: And how many of all of those was Ivan charged 183 00:10:59,281 --> 00:11:02,881 Speaker 4: with or pursued over none? Zero And I just don't 184 00:11:02,881 --> 00:11:04,001 Speaker 4: accept that that's good enough. 185 00:11:05,321 --> 00:11:09,081 Speaker 2: Yeah, there's several in your list the police have previously 186 00:11:09,201 --> 00:11:12,601 Speaker 2: said have the hallmarks of Arden and Malatt, people like 187 00:11:12,681 --> 00:11:16,761 Speaker 2: Debra Balkan, Gillian Jamison disappeared in nineteen eighty from a 188 00:11:16,761 --> 00:11:20,641 Speaker 2: Paramatta hotel. Peter Letcher nineteen eighty eighty was stabbed and 189 00:11:20,721 --> 00:11:25,081 Speaker 2: shot and buried in a very similar way. Diane Pinaccio, 190 00:11:25,201 --> 00:11:28,881 Speaker 2: who was found decomposed in Teleganda. 191 00:11:28,321 --> 00:11:31,561 Speaker 3: State Forest near bil Angelo, and the list goes on. 192 00:11:31,921 --> 00:11:33,121 Speaker 3: You could probably point to more. 193 00:11:33,521 --> 00:11:35,921 Speaker 4: Those two are really interesting that and I'm glad you've 194 00:11:35,921 --> 00:11:38,681 Speaker 4: picked up on those at them. Diane Pinaccio and Peter 195 00:11:38,841 --> 00:11:42,521 Speaker 4: Letcher were killed in the same way, at the same time, 196 00:11:42,881 --> 00:11:45,401 Speaker 4: with the same In Peter Letcher's case, there was a 197 00:11:45,441 --> 00:11:48,841 Speaker 4: twenty two rifle, the same type of gun that Ivan 198 00:11:48,881 --> 00:11:52,601 Speaker 4: Malatt used. So two murders at the same time, in 199 00:11:52,641 --> 00:11:54,681 Speaker 4: the same place, in the same. 200 00:11:54,561 --> 00:11:56,481 Speaker 1: Way, and they're not pursued. 201 00:11:56,721 --> 00:12:00,921 Speaker 4: And what's alarming about the Diane Pinaccio case in particular 202 00:12:01,161 --> 00:12:04,641 Speaker 4: was that the task force that was looking at Malat 203 00:12:05,281 --> 00:12:09,361 Speaker 4: had identified her and Peter and those other cases, but 204 00:12:09,521 --> 00:12:12,761 Speaker 4: they ruled out a link with Diane Pinaccio. They put 205 00:12:12,761 --> 00:12:16,841 Speaker 4: out a press statement ruling out Ivan Malatt as a 206 00:12:16,841 --> 00:12:20,801 Speaker 4: potential suspect in that the day they arrested him on 207 00:12:20,841 --> 00:12:24,721 Speaker 4: the twenty second of May nineteen ninety four, they put 208 00:12:24,721 --> 00:12:28,321 Speaker 4: out a press release saying the eighth potential victim is 209 00:12:28,401 --> 00:12:32,121 Speaker 4: not linked and with no reason. Despite police saying there 210 00:12:32,161 --> 00:12:37,001 Speaker 4: were remarkable similarities between the cases, and I just think, 211 00:12:37,201 --> 00:12:38,441 Speaker 4: how can that possibly be? 212 00:12:38,761 --> 00:12:41,521 Speaker 1: And I work and I'm not being paranoid or a 213 00:12:41,521 --> 00:12:45,561 Speaker 1: conspiracy theorist. What is it the case that the police 214 00:12:45,721 --> 00:12:49,121 Speaker 1: did not want to go back and look thoroughly at 215 00:12:49,161 --> 00:12:53,921 Speaker 1: how many people he and his associates could have possibly killed. 216 00:12:54,081 --> 00:12:55,601 Speaker 1: Was it in their interest to do that? 217 00:12:55,921 --> 00:12:58,761 Speaker 4: And was it in the interest of other people, politicians 218 00:12:58,801 --> 00:13:01,161 Speaker 4: and others to go back and say, well, hold on, 219 00:13:01,521 --> 00:13:04,841 Speaker 4: this guy might have been killing people for decades across 220 00:13:04,881 --> 00:13:08,401 Speaker 4: the country and the death toll could be staggering in 221 00:13:08,441 --> 00:13:09,641 Speaker 4: a national scandal. 222 00:13:10,641 --> 00:13:13,801 Speaker 2: Well, that's right, and it's a damning indictment on Usipbal's 223 00:13:13,841 --> 00:13:16,321 Speaker 2: police if they've decided not to look at cases that 224 00:13:16,401 --> 00:13:19,921 Speaker 2: clearly have hallmarks. I mean, I'm not Mlat's defense counsel here, 225 00:13:19,921 --> 00:13:22,041 Speaker 2: but I've got to say that a twenty two rifle 226 00:13:22,121 --> 00:13:27,041 Speaker 2: is extremely common around the country, So that alone doesn't 227 00:13:27,281 --> 00:13:28,761 Speaker 2: for me make compelling evidence. 228 00:13:28,801 --> 00:13:31,881 Speaker 3: But I think there's so much in the timing where 229 00:13:31,881 --> 00:13:33,481 Speaker 3: we can't account for Malat. 230 00:13:33,801 --> 00:13:37,321 Speaker 2: I even look into Queensland, the Murder Highway issues up there, 231 00:13:37,721 --> 00:13:41,801 Speaker 2: and Anita Cunningham and Robin Hoyneville Bartram in the early 232 00:13:41,841 --> 00:13:46,481 Speaker 2: seventies in North Queensland, and in that case people So no, no, no, 233 00:13:46,721 --> 00:13:49,081 Speaker 2: Malat wasn't in Queensland. He was in New Zealand at 234 00:13:49,081 --> 00:13:51,601 Speaker 2: the time. But I think it's been proven by some 235 00:13:51,641 --> 00:13:53,881 Speaker 2: pretty good ex detectives up there. But yes, he could 236 00:13:53,921 --> 00:13:57,441 Speaker 2: have been up there then. So there is a lot 237 00:13:57,521 --> 00:13:59,081 Speaker 2: of cases that could be linked to. 238 00:13:59,081 --> 00:14:03,161 Speaker 4: Malat, absolutely, And in terms of the Peter Letcher case, 239 00:14:03,721 --> 00:14:06,201 Speaker 4: it wasn't just that there was a twin. It was 240 00:14:06,241 --> 00:14:08,881 Speaker 4: the way his body was disposed of. It was jammed 241 00:14:08,961 --> 00:14:12,241 Speaker 4: up under a log, exactly the same as Diane Pinaccio. 242 00:14:12,681 --> 00:14:16,801 Speaker 4: The murder had the similar like m It looked like 243 00:14:16,841 --> 00:14:21,241 Speaker 4: there'd been a degree of torture and potentially rape involved. 244 00:14:21,681 --> 00:14:24,681 Speaker 4: And Malatt had the opportunity. He was working on the 245 00:14:24,801 --> 00:14:29,121 Speaker 4: Jenolan Caves Road for the DMR at the time. He 246 00:14:29,241 --> 00:14:32,441 Speaker 4: was traveling to that area, the same with Diane Pinaccio. 247 00:14:32,681 --> 00:14:36,241 Speaker 4: He had the opportunity, he had the MOO. How was 248 00:14:36,281 --> 00:14:40,681 Speaker 4: he ruled out? Even Clive Small who ran Task Force here, 249 00:14:40,841 --> 00:14:44,281 Speaker 4: who was the superintendent, the most senior police officer in 250 00:14:44,401 --> 00:14:48,841 Speaker 4: charge of the Bolangelo task Force, he says curious things. 251 00:14:48,881 --> 00:14:50,921 Speaker 1: He says, oh, I think he was involved in. 252 00:14:51,121 --> 00:14:56,001 Speaker 4: Definitely Peter Letcher and possibly Diane Panaccio, and maybe Karen 253 00:14:56,121 --> 00:14:59,361 Speaker 4: Roland the abduction and murder of Karen Roland all the 254 00:14:59,401 --> 00:15:02,801 Speaker 4: way back in nineteen seventy one in the act. But 255 00:15:02,841 --> 00:15:06,001 Speaker 4: why wasn't he pursued. There's no reason that he's not pursued. 256 00:15:06,041 --> 00:15:08,721 Speaker 4: He's not. They don't do an investigation, they don't seek 257 00:15:08,801 --> 00:15:12,681 Speaker 4: DNA evidence, interview him length, find out what's going on. 258 00:15:13,161 --> 00:15:17,321 Speaker 4: And then those cases too, search those areas for other 259 00:15:17,481 --> 00:15:21,001 Speaker 4: bodies and see if there's other people buried there. Because 260 00:15:21,121 --> 00:15:24,481 Speaker 4: these serial killers had killing grounds, they feel comfortable in 261 00:15:24,481 --> 00:15:27,281 Speaker 4: an area at a certain time. Malac clearly felt that 262 00:15:27,401 --> 00:15:31,921 Speaker 4: about Blangelo. Alex Malatt, who put the Malats in, actually 263 00:15:31,961 --> 00:15:34,881 Speaker 4: called crime stoppers and said there's some guys, you know, 264 00:15:34,961 --> 00:15:38,681 Speaker 4: taking girls up into the bush in cars, and actually 265 00:15:38,721 --> 00:15:42,281 Speaker 4: made them aware that the Malats were involved and interested 266 00:15:42,321 --> 00:15:44,561 Speaker 4: in this case. In the early days of the task force, 267 00:15:44,961 --> 00:15:48,961 Speaker 4: said you should search Janolan Caves. So why have they 268 00:15:49,041 --> 00:15:54,081 Speaker 4: not searched Taligander. Why have they not searched Jenolan Caves 269 00:15:54,241 --> 00:15:58,681 Speaker 4: or the Malat's property at Wombian Caves thoroughly? Because there 270 00:15:58,721 --> 00:16:02,441 Speaker 4: was only a cursory search done of their five hundred 271 00:16:02,481 --> 00:16:06,801 Speaker 4: hectare property down at Wombian came, which they'd owned since 272 00:16:06,841 --> 00:16:10,441 Speaker 4: the early eighties. And again and again and again you say, 273 00:16:10,721 --> 00:16:13,601 Speaker 4: how come he so quickly ruled out In the case 274 00:16:13,641 --> 00:16:18,201 Speaker 4: of the Anita Cunningham and Robin Hoynville Bartram, there's evidence 275 00:16:18,321 --> 00:16:21,161 Speaker 4: emerging that someone was up in that area who wore 276 00:16:21,161 --> 00:16:24,121 Speaker 4: a big black hat, was picking up women. He went 277 00:16:24,201 --> 00:16:27,561 Speaker 4: by the name Cowboy and used the name Richard and 278 00:16:27,641 --> 00:16:31,201 Speaker 4: was hanging out with other people. And Malatt wasn't in 279 00:16:31,241 --> 00:16:33,801 Speaker 4: New Zealand. He was in New Zealand for about eight 280 00:16:33,921 --> 00:16:37,321 Speaker 4: months from about the end of nineteen seventy one into 281 00:16:37,361 --> 00:16:40,081 Speaker 4: seventy two, which gives him the opportunity to be in 282 00:16:40,121 --> 00:16:40,641 Speaker 4: that area. 283 00:16:40,801 --> 00:16:42,641 Speaker 2: And I believe he also might have used a false 284 00:16:42,681 --> 00:16:45,921 Speaker 2: passport to get back into Australia at that time, which 285 00:16:45,921 --> 00:16:48,521 Speaker 2: gives him the opportunity. And I think also there's a 286 00:16:48,561 --> 00:16:53,641 Speaker 2: retired detective up in Queensland mcgern, who has established that 287 00:16:54,001 --> 00:16:56,281 Speaker 2: he was working on the mines at that time. And 288 00:16:56,321 --> 00:16:58,481 Speaker 2: apparently there are pace looks available if people want to 289 00:16:58,481 --> 00:17:01,321 Speaker 2: go and find them, that could actually put Malatt in 290 00:17:01,441 --> 00:17:02,921 Speaker 2: Queensland at the relevant time. 291 00:17:03,401 --> 00:17:07,321 Speaker 4: Exactly and wherever malap may have been. And this is 292 00:17:07,361 --> 00:17:10,480 Speaker 4: the thing. This is one of the core concerns I 293 00:17:10,561 --> 00:17:13,561 Speaker 4: have As a parliamentarian in New South Wales. I can 294 00:17:13,761 --> 00:17:18,561 Speaker 4: ask for information, the House can vote on a proposition 295 00:17:18,840 --> 00:17:23,400 Speaker 4: that had various an agency provide the information to the House, 296 00:17:23,721 --> 00:17:27,960 Speaker 4: sometimes under privilege, and so I did that. Regarding Ivan 297 00:17:28,041 --> 00:17:31,201 Speaker 4: Malatt's work records, I wanted to see because I've read 298 00:17:31,241 --> 00:17:37,120 Speaker 4: the transcript of Ivan's court case and his work records 299 00:17:37,120 --> 00:17:39,361 Speaker 4: are referred to in granular detail. 300 00:17:39,801 --> 00:17:41,880 Speaker 1: They knew he was working at. 301 00:17:41,761 --> 00:17:45,120 Speaker 4: Hazel Brook in the Blue Mountains on a day from 302 00:17:45,201 --> 00:17:48,441 Speaker 4: a certain time from eight till two, and in particular, 303 00:17:48,521 --> 00:17:52,201 Speaker 4: he was photographed there with his handlebar mustache. It's how 304 00:17:52,201 --> 00:17:55,440 Speaker 4: they established that he had a handlebar mustache at the 305 00:17:55,521 --> 00:17:57,480 Speaker 4: time he was abducting other people. 306 00:17:57,640 --> 00:17:59,281 Speaker 1: But they had his work records. 307 00:17:59,600 --> 00:18:03,400 Speaker 4: I asked for those work records and I got essentially nothing. 308 00:18:03,840 --> 00:18:06,881 Speaker 4: I asked for his prison and records and they are 309 00:18:06,961 --> 00:18:10,721 Speaker 4: confused and incomplete. And I asked for his entire police 310 00:18:10,761 --> 00:18:14,041 Speaker 4: records and was told no. As a member of parliament 311 00:18:14,041 --> 00:18:17,161 Speaker 4: in twenty twenty five, I could not have or they 312 00:18:17,241 --> 00:18:20,241 Speaker 4: said they did not have those things. And yet they 313 00:18:20,400 --> 00:18:23,640 Speaker 4: know where Ivan Malatt was working. In terms of the 314 00:18:23,721 --> 00:18:27,281 Speaker 4: DMR from nineteen seventy four on. And who was he 315 00:18:27,400 --> 00:18:29,961 Speaker 4: working for. He's got to be paying tax or he's 316 00:18:30,001 --> 00:18:32,360 Speaker 4: got to be working for someone or telling someone where 317 00:18:32,400 --> 00:18:34,041 Speaker 4: he's working and wherever. 318 00:18:34,080 --> 00:18:35,801 Speaker 1: We are beginning to establish he. 319 00:18:35,921 --> 00:18:41,241 Speaker 4: Was working Central Queensland, Southeast Queensland, driving his truck down 320 00:18:41,281 --> 00:18:44,640 Speaker 4: to Victoria, to Wa and the rest you know what, 321 00:18:44,681 --> 00:18:49,161 Speaker 4: we find murders, murders, murders, murders. There's an article I've 322 00:18:49,160 --> 00:18:52,400 Speaker 4: got from a former police commissioner in Queensland saying, well, 323 00:18:52,441 --> 00:18:56,401 Speaker 4: there was a concerning number of murders in Southeast Queensland 324 00:18:56,600 --> 00:19:00,241 Speaker 4: in the period around nineteen seventy six, a number of 325 00:19:00,400 --> 00:19:05,640 Speaker 4: incredibly violent and vicious murders of young women backpacking, hiking, 326 00:19:05,801 --> 00:19:09,000 Speaker 4: just walking home from the pub. And the cop says, oh, 327 00:19:09,120 --> 00:19:11,281 Speaker 4: but we know that Ivan Malap was in New Zealand, 328 00:19:11,400 --> 00:19:13,801 Speaker 4: when we know he wasn't, and we know he was 329 00:19:14,080 --> 00:19:18,841 Speaker 4: incredibly mobile. Ivan Mulatt loved cars, He loves trucks, and 330 00:19:18,880 --> 00:19:21,321 Speaker 4: he would get on the road and he could put 331 00:19:21,360 --> 00:19:25,080 Speaker 4: a lot of caves underneath him really quickly. He drove 332 00:19:25,160 --> 00:19:29,000 Speaker 4: trucks to Wa, He drove trucks to Queensland. Where was 333 00:19:29,241 --> 00:19:32,321 Speaker 4: Ivan Malatt who was he with what we was up to? 334 00:19:32,600 --> 00:19:35,080 Speaker 1: And incredibly adam like, it's a mystery. 335 00:19:35,600 --> 00:19:39,440 Speaker 4: How is it that who Ivan Mulat was and what 336 00:19:39,561 --> 00:19:43,240 Speaker 4: he was doing in the nineteen seventies and eighties is 337 00:19:43,281 --> 00:19:43,881 Speaker 4: a mystery? 338 00:19:45,160 --> 00:19:48,920 Speaker 2: You raise all these questions and the parliamentary inquiry is 339 00:19:49,041 --> 00:19:50,601 Speaker 2: the moment for accountability? 340 00:19:51,321 --> 00:19:52,200 Speaker 3: What's it going to look like? 341 00:19:52,241 --> 00:19:53,801 Speaker 2: Are you going to a hall of senior police in there 342 00:19:53,840 --> 00:19:55,600 Speaker 2: and ask these questions, ask for records? 343 00:19:55,640 --> 00:19:57,240 Speaker 3: Are we going to get something solid out of this? 344 00:19:58,041 --> 00:19:58,441 Speaker 1: I hope. 345 00:19:58,481 --> 00:20:02,080 Speaker 4: So I'm guided by the Gay Hate Crimes Inquiry. So 346 00:20:02,120 --> 00:20:05,280 Speaker 4: we had two parliamentary cries into gay hate crimes in 347 00:20:05,321 --> 00:20:08,080 Speaker 4: the seventies and eighties and nineties in New South Wales, 348 00:20:08,160 --> 00:20:10,321 Speaker 4: and I think there's some overlap with this and what 349 00:20:10,441 --> 00:20:14,481 Speaker 4: happened there, But certainly that process is what I'm guide by, 350 00:20:14,681 --> 00:20:17,680 Speaker 4: and that process was a parliamentary inquiry that led to 351 00:20:17,721 --> 00:20:20,400 Speaker 4: a Special Commission of Inquiry that then led to a 352 00:20:20,481 --> 00:20:23,841 Speaker 4: prosecution in a particular case. What I want to do 353 00:20:24,001 --> 00:20:26,640 Speaker 4: is go to the community and say to them, tell 354 00:20:26,721 --> 00:20:29,881 Speaker 4: us what you know. The criticism that's made of me is, oh, 355 00:20:29,921 --> 00:20:32,321 Speaker 4: you're producing on the police's turf. 356 00:20:32,360 --> 00:20:34,880 Speaker 5: You're making it difficult for them to do the work 357 00:20:34,921 --> 00:20:38,080 Speaker 5: that they're doing when I know and the families know 358 00:20:38,521 --> 00:20:42,161 Speaker 5: that there's just a huge number scores of these unsold 359 00:20:42,160 --> 00:20:45,360 Speaker 5: homicide cases that are just sitting there, going nowhere, that 360 00:20:45,481 --> 00:20:46,600 Speaker 5: nothing's being done. 361 00:20:46,761 --> 00:20:49,241 Speaker 4: There might be a review, but they're certainly not gathering 362 00:20:49,360 --> 00:20:53,321 Speaker 4: new evidence. And my key point is it's with the 363 00:20:53,400 --> 00:20:58,080 Speaker 4: community working with the police that we solve these crimes. 364 00:20:58,561 --> 00:21:01,281 Speaker 4: If you look at how Ivan Malap was caught, it's 365 00:21:01,321 --> 00:21:04,521 Speaker 4: because of the work and the observation and the witnesses 366 00:21:04,801 --> 00:21:09,441 Speaker 4: that came forward from the community. People saw something, they 367 00:21:09,561 --> 00:21:14,521 Speaker 4: said something. Paul Onions, he reports a crime, he comes forward, 368 00:21:14,761 --> 00:21:18,160 Speaker 4: he's the witness. It's the police working with the community 369 00:21:18,201 --> 00:21:20,960 Speaker 4: to get this done. So I'm hoping that the inquiry 370 00:21:21,281 --> 00:21:25,080 Speaker 4: will give people who know something, who've been scared to 371 00:21:25,120 --> 00:21:28,281 Speaker 4: say something, the opportunity to say make a submission to 372 00:21:28,321 --> 00:21:32,521 Speaker 4: the inquiry that can be confidential, that can be anonymous, 373 00:21:32,880 --> 00:21:36,001 Speaker 4: that can come forward and say I saw this. I'm 374 00:21:36,041 --> 00:21:38,840 Speaker 4: already getting scores of them as we speak. The inbox 375 00:21:39,160 --> 00:21:41,840 Speaker 4: that's just been pinging away is being hit up with 376 00:21:41,921 --> 00:21:45,001 Speaker 4: people saying I saw this, then I saw this guy 377 00:21:45,120 --> 00:21:48,321 Speaker 4: standing here on this date at this time, this guy 378 00:21:48,441 --> 00:21:51,921 Speaker 4: tried to abduct me. All of this information comes in 379 00:21:52,241 --> 00:21:55,561 Speaker 4: and then we assess it and we say, right, we 380 00:21:55,600 --> 00:21:58,961 Speaker 4: want to hear from the police, these police on this matter. 381 00:21:59,160 --> 00:22:01,760 Speaker 4: We want to know what happened in these cases. We 382 00:22:01,801 --> 00:22:04,041 Speaker 4: want to talk to the coroners, we want to talk 383 00:22:04,080 --> 00:22:08,720 Speaker 4: to the various agencies, and incredibly importantly, we want to 384 00:22:08,801 --> 00:22:12,400 Speaker 4: hear from the families. So where the families get to 385 00:22:12,441 --> 00:22:16,680 Speaker 4: come in and under oath, under privilege, free to say 386 00:22:16,761 --> 00:22:20,241 Speaker 4: what they want without being prosecuted or. 387 00:22:20,201 --> 00:22:21,680 Speaker 1: Being done for defamation. 388 00:22:22,160 --> 00:22:26,321 Speaker 4: They can say what happened to them, what their experience 389 00:22:26,360 --> 00:22:30,240 Speaker 4: of the investigation was. I'm guided by the Kotski family, 390 00:22:30,321 --> 00:22:33,041 Speaker 4: who one of the key cases we're looking into, and 391 00:22:33,120 --> 00:22:35,561 Speaker 4: even though we've mentioned twenty, we're going to look at 392 00:22:35,600 --> 00:22:38,440 Speaker 4: all the cold cases in that period because it's any 393 00:22:38,600 --> 00:22:41,081 Speaker 4: other related matter is one of the terms of reference. 394 00:22:41,360 --> 00:22:43,561 Speaker 4: There's some key ones that are well known, but the 395 00:22:43,640 --> 00:22:47,441 Speaker 4: Kotski family, the mother of Gordana Kotski, said that when 396 00:22:47,481 --> 00:22:51,961 Speaker 4: she reported her daughter missing, they reported her missing within 397 00:22:52,400 --> 00:22:56,201 Speaker 4: like five minutes of her being abducted. They literally heard 398 00:22:56,241 --> 00:23:00,120 Speaker 4: her being abducted from the end of their driveway. They 399 00:23:00,281 --> 00:23:03,920 Speaker 4: said they felt like they were reporting a missing cat, 400 00:23:04,281 --> 00:23:07,321 Speaker 4: and they had people that had seen the car, people 401 00:23:07,360 --> 00:23:08,481 Speaker 4: that could seen the. 402 00:23:08,441 --> 00:23:11,360 Speaker 1: Person abducting it. All hands to the pump. 403 00:23:11,400 --> 00:23:15,440 Speaker 4: This girl's been abducted now and yet nothing was done. 404 00:23:15,600 --> 00:23:18,561 Speaker 4: What fomal drive groups are out there looking for? And 405 00:23:18,600 --> 00:23:22,801 Speaker 4: so that's what motivates me. How appalling that is the situation. 406 00:23:23,721 --> 00:23:27,160 Speaker 2: Yes, Jordana Cottesse's case I think is a very important 407 00:23:27,201 --> 00:23:30,200 Speaker 2: one because as you say, there were witnesses who saw 408 00:23:30,681 --> 00:23:34,920 Speaker 2: her being forced into a car at Charlestown shopping Center. Yeah, 409 00:23:34,961 --> 00:23:37,000 Speaker 2: and as you say, hopefully there are other witnesses who 410 00:23:37,041 --> 00:23:38,481 Speaker 2: might say, yes, I saw it as well. I saw 411 00:23:38,521 --> 00:23:41,241 Speaker 2: it down the track a bit and there's more proactivity. 412 00:23:41,400 --> 00:23:43,721 Speaker 2: The problem you've gotten that the families and critics of 413 00:23:43,761 --> 00:23:47,120 Speaker 2: yourself I's police say that they have been stonewalling. The 414 00:23:47,160 --> 00:23:50,521 Speaker 2: gay hate inquiry was a good example. It took Scott Johnson, 415 00:23:50,921 --> 00:23:54,521 Speaker 2: his brother, to spend a lot of money on getting 416 00:23:54,521 --> 00:23:57,481 Speaker 2: the police to investigate his case properly. You've got a 417 00:23:57,481 --> 00:24:01,721 Speaker 2: situation where the coroner complains the police don't follow their 418 00:24:01,721 --> 00:24:05,600 Speaker 2: directives from the coroner. What gives you confidence that the 419 00:24:05,681 --> 00:24:09,880 Speaker 2: Parliament can do anymore than all these combined efforts so far. 420 00:24:11,600 --> 00:24:14,561 Speaker 4: Hope which is blind hope and optimism. I suppose, Adam, 421 00:24:14,600 --> 00:24:17,080 Speaker 4: I like, I don't know. I don't know if it 422 00:24:17,120 --> 00:24:19,840 Speaker 4: could end up being a massive waste of time, but 423 00:24:19,921 --> 00:24:22,721 Speaker 4: I don't think so. I don't think so, because already 424 00:24:22,801 --> 00:24:25,640 Speaker 4: we're having people come forward, family members come forward and 425 00:24:25,640 --> 00:24:29,920 Speaker 4: say we appreciate the opportunity to say what happened, for 426 00:24:29,961 --> 00:24:32,001 Speaker 4: it to be recorded, for there just to be a 427 00:24:32,080 --> 00:24:35,920 Speaker 4: truth telling, and that's important to me. And so straight 428 00:24:35,961 --> 00:24:38,201 Speaker 4: away like I worry that it could be a waste 429 00:24:38,241 --> 00:24:41,281 Speaker 4: of time, But within days I've got family members ringing 430 00:24:41,321 --> 00:24:43,761 Speaker 4: up and say, at least now I get the opportunity 431 00:24:44,001 --> 00:24:47,640 Speaker 4: to put on the record for all time, recorded by handsard, 432 00:24:48,080 --> 00:24:51,801 Speaker 4: what happened to my sister on this day, what the 433 00:24:51,840 --> 00:24:53,041 Speaker 4: police didn't do. 434 00:24:53,721 --> 00:24:56,281 Speaker 1: Here's some other information I know. 435 00:24:56,961 --> 00:25:00,480 Speaker 4: And for us to then start to put the pieces together, 436 00:25:00,840 --> 00:25:03,880 Speaker 4: and what you quickly find is that there was a 437 00:25:03,921 --> 00:25:07,041 Speaker 4: systemic issue in New South Wales just with the gay 438 00:25:07,080 --> 00:25:10,721 Speaker 4: hate crimes. There was a willful indifference and almost definitely 439 00:25:10,721 --> 00:25:11,521 Speaker 4: a victim blame. 440 00:25:11,880 --> 00:25:13,080 Speaker 1: Oh this is what you get. 441 00:25:13,160 --> 00:25:14,960 Speaker 4: If you're a gay guy on a beat, you can 442 00:25:15,001 --> 00:25:17,400 Speaker 4: be bashed to death by a gang who want to 443 00:25:17,400 --> 00:25:20,761 Speaker 4: go out there and bash gay people, or in a 444 00:25:20,761 --> 00:25:23,321 Speaker 4: lot of these cases, young men and women who were 445 00:25:23,360 --> 00:25:28,961 Speaker 4: free spirits. They might have been from lower socio economic hippies, punks, 446 00:25:29,241 --> 00:25:32,241 Speaker 4: they might have been, you know, drug users, they were 447 00:25:32,321 --> 00:25:37,041 Speaker 4: hitch hiking, they were backpackers. They were people who were vulnerable, 448 00:25:37,281 --> 00:25:40,321 Speaker 4: probably at the margins of society, a lot of them 449 00:25:40,481 --> 00:25:43,960 Speaker 4: regional or like out of suburban these types of things, 450 00:25:44,120 --> 00:25:48,440 Speaker 4: or operating in around the cross vulnerable people who disappear 451 00:25:48,521 --> 00:25:50,961 Speaker 4: and the cops go, well, that's just what you get. 452 00:25:51,281 --> 00:25:52,400 Speaker 1: And I've actually got. 453 00:25:52,321 --> 00:25:56,681 Speaker 4: An article where the police say they warn young women, well, 454 00:25:56,721 --> 00:25:59,840 Speaker 4: this is what you get if you walk home. 455 00:25:59,640 --> 00:26:00,801 Speaker 1: At night on your own. 456 00:26:01,441 --> 00:26:04,720 Speaker 4: And so like today would stagger you to think that 457 00:26:05,120 --> 00:26:07,840 Speaker 4: police officer could go out there and say that, but 458 00:26:07,921 --> 00:26:10,680 Speaker 4: that was the attitude in the late nineteen seventies. If 459 00:26:10,681 --> 00:26:13,480 Speaker 4: you walk out on your own late at night, you 460 00:26:13,521 --> 00:26:16,400 Speaker 4: can expect to be abducted and raped and stabbed to death. 461 00:26:18,041 --> 00:26:21,360 Speaker 2: And the same could be said the attitude towards women 462 00:26:21,400 --> 00:26:24,361 Speaker 2: who were hitchhiking in this period. That was an accepted 463 00:26:24,400 --> 00:26:27,681 Speaker 2: form of transport back in the day, and we had 464 00:26:27,681 --> 00:26:29,481 Speaker 2: this attitude of police, not just in New south Fast 465 00:26:29,481 --> 00:26:35,001 Speaker 2: with elsewhere that women when missing were flighty females who've 466 00:26:35,001 --> 00:26:37,321 Speaker 2: got off with a boyfriend or trying to conceal some 467 00:26:37,481 --> 00:26:41,281 Speaker 2: affair or something, so their disappearance became almost a moral 468 00:26:41,441 --> 00:26:45,360 Speaker 2: failing rather than a crime, and it took days or 469 00:26:45,441 --> 00:26:48,561 Speaker 2: weeks for police to actually take this seriously. I think 470 00:26:48,600 --> 00:26:51,360 Speaker 2: the same as is of the gay hate murders. Then 471 00:26:51,441 --> 00:26:53,600 Speaker 2: we looked at a number of these for our show 472 00:26:53,600 --> 00:26:55,961 Speaker 2: The Hunters with Steve Van Apron that went to aur 473 00:26:56,001 --> 00:26:56,600 Speaker 2: A Channel seven. 474 00:26:56,681 --> 00:26:58,840 Speaker 6: You can find them on the website still seven plus. 475 00:26:59,001 --> 00:27:02,640 Speaker 6: But there's been an absence of dash. There's been a 476 00:27:02,681 --> 00:27:05,001 Speaker 6: failure to search and a failure to find. I mean, 477 00:27:05,321 --> 00:27:07,240 Speaker 6: with the gay hate murther as you've got, there was 478 00:27:07,241 --> 00:27:07,961 Speaker 6: a gangs of. 479 00:27:07,921 --> 00:27:12,801 Speaker 2: Teenage boys who were either participating or witnessing these events, 480 00:27:13,080 --> 00:27:16,360 Speaker 2: gay men being pushed off cliffs or bashed and so forth, 481 00:27:16,681 --> 00:27:19,761 Speaker 2: and yet they haven't come forward and the police don't 482 00:27:19,840 --> 00:27:21,961 Speaker 2: seem to be particularly interested in chasing them. 483 00:27:21,961 --> 00:27:23,601 Speaker 3: We haven't seen any further arrests. 484 00:27:23,721 --> 00:27:26,321 Speaker 2: In some cases they know exactly who the perpetrator was, 485 00:27:26,880 --> 00:27:28,640 Speaker 2: he's appeared exactly. 486 00:27:28,721 --> 00:27:32,561 Speaker 4: And in some of these cases, girls disappeared and they 487 00:27:32,640 --> 00:27:34,600 Speaker 4: might have been hitch hiking or hanging out at a 488 00:27:34,600 --> 00:27:37,920 Speaker 4: pinball arcade or going to a caravan park or whatever 489 00:27:37,961 --> 00:27:41,080 Speaker 4: they were doing walking home with their friends from blue 490 00:27:41,160 --> 00:27:43,481 Speaker 4: Light disco or whatever it was, and. 491 00:27:43,400 --> 00:27:45,920 Speaker 1: The police haven't interviewed anyone ever. 492 00:27:46,561 --> 00:27:48,961 Speaker 4: Like one of the first cases I started looking at 493 00:27:49,041 --> 00:27:51,441 Speaker 4: was a disappearance in my hometown in the north coast 494 00:27:51,880 --> 00:27:54,960 Speaker 4: of Susan Kyley. Now she put her daughter on the 495 00:27:55,001 --> 00:27:58,881 Speaker 4: bus off to school, then later on hitchhiked into town, 496 00:27:59,001 --> 00:28:01,521 Speaker 4: got some money, we saw some friends, got some money 497 00:28:01,561 --> 00:28:04,600 Speaker 4: out of the atm, and then was never seen again. 498 00:28:04,600 --> 00:28:07,880 Speaker 4: Her daughter gets home from school, Mum's not there. She 499 00:28:08,041 --> 00:28:10,241 Speaker 4: stays up all night, then she ends up walking over 500 00:28:10,281 --> 00:28:13,881 Speaker 4: to a friend's place and learning people Susan Kylie never 501 00:28:13,921 --> 00:28:18,041 Speaker 4: seen again. At the coronial inquest, which happens decades later, 502 00:28:18,201 --> 00:28:22,441 Speaker 4: like twenty years later, there's no evidence the police can 503 00:28:22,481 --> 00:28:26,281 Speaker 4: provide of them having done anything at all at the time, 504 00:28:26,600 --> 00:28:30,160 Speaker 4: and it's not an isolated event. And in some cases 505 00:28:30,321 --> 00:28:33,081 Speaker 4: there were witnesses who were saying, we saw a car 506 00:28:33,201 --> 00:28:35,321 Speaker 4: that looked like this, we saw a man that looked 507 00:28:35,360 --> 00:28:38,161 Speaker 4: like this. There was a guy who'd been traveling up 508 00:28:38,241 --> 00:28:40,801 Speaker 4: and down looking like this. In the disappearance of Ka 509 00:28:40,961 --> 00:28:45,200 Speaker 4: Doherty and Tony Kavana down in Wollongong. There were people 510 00:28:45,281 --> 00:28:48,361 Speaker 4: at the time who were saying there was a guy 511 00:28:48,521 --> 00:28:51,921 Speaker 4: working down the road on the roads who was abducting people. 512 00:28:52,281 --> 00:28:55,401 Speaker 4: Later on those people have come forward and said we 513 00:28:55,521 --> 00:28:58,440 Speaker 4: now think that guy looked like Ivan Malatt, and Ivan 514 00:28:58,481 --> 00:29:01,441 Speaker 4: Malatt had been working in that area, and yet did 515 00:29:01,441 --> 00:29:02,480 Speaker 4: the police pursue it. 516 00:29:03,081 --> 00:29:05,361 Speaker 1: No, I'll tee you were a key era that. 517 00:29:05,601 --> 00:29:08,241 Speaker 4: I hope we can get some movement from the police, 518 00:29:08,401 --> 00:29:10,001 Speaker 4: and that is in DNA. 519 00:29:10,401 --> 00:29:13,481 Speaker 1: Properly looking for all. 520 00:29:13,281 --> 00:29:17,041 Speaker 4: Of the DNA in these cases. And in particular I'm 521 00:29:17,041 --> 00:29:20,721 Speaker 4: guided by the fact that we know with Ivan Malatt, 522 00:29:20,921 --> 00:29:23,881 Speaker 4: he kept a lot of really good cars, and he 523 00:29:23,961 --> 00:29:26,921 Speaker 4: kept them immaculate and he handed them on in good shape. 524 00:29:26,961 --> 00:29:31,761 Speaker 4: And they're cars that may still be around VJ Valiant chargers, 525 00:29:32,041 --> 00:29:37,921 Speaker 4: Monaros Tarana's four wheel drives, and we should be going back, 526 00:29:38,001 --> 00:29:41,561 Speaker 4: and why we haven't go back and do a thorough 527 00:29:41,641 --> 00:29:46,201 Speaker 4: DNA analysis of all those cars, like I'm not even 528 00:29:46,241 --> 00:29:48,921 Speaker 4: sure I've asked the police whether or not they did 529 00:29:48,961 --> 00:29:52,361 Speaker 4: a DNA analysis of the car that he adducted Paul 530 00:29:52,441 --> 00:29:55,801 Speaker 4: Onions in Nis and patrol and they say they won't 531 00:29:55,801 --> 00:29:58,361 Speaker 4: tell me, and that's a car that they found a 532 00:29:58,401 --> 00:30:01,761 Speaker 4: bullet hole in where they think he'd shot Gabor Neugebar 533 00:30:02,321 --> 00:30:04,961 Speaker 4: in the car. Yet we don't know about the d 534 00:30:05,721 --> 00:30:09,161 Speaker 4: So in terms of pursuit, I think that as you say, 535 00:30:09,401 --> 00:30:14,081 Speaker 4: we should be pursuing these things, there's new technologies DNA 536 00:30:14,401 --> 00:30:17,321 Speaker 4: AI and I hope that the end of this we 537 00:30:17,401 --> 00:30:22,601 Speaker 4: can properly map where all these people disappeared, when they disappeared, 538 00:30:22,921 --> 00:30:26,641 Speaker 4: how they disappeared, and where the bloody hell was Ivan 539 00:30:26,761 --> 00:30:29,881 Speaker 4: Malatt and potentially some of these mates or other. 540 00:30:29,681 --> 00:30:32,760 Speaker 1: People that emerges people of interest at that time. 541 00:30:33,561 --> 00:30:36,561 Speaker 2: I think it's also incumbent upon members of the community 542 00:30:36,561 --> 00:30:39,641 Speaker 2: to come put their DNA on databases because you've got 543 00:30:39,681 --> 00:30:42,721 Speaker 2: several hundred sets of unidentified human remains in New South 544 00:30:42,761 --> 00:30:45,921 Speaker 2: Wales that could indeed be belonging to some of the 545 00:30:45,921 --> 00:30:50,720 Speaker 2: individuals that we are now presuming as lost. Now, the 546 00:30:50,801 --> 00:30:53,041 Speaker 2: case that you're really putting a lot of effort into 547 00:30:53,201 --> 00:30:56,481 Speaker 2: separate to this an inquiry is Sheryl Grimmer from nineteen seventy. 548 00:30:57,241 --> 00:31:00,481 Speaker 2: We know that Mercury, we can't name him for legal reasons, 549 00:31:01,001 --> 00:31:03,801 Speaker 2: is the red Hot suspect. He confessed in nineteen seventy one. 550 00:31:04,241 --> 00:31:09,761 Speaker 2: Detectives and twenty sixteen twenty seventeen corroborated much of that confession. 551 00:31:10,161 --> 00:31:11,681 Speaker 3: He's red hot for it. 552 00:31:12,001 --> 00:31:15,561 Speaker 2: Yet we can't go forward because the confession was not 553 00:31:15,641 --> 00:31:18,720 Speaker 2: witnessed by an adult. Retrospective legislation meant that it was 554 00:31:18,881 --> 00:31:22,761 Speaker 2: inadmissible in his court proceeding. You're now going to the 555 00:31:22,801 --> 00:31:27,681 Speaker 2: extent of threatening to use parliamentary privilege to name Mercury 556 00:31:27,841 --> 00:31:28,681 Speaker 2: in the parliament? 557 00:31:28,801 --> 00:31:29,881 Speaker 3: Are you going to go ahead with it? 558 00:31:30,641 --> 00:31:31,841 Speaker 1: That depends on the family. 559 00:31:32,041 --> 00:31:34,601 Speaker 4: I've given that assurance to the family that if they 560 00:31:34,721 --> 00:31:36,321 Speaker 4: asked me to, I will do it. 561 00:31:36,641 --> 00:31:39,681 Speaker 1: Parliamentary privilege is there to protect. 562 00:31:39,401 --> 00:31:43,481 Speaker 4: The public interest and in this case potentially protect public 563 00:31:43,561 --> 00:31:47,561 Speaker 4: safety and make sure that justice is done. So I've 564 00:31:47,601 --> 00:31:51,121 Speaker 4: sent to the family, after availing myself of the facts 565 00:31:51,201 --> 00:31:57,921 Speaker 4: regarding Sheryl's disappearance, abduction and murder, the confession made by Mercury, 566 00:31:58,161 --> 00:32:01,961 Speaker 4: the police reports of the time of the confession, of 567 00:32:02,001 --> 00:32:06,760 Speaker 4: the walk through this fellow's behavior after that, with making 568 00:32:07,121 --> 00:32:12,201 Speaker 4: essentially more confessions, and any reasonable person would read that 569 00:32:12,321 --> 00:32:17,161 Speaker 4: confession and say that confession must have been made by 570 00:32:17,241 --> 00:32:21,761 Speaker 4: someone who was there at the site, at the exact 571 00:32:21,921 --> 00:32:25,801 Speaker 4: site and at the exact time that Eryl disappeared. You 572 00:32:25,881 --> 00:32:28,960 Speaker 4: could not know the things that are in this comprehensive 573 00:32:29,041 --> 00:32:33,200 Speaker 4: confession if you were not there the granular detail, and 574 00:32:33,281 --> 00:32:35,841 Speaker 4: it was good enough for the police to seek to 575 00:32:36,121 --> 00:32:38,761 Speaker 4: charge him, to extradite him, and to put him on 576 00:32:38,841 --> 00:32:43,520 Speaker 4: remand in twenty sixteen, seventeen and through to twenty nineteen 577 00:32:43,561 --> 00:32:45,641 Speaker 4: when it came before the courts, and then it was 578 00:32:45,801 --> 00:32:48,881 Speaker 4: the confession which was the key piece of evidence, and 579 00:32:48,921 --> 00:32:51,681 Speaker 4: of course it would be apart from a body and 580 00:32:51,721 --> 00:32:55,641 Speaker 4: some other material evidence that didn't exist was ruled inadmissible 581 00:32:55,681 --> 00:33:00,641 Speaker 4: on a legal technicality, a retrospective application of law, which 582 00:33:01,201 --> 00:33:04,401 Speaker 4: wasn't really about whether or not the confession was legitimate 583 00:33:04,561 --> 00:33:07,721 Speaker 4: or holes in the confession. It was really about whether 584 00:33:07,841 --> 00:33:10,480 Speaker 4: or not you were allowed to make a confession in 585 00:33:10,521 --> 00:33:14,401 Speaker 4: a particular way at that time, which was the confession 586 00:33:14,481 --> 00:33:16,921 Speaker 4: was made. And we're not even sure this is true 587 00:33:17,361 --> 00:33:19,041 Speaker 4: without a guardian or a parent. 588 00:33:19,121 --> 00:33:21,361 Speaker 1: There there's a possibility that there was one there. 589 00:33:21,521 --> 00:33:25,121 Speaker 4: It's just not reported in the confession, and so that 590 00:33:25,681 --> 00:33:29,521 Speaker 4: is just not acceptable. And it's not only the fact 591 00:33:29,561 --> 00:33:33,480 Speaker 4: that Cheryl's potential murderer has walked three. They've walked three 592 00:33:33,521 --> 00:33:36,161 Speaker 4: into the community, and you're talking about someone who was 593 00:33:36,721 --> 00:33:40,561 Speaker 4: potentially abducting a three year old to rape and then murder. 594 00:33:41,321 --> 00:33:44,440 Speaker 4: If someone's capable of that at a young age, what 595 00:33:44,601 --> 00:33:46,841 Speaker 4: else have they been doing? What else could they do? 596 00:33:47,281 --> 00:33:50,200 Speaker 4: And there's a public safety public risk issue for me 597 00:33:50,361 --> 00:33:52,041 Speaker 4: to consider as well. 598 00:33:52,121 --> 00:33:54,921 Speaker 2: The point you raise about that confession is very well made. 599 00:33:55,441 --> 00:33:58,121 Speaker 2: And when I looked at this and you hear that 600 00:33:58,601 --> 00:34:02,921 Speaker 2: Mercury speaks to one of the managers in the boys home, 601 00:34:03,001 --> 00:34:06,561 Speaker 2: mister Leckey, who then invites the police to come. It's 602 00:34:06,641 --> 00:34:10,081 Speaker 2: just not recorded whether mister Lecky remained there. But this 603 00:34:10,201 --> 00:34:13,841 Speaker 2: is a public institution. Surely there are records. Surely someone 604 00:34:14,001 --> 00:34:16,681 Speaker 2: there are also other boys there at the time. I 605 00:34:16,761 --> 00:34:18,480 Speaker 2: just think there was a failure to go a little 606 00:34:18,521 --> 00:34:21,761 Speaker 2: bit further in the investigation, and there were many opportunities 607 00:34:21,801 --> 00:34:24,481 Speaker 2: to do so, and there could still be today. So 608 00:34:24,481 --> 00:34:27,841 Speaker 2: I hope your inquiry could focus in on what possible 609 00:34:27,961 --> 00:34:30,601 Speaker 2: other records, because I don't think you're going to move 610 00:34:30,641 --> 00:34:31,641 Speaker 2: that retrospective law. 611 00:34:31,801 --> 00:34:34,041 Speaker 3: It's going to remain there. It's there for good reason. 612 00:34:34,521 --> 00:34:37,521 Speaker 3: These serious and doubtable offenses rely. 613 00:34:37,441 --> 00:34:41,121 Speaker 2: Upon when you are charged, not when a confession may 614 00:34:41,161 --> 00:34:43,881 Speaker 2: have taken place of other evidence. So without that extra evidence, 615 00:34:43,881 --> 00:34:45,841 Speaker 2: it's going to be very difficult, which leaves you in 616 00:34:45,881 --> 00:34:49,521 Speaker 2: the position of having to name Mercury in parliament. It's 617 00:34:49,561 --> 00:34:51,440 Speaker 2: a high risk strategy. Some would say that it might 618 00:34:51,481 --> 00:34:53,721 Speaker 2: jeopardize his chance of a fair trial. How do you 619 00:34:53,721 --> 00:34:55,321 Speaker 2: respond to that, Well. 620 00:34:55,201 --> 00:34:57,561 Speaker 4: There's a couple of things. First, I'm going to put 621 00:34:57,601 --> 00:35:00,321 Speaker 4: on the record, and why he wasn't charged at the 622 00:35:00,441 --> 00:35:01,681 Speaker 4: time is beyond belief. 623 00:35:01,681 --> 00:35:02,521 Speaker 1: It beggars belief. 624 00:35:02,801 --> 00:35:06,841 Speaker 4: I just don't understand after making that conferee doing the walkthrough, Okay, 625 00:35:06,841 --> 00:35:09,041 Speaker 4: they didn't find the body at the time, which was 626 00:35:09,081 --> 00:35:12,801 Speaker 4: a year or so after the induction, he wasn't charged, 627 00:35:13,121 --> 00:35:15,401 Speaker 4: And for the file note from the police to just 628 00:35:15,441 --> 00:35:18,401 Speaker 4: say it is not desirable, that's what it says, not 629 00:35:18,521 --> 00:35:22,520 Speaker 4: desirable at this time to lay charges. I don't understand that. 630 00:35:22,961 --> 00:35:26,601 Speaker 4: The fact that then the courts considering the law as. 631 00:35:26,441 --> 00:35:29,041 Speaker 1: It is now rather than as it was there. 632 00:35:29,321 --> 00:35:31,521 Speaker 4: It's a fair point, that's how the law works, but 633 00:35:31,601 --> 00:35:34,521 Speaker 4: that doesn't mean that we have to accept that as 634 00:35:34,601 --> 00:35:35,841 Speaker 4: the end of the story. 635 00:35:36,201 --> 00:35:37,801 Speaker 1: And so people who might. 636 00:35:37,681 --> 00:35:41,281 Speaker 4: Say, well, you're burning the opportunity for a future conviction 637 00:35:41,521 --> 00:35:42,961 Speaker 4: based on this confession. 638 00:35:43,281 --> 00:35:44,121 Speaker 1: That's run its. 639 00:35:43,921 --> 00:35:46,881 Speaker 4: Course the rope. We're at a dead end. There will 640 00:35:46,921 --> 00:35:50,761 Speaker 4: be no more charges laid on the basis of that confession. 641 00:35:50,801 --> 00:35:53,361 Speaker 4: The police have said that it's inadmissible, so we have 642 00:35:53,441 --> 00:35:56,561 Speaker 4: no other evidence. We have no other evidence to rely on. 643 00:35:56,921 --> 00:36:01,241 Speaker 4: This person Mercury is likely to remain free in the community, 644 00:36:01,321 --> 00:36:05,001 Speaker 4: live out their life free from ever facing the truth, 645 00:36:05,041 --> 00:36:08,241 Speaker 4: the true consequences of what they have done. 646 00:36:08,121 --> 00:36:09,761 Speaker 1: And that's just not acceptable. 647 00:36:09,921 --> 00:36:12,401 Speaker 4: So I say, look, I'm not going into this without 648 00:36:12,921 --> 00:36:16,201 Speaker 4: a lot of consideration, without the support of the family. 649 00:36:16,441 --> 00:36:18,801 Speaker 1: I've had advice from the clerks of the Parliament. 650 00:36:19,241 --> 00:36:21,761 Speaker 4: I'm not sure if this has ever been done before 651 00:36:21,881 --> 00:36:25,721 Speaker 4: that someone names a murderer. But politicians get up and 652 00:36:25,801 --> 00:36:29,081 Speaker 4: say all kinds of things under parliamentary privilege. Most of 653 00:36:29,121 --> 00:36:33,521 Speaker 4: them just absolute garbage about each other. And they certainly 654 00:36:33,681 --> 00:36:37,041 Speaker 4: have alleged crimes before that go on to be before 655 00:36:37,081 --> 00:36:39,561 Speaker 4: the courts, or have been before the courts, or are 656 00:36:39,561 --> 00:36:42,601 Speaker 4: investigated at center and so forth. But this is a 657 00:36:42,881 --> 00:36:46,601 Speaker 4: unique case and it's about delivering justice for Cheryl and 658 00:36:46,681 --> 00:36:50,881 Speaker 4: her family who have been tormented by this for fifty 659 00:36:51,161 --> 00:36:55,481 Speaker 4: more years, and I just think it's a situation that 660 00:36:55,561 --> 00:36:59,041 Speaker 4: cannot be allowed to stand and people may judge me 661 00:36:59,081 --> 00:37:01,361 Speaker 4: on it. People in the legal profession would say, oh, well, 662 00:37:01,881 --> 00:37:04,361 Speaker 4: the separation of powers for a reason. But we have 663 00:37:04,481 --> 00:37:08,361 Speaker 4: parliament privilege for a reason, and that privilege is so 664 00:37:08,521 --> 00:37:11,881 Speaker 4: you can stand up and say something is not right. 665 00:37:11,961 --> 00:37:15,401 Speaker 4: This didn't work and for whatever reason, we went through 666 00:37:15,401 --> 00:37:20,041 Speaker 4: the whole process and the end result was a disaster. 667 00:37:20,441 --> 00:37:21,801 Speaker 1: It's got to be put on the record. 668 00:37:22,561 --> 00:37:25,721 Speaker 2: Okay, how can people get in touch with you and 669 00:37:25,801 --> 00:37:28,361 Speaker 2: make submissions and provide other evidence. 670 00:37:29,241 --> 00:37:31,241 Speaker 4: Well, I've got an email address at the moment, it's 671 00:37:31,321 --> 00:37:35,201 Speaker 4: Jeremy dot Buckingham at Parliament do sw dot gov dot au. 672 00:37:35,321 --> 00:37:36,961 Speaker 1: They can fire in if you. 673 00:37:36,961 --> 00:37:41,481 Speaker 4: Have information about unsolved homicides matters caught by the terms 674 00:37:41,481 --> 00:37:45,201 Speaker 4: of reference, they can do that. Now I'm collating all 675 00:37:45,241 --> 00:37:46,041 Speaker 4: of this information. 676 00:37:46,121 --> 00:37:46,361 Speaker 1: I'm in. 677 00:37:46,441 --> 00:37:50,201 Speaker 4: My office is absolutely stacked floor to ceiling with it. 678 00:37:50,201 --> 00:37:53,201 Speaker 4: It's coming in thick and fast. But there will be 679 00:37:53,441 --> 00:37:58,201 Speaker 4: a more formal process once the inquiry is fully up 680 00:37:58,201 --> 00:38:01,241 Speaker 4: and running, and that is we will seek submissions from 681 00:38:01,281 --> 00:38:03,361 Speaker 4: the community. We'll go out to the community and say 682 00:38:03,681 --> 00:38:07,761 Speaker 4: make a submission. We will then call witnesses that we 683 00:38:07,801 --> 00:38:10,681 Speaker 4: want that to merge from the submissions that will be 684 00:38:10,761 --> 00:38:14,241 Speaker 4: heard and either an open hearing or in what's called 685 00:38:14,281 --> 00:38:17,440 Speaker 4: an in camera hearing a confidential hearing. But importantly those 686 00:38:17,521 --> 00:38:21,641 Speaker 4: hearings will be in the Southern Highlands, in Parliament House, 687 00:38:21,681 --> 00:38:25,681 Speaker 4: in Sydney, in Newcastle, in Grafton, in Lizmre in the 688 00:38:25,721 --> 00:38:29,801 Speaker 4: areas where the community can come along and under parliamentary 689 00:38:29,881 --> 00:38:33,841 Speaker 4: privilege there's sworn they cannot be prosecuted, they cannot be 690 00:38:33,881 --> 00:38:37,041 Speaker 4: pursued in terms of civil action and a defamation for 691 00:38:37,121 --> 00:38:39,361 Speaker 4: saying what they know, and they can put on the 692 00:38:39,361 --> 00:38:43,001 Speaker 4: record what they know. And at the moment, look, it's 693 00:38:43,561 --> 00:38:46,161 Speaker 4: we get a few crazies and some of the information 694 00:38:46,801 --> 00:38:49,241 Speaker 4: is not useful, there's no doubt about that, but a 695 00:38:49,241 --> 00:38:51,321 Speaker 4: lot of it is. A lot of it really is, 696 00:38:51,361 --> 00:38:55,201 Speaker 4: and I think the majority is. And like with all 697 00:38:55,241 --> 00:38:58,401 Speaker 4: of these investigations, you start off with a bit of 698 00:38:58,401 --> 00:39:01,721 Speaker 4: an outline, a case theory, and you start filling it in, 699 00:39:02,041 --> 00:39:04,921 Speaker 4: and that is filling in quickly. And that story is 700 00:39:05,321 --> 00:39:11,761 Speaker 4: that for whatever reason, for whatever reason, a horrendous group 701 00:39:11,841 --> 00:39:16,361 Speaker 4: of serial killers were preying on this state and the 702 00:39:16,401 --> 00:39:21,121 Speaker 4: East Coast, particularly of Australia for decades with impunity, and 703 00:39:21,161 --> 00:39:23,321 Speaker 4: they got away with it. They got away with it 704 00:39:23,361 --> 00:39:28,241 Speaker 4: because the numbers are staggering. We're talking we're well over 705 00:39:28,561 --> 00:39:32,361 Speaker 4: one hundred unsolved homicides of young women, hundreds and hundreds 706 00:39:32,401 --> 00:39:34,881 Speaker 4: of young men at this stage, we haven't even been 707 00:39:34,921 --> 00:39:37,921 Speaker 4: told the names of the children. That they don't release 708 00:39:38,081 --> 00:39:41,201 Speaker 4: the names of the children anyone under seventeen. We will 709 00:39:41,241 --> 00:39:44,961 Speaker 4: be redressing that situation. We want to know the full picture. 710 00:39:45,241 --> 00:39:48,241 Speaker 4: And if you don't accept there's a serial killer out there, 711 00:39:48,321 --> 00:39:52,201 Speaker 4: well then there's hundreds of individual murderers and both are ghastling. 712 00:39:52,401 --> 00:39:55,361 Speaker 4: And it's probably the case that we've got some prolific 713 00:39:55,441 --> 00:39:59,841 Speaker 4: serial killers or killer out there that have escaped justice 714 00:40:00,001 --> 00:40:01,121 Speaker 4: that Ivan and. 715 00:40:01,121 --> 00:40:03,241 Speaker 1: His cohort probably did a lot more. 716 00:40:03,441 --> 00:40:07,361 Speaker 4: And in particular cases people murdered one or two people 717 00:40:07,601 --> 00:40:09,961 Speaker 4: and got away with it as well. So all of 718 00:40:10,001 --> 00:40:14,201 Speaker 4: those things are absolutely an abysmal outcome and one that 719 00:40:14,241 --> 00:40:17,001 Speaker 4: we are going to flip every rock over on to 720 00:40:17,081 --> 00:40:19,641 Speaker 4: see how it could be to come to pass and 721 00:40:19,681 --> 00:40:21,601 Speaker 4: whether or not is that we can do anything about it. 722 00:40:22,561 --> 00:40:25,281 Speaker 2: Jeremy, I wish you the best of luck and I'm 723 00:40:25,601 --> 00:40:28,721 Speaker 2: mightily impressed I've got gend me a lot of scorn. 724 00:40:28,481 --> 00:40:31,641 Speaker 3: For politicians and the political process, but you're using it 725 00:40:31,841 --> 00:40:34,601 Speaker 3: the way it should be. Desperate times, desperate measures. 726 00:40:34,641 --> 00:40:37,001 Speaker 2: So thank you for your dash and this and advocating 727 00:40:37,041 --> 00:40:39,641 Speaker 2: on behalf of all those families who currently do not 728 00:40:39,681 --> 00:40:40,841 Speaker 2: have a voice for their loved ones. 729 00:40:40,841 --> 00:40:41,401 Speaker 3: Thanks for your tom. 730 00:40:42,081 --> 00:40:44,121 Speaker 4: I really appreciate it, and i'd like to say too, 731 00:40:44,161 --> 00:40:45,961 Speaker 4: And I said this in when I gave the speech 732 00:40:45,961 --> 00:40:49,441 Speaker 4: in Parliament going this It is because of campaigning, journalists 733 00:40:49,481 --> 00:40:54,761 Speaker 4: and podcastism and authors that these matters remain unforgotten, So 734 00:40:55,321 --> 00:40:58,081 Speaker 4: a lot to reciprocate. I really appreciate the work you 735 00:40:58,121 --> 00:41:01,201 Speaker 4: do in getting the information out and keeping these stories 736 00:41:01,241 --> 00:41:04,321 Speaker 4: alive because we just can't. You know, there's that movement 737 00:41:04,401 --> 00:41:08,481 Speaker 4: to keep the lyfe On foundation. We can't forget these people, 738 00:41:09,001 --> 00:41:11,561 Speaker 4: and who knows what we will turn up. We won't 739 00:41:11,561 --> 00:41:14,401 Speaker 4: turn up anything if we stop looking and stop talking 740 00:41:14,401 --> 00:41:18,601 Speaker 4: about it. So I appreciate your interest too. 741 00:41:20,081 --> 00:41:23,641 Speaker 2: Update since any view, Jeremy. He has gone ahead and 742 00:41:23,761 --> 00:41:27,921 Speaker 2: named Mercury in the new South Wales Parliament under parliamentary privilege. 743 00:41:28,521 --> 00:41:32,881 Speaker 2: He's also read out Mercury's nineteen seventy one confession there 744 00:41:32,921 --> 00:41:35,440 Speaker 2: is still a suppression order that stops me and other 745 00:41:35,521 --> 00:41:38,401 Speaker 2: media from naming him, and we could face a year 746 00:41:38,401 --> 00:41:41,601 Speaker 2: in jail if we breach that order. But at least 747 00:41:41,601 --> 00:41:45,201 Speaker 2: this individual will feel his cloak of anonymity has been 748 00:41:45,241 --> 00:41:50,041 Speaker 2: lifted ever so slightly. If Mercury didn't kill Eryl Grimmer, 749 00:41:50,321 --> 00:41:53,121 Speaker 2: then he should come out and explain why he confessed 750 00:41:53,481 --> 00:41:57,121 Speaker 2: in such compelling detail that he committed the crime. So 751 00:41:57,281 --> 00:42:01,801 Speaker 2: father silence has been deafening and unacceptable. People should not 752 00:42:01,881 --> 00:42:05,721 Speaker 2: be able to hide behind technical loopholes to avoid scrutiny. 753 00:42:06,281 --> 00:42:06,761 Speaker 3: I'll keep you. 754 00:42:06,761 --> 00:42:08,961 Speaker 2: Posted on that one, but if you have any information 755 00:42:09,041 --> 00:42:12,001 Speaker 2: on Cheryl's case or any other crime, you can call 756 00:42:12,041 --> 00:42:15,441 Speaker 2: Crime Stoppers on one eight hundred, triple three, triple zero. 757 00:42:15,721 --> 00:42:17,401 Speaker 2: If you don't trust the cops, you can send me 758 00:42:17,441 --> 00:42:20,801 Speaker 2: an email on Adam Shanned writer at gmail dot com 759 00:42:20,841 --> 00:42:23,801 Speaker 2: and also get in touch with the Parliamentary Inquiry. Thank 760 00:42:23,841 --> 00:42:26,721 Speaker 2: you for listening. This has been Adam Shanned for real crime.