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Speaker 1: Can I thanks for listening to the show. This is

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Speaker 1: Better than Yesterday, conversations and ideas to make your day

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Speaker 1: to day better than yesterday, every week since twenty thirteen.

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Speaker 1: My name's Oshiginsburg. I'm glad you're here, but I do

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Speaker 1: have a question for you. Have you ever been told

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Speaker 1: that you're wrong? And I'm talking about Oh that thing

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Speaker 1: that you just said that was not correct? No? No,

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Speaker 1: you as a person, who you are, what you want,

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Speaker 1: what you feel, have you been told that is wrong?

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Speaker 1: Now you need to be fixed, You need to be saved.

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Speaker 1: What if you were being told that you're wrong all

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Speaker 1: the time by the people that surround you for the

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Speaker 1: most formative years of your life, and what effect does

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Speaker 1: it have on you? More, what would it take to

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Speaker 1: liberate yourself from those beliefs, to feel proud of who

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Speaker 1: you are as you were born and step into a

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Speaker 1: life that you want. Well, that is exactly what Tim

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Speaker 1: Pocock is here to talk to us about today. It's

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Speaker 1: an extraordinary conversation. We'll get to it right after this.

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Speaker 2: At school, you'd hear stories. There'd be these other kids,

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Speaker 2: these other maybe you know, questionably flamboyant kids who just

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Speaker 2: would all of a sudden disappear. My mum would love

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Speaker 2: to use example. She would love to sort of be

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Speaker 2: critical of others as a sort of a teaching mechanism

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Speaker 2: for us. So she would talk quite freely about like,

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Speaker 2: what did you hear about so and So's child. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: it turns out he's decided that he's gay now, so

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Speaker 2: you know, they've just sent him off to this place

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Speaker 2: to you know, get fixed and stuff. But like, gosh,

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Speaker 2: where did his parents go wrong? You know, I just

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Speaker 2: wonder like how could they have dropped the ball like this?

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Speaker 2: And you'd hear those kinds of conversations and I'd be

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Speaker 2: there in my mind kind of thinking like, oh, okay, well,

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Speaker 2: I definitely have hell waiting for me when I die.

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Speaker 2: And I know I'm getting punched in the face tomorrow

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Speaker 2: when I go back to school. But I really don't

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Speaker 2: want to be shipped off to some camp and have

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Speaker 2: people poking around in my brain. That's why I never

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Speaker 2: came out. I just kept it to myself. I didn't

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Speaker 2: want anyone to know. When I did actually get taken,

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Speaker 2: it was sort of under false pretenses.

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Speaker 1: Thanks so much for listening to the show. This is

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Speaker 1: better than Yesterday. Tim Pocox on the show today very quickly.

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Speaker 1: This Sunday at Story Club, our theme is Everybody needs

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Speaker 1: good neighbors. And there's a line in that story that

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Speaker 1: I'm going to tell on Sunday night. The tickets in

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Speaker 1: the show notes if we want to get there, there's

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Speaker 1: a line in there which just kind of, I guess

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Speaker 1: sets the scene a little bit for the conversation I'm

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Speaker 1: about to have with with Tim, because I'm going to

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Speaker 1: tell a story on Sunday night about what happened when

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Speaker 1: I was a teenager and a family of bikers moved

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Speaker 1: in next door. And what's interesting is that there was

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Speaker 1: one kind of dad and he had some mates around it,

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Speaker 1: and I would hang out there a bit and really cool.

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Speaker 1: But what's interesting is this guy, he was in his thirties,

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Speaker 1: wrote a big fat Harley. Him and his mates. They

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Speaker 1: spoke to me like no other man in my life

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Speaker 1: spoke to me, because at the time when I was

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Speaker 1: living there, I was going to an all boys private

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Speaker 1: school in Prisbone, and the men in power there would

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Speaker 1: scream at us like we were naughty children and would

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Speaker 1: punish us, sometimes physically, for not behaving like the men

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Speaker 1: that they wanted us to be. But the guys who

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Speaker 1: lived next door, they didn't speak to me like that.

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Speaker 1: They spoke to me like I was a young version

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Speaker 1: of them who deserved their respect, a person that they

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Speaker 1: would relish sharing the secrets of the world with. And

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Speaker 1: I thought about that listening to Tim's episode a conversation

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Speaker 1: before publishing it today, because while I wasn't involved in

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Speaker 1: any kind of religion, organized religion, kind of schooling like

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Speaker 1: he was, mine was pretty organized and pretty religion. It's

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Speaker 1: great for some people, it's not for me. I was

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Speaker 1: traveling Wolf to a birthday party on the weekend. He said,

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Speaker 1: what's that building? I said, that's a church? So what's

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Speaker 1: a church? Far out? Year five? Thankfully, Nil de grass

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Speaker 1: Tyson has answered the question for me. God is a

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Speaker 1: word that human beings have used for a long time

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Speaker 1: to describe things that science has not defined yet. And look,

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Speaker 1: Wolf and I talk a lot. He was able to

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Speaker 1: hold on to that answer. But yeah, I certainly did

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Speaker 1: not have that experience when I was his age. I

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Speaker 1: b I thought it was all true, as you'll hear

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Speaker 1: me talk about with my guest today, Tim Pocock. Now

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Speaker 1: he's an actor. You may know him from Dance Academy,

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Speaker 1: X Men Origins, Wolverine. You know the two thousand and

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Speaker 1: nine one that Hugh Jackman was just massive in, Like, yeah,

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Speaker 1: he was in that. But today the story that Tim

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Speaker 1: is here to tell is his story. Tim Pocock's just

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Speaker 1: written a book called The Truth Will Set You Free

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Speaker 1: Growing up gay in Opus Day. It's a heavy read.

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Speaker 1: I'm not going to lie because he details what it's

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Speaker 1: like to grow up in a conservative Catholic family, attending

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Speaker 1: school that's got links to Opus Day, a rather intense

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Speaker 1: sect of Catholicism, What he faced when he was going

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Speaker 1: to that school, what are your faced a result of it?

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Speaker 1: And the truly excruciating experience of trying to reconcile what

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Speaker 1: he was being told he should be versus the truth

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Speaker 1: of what he actually was, his eventual experiences with conversion therapy,

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Speaker 1: and even more we get into all that conversation in

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Speaker 1: this one. It is. It's a big one. If you

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Speaker 1: went to a school like mine, you might recognize a

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Speaker 1: bit more than you think you want to recognize. How

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Speaker 1: to have a big sit down after listening to this.

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Speaker 1: The book's great, team's great. I hope you enjoy the show.

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Speaker 1: Look I'm thrilled you came in. How are you doing today?

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Speaker 2: Man, you're right, I'm doing well.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a rainy day. It is any days, didn't

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Speaker 1: he But that's that's lovely. Yeah, because I like wearing

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Speaker 1: my nice jacket, but I haven't had a chance to

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Speaker 1: wear yet.

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Speaker 2: Oh. Look, I was going to be shirtless, but now

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Speaker 2: I've got this ombre thing going on because of the droplets.

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Speaker 2: We can go shirtless if you want to go shirtless, jacketless.

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Speaker 2: It's not podcasts.

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Speaker 1: Now, people, could you know?

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Speaker 3: I mean, only fans just got valued eight billion dollars.

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Speaker 3: I mean they've got something going on over.

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Speaker 2: They made bad career choices.

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Speaker 1: Only fans is worth more than paramount.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's nuts.

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Speaker 1: With the studios, with the back catalog, with MTV, with

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Speaker 1: the streaming channel, with everything, only fans is worth more

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Speaker 1: than that. And that doesn't give you a clue as

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Speaker 1: to why I have not had a TV contract in

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Speaker 1: two years. I don't know what does. It's fun nut,

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Speaker 1: but I'm grateful you're here. When the opportunity came up

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Speaker 1: to speak to you, I was telling you out, tom

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Speaker 1: My producer, I'm can we please please please get them on?

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Speaker 1: I don't have a as extreme story to yours. I

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Speaker 1: think yours is at the edge case of how extreme

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Speaker 1: things can be. But it's a very common story, certainly

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Speaker 1: in the kind of school I went to up in Brisbane,

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Speaker 1: certainly with the experience of people close to me who

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Speaker 1: are not a heteronormative kind of person, and so I

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Speaker 1: thought it was really important to I'm grateful that you

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Speaker 1: wrote this book and you want to talk about it.

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Speaker 2: No, thank you, And that's kind of the point of

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Speaker 2: why I did it, because I think it's something that

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Speaker 2: a lot of people, maybe it gets lost in translation,

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Speaker 2: the fact that there are long term mental health repercussions

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Speaker 2: to growing up in that kind of environment. I think

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Speaker 2: there's this sort of perception that coming out, which is

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Speaker 2: a term I hate, by the way, but that the

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Speaker 2: coming out process is just you click your fingers and

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Speaker 2: then night and day you're now that person, but it's not.

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Speaker 2: You then have to unpack everything, and you have to

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Speaker 2: retrain yourself and how you think, how you think about yourself,

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Speaker 2: what your morals really are, what your tastes are, all

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Speaker 2: those kinds of things, and you know that's a process

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Speaker 2: in and of itself, and certainly in those more conservative

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Speaker 2: areas of the world, there's just no support and there's

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Speaker 2: also a wilful ignorance to what that is like. So

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Speaker 2: I just thought, well, not only have I had my

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Speaker 2: unique experiences, but I also have the opportunity to share them,

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Speaker 2: so that perhaps people can't hide behind that wall of

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Speaker 2: willful ignorance moving forward.

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Speaker 1: Tell me, for firlks, you might not understand what is

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Speaker 1: it about the phrase coming out that rubs you the

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Speaker 1: wrong way.

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Speaker 2: I think it just it oversimplifies what it is. If

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Speaker 2: it was as easy as just being like stuck in

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Speaker 2: a closet, then burst that door down a long time ago.

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Speaker 2: So I just think it's a bit reductive, if anything.

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Speaker 2: So I don't really think there's another term. I can't

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Speaker 2: really come up with anything to change that. But you know,

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Speaker 2: it's really a long journey, and I just think it's

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Speaker 2: easy for people to just say it that way.

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Speaker 1: It's also this misconception that you have one conversation once

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Speaker 1: and that's it.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: No, man, you kind of have to do it twenty

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Speaker 1: times a day, twenty years later.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. The truth will set You Free, which is the

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Speaker 2: title of my book. Initially I was calling it the

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Speaker 2: Cage because that's what it felt like. It feels like

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Speaker 2: being completely trapped and that you are in a cage.

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Speaker 2: Someone else has the key and you can't get out,

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Speaker 2: and the cage really is in your own mind. And

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Speaker 2: so I think that kind of sells why something like

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Speaker 2: the phrase coming out is perhaps you know, not quite enough.

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Speaker 1: There's a friend of mine who is one of the

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Speaker 1: people that I went to this school with, had a

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Speaker 1: huge problem with the affectations and the telegraphing, to the

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Speaker 1: point where he's like, Oh, come on, love, how many

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Speaker 1: SA's are there in Hamburger. I never forget that he

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Speaker 1: said that to somebody once. But on the flip side,

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Speaker 1: I kind of understand if you're tired of saying it

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Speaker 1: all the time, if you throw a bit of a

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Speaker 1: telegraphing in, whether it be a flare of a hand

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Speaker 1: or a particular choice of clothing, an eyebrar ring, whatever,

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Speaker 1: it kind of like, is it not obvious? Do I

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Speaker 1: have to say it out?

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Speaker 2: Wow? Yeah. The other thing as well to that is

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Speaker 2: that it can also just be an expression of the

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Speaker 2: freedom when you're finally feeling it. You know, I'm not

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Speaker 2: really a particularly flamboyant person myself, but it can be

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Speaker 2: really freeing sometimes if I'm having a conversation with someone

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Speaker 2: to do you know, a feminine voice and you know,

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Speaker 2: prants around a little bit. And it's not that I'm

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Speaker 2: you know, like like trying to telegraph or anything. It's

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Speaker 2: just it's me just expressing myself and not having to

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Speaker 2: care that anyone might judge it, because you know, in

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Speaker 2: my own family at home, you know, my mum would

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Speaker 2: like slapped my wrist if she thought it was a

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Speaker 2: little too limb, or she would like, don't walk like that.

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Speaker 2: You look like a sissy boy. People are going to

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Speaker 2: think things about you, and so I just you grow

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Speaker 2: up feeling so self conscious all the time that when

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Speaker 2: you do have those little moments where you're in a

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Speaker 2: safe space and you're around people that don't care, then

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Speaker 2: it can be fun to be like yeah, queen, which

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Speaker 2: you know, I am not that guy. Ironically, sometimes I am.

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Speaker 1: It is a cold and rainy day here in Sydney,

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Speaker 1: so I'm guessing this is somewhat reminiscent of a summer's

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Speaker 1: day of your childhood.

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Speaker 2: Ah yeah, I love weather like this, actually it does.

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Speaker 2: It reminds me because I grew up in country Ireland

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Speaker 2: and it was always gray. It was always quite bleak

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Speaker 2: and miserable. But to me, that's quite romantic. I was

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Speaker 2: always a creative kid, and we had this little enclosed

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Speaker 2: sort of verandah at the front of the house, and

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Speaker 2: our view is incredible, and I would just set up

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Speaker 2: there with an easel. I would listen to audiobooks because

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Speaker 2: I'm dyslexic, so i'd listen to like Wuthering Heights or

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Speaker 2: Jane Ere. I was only like seven, but whatever. I

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Speaker 2: was listening to those kinds of things, and then I

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Speaker 2: would just paint and do that. And so that's kind

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Speaker 2: of like this romantic kind of idea that I have.

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Speaker 2: When the weather is kind of dreary like this, then

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Speaker 2: it just reminds me that and takes me back to

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Speaker 2: that place. Although I didn't super appreciate it this morning

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Speaker 2: because my hair was looking so good earlier. And then

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Speaker 2: I got absolutely dreamed because I thought it would be

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Speaker 2: a great idea to walk and yeah, here we are.

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Speaker 1: I know about a good and bad hair day. I

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Speaker 1: think I'm having both at the same time right now. Ireland,

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Speaker 1: because it's because it's in the anglosphere, because there's English

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Speaker 1: people tend not to associate it with an incredibly strict country,

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Speaker 1: just unintended coming out of a period of unbelievable religious

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Speaker 1: control of the community and the laws of the community.

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Speaker 1: What do people what do people need to understand you

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Speaker 1: think about how religiously conservative Ireland can be.

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Speaker 2: Well, I think, for like, in my particular circumstance, we

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Speaker 2: lived in a very small country town, and I think

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Speaker 2: that the more isolated a place is, whether it's over

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Speaker 2: there or even here in Australia, those kinds of conservative

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Speaker 2: values can remain a little bit more unchecked because there

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Speaker 2: is that separate from the rest of the world, and

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Speaker 2: so current trends in terms of music, TV, that kind

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Speaker 2: of thing just don't quite filter through in the same

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Speaker 2: way as they do in bigger cities. And so we

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Speaker 2: definitely lived there and it was like very catholic town,

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Speaker 2: like everyone was Catholic. And I think that's the reason

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Speaker 2: why my parents chose for that to be where we moved,

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Speaker 2: because they were super conservative and wanted to keep us

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Speaker 2: away from the world. And so it wasn't really so

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Speaker 2: much that I felt the Catholicism, as I just felt

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Speaker 2: an absence of anything else. YEA, So my entire world

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Speaker 2: like everything that I knew, everything that was normal was

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Speaker 2: because everyone around me was doing the exact same thing

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Speaker 2: and had the same kinds of lives, so there was

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Speaker 2: nothing to challenge that perhaps the level of fervor that

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Speaker 2: we had was maybe not what other people were doing.

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Speaker 2: It definitely was such a religious conservative It felt like

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Speaker 2: living fifty years ago or or a hundred years ago.

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Speaker 2: And especially because you've got actual castles in people's front

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Speaker 2: lawns and old buildings and stuff like, it really felt

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Speaker 2: like living in a different world altogether.

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Speaker 1: When was the first time that you had an ink?

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Speaker 1: Because fish don't know what water is. When was the

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Speaker 1: first time you had an inkling that other kids your

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Speaker 1: age looked at the world in a different way and

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Speaker 1: there were other things out there that your parents perhaps

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Speaker 1: had you had not seen yet, or like what's what's

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Speaker 1: that over there? And have an idea that your parents

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Speaker 1: are trying to shut it down, but you're kind of

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Speaker 1: hang on a second that looked kind of interesting.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I remember really wanting to get a bowl cut

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Speaker 2: when I was like six, because that's what If we

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Speaker 2: would go into Cork City, you'd see them and you'd

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Speaker 2: see people wearing the match you match you want to

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Speaker 2: added ass tracksuits, which you know, yes, horrible, but at

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Speaker 2: the time that was fashion and that was cool, and

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Speaker 2: I just I wanted that. And that was when like

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Speaker 2: mum was just very much like, no, no, you're not

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Speaker 2: wearing what other people wear. You're not getting haircuts people

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Speaker 2: are getting because that's modern and modern is bad. And

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Speaker 2: even as a young child, I remember thinking like, but why,

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Speaker 2: and we'd watch movies from the fifties. We wouldn't watch current.

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Speaker 1: Film where a man would slap a woman and go

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Speaker 1: down together.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, really like My Fair Lady, you know, the sort

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Speaker 2: of very yeah and like just very sort of old

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Speaker 2: school misogyny just sort of like steeped into there. And

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Speaker 2: you know, kids my age were watching The Witches that

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Speaker 2: movie had just come out, and absolutely not allowed to

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Speaker 2: watch that because Witchcraft is a cult and devil worship

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Speaker 2: and all of that. But it's just a film. And

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Speaker 2: so that was sort of when I started to realize that,

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Speaker 2: you know, even in our small country town, the other

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Speaker 2: kids were accessing things like that and Captain Planet, which

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Speaker 2: was also off off off limits for us. I'm pretty

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Speaker 2: happy for it, I mean, back we should yeah Captain Yeah, well,

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Speaker 2: I mean I wouldn't know. I was never allowed to

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Speaker 2: see it because because that was worshiping the world. Oh,

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Speaker 2: so I was even seen as like, you know, you

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Speaker 2: should only be worshiping God. So Captain Planet because it

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Speaker 2: had sort of a like a green agenda, so to speak,

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Speaker 2: can't watch that. So I did find it even early

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Speaker 2: on difficult to connect with other children my age, But

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Speaker 2: that sort of turned sort of more so when I

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Speaker 2: came back to Australia and I actually accidentally became an

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Speaker 2: opera singer when I was ten, and so I was

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Speaker 2: starting to then meet kids who were performers, who went

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Speaker 2: to other schools, who didn't go to Mass every single

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Speaker 2: day and pray the Rosary every single day and all

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Speaker 2: of that, and that was when I started to kind

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Speaker 2: of go, oh, like, I think, maybe maybe I'm in

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Speaker 2: a bubble.

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Speaker 1: I don't know.

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Speaker 2: And I started noticing boys sort of already, but that

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Speaker 2: was obviously wrong. But then, even though we were still

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Speaker 2: so young and sexuality wasn't really a thing, I started

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Speaker 2: to kind of have this thought of like, oh, maybe

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Speaker 2: if I didn't know those things, I would actually feel

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Speaker 2: better about myself.

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Speaker 1: I do want to get to that the audition moment

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Speaker 1: because that's that's you know, that's the end of act

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Speaker 1: literally the end of act one. That's the turning point

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Speaker 1: before on page thirty that's where you do the audition.

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Speaker 1: But we'll go before that. There's scream right and stuff

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Speaker 1: because I remember, as in myself, when those switches were

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Speaker 1: starting to fire, you know, those little lights in the

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Speaker 1: control panel were starting to light up. I see it

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Speaker 1: in my son. There's a he's five and a bits

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Speaker 1: nearly six, and about two months ago, there's a we

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Speaker 1: watched the New Transformers movie and there's a pretty hot

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Speaker 1: lady Transformer and he's like, Dad, can we draw I

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Speaker 1: can't remember her name? It's like, can we draw her? Like? Yeah,

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Speaker 1: we'd looking through pictures as I like sketch. He's like, no,

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Speaker 1: that one, that one, that one, yeah, and he really

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Speaker 1: not interested in any other ones, the ones with the

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Speaker 1: guards at noop. He wants the one with the great

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Speaker 1: curves and okay, buddy. And you know, there's there's people

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Speaker 1: in my life who and you and they were five.

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Speaker 1: You know when did you kind of have it? You

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Speaker 1: said you had an inkling? Did you remember how that

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Speaker 1: showed up?

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Speaker 2: Definitely? Yeah, It's something that I've thought about a lot.

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Speaker 2: I had a crush on an altar boy when we

352
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Speaker 2: lived in Ireland, the classics classic. Absolutely yeah. Well, I

353
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Speaker 2: mean I had no other social sphere. I was in church,

354
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Speaker 2: so but you know, it was just this boy. He

355
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Speaker 2: was a few years older than me, went to my

356
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Speaker 2: same school, and every morning before school we'd go to

357
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Speaker 2: the local church and go to Mass, and he would

358
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Speaker 2: always be serving, and I just liked the look of him.

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Speaker 2: I didn't understand it. I didn't get it. I'd never

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Speaker 2: heard the word gay or homosexual before in my life, Like,

361
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Speaker 2: I didn't get any of that. But having watched things

362
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Speaker 2: like say the sound of music, I was like, oh,

363
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Speaker 2: I'm looking at him the way that Maria looks at

364
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Speaker 2: Captain von Trapp. I don't think I meant to be

365
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Speaker 2: looking at him that way.

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Speaker 1: Oh where did that message? Where did the I don't

367
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Speaker 1: think I meant to come from?

368
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Speaker 2: Because I'd never seen anything like that before. I didn't

369
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Speaker 2: know anyone who was like that. You know, boys were

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Speaker 2: meant to like girls. And that was just the end

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Speaker 2: of it. And I just started to realize, like, oh,

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Speaker 2: I think you know, I've got the Doe eyes for

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Speaker 2: another male. And so it just felt even without really

374
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Speaker 2: understanding it. It's different, and different is wrong and at.

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Speaker 1: That time, and this is the part that I really

376
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Speaker 1: related to in the book You're in Doctrine. It's so

377
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Speaker 1: much that any of those kind of urges or things

378
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Speaker 1: are really wrong and bad. Oh yeah, you know, there's

379
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Speaker 1: great explanations of pits of hell. I drove past a

380
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Speaker 1: church all the way here that rhymed.

381
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Speaker 2: It was like.

382
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Speaker 1: Hit church before you hit the hearse well, like bleak

383
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Speaker 1: Hell's coming for you. Yeah, it's like, but it isn't.

384
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Speaker 1: I was just drove past. But at the time I

385
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Speaker 1: completely belie that I didn't know anything else, and I

386
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Speaker 1: felt terrible that I was having these thoughts and touching

387
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Speaker 1: myself in these ways, and I was so ashamed of it.

388
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Speaker 1: And I read in that and I was, you know,

389
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Speaker 1: I literally lay there at night whispering it to my pillow,

390
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Speaker 1: the thousands of those fucking prayers, hoping that it would

391
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Speaker 1: make it stop.

392
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Speaker 2: Yeah. Same, Yeah, how fucking torturous exactly, which child, Yeah, absolutely,

393
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Speaker 2: And that's again that's what I think that like so

394
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Speaker 2: many people that don't really think about Yeah, especially the

395
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Speaker 2: people who, regardless of their beliefs, you know, I'm not

396
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Speaker 2: anti religion. I'm not, you know, wanting people to have

397
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Speaker 2: different beliefs or whatever. I just want people to maybe

398
00:20:39,640 --> 00:20:41,240
Speaker 2: have a little bit of a different way of thinking

399
00:20:41,240 --> 00:20:44,199
Speaker 2: about these things, because you're right, when someone is a

400
00:20:44,240 --> 00:20:47,919
Speaker 2: young child in early stages of development, for them to

401
00:20:48,119 --> 00:20:52,960
Speaker 2: have such torturous, deep self loathing is a really damaging

402
00:20:53,000 --> 00:20:55,840
Speaker 2: and harmful thing. And I really don't think that any

403
00:20:55,920 --> 00:20:59,520
Speaker 2: parent of any religion would want that for their child,

404
00:20:59,600 --> 00:21:01,880
Speaker 2: and I think that they are sort of maybe perhaps

405
00:21:01,960 --> 00:21:04,200
Speaker 2: not aware of it, because of course the child can't

406
00:21:04,200 --> 00:21:07,240
Speaker 2: speak up for themselves, which is why it is a cage,

407
00:21:07,240 --> 00:21:09,280
Speaker 2: which is why they do feel so trapped. It's all

408
00:21:09,400 --> 00:21:13,560
Speaker 2: very internalized, and so you know, I think again that's

409
00:21:13,560 --> 00:21:15,200
Speaker 2: sort of part of my mission saving with the book,

410
00:21:15,320 --> 00:21:18,159
Speaker 2: is that I can maybe be that voice and maybe

411
00:21:18,359 --> 00:21:22,840
Speaker 2: break through that, because I mean, in my case, we'd

412
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Speaker 2: listen to lectures about hell that were recorded by bishops overseas,

413
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Speaker 2: but also we had these books of saints in our house,

414
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Speaker 2: and at nighttime, instead of saying, you know, a bedtime story,

415
00:21:35,760 --> 00:21:38,240
Speaker 2: we would have read to us, you know, these lives

416
00:21:38,240 --> 00:21:40,280
Speaker 2: of these saints people for us to try and emulate.

417
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Speaker 2: And some of these saints had actual visions of Hell,

418
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Speaker 2: or in one case, I think sister Josepha Menendez, she

419
00:21:49,280 --> 00:21:54,240
Speaker 2: physically went body and soul to Hell. God gifted her

420
00:21:54,280 --> 00:21:58,880
Speaker 2: with that experience, supposedly, and then she wrote these graphic

421
00:21:58,920 --> 00:22:01,439
Speaker 2: depictions of like in one of them, I remember, it's

422
00:22:01,480 --> 00:22:04,399
Speaker 2: so vividly because I'm a claustrophobic person, where she gets

423
00:22:04,520 --> 00:22:09,679
Speaker 2: doubled over, popped into a hole in the wall that

424
00:22:09,760 --> 00:22:12,600
Speaker 2: is scorching hot, and it is constantly just pressing on her.

425
00:22:12,680 --> 00:22:15,919
Speaker 2: She can't breathe, she can't move, and it's just that

426
00:22:16,200 --> 00:22:20,080
Speaker 2: for all eternity. Can my kids Daddy? Literally yeah, sleep well?

427
00:22:20,359 --> 00:22:22,280
Speaker 2: And then you're just lying in bed and you know,

428
00:22:22,440 --> 00:22:25,480
Speaker 2: those visions just start surrounding you. And when you've got

429
00:22:25,520 --> 00:22:27,679
Speaker 2: something inside of you, you're like, I am different, And

430
00:22:27,760 --> 00:22:30,120
Speaker 2: like I looked at you know, that kid the other

431
00:22:30,200 --> 00:22:32,399
Speaker 2: day and thought I liked the look of his face.

432
00:22:32,440 --> 00:22:34,919
Speaker 2: And that means that that is literally what's waiting for

433
00:22:34,960 --> 00:22:39,919
Speaker 2: me when I die. Yeah, not pleasant, there's a I

434
00:22:40,000 --> 00:22:40,240
Speaker 2: got it.

435
00:22:40,280 --> 00:22:42,600
Speaker 1: I put it in my notes because it was so heartbreaking,

436
00:22:43,000 --> 00:22:46,320
Speaker 1: this quote. I cried myself to sleep at night, praying

437
00:22:46,359 --> 00:22:48,480
Speaker 1: with complete certainty that I would wake up in the

438
00:22:48,480 --> 00:22:49,840
Speaker 1: morning and no longer be gay.

439
00:22:52,160 --> 00:22:55,360
Speaker 2: Yeah I wanted that. Yeah.

440
00:22:55,400 --> 00:22:57,879
Speaker 1: So at that point you have this realization that I

441
00:22:58,520 --> 00:23:02,600
Speaker 1: am the thing they say is bad, therefore I'm bad

442
00:23:02,960 --> 00:23:07,800
Speaker 1: and like that twisted, shitty loop that you get stuck in. Yeah,

443
00:23:07,840 --> 00:23:09,239
Speaker 1: how long were you in that space? For?

444
00:23:09,480 --> 00:23:13,359
Speaker 2: Oh years, like well into my twenties, from probably age

445
00:23:13,480 --> 00:23:17,239
Speaker 2: twelve thirteen till like I mean, I mean I was.

446
00:23:17,960 --> 00:23:20,680
Speaker 2: I was twenty six when I was taken in for

447
00:23:20,760 --> 00:23:29,679
Speaker 2: conversion therapy, and I still at that point had been hiding, pretending,

448
00:23:30,320 --> 00:23:32,919
Speaker 2: you know, wishing. Even at that point, I was like,

449
00:23:32,920 --> 00:23:35,560
Speaker 2: I'm not going to change, but I'll be happily celibate

450
00:23:35,600 --> 00:23:37,480
Speaker 2: for the rest of my life. I would like pray

451
00:23:37,560 --> 00:23:40,080
Speaker 2: to God and say, all right, dude, let's let's let's

452
00:23:40,119 --> 00:23:43,480
Speaker 2: make a pact. I'm a good guy. I all to serve.

453
00:23:43,560 --> 00:23:45,879
Speaker 2: I play organ at mass, I run a children's choir

454
00:23:46,000 --> 00:23:49,520
Speaker 2: at church. I'd take care of my mom and my grandma,

455
00:23:49,760 --> 00:23:51,440
Speaker 2: like I go to Mass every week and most of

456
00:23:51,480 --> 00:23:53,080
Speaker 2: the time during the weeks. Like you know, I'm a

457
00:23:53,080 --> 00:23:55,080
Speaker 2: good guy. I ask for you to change this. You

458
00:23:55,080 --> 00:23:57,840
Speaker 2: haven't changed it. So how about you just give me

459
00:23:58,920 --> 00:24:02,360
Speaker 2: like a bit and acting career and I'll be celibrate

460
00:24:02,440 --> 00:24:04,680
Speaker 2: for the rest of my life. I'll be George Clooney,

461
00:24:04,960 --> 00:24:07,720
Speaker 2: like I will go and just like never marry, but

462
00:24:07,760 --> 00:24:10,200
Speaker 2: I'm going to work on like movie after movie after movie.

463
00:24:10,200 --> 00:24:13,879
Speaker 2: I think, well, at the time, he was, you know

464
00:24:13,920 --> 00:24:16,240
Speaker 2: that like bachelor that was never settling down. So that

465
00:24:16,320 --> 00:24:17,800
Speaker 2: was what I was telling myself in there.

466
00:24:17,800 --> 00:24:19,280
Speaker 1: I think there was a lot of routing going on.

467
00:24:19,400 --> 00:24:21,560
Speaker 2: Well for sure, yeah, yeah, but I was going to

468
00:24:21,600 --> 00:24:27,840
Speaker 2: be the good version, not just the bachelor living. Yeah,

469
00:24:28,080 --> 00:24:29,320
Speaker 2: that ear thing that people do.

470
00:24:31,880 --> 00:24:35,360
Speaker 1: Fuck how twisted like that. As an adult, those kind

471
00:24:35,359 --> 00:24:38,280
Speaker 1: of things are happening. But just to go back a little,

472
00:24:38,280 --> 00:24:40,840
Speaker 1: he ended up in in Sydney and it was the

473
00:24:40,880 --> 00:24:46,280
Speaker 1: Australian Youth Choir and to your school, yeah, which it's

474
00:24:46,280 --> 00:24:48,240
Speaker 1: always exciting when you people are on the grounds and

475
00:24:48,400 --> 00:24:50,639
Speaker 1: nobody's parents and the people we see all the time.

476
00:24:50,680 --> 00:24:54,199
Speaker 1: When you're watching people of your age standing there singing,

477
00:24:55,280 --> 00:24:57,800
Speaker 1: was there a realization of like, oh, hang on, this

478
00:24:57,840 --> 00:24:58,680
Speaker 1: is something.

479
00:25:00,000 --> 00:25:01,719
Speaker 2: I sort of not not really was weird. I'd been

480
00:25:01,760 --> 00:25:04,399
Speaker 2: playing piano since I was three, and I'd liked music

481
00:25:05,520 --> 00:25:07,760
Speaker 2: and I'd sort of just adapted to that really well,

482
00:25:07,960 --> 00:25:10,320
Speaker 2: so I really enjoyed music, and I liked classical music.

483
00:25:10,400 --> 00:25:13,679
Speaker 2: I'd never really sung before. It wasn't something that was like, oh,

484
00:25:13,680 --> 00:25:16,840
Speaker 2: I really want to do that. But when they came,

485
00:25:17,200 --> 00:25:18,960
Speaker 2: they sort of just did this mass audition. They had

486
00:25:19,080 --> 00:25:22,040
Speaker 2: everyone stand together. They just had everyone sing the national

487
00:25:22,080 --> 00:25:24,800
Speaker 2: anthem together, and they just kind of walked around. If

488
00:25:24,800 --> 00:25:27,000
Speaker 2: they heard a promising voice, they'd invite them to come

489
00:25:27,000 --> 00:25:27,879
Speaker 2: and do a proper audition.

490
00:25:28,119 --> 00:25:30,040
Speaker 1: How I really believe we were Girt by Sea?

491
00:25:30,280 --> 00:25:32,680
Speaker 2: Yeah? Absolutely well. I thought that I didn't know the words.

492
00:25:32,720 --> 00:25:35,439
Speaker 2: I thought it was dirt by Sea, but like i'd yeah,

493
00:25:35,560 --> 00:25:38,960
Speaker 2: because that kind of that's a beach is dirt by sea. Yeah,

494
00:25:39,040 --> 00:25:40,800
Speaker 2: But I just didn't know the words, so I didn't sing.

495
00:25:40,840 --> 00:25:42,919
Speaker 2: And then they're like, oh, you too shy, and I'm like,

496
00:25:43,280 --> 00:25:45,399
Speaker 2: in my thick Irish accent, I was just like, oh,

497
00:25:45,400 --> 00:25:47,280
Speaker 2: I just like got here. I don't know the accident.

498
00:25:47,320 --> 00:25:49,280
Speaker 2: I don't actually know how to sing it, and they

499
00:25:49,280 --> 00:25:50,720
Speaker 2: were like, oh, do you want to sing something else?

500
00:25:50,760 --> 00:25:53,399
Speaker 2: So I just sang Twinkle Twinkle, Little Star, and they're like,

501
00:25:53,400 --> 00:25:55,679
Speaker 2: all right, you can come an audition. And it just

502
00:25:55,800 --> 00:25:58,520
Speaker 2: sort of happened that way, and then that opened other

503
00:25:58,560 --> 00:26:00,480
Speaker 2: doors sort of moving forward, and it.

504
00:26:00,520 --> 00:26:02,359
Speaker 1: Did was quite the cascade. What was it like to

505
00:26:02,400 --> 00:26:06,240
Speaker 1: have an affirmation, a positive message about who you were

506
00:26:06,440 --> 00:26:09,399
Speaker 1: from people that weren't almost in charge of you, like

507
00:26:09,480 --> 00:26:10,680
Speaker 1: parents or teachers and things.

508
00:26:11,040 --> 00:26:14,760
Speaker 2: I just I really liked that I had an outlet

509
00:26:14,920 --> 00:26:17,360
Speaker 2: for the creative drive in me. I was too young

510
00:26:17,400 --> 00:26:21,840
Speaker 2: to really understand what that was, but there was just

511
00:26:21,880 --> 00:26:24,480
Speaker 2: something about going into a room with a bunch of

512
00:26:24,480 --> 00:26:27,320
Speaker 2: other kids who liked doing that as well, and having

513
00:26:27,320 --> 00:26:31,840
Speaker 2: that in common, and it not being school. I hated school.

514
00:26:32,119 --> 00:26:36,320
Speaker 2: I didn't understand the point of maths, like we've got calculators, guys, like,

515
00:26:36,920 --> 00:26:41,160
Speaker 2: we don't really need to learn, you know, Pythagoras's theorem.

516
00:26:41,600 --> 00:26:44,919
Speaker 2: And so it was just the idea of doing something

517
00:26:44,960 --> 00:26:48,480
Speaker 2: that was still like a classroom based thing. But I

518
00:26:48,560 --> 00:26:51,879
Speaker 2: actually enjoyed it and I wanted to be there, and

519
00:26:51,920 --> 00:26:54,160
Speaker 2: it would actually often get me through days at school

520
00:26:54,160 --> 00:26:57,959
Speaker 2: because I'd be looking forward to rehearsals that night. And

521
00:26:58,000 --> 00:26:59,919
Speaker 2: that was even before the acting thing came on. That

522
00:27:00,119 --> 00:27:03,000
Speaker 2: was just purely the singing. I just really enjoyed that.

523
00:27:03,200 --> 00:27:06,520
Speaker 1: And you landed in this room of people, you ended

524
00:27:06,600 --> 00:27:10,479
Speaker 1: up you hit the magic flute. By the time you're ten. Yeah,

525
00:27:10,640 --> 00:27:13,640
Speaker 1: with the an Australian Opera.

526
00:27:13,400 --> 00:27:16,080
Speaker 2: Company austral comtry at the Sydney Opera.

527
00:27:17,160 --> 00:27:23,399
Speaker 1: My son's called Wolfka. By the way, after Amadeos, you

528
00:27:23,480 --> 00:27:27,000
Speaker 1: mentioned being in this room of kids your age. What's

529
00:27:27,000 --> 00:27:29,800
Speaker 1: it like going to rehearsals at the Australian Opera Company

530
00:27:29,880 --> 00:27:35,240
Speaker 1: and just being surrounded by grown ups, adults, careers.

531
00:27:35,680 --> 00:27:39,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, seeing your people, what's it like? It was amazing?

532
00:27:39,720 --> 00:27:42,520
Speaker 2: Like I it was really where I first was like

533
00:27:42,720 --> 00:27:47,560
Speaker 2: I can see my future. I saw these other singers, performers.

534
00:27:47,560 --> 00:27:49,520
Speaker 2: I'm like, I can do that one day, because I'm

535
00:27:49,560 --> 00:27:52,679
Speaker 2: already doing it now, and not many people my age

536
00:27:53,040 --> 00:27:55,399
Speaker 2: can say that they're doing this kind of thing. And

537
00:27:55,440 --> 00:27:57,560
Speaker 2: it was like a lead role. It wasn't a chorus role.

538
00:27:57,600 --> 00:27:59,800
Speaker 2: It was like solos and all of that. And I'd

539
00:27:59,840 --> 00:28:01,680
Speaker 2: never done it before and so I just kind of

540
00:28:01,720 --> 00:28:05,520
Speaker 2: like trotted up very naively, like a little Bambie deer

541
00:28:05,520 --> 00:28:07,800
Speaker 2: in the headlights. It did my thing, sang a song,

542
00:28:07,840 --> 00:28:10,360
Speaker 2: and you know, they're like, well, we did that one

543
00:28:10,359 --> 00:28:14,760
Speaker 2: in English. We did other operas in other languages. I

544
00:28:14,800 --> 00:28:18,959
Speaker 2: did one called pelaas and Melasond and I had like

545
00:28:19,000 --> 00:28:21,400
Speaker 2: a line. It was like into which fluid into Thailand.

546
00:28:21,640 --> 00:28:25,280
Speaker 2: Like I still remember that for some reason. And when

547
00:28:25,320 --> 00:28:27,960
Speaker 2: I was such a popular kid at school, and I

548
00:28:28,040 --> 00:28:30,000
Speaker 2: definitely helped myself out, but I would pretend that I

549
00:28:30,000 --> 00:28:32,720
Speaker 2: could speak other languages and I would rattle off the

550
00:28:32,800 --> 00:28:35,560
Speaker 2: lyrics from the operas that I was in, just to

551
00:28:35,680 --> 00:28:40,800
Speaker 2: be like, yeah, I can speak French and they'd be like, oh, wow,

552
00:28:40,840 --> 00:28:43,600
Speaker 2: you really can. I'm like, it's just a song from Carmen.

553
00:28:43,640 --> 00:28:48,160
Speaker 2: But okay, sure, yeah.

554
00:28:48,680 --> 00:28:52,120
Speaker 1: Just to have that that's almost a double life thing

555
00:28:52,160 --> 00:28:55,520
Speaker 1: because you you've got these kids at school and you

556
00:28:55,560 --> 00:28:58,800
Speaker 1: write about it. It's not a great time being at school.

557
00:29:00,040 --> 00:29:03,760
Speaker 1: We all know the kind of names. The singing kid. Yeah,

558
00:29:03,840 --> 00:29:04,520
Speaker 1: it gets called.

559
00:29:04,520 --> 00:29:06,760
Speaker 2: And it doesn't help that I have Coe c K

560
00:29:06,960 --> 00:29:09,720
Speaker 2: in my surname as well, so that just kind of

561
00:29:09,800 --> 00:29:12,640
Speaker 2: upped the ante on any of the other names at.

562
00:29:12,760 --> 00:29:16,959
Speaker 1: This point in your life. Later on, whoa ye, right, bro?

563
00:29:17,120 --> 00:29:19,720
Speaker 2: I mean yeah, well you know now it's it's an asset.

564
00:29:20,200 --> 00:29:27,440
Speaker 2: So so what's it like? Uh, yeah, you're doing You're

565
00:29:27,480 --> 00:29:29,680
Speaker 2: on stage at the Sydney Opera House. You're doing a

566
00:29:29,760 --> 00:29:30,440
Speaker 2: curtain call.

567
00:29:30,560 --> 00:29:34,560
Speaker 1: It's way past bedtime. I was being thrown on stage,

568
00:29:35,160 --> 00:29:38,080
Speaker 1: go to bed, wake up, go to school.

569
00:29:38,440 --> 00:29:40,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I'd still like have like flex of makeup

570
00:29:40,840 --> 00:29:43,320
Speaker 2: on from the night before, which was particularly bad when

571
00:29:43,320 --> 00:29:46,440
Speaker 2: I did. I was in Basloman's Midsummer Night's Dream and

572
00:29:46,480 --> 00:29:49,720
Speaker 2: I was painted pink from head to toe. Yeah yeah,

573
00:29:49,720 --> 00:29:55,120
Speaker 2: because of the fairy children she designed all and stuff.

574
00:29:55,200 --> 00:29:58,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, well she's got more roscers than any Australians, that's right.

575
00:29:58,360 --> 00:30:00,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, not many fourteen year old can say

576
00:30:00,400 --> 00:30:03,640
Speaker 2: they worked with them, so you know, yeah, like it was.

577
00:30:03,720 --> 00:30:06,400
Speaker 2: It was an incredible experience. Think Milan Rouge came out

578
00:30:06,440 --> 00:30:07,800
Speaker 2: like a year later. I was just like, oh, yeah,

579
00:30:07,800 --> 00:30:08,040
Speaker 2: I know.

580
00:30:08,000 --> 00:30:10,400
Speaker 1: Them, yeah big, but you go on to school, it

581
00:30:10,440 --> 00:30:10,880
Speaker 1: was still a.

582
00:30:11,440 --> 00:30:13,239
Speaker 2: Little bit of pink behind the ears, you know. And

583
00:30:13,280 --> 00:30:16,200
Speaker 2: then and it was it was weird because apart from

584
00:30:16,280 --> 00:30:19,920
Speaker 2: just sort of the homophobia that was very entrenched in

585
00:30:19,920 --> 00:30:22,760
Speaker 2: the school, but also in the community that ran and

586
00:30:22,880 --> 00:30:26,360
Speaker 2: organized the schools and everything, apart from that, it was

587
00:30:26,440 --> 00:30:29,040
Speaker 2: the fact that they were doing all of this based

588
00:30:29,040 --> 00:30:32,040
Speaker 2: on justice suspicion, and that suspicion was based on my talent.

589
00:30:32,880 --> 00:30:35,240
Speaker 2: So this thing that brought me so much joy every night,

590
00:30:35,320 --> 00:30:37,680
Speaker 2: and that made me come alive and you know, getting

591
00:30:37,720 --> 00:30:41,440
Speaker 2: standing ovations from thousands of people every night was also

592
00:30:41,600 --> 00:30:45,000
Speaker 2: becoming the source of my torment as well. So then

593
00:30:45,040 --> 00:30:47,600
Speaker 2: I started to have this really negative sort of thing, like,

594
00:30:47,840 --> 00:30:50,520
Speaker 2: you know, why did you give me this ability? Like

595
00:30:50,560 --> 00:30:53,120
Speaker 2: why couldn't I have just been better at sports or

596
00:30:53,640 --> 00:30:56,320
Speaker 2: you know, like and it, yeah, just sort of felt

597
00:30:56,400 --> 00:30:58,680
Speaker 2: unfair in a way because I wasn't asking for any

598
00:30:58,720 --> 00:31:02,200
Speaker 2: of it, And you know, I lived for the times

599
00:31:02,200 --> 00:31:04,680
Speaker 2: that I was in rehearsal or on stage because it

600
00:31:04,800 --> 00:31:10,000
Speaker 2: was away from the rest of it. And the worst

601
00:31:10,200 --> 00:31:13,240
Speaker 2: thing really was when my opera career had to end

602
00:31:13,320 --> 00:31:15,720
Speaker 2: because you know, puberty happens, your voice changes, you can't

603
00:31:15,720 --> 00:31:17,000
Speaker 2: be a voice soprano anymore.

604
00:31:17,120 --> 00:31:18,719
Speaker 1: Well, there were ways that they used to do it,

605
00:31:18,880 --> 00:31:22,080
Speaker 1: there were, Yeah, but the somewhere along the way, castrati

606
00:31:22,120 --> 00:31:22,920
Speaker 1: stopped being a thing.

607
00:31:23,120 --> 00:31:25,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, there's still a well castrati for sure, but you

608
00:31:25,640 --> 00:31:30,040
Speaker 2: know there's still countertenors, which is, you know, such a good.

609
00:31:29,920 --> 00:31:33,320
Speaker 1: Voice, young man, give to your parents, we're going to

610
00:31:33,360 --> 00:31:35,560
Speaker 1: take your testicles out and the rest of your life

611
00:31:35,680 --> 00:31:36,480
Speaker 1: you get to have a job.

612
00:31:36,560 --> 00:31:40,960
Speaker 2: Great what happened, but I would I would have I

613
00:31:40,960 --> 00:31:43,560
Speaker 2: would have gone for it. I honestly would have gone

614
00:31:43,560 --> 00:31:46,560
Speaker 2: for it because when I started noticing puberty, it's you know,

615
00:31:46,680 --> 00:31:50,160
Speaker 2: hairs start growing, right, And I was never taught sex ed.

616
00:31:50,200 --> 00:31:52,440
Speaker 2: My parents didn't teach sex said the school didn't teach

617
00:31:52,480 --> 00:31:56,520
Speaker 2: sex ed because that's sort of how archaic they sort

618
00:31:56,520 --> 00:31:59,920
Speaker 2: of were in their education. So I knew nothing about it.

619
00:32:00,040 --> 00:32:02,160
Speaker 2: I just knew that at some point my voice was

620
00:32:02,200 --> 00:32:05,480
Speaker 2: going to change. So when I started noticing hairs growing, I,

621
00:32:05,600 --> 00:32:09,000
Speaker 2: in my naive sense, thought, well, if I shave them off,

622
00:32:09,560 --> 00:32:12,280
Speaker 2: it's going to stop the puberty. So I would like

623
00:32:12,520 --> 00:32:15,200
Speaker 2: steal my dad's razor and I'd stand in the shower

624
00:32:15,200 --> 00:32:17,360
Speaker 2: and I'd like shave my arms and shave my legs

625
00:32:17,360 --> 00:32:19,800
Speaker 2: and anywhere that hair was growing, just thinking like, if

626
00:32:19,800 --> 00:32:21,920
Speaker 2: I do this, it's going to keep me with a

627
00:32:22,000 --> 00:32:24,320
Speaker 2: high voice. So then I don't ever have to not

628
00:32:24,400 --> 00:32:26,440
Speaker 2: have the opera career anymore, because if I don't have it,

629
00:32:26,960 --> 00:32:30,880
Speaker 2: how do I get through every day? And so that

630
00:32:31,120 --> 00:32:34,280
Speaker 2: was well, you know, it was obviously unavoidable in the

631
00:32:34,320 --> 00:32:37,600
Speaker 2: long term, so as when I then pushed to try

632
00:32:37,640 --> 00:32:43,520
Speaker 2: and change schools. But unfortunately, the way that my school,

633
00:32:43,520 --> 00:32:46,000
Speaker 2: which was you know, run by the Open Stay organization,

634
00:32:47,080 --> 00:32:50,760
Speaker 2: the way that they operate is that they the school

635
00:32:51,040 --> 00:32:54,240
Speaker 2: has a very stronghold on your family life as well.

636
00:32:54,520 --> 00:32:58,120
Speaker 2: They're in constant communication with your parents, you know you have.

637
00:32:58,560 --> 00:33:01,560
Speaker 2: They called them tutors at the time, now they call

638
00:33:01,640 --> 00:33:04,800
Speaker 2: them mentors. Essentially, they're a monitor. They're a member of

639
00:33:04,840 --> 00:33:08,520
Speaker 2: the teaching staff who's a member of OPA stay. More

640
00:33:08,520 --> 00:33:10,719
Speaker 2: often than not, they're what's called an OPA stay numery,

641
00:33:10,760 --> 00:33:13,880
Speaker 2: which means that they're a celibate man that lives communally

642
00:33:14,080 --> 00:33:17,480
Speaker 2: with other teachers from the school and they would just

643
00:33:17,520 --> 00:33:20,040
Speaker 2: come and random intervals during the school week and take

644
00:33:20,040 --> 00:33:22,080
Speaker 2: you out of class for ten fifteen minutes to have

645
00:33:23,240 --> 00:33:29,880
Speaker 2: chats about your growth, your development, always with the focal

646
00:33:29,920 --> 00:33:33,600
Speaker 2: point being on your spirituality and your spiritual life. That

647
00:33:33,640 --> 00:33:36,080
Speaker 2: would then get passed on to the principal, who was

648
00:33:36,120 --> 00:33:39,000
Speaker 2: also a celibate OPA stay numery. He would then have

649
00:33:39,200 --> 00:33:41,520
Speaker 2: meetings with your parents where they'd be like, okay, we're

650
00:33:41,560 --> 00:33:44,600
Speaker 2: noticing this about tim. Then on top of that, they

651
00:33:44,680 --> 00:33:48,440
Speaker 2: had study centers, which is where these celibate teachers lived

652
00:33:48,800 --> 00:33:51,640
Speaker 2: and they would have the kids go after school. You'd

653
00:33:51,760 --> 00:33:54,440
Speaker 2: hop on a bus, you'd go to these study centers,

654
00:33:54,680 --> 00:33:56,800
Speaker 2: which was the home of some of your teachers and

655
00:33:56,840 --> 00:33:59,880
Speaker 2: the priest. You'd do your homework, they had a little chap,

656
00:34:00,120 --> 00:34:01,960
Speaker 2: you'd have a bit of spiritual development, and then you'd

657
00:34:02,000 --> 00:34:05,520
Speaker 2: just hang. You'd play sports, you go ab sailing, and

658
00:34:05,560 --> 00:34:09,000
Speaker 2: did a whole bunch of different sort of activities and stuff.

659
00:34:09,200 --> 00:34:12,200
Speaker 2: The idea was that you were just constantly surrounded by

660
00:34:12,239 --> 00:34:16,080
Speaker 2: them and their influence and everything that would happen within

661
00:34:16,120 --> 00:34:18,520
Speaker 2: their walls. All the school wars would get passed on

662
00:34:18,560 --> 00:34:21,160
Speaker 2: to your parents. At the same time, my mum was

663
00:34:21,200 --> 00:34:24,080
Speaker 2: actually principal of the primary school of the sister school

664
00:34:24,320 --> 00:34:26,799
Speaker 2: that was in the same organization, so she was very

665
00:34:26,880 --> 00:34:30,359
Speaker 2: much surrounded by all of it. She appreciated everything they did.

666
00:34:30,400 --> 00:34:35,080
Speaker 2: She lived for their kind of methodologies, and she wanted

667
00:34:35,120 --> 00:34:36,920
Speaker 2: me and my sister to be, you know, post to

668
00:34:37,000 --> 00:34:40,120
Speaker 2: children for it all. So when I was coming towards

669
00:34:40,120 --> 00:34:43,719
Speaker 2: the end of my opera career and wanting to change

670
00:34:43,719 --> 00:34:46,799
Speaker 2: schools and I got offered partial scholarships for like the

671
00:34:46,840 --> 00:34:52,360
Speaker 2: Sydney Conservatorium of Music High school, she chatted with the school.

672
00:34:54,280 --> 00:34:57,320
Speaker 2: While I wasn't privy to that conversation, I am pretty

673
00:34:57,320 --> 00:35:01,200
Speaker 2: sure that the conversation was within he is gay, he

674
00:35:01,280 --> 00:35:03,600
Speaker 2: just needs to spend more time with us. So I

675
00:35:03,800 --> 00:35:07,239
Speaker 2: was told, your religious education is more important than anything else.

676
00:35:07,360 --> 00:35:10,439
Speaker 2: You're not changing school. So then it was I couldn't leave.

677
00:35:10,520 --> 00:35:12,840
Speaker 2: I was just surrounded by it, And now was, if anything,

678
00:35:13,200 --> 00:35:16,239
Speaker 2: even more surrounded by it because I was now going

679
00:35:16,239 --> 00:35:20,000
Speaker 2: to the study centers after school. And then you have

680
00:35:20,080 --> 00:35:22,239
Speaker 2: another one of the Opstein yumries would come and tap

681
00:35:22,239 --> 00:35:23,919
Speaker 2: you on the shoulder and have chats, and they'd start

682
00:35:23,920 --> 00:35:27,520
Speaker 2: talking to you. You're sixteen years old and they'd be like, oh, yeah,

683
00:35:27,640 --> 00:35:31,200
Speaker 2: you know you've got a strong faith. Yeah, have you

684
00:35:31,239 --> 00:35:34,680
Speaker 2: thought about becoming a numery yourself? Like, you know, that'd

685
00:35:34,680 --> 00:35:37,480
Speaker 2: be a really good idea. The idea being that me,

686
00:35:37,560 --> 00:35:39,560
Speaker 2: as a sixteen year old, I'm saying, yes, I want

687
00:35:39,600 --> 00:35:41,560
Speaker 2: to be celibate for the rest of my life, and

688
00:35:41,600 --> 00:35:43,319
Speaker 2: I want to live in this study center with all

689
00:35:43,360 --> 00:35:46,520
Speaker 2: the rest of you guys and never break outside of

690
00:35:46,520 --> 00:35:50,000
Speaker 2: this bubble. And some kids in my class at that

691
00:35:50,080 --> 00:35:52,920
Speaker 2: young age did take up that make that, you know,

692
00:35:53,640 --> 00:35:54,600
Speaker 2: commitment for life.

693
00:35:54,760 --> 00:35:58,960
Speaker 1: Hearing you describe that, tim, the parallels between the kind

694
00:35:58,960 --> 00:36:02,799
Speaker 1: of thing that I up with, there's not quite as

695
00:36:02,880 --> 00:36:07,160
Speaker 1: intense with the monitoring stuff, but the funneling of young

696
00:36:07,200 --> 00:36:12,400
Speaker 1: boys into this thing. I mean, it's recruitment. It is

697
00:36:12,440 --> 00:36:14,880
Speaker 1: absolutely impossibly grooming.

698
00:36:15,120 --> 00:36:17,160
Speaker 2: Yes, it's very close to.

699
00:36:17,480 --> 00:36:23,560
Speaker 1: It sounds very groomy like and a really weird And

700
00:36:23,640 --> 00:36:25,520
Speaker 1: I guess you know, hearing you tell his tales, man

701
00:36:25,600 --> 00:36:27,680
Speaker 1: like the thing that breaks my heart the most as

702
00:36:27,719 --> 00:36:29,799
Speaker 1: you do, as you recall it, even when you're in

703
00:36:29,840 --> 00:36:33,960
Speaker 1: your twenties, is you were doing everything they told you

704
00:36:34,040 --> 00:36:37,080
Speaker 1: to do to do to get the right thing out

705
00:36:37,080 --> 00:36:39,600
Speaker 1: of this. You go here, you eat the Jesus biscuit,

706
00:36:39,680 --> 00:36:42,360
Speaker 1: you serve, you do the thing, you do the prayers,

707
00:36:42,400 --> 00:36:44,360
Speaker 1: d D D DA. Life is going to be great,

708
00:36:44,680 --> 00:36:47,520
Speaker 1: all right, and you're doing it all and it's still

709
00:36:47,640 --> 00:36:47,960
Speaker 1: isn't there?

710
00:36:48,160 --> 00:36:51,280
Speaker 2: Like, man, how much nothing changed?

711
00:36:51,320 --> 00:36:53,960
Speaker 1: How much torment? Meanwhile, other people go, please let queensland

712
00:36:54,000 --> 00:36:55,760
Speaker 1: within the state of origin, and that happens eight times.

713
00:36:56,040 --> 00:37:01,080
Speaker 1: And you're like, guys, come on, like the torment. As

714
00:37:01,120 --> 00:37:04,680
Speaker 1: you're developing as a young man, how the world works.

715
00:37:05,280 --> 00:37:08,359
Speaker 1: It's like it's just up against you and for no

716
00:37:08,480 --> 00:37:11,520
Speaker 1: other reason, like it didn't have to be like that.

717
00:37:11,880 --> 00:37:14,200
Speaker 2: It didn't. And you know, I have a bit of

718
00:37:14,200 --> 00:37:16,040
Speaker 2: a twist in the book where I do reveal that

719
00:37:16,080 --> 00:37:18,040
Speaker 2: I was adopted and that kind of shows just the

720
00:37:18,520 --> 00:37:24,120
Speaker 2: accident of all of that, because we're also taught that

721
00:37:24,239 --> 00:37:26,680
Speaker 2: in order to sin, you have to have full knowledge

722
00:37:26,719 --> 00:37:31,120
Speaker 2: of the sin, So therefore being gay was the sin. Apparently,

723
00:37:32,080 --> 00:37:34,480
Speaker 2: if I hadn't been adopted by those people, and I've

724
00:37:34,480 --> 00:37:37,560
Speaker 2: been adopted by other people who weren't religious, I still

725
00:37:37,560 --> 00:37:39,920
Speaker 2: would have been gay, but I wouldn't have been told

726
00:37:40,040 --> 00:37:42,480
Speaker 2: that it was a sin, which means that even if

727
00:37:42,760 --> 00:37:45,279
Speaker 2: it is a sin, it wouldn't have counted for me.

728
00:37:46,120 --> 00:37:48,319
Speaker 2: But also I would have been able to have gone

729
00:37:48,360 --> 00:37:51,440
Speaker 2: through all of my adolescent years without having all of

730
00:37:51,440 --> 00:37:55,280
Speaker 2: those other external worries. So then you have this huge

731
00:37:55,360 --> 00:37:57,520
Speaker 2: what if in your life of like, does that mean

732
00:37:58,280 --> 00:38:03,040
Speaker 2: that I maybe would have been more comfortable in myself earlier?

733
00:38:03,200 --> 00:38:05,920
Speaker 2: Would my acting career have happened earlier? Would it have

734
00:38:05,960 --> 00:38:09,120
Speaker 2: been more successful? Would I have carried myself with more confidence?

735
00:38:09,160 --> 00:38:10,719
Speaker 2: Would I have made the same mistakes? Would I have

736
00:38:10,719 --> 00:38:12,960
Speaker 2: fallen for the same boy, Like all of these kinds

737
00:38:12,960 --> 00:38:14,960
Speaker 2: of things that you have to go No, Nope, that's

738
00:38:14,960 --> 00:38:16,239
Speaker 2: a dangerous road to go down.

739
00:38:16,280 --> 00:38:18,600
Speaker 1: Can't change anything in the past. It's just the idea

740
00:38:18,719 --> 00:38:22,560
Speaker 1: that this is what I don't want to like this

741
00:38:22,719 --> 00:38:25,240
Speaker 1: is happening right now as we speak here in Sydney,

742
00:38:25,480 --> 00:38:27,600
Speaker 1: probably within ten k's of here. There's a college just

743
00:38:27,640 --> 00:38:30,960
Speaker 1: over there actually, And it doesn't have to be this way.

744
00:38:31,040 --> 00:38:33,520
Speaker 1: It does, And in this time of trying to be

745
00:38:33,560 --> 00:38:35,560
Speaker 1: different parents and better parents for a children, having so

746
00:38:35,640 --> 00:38:40,239
Speaker 1: much more understanding about how developmentally dangerous it is to

747
00:38:40,400 --> 00:38:44,080
Speaker 1: put these giant absolutes and terrifying thoughts into kids' heads

748
00:38:44,520 --> 00:38:47,320
Speaker 1: and fucking them up with this logic, well, you're clearly

749
00:38:47,360 --> 00:38:48,200
Speaker 1: not braining hard, huh.

750
00:38:50,120 --> 00:38:52,600
Speaker 2: Or the other circular argument that I would always have

751
00:38:52,719 --> 00:38:56,600
Speaker 2: with my mum when the bullying was happening, I would

752
00:38:56,640 --> 00:38:58,640
Speaker 2: always be told what Jesus said, turn the other cheek.

753
00:38:59,400 --> 00:39:01,920
Speaker 2: So it was an old oportunity to be extra virtuous.

754
00:39:01,960 --> 00:39:05,520
Speaker 2: How lucky was I that I got the opportunity to

755
00:39:05,560 --> 00:39:09,200
Speaker 2: be closer to Jesus by emulating him in that way.

756
00:39:09,440 --> 00:39:11,160
Speaker 2: And then the other thing that she would say when

757
00:39:11,200 --> 00:39:12,960
Speaker 2: I would sort of talk about, like, you know, how

758
00:39:13,000 --> 00:39:15,319
Speaker 2: this was unfair or whatever, she'd say, well, we all

759
00:39:15,320 --> 00:39:17,440
Speaker 2: have our cross to bear, you know. Jesus carried his

760
00:39:18,120 --> 00:39:20,520
Speaker 2: and he got crucified, and in a way we all

761
00:39:20,880 --> 00:39:23,359
Speaker 2: have our crosses to bear as well. And so there's

762
00:39:23,400 --> 00:39:26,359
Speaker 2: just there's never an ability to really like break through

763
00:39:26,400 --> 00:39:28,680
Speaker 2: the surface and say no, no, I'm like, I'm like

764
00:39:28,840 --> 00:39:30,680
Speaker 2: really trying to communicate.

765
00:39:30,160 --> 00:39:33,160
Speaker 1: With you here, like but no, yeah, it's not like

766
00:39:33,280 --> 00:39:36,759
Speaker 1: you're set and fire to things or you know, graffitiing

767
00:39:36,840 --> 00:39:38,719
Speaker 1: or anything. You like, I'm doing everything I'm supposed to

768
00:39:38,760 --> 00:39:39,919
Speaker 1: be doing. Guys, you're trying.

769
00:39:40,120 --> 00:39:42,279
Speaker 2: Yeah, and you become the model child. You become the

770
00:39:42,280 --> 00:39:45,560
Speaker 2: people pleaser to try and prove to everyone like there

771
00:39:45,600 --> 00:39:49,080
Speaker 2: isn't actually anything wrong with me. Ultimately though, you know,

772
00:39:50,000 --> 00:39:52,279
Speaker 2: the moment that you do say those words I am

773
00:39:52,320 --> 00:39:56,319
Speaker 2: gay to people in that mindset, that's that's the flick

774
00:39:56,360 --> 00:39:59,759
Speaker 2: of the switch there. Yeah, that's when it's like, oh, well, sorry,

775
00:40:00,000 --> 00:40:01,440
Speaker 2: can't be in each other's lives anymore.

776
00:40:02,320 --> 00:40:07,120
Speaker 1: And so, well, just taking a moment away from Tim

777
00:40:07,120 --> 00:40:15,880
Speaker 1: to play some ads back in just a moment. Do

778
00:40:15,960 --> 00:40:19,560
Speaker 1: you remember along the back fence of your school, the

779
00:40:19,640 --> 00:40:22,840
Speaker 1: house that was there, Well, it's not a house.

780
00:40:23,480 --> 00:40:24,719
Speaker 2: Like the back back fence.

781
00:40:24,840 --> 00:40:27,520
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, yeah, it's not a big it's not a

782
00:40:27,560 --> 00:40:28,120
Speaker 1: small house.

783
00:40:28,320 --> 00:40:30,880
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, it's a giant yeah yeah yeah, yeah.

784
00:40:30,960 --> 00:40:32,600
Speaker 1: I shot three seasons The Bachelor there.

785
00:40:32,760 --> 00:40:35,960
Speaker 2: Oh no way, that's where that was yep, yeah, that

786
00:40:36,000 --> 00:40:36,520
Speaker 2: makes sense.

787
00:40:36,680 --> 00:40:40,960
Speaker 1: And so I was there and bachelorette, and so that's

788
00:40:40,960 --> 00:40:44,880
Speaker 1: why we did Brooks season okay oldly yeah, getting the

789
00:40:44,920 --> 00:40:49,719
Speaker 1: back fence, yeah, okay, yea. And so I would show

790
00:40:49,800 --> 00:40:53,520
Speaker 1: up to work every day and I was like, why

791
00:40:53,520 --> 00:40:55,919
Speaker 1: it's pretty It's like eight o'clock. Why are there's still

792
00:40:56,000 --> 00:40:58,879
Speaker 1: kids playing around here? What she just described is what

793
00:40:58,920 --> 00:41:03,480
Speaker 1: was going on. Yeah, those study groups and those pastoral

794
00:41:03,520 --> 00:41:07,839
Speaker 1: care things happening and fun and run a venture times

795
00:41:07,840 --> 00:41:11,680
Speaker 1: with poison. Yeah, And so that when and this was

796
00:41:11,800 --> 00:41:14,240
Speaker 1: right around when the same sex marriage put a site

797
00:41:15,080 --> 00:41:19,600
Speaker 1: was happening, and that school ended up in the press

798
00:41:19,840 --> 00:41:23,360
Speaker 1: quite significantly because of letters they were sending home.

799
00:41:23,600 --> 00:41:27,640
Speaker 2: They're a big fan of the letter campaigns. I'm fairly

800
00:41:27,680 --> 00:41:30,560
Speaker 2: certain there will be one about me, because I remember

801
00:41:30,600 --> 00:41:33,520
Speaker 2: when I was at school, if there was ever anything

802
00:41:33,640 --> 00:41:37,480
Speaker 2: anti opus stay in the media, there would be letters.

803
00:41:37,600 --> 00:41:39,480
Speaker 2: We would have the teachers come in and talk to

804
00:41:39,560 --> 00:41:41,480
Speaker 2: us about, like, don't pay attention to any of this.

805
00:41:42,520 --> 00:41:44,320
Speaker 2: I worked at a movie cinema when the Da Vinci

806
00:41:44,360 --> 00:41:47,600
Speaker 2: Code came out. The film and one of my teachers

807
00:41:47,640 --> 00:41:50,640
Speaker 2: turned up and tried to have like a protest in

808
00:41:50,680 --> 00:41:54,000
Speaker 2: the Foyer saying that we shouldn't be selling tickets to it, Like, yeah,

809
00:41:54,040 --> 00:41:56,760
Speaker 2: they're very, very big on that, and you know, I'm

810
00:41:56,760 --> 00:41:59,600
Speaker 2: fairly certain that they will be aware that this book

811
00:41:59,640 --> 00:42:01,120
Speaker 2: is happening, and.

812
00:42:01,760 --> 00:42:04,359
Speaker 1: I'll look forward to their correspondence. Yeah, so do I

813
00:42:04,400 --> 00:42:05,680
Speaker 1: wonder what kind of fonts they have?

814
00:42:06,280 --> 00:42:11,600
Speaker 2: Yeah? Well, I received an email from the current principal

815
00:42:13,200 --> 00:42:16,680
Speaker 2: back into NT twenty three after I did the Four

816
00:42:16,719 --> 00:42:20,320
Speaker 2: Corners Report with Louise Milligan about the Oprah State Schools.

817
00:42:20,800 --> 00:42:23,759
Speaker 2: You know, perhaps they'll reach out again, and if they do,

818
00:42:23,840 --> 00:42:26,879
Speaker 2: I'd be interested in having a chat, But I don't

819
00:42:26,920 --> 00:42:29,960
Speaker 2: think they'd like what I have to say, because I

820
00:42:29,960 --> 00:42:32,759
Speaker 2: would like to build a bridge if I could, But

821
00:42:32,880 --> 00:42:36,960
Speaker 2: I know that they're not prepared to have that conversation.

822
00:42:38,480 --> 00:42:43,000
Speaker 2: They We used to go to all night vigils when

823
00:42:43,000 --> 00:42:45,680
Speaker 2: it was the Sydney gain Lesbian Mardi Gras to pray

824
00:42:46,000 --> 00:42:47,160
Speaker 2: for everyone that was there.

825
00:42:47,920 --> 00:42:49,800
Speaker 1: All those prayers were answered. I've been to that party.

826
00:42:49,920 --> 00:42:52,920
Speaker 1: Thank you. It was fucking good. Yeah. I think I

827
00:42:52,960 --> 00:42:56,280
Speaker 1: said oh my God a couple of times and the RhI, Yeah,

828
00:42:56,280 --> 00:42:57,960
Speaker 1: it was real good. I still have a culture that

829
00:42:58,000 --> 00:42:59,640
Speaker 1: shows up because of a bloke eye patched that night,

830
00:43:01,719 --> 00:43:02,359
Speaker 1: So thank you.

831
00:43:02,480 --> 00:43:08,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, no, you're welcome, You're welcome, prain hard just for you.

832
00:43:08,560 --> 00:43:13,600
Speaker 1: Yep, that's wild to teach. And I I was found

833
00:43:13,600 --> 00:43:20,120
Speaker 1: it kind of interesting that in around honestly it was

834
00:43:20,160 --> 00:43:22,680
Speaker 1: up September eleven. It was up to September eleven here

835
00:43:22,680 --> 00:43:25,120
Speaker 1: in Australia, all this like, oh my god, they teach

836
00:43:25,200 --> 00:43:27,200
Speaker 1: this at a Muslim school and that at a Muslim school.

837
00:43:28,120 --> 00:43:30,680
Speaker 1: And I'm watching these news reports go down going hang

838
00:43:30,680 --> 00:43:34,040
Speaker 1: on man, like it's word for word what I got taught.

839
00:43:35,320 --> 00:43:37,759
Speaker 1: But no one ever made a fuss about that. The

840
00:43:38,600 --> 00:43:40,239
Speaker 1: or you'd see the signs in front of a church

841
00:43:40,320 --> 00:43:43,040
Speaker 1: like the one I saw today, you know, hit the

842
00:43:43,120 --> 00:43:44,960
Speaker 1: church before you hit the hearse. Imagine if it was

843
00:43:45,040 --> 00:43:47,879
Speaker 1: like hit a lah before you make sure you see

844
00:43:47,920 --> 00:43:51,440
Speaker 1: a la before you get in the funeral car. People

845
00:43:51,560 --> 00:43:56,400
Speaker 1: lose their minds, lose their minds. Yeah, but apparently it's fine.

846
00:43:56,840 --> 00:44:00,200
Speaker 2: Well, because theirs is the one true religion. Is this

847
00:44:00,400 --> 00:44:03,520
Speaker 2: sort of this, this haughtiness to ours is the best.

848
00:44:03,400 --> 00:44:04,520
Speaker 1: Couple of billion Hindus.

849
00:44:04,560 --> 00:44:08,399
Speaker 2: I'd like to know, well introduce yeah, yeah, absolutely right,

850
00:44:08,480 --> 00:44:12,160
Speaker 2: Like there is a very extremest nature to Catholicism that

851
00:44:12,239 --> 00:44:16,080
Speaker 2: I think people seem to turn a blind eye to

852
00:44:16,560 --> 00:44:19,480
Speaker 2: where they wouldn't say, for like the Muslim culture.

853
00:44:21,120 --> 00:44:22,960
Speaker 1: A lot of this religious stuff. I find it just

854
00:44:23,000 --> 00:44:25,120
Speaker 1: co ops of things that is naturally in us as humans,

855
00:44:25,160 --> 00:44:28,360
Speaker 1: which is to care for each other and try to

856
00:44:28,360 --> 00:44:30,680
Speaker 1: have empathy for our fellow people, because it's only if

857
00:44:30,680 --> 00:44:32,920
Speaker 1: we have empathy and cooperation that we survived. That's how

858
00:44:32,960 --> 00:44:37,960
Speaker 1: we ended up being dominant as a species. There are

859
00:44:38,000 --> 00:44:43,319
Speaker 1: currently in Australia and New South Wales there's starting to

860
00:44:43,320 --> 00:44:48,360
Speaker 1: be organization of particularly in areas like Western Sydney. Organization

861
00:44:48,480 --> 00:44:54,520
Speaker 1: of one would call kind of very centrist, moderate Muslim

862
00:44:54,600 --> 00:44:57,759
Speaker 1: politicians kind of gathering together to start to become some

863
00:44:57,800 --> 00:45:01,040
Speaker 1: sort of an independent cross bench the state or federal parliament,

864
00:45:01,480 --> 00:45:06,440
Speaker 1: and people are very friend about that. However, churches have

865
00:45:06,480 --> 00:45:11,640
Speaker 1: been in politics for a long time and the organization

866
00:45:11,680 --> 00:45:16,080
Speaker 1: you're speaking about their quite the tendrils of their operations.

867
00:45:16,680 --> 00:45:18,280
Speaker 1: It's far more in re grained.

868
00:45:18,520 --> 00:45:21,640
Speaker 2: A lot of people realize, oh absolutely. I mean the

869
00:45:21,719 --> 00:45:25,080
Speaker 2: former Premier of New South Wales, Dominique Perrete, went to

870
00:45:25,120 --> 00:45:29,040
Speaker 2: my school. I knew all of his a lot of

871
00:45:29,080 --> 00:45:31,520
Speaker 2: his siblings. You know. It was one in the year

872
00:45:31,520 --> 00:45:33,399
Speaker 2: below me, who you know, wanted to be an actor

873
00:45:33,400 --> 00:45:35,839
Speaker 2: as well, so he and I'd like helped each other out.

874
00:45:36,680 --> 00:45:39,160
Speaker 2: His younger sister dated one of my cousins for a

875
00:45:39,160 --> 00:45:42,480
Speaker 2: little bit. For people to get up in arms, as

876
00:45:42,520 --> 00:45:46,240
Speaker 2: you say about say people of the Muslim faith trying

877
00:45:46,239 --> 00:45:48,799
Speaker 2: to set up, you know, a party or have some representation,

878
00:45:49,040 --> 00:45:51,319
Speaker 2: when you know, to be honest, like you know, that

879
00:45:51,360 --> 00:45:53,520
Speaker 2: doesn't need to be a threat. There is a Muslim

880
00:45:53,520 --> 00:45:57,040
Speaker 2: population in Australia who perhaps do feel like some of

881
00:45:57,120 --> 00:46:01,640
Speaker 2: their needs aren't being addressed and some of their rights

882
00:46:01,960 --> 00:46:05,279
Speaker 2: or what have you. And yet it does definitely show

883
00:46:05,600 --> 00:46:07,920
Speaker 2: quite a hypocrisy if people are going to be upset

884
00:46:07,920 --> 00:46:12,920
Speaker 2: about that when there's definite people in Parliament as we

885
00:46:12,960 --> 00:46:15,919
Speaker 2: speak that are part of the church, part of that world,

886
00:46:15,960 --> 00:46:22,719
Speaker 2: and who are using their political platforms to make decisions

887
00:46:22,760 --> 00:46:25,759
Speaker 2: on behalf of the people that they supposedly represent that

888
00:46:25,920 --> 00:46:28,799
Speaker 2: actually are just decisions that represent themselves.

889
00:46:29,200 --> 00:46:32,279
Speaker 1: Well, he the ideology is very difficult to separate church

890
00:46:32,280 --> 00:46:33,600
Speaker 1: and state. I mean, you look at what happened with

891
00:46:33,680 --> 00:46:37,200
Speaker 1: nightlife in US in our city of Sydney with eleven

892
00:46:37,280 --> 00:46:40,440
Speaker 1: years of Conservative Christians and government and now King crosses

893
00:46:41,920 --> 00:46:46,879
Speaker 1: yoga studios. Yeah, you know, and you know various other

894
00:46:46,960 --> 00:46:50,239
Speaker 1: kind of ways that access to abortion in Australia as

895
00:46:50,280 --> 00:46:54,400
Speaker 1: well is fucking crazy. Man. So these people who are

896
00:46:54,400 --> 00:46:57,759
Speaker 1: in these positions of power, is it fair to say

897
00:46:57,800 --> 00:47:02,839
Speaker 1: that they may be being unfairly influenced by people outside

898
00:47:03,000 --> 00:47:05,440
Speaker 1: of the parliamentary system, outside of their electorate who they're like,

899
00:47:05,480 --> 00:47:07,000
Speaker 1: that's pretty much where their influence should be.

900
00:47:07,040 --> 00:47:10,680
Speaker 2: And yeah, I wouldn't necessarily say that they're being influenced.

901
00:47:10,680 --> 00:47:15,719
Speaker 2: I think it's it's a determined thing. Like they have

902
00:47:15,800 --> 00:47:19,520
Speaker 2: gotten into politics because they want their voice, they want

903
00:47:19,560 --> 00:47:24,959
Speaker 2: to influence based on their beliefs, and I think there's

904
00:47:24,960 --> 00:47:28,040
Speaker 2: sort of this sense of like, oh, God is placing

905
00:47:28,040 --> 00:47:30,600
Speaker 2: me here because I can do something with it.

906
00:47:31,200 --> 00:47:34,000
Speaker 1: I remember doing I did a satirical news show at

907
00:47:34,000 --> 00:47:35,960
Speaker 1: the Melbourne Comedy FIRSTIV a couple of years in it Rowan.

908
00:47:36,840 --> 00:47:38,480
Speaker 1: The idea was that would just take stories out of

909
00:47:38,480 --> 00:47:42,360
Speaker 1: the news and improvise news stories like it was a

910
00:47:42,400 --> 00:47:46,799
Speaker 1: pretend TV show and we didn't want about the The

911
00:47:46,880 --> 00:47:49,200
Speaker 1: day the Conversion for therapy thing went through and it

912
00:47:49,280 --> 00:47:54,080
Speaker 1: was like, hang on, what these children like? It just

913
00:47:54,400 --> 00:47:58,960
Speaker 1: absolutely blew my mind. When did you first understand what

914
00:47:59,080 --> 00:48:00,719
Speaker 1: conversion therapy was I was, and when to just start

915
00:48:00,719 --> 00:48:02,760
Speaker 1: to get an inkling that, ah, I think that's coming

916
00:48:02,760 --> 00:48:03,000
Speaker 1: for me.

917
00:48:03,840 --> 00:48:08,440
Speaker 2: Uh. At school, you'd hear stories. There'd be these other kids,

918
00:48:08,440 --> 00:48:12,719
Speaker 2: these other maybe you know, questionably flamboyant kids who just

919
00:48:12,760 --> 00:48:14,759
Speaker 2: would all of a sudden disappear. Maybe they were at

920
00:48:14,800 --> 00:48:17,000
Speaker 2: a different school now, or they were just gone for

921
00:48:17,080 --> 00:48:21,160
Speaker 2: a bit. And you know, my mum would love to

922
00:48:21,239 --> 00:48:23,960
Speaker 2: use example, She would love to sort of be critical

923
00:48:24,000 --> 00:48:26,919
Speaker 2: of others as a sort of a teaching mechanism for us,

924
00:48:28,480 --> 00:48:31,120
Speaker 2: and so she would talk quite freely about like, what

925
00:48:31,200 --> 00:48:33,160
Speaker 2: did you hear about so and So's child. Yeah, it

926
00:48:33,160 --> 00:48:35,960
Speaker 2: turns out he's decided that he's gay now, so you know,

927
00:48:36,000 --> 00:48:37,799
Speaker 2: they've just sent him off to this place to you know,

928
00:48:37,840 --> 00:48:40,359
Speaker 2: get fixed and stuff. But like, gosh, where did his

929
00:48:40,400 --> 00:48:42,640
Speaker 2: parents go wrong? You know, I just wonder like how

930
00:48:42,640 --> 00:48:44,399
Speaker 2: could they have dropped the ball like this? And you'd

931
00:48:44,440 --> 00:48:47,040
Speaker 2: hear those kinds of conversations, and I'd be there in

932
00:48:47,080 --> 00:48:49,400
Speaker 2: my mind kind of thinking like, oh, okay, well, I

933
00:48:49,400 --> 00:48:51,920
Speaker 2: definitely have hell waiting for me when I die, And

934
00:48:51,920 --> 00:48:53,799
Speaker 2: I know I'm getting punched in the face tomorrow when

935
00:48:53,840 --> 00:48:57,160
Speaker 2: I go back to school. But I really don't want

936
00:48:57,239 --> 00:48:59,280
Speaker 2: to be shipped off to some camp and have people

937
00:48:59,280 --> 00:49:01,680
Speaker 2: poking around him my brain. So I just that's why

938
00:49:01,680 --> 00:49:03,800
Speaker 2: I never came out. I just kept it to myself.

939
00:49:03,840 --> 00:49:07,880
Speaker 2: I didn't want anyone to know. When I did actually

940
00:49:07,880 --> 00:49:10,239
Speaker 2: get taken, it was sort of under false pretenses when

941
00:49:10,280 --> 00:49:11,520
Speaker 2: I was in my mid twenties.

942
00:49:11,640 --> 00:49:15,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, how does a grown man who has a career, Yeah,

943
00:49:15,800 --> 00:49:18,520
Speaker 1: that's going great. How does a grown man end up

944
00:49:19,120 --> 00:49:19,480
Speaker 1: doing that?

945
00:49:19,560 --> 00:49:21,880
Speaker 2: Yeah? It was literally right after I finished filming the

946
00:49:21,880 --> 00:49:24,040
Speaker 2: second season of Dance Academy. I'd already done X Men,

947
00:49:24,320 --> 00:49:26,759
Speaker 2: I'd done the first two seasons of Dance Academy, and

948
00:49:26,800 --> 00:49:30,080
Speaker 2: my mum was really ill, and we had a bit

949
00:49:30,120 --> 00:49:32,040
Speaker 2: of a family fight, which you know, was a high

950
00:49:32,040 --> 00:49:35,400
Speaker 2: stress situation at that time. My father was having an

951
00:49:35,440 --> 00:49:37,160
Speaker 2: affair as well, so this was a lot going on.

952
00:49:37,280 --> 00:49:39,160
Speaker 2: She was dying, he was, you know, off with my

953
00:49:39,200 --> 00:49:42,360
Speaker 2: godmother who was his mistress, and just a lot of stuff.

954
00:49:43,120 --> 00:49:48,200
Speaker 2: Classic Hills District, yeah, very yeah, no, classic good Catholic

955
00:49:48,280 --> 00:49:49,080
Speaker 2: family stuff.

956
00:49:49,400 --> 00:49:53,880
Speaker 3: Fucking it's the go with the hits man. Yeah, just

957
00:49:53,960 --> 00:49:56,120
Speaker 3: open with Hotel California. Then we can all go out home.

958
00:49:56,400 --> 00:49:57,279
Speaker 1: It don't make us right.

959
00:49:57,560 --> 00:49:59,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, so I forgot to tell everyone that The Bald

960
00:49:59,520 --> 00:50:04,279
Speaker 2: and Beautiful is actually based on my life. So yeah,

961
00:50:04,320 --> 00:50:05,960
Speaker 2: so we had this huge family fight, and with a

962
00:50:05,960 --> 00:50:07,919
Speaker 2: bit of misplaced aggression, I actually swore at my mum

963
00:50:07,960 --> 00:50:09,440
Speaker 2: and was a bit of a thing. You know. She

964
00:50:09,600 --> 00:50:11,840
Speaker 2: was on death Store and the next day she just

965
00:50:11,920 --> 00:50:13,279
Speaker 2: knocked on the door and she said, look, I don't

966
00:50:13,280 --> 00:50:17,759
Speaker 2: think you're dealing very well with my illness, so I've

967
00:50:17,760 --> 00:50:20,600
Speaker 2: made an appointment for you to see a therapist. And

968
00:50:20,640 --> 00:50:22,640
Speaker 2: I thought, oh, this is this is actually really good.

969
00:50:22,800 --> 00:50:25,759
Speaker 2: I need this. I'm stressed out, I'm not sleeping. There's

970
00:50:25,800 --> 00:50:27,480
Speaker 2: so much that I want to talk about. This will

971
00:50:27,480 --> 00:50:30,839
Speaker 2: be really good for me. So we go down and

972
00:50:30,840 --> 00:50:32,560
Speaker 2: then I just I noticed when we got into the

973
00:50:32,560 --> 00:50:35,239
Speaker 2: office there was just a lot of religious paraphernalia in there,

974
00:50:35,680 --> 00:50:39,360
Speaker 2: you know, iconography, statues, paintings, that kind of thing. And

975
00:50:39,440 --> 00:50:41,080
Speaker 2: then she went in and sat and had a session

976
00:50:41,120 --> 00:50:44,600
Speaker 2: with him first, and then I get in there and.

977
00:50:44,360 --> 00:50:47,160
Speaker 1: He was it like in a strip mall. Does it

978
00:50:47,239 --> 00:50:48,160
Speaker 1: have a sign out the front.

979
00:50:48,440 --> 00:50:50,919
Speaker 2: It was just like in a just a very nondescript

980
00:50:50,920 --> 00:50:53,640
Speaker 2: office building. But I did notice that the sign under

981
00:50:53,640 --> 00:50:57,600
Speaker 2: his name, it said Catholic psychologist, and I just thought, oh,

982
00:50:57,760 --> 00:51:01,680
Speaker 2: do psychologists have religious and nations? And don't really think

983
00:51:01,680 --> 00:51:03,560
Speaker 2: that they do. But okay, So that was sort of

984
00:51:03,600 --> 00:51:06,240
Speaker 2: when the first little sort of like pit sort of happened.

985
00:51:06,239 --> 00:51:09,360
Speaker 2: I thought like, who am I really seeing here? And

986
00:51:09,400 --> 00:51:11,600
Speaker 2: then when I did walk into his office and sat down,

987
00:51:12,280 --> 00:51:15,600
Speaker 2: he just didn't wasn't all that interested in what I

988
00:51:15,640 --> 00:51:19,120
Speaker 2: had to say. He just kept talking about how he

989
00:51:19,160 --> 00:51:22,279
Speaker 2: specialized in hypnotherapy and how he'd be able to put

990
00:51:22,280 --> 00:51:25,440
Speaker 2: me under and help me with like addictions to like

991
00:51:25,480 --> 00:51:32,759
Speaker 2: cigarettes or alcohol or yeah, gayness, And I was just like, okay, well,

992
00:51:32,760 --> 00:51:35,839
Speaker 2: I'm not a smoker or a drinker. I haven't brought

993
00:51:35,920 --> 00:51:38,400
Speaker 2: up the fact that I'm gay to him. Yes, But

994
00:51:38,440 --> 00:51:40,640
Speaker 2: he also just said to me, he's like, oh, I

995
00:51:40,719 --> 00:51:43,200
Speaker 2: know the school that you went to. I'm also a

996
00:51:43,239 --> 00:51:45,840
Speaker 2: member of Opustay. And I was just like, Wow, I

997
00:51:45,920 --> 00:51:48,360
Speaker 2: left school eight years ago and I'm right back in

998
00:51:48,400 --> 00:51:51,160
Speaker 2: the clutches right now. And this person, where I know

999
00:51:51,239 --> 00:51:53,760
Speaker 2: exactly what his biases are and where he's coming from,

1000
00:51:54,200 --> 00:51:59,160
Speaker 2: he wants to put me under to be like completely

1001
00:51:59,280 --> 00:52:03,040
Speaker 2: vulnerable to his influence in my brain. And I was

1002
00:52:03,080 --> 00:52:04,880
Speaker 2: just like no, no, no, no, no, We're not going

1003
00:52:04,960 --> 00:52:07,319
Speaker 2: to do this. So I just you know, I mean

1004
00:52:07,360 --> 00:52:12,040
Speaker 2: I pretended and I just sort of sat there and acting. Yeah.

1005
00:52:12,120 --> 00:52:15,080
Speaker 2: Literally I just was like okay, sat there and just

1006
00:52:15,239 --> 00:52:16,680
Speaker 2: you know, pretended to do what he was doing. But

1007
00:52:16,719 --> 00:52:18,600
Speaker 2: literally it was just like doing a shopping list in

1008
00:52:18,640 --> 00:52:20,360
Speaker 2: my head, like Okay, so I need to bring a

1009
00:52:20,400 --> 00:52:22,520
Speaker 2: new protein powder, I need to do this, just like

1010
00:52:22,640 --> 00:52:25,000
Speaker 2: drive out what he was saying, and then what kind

1011
00:52:25,000 --> 00:52:27,400
Speaker 2: of should was he thought? So well, he was definitely

1012
00:52:27,440 --> 00:52:29,480
Speaker 2: trying to do the hypno stuff. So it was you know,

1013
00:52:29,600 --> 00:52:32,520
Speaker 2: like picture a beach, what color is the sad, what

1014
00:52:32,640 --> 00:52:34,839
Speaker 2: color is the trees? What? You know? He played new

1015
00:52:35,000 --> 00:52:38,960
Speaker 2: like beach sounds in the background, and then he was

1016
00:52:39,000 --> 00:52:41,880
Speaker 2: like just talking about like letting everything go. And then

1017
00:52:41,920 --> 00:52:43,520
Speaker 2: he would, you know, bring up stuff like you know,

1018
00:52:43,640 --> 00:52:46,960
Speaker 2: you know God loves you, and every time that we're tested,

1019
00:52:47,120 --> 00:52:49,360
Speaker 2: you know, that's an opportunity to get closer to God,

1020
00:52:49,480 --> 00:52:53,480
Speaker 2: and there is such joy in being able to overcome

1021
00:52:53,560 --> 00:52:56,960
Speaker 2: the temptations of Satan. Things like that, and I just thought, well,

1022
00:52:57,000 --> 00:53:02,640
Speaker 2: this doesn't feel very like school psychology to me, doesn't

1023
00:53:02,640 --> 00:53:05,120
Speaker 2: feel unbiased, doesn't feel like someone that I can actually

1024
00:53:05,160 --> 00:53:09,319
Speaker 2: open up and be completely honest with. But also, I

1025
00:53:09,360 --> 00:53:12,240
Speaker 2: mean in the book, I call it psychological rape, because

1026
00:53:12,239 --> 00:53:18,360
Speaker 2: that's what it is. You're basically being artificial, artificially duped

1027
00:53:18,800 --> 00:53:24,439
Speaker 2: into a state of vulnerability, see essentially roofed. And then you're, yeah,

1028
00:53:24,560 --> 00:53:28,800
Speaker 2: just vulnerable for someone to penetrate your mind against your wishes.

1029
00:53:29,760 --> 00:53:34,719
Speaker 1: And you're an adult. Yeah, and you mentioned earlier, did

1030
00:53:34,719 --> 00:53:37,480
Speaker 1: you hear what happened with science as child? This person

1031
00:53:38,680 --> 00:53:44,200
Speaker 1: possibly like they're with kids man ten twelve younger, yeap

1032
00:53:44,280 --> 00:53:48,160
Speaker 1: and doing this Yeah, and it was and there's completely

1033
00:53:48,320 --> 00:53:49,560
Speaker 1: well and completely fine.

1034
00:53:49,600 --> 00:53:52,640
Speaker 2: Absolutely yeah. And then like online forums and stuff. You know,

1035
00:53:52,719 --> 00:53:55,560
Speaker 2: after that experience that I had, I kept going on

1036
00:53:55,719 --> 00:53:58,480
Speaker 2: with it for a little bit. You know, my mum

1037
00:53:58,560 --> 00:53:59,960
Speaker 2: was sick and it was just something she wanted to do,

1038
00:54:00,160 --> 00:54:02,000
Speaker 2: so I was like, whatever, I'll just go and keep attending.

1039
00:54:02,040 --> 00:54:03,360
Speaker 2: You know, she was paying for it, so I was like,

1040
00:54:03,320 --> 00:54:05,520
Speaker 2: all right, it's her money. I'll let her waste it

1041
00:54:05,560 --> 00:54:07,399
Speaker 2: if she wants to. And then when she did pass

1042
00:54:07,400 --> 00:54:09,040
Speaker 2: away a couple of months later, I'd was like, all right,

1043
00:54:09,280 --> 00:54:11,960
Speaker 2: I'm done with that now. And then a few years

1044
00:54:12,000 --> 00:54:16,160
Speaker 2: later I had my first relationship and it was horrendous.

1045
00:54:16,880 --> 00:54:19,040
Speaker 2: And after that I had reached out to my sister

1046
00:54:19,200 --> 00:54:21,560
Speaker 2: just to you know, you go through a bad breakup,

1047
00:54:21,600 --> 00:54:24,320
Speaker 2: you just you want a shoulder to cry on. And

1048
00:54:24,360 --> 00:54:26,279
Speaker 2: the response was like, well, you know, you just you

1049
00:54:26,280 --> 00:54:28,640
Speaker 2: shouldn't be gay, Like this is punishment, like you shouldn't

1050
00:54:28,640 --> 00:54:31,080
Speaker 2: be gay. And then she was sending me links to

1051
00:54:31,200 --> 00:54:36,200
Speaker 2: these conversion therapy camps, like men's groups, which had online

1052
00:54:36,239 --> 00:54:38,560
Speaker 2: forums as well, but also meetups and stuff with the

1053
00:54:38,600 --> 00:54:42,720
Speaker 2: idea of like them retraining their brain into not being

1054
00:54:42,960 --> 00:54:47,200
Speaker 2: gay anymore. So that's just to me.

1055
00:54:47,160 --> 00:54:49,200
Speaker 1: Like the whole setup of like when we started doing

1056
00:54:49,239 --> 00:54:51,080
Speaker 1: this show, The Bachelor, people, how come there is any

1057
00:54:51,080 --> 00:54:54,880
Speaker 1: gay actual I was like, well, think of what happens

1058
00:54:54,920 --> 00:54:55,799
Speaker 1: in the mansion.

1059
00:54:55,520 --> 00:54:58,400
Speaker 2: Mate, I think a lot of people would tune in.

1060
00:54:59,120 --> 00:55:01,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, but it's not like, oh, we're all going to

1061
00:55:01,920 --> 00:55:03,879
Speaker 1: go to camp. Yep, I'll come back.

1062
00:55:04,600 --> 00:55:10,239
Speaker 2: Well yeah, absolutely, yeah, it's called camp. Yes, maybe might

1063
00:55:10,239 --> 00:55:13,440
Speaker 2: be able to meet someone. I mean, you know that

1064
00:55:13,640 --> 00:55:16,200
Speaker 2: that was something that was just always held haled over

1065
00:55:16,200 --> 00:55:19,760
Speaker 2: my head while I was growing up, and thankfully because

1066
00:55:19,760 --> 00:55:22,040
Speaker 2: I sort of didn't say anything, I wasn't exposed to it.

1067
00:55:22,120 --> 00:55:25,480
Speaker 2: When I was even more vulnerable. I think the fact

1068
00:55:25,480 --> 00:55:29,160
Speaker 2: that I was still exposed to it in my twenties

1069
00:55:29,160 --> 00:55:33,400
Speaker 2: shows just kind of the psychological damage that can happen

1070
00:55:33,440 --> 00:55:36,600
Speaker 2: to someone that can keep them, even in their mid twenties,

1071
00:55:36,680 --> 00:55:40,719
Speaker 2: feeling so helpless against that kind of a thing. So

1072
00:55:41,239 --> 00:55:43,720
Speaker 2: my heart bleeds for the younger people. And that's exactly

1073
00:55:43,760 --> 00:55:47,000
Speaker 2: why when Equality Australia reached out and asked me to

1074
00:55:47,040 --> 00:55:49,239
Speaker 2: share my story and be part of their campaign to

1075
00:55:49,280 --> 00:55:54,160
Speaker 2: have it made illegal in this state, I absolutely said yes,

1076
00:55:54,239 --> 00:55:57,040
Speaker 2: because it's not just something I'm passionate about it. It

1077
00:55:57,080 --> 00:56:00,279
Speaker 2: feels like a responsibility because I'm able to talk about

1078
00:56:00,320 --> 00:56:03,760
Speaker 2: it and I'm able to really get across the need

1079
00:56:03,880 --> 00:56:08,880
Speaker 2: for it to be illegal. And you know, it's a

1080
00:56:08,880 --> 00:56:10,680
Speaker 2: proud moment to be able to say, like, you know,

1081
00:56:10,920 --> 00:56:13,959
Speaker 2: that has happened now. So I was able to turn

1082
00:56:14,040 --> 00:56:16,040
Speaker 2: that sort of negative part of my life into something

1083
00:56:16,080 --> 00:56:19,720
Speaker 2: positive for others, so that other young children no longer

1084
00:56:19,800 --> 00:56:22,160
Speaker 2: have to worry the way that I worried when I

1085
00:56:22,200 --> 00:56:25,960
Speaker 2: was younger, that that could happen if I dared in

1086
00:56:25,960 --> 00:56:26,880
Speaker 2: my Catholic faith.

1087
00:56:27,040 --> 00:56:32,640
Speaker 1: To be honest, we need to play some commercials. Yeah,

1088
00:56:32,960 --> 00:56:44,600
Speaker 1: back with Tim Pocock in just a second. The idea

1089
00:56:44,640 --> 00:56:50,480
Speaker 1: that that conversion therapy is no longer there is wonderful,

1090
00:56:50,880 --> 00:56:53,319
Speaker 1: but it's it doesn't mean that, you know, we're out

1091
00:56:53,360 --> 00:56:53,920
Speaker 1: of the woods.

1092
00:56:54,200 --> 00:56:54,839
Speaker 2: Absolutely not.

1093
00:56:54,880 --> 00:56:58,360
Speaker 1: No, the persecution and guilt and all kinds of twisting

1094
00:56:58,400 --> 00:57:03,400
Speaker 1: of kid's head are still happening. What are your thoughts

1095
00:57:03,480 --> 00:57:07,600
Speaker 1: about the privileges that are extended to these schools in

1096
00:57:07,600 --> 00:57:11,359
Speaker 1: our community around things like tax and influence upon the community.

1097
00:57:11,480 --> 00:57:14,520
Speaker 2: When you do think about the fact that these are

1098
00:57:14,760 --> 00:57:19,560
Speaker 2: institutions that do get tax offsets and do get government funding,

1099
00:57:21,440 --> 00:57:24,720
Speaker 2: that is a worry because from my perspective, I did

1100
00:57:24,720 --> 00:57:28,880
Speaker 2: not receive an adequate education there because it was so

1101
00:57:29,080 --> 00:57:32,920
Speaker 2: filtered by the religion. Whole chapters of textbooks were removed

1102
00:57:33,360 --> 00:57:35,680
Speaker 2: or blacked out. I remember that.

1103
00:57:35,720 --> 00:57:38,160
Speaker 1: I don't remember that things getting photo they would photo

1104
00:57:38,160 --> 00:57:40,160
Speaker 1: copy them. They've got a glue stick or something, Yeah,

1105
00:57:40,280 --> 00:57:42,720
Speaker 1: sticking over bits in the biole textbook.

1106
00:57:43,000 --> 00:57:46,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, nineteen ninety absolutely, yeah, yeah, And that was you know,

1107
00:57:46,920 --> 00:57:49,080
Speaker 2: I was like it was in the nineties and you know,

1108
00:57:49,440 --> 00:57:51,880
Speaker 2: early two thousands for me as well. And yeah, we'd

1109
00:57:51,880 --> 00:57:53,880
Speaker 2: go and pick up our textbooks at school because they

1110
00:57:53,880 --> 00:57:54,480
Speaker 2: would order.

1111
00:57:54,320 --> 00:57:56,360
Speaker 1: Them for Yes, I remember that too.

1112
00:57:56,520 --> 00:57:58,320
Speaker 2: You'd go out and pick up your box filled with

1113
00:57:58,360 --> 00:58:00,520
Speaker 2: your books and they'd just be you know, the science

1114
00:58:00,560 --> 00:58:04,000
Speaker 2: chat textbook, which is the whole section about evolution or

1115
00:58:04,080 --> 00:58:07,880
Speaker 2: reproduction gone just not there. And if you know, a

1116
00:58:08,360 --> 00:58:10,520
Speaker 2: kid was sneaky and tried to ask a question, there'd

1117
00:58:10,600 --> 00:58:15,760
Speaker 2: be a detention and whatnot. And you know, to that point,

1118
00:58:15,880 --> 00:58:19,840
Speaker 2: when I'm old enough that the school certificate was still

1119
00:58:19,880 --> 00:58:23,040
Speaker 2: a thing when you're in year ten, And when we

1120
00:58:23,160 --> 00:58:27,720
Speaker 2: sat for the science exam, our principal, who was a

1121
00:58:28,080 --> 00:58:31,040
Speaker 2: celibrate Oprah State Humory, he came down to the classroom

1122
00:58:31,080 --> 00:58:34,160
Speaker 2: ahead of us sitting the science exam and said, now, look,

1123
00:58:34,720 --> 00:58:38,320
Speaker 2: there is going to be a section in there about reproduction.

1124
00:58:39,800 --> 00:58:42,600
Speaker 2: Obviously we know we haven't taught you this stuff, but

1125
00:58:42,680 --> 00:58:45,280
Speaker 2: you guys don't need to worry because it's only five

1126
00:58:45,320 --> 00:58:48,160
Speaker 2: percent of the whole paper. So you guys can still

1127
00:58:48,160 --> 00:58:50,120
Speaker 2: easily get banned six you can still get ninety five

1128
00:58:50,160 --> 00:58:52,680
Speaker 2: percent by leaving that bit empty. But hey, you know what,

1129
00:58:52,760 --> 00:58:54,560
Speaker 2: if you guys know any of the answers, go for it,

1130
00:58:54,880 --> 00:58:59,840
Speaker 2: knock your socks off. And I mean, that's just plainly irresponsible.

1131
00:58:59,880 --> 00:59:01,880
Speaker 2: And this is something that you know as you say,

1132
00:59:01,920 --> 00:59:04,440
Speaker 2: this is some a place that is getting government funding

1133
00:59:04,480 --> 00:59:08,240
Speaker 2: and that is getting tax breaks and stuff. So that's

1134
00:59:08,320 --> 00:59:12,400
Speaker 2: just irresponsibility. And it also just means like why is

1135
00:59:12,680 --> 00:59:14,200
Speaker 2: this place getting this this money?

1136
00:59:14,280 --> 00:59:17,840
Speaker 1: But you're pumping out people who've got high stakes jobs

1137
00:59:17,920 --> 00:59:22,080
Speaker 1: in public office who do not have an education in

1138
00:59:22,160 --> 00:59:26,600
Speaker 1: critical thought. Yeah that's not okay, it's not. No, that's

1139
00:59:26,320 --> 00:59:30,040
Speaker 1: in a role of responsibility that millions and millions of

1140
00:59:30,040 --> 00:59:33,640
Speaker 1: people rely on. Just have someone thinking clearly and assessing data.

1141
00:59:34,240 --> 00:59:37,959
Speaker 1: You haven't ever learned how to question or go maybe

1142
00:59:37,960 --> 00:59:40,000
Speaker 1: I haven't got maybe whatt this one wrong? Yeah? What else?

1143
00:59:40,160 --> 00:59:41,480
Speaker 1: What's what's your idea over there?

1144
00:59:41,520 --> 00:59:41,640
Speaker 2: No?

1145
00:59:41,520 --> 00:59:43,640
Speaker 1: No, no, There's only one absolute truth and that's what

1146
00:59:43,640 --> 00:59:45,840
Speaker 1: it is, and we never questioned it. That's not a

1147
00:59:45,880 --> 00:59:47,680
Speaker 1: great way to take public officer.

1148
00:59:47,760 --> 00:59:49,600
Speaker 2: We're giving them the keys of the kingdom. They can

1149
00:59:49,640 --> 00:59:54,480
Speaker 2: make choices on behalf of the masses based on that

1150
00:59:54,520 --> 00:59:56,920
Speaker 2: inability to think outside of their own belief system.

1151
00:59:57,440 --> 00:59:59,560
Speaker 1: When I tell a story a bit, but when I

1152
00:59:59,640 --> 01:00:01,800
Speaker 1: first got gone, I first got diagnosed, I was like,

1153
01:00:01,840 --> 01:00:03,360
Speaker 1: oh my god, what he goes? Well, what do you

1154
01:00:03,360 --> 01:00:05,040
Speaker 1: think you've got the career of God? Of course you've

1155
01:00:05,080 --> 01:00:06,919
Speaker 1: got the career of God because of the brain you've got.

1156
01:00:07,840 --> 01:00:10,600
Speaker 1: There's no question that the drive that you had within

1157
01:00:10,680 --> 01:00:17,040
Speaker 1: you to be you drove the work ethic because you

1158
01:00:17,120 --> 01:00:20,000
Speaker 1: worked stupid hard, you know, I guess you know. Every

1159
01:00:20,080 --> 01:00:22,600
Speaker 1: hour you were pulling at the the cinema was an

1160
01:00:22,640 --> 01:00:25,840
Speaker 1: hours that you were at home or looking at people

1161
01:00:25,840 --> 01:00:28,439
Speaker 1: wearing different clothes and being out there. There's a question

1162
01:00:28,480 --> 01:00:30,280
Speaker 1: that you got where you are because you worked your a.

1163
01:00:30,600 --> 01:00:33,200
Speaker 1: You worked your ass off, and that's a part of

1164
01:00:33,240 --> 01:00:35,800
Speaker 1: that was a drive away from.

1165
01:00:35,640 --> 01:00:38,760
Speaker 2: This surely, absolutely, yeah, for sure. I just I think

1166
01:00:39,080 --> 01:00:42,280
Speaker 2: to live is to be curious, and I just saw

1167
01:00:42,320 --> 01:00:44,840
Speaker 2: such a lack of curiosity in the world that I

1168
01:00:45,000 --> 01:00:51,240
Speaker 2: was in. It was almost like life was a burden

1169
01:00:51,440 --> 01:00:55,160
Speaker 2: that had been thrust upon people and the only way

1170
01:00:55,160 --> 01:00:57,280
Speaker 2: to really get through it and the only purpose for

1171
01:00:57,320 --> 01:00:59,120
Speaker 2: it was to get to heaven at the end of it.

1172
01:00:59,600 --> 01:01:02,520
Speaker 2: So it honestly would be better to just change yourself

1173
01:01:02,560 --> 01:01:05,800
Speaker 2: in a basement somewhere so that you're never surrounded by

1174
01:01:05,800 --> 01:01:08,920
Speaker 2: anything else and just literally live in that situation so

1175
01:01:08,960 --> 01:01:12,440
Speaker 2: you can be completely pure and blameless. But I just thought, well, no,

1176
01:01:12,680 --> 01:01:14,760
Speaker 2: like if God just wanted us to be in heaven,

1177
01:01:14,920 --> 01:01:17,000
Speaker 2: then we'd just be in heaven. There's a reason why

1178
01:01:17,080 --> 01:01:19,840
Speaker 2: we have this earthly plane, and I think that the

1179
01:01:19,960 --> 01:01:24,760
Speaker 2: existence is there for us to explore to learn, because

1180
01:01:25,080 --> 01:01:28,720
Speaker 2: by me not meeting you and knowing you, then I'm

1181
01:01:28,760 --> 01:01:31,280
Speaker 2: cut off from part of God's creation. Yeah, to live

1182
01:01:31,320 --> 01:01:35,880
Speaker 2: is to be curious. And I was totally prepared to be,

1183
01:01:36,040 --> 01:01:38,960
Speaker 2: you know, mister devout Catholic until my dying day and

1184
01:01:39,280 --> 01:01:42,720
Speaker 2: never act on homosexually. Yeah, I was perfectly ready to

1185
01:01:42,760 --> 01:01:47,960
Speaker 2: do that. I didn't necessarily believe that it was right,

1186
01:01:48,120 --> 01:01:49,800
Speaker 2: but I thought, if that's what I'm being told and

1187
01:01:49,840 --> 01:01:52,080
Speaker 2: I don't want to go to Hell, then I'll make

1188
01:01:52,120 --> 01:01:56,960
Speaker 2: that sacrifice. But I don't think that it's wrong to

1189
01:01:57,600 --> 01:02:01,240
Speaker 2: actually experience the world and to meet people from other

1190
01:02:01,280 --> 01:02:05,440
Speaker 2: cultures and see other places in the world and expand

1191
01:02:05,600 --> 01:02:08,680
Speaker 2: my thinking and my understanding of things. And in so

1192
01:02:08,880 --> 01:02:12,680
Speaker 2: doing I started to realize just how little I did know,

1193
01:02:13,280 --> 01:02:16,520
Speaker 2: and how many things had been ingrained in me that

1194
01:02:16,640 --> 01:02:19,560
Speaker 2: I didn't actually really believe. I just thought I did.

1195
01:02:20,760 --> 01:02:22,840
Speaker 2: You know, I used to be very critical of the

1196
01:02:22,840 --> 01:02:26,720
Speaker 2: way people dressed, like because that was just what I

1197
01:02:26,840 --> 01:02:28,480
Speaker 2: was used to, because there was, you know, a certain

1198
01:02:28,520 --> 01:02:32,160
Speaker 2: way to dress and whatever, and you know, literally be like, oh,

1199
01:02:32,200 --> 01:02:34,480
Speaker 2: she looks like a slut, and I wouldn't even think

1200
01:02:34,640 --> 01:02:37,240
Speaker 2: anything of it, because that was that's how my mum talked.

1201
01:02:37,560 --> 01:02:39,040
Speaker 2: She'd be like, oh, look at that. Look at that

1202
01:02:39,120 --> 01:02:41,440
Speaker 2: slutty girl over there. Her mum must be so ashamed

1203
01:02:41,480 --> 01:02:43,280
Speaker 2: of her. And then you know, she'd turn to my

1204
01:02:43,280 --> 01:02:44,960
Speaker 2: sister and be like, you're not going to dress like that.

1205
01:02:45,080 --> 01:02:47,840
Speaker 2: So it's just sort of that thing, and you just

1206
01:02:47,840 --> 01:02:50,520
Speaker 2: get so used to it and you don't necessarily understand

1207
01:02:50,600 --> 01:02:54,680
Speaker 2: that the language is not okay. And in fact, I

1208
01:02:54,800 --> 01:02:57,480
Speaker 2: ended up I was shooting a TV series, an American

1209
01:02:57,520 --> 01:03:01,720
Speaker 2: TV series, and this was right when I was on

1210
01:03:01,760 --> 01:03:04,720
Speaker 2: the cusp of coming out. I just had my first

1211
01:03:04,760 --> 01:03:07,120
Speaker 2: experience with a guy. I was still very in my

1212
01:03:07,160 --> 01:03:12,360
Speaker 2: head about it. The industry, though it says it's super progressive,

1213
01:03:12,440 --> 01:03:14,840
Speaker 2: it was also very much like, you know, well, if

1214
01:03:14,840 --> 01:03:16,720
Speaker 2: you're gay, you're not going to get cast in certain roles,

1215
01:03:16,760 --> 01:03:19,520
Speaker 2: so better not come out ever, so a little bit

1216
01:03:19,600 --> 01:03:21,800
Speaker 2: like being back in a similar kind of cage there.

1217
01:03:22,000 --> 01:03:23,600
Speaker 2: And I just kissed a guy, and I was like

1218
01:03:23,680 --> 01:03:25,800
Speaker 2: actually coming out for the first time, and very worried

1219
01:03:25,800 --> 01:03:27,680
Speaker 2: and in my head about it, and then I had

1220
01:03:27,760 --> 01:03:29,240
Speaker 2: a little bit of a disagreement with one of my

1221
01:03:29,280 --> 01:03:32,280
Speaker 2: co stars. I was on the phone to my sister

1222
01:03:32,360 --> 01:03:33,880
Speaker 2: and I was just like, oh, I don't know, she's

1223
01:03:33,840 --> 01:03:38,600
Speaker 2: just off being a slut somewhere, and the coast overheard

1224
01:03:38,640 --> 01:03:41,920
Speaker 2: me say that and completely took me to task. We

1225
01:03:41,960 --> 01:03:45,640
Speaker 2: had a huge row. We've been friends for four or

1226
01:03:45,680 --> 01:03:50,240
Speaker 2: five years at that point, and I was so devastated

1227
01:03:50,280 --> 01:03:54,200
Speaker 2: that I'd hurt her feelings, but I kept trying to

1228
01:03:55,520 --> 01:03:58,600
Speaker 2: excuse myself, and it was really the first time that

1229
01:03:58,720 --> 01:04:02,160
Speaker 2: something like that had even still like I was twenty

1230
01:04:02,680 --> 01:04:06,760
Speaker 2: seven at that point, I was still like, oh oh,

1231
01:04:07,000 --> 01:04:10,040
Speaker 2: it made me really think so many different things about

1232
01:04:10,040 --> 01:04:14,520
Speaker 2: how I think, how I speak, what opinions do I have,

1233
01:04:15,080 --> 01:04:18,120
Speaker 2: just because I was sexually repressed and never had the

1234
01:04:18,160 --> 01:04:21,240
Speaker 2: freedom to go off and do that. Then you know,

1235
01:04:21,800 --> 01:04:24,240
Speaker 2: you know, only a few short months later I was

1236
01:04:25,040 --> 01:04:26,720
Speaker 2: emulating her behavior and loving it.

1237
01:04:26,760 --> 01:04:33,880
Speaker 1: So there's but you're absolutely right there, there's a reason

1238
01:04:33,920 --> 01:04:40,280
Speaker 1: that rumors fly about certain leading men because even though

1239
01:04:40,280 --> 01:04:44,800
Speaker 1: we know they're playing pretenzies on screen, yet we're yet

1240
01:04:44,840 --> 01:04:49,120
Speaker 1: to have a real big action star kidding ass and

1241
01:04:49,160 --> 01:04:52,640
Speaker 1: taken names that we also know lives with a dude

1242
01:04:52,720 --> 01:04:55,320
Speaker 1: and has kids. Yeah, we yet to have that. Yeah

1243
01:04:55,360 --> 01:04:56,880
Speaker 1: still in twenty twenty five.

1244
01:04:58,720 --> 01:05:01,200
Speaker 2: I think the closest we've had is like Ezra Miller,

1245
01:05:01,280 --> 01:05:04,520
Speaker 2: but then they turned out to be quite problematic, so

1246
01:05:04,760 --> 01:05:08,280
Speaker 2: not really someone that we can fly the flag high on.

1247
01:05:09,240 --> 01:05:11,040
Speaker 1: I was packing, was packing on a lot of muscle,

1248
01:05:11,480 --> 01:05:13,080
Speaker 1: A bit of a question, a bit of an answer

1249
01:05:13,120 --> 01:05:15,960
Speaker 1: to some of those those questions a.

1250
01:05:15,880 --> 01:05:19,280
Speaker 2: Little bit because I sort of agree, like, I think

1251
01:05:19,320 --> 01:05:21,960
Speaker 2: that moving beyond stereotype.

1252
01:05:22,720 --> 01:05:24,200
Speaker 1: I wish I had photos like that when I was younger.

1253
01:05:24,240 --> 01:05:26,600
Speaker 1: You're fucking great. How much work it took to get

1254
01:05:26,600 --> 01:05:26,919
Speaker 1: that big.

1255
01:05:27,040 --> 01:05:29,840
Speaker 2: I wish I was currently in that state as well.

1256
01:05:29,920 --> 01:05:31,680
Speaker 2: I've got a film coming out later this year, and

1257
01:05:31,720 --> 01:05:33,400
Speaker 2: I was in the best shape of my life for it,

1258
01:05:33,680 --> 01:05:35,600
Speaker 2: and then I took on this book right afterwards, and

1259
01:05:35,640 --> 01:05:38,720
Speaker 2: then the stress of it all, like lost all my hair, corters,

1260
01:05:38,720 --> 01:05:42,000
Speaker 2: old belly started happening, developed a bit of an autoimmune issue.

1261
01:05:42,040 --> 01:05:43,959
Speaker 2: So just kind of dealing with all of that now.

1262
01:05:44,360 --> 01:05:46,640
Speaker 2: And you know, the director of my new film keeps

1263
01:05:46,680 --> 01:05:48,840
Speaker 2: sending me stills and like trailers and stuff where I

1264
01:05:48,840 --> 01:05:51,040
Speaker 2: see myself looking all jacked, and I'm like, oh, I

1265
01:05:51,120 --> 01:05:52,440
Speaker 2: just don't want to be that guy again.

1266
01:05:53,640 --> 01:05:57,040
Speaker 1: Your muscle thankfully were back, and your muscles know how

1267
01:05:57,080 --> 01:05:57,360
Speaker 1: to do it.

1268
01:05:57,400 --> 01:05:59,240
Speaker 2: You also know how to absolutely and you know it's

1269
01:05:59,280 --> 01:06:01,400
Speaker 2: now being taken of all that stuff, so like I

1270
01:06:01,400 --> 01:06:04,040
Speaker 2: can bounce back to it. But yeah, I definitely did

1271
01:06:04,120 --> 01:06:06,400
Speaker 2: want to get away from the stereotype of, you know,

1272
01:06:06,760 --> 01:06:10,040
Speaker 2: growing up, the representation that I knew was Will and

1273
01:06:10,080 --> 01:06:12,760
Speaker 2: Grace and the characters on that you know We're you know,

1274
01:06:12,800 --> 01:06:15,320
Speaker 2: they were they were a stereotype of what a gay

1275
01:06:15,360 --> 01:06:18,040
Speaker 2: man is. But also I was absolutely not allowed to

1276
01:06:18,080 --> 01:06:20,480
Speaker 2: watch something like that because that was just part of

1277
01:06:20,560 --> 01:06:22,840
Speaker 2: the gay agenda to you know, try and force it

1278
01:06:22,880 --> 01:06:28,200
Speaker 2: down our throats by having one TV show. Sure so,

1279
01:06:29,440 --> 01:06:32,640
Speaker 2: and even still to this day, I think when because

1280
01:06:32,680 --> 01:06:36,320
Speaker 2: because the industry, you know, I don't want to you know,

1281
01:06:37,280 --> 01:06:42,800
Speaker 2: shoot the hand that's feeding me. But the industry when

1282
01:06:42,840 --> 01:06:46,520
Speaker 2: it does do things that are sort of queer related,

1283
01:06:46,920 --> 01:06:49,880
Speaker 2: I think they are trying to tick boxes. I think

1284
01:06:49,880 --> 01:06:52,680
Speaker 2: there's still a lot of tokenism in that world. And

1285
01:06:52,720 --> 01:06:55,120
Speaker 2: it's not so much that they are making things a

1286
01:06:55,160 --> 01:06:56,800
Speaker 2: lot of them. There are some that are great, but

1287
01:06:56,840 --> 01:06:58,720
Speaker 2: I think a lot of things they'll make things where

1288
01:06:58,800 --> 01:07:03,680
Speaker 2: they'll include so characters, not because they particularly want to

1289
01:07:03,760 --> 01:07:06,960
Speaker 2: have good representation, but because they go, oh, that is

1290
01:07:07,000 --> 01:07:10,680
Speaker 2: a box that we need to tick. And you know,

1291
01:07:10,760 --> 01:07:13,560
Speaker 2: I would love to see, you know, like just an

1292
01:07:13,600 --> 01:07:16,680
Speaker 2: old school rom com that happens to be two dudes

1293
01:07:17,240 --> 01:07:19,840
Speaker 2: and doesn't need to necessarily be about any of the

1294
01:07:19,960 --> 01:07:23,040
Speaker 2: former SOB stories because if we all know, read my

1295
01:07:23,040 --> 01:07:24,400
Speaker 2: book for that. But like, if we're going to go

1296
01:07:24,440 --> 01:07:26,120
Speaker 2: to the movies to watch a rom com, let's watch

1297
01:07:26,120 --> 01:07:28,600
Speaker 2: something that's maybe got a little bit more of the giggles.

1298
01:07:29,720 --> 01:07:33,560
Speaker 2: And yeah, the same with say like action stars and stuff.

1299
01:07:34,600 --> 01:07:36,720
Speaker 2: You know, I had an agent that would always say

1300
01:07:36,720 --> 01:07:38,320
Speaker 2: to me when he found out that I was gay,

1301
01:07:38,320 --> 01:07:42,480
Speaker 2: he got very upset with me because he felt that,

1302
01:07:42,560 --> 01:07:44,040
Speaker 2: you know, I had been lying to him. And I

1303
01:07:44,080 --> 01:07:45,640
Speaker 2: was like, well, no, dude, actually has nothing to do

1304
01:07:45,680 --> 01:07:47,720
Speaker 2: with you, but okay, but he just said, you know,

1305
01:07:47,720 --> 01:07:49,320
Speaker 2: you've got to keep this under wraps. We need to

1306
01:07:49,320 --> 01:07:52,400
Speaker 2: strategize this because if people find out, you'll never play

1307
01:07:52,400 --> 01:07:56,320
Speaker 2: a leading man and you'll never play a superhero. And

1308
01:07:56,360 --> 01:07:58,480
Speaker 2: I was like, well, psych, I've already done both, so

1309
01:08:00,080 --> 01:08:00,640
Speaker 2: been out.

1310
01:08:04,680 --> 01:08:07,920
Speaker 1: There. Yeah, there's the token episode or the token character.

1311
01:08:09,000 --> 01:08:11,080
Speaker 1: And then there's episode four of the Last of Us

1312
01:08:11,120 --> 01:08:13,920
Speaker 1: season one, which is if you have I want to

1313
01:08:13,920 --> 01:08:17,240
Speaker 1: do anything, it's a film in itself. You don't even know,

1314
01:08:17,479 --> 01:08:21,120
Speaker 1: don't even have to watch the rest of the series. Absolutely,

1315
01:08:21,160 --> 01:08:25,240
Speaker 1: I'll go to just thinking, Yeah, so staggeringly beautifully done

1316
01:08:25,760 --> 01:08:29,799
Speaker 1: and wonderfully cast and Nick.

1317
01:08:29,880 --> 01:08:32,879
Speaker 2: Nick often was such a surprise. I mean, Murray Bartlett

1318
01:08:32,920 --> 01:08:38,200
Speaker 2: is incredible, but yeah, nick Offman, just like the tenderness

1319
01:08:38,280 --> 01:08:41,360
Speaker 2: and just the love and the warmth and affection between

1320
01:08:41,400 --> 01:08:43,800
Speaker 2: the two and the fact that it was just a

1321
01:08:43,840 --> 01:08:48,479
Speaker 2: love story. Yeah, just go. Things like that go such

1322
01:08:48,520 --> 01:08:49,400
Speaker 2: a long way.

1323
01:08:49,560 --> 01:08:51,200
Speaker 1: And it kind of leads me to the thing I

1324
01:08:51,280 --> 01:08:56,160
Speaker 1: kind of wanted to. I guess you know, ultimately, we

1325
01:08:56,360 --> 01:08:58,840
Speaker 1: as humans, there is a true human need that is

1326
01:08:58,880 --> 01:09:00,880
Speaker 1: being was being ignored, would buy all of the stuff

1327
01:09:00,920 --> 01:09:03,160
Speaker 1: that was forced on your throat. We as humans. There's

1328
01:09:03,200 --> 01:09:05,040
Speaker 1: things that happen when we drink water. There's things that

1329
01:09:05,040 --> 01:09:07,800
Speaker 1: happen when we eat nourishment. There's things that happen when

1330
01:09:07,800 --> 01:09:10,720
Speaker 1: we have physical intimacy that only happen when we have

1331
01:09:10,720 --> 01:09:13,200
Speaker 1: physical intacy. And if we don't have physical intency, it's

1332
01:09:13,280 --> 01:09:16,920
Speaker 1: bad for us. We get sick, it's we don't think great,

1333
01:09:17,080 --> 01:09:19,439
Speaker 1: you know, we don't. We don't live as long. Physical

1334
01:09:19,520 --> 01:09:22,920
Speaker 1: intimacy touching another human is a very important thing that

1335
01:09:22,960 --> 01:09:25,800
Speaker 1: we need to have, just like we need sunshine and sleep.

1336
01:09:27,200 --> 01:09:30,120
Speaker 1: To have been restricted of that for so long, and

1337
01:09:30,560 --> 01:09:33,280
Speaker 1: you know, the idea that you were willing to go

1338
01:09:33,360 --> 01:09:35,800
Speaker 1: you'll live the rest of your life without it, just

1339
01:09:35,840 --> 01:09:38,000
Speaker 1: so you could be a it shows you a lot

1340
01:09:38,040 --> 01:09:41,800
Speaker 1: about the being lauded over with will you'll be ostracized?

1341
01:09:42,240 --> 01:09:47,559
Speaker 2: Absolutely yeah, And ultimately, as sad as is to say,

1342
01:09:48,000 --> 01:09:52,040
Speaker 2: like because I was trying to avoid the ostracision, That's

1343
01:09:52,080 --> 01:09:55,360
Speaker 2: why I was willing to go that extra mile. But

1344
01:09:55,400 --> 01:09:59,160
Speaker 2: then when I did eventually do the coming out, I mean,

1345
01:09:59,240 --> 01:10:03,760
Speaker 2: all of my fears were realized. So the fact that

1346
01:10:03,760 --> 01:10:07,920
Speaker 2: that's still happening today it's twenty twenty five, you know,

1347
01:10:07,960 --> 01:10:12,040
Speaker 2: that is still a fear that younger children in those

1348
01:10:12,080 --> 01:10:15,519
Speaker 2: worlds will still have. And I don't think that that's

1349
01:10:15,600 --> 01:10:19,400
Speaker 2: right or fair. But I also know how voiceless that

1350
01:10:19,439 --> 01:10:23,840
Speaker 2: they are in that kind of circumstance, which is why,

1351
01:10:23,960 --> 01:10:28,640
Speaker 2: like you know, my book is quite TMI. It's embarrassingly

1352
01:10:29,800 --> 01:10:33,960
Speaker 2: revealing of my life and my personal life, including sort

1353
01:10:33,960 --> 01:10:36,320
Speaker 2: of the ways that I've misstepped since coming out, and

1354
01:10:36,320 --> 01:10:38,800
Speaker 2: the relationships that I've had, and how ill equipped I

1355
01:10:39,000 --> 01:10:41,280
Speaker 2: was to deal with those kinds of things, and therefore

1356
01:10:41,320 --> 01:10:44,960
Speaker 2: the stupid mistakes that I made and the setbacks as

1357
01:10:45,000 --> 01:10:48,720
Speaker 2: a consequence, those are things that I would also like

1358
01:10:48,760 --> 01:10:51,479
Speaker 2: for other people to be able to avoid. One of

1359
01:10:51,520 --> 01:10:53,800
Speaker 2: the things that heightened those issues was the fact that

1360
01:10:53,840 --> 01:10:55,960
Speaker 2: I didn't have the family support to fall back on.

1361
01:10:56,920 --> 01:11:01,559
Speaker 2: And I think that by being honest in this book

1362
01:11:01,600 --> 01:11:04,000
Speaker 2: and talking about all of those grave errors that I

1363
01:11:04,040 --> 01:11:08,880
Speaker 2: did make, you know, I'll wear my own mistakes, perhaps

1364
01:11:09,040 --> 01:11:13,439
Speaker 2: people will shift their thinking. Perhaps that ostracision will become

1365
01:11:13,520 --> 01:11:16,840
Speaker 2: less and less because there might be a greater understanding

1366
01:11:17,400 --> 01:11:20,439
Speaker 2: of what it actually like, what the experience is really

1367
01:11:20,640 --> 01:11:24,400
Speaker 2: like for people like myself, and therefore their gay queer

1368
01:11:24,520 --> 01:11:27,200
Speaker 2: loved one that might be in their family having those

1369
01:11:27,200 --> 01:11:31,599
Speaker 2: same issues. I think if I can even just help

1370
01:11:31,960 --> 01:11:36,479
Speaker 2: a handful of people out that way, then it'll be

1371
01:11:36,560 --> 01:11:37,559
Speaker 2: worth the hair loss.

1372
01:11:38,800 --> 01:11:42,240
Speaker 1: What would you say to parents who are starting to

1373
01:11:43,120 --> 01:11:45,719
Speaker 1: you know, the kids five or six. You know, there's

1374
01:11:46,320 --> 01:11:48,759
Speaker 1: five six seven year olds in my life. They're wearing dresses,

1375
01:11:49,320 --> 01:11:54,479
Speaker 1: you know, they move in a certain way. Their parents

1376
01:11:54,479 --> 01:11:56,759
Speaker 1: are like Matt, so they are. What would you say

1377
01:11:57,080 --> 01:11:59,960
Speaker 1: to either parents of kids like that, or maybe teachers

1378
01:12:01,600 --> 01:12:05,720
Speaker 1: who are faced with this choice of let my kid

1379
01:12:05,800 --> 01:12:07,800
Speaker 1: and love my kid, let my kid be who they

1380
01:12:07,800 --> 01:12:11,559
Speaker 1: are and love them but who they are, or if

1381
01:12:11,560 --> 01:12:14,800
Speaker 1: I do that, I will get ostracized like face with

1382
01:12:14,800 --> 01:12:16,040
Speaker 1: this choice of love, but I don't want to lose

1383
01:12:16,040 --> 01:12:18,000
Speaker 1: this community and my support. What would you say to

1384
01:12:18,000 --> 01:12:19,200
Speaker 1: those people who might be listening.

1385
01:12:20,320 --> 01:12:22,080
Speaker 2: Out of the two of you, who's the more vulnerable,

1386
01:12:22,800 --> 01:12:29,000
Speaker 2: the young child or yourself? I think always pay attention

1387
01:12:29,080 --> 01:12:33,320
Speaker 2: to kids. Kids are smart, They start to develop themselves

1388
01:12:33,320 --> 01:12:38,320
Speaker 2: and their personalities at a young age. And coming from

1389
01:12:38,320 --> 01:12:41,240
Speaker 2: a place where I always felt like a second class

1390
01:12:41,240 --> 01:12:45,439
Speaker 2: citizen because you're just a child, you know nothing, I

1391
01:12:45,560 --> 01:12:49,479
Speaker 2: just think give the respect that a child deserves to

1392
01:12:49,600 --> 01:12:52,000
Speaker 2: just become who they are. Leave them alone, you know,

1393
01:12:52,040 --> 01:12:54,080
Speaker 2: because yes, there are things that are just going to

1394
01:12:54,120 --> 01:12:56,000
Speaker 2: be phases, and there are some things that aren't going

1395
01:12:56,040 --> 01:12:59,080
Speaker 2: to be phases. Maybe putting on the skirt is just

1396
01:12:59,120 --> 01:13:03,120
Speaker 2: a phase, maybe it isn't. Who cares. Just let them

1397
01:13:03,200 --> 01:13:06,120
Speaker 2: do their thing because they'll end up being whoever they are,

1398
01:13:06,280 --> 01:13:09,519
Speaker 2: regardless of what you say or do. But you have

1399
01:13:09,600 --> 01:13:12,840
Speaker 2: the ability to make that an easier life or a

1400
01:13:12,840 --> 01:13:15,200
Speaker 2: more difficult life. And I think as a parent who

1401
01:13:15,280 --> 01:13:17,680
Speaker 2: loves their child, surely you're not going to choose the

1402
01:13:17,680 --> 01:13:18,439
Speaker 2: difficult option.

1403
01:13:19,320 --> 01:13:28,519
Speaker 1: There's a person in my life who's child started wanting

1404
01:13:28,560 --> 01:13:32,960
Speaker 1: to transition to live life as a girl when they

1405
01:13:32,960 --> 01:13:37,360
Speaker 1: were about fifteen or sixteen, and I was talking to

1406
01:13:37,360 --> 01:13:40,479
Speaker 1: them about it, and they just they were so cool.

1407
01:13:40,520 --> 01:13:43,160
Speaker 1: But it I've never really spoken to someone who's in

1408
01:13:43,160 --> 01:13:45,320
Speaker 1: this situation as you are. And you know, because I'm

1409
01:13:45,320 --> 01:13:47,640
Speaker 1: making puberty was starting to really kick in and they

1410
01:13:47,640 --> 01:13:49,720
Speaker 1: were having to make a lot of heavy decisions about this.

1411
01:13:50,680 --> 01:13:54,040
Speaker 1: And this person just said to me, look, the suicide

1412
01:13:54,120 --> 01:13:58,920
Speaker 1: rates for kids like my child eighty five times higher.

1413
01:13:59,280 --> 01:14:01,479
Speaker 1: I'd rather have and a live daughter than a dead son.

1414
01:14:01,640 --> 01:14:06,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, so amen, that's what we're doing. Yeah, No, I

1415
01:14:06,160 --> 01:14:11,639
Speaker 2: completely agree with that. Yeah. I think it is ironic,

1416
01:14:11,720 --> 01:14:15,120
Speaker 2: isn't it that the say, the conservative people in my

1417
01:14:15,280 --> 01:14:19,040
Speaker 2: life who will be trying to groom a child into

1418
01:14:19,080 --> 01:14:21,840
Speaker 2: making a life choice of celibacy at the age of

1419
01:14:21,880 --> 01:14:26,759
Speaker 2: fifteen and sixteen, will say, how dare you allow gender

1420
01:14:26,760 --> 01:14:29,080
Speaker 2: affirming care for a fifteen sixteen year old when they're

1421
01:14:29,080 --> 01:14:31,479
Speaker 2: too young to make a decision about their life. Does

1422
01:14:31,520 --> 01:14:32,880
Speaker 2: that make sense? I don't think so.

1423
01:14:33,120 --> 01:14:36,360
Speaker 1: Not a lot of stuff about any of this makes sense. Yeah,

1424
01:14:36,520 --> 01:14:40,479
Speaker 1: but it has been protected by the Solemnity in the

1425
01:14:40,560 --> 01:14:45,480
Speaker 1: reverence around it for so long people are afraid to

1426
01:14:45,520 --> 01:14:48,240
Speaker 1: speak about it. But I don't know if we can

1427
01:14:48,320 --> 01:14:53,439
Speaker 1: keep doing that. It's so damaging. And like I dare say,

1428
01:14:53,439 --> 01:14:57,000
Speaker 1: you're one of the lucky ones, Tim, there's plenty of

1429
01:14:57,040 --> 01:14:59,920
Speaker 1: people who maybe you didn't know about, but didn't.

1430
01:15:00,160 --> 01:15:03,360
Speaker 2: Oh absolutely, yeah, no, I'm very well aware.

1431
01:15:03,120 --> 01:15:05,360
Speaker 1: Of that everything you did, but they didn't have the

1432
01:15:05,400 --> 01:15:07,960
Speaker 1: strength to do what you've done.

1433
01:15:08,120 --> 01:15:10,720
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think you know. I make a mention in

1434
01:15:10,760 --> 01:15:13,240
Speaker 2: my book. I've had a very unique set of circumstances

1435
01:15:13,280 --> 01:15:17,680
Speaker 2: in my life, and I think that being adopted with

1436
01:15:17,800 --> 01:15:21,040
Speaker 2: something that always made me just have a little asterisk

1437
01:15:21,120 --> 01:15:24,000
Speaker 2: about myself, that always just made me feel a little

1438
01:15:24,040 --> 01:15:26,880
Speaker 2: bit like they don't get me. And I think that

1439
01:15:27,040 --> 01:15:29,120
Speaker 2: was something that really helped me a lot. If I

1440
01:15:29,200 --> 01:15:32,200
Speaker 2: was biologically my parents' child and I was feeling that

1441
01:15:32,280 --> 01:15:34,599
Speaker 2: same kind of lack of understanding, I think that would

1442
01:15:34,600 --> 01:15:36,680
Speaker 2: have been more difficult, and I'm not sure if I

1443
01:15:36,680 --> 01:15:38,280
Speaker 2: would have been strong enough to handle.

1444
01:15:38,120 --> 01:15:42,800
Speaker 1: That it's been wonderful that I'm so happy you came

1445
01:15:42,840 --> 01:15:47,320
Speaker 1: in today. I didn't say a lot of the stuff,

1446
01:15:47,320 --> 01:15:49,679
Speaker 1: but you should know that my body has been coursing

1447
01:15:49,760 --> 01:15:53,639
Speaker 1: with emotional memory of a lot of very similar things

1448
01:15:53,680 --> 01:15:55,960
Speaker 1: to what you've been describing in the suburbs of Brisbane

1449
01:15:55,960 --> 01:16:00,559
Speaker 1: when I was younger, and I'm just grateful that my

1450
01:16:00,720 --> 01:16:08,160
Speaker 1: kids don't go through that. Yeah, it's not right.

1451
01:16:08,520 --> 01:16:09,160
Speaker 2: It's not right.

1452
01:16:09,320 --> 01:16:11,800
Speaker 1: No, And if anybody at the Open s Day wants

1453
01:16:11,800 --> 01:16:14,440
Speaker 1: to write to me, I look forward to your correspondence.

1454
01:16:14,479 --> 01:16:17,400
Speaker 1: I hope your paperweight is lovely and you have a

1455
01:16:17,439 --> 01:16:19,960
Speaker 1: really good type setter, so I look forward to your letter.

1456
01:16:24,240 --> 01:16:29,000
Speaker 1: That was my guest, Tim Pocock. I was not quite

1457
01:16:29,000 --> 01:16:31,840
Speaker 1: as prepared as I thought I was for having that

1458
01:16:31,840 --> 01:16:35,600
Speaker 1: conversation with Tim. I thought, no, I didn't grow up

1459
01:16:35,600 --> 01:16:37,639
Speaker 1: in a CULTI kind of thing like he did. No, wait,

1460
01:16:37,800 --> 01:16:40,479
Speaker 1: not at all. But the more that we spoke, the

1461
01:16:40,479 --> 01:16:43,240
Speaker 1: more I found parallels, which, as I mentioned before, went

1462
01:16:43,280 --> 01:16:46,200
Speaker 1: as intense as what he was going through. Oh boy,

1463
01:16:46,800 --> 01:16:48,960
Speaker 1: there were some stuff that we didn't talk about on air.

1464
01:16:49,320 --> 01:16:51,080
Speaker 1: There's some stuff that we spoke about once we stopped

1465
01:16:51,120 --> 01:16:54,720
Speaker 1: rolling that was very close to home from what too

1466
01:16:54,800 --> 01:16:58,719
Speaker 1: much describing I'm thrilled if some people have a great

1467
01:16:58,760 --> 01:17:02,599
Speaker 1: time and the religion brings them things that they allow

1468
01:17:02,640 --> 01:17:06,160
Speaker 1: us wouldn't get good for you. I'm happy for you,

1469
01:17:06,280 --> 01:17:08,519
Speaker 1: I really am, because I know to be quick to

1470
01:17:08,520 --> 01:17:11,880
Speaker 1: see where religious people are right. But the kind of

1471
01:17:11,880 --> 01:17:14,840
Speaker 1: stuff that Tim's talking about, I can't abide by that,

1472
01:17:15,320 --> 01:17:18,960
Speaker 1: and I don't know if our community should. Just because

1473
01:17:19,000 --> 01:17:23,320
Speaker 1: it's shrouded in the reverence that surrounded religion for so

1474
01:17:23,439 --> 01:17:27,639
Speaker 1: long doesn't mean that it's okay. Some of that stuff

1475
01:17:27,680 --> 01:17:32,720
Speaker 1: is pretty not okay. It's a long conversation. I'm sure

1476
01:17:32,760 --> 01:17:38,160
Speaker 1: it's just there's no where you finished. If you have

1477
01:17:38,200 --> 01:17:40,160
Speaker 1: any thoughts, you can find me send us email at

1478
01:17:40,160 --> 01:17:43,360
Speaker 1: gmail dot com. That goes for you overstate. Maybe you

1479
01:17:43,360 --> 01:17:46,000
Speaker 1: can come along with the Story Club show July sixth

1480
01:17:46,040 --> 01:17:49,400
Speaker 1: the Factory Theater in Marckville. It's this weekend with Merrick Watts,

1481
01:17:49,439 --> 01:17:53,200
Speaker 1: Marley Silver, Ugly, Phil O'Neill is joining us Nardia Townzone.

1482
01:17:53,240 --> 01:17:56,120
Speaker 1: So we're not Lodge and myself where going with the

1483
01:17:56,120 --> 01:17:58,800
Speaker 1: theme everybody needs good neighbors. I'd love to see you there.

1484
01:18:00,040 --> 01:18:00,439
Speaker 1: Great wa