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Speaker 1: Appoche Production. Welcome to Real Crime with Adam Shand. I'm

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Speaker 1: your host, Adam Shand. If you like our content, please subscribe,

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Speaker 1: like and share the podcast to keep this independent crime

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Speaker 1: journalism coming. Russell Street Police Headquarters in Melbourne is one

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Speaker 1: of the most famous landmarks in Australian law enforcement history.

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Speaker 1: The first of five powerful explosions came just after one o'clock,

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Speaker 1: shattering windows and cutting off power to police headquarters in

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Speaker 1: the city Court featured in classic TV shows like Homicide

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Speaker 1: and Pop Music. Today, it's a swinky apartment block with

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Speaker 1: city views to die for, but back in the day,

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Speaker 1: a number of crooks feared it will be the last

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Speaker 1: view they ever saw. The former detainees claim interrogation rooms

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Speaker 1: on the upper floors offered more than just questioning. Years

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Speaker 1: I've been hearing stories of police dangling uncooperative crooks out

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Speaker 1: of the windows of Russell Street to encourage them to

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Speaker 1: share what they knew. Men brought in for questioning say

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Speaker 1: they were shown just how far they could fall with

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Speaker 1: city traffic moving far below. Police have never confirmed the claims.

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Speaker 1: My guest today, Mark de Bono, was given that treatment

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Speaker 1: in the mid nineteen eighties and lived to tell the tale.

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Speaker 1: Mike was no choir boy, and his own decisions probably

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Speaker 1: led him to that precarious location and to other dangerous

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Speaker 1: and violent moments. And he's been writing them all down

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Speaker 1: in a book. And it's my pleasure to welcome you

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Speaker 1: to real crime.

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Speaker 2: Mark great and thank you very much.

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Speaker 1: Tell me what was the view like out of the

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Speaker 1: window of Russell Street police headquarters.

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Speaker 2: I just remember looking down onto the road, mate.

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Speaker 3: Really there was two each side of me, one on

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Speaker 3: the left, one on the right, one behind me, one

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Speaker 3: hold in the back of me pants, each on the

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Speaker 3: other side holding each side of me pants, and one

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Speaker 3: hand each on the back of my neck, you know,

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Speaker 3: holding me out, pushing me. Said, I at least half

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Speaker 3: my body out, and all I could really see was

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Speaker 3: down the road.

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Speaker 2: And the cars all parked and stuff, you know what

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Speaker 2: I mean, Right?

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Speaker 1: And how did you feel at that moment?

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Speaker 3: Well, they were talking, you know, and telling me what

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Speaker 3: goes on, sort of trying to make an ultimatum with me,

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Speaker 3: you know, like, are we going to throw you out

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Speaker 3: there like a few other fellows have jumped out of there,

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Speaker 3: or you're going to tell us what we need to know,

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Speaker 3: you know.

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Speaker 1: And tell me, what did they need to know? What

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Speaker 1: could you have told them?

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Speaker 2: Mark?

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Speaker 3: Well, you know, it was a pretty wild time in

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Speaker 3: my life and we were doing a few things that

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Speaker 3: weren't quite right, and we attracted the attention. I was

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Speaker 3: selling a bit of marijuana and that at the time,

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Speaker 3: you know, it was only twenty living on my own

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Speaker 3: the flaptail, selling a bit of mile quite a bit,

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Speaker 3: and that attracted their attention. There was a bit of

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Speaker 3: stolen goods and stuff you know, coming through and that

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Speaker 3: probably be too much, but A tracked there in that

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Speaker 3: way with a couple of friends of mine, and yeah,

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Speaker 3: they ended up coming picking me up after breaking into

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Speaker 3: my house and stealing some stuff. I sort of went

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Speaker 3: home halfway through the day, but I got told over

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Speaker 3: the two ways by my boss that there have been

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Speaker 3: three big heavy fellas waiting for me when I get

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Speaker 3: back to sign off. But so I emptied everything out

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Speaker 3: at the unit, went back to sign off, and then

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Speaker 3: they took me back to the unit and it all

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Speaker 3: happened there, and then they took me back to Russell

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Speaker 3: Street and yeah, so it's quite a little bit of

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Speaker 3: a story there. But getting to Russell Street, you.

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Speaker 1: Know, absolutely, But I mean like I said, at the

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Speaker 1: outset of very few people are willing to talk about this.

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Speaker 1: A lot of people say, yes, there were people hanging

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Speaker 1: out the windows of Russell Street police headquarters. You're the

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Speaker 1: first who's actually said, I'll tell you about the experience,

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Speaker 1: and so it's not a good it's a true story.

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Speaker 3: Oh, it's a true story. It's one hundred percent true story. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: there's no doubt about that. I remember the face of

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Speaker 3: the third major com squadfella, but do you know the

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Speaker 3: other two?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and they were very heavy, dude.

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Speaker 3: I went home after that and packed up my unit

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Speaker 3: and nessoned and just grabbed what I couldn't move down

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Speaker 3: to talk.

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Speaker 1: Right, you decided it was better to be out of them.

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Speaker 2: Oh I had to get out. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

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Speaker 1: Because this wasn't your first brush with the law, mark,

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Speaker 1: was it. I mean you'd started off pretty young. You're

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Speaker 1: only twenty by this, about nineteen eighty five, I guess.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, no, elithen was great.

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Speaker 3: You know, I was playing cricket at essen and as

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Speaker 3: a sixteen year old, but yeah, I lost that in

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Speaker 3: the castmash when I was ten. So got left of

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Speaker 3: the street from my sporting career and all that was

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Speaker 3: going so good, so I stuck to it and that

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Speaker 3: and I was going real good. But it all fell apart,

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Speaker 3: you know, I just got lefts of the streets and

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Speaker 3: then didn't know much about him and it just became

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Speaker 3: enthralled and all that.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, what happened to you Mark? Well, why there you're

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Speaker 1: going along nicely playing cricket and nesson a number of

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Speaker 1: the pl you played cricket with him went on to

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Speaker 1: play state cricket. A lot of people did pretty well.

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Speaker 1: What happened to you?

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Speaker 3: Well, I ended up going to silis In College, the

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Speaker 3: most amp and sexual abuse school in Melbourne even Australia

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Speaker 3: at the time, and so certain things happened there that

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Speaker 3: I'm going to court with the Catholic Church with at

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Speaker 3: the moment, and so yeah, and not having a dad

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Speaker 3: to older sisters and a mother and you know, pretty

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Speaker 3: women and men coming and I lost my dad.

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Speaker 2: I didn't. I was a confused kid mate.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, and you had a thing against authority, I.

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Speaker 3: Guess no, not really, not at a start at all, really,

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Speaker 3: because the police were really good to me. Like when

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Speaker 3: I lost my dad in the Castmas, you know, there

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Speaker 3: was a lot of sympathy there.

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Speaker 2: They were really good.

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Speaker 3: But you know, the way they handled themselves when I

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Speaker 3: bumped into them made me realized what they were and

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Speaker 3: made a different opinion of them.

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Speaker 2: Then.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, no, I'm sure, But tell me, so you've waited

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Speaker 1: a long time to bring this compensation claim against the

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Speaker 1: Catholic Church. I guess years you just went along with

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Speaker 1: your life, going off track, getting in trouble, some jail time, i'd.

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Speaker 2: Expect three states.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, in three states, When did the penny drop that

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Speaker 1: it was probably time to look at the roots of

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Speaker 1: your offending?

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Speaker 2: Definitely birthed me first son.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, why did that change the picture?

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Speaker 3: Well, you know, I lost my father at the age

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Speaker 3: of ten and the castmas and I know what it

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Speaker 3: caused me. So I didn't want to have children in

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Speaker 3: the world and lead them to the streets or not

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Speaker 3: having any input into their life, you know. And as

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Speaker 3: I did, go back and both of my boys are

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Speaker 3: very successful and never taking any drugs or don't even

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Speaker 3: drink and that.

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Speaker 1: So, yeah, that's a credit to you, Mark.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's worked that good.

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Speaker 3: The older sons of multi millionaire and my younger son

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Speaker 3: loves at home with me and own's half an hour,

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Speaker 3: So he doesn't drink or do any drugs and he's

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Speaker 3: very straight and living a really good life.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that's tremendous because you didn't have that chance. Did

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Speaker 1: you feel that loss? Did you feel that space? Because

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Speaker 1: I think a lot of we talk a lot about

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Speaker 1: youth crime these days in our society and young men

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Speaker 1: in particular who were going off track, and it's often

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Speaker 1: because they don't have a strong male figure in their lives.

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Speaker 1: Do you think that sums up your situation back in

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Speaker 1: those days.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, had a very very very close relationship with me, daddy.

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Speaker 3: He was very successful. Man, brought me up properly, done

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Speaker 3: in all the right things. You know. It's an innovative

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Speaker 3: skin diver and found shipwrecks and stuff in the early

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Speaker 3: seventies and he was the president of the Mako Diving

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Speaker 3: group and he was an advanced diver and he used

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Speaker 3: to die the caves at Man Gambia and stuff. You

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Speaker 3: know when we used to just walk out of paddocks.

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Speaker 3: You know the one hole at Man Gambia. I don't

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Speaker 3: know if you know it, but you got to be

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Speaker 3: such an events. I had to dive it now. But

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Speaker 3: he's just put a ladder across it and I on

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Speaker 3: the edge of it when they used to die it.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. He was an innovative dither, very clever man and.

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Speaker 1: Quite a heroic, brave figure.

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Speaker 3: As a role model for you, yeah yeah, he was

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Speaker 3: replaceable and sort of showed me what life could be.

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Speaker 2: And then.

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Speaker 3: Like yeah, it was just left for two to the

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Speaker 3: streets basically with three women, two sisters and a mother

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Speaker 3: that just worried about themselves and didn't worry about me.

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Speaker 3: I just left it as streets may depended on myself, you.

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Speaker 2: Know what I mean.

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Speaker 1: Have you got a relationship with those women or your

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Speaker 1: sisters these days?

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Speaker 2: My mum's passed, na na untill finished. Now, such a shame.

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Speaker 1: So I found this when I was dealing with the

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Speaker 1: outwoard motorcycle clubs, that these young men would lose their

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Speaker 1: father or divorce or something like that, and they would

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Speaker 1: find their way into criminal circles and they'd find someone,

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Speaker 1: possibly in jail or at a motorcycle club, who would

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Speaker 1: fill that place for them in their lives. The male

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Speaker 1: role model. Did you find someone that's stepped in for you?

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Speaker 3: Well, it's funny, you know, mum, As I say, you know,

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Speaker 3: going back into me cricket and that, you know. So

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Speaker 3: she started dating my coach who played cricket in England

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Speaker 3: with Clive Lloyd and Ashley Mallett and Jeff Dimmick and

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Speaker 3: all that.

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Speaker 2: But she liked sporting.

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Speaker 3: Identities, but she dated him first, which I sort of

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Speaker 3: ruined my career a bit too, you know, dating my coach.

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Speaker 3: But I used to sit in when the WSC first

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Speaker 3: came out and that with you know, I'd go from

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Speaker 3: the room from the Western to the Australians because he

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Speaker 3: knew Clive Lloyd and would go in the rooms with

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Speaker 3: Clive Lloyd and then go over the rooms with the

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Speaker 3: Australians with Jeff Dimmick, you know. And then after that

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Speaker 3: she went out with John Brady. So the fellow that

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Speaker 3: you're asking about the boat to fill the void was

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Speaker 3: John Brady. He was Captain of North Melbourne in the

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Speaker 3: mid to late fifties, I think from fifty four to

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Speaker 3: fifty eighty was Captain North. But he was a big drinker.

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Speaker 3: They used to drink at the Southern Cross Hotel. The

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Speaker 3: boat there owned it named Billy Crooks and all of

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Speaker 3: the journals used to drink there. In South Melbourne, the

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Speaker 3: Southern Cross. So he was a huge, huge drinker, and

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Speaker 3: that was a bloke that sort of had an influence

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Speaker 3: in my life. And I think I was about nineteen

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Speaker 3: or something like that when I met John, and he

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Speaker 3: was a huge drinking so that's what I became. I

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Speaker 3: just became a huge drinker with him. He wasn't a

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Speaker 3: real good role model, but I did meet a lot

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Speaker 3: of people through John, like Bobby Rose and Teddy Whitten

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Speaker 3: and goes on blist goes on and on and on.

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Speaker 3: But that was all drinking involved, you know.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, so you were born in nineteen sixty five, I

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Speaker 1: think around that era, weren't you. Yeah, that's right, Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: then you're nineteen. By the age of twenty, you're in

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Speaker 1: Pentridge on remark.

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Speaker 2: Yeah that's right. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: And what you've done, you've actually written a lot of

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Speaker 1: your story down and quite a gripping account. You've written

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Speaker 1: it really well, I must say, and think you sent me.

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Speaker 1: I guess this was quite a short story really in

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Speaker 1: terms of the time it took, but it was quite

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Speaker 1: significant what happened. Tell us about how you ended up

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Speaker 1: in Pentridge at that time, and you know, you were

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Speaker 1: lucky to even get out of that stretch. Consider the

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Speaker 1: things you did at the time and the people that

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Speaker 1: you pissed off.

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Speaker 3: So yeah, yeah, yeah, well you know it's still Asi

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Speaker 3: culture back then, you know it was remember it was

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Speaker 3: all us. We were a lot of kids, you know.

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Speaker 3: So when the vietnamees rocked up, it was like they

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Speaker 3: invaded our joint, you know, and we didn't like it.

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Speaker 3: And so when we heard that they were taken over

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Speaker 3: suburbs and stuff, extort money out of shop owners and stuff,

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Speaker 3: and whoever wasn't complying, you know, they were stabbing them

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Speaker 3: and they, like a lot of us, didn't like it.

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Speaker 3: So but how I came to end up in pantries

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Speaker 3: on the Friday night, I sitting the name with me

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Speaker 3: girlfriend Michelle, and news slash on the tally and Van

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Speaker 3: Tran I used to know him as now I thought,

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Speaker 3: but he must have came down to Melbourne to an

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Speaker 3: assumed name or something ran anyway, we've seen it use

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Speaker 3: on the news and him and his mates had stabbed

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Speaker 3: the Spring Butcher shop owner because he wasn't complying and

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Speaker 3: didn't pay the extraution money. But the thing that got

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Speaker 3: me was he'd been in charge of the Rustle Street

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Speaker 3: and he's walking across the road with all the meat

255
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Speaker 3: was waiting for him, and now he started spitting at

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Speaker 3: the camera. You know, it's just showing total disrespect. And

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Speaker 3: then it just triggered something. So I mean I just

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Speaker 3: turned to your girlfriend and said, you know, jeez, when

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Speaker 3: they get the panachees, I'll get a hide.

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Speaker 2: And you know, because you know.

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Speaker 3: The disrespect, I felt like the bullets would get their

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Speaker 3: hands on pretty quick because like kind of this happening,

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Speaker 3: you know.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, the bloke you're talking about is actually Nam Van Newen,

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Speaker 1: who was called the Saigon Tiger. And this floke was

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Speaker 1: one of the worse and the worse. I think he

267
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Speaker 1: had about twenty plus years in various Victorian jails, and

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Speaker 1: he had all kinds of charges from trafficking, heroin, armed robbery,

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Speaker 1: aggravated burglary, grievous bodily harmful imprisonment, kidnapping, and blackmail. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and you actually caught him just before his first appearance

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Speaker 1: in Call, I should say, in nineteen eighty six, and

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Speaker 1: that was for extortion, kidnapping, and grievous bodily harm. Meanwhile,

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Speaker 1: you were just sitting at home watching Telly. You found

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Speaker 1: your way into remand as well, how did that happen?

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Speaker 3: Well, I've been on a lot of prescription medication. Actually

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Speaker 3: I was prescribed Roy hick No by a doctor, you know,

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Speaker 3: that date rape. But I was prescribed it, you know,

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Speaker 3: because I thoughd yeah, lots of things, you know. But

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Speaker 3: then I ran out of it and I started going

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Speaker 3: through withdrawal from the prescription medication. I was drinking a

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Speaker 3: lot of alcohol, like a bottle of bourbon a day

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Speaker 3: and down my sister's in Mornington and decided about three

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Speaker 3: o'clock in the morning, the sweats hit and rolling around,

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Speaker 3: and I said, oh Jude, I've got to go and

285
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Speaker 3: get something to hold the need for prescription medication or whatever.

286
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Speaker 3: I get my hands on the alo whatever.

287
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Speaker 2: You know.

288
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Speaker 3: My sister and all that had made it impossible for

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Speaker 3: me to get anywhere, taking the car and everything like that.

290
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Speaker 3: But I just walked out and across the road was

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Speaker 3: the car yard, and I walked in through the car

292
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Speaker 3: yard and the gate trape and on a Saturday morning,

293
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Speaker 3: I just walked over the first car as a Mitchebishi

294
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Speaker 3: Magna and had the keys and I jumped in brand

295
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Speaker 3: new case Cays on the clock and headed the Melbourne.

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Speaker 1: Easy because they grabbed you.

297
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Speaker 3: Yeah, old missus the rangakopp chair. When I got to Melbourne,

298
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Speaker 3: had to do a chase here and got surrounded.

299
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Speaker 2: Yeah.

300
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Speaker 3: So I ended up in the old Melbourne jail for

301
00:14:14,921 --> 00:14:15,801
Speaker 3: the weekend.

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Speaker 1: With them, and that's where you met them, Van Newan.

303
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Speaker 1: What happened next?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, And he's made money, so I didn't get me

305
00:14:23,081 --> 00:14:25,321
Speaker 3: medications and so I'm in the third or fourth day

306
00:14:25,321 --> 00:14:27,201
Speaker 3: and I was starting to get more and more rum

307
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Speaker 3: stress and stuff.

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Speaker 1: And what's what's that withdrawal? Like?

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Speaker 3: Well, you can't explain it unless you've really been through it, mate,

310
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Speaker 3: you know. It's just that's why so many people take

311
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Speaker 3: their lives. They kill themselves, you know, because they just

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00:14:40,601 --> 00:14:43,321
Speaker 3: can't handle it, you know. And I feel sorry fhm

313
00:14:43,401 --> 00:14:45,801
Speaker 3: they do it, but I can understand what they do.

314
00:14:45,881 --> 00:14:49,201
Speaker 3: It's something you don't want. You were sending me to

315
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Speaker 3: go through.

316
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Speaker 1: This was like almost unbearable for you.

317
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Speaker 2: Yeah that's right. Yeah.

318
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Speaker 1: And meanwhile you're in ramand but you're not in pantry yet.

319
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Speaker 1: You're actually in the old Melbourne jail at this time.

320
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Speaker 2: Yeah that's right.

321
00:15:01,761 --> 00:15:05,881
Speaker 1: Yeah, Russell Street, what was that like? That's a very old,

322
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Speaker 1: real old medieval dungeon.

323
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Speaker 3: Yeah, it was winter two, very cold, but they had

324
00:15:12,001 --> 00:15:15,801
Speaker 3: them separated, Nam and Munn, and it was echoed the

325
00:15:15,841 --> 00:15:19,361
Speaker 3: place really echoed. But I realized it was them because

326
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Speaker 3: they had them separated in different cells, and they were

327
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Speaker 3: yelling out to each other, you know, in the the

328
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Speaker 3: maze language, and it was echoing through the whole place,

329
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Speaker 3: and it was annoying me. And it was for the

330
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Speaker 3: whole weekend. So I just kept getting angrier and angrier,

331
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Speaker 3: you know, until the court appearance on the monday, you know.

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Speaker 1: And so you'd had some words with them through the walls, had.

333
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Speaker 2: You, Yeah, Yeah, I had. Yeah. I was telling them

334
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Speaker 2: to shut up and that.

335
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Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, And they were yelling out back, and we

336
00:15:49,601 --> 00:15:52,641
Speaker 3: were already at loggerheads sort of, but hadn't seen each

337
00:15:52,641 --> 00:15:53,761
Speaker 3: other face to face yet.

338
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Speaker 1: Yeah. Right, And you're probably telling him when I when

339
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Speaker 1: I get older, you two, You why I order.

340
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Speaker 2: I wasn't saying that at all, you know.

341
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Speaker 3: I wasn't saying that at all because I didn't know

342
00:16:03,401 --> 00:16:04,761
Speaker 3: what was going to happen or what was going to

343
00:16:04,761 --> 00:16:06,841
Speaker 3: go to And I didn't make any threats or nothing,

344
00:16:06,881 --> 00:16:08,641
Speaker 3: but I just didn't expect to end up into the

345
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Speaker 3: showers with them with half a meter away from me.

346
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Speaker 1: So you make your court appearance. What happens?

347
00:16:12,961 --> 00:16:16,921
Speaker 3: There no bail for them, and I think I've got

348
00:16:17,241 --> 00:16:19,361
Speaker 3: like a two and a half thousand dollars cash and

349
00:16:19,361 --> 00:16:22,001
Speaker 3: two and a half thousand dollars sure or something. So

350
00:16:22,041 --> 00:16:25,481
Speaker 3: I had to go into to remand and wait until

351
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Speaker 3: someone posts a bar, you know.

352
00:16:27,561 --> 00:16:29,681
Speaker 1: And who was going to do that? Mum wasn't going

353
00:16:29,721 --> 00:16:31,401
Speaker 1: to do it. For your sisters had lagged you out.

354
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Speaker 1: They went. They didn't want to.

355
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Speaker 2: Send me, did they not?

356
00:16:34,921 --> 00:16:39,921
Speaker 3: My sister's my sister in particular, the youngest one, the

357
00:16:39,961 --> 00:16:42,121
Speaker 3: oldest one didn't. She wasn't had nothing to do with

358
00:16:42,321 --> 00:16:45,441
Speaker 3: The youngest one was her mum or fires. She was

359
00:16:45,441 --> 00:16:47,041
Speaker 3: telling Mom, you know what to do, Leave them in

360
00:16:47,081 --> 00:16:48,721
Speaker 3: there and just teach them a lesson, you know.

361
00:16:49,201 --> 00:16:51,401
Speaker 1: So you're you're waiting for the bail to be posted.

362
00:16:52,121 --> 00:16:55,241
Speaker 1: You get set out to Pentridge. Which division were you in?

363
00:16:56,801 --> 00:16:58,921
Speaker 3: Well, we go into the showers, you know, when you

364
00:16:58,921 --> 00:17:00,161
Speaker 3: get out of the back of the truck. They had

365
00:17:00,201 --> 00:17:01,721
Speaker 3: them separated from from us.

366
00:17:02,201 --> 00:17:04,321
Speaker 2: But bing going. I don't know if was a set

367
00:17:04,401 --> 00:17:04,721
Speaker 2: up or what.

368
00:17:05,080 --> 00:17:07,001
Speaker 3: All of a sudden, you know, you muster up and

369
00:17:07,041 --> 00:17:09,840
Speaker 3: they take your clothes off in and give you your greens,

370
00:17:09,921 --> 00:17:11,440
Speaker 3: you know, and then you go from there.

371
00:17:12,041 --> 00:17:15,721
Speaker 2: What do they call it? Classified? Classified? Class?

372
00:17:16,080 --> 00:17:19,161
Speaker 3: Yeah, so some bokes in the van had already been

373
00:17:19,201 --> 00:17:21,720
Speaker 3: sentenced to court to twelve years, so they go to

374
00:17:21,761 --> 00:17:25,360
Speaker 3: the center part of the game. But me, like I

375
00:17:25,441 --> 00:17:27,600
Speaker 3: was on Remand and with a whole lot of the

376
00:17:27,640 --> 00:17:31,080
Speaker 3: other boys, Paul Melander and all that I came close

377
00:17:31,080 --> 00:17:32,521
Speaker 3: friends with and still talk to you.

378
00:17:32,921 --> 00:17:35,241
Speaker 1: Well, Paul Allender is interesting one. He was the one

379
00:17:35,561 --> 00:17:37,881
Speaker 1: that shot knees but in the face with the shotgun,

380
00:17:37,961 --> 00:17:38,240
Speaker 1: wasn't he?

381
00:17:39,120 --> 00:17:39,721
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's right.

382
00:17:39,761 --> 00:17:42,400
Speaker 3: We got locked up on the same night and the

383
00:17:42,441 --> 00:17:43,241
Speaker 3: same weekend.

384
00:17:43,400 --> 00:17:47,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, how did he feel about that? Because he was

385
00:17:47,160 --> 00:17:50,721
Speaker 1: that was a shocking thing because Kay was giving him

386
00:17:50,721 --> 00:17:53,680
Speaker 1: a note, hev Yeah, it was giving him a note

387
00:17:54,041 --> 00:17:56,840
Speaker 1: to say that his girlfriend didn't want to see him anymore,

388
00:17:56,840 --> 00:17:58,521
Speaker 1: and he just pitchres up and shoots it.

389
00:18:00,360 --> 00:18:05,281
Speaker 3: Well, you know, there is a lot of thing is

390
00:18:05,761 --> 00:18:08,161
Speaker 3: to be said, and we're probably best off leaving alone

391
00:18:08,201 --> 00:18:12,120
Speaker 3: because like Paul's got a completely different story and I

392
00:18:12,201 --> 00:18:14,400
Speaker 3: know a different side of the story too, and his

393
00:18:14,521 --> 00:18:17,400
Speaker 3: heart was broken and hurt in that I know, he

394
00:18:17,521 --> 00:18:20,160
Speaker 3: loved one of the girls and she went back on

395
00:18:20,160 --> 00:18:22,600
Speaker 3: the game, so you know how much that at her.

396
00:18:22,880 --> 00:18:25,400
Speaker 3: But like, I don't know the intricacy of it all

397
00:18:25,481 --> 00:18:28,521
Speaker 3: and if it actually was him, and it was all

398
00:18:28,561 --> 00:18:34,120
Speaker 3: done through a stained glass home, you know, with a

399
00:18:34,120 --> 00:18:37,480
Speaker 3: long hallway where the light goes on and remember, and

400
00:18:37,721 --> 00:18:39,640
Speaker 3: the person would walk up the hallway and you'd look

401
00:18:39,721 --> 00:18:42,400
Speaker 3: through the smoke and you'd see the silhouette sort of

402
00:18:42,400 --> 00:18:43,840
Speaker 3: coming towards closer to you.

403
00:18:44,521 --> 00:18:45,361
Speaker 2: Yeah, and so.

404
00:18:45,521 --> 00:18:48,400
Speaker 3: The person that shot Kay was on the other side

405
00:18:48,441 --> 00:18:49,801
Speaker 3: and shot through the glass.

406
00:18:50,041 --> 00:18:52,041
Speaker 2: So there's you know what I mean, there's a lot

407
00:18:52,041 --> 00:18:53,080
Speaker 2: of Yeah.

408
00:18:53,201 --> 00:18:55,561
Speaker 1: Well, I think let's let Paul tell a story anyway.

409
00:18:55,600 --> 00:18:58,681
Speaker 1: I think the issue of course here is when you're

410
00:18:58,681 --> 00:19:01,400
Speaker 1: in jail with people, you don't make judgments.

411
00:19:01,640 --> 00:19:02,481
Speaker 2: Nah, you don't.

412
00:19:02,681 --> 00:19:04,961
Speaker 1: You've just got to get along with them. You found

413
00:19:05,041 --> 00:19:07,240
Speaker 1: yourself there with Paul. You're not going to be a

414
00:19:07,281 --> 00:19:08,840
Speaker 1: moral judge.

415
00:19:09,160 --> 00:19:12,880
Speaker 3: No, and certainly not because you listen to stories and

416
00:19:13,160 --> 00:19:16,280
Speaker 3: like mate, fair income, I'm telling you now, judges have

417
00:19:16,360 --> 00:19:19,681
Speaker 3: to assume and presume. And because they have to assume

418
00:19:19,761 --> 00:19:23,200
Speaker 3: and presume, they were wrong a lot of times. And

419
00:19:23,241 --> 00:19:26,120
Speaker 3: there is a lot of men in jail doing time

420
00:19:26,201 --> 00:19:28,641
Speaker 3: that are innocent, and that is a fact, and it's

421
00:19:28,681 --> 00:19:29,521
Speaker 3: as simple as that.

422
00:19:29,721 --> 00:19:32,760
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's true. But I'll say in return to that

423
00:19:32,761 --> 00:19:34,680
Speaker 1: that sometimes they didn't get caught for a bunch of

424
00:19:34,681 --> 00:19:35,281
Speaker 1: other things.

425
00:19:36,481 --> 00:19:39,001
Speaker 2: Yeah, in the end, that's that's irrelevant.

426
00:19:39,041 --> 00:19:40,640
Speaker 3: It's only the matter that comes in front of the

427
00:19:40,640 --> 00:19:42,321
Speaker 3: court that you should front for, you know what I mean?

428
00:19:42,360 --> 00:19:45,321
Speaker 1: Fair enough, fair enough? Anyway, you were tender, right skilty.

429
00:19:45,400 --> 00:19:47,481
Speaker 1: You did pinch that car. You were where you need

430
00:19:47,481 --> 00:19:47,761
Speaker 1: it to be.

431
00:19:48,201 --> 00:19:50,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, sure.

432
00:19:50,481 --> 00:19:52,280
Speaker 1: And you go into the showers and who do your

433
00:19:52,281 --> 00:19:53,241
Speaker 1: bloody will see?

434
00:19:54,001 --> 00:19:55,680
Speaker 3: Yeah, the bloke's on the telly what's spitting on the

435
00:19:55,721 --> 00:19:57,801
Speaker 3: cameras that I said, you're going to get a hide

436
00:19:57,801 --> 00:19:59,160
Speaker 3: when they get the venturage.

437
00:19:59,761 --> 00:20:02,680
Speaker 1: And so you know, you said, good afternoon, gentlemen, how

438
00:20:02,721 --> 00:20:03,921
Speaker 1: are you?

439
00:20:03,961 --> 00:20:04,361
Speaker 2: Well?

440
00:20:04,640 --> 00:20:09,640
Speaker 3: We knew that those two and me knew who we were,

441
00:20:09,721 --> 00:20:12,080
Speaker 3: you know, because of the whole week end together. We

442
00:20:12,160 --> 00:20:14,880
Speaker 3: seen each other from a distance, having breakfasts and stuff

443
00:20:14,921 --> 00:20:17,201
Speaker 3: like that. I don't know how it came about, because

444
00:20:17,201 --> 00:20:20,161
Speaker 3: they were separated from us in the van and they

445
00:20:20,201 --> 00:20:22,881
Speaker 3: never got to stay with us in the remand unit,

446
00:20:23,001 --> 00:20:26,201
Speaker 3: but they got to be under the showers with us. Now,

447
00:20:26,241 --> 00:20:29,121
Speaker 3: that's where a lot of incidents happen is under the showers.

448
00:20:29,160 --> 00:20:31,401
Speaker 3: In the first he say, you know, like it's possible,

449
00:20:31,521 --> 00:20:33,400
Speaker 3: the screws set it up for that to happen, You

450
00:20:33,441 --> 00:20:34,161
Speaker 3: know what I mean.

451
00:20:34,160 --> 00:20:36,321
Speaker 1: It's possible, But I mean a lot of these things

452
00:20:36,321 --> 00:20:39,401
Speaker 1: do happen in the showers. And it's like, I guess,

453
00:20:39,441 --> 00:20:41,681
Speaker 1: in the showers, as you go in there, you don't

454
00:20:41,721 --> 00:20:44,561
Speaker 1: look at anybody. You don't drop the soap, that's for sure,

455
00:20:44,880 --> 00:20:48,321
Speaker 1: but you certainly do not look over at the blake

456
00:20:48,400 --> 00:20:50,080
Speaker 1: next to you, look him up and down with a

457
00:20:50,201 --> 00:20:53,481
Speaker 1: withering sort of contempt, which I think is what mister

458
00:20:53,561 --> 00:20:54,441
Speaker 1: Ewan did to you.

459
00:20:54,840 --> 00:20:56,960
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's right, Yeah he did. Yeah, we locked eyes.

460
00:20:57,600 --> 00:21:00,561
Speaker 3: They were to my left and one was close to me.

461
00:21:00,600 --> 00:21:03,440
Speaker 3: There was a bit further, but they looked me up

462
00:21:03,481 --> 00:21:06,801
Speaker 3: and down. I just balled them. They looked at each other,

463
00:21:07,441 --> 00:21:13,720
Speaker 3: said something in their language, and then started laughing, and

464
00:21:13,801 --> 00:21:15,001
Speaker 3: that triggered something in me.

465
00:21:15,921 --> 00:21:18,400
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think I know what happened next, but you

466
00:21:18,481 --> 00:21:19,281
Speaker 1: can tell me anyway.

467
00:21:20,080 --> 00:21:24,680
Speaker 3: Well, yeah, I just saw black, you know, and I

468
00:21:24,921 --> 00:21:29,440
Speaker 3: sort of went out pretty quick and dropped him, cleaned

469
00:21:29,481 --> 00:21:32,840
Speaker 3: him up. Some nice shots you know, cleaned him up

470
00:21:32,840 --> 00:21:37,520
Speaker 3: pretty quick. But Nam actually ran, so Nam ran, and

471
00:21:37,600 --> 00:21:40,120
Speaker 3: there was only one exit out to where he could

472
00:21:40,160 --> 00:21:42,360
Speaker 3: go to, and I'd seen him where he had gone to,

473
00:21:42,521 --> 00:21:45,881
Speaker 3: and all the boys started blocking. I ran out through

474
00:21:45,880 --> 00:21:48,241
Speaker 3: there and they blocked any doorways off so the screws

475
00:21:48,281 --> 00:21:49,961
Speaker 3: couldn't get through, so I could get to Nam.

476
00:21:50,001 --> 00:21:53,281
Speaker 1: You know. So this was a popular decision to bash

477
00:21:53,441 --> 00:21:54,080
Speaker 1: mister Newan.

478
00:21:54,681 --> 00:21:57,720
Speaker 3: Well, what the governor said to me later on, you know,

479
00:21:58,001 --> 00:21:59,880
Speaker 3: was I was very lucky it was them, because they

480
00:21:59,961 --> 00:22:02,521
Speaker 3: knew they were going to get it, you know, right.

481
00:22:02,600 --> 00:22:05,600
Speaker 1: And Van and Nwan had long hair. He was known

482
00:22:05,640 --> 00:22:08,880
Speaker 1: by that, yeah tiger, this long hair, and he was

483
00:22:08,921 --> 00:22:11,640
Speaker 1: a well known triad. I mean, a reasonably tough bloke,

484
00:22:11,721 --> 00:22:14,120
Speaker 1: you'd imagine. But you caught up with him pretty quickly

485
00:22:14,120 --> 00:22:15,201
Speaker 1: and got a handful of his hair.

486
00:22:16,600 --> 00:22:19,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I remember.

487
00:22:19,201 --> 00:22:20,721
Speaker 3: I think I hit him a couple of times, dropped

488
00:22:20,761 --> 00:22:23,521
Speaker 3: him and wrapped his hair up in my hand. And

489
00:22:23,640 --> 00:22:26,481
Speaker 3: there was concrete seats jumping out off a bluestone wall,

490
00:22:26,761 --> 00:22:31,120
Speaker 3: and he couldn't go on with it after I belted him,

491
00:22:31,600 --> 00:22:33,761
Speaker 3: might have even been unconscious, but I wrapped his hair

492
00:22:33,880 --> 00:22:37,120
Speaker 3: up in my right hand and the concrete sheets, jumping

493
00:22:37,160 --> 00:22:40,761
Speaker 3: out off the bluestone walls. I just smashed his head down,

494
00:22:41,080 --> 00:22:43,880
Speaker 3: you know, three or four times on the concrete sheet

495
00:22:43,921 --> 00:22:46,001
Speaker 3: and left him in a pool of blood to it.

496
00:22:47,080 --> 00:22:48,761
Speaker 1: Yeah, I tell you what I mean. You're right when

497
00:22:48,801 --> 00:22:51,080
Speaker 1: you say you get triggered and you snap and you

498
00:22:51,120 --> 00:22:54,080
Speaker 1: do these things because at that moment you're in there

499
00:22:54,080 --> 00:22:57,681
Speaker 1: for car theft, you could have easily been now doing

500
00:22:57,681 --> 00:23:00,241
Speaker 1: a long stretch for murder. Did that pass your mind

501
00:23:00,360 --> 00:23:01,960
Speaker 1: as you do as you go moment?

502
00:23:02,600 --> 00:23:03,961
Speaker 2: Not at all? Nah?

503
00:23:04,561 --> 00:23:09,561
Speaker 3: Nah, lost control? Yeah, I just can't remember much of it,

504
00:23:09,600 --> 00:23:13,001
Speaker 3: but I just went off. I just I suppose it

505
00:23:13,360 --> 00:23:16,761
Speaker 3: wasn't just that incident, was probably everything involved me father,

506
00:23:16,840 --> 00:23:19,760
Speaker 3: all the everything what happened in the past ten years,

507
00:23:19,801 --> 00:23:22,521
Speaker 3: losing me quick. I just exploded at that moment, you know,

508
00:23:22,561 --> 00:23:25,321
Speaker 3: when I got to pantry, you know, everything just then

509
00:23:25,481 --> 00:23:27,321
Speaker 3: right then, at that moment, it was a pinnacle. It

510
00:23:27,400 --> 00:23:30,280
Speaker 3: was just like a big explosion of everything. I just

511
00:23:30,321 --> 00:23:32,281
Speaker 3: outlet everything. That's why I'd done it so easy, And

512
00:23:32,321 --> 00:23:34,561
Speaker 3: it all happened so quick. You know, they were fighting

513
00:23:34,600 --> 00:23:38,321
Speaker 3: something other than just the physical me. They were fighting

514
00:23:38,321 --> 00:23:40,601
Speaker 3: a mental thing that had been abused for so.

515
00:23:40,801 --> 00:23:42,680
Speaker 2: Long, you know what I mean, and then exploded.

516
00:23:42,721 --> 00:23:45,121
Speaker 1: Then yeah, and that's right. And you had these men

517
00:23:46,041 --> 00:23:49,481
Speaker 1: speaking the language you didn't understand. We're laughing at you

518
00:23:49,961 --> 00:23:52,681
Speaker 1: and showing for you, and as you say.

519
00:23:52,681 --> 00:23:55,281
Speaker 3: Coming to our country and spring Belle was a lovely place,

520
00:23:55,321 --> 00:23:59,401
Speaker 3: you know, butchershop owners of lovely people, and what they're

521
00:23:59,400 --> 00:24:01,080
Speaker 3: going to rock in and start saying, if you don't

522
00:24:01,080 --> 00:24:02,521
Speaker 3: pay us money, you can't operate.

523
00:24:02,561 --> 00:24:04,281
Speaker 2: And I was just all wrong, you know what I mean.

524
00:24:04,801 --> 00:24:09,761
Speaker 1: Sit yeah, because suddenly you're going from what probably would

525
00:24:09,761 --> 00:24:12,640
Speaker 1: have been a suspended sentence of a few months maybe

526
00:24:12,640 --> 00:24:16,880
Speaker 1: a year, to a serious assault which could have meant

527
00:24:16,921 --> 00:24:20,401
Speaker 1: three times that stretch. And you're lucky you didn't kill him,

528
00:24:20,961 --> 00:24:25,481
Speaker 1: you know, to be honest, you didn't.

529
00:24:26,441 --> 00:24:28,801
Speaker 2: You could have controlled.

530
00:24:28,921 --> 00:24:30,921
Speaker 3: I could have kept smashing his head and probably jumped

531
00:24:30,961 --> 00:24:33,321
Speaker 3: on it and dropped the knee on it and killed him.

532
00:24:33,360 --> 00:24:35,361
Speaker 3: And probably that's what would have been the best result

533
00:24:35,400 --> 00:24:37,401
Speaker 3: for him. But you know, I would have got eight

534
00:24:37,400 --> 00:24:39,680
Speaker 3: into twenty years. But I did pull myself up. But

535
00:24:39,681 --> 00:24:42,001
Speaker 3: that's what he did deserve, I believe, anyway, And he

536
00:24:42,120 --> 00:24:44,721
Speaker 3: ended up getting it from his own anyway. And he's

537
00:24:44,761 --> 00:24:47,801
Speaker 3: a putrid prick and he deserved to die that way anyway.

538
00:24:48,160 --> 00:24:50,561
Speaker 1: He said, he wasn't a popular character. I think he

539
00:24:50,640 --> 00:24:54,240
Speaker 1: went on to a long criminal career which stretched on

540
00:24:54,281 --> 00:24:57,521
Speaker 1: into the two thousands. But as far as your life

541
00:24:57,561 --> 00:25:01,160
Speaker 1: was concerned, I mean this, blokes, and nobody yet is

542
00:25:01,201 --> 00:25:04,561
Speaker 1: in a sense. Now you're in front of the governor

543
00:25:04,600 --> 00:25:06,201
Speaker 1: still know, clothes on by the way.

544
00:25:07,360 --> 00:25:08,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, they threw me.

545
00:25:08,681 --> 00:25:11,480
Speaker 3: Yeah, they bounced me off a few walls and then

546
00:25:11,921 --> 00:25:14,960
Speaker 3: give me a bit of a bit and the door opened,

547
00:25:15,001 --> 00:25:16,521
Speaker 3: and I just got thrown into a seat.

548
00:25:16,640 --> 00:25:16,840
Speaker 2: Bang.

549
00:25:16,880 --> 00:25:19,400
Speaker 3: And there's a big desk, and they threw me a towel,

550
00:25:19,561 --> 00:25:22,761
Speaker 3: and there's a governor sitting by on the desk on me,

551
00:25:22,801 --> 00:25:24,481
Speaker 3: paved work in front of him, and a couple of

552
00:25:24,481 --> 00:25:26,640
Speaker 3: screws each side of me, you know, and.

553
00:25:26,561 --> 00:25:29,081
Speaker 1: You were fairly lucky. I don't think you even got

554
00:25:29,080 --> 00:25:30,441
Speaker 1: a prison assault charge.

555
00:25:31,160 --> 00:25:32,961
Speaker 3: Now, that's what the governor said. He said, if he

556
00:25:33,001 --> 00:25:36,041
Speaker 3: whacked a couple of prison assaults on me there then,

557
00:25:36,521 --> 00:25:38,281
Speaker 3: and with what I was facing, he said, I was

558
00:25:38,321 --> 00:25:40,761
Speaker 3: going to be there three or four years. That's when

559
00:25:40,761 --> 00:25:43,080
Speaker 3: I started the panic. But he turned it all around

560
00:25:43,120 --> 00:25:45,600
Speaker 3: pretty quick. He went from really serious and telling me

561
00:25:45,640 --> 00:25:47,321
Speaker 3: how much trouble. I was in and I was going

562
00:25:47,400 --> 00:25:51,001
Speaker 3: to be there forever. And he just turned around and said,

563
00:25:51,481 --> 00:25:54,561
Speaker 3: but you're lucky, Mark. We knew they were going to

564
00:25:54,600 --> 00:25:57,240
Speaker 3: get it, and you're lucky it was the Now, just

565
00:25:57,521 --> 00:25:59,640
Speaker 3: go back out of the yards, keep your hands to yourself,

566
00:25:59,681 --> 00:26:00,281
Speaker 3: and I don't want.

567
00:26:00,160 --> 00:26:00,961
Speaker 2: To hear from you again.

568
00:26:01,721 --> 00:26:03,401
Speaker 1: But see, now you've got a big problem because you're

569
00:26:03,400 --> 00:26:05,801
Speaker 1: going to be there for the next little anyway, because

570
00:26:05,801 --> 00:26:08,160
Speaker 1: of what you're facing if you get a custodial sentence,

571
00:26:08,160 --> 00:26:10,720
Speaker 1: because you're on ramand now, but your face with the

572
00:26:10,761 --> 00:26:13,840
Speaker 1: possibility of a few more of mister Newt and his

573
00:26:13,840 --> 00:26:17,441
Speaker 1: friends ganging up on you and possibly creating a few

574
00:26:17,481 --> 00:26:21,081
Speaker 1: new holes in you with prison shives and knives and whatnot.

575
00:26:21,681 --> 00:26:24,721
Speaker 1: So you must be thinking of the possible consequences here.

576
00:26:25,160 --> 00:26:29,521
Speaker 1: So now your appearance in court has a much higher

577
00:26:29,600 --> 00:26:30,880
Speaker 1: set of stakes around it.

578
00:26:32,360 --> 00:26:35,241
Speaker 2: Yeah, it escalated real quick. And every day.

579
00:26:35,041 --> 00:26:37,600
Speaker 3: In there there was a few more Vietnamese coming in

580
00:26:37,681 --> 00:26:39,880
Speaker 3: every day, you know what I mean. I think there

581
00:26:39,880 --> 00:26:42,600
Speaker 3: were three, but the next day there was five, the

582
00:26:42,640 --> 00:26:45,120
Speaker 3: next day there was seven. And they were all teaming up,

583
00:26:45,521 --> 00:26:47,400
Speaker 3: and we had the numbers at the start, and I

584
00:26:47,441 --> 00:26:51,201
Speaker 3: got introduced to a group that was really happy with

585
00:26:51,241 --> 00:26:54,281
Speaker 3: what happened and what I done. And so I got

586
00:26:54,281 --> 00:26:57,161
Speaker 3: invited up into the group because my bed was right

587
00:26:57,441 --> 00:27:00,721
Speaker 3: the very last bed with Paul Melland's sleep underneath me.

588
00:27:00,801 --> 00:27:02,840
Speaker 3: He goes on top. Bunk was right near the four

589
00:27:03,120 --> 00:27:07,280
Speaker 3: talet bowls, one remand in the eighty bed dorm. So

590
00:27:07,441 --> 00:27:10,600
Speaker 3: you know, everyone's going to the tall every five minutes

591
00:27:11,080 --> 00:27:11,961
Speaker 3: on all four balls.

592
00:27:12,001 --> 00:27:13,721
Speaker 2: It was the worse bed, you know what I mean.

593
00:27:14,120 --> 00:27:17,240
Speaker 3: Yeah, So the boys that were half way up, Mick

594
00:27:17,321 --> 00:27:19,201
Speaker 3: All and Mick Devil and that I was taking about

595
00:27:19,201 --> 00:27:21,840
Speaker 3: them yesterday and that. But they come down and said

596
00:27:21,840 --> 00:27:23,921
Speaker 3: to me, you muster up out the front of here,

597
00:27:24,080 --> 00:27:26,240
Speaker 3: you know, in that future bed in the morning for

598
00:27:26,281 --> 00:27:29,441
Speaker 3: the screws. You come and sleep up with us here.

599
00:27:30,201 --> 00:27:32,521
Speaker 3: And they used to bring the bunks together and the

600
00:27:32,561 --> 00:27:35,360
Speaker 3: old army blankets and put them over and make like

601
00:27:35,400 --> 00:27:37,920
Speaker 3: an entrance you could walk in through and all the

602
00:27:37,961 --> 00:27:41,001
Speaker 3: boys in there, you know, and bring three bunks to

603
00:27:41,041 --> 00:27:43,720
Speaker 3: It was like a little whole area and it all

604
00:27:43,721 --> 00:27:45,520
Speaker 3: sit there, but no one could come in. There's an

605
00:27:45,640 --> 00:27:48,080
Speaker 3: entry and an exit, you know, but no one else

606
00:27:48,160 --> 00:27:50,720
Speaker 3: that wasn't in the crew could come into that little

607
00:27:50,840 --> 00:27:53,361
Speaker 3: tent because the boys that were running the dorm were

608
00:27:53,400 --> 00:27:56,720
Speaker 3: in there. So we had the numbers, but the Vietna knees,

609
00:27:57,360 --> 00:27:59,120
Speaker 3: you know, started getting the numbers, you know.

610
00:27:59,721 --> 00:28:02,281
Speaker 2: But still right, I was still right, you know, but

611
00:28:02,400 --> 00:28:02,761
Speaker 2: you were in.

612
00:28:02,801 --> 00:28:04,921
Speaker 1: Danger of eventually facing a fair fight.

613
00:28:07,360 --> 00:28:09,761
Speaker 3: Yeah, well I got given her. They said it was

614
00:28:09,761 --> 00:28:10,600
Speaker 3: the best ship in.

615
00:28:10,521 --> 00:28:11,881
Speaker 2: There that they could give me.

616
00:28:12,120 --> 00:28:14,360
Speaker 3: But like adding the yards the next day and that

617
00:28:14,640 --> 00:28:18,001
Speaker 3: I remember three of them, very three four of them.

618
00:28:18,400 --> 00:28:20,640
Speaker 3: How they used to sit like everywhere you'd see him

619
00:28:20,640 --> 00:28:22,281
Speaker 3: in Sydney and in Swing gral On that you know,

620
00:28:22,281 --> 00:28:23,840
Speaker 3: when they're selling their drugs on the corner.

621
00:28:23,840 --> 00:28:26,360
Speaker 2: They sit with one knee on the ground and one

622
00:28:26,481 --> 00:28:26,840
Speaker 2: nay up.

623
00:28:26,880 --> 00:28:29,321
Speaker 3: They had their way to the Vietnam aze and they sort

624
00:28:29,321 --> 00:28:31,201
Speaker 3: of sit with their elbows across the top.

625
00:28:31,001 --> 00:28:31,561
Speaker 2: Of their knee.

626
00:28:31,840 --> 00:28:33,961
Speaker 3: That's how they were standing, sitting in the yard, and

627
00:28:34,041 --> 00:28:36,321
Speaker 3: so they could inside that knee.

628
00:28:36,321 --> 00:28:37,200
Speaker 2: They had their ships and.

629
00:28:37,201 --> 00:28:39,441
Speaker 3: I sharpen them on the concrete, you know, looking over

630
00:28:39,521 --> 00:28:41,361
Speaker 3: at me sharping the concrete. So I just had my

631
00:28:41,481 --> 00:28:44,281
Speaker 3: shipping in the top of my pants and just visible,

632
00:28:44,401 --> 00:28:47,200
Speaker 3: you know. But all the boys are taking bets on

633
00:28:47,241 --> 00:28:51,681
Speaker 3: the outcome and some was saying they're betting white oxes

634
00:28:51,721 --> 00:28:53,440
Speaker 3: and that saying, what the heck come was going to be.

635
00:28:53,521 --> 00:28:57,321
Speaker 3: Some were saying they'll kill him, They'll kill him, and

636
00:28:57,521 --> 00:29:00,041
Speaker 3: someone was saying, oh, she went pretty good, that young

637
00:29:00,081 --> 00:29:03,081
Speaker 3: color under the showers, you know, and I wouldn't underestimate them,

638
00:29:03,081 --> 00:29:05,641
Speaker 3: but you know, I had a few friends. Yeah, they

639
00:29:05,641 --> 00:29:07,601
Speaker 3: were taking bets on what the air come was going.

640
00:29:07,521 --> 00:29:12,121
Speaker 1: To be, right, because those moments inside it's when you

641
00:29:12,201 --> 00:29:16,681
Speaker 1: establish a reputation and it probably helps other people stay

642
00:29:16,681 --> 00:29:17,401
Speaker 1: away from you.

643
00:29:19,481 --> 00:29:21,721
Speaker 3: Well, it was pretty good, and really how it happened

644
00:29:21,761 --> 00:29:24,161
Speaker 3: in the end, because I've got a bit of respect

645
00:29:24,201 --> 00:29:27,641
Speaker 3: straight up, I was looking back on it. I didn't

646
00:29:27,641 --> 00:29:30,361
Speaker 3: have to sleep and smell all that toilet shit all

647
00:29:30,401 --> 00:29:32,721
Speaker 3: the time. Anyway, I got invited halfway up and then

648
00:29:32,761 --> 00:29:34,761
Speaker 3: you know all the food and everything. They had extras

649
00:29:34,761 --> 00:29:38,201
Speaker 3: and stuff. So yeah, it was really good. Vince Pino

650
00:29:38,281 --> 00:29:40,521
Speaker 3: from Avondale, heiss and I made of my men in there.

651
00:29:40,561 --> 00:29:43,321
Speaker 3: He was with me in there, and Paul and Meck

652
00:29:43,681 --> 00:29:47,561
Speaker 3: Devlon Hall and yeah, a few others, but we had

653
00:29:47,561 --> 00:29:48,960
Speaker 3: the numbers at that stage, you know.

654
00:29:50,081 --> 00:29:53,081
Speaker 1: So you survived that period and you get to court.

655
00:29:53,201 --> 00:29:53,720
Speaker 1: What happened.

656
00:29:53,721 --> 00:29:59,121
Speaker 3: Then, Yeah, well I'd seen John Brady, you know, went

657
00:29:59,161 --> 00:30:01,721
Speaker 3: to Assumption College with Brian Burke. You see, he was

658
00:30:01,761 --> 00:30:03,561
Speaker 3: one of the best barrisses in Melbourne at the time.

659
00:30:04,001 --> 00:30:06,961
Speaker 3: You couldn't even get into Sea. Brian wouldn't matter even

660
00:30:07,001 --> 00:30:09,801
Speaker 3: how much you had, you know, like he was that up.

661
00:30:09,841 --> 00:30:12,001
Speaker 3: But he knew John threw some from Kye. John rang

662
00:30:12,041 --> 00:30:14,760
Speaker 3: him up and said I got a student bingo. So

663
00:30:15,001 --> 00:30:15,601
Speaker 3: we went and.

664
00:30:15,521 --> 00:30:17,921
Speaker 2: Seen Brian Burke and his offices in Melbourne. Burke story.

665
00:30:17,961 --> 00:30:20,601
Speaker 1: I think Brian Burke is the best barrister in Victoria

666
00:30:20,841 --> 00:30:23,720
Speaker 1: never to become a QC. Yeah right, because he was

667
00:30:23,761 --> 00:30:26,641
Speaker 1: too much of an Irishman, too much of a rebel,

668
00:30:27,121 --> 00:30:30,641
Speaker 1: and he was regarded as the defendant's barrister.

669
00:30:30,761 --> 00:30:33,041
Speaker 3: You're lucky getting Brian Burke. What a great fellow, wasn't

670
00:30:33,041 --> 00:30:35,441
Speaker 3: I ever? And what a privilege it was to meet

671
00:30:35,521 --> 00:30:37,361
Speaker 3: him too. And I'll just never ever forget what he

672
00:30:37,401 --> 00:30:40,001
Speaker 3: said to me, you know, in what we were confronting

673
00:30:40,041 --> 00:30:41,760
Speaker 3: and I was trying to take everything on all at

674
00:30:41,801 --> 00:30:44,481
Speaker 3: once and worried about everything. He just looked at me

675
00:30:44,561 --> 00:30:47,241
Speaker 3: and he glen over his big desk and he just said, Mark,

676
00:30:47,881 --> 00:30:51,200
Speaker 3: he said, we'll just lay brick by brick.

677
00:30:52,201 --> 00:30:54,681
Speaker 1: So what was your defense in the end, what was

678
00:30:54,681 --> 00:30:55,321
Speaker 1: the strategy?

679
00:30:55,681 --> 00:30:59,200
Speaker 3: Well, I went to He put me onto this doctor

680
00:30:59,281 --> 00:31:03,401
Speaker 3: Eric Seal, who was like the head psychiatrist in had

681
00:31:03,481 --> 00:31:06,961
Speaker 3: been in Melbourne criminal side Kyaterest for a long long time.

682
00:31:07,721 --> 00:31:10,601
Speaker 3: He was actually not taking on any more clients, but

683
00:31:10,761 --> 00:31:14,081
Speaker 3: Bryan through John and meet and Brian, Brian you Eric

684
00:31:14,121 --> 00:31:18,641
Speaker 3: and actually took me on as his last client. And

685
00:31:18,961 --> 00:31:21,241
Speaker 3: I seen Eric Seal got in a German in the

686
00:31:21,321 --> 00:31:24,081
Speaker 3: court case. He kept seeing doctor Eric Seal for quite

687
00:31:24,161 --> 00:31:28,481
Speaker 3: a while, kept me nose clean and you know, with

688
00:31:28,561 --> 00:31:31,721
Speaker 3: what had happened in my life and that I had

689
00:31:31,761 --> 00:31:34,681
Speaker 3: lost a lot of mates and I've just been surrounded

690
00:31:34,681 --> 00:31:36,961
Speaker 3: by death from the age of ten, did I don't reckon?

691
00:31:36,961 --> 00:31:39,681
Speaker 3: I had six or twelve months without losing someone that

692
00:31:39,841 --> 00:31:42,881
Speaker 3: was immediately side by side close to me.

693
00:31:42,961 --> 00:31:44,161
Speaker 2: It was just incredible.

694
00:31:44,481 --> 00:31:46,521
Speaker 3: I ran from death in Essendon and in the end

695
00:31:46,561 --> 00:31:49,081
Speaker 3: it was just so many but like and when that

696
00:31:49,161 --> 00:31:51,081
Speaker 3: sort of just unfolded to Eric and he's seen how

697
00:31:51,121 --> 00:31:53,521
Speaker 3: the way it was, you know, and what had happened,

698
00:31:53,561 --> 00:31:56,801
Speaker 3: and that to tell you the truth, Once Eric Seal

699
00:31:56,921 --> 00:31:59,121
Speaker 3: got up and they had what he had to say

700
00:31:59,161 --> 00:32:02,561
Speaker 3: about me, judge, and West wasn't going to go against

701
00:32:02,641 --> 00:32:03,881
Speaker 3: what he had to say, you know what I mean.

702
00:32:03,921 --> 00:32:07,801
Speaker 1: Oh, you got Ian West, your magistrate. Ian another friend of.

703
00:32:07,801 --> 00:32:09,721
Speaker 2: Mine, was one of the class cases.

704
00:32:09,801 --> 00:32:12,521
Speaker 1: Yeah, before he became the state coroner, which was a

705
00:32:12,521 --> 00:32:15,361
Speaker 1: bit later, but he was. You were absolutely blessed to

706
00:32:15,441 --> 00:32:18,961
Speaker 1: have Brian Burke in West as parents to a judge.

707
00:32:19,281 --> 00:32:22,761
Speaker 1: I mean in West has a reasonable, balanced and knowledgeable

708
00:32:23,081 --> 00:32:25,641
Speaker 1: advocates and judges victories have had.

709
00:32:26,921 --> 00:32:28,161
Speaker 3: I thought I was going to be jared. I thought

710
00:32:28,161 --> 00:32:30,321
Speaker 3: I was going to get a couple of years. But

711
00:32:30,841 --> 00:32:33,081
Speaker 3: you know, everything just tied in him when he spoke

712
00:32:33,721 --> 00:32:36,321
Speaker 3: and that and what he had to say. I've got

713
00:32:36,321 --> 00:32:37,681
Speaker 3: a clear recollection.

714
00:32:37,241 --> 00:32:39,721
Speaker 2: Of it all. You gave me a chance. I think

715
00:32:39,801 --> 00:32:40,481
Speaker 2: I thank him to that.

716
00:32:40,761 --> 00:32:44,201
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, And what what advice did he give you? Mark?

717
00:32:45,121 --> 00:32:48,441
Speaker 3: Just to keep saying doctor seal and try and get

718
00:32:48,441 --> 00:32:51,720
Speaker 3: back into me cricket, you know, follow me dreams and stuff.

719
00:32:51,961 --> 00:32:54,281
Speaker 3: But I did bail a lot for a long time.

720
00:32:54,281 --> 00:32:56,201
Speaker 3: But I did end up getting on top and doing

721
00:32:56,241 --> 00:32:57,721
Speaker 3: well in the end. But it took a long time.

722
00:32:58,881 --> 00:33:02,641
Speaker 1: Yeah, but you ended up getting what a suspended sentence.

723
00:33:04,041 --> 00:33:06,521
Speaker 2: I play guilty to everything I get.

724
00:33:06,561 --> 00:33:11,001
Speaker 3: I got the maximum amount of community service and had

725
00:33:11,041 --> 00:33:15,481
Speaker 3: to see certain psychiatrists and psychologists and be directed by

726
00:33:15,561 --> 00:33:17,881
Speaker 3: the Corps to do whatever I had to do. I

727
00:33:17,921 --> 00:33:20,440
Speaker 3: had to sign on three times a week for twelve

728
00:33:20,441 --> 00:33:22,960
Speaker 3: months or something like that too, And it was like

729
00:33:23,361 --> 00:33:25,601
Speaker 3: the most you could give me without jail and me,

730
00:33:25,841 --> 00:33:28,401
Speaker 3: you know, and under the most intensive division.

731
00:33:28,441 --> 00:33:30,641
Speaker 1: You know, well, because I think it's clever because the

732
00:33:30,721 --> 00:33:33,921
Speaker 1: short time that you were in jail, you're obviously a

733
00:33:33,921 --> 00:33:37,281
Speaker 1: powder keg. You're likely to go off and be involved

734
00:33:37,281 --> 00:33:41,200
Speaker 1: another offending inside jail, which would perpetuate your stay in jail.

735
00:33:41,641 --> 00:33:44,321
Speaker 1: So I think it was a wise decision to find

736
00:33:44,361 --> 00:33:45,881
Speaker 1: a way to keep you out of jail, to give

737
00:33:45,881 --> 00:33:49,041
Speaker 1: you another chance. What you did with that chance was

738
00:33:49,121 --> 00:33:49,681
Speaker 1: up to you.

739
00:33:50,401 --> 00:33:54,200
Speaker 3: What happened next, well, you know the russ threat that

740
00:33:54,281 --> 00:33:58,200
Speaker 3: was he had the Russell Street bombing. You know, I

741
00:33:58,241 --> 00:34:00,641
Speaker 3: believe it was less than a week before he sentenced me,

742
00:34:01,041 --> 00:34:04,681
Speaker 3: and then the Russell Street bombing went down. They sentenced me,

743
00:34:04,761 --> 00:34:07,201
Speaker 3: But I kept running a mark for a lot of years,

744
00:34:07,241 --> 00:34:11,000
Speaker 3: I tell you the truth. And yeah, no it took

745
00:34:11,081 --> 00:34:14,561
Speaker 3: a long, long long time. Yeah, my life hasn't been

746
00:34:14,921 --> 00:34:17,081
Speaker 3: much fun at all. It's only later in your life

747
00:34:17,121 --> 00:34:19,601
Speaker 3: that I really pulled it all together because of you boys.

748
00:34:19,681 --> 00:34:22,361
Speaker 3: You know, it's always being a struggle. Everywhere I've gone,

749
00:34:22,361 --> 00:34:23,041
Speaker 3: it's been hard.

750
00:34:24,281 --> 00:34:26,641
Speaker 1: The Russell Threat bombing was in March nineteen eighty six,

751
00:34:27,121 --> 00:34:32,801
Speaker 1: which poor Constable Angela Taylor lost her life and terrible

752
00:34:32,881 --> 00:34:35,001
Speaker 1: in West. Your magistrate was actually caught up in that.

753
00:34:35,681 --> 00:34:39,681
Speaker 1: He wasn't badly injured and he's actually recovered. But you know,

754
00:34:40,161 --> 00:34:42,641
Speaker 1: worse was to come for you, because, like I say,

755
00:34:42,921 --> 00:34:47,401
Speaker 1: when I hear your story, there's mental health challenges at

756
00:34:47,441 --> 00:34:50,001
Speaker 1: the center of it. And I guess the advice to

757
00:34:50,041 --> 00:34:53,121
Speaker 1: continue having therapy might have been the answer. But I

758
00:34:53,121 --> 00:34:54,961
Speaker 1: guess it's hard on the outside. You've got a living

759
00:34:55,361 --> 00:34:57,601
Speaker 1: you know, you get influenced by people you've met. You've

760
00:34:57,641 --> 00:35:01,201
Speaker 1: got a poor self image about yourself and as you say,

761
00:35:01,241 --> 00:35:02,241
Speaker 1: you kept running a muk.

762
00:35:03,001 --> 00:35:06,441
Speaker 3: Well, I got up and left, you know. And what

763
00:35:06,561 --> 00:35:10,841
Speaker 3: I found the hardest here in Australia right is when

764
00:35:10,841 --> 00:35:13,801
Speaker 3: you're from Melbourne or Victoria and you venture out to

765
00:35:13,801 --> 00:35:17,681
Speaker 3: say New South Wales or Western Australia, like I have.

766
00:35:18,321 --> 00:35:22,201
Speaker 3: When I left Melbourne and went up to Eden, Saint

767
00:35:22,241 --> 00:35:25,441
Speaker 3: Georgia or Warick Country. When the Melbourne Storm had just

768
00:35:25,641 --> 00:35:29,161
Speaker 3: entered the NRL and I'd come from Melbourne. I rocked

769
00:35:29,201 --> 00:35:31,601
Speaker 3: up in a Melbourne Storm jumper in ninety nine and

770
00:35:31,601 --> 00:35:34,561
Speaker 3: they win the Grand Final. I was hated straight away

771
00:35:34,721 --> 00:35:37,521
Speaker 3: in the town and I got two young boys, and

772
00:35:37,921 --> 00:35:40,401
Speaker 3: because I barracked for the Melbourne Storm and it was

773
00:35:40,401 --> 00:35:43,681
Speaker 3: a Saint Georgia La Waura area and they the local

774
00:35:43,681 --> 00:35:47,041
Speaker 3: team had Saint George Laaura jumpers and the Melbourne Storm

775
00:35:47,041 --> 00:35:48,961
Speaker 3: beat them in the Grand Final and non baron.

776
00:35:49,801 --> 00:35:51,441
Speaker 2: I was instantly hated.

777
00:35:51,161 --> 00:35:53,601
Speaker 3: You know, in the town, so and trying to set

778
00:35:53,681 --> 00:35:56,201
Speaker 3: up and get somewhere, and I was no one knew

779
00:35:56,241 --> 00:35:59,321
Speaker 3: me and the only way I knew to do was

780
00:35:59,441 --> 00:35:59,881
Speaker 3: to fight.

781
00:36:00,801 --> 00:36:02,681
Speaker 1: Well, I guess you probably weren't slow on letting them

782
00:36:02,681 --> 00:36:04,561
Speaker 1: know about the Storm's success either.

783
00:36:05,121 --> 00:36:08,041
Speaker 3: Imagine, Yeah, that's a funny story. You know what I've

784
00:36:08,081 --> 00:36:10,960
Speaker 3: done after they won it? When Monday dropped the ball,

785
00:36:11,001 --> 00:36:13,081
Speaker 3: I put the Melbourne Storm jump and I rocked straight

786
00:36:13,161 --> 00:36:15,481
Speaker 3: up the middle of the main street of Urden. That's

787
00:36:15,521 --> 00:36:17,721
Speaker 3: a great sudden in the hotel that he jump on

788
00:36:18,041 --> 00:36:20,321
Speaker 3: and they were all banging on the windows of the pub.

789
00:36:21,041 --> 00:36:23,161
Speaker 3: They wanted to pat and I'm calling them out and

790
00:36:23,201 --> 00:36:25,681
Speaker 3: that you know, I'm gone go to the storm, you know.

791
00:36:26,201 --> 00:36:27,041
Speaker 2: Yeah they were shattering.

792
00:36:28,321 --> 00:36:31,481
Speaker 1: Yes, you're being a provocative little ship basically, but there

793
00:36:31,481 --> 00:36:31,721
Speaker 1: you go.

794
00:36:31,841 --> 00:36:32,801
Speaker 2: Oh well, well you.

795
00:36:32,841 --> 00:36:35,681
Speaker 3: Had a barracker of footy clothes, only it's only footy NRL.

796
00:36:35,801 --> 00:36:37,401
Speaker 2: You know you had a barra few side.

797
00:36:37,481 --> 00:36:40,441
Speaker 1: That's true, But you found your way into jails in

798
00:36:40,521 --> 00:36:43,001
Speaker 1: two other states? How did that transpire?

799
00:36:43,041 --> 00:36:51,401
Speaker 3: Mark a hanging Vale, Western Australia after that, so yeah,

800
00:36:51,561 --> 00:36:52,681
Speaker 3: that was another fight.

801
00:36:53,281 --> 00:36:54,960
Speaker 2: But yeah, the fellow lied.

802
00:36:55,081 --> 00:36:57,041
Speaker 3: You know, he can hit me first as a road

803
00:36:57,161 --> 00:36:59,961
Speaker 3: rage incident and you can hit me. I ended up

804
00:37:00,881 --> 00:37:04,121
Speaker 3: getting him down and pretty bad dummage to him, which

805
00:37:04,121 --> 00:37:06,081
Speaker 3: I regret doing. I I went to be too far

806
00:37:06,201 --> 00:37:09,041
Speaker 3: on him. Actually I ended up gunning the Canning Vale there.

807
00:37:09,041 --> 00:37:12,281
Speaker 3: But he lied in court and I called another witness

808
00:37:12,361 --> 00:37:14,440
Speaker 3: and appealed and ended up winning that court case as

809
00:37:14,441 --> 00:37:17,601
Speaker 3: he actually lied because he actually did hit me first. Yeah,

810
00:37:17,641 --> 00:37:20,241
Speaker 3: but he didn't say that he did, but we brought

811
00:37:20,321 --> 00:37:22,521
Speaker 3: up a witness that seen aren't the only thing they

812
00:37:22,601 --> 00:37:23,881
Speaker 3: seen was him me first.

813
00:37:25,121 --> 00:37:27,161
Speaker 2: Yeah, but I did go too far on him.

814
00:37:28,601 --> 00:37:30,281
Speaker 1: So you did some jol over.

815
00:37:30,121 --> 00:37:31,960
Speaker 2: That Canning Vale.

816
00:37:32,041 --> 00:37:34,001
Speaker 3: Yeah, I was only there for a short time and

817
00:37:34,081 --> 00:37:37,001
Speaker 3: didn't have much trouble there. Then I went back to

818
00:37:37,081 --> 00:37:39,921
Speaker 3: Victoria and up to Eden, and I ended up having

819
00:37:39,961 --> 00:37:43,561
Speaker 3: some fights with those local rugby players in Eden. One incident,

820
00:37:43,601 --> 00:37:47,721
Speaker 3: I got my finger bitten off and another instant, the

821
00:37:47,761 --> 00:37:50,441
Speaker 3: front rail rugby player got spent quite a bit of

822
00:37:50,481 --> 00:37:52,121
Speaker 3: time hoss one and stuff, give me a good iron.

823
00:37:52,201 --> 00:37:55,201
Speaker 3: And I ended up going to Alburn and then dan A,

824
00:37:55,361 --> 00:37:57,681
Speaker 3: Juney and tumber rumber But I got into a big

825
00:37:57,721 --> 00:38:03,081
Speaker 3: fight down there at tumber Rumba, Yeah, with the Macedonians

826
00:38:03,081 --> 00:38:05,121
Speaker 3: and Serbians and Lebanese and all that.

827
00:38:05,241 --> 00:38:05,961
Speaker 2: Yeah, I fell out with.

828
00:38:06,001 --> 00:38:08,881
Speaker 3: Had a big fight in there and got tipped out

829
00:38:08,921 --> 00:38:10,721
Speaker 3: of there and had to go to Juney and back

830
00:38:10,761 --> 00:38:11,441
Speaker 3: to Golden.

831
00:38:12,081 --> 00:38:13,961
Speaker 1: Some serious jails Golben in particular.

832
00:38:14,641 --> 00:38:19,201
Speaker 3: Yeah, Golden very much like Pantridge, very very similar. I'd

833
00:38:19,201 --> 00:38:22,761
Speaker 3: say we built a snow man at Golden one time

834
00:38:22,841 --> 00:38:26,921
Speaker 3: there under the yards there, So that's how cold Golden is.

835
00:38:27,841 --> 00:38:29,321
Speaker 1: I didn't mind me saying this mark because I think

836
00:38:29,361 --> 00:38:31,881
Speaker 1: we can speak freely that it was your mouth and

837
00:38:31,921 --> 00:38:35,401
Speaker 1: your fists that gave you the most trouble and led

838
00:38:35,441 --> 00:38:37,481
Speaker 1: to the loss of your freedom time and time again.

839
00:38:38,041 --> 00:38:41,961
Speaker 1: When did you learn self control and begin to live

840
00:38:41,961 --> 00:38:45,441
Speaker 1: a life that wasn't controlled by your reaction to others.

841
00:38:46,681 --> 00:38:49,361
Speaker 3: I still have trouble now, mate, Yeah, I still have

842
00:38:49,401 --> 00:38:50,201
Speaker 3: real trouble with that.

843
00:38:50,961 --> 00:38:51,201
Speaker 1: You know.

844
00:38:51,401 --> 00:38:53,841
Speaker 2: I just sort of wait for people.

845
00:38:54,241 --> 00:38:56,241
Speaker 3: Human beings. They do my heading, you know. I just

846
00:38:56,281 --> 00:38:57,761
Speaker 3: try and cruise along in life.

847
00:38:58,481 --> 00:39:01,081
Speaker 2: I don't know what. I just come.

848
00:39:00,961 --> 00:39:05,321
Speaker 3: Across people that are just so totally disrespectful and treating

849
00:39:05,321 --> 00:39:07,881
Speaker 3: me like a fool and a clown, and I just

850
00:39:08,001 --> 00:39:10,721
Speaker 3: let them go along and go along and just treat

851
00:39:10,761 --> 00:39:12,881
Speaker 3: me how they want to. But in the end, it's

852
00:39:12,881 --> 00:39:15,561
Speaker 3: inevitable what's going to happen? You know, there's always an

853
00:39:15,601 --> 00:39:16,601
Speaker 3: explosion at the end.

854
00:39:17,321 --> 00:39:20,401
Speaker 1: Yeah, because you're now sixty years of age, you got

855
00:39:20,401 --> 00:39:23,721
Speaker 1: two beautiful sons. How do you resolve all this in

856
00:39:23,761 --> 00:39:25,601
Speaker 1: the end? I know you've got this court case with

857
00:39:25,721 --> 00:39:27,441
Speaker 1: the Catholic Church. Do you think that's going to be

858
00:39:27,441 --> 00:39:30,921
Speaker 1: a source of resolution for you? Yeah?

859
00:39:30,921 --> 00:39:35,001
Speaker 3: Well, what I want to do now, I've cut the

860
00:39:35,041 --> 00:39:37,681
Speaker 3: olive brands into the tree right back, you know, and

861
00:39:37,801 --> 00:39:40,001
Speaker 3: sort of when you go and move into state and

862
00:39:40,041 --> 00:39:43,361
Speaker 3: try and set up with a family, and you're a male.

863
00:39:43,561 --> 00:39:48,321
Speaker 3: You know, it's really really really hard, yeah, really hard

864
00:39:48,481 --> 00:39:50,841
Speaker 3: to rock up to a town with two boys and

865
00:39:50,881 --> 00:39:52,681
Speaker 3: a missus and say well I'm here.

866
00:39:52,801 --> 00:39:55,081
Speaker 2: You know, it's really hard.

867
00:39:55,321 --> 00:39:58,481
Speaker 3: Even Western Australian here two four six all vixer pricks

868
00:39:59,041 --> 00:40:01,921
Speaker 3: and I'm a Prictorian when I first got here, right,

869
00:40:02,041 --> 00:40:06,361
Speaker 3: so they don't like us. But now don't worry about,

870
00:40:06,721 --> 00:40:09,001
Speaker 3: like an asked, Victorians, because the Indians and all that

871
00:40:09,161 --> 00:40:11,561
Speaker 3: coming in, so in, the Africans and all that. So

872
00:40:12,201 --> 00:40:14,001
Speaker 3: that's what I ran from Melbourne for. And now they're

873
00:40:14,001 --> 00:40:15,761
Speaker 3: going to get a miss So I.

874
00:40:15,761 --> 00:40:18,561
Speaker 1: Spent two years in Perst doing a radio show, six

875
00:40:18,641 --> 00:40:21,761
Speaker 1: per hour drive show, and they had me pegged as

876
00:40:21,761 --> 00:40:24,521
Speaker 1: a Victorian. I' from Sydney originally they had me pegged

877
00:40:24,521 --> 00:40:26,921
Speaker 1: as a Victorian and they would queue up to yell

878
00:40:26,961 --> 00:40:31,121
Speaker 1: at me every afternoon, every afternoon. What did I know

879
00:40:31,681 --> 00:40:34,521
Speaker 1: from the Eastern States? What are you talking about? And

880
00:40:34,561 --> 00:40:37,641
Speaker 1: I couldn't dance a football team I supported. Sorry to

881
00:40:37,641 --> 00:40:40,281
Speaker 1: all the West Australian listeners, but that's exactly what happened.

882
00:40:40,161 --> 00:40:41,241
Speaker 2: Was it.

883
00:40:41,441 --> 00:40:45,401
Speaker 1: That was Carlton, which is probably worse, but in the end,

884
00:40:45,641 --> 00:40:47,801
Speaker 1: in the end, I guess I found a way to

885
00:40:47,841 --> 00:40:50,241
Speaker 1: control all that. But you know, do you think there's

886
00:40:50,241 --> 00:40:51,921
Speaker 1: a happy ending for you? Out of all west Mark?

887
00:40:51,921 --> 00:40:53,481
Speaker 1: Do you think there's days? I mean, you should be

888
00:40:53,481 --> 00:40:54,001
Speaker 1: a happy ending.

889
00:40:54,041 --> 00:40:56,441
Speaker 3: Now you've got well, there is a happy end. And

890
00:40:56,481 --> 00:40:58,721
Speaker 3: you know, because I've done well in the end. I've

891
00:40:58,721 --> 00:41:01,761
Speaker 3: got a small mortgage on my home here. I'm retired

892
00:41:02,961 --> 00:41:05,881
Speaker 3: buy and sell. I went into and Teaks and done

893
00:41:05,921 --> 00:41:08,121
Speaker 3: really well out of that. My son's done. Really, I

894
00:41:08,121 --> 00:41:09,721
Speaker 3: don't have to worry about me. Boys not having a

895
00:41:09,801 --> 00:41:12,761
Speaker 3: roof over their head. I've had a cancer battle. I've

896
00:41:12,761 --> 00:41:16,121
Speaker 3: been battling cancer to seven years. I've had a resection,

897
00:41:16,361 --> 00:41:22,241
Speaker 3: I've had two chemos and four radiation therapies. I've got

898
00:41:22,241 --> 00:41:26,161
Speaker 3: another what they call elapse or adaptation or something happened

899
00:41:26,201 --> 00:41:27,961
Speaker 3: where they drop a hot water on the last year

900
00:41:28,241 --> 00:41:30,321
Speaker 3: because I'll go on from four tumbors to one. I've

901
00:41:30,321 --> 00:41:32,281
Speaker 3: had a third of me liver cut out. So yeah,

902
00:41:32,321 --> 00:41:35,121
Speaker 3: but I'm feeling strong and i just want to be

903
00:41:35,161 --> 00:41:37,441
Speaker 3: on my own. Made of minds come to live me

904
00:41:37,641 --> 00:41:41,401
Speaker 3: with me from Melbourne. He's Australian boxing champion and then

905
00:41:41,521 --> 00:41:43,361
Speaker 3: so he's helped me out of me the boxing gym.

906
00:41:43,361 --> 00:41:45,161
Speaker 3: I've got a boxing gym at home and just trying

907
00:41:45,161 --> 00:41:46,121
Speaker 3: a few fighters at home.

908
00:41:46,321 --> 00:41:47,201
Speaker 1: Good good.

909
00:41:47,881 --> 00:41:51,561
Speaker 3: You have to drink these days, I have one. I

910
00:41:51,601 --> 00:41:53,401
Speaker 3: didn't have one for twelve months. But I lost my

911
00:41:53,481 --> 00:41:58,761
Speaker 3: partner three months ago, and I must mean I get hit.

912
00:41:58,801 --> 00:42:02,001
Speaker 3: It was a terrible death and I got back on

913
00:42:02,041 --> 00:42:03,961
Speaker 3: it there. But I am sober again.

914
00:42:05,121 --> 00:42:07,241
Speaker 1: Yeah. When you think of some of the people we've

915
00:42:07,281 --> 00:42:09,801
Speaker 1: talked about in this discussion, a lot of mad dead,

916
00:42:10,801 --> 00:42:13,121
Speaker 1: do you feel I'm not going to say lucky, but

917
00:42:13,601 --> 00:42:16,761
Speaker 1: you know how things have turned out. You've had a

918
00:42:16,761 --> 00:42:20,761
Speaker 1: bit of good fortune, despite the cancer, the jail, despite

919
00:42:21,281 --> 00:42:22,001
Speaker 1: all these things.

920
00:42:23,601 --> 00:42:25,521
Speaker 3: When I look at it right and I look for

921
00:42:25,561 --> 00:42:28,241
Speaker 3: an answer about what it's all been about my life,

922
00:42:28,881 --> 00:42:32,321
Speaker 3: the only conclusion that I can come to and how

923
00:42:32,521 --> 00:42:36,961
Speaker 3: why I am still here, is that someone's keeping me

924
00:42:37,001 --> 00:42:40,601
Speaker 3: here to sort these things out. I kept keep getting

925
00:42:41,041 --> 00:42:44,601
Speaker 3: thrown into situations where people need help and stuff, and

926
00:42:44,681 --> 00:42:45,881
Speaker 3: I haven't been able to turn me.

927
00:42:45,921 --> 00:42:46,761
Speaker 2: Back on it. You know.

928
00:42:47,321 --> 00:42:49,841
Speaker 3: So I actually have started going to church and I

929
00:42:49,881 --> 00:42:54,081
Speaker 3: have started praying. Right, I'm only mentioning that because I

930
00:42:54,201 --> 00:42:58,721
Speaker 3: was an atheist, but it's been incredible because I did

931
00:42:58,801 --> 00:43:00,921
Speaker 3: reach out and ask, and I have been answered in

932
00:43:00,961 --> 00:43:04,361
Speaker 3: a few in all areas actually, and it's bying me away.

933
00:43:04,481 --> 00:43:08,721
Speaker 3: So I've got my own little thing happening. I haven't

934
00:43:08,761 --> 00:43:11,681
Speaker 3: been going back to church. I am praying, and I

935
00:43:11,721 --> 00:43:16,001
Speaker 3: am sure to come to an understanding I believe is

936
00:43:16,241 --> 00:43:17,961
Speaker 3: actually what my life's been all about.

937
00:43:18,041 --> 00:43:20,441
Speaker 1: You good, good, Listen. We're never going to get to

938
00:43:20,481 --> 00:43:23,081
Speaker 1: the meaning of life, but we can concentrate on having

939
00:43:23,081 --> 00:43:27,081
Speaker 1: a purpose. If that's to help other people to raise

940
00:43:27,081 --> 00:43:30,281
Speaker 1: our kids, well that's enough. Purpose is more than enough.

941
00:43:30,281 --> 00:43:33,001
Speaker 1: And I think if you're finding solace praying or in church,

942
00:43:33,041 --> 00:43:34,801
Speaker 1: good luck to you. I think it's fantastic and I'd

943
00:43:34,881 --> 00:43:37,601
Speaker 1: rather people believe in something other than nothing. I think

944
00:43:37,601 --> 00:43:39,761
Speaker 1: it's a pretty dull life of being an atheist. I mean,

945
00:43:39,801 --> 00:43:42,001
Speaker 1: you think, how can you be so bloody sure? No

946
00:43:42,081 --> 00:43:44,241
Speaker 1: one's been there, no one's come back, so the can't

947
00:43:44,241 --> 00:43:46,161
Speaker 1: tell you what's there. I beg an atheist is I'll

948
00:43:46,161 --> 00:43:47,161
Speaker 1: call bullshit on that one.

949
00:43:47,681 --> 00:43:50,041
Speaker 3: But I'll tell you what Adam Fair think and explow

950
00:43:50,121 --> 00:43:54,281
Speaker 3: me away because at the lowest point, the last twelve

951
00:43:54,321 --> 00:43:56,761
Speaker 3: months have been really hecktic. Two years I was in

952
00:43:56,801 --> 00:44:01,520
Speaker 3: a relationship that was really trying but the last thing

953
00:44:01,601 --> 00:44:03,681
Speaker 3: I could possibly do was pray, and I asked for

954
00:44:03,721 --> 00:44:07,561
Speaker 3: a sign, and within seconds I got the sign that

955
00:44:07,601 --> 00:44:09,721
Speaker 3: I needed. And it didn't happen once, it happened three

956
00:44:09,841 --> 00:44:12,241
Speaker 3: or four times. There's a couple of other things that

957
00:44:12,281 --> 00:44:14,961
Speaker 3: I could mention that is so out of this world.

958
00:44:15,001 --> 00:44:18,361
Speaker 3: And I'm such a realist that I can't not acknowledge

959
00:44:18,401 --> 00:44:19,481
Speaker 3: it fair enough.

960
00:44:19,681 --> 00:44:21,721
Speaker 1: Whatever works. And the thing is, the thing is you

961
00:44:21,801 --> 00:44:26,161
Speaker 1: start seeing signs. You start seeing signs when your eyes

962
00:44:26,161 --> 00:44:31,001
Speaker 1: are open, right, yeah, And I think that's an important aspect.

963
00:44:31,001 --> 00:44:32,761
Speaker 1: And I think one thing you have begun to do,

964
00:44:32,801 --> 00:44:35,841
Speaker 1: which I thoroughly recommend anybody who's had a life like yours,

965
00:44:36,121 --> 00:44:38,001
Speaker 1: is to sit down and write about it. And you

966
00:44:38,081 --> 00:44:41,561
Speaker 1: sent me a thousand pages dealing with the confrontation with

967
00:44:41,601 --> 00:44:46,121
Speaker 1: mister Newan and so forth, and you're right, well, so

968
00:44:46,721 --> 00:44:48,761
Speaker 1: I'd keep writing those things, even if it's just for

969
00:44:48,801 --> 00:44:52,281
Speaker 1: yourself and for your kids, so people can understand what

970
00:44:52,361 --> 00:44:55,801
Speaker 1: your life's been like. And I really, I really admire

971
00:44:55,841 --> 00:44:57,721
Speaker 1: you for reaching out to me to share this because

972
00:44:57,721 --> 00:45:00,801
Speaker 1: I think that is part of your redemption. And I

973
00:45:00,801 --> 00:45:03,561
Speaker 1: think you do feel regrets for those acts of violence.

974
00:45:03,601 --> 00:45:07,161
Speaker 3: You know a lot of great. Yeah, yeah, I ripped

975
00:45:07,201 --> 00:45:09,801
Speaker 3: yourself off. I let a lot of people down. Well,

976
00:45:10,081 --> 00:45:12,001
Speaker 3: I was just young and I didn't know how to

977
00:45:12,041 --> 00:45:15,241
Speaker 3: handle and I didn't have anyone around me to cared

978
00:45:15,361 --> 00:45:16,960
Speaker 3: enough to guide me through that hard time.

979
00:45:17,001 --> 00:45:17,161
Speaker 2: You know.

980
00:45:17,921 --> 00:45:20,441
Speaker 3: That's why I can't walk away from people now that

981
00:45:20,561 --> 00:45:23,401
Speaker 3: need help, you know, because at the boxing gmail I've

982
00:45:23,401 --> 00:45:26,601
Speaker 3: put it's been a drug rehab At different times. I'll

983
00:45:26,601 --> 00:45:29,481
Speaker 3: put caravans up the side of my house and taken

984
00:45:29,521 --> 00:45:31,641
Speaker 3: people in from jail and dried about off drugs and

985
00:45:31,641 --> 00:45:33,401
Speaker 3: got them a fight and got them well, and then

986
00:45:33,401 --> 00:45:36,520
Speaker 3: they've gone back into jail. And in the community here

987
00:45:36,561 --> 00:45:39,440
Speaker 3: probably I've cleaned up more drug addicts than anyone has

988
00:45:39,681 --> 00:45:41,721
Speaker 3: in the hole of bustle that there's no we're here

989
00:45:41,761 --> 00:45:44,401
Speaker 3: for them. I've cleaned them up and dried them up

990
00:45:44,441 --> 00:45:46,321
Speaker 3: at home because there's nothing available.

991
00:45:46,401 --> 00:45:49,281
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's tremendous. That's really good. That's actually putting back

992
00:45:49,321 --> 00:45:51,841
Speaker 1: in and that's that's wonderful to hear. And you know,

993
00:45:52,121 --> 00:45:53,961
Speaker 1: I mean, I think the majority of young men who

994
00:45:54,001 --> 00:45:57,081
Speaker 1: are in Australian prisons today are doing between six and

995
00:45:57,161 --> 00:46:01,801
Speaker 1: eighteen months for drug related issues. They're not big time criminals.

996
00:46:01,801 --> 00:46:06,721
Speaker 1: They're not organized crime gurus, and they end up just

997
00:46:06,921 --> 00:46:10,441
Speaker 1: like you, going back into jail, back into jail, sometimes

998
00:46:10,481 --> 00:46:14,281
Speaker 1: even getting more time for those sort of fights you're describing.

999
00:46:14,441 --> 00:46:16,801
Speaker 1: What advice would you give to young men listening to

1000
00:46:16,881 --> 00:46:20,081
Speaker 1: this now to try to avoid what you went through?

1001
00:46:21,521 --> 00:46:24,921
Speaker 2: Look, you know this is how I look at life.

1002
00:46:24,961 --> 00:46:28,441
Speaker 3: Hey, I look at life as planning a game of

1003
00:46:28,561 --> 00:46:30,721
Speaker 3: cards to half a dozen people. You know, we all

1004
00:46:30,761 --> 00:46:34,961
Speaker 3: get delta hand. You know, you get the four races.

1005
00:46:35,241 --> 00:46:38,201
Speaker 3: I get the joker, the nine, the jack, and I

1006
00:46:38,241 --> 00:46:40,681
Speaker 3: throw them out and trying to But you'll hold the

1007
00:46:40,681 --> 00:46:43,481
Speaker 3: four races. Right, you get through life untouched? Right, you

1008
00:46:43,561 --> 00:46:45,761
Speaker 3: and the money you take the jet pot, Right, I

1009
00:46:45,801 --> 00:46:49,761
Speaker 3: get dealt. The other hand, people are quick to judge

1010
00:46:49,961 --> 00:46:53,401
Speaker 3: from a distance when they haven't been in the situation

1011
00:46:53,681 --> 00:46:56,961
Speaker 3: of someone that's been dealt that bad hand. They haven't

1012
00:46:57,001 --> 00:46:59,681
Speaker 3: been in that position. They've had a cushy life. The

1013
00:46:59,801 --> 00:47:02,881
Speaker 3: parents are still live, they're still eighty five, ninety, they've

1014
00:47:02,921 --> 00:47:05,641
Speaker 3: inherited a lot of money. You know, don't even know

1015
00:47:05,721 --> 00:47:07,681
Speaker 3: what hardship or what it's like to live in a

1016
00:47:07,721 --> 00:47:09,601
Speaker 3: lift with a beer bottle for a pillow, and you

1017
00:47:09,681 --> 00:47:12,121
Speaker 3: have to have a paper on the beer bottle so

1018
00:47:12,201 --> 00:47:14,161
Speaker 3: the bottle wouldn't slip and stuff you know in.

1019
00:47:16,161 --> 00:47:17,881
Speaker 2: And that all came.

1020
00:47:17,761 --> 00:47:20,801
Speaker 3: About because me dad in a tree when I was ten,

1021
00:47:20,921 --> 00:47:23,881
Speaker 3: which I had no saying he was the best father

1022
00:47:23,961 --> 00:47:26,801
Speaker 3: in the world if he lives like my life is

1023
00:47:26,841 --> 00:47:31,561
Speaker 3: cushy just like everyone else's, you know, but I yes.

1024
00:47:32,361 --> 00:47:36,401
Speaker 3: So really, just do the best in the situation you can.

1025
00:47:36,481 --> 00:47:40,561
Speaker 3: But don't bend over for nobody. Certainly, stick by the truth,

1026
00:47:40,641 --> 00:47:43,881
Speaker 3: be honest and truth or it's hard, and it's much

1027
00:47:43,921 --> 00:47:47,961
Speaker 3: harder than being a liar, and it's more intricate, but

1028
00:47:48,361 --> 00:47:50,641
Speaker 3: in the end it's worth it because the truth always

1029
00:47:50,641 --> 00:47:53,641
Speaker 3: comes out in the end. To stick by it in court,

1030
00:47:54,081 --> 00:47:57,121
Speaker 3: if the truth saw you've got, it's worth nothing. Actually,

1031
00:47:57,801 --> 00:47:59,801
Speaker 3: it's the way of people that can get up and

1032
00:47:59,841 --> 00:48:02,841
Speaker 3: tell a story against you. The stories don't even have

1033
00:48:02,921 --> 00:48:04,201
Speaker 3: to coerce.

1034
00:48:04,441 --> 00:48:05,201
Speaker 2: They'll just get up.

1035
00:48:05,241 --> 00:48:07,921
Speaker 3: And the fact that the three of them are up there,

1036
00:48:07,961 --> 00:48:10,161
Speaker 3: you're gone. Yeah, if you've got the truth and you're

1037
00:48:10,201 --> 00:48:12,241
Speaker 3: on your own, you're gone. But just stick to the

1038
00:48:12,241 --> 00:48:15,001
Speaker 3: truth because the truth always comes out. And be honest

1039
00:48:15,041 --> 00:48:18,041
Speaker 3: to yourself, and don't worry about other people, and don't

1040
00:48:18,081 --> 00:48:20,601
Speaker 3: worry about what they think of you, be yourself.

1041
00:48:20,641 --> 00:48:23,161
Speaker 1: You know that's good advice. Mark, and I thank you

1042
00:48:23,281 --> 00:48:25,481
Speaker 1: for sharing this story today. It's been great to talk

1043
00:48:25,521 --> 00:48:28,041
Speaker 1: to you. You've been very honest and quite courageous, and

1044
00:48:28,721 --> 00:48:30,921
Speaker 1: I think you're a hero to your boys. You know

1045
00:48:31,201 --> 00:48:33,721
Speaker 1: that's all you can be great, And thank you very much.

1046
00:48:33,761 --> 00:48:42,281
Speaker 1: It's awesome. That's Mark DeBono. So many lessons there for us.

1047
00:48:42,361 --> 00:48:44,841
Speaker 1: And when you talk about the cards people have been dealt,

1048
00:48:45,121 --> 00:48:47,161
Speaker 1: I think I got the four races, that's for sure.

1049
00:48:47,401 --> 00:48:49,321
Speaker 1: I've had a cushy life. Everything's gone well for me.

1050
00:48:49,761 --> 00:48:52,641
Speaker 1: And my old man was a psychiatrist and he said

1051
00:48:52,641 --> 00:48:56,521
Speaker 1: to me early on, understanding people is more valuable than

1052
00:48:56,601 --> 00:48:58,961
Speaker 1: judging them. And that's why I like to have these

1053
00:48:58,961 --> 00:49:01,921
Speaker 1: conversations with Mark and people like that who've been through

1054
00:49:01,961 --> 00:49:03,921
Speaker 1: the life. And I see a lot of them get

1055
00:49:03,961 --> 00:49:06,241
Speaker 1: to the age of about forty or f and they wonder,

1056
00:49:06,281 --> 00:49:08,601
Speaker 1: where is my youth gone? Where are all those the

1057
00:49:08,601 --> 00:49:10,241
Speaker 1: good things that I should have? And some of them

1058
00:49:10,241 --> 00:49:12,361
Speaker 1: can make the change, and some of them don't. Some

1059
00:49:12,441 --> 00:49:14,960
Speaker 1: of them end up dying very young. And I'll never

1060
00:49:15,121 --> 00:49:18,161
Speaker 1: tie a hearing of more. So, if you're out there

1061
00:49:18,161 --> 00:49:20,281
Speaker 1: and you want to tell us your story. Please get

1062
00:49:20,281 --> 00:49:22,721
Speaker 1: in touch. You can send me an email Adam Shander

1063
00:49:22,721 --> 00:49:26,241
Speaker 1: writer at gmail dot com. If you want to report

1064
00:49:26,241 --> 00:49:28,241
Speaker 1: a crime, you can always do that as well call

1065
00:49:28,281 --> 00:49:31,161
Speaker 1: Crimestoppers one hundred triple three triples zerr. You might not

1066
00:49:31,201 --> 00:49:33,761
Speaker 1: trust the police, though, so you send me an email

1067
00:49:33,841 --> 00:49:36,361
Speaker 1: first and I can advise you what to do. Adam Shanner,

1068
00:49:36,361 --> 00:49:39,440
Speaker 1: writer at gmail dot com. This has been Adam shan

1069
00:49:39,561 --> 00:49:41,481
Speaker 1: for real crime. Thank you for listening.