Speaker 1: Welcome to another episode of Brave Always the CEO series.
Speaker 1: This series we launch into the new world of brave leadership.
Speaker 1: Happy people create happy businesses, true emotionally intelligent leadership. I've
Speaker 1: picked up Vombit once on our about our fourth flight
Speaker 1: and everybody thought, well, if it's good enough for him,
Speaker 1: I can do it. Now we will be joined by
Speaker 1: culture and leadership experts and some superstar CEOs who will
Speaker 1: courageously tell us the truth behind their brave leadership journeys.
Speaker 1: Today I am joined by Anthony Seabolt. Now love me
Speaker 1: as sporting personality, so I'm really thrilled to have you
Speaker 1: here today. Anthony, you are the current head of the
Speaker 1: Manly Sea Eagles. I guess footy fans will know you,
Speaker 1: but for people who aren't into footy, I guess your
Speaker 1: background being that you've been in the innel for many
Speaker 1: years now, including Melbourne Storm, South Sydney, Bristoe, Broncos, Queen's
Speaker 1: and Instead of Origin team, and you also work for
Speaker 1: England Rugby as an assistant coach as well. So welcome.
Speaker 1: Nice to have you.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's always good to chat at Thanks for having us.
Speaker 1: I do love speaking to people in sport. Because I
Speaker 1: think the similarity into leadership and team are just great analogies.
Speaker 1: But the other reason I really wanted to talk to
Speaker 1: you is because you seem to have this passion for leadership.
Speaker 1: It's been long standing, actually greater than I've seen in
Speaker 1: a lot of other people. Where did that all start from?
Speaker 2: I've always been curious, and I played just a professional
Speaker 2: rugby league myself where I was a young guy, but
Speaker 2: I did a teaching degree and so by the time
Speaker 2: I was twenty one before rugby league went full time
Speaker 2: professionally and I was actually teaching sixth class, and so
Speaker 2: it's a really good influencers in the education industry and
Speaker 2: good influencers around leadership principals and some deputy principles that
Speaker 2: I had when I was a young guy. But also
Speaker 2: when I finished playing over the English Super Leaguer came
Speaker 2: back and I was a teacher and then a university
Speaker 2: lecturer that I had a great senior lecturer there. So
Speaker 2: I think a lot of sort of that leadership passion
Speaker 2: came from the back of really good role modeling from others.
Speaker 2: And then obviously I've sort of graduated from one level
Speaker 2: to the neccsent coach over a long period of time,
Speaker 2: I've sort of had experiences with some fantastic leaders in
Speaker 2: the sporting industry, and then through my curiosity, I've actually
Speaker 2: been able to spend time with some of the best
Speaker 2: leaders in the business world as well, including one recently
Speaker 2: with the Conwell Banksy Matt Kind and I've got a
Speaker 2: good relationship with Matt, so we spent a favorite of
Speaker 2: time together in the last of the twelve sixteen months.
Speaker 1: Yeah, awesome. So being a teacher was what you wanted
Speaker 1: to do when you're growing up.
Speaker 2: He was interesting. I came out of Central Queens ad
Speaker 2: and I was recruited by President Broncards as a seventeen
Speaker 2: year old. So I just finished boarding school. A squad
Speaker 2: shatter at boarding school, I got to say, like, you know,
Speaker 2: as an all boys boarding school in regional Central Queens
Speaker 2: and and I came down and signed for the Broncos.
Speaker 2: Now in those days, this is the early nineties, so
Speaker 2: I came down in ninety ninety two or seventeen. Rugby
Speaker 2: league was in full time evan at the Broncos level.
Speaker 2: We see on TV all those guys would have jobs
Speaker 2: or studying or apprenticeships, and then we were trained of
Speaker 2: an afternoon you'd see the guys on the TV on
Speaker 2: the weekend. So came down and one of the key
Speaker 2: staff there, the broncos Connel. He's no longer with us,
Speaker 2: he's passed away, but he was a legendary figure in
Speaker 2: education and Raugbid League in Queens and he really encouraged
Speaker 2: me to do a teaching degree and he said, look,
Speaker 2: wherever you go in the world, it'll always be works
Speaker 2: the teacher and if it's not teaching that you do,
Speaker 2: it all be a really good grounding. So he influenced
Speaker 2: me then. But it's almost twenty one, believe it or not.
Speaker 2: I was teaching year six.
Speaker 1: What was that like? Teaching year six?
Speaker 2: It was really interesting because you know, as a twenty
Speaker 2: one year old, like I think back on a twenty
Speaker 2: one year old self, cannot believe or I had a
Speaker 2: class of twenty five plus hits. Because we'd play away
Speaker 2: in Sydney or wherever we would play and then on
Speaker 2: five back Sunday night and you'd be in the classroom
Speaker 2: on a Monday morning. It was different. It was different
Speaker 2: for a twenty one year old because I was still
Speaker 2: getting to know myself.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I was on Kenticky too. Its then and you
Speaker 1: were teaching in classrooms.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, you know so, yeah, I was quite a
Speaker 2: livature and it was a good learning experience structure and
Speaker 2: organization and you're influencing others, right, albeit I was only
Speaker 2: twenty one. I had to be organized, well planned and
Speaker 2: well fought out for those kids and it was wonderful experience.
Speaker 2: And I did it for twelve months and then m'd
Speaker 2: be league went full time. So then I went and
Speaker 2: played for six years or seven years where I was
Speaker 2: as a full time professional for me play them.
Speaker 1: Yeah, so it was quite a natural progression to then
Speaker 1: move into coaching, giving you background.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it was because after retire finished playing footy over
Speaker 2: in the UK professionally, and then I came back and
Speaker 2: I was a school teacher in Brisbane. I did a
Speaker 2: Master's of Education whilst I was teaching and then got
Speaker 2: Uportune to work at the University of Southern quaysiand because
Speaker 2: a lot of things are very transferable from teaching and
Speaker 2: the coach.
Speaker 1: Yeah right, So growing up you talk about obviously you
Speaker 1: had a lot of positive influences in your life through that.
Speaker 1: Who was kind of your inspiration growing up? Was it
Speaker 1: someone in your family or was it someone in the
Speaker 1: football community.
Speaker 2: Very much my dad. Mom and dad had me very young.
Speaker 2: Dad is eight a m m. Seventeen. I'm a lot
Speaker 2: older than my younger brother and younger sister. So dad
Speaker 2: is very much my role model and some of them
Speaker 2: looked up to as a young guy. And he actually
Speaker 2: was involved with a regional footy club, rock Kings and Brothers,
Speaker 2: and so a lot of my time as a young
Speaker 2: boy was around young men and being involved in that
Speaker 2: footy club and Salabi bull Boy on the weekends, and
Speaker 2: a lot of my life in your Rocky and growing
Speaker 2: ups revolved around being at the local footy club that
Speaker 2: so I spoked where I developed a love for rugbyla
Speaker 2: but all team sports, I think tank sports, they're so
Speaker 2: good and your learnd so many life lessons in team sports,
Speaker 2: and that was sort of my background.
Speaker 1: What about the other side of the coin, Because you're
Speaker 1: quite open and vulnerable when you talk about how you
Speaker 1: feel about things. Was that something that your dad granddad
Speaker 1: would like or not? Really?
Speaker 2: Yeah? Not really? More an introvert than an extrovert and
Speaker 2: my granddad's yeah. But I suppose the older I've got
Speaker 2: and the more I've sort of learned and gone through
Speaker 2: some really good times in my career and also some
Speaker 2: really really tough times. I'm soon to reflect to a
Speaker 2: lot on that, and I like that idea of working
Speaker 2: on your own mental health and wellbeing and being vulnerable,
Speaker 2: and you know, if there's some learnings that I can
Speaker 2: share that can help others, even if it's just one
Speaker 2: little thing that I've laid out of the journey, I
Speaker 2: think it's really important to share some of those experiences.
Speaker 2: And that's probably why I'm quite outspoken around. Yes, some
Speaker 2: of the things in that space.
Speaker 1: I definitely want to touch more on that, but I
Speaker 1: want to sort of go to the world you're living
Speaker 1: in now, right, So if you go to a changing
Speaker 1: room that you've got to go and doing the breaks,
Speaker 1: and you look at when you were a player back
Speaker 1: in the day versus now, how you huddle with your team,
Speaker 1: what's changed? How do you speak to people, how do
Speaker 1: you motivate them from the way it happened when you
Speaker 1: were the Yeah, definitely.
Speaker 2: So I think when I played, it was very much
Speaker 2: coach directed, So it was all the coach talking. He
Speaker 2: was the sole person who would talk, and halftime as
Speaker 2: an example, these days. You know, I'm very much a
Speaker 2: collaborative type of leader. We have a couple of leaders
Speaker 2: in our team. The first thing I do at half
Speaker 2: time is get to those couple of leaders. What are
Speaker 2: they seeing, what are they feeling out there in the game.
Speaker 2: And then what we will do is we will meet
Speaker 2: in small groups. And you know there's some research in
Speaker 2: and around you know, smaller group and meetings you get
Speaker 2: more participation from people, whether it's in business world or
Speaker 2: in the sporting world. So we'll meet in smaller pods,
Speaker 2: we call them for a couple of minutes, and then
Speaker 2: we go to the bigger pod. And often in the
Speaker 2: bigger pod or the full tame environment. I'm trying to
Speaker 2: arror my messaging to two maybe three things absolutely taps
Speaker 2: because a lot of research around retention, learning, etc. If
Speaker 2: you try and chase five rabbits again none, So it's
Speaker 2: two three the absolute tops because altimately I can't remember
Speaker 2: too many in my halftime talks from when I was
Speaker 2: a pliant right because of a sarmonch information the coach,
Speaker 2: but all for ten twelve minutes straight, and so how
Speaker 2: can you attain that? So two or three really key
Speaker 2: punching messages is what I'm giving a players and enough
Speaker 2: time because you've got to remember there on a fatigue, yeah,
Speaker 2: which is not great for learning, allow them to have
Speaker 2: a breath to really sad at half time.
Speaker 1: Yeah, awesome, that's good tips there. So when you're in
Speaker 1: that situation in the room and you guys are losing,
Speaker 1: right and you're going into the last part, how do
Speaker 1: you balance that healthy amount of giving them a whip right,
Speaker 1: which I'm sure you have meaning in your time when
Speaker 1: you're playing right, come on, guys, you've got to win.
Speaker 1: It's really that balance between empathy and winning. How do
Speaker 1: you do that? I think that's fascinating.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it is really fas fat it's really interesting, and
Speaker 2: you're seeing probably given advance if you listen to the
Speaker 2: commentators on TV that I think if you've got a
Speaker 2: response from your team after halftime, as an example, if
Speaker 2: you're losing and then they come out and they play
Speaker 2: really well the first ten minutes, talk about Craig Bellamie
Speaker 2: or one of the coaches, you know, no holding back
Speaker 2: and screaming and shouting at a half time. It's not
Speaker 2: like that at all. I think you've probably only got one,
Speaker 2: maybe two situations where you're really abrupt with the players
Speaker 2: in a season, and in young people these days, they
Speaker 2: don't listen to that type of feedback. So it's very
Speaker 2: much problem solving. And I think one of the things
Speaker 2: that I think about deeply as a head coach is
Speaker 2: how can I help the players problem solve and so
Speaker 2: how we design our training week. For me, it's about
Speaker 2: designing problems for the players to solve a training during
Speaker 2: the week, because then that will transfer to game day
Speaker 2: and it's the same at half time. Can I help
Speaker 2: the players through some tactical solutions or can I help
Speaker 2: the players through some problems solved? Because no player goes
Speaker 2: you have their own Friday night and means to play poorly,
Speaker 2: one or two things have happened. Either they haven't got
Speaker 2: their week's preparation right from a mental point of view
Speaker 2: more so than physical. Is there being a stracturage in
Speaker 2: their week or interference in their week, Or they haven't
Speaker 2: mentally tuned into how they need to physically show up
Speaker 2: at the game. But no one goes there meaning to
Speaker 2: play poorly, and so what they need at times is
Speaker 2: a bit of an arm around the shoulder and go right.
Speaker 2: This is how we going to open up this next
Speaker 2: ten minutes and a half time, So really now and
Speaker 2: focus with the messaging. Actually give them some tactical solutions
Speaker 2: or some problem solving to help with that, and been
Speaker 2: able to solve those problems themselves. And there's more than
Speaker 2: one may are doing. And I think that's my way
Speaker 2: doing it, and that's you know, having been in a
Speaker 2: number of different change rooms as an assistant as a
Speaker 2: head coach, I feel that's most effective for my weapons
Speaker 2: as a coach.
Speaker 1: Yeah, do you have to actively keep your cool? Like,
Speaker 1: what do you like in terms of staying measured?
Speaker 2: I'm pretty good. As I said, you're probably at one
Speaker 2: in footy talk, it's one or too sprazy and then
Speaker 2: you give the flass. I've heard that, and look, I'm
Speaker 2: not sure how much they work anymore. I've got to
Speaker 2: start very much. When I applayed that's what would happen.
Speaker 2: You play poorly first half, you get a spread half time,
Speaker 2: and sometimes you'd get a rebounding performance and other times
Speaker 2: you wouldn't.
Speaker 1: And then when you like into the game obviously if
Speaker 1: you win, obviously you know it's a positive feeling. But
Speaker 1: at a game that you lose and a big game, right,
Speaker 1: So I remember I think it was was it last year?
Speaker 1: You guys got to the semifinals. So when you come
Speaker 1: out of that and you've lost, obviously there's huge amounts
Speaker 1: of disappointment. What as a leader, what's your role in
Speaker 1: that moment where you come off the field you've lost
Speaker 1: a semifinal? Where are you at?
Speaker 2: It's really interesting mine. You're certainly not raning and raving
Speaker 2: there like, ultimately, you can't change a result. It's about
Speaker 2: taking your breath. I talked specifically about that acade. We
Speaker 2: didn't debreech the game after that Tigler loss. What we
Speaker 2: did do was talk around what are the small ones
Speaker 2: we've had over the season. We had a big improvement
Speaker 2: in performance last year. So what we did was we
Speaker 2: spoke about, you know, what are some of the things
Speaker 2: we've had along the way, you know that's led us
Speaker 2: to get to this opportunity. Did we handle the opportunity? Well,
Speaker 2: now we did it, or we couldn't handle some chaos.
Speaker 2: And the chaos in that particular game was what's two
Speaker 2: players believe it or not after the first two tackles
Speaker 2: of the game, which is unheard of. You know, so
Speaker 2: we're down to fifteen after thirty five seconds of the game,
Speaker 2: and there is a big positional switch in one of them.
Speaker 2: So he was around, what are the little wins we've had,
Speaker 2: what do we need to do when we get back
Speaker 2: together over the pre season, and then just reflecting on
Speaker 2: some of the things that we have had them in
Speaker 2: due or succeeded in during the season.
Speaker 1: I've got two boys and they play sport and they're
Speaker 1: only young at the nine and eleven, and I noticed
Speaker 1: that if they're down like two goals in the first half,
Speaker 1: the resilience is just not present. Right, there's that emotional
Speaker 1: that just down, the slumping around. Now, I'm obviously we're
Speaker 1: talking about grown men on a football field. It's a
Speaker 1: bit different. But I do think though that I've seen
Speaker 1: those games, whether those huge margins quite early on, right,
Speaker 1: and I can see the looks on some of these
Speaker 1: players faces. Right, it's a long road to come back from.
Speaker 1: So in terms of resilience, which we all know is
Speaker 1: much more than just the grind, it's a mental game.
Speaker 1: It's so many things. What are the strategies that you
Speaker 1: use to help players bounce back from, like heavy gaps
Speaker 1: early on in games and things like that or a
Speaker 1: series of losses in a row.
Speaker 2: One of the first things we talk about is how
Speaker 2: we break that pattern, How do we break that momentum.
Speaker 2: So there's a couple of things tactically potentially that we
Speaker 2: would message down to the players. Well that players have
Speaker 2: practiced okay, So that's one thing. How do we break
Speaker 2: that pattern to break the momentum that the other team's got.
Speaker 2: Second to that is have a reset. So we do
Speaker 2: a lot of work with our mental skills coach Andrew
Speaker 2: may on hule resets, and so a huddle reset is
Speaker 2: you know, when you have a players together, you can
Speaker 2: clearly see whether that's been effective or not because the
Speaker 2: huddles that aren't affected, you'll see players by themselves. And
Speaker 2: what happens, generally speaking is players go quiet and things
Speaker 2: go against them, right, they go into their own head
Speaker 2: and there are only in a critic's talk. All that
Speaker 2: in a talk is taking over, so they go with
Speaker 2: you rather than connect to the group. So you have
Speaker 2: to be delivered and practice it. A huddle reset is
Speaker 2: something that we work really hard on. And I'll be
Speaker 2: person out and no we're not, but we worked really
Speaker 2: hard of the last two and a bit seasons to
Speaker 2: have a huddle reset, to drop what's happened. We can't
Speaker 2: change that. We're down eighteen L or twenty L or
Speaker 2: you know, whatever it is. The momentum is against this.
Speaker 2: But what we can do is break that pattern or
Speaker 2: break them momentum. Okay, these are the one or two
Speaker 2: things we need to do to try and break them
Speaker 2: a menum, but we need a huddle. Resets have a
Speaker 2: use of breath work or the use of something that
Speaker 2: we practice all the time. And a trigger can be
Speaker 2: something as simple as sprang border on your face. That's
Speaker 2: your trigger to reset your mind. Or it could be
Speaker 2: looking at a certain part of the ground. Look, some
Speaker 2: of our players look at a particular sign if they've
Speaker 2: made an error, because we don't play us to dwell
Speaker 2: on the air. What we're trying to do is get
Speaker 2: a competitive advantage by moving on quicker stuff after an
Speaker 2: error or after try. It's concerned, it's hard, it's difficult,
Speaker 2: it's easy. Everyone we're doing.
Speaker 1: I think that's really interesting. Like the splashing of water
Speaker 1: on your face for example. I mean, if you're in
Speaker 1: a corporate environment, you have a very heated situation, you
Speaker 1: could go to the bar through and quickly do that. Right,
Speaker 1: it's the reset you're talking about when you say breath work.
Speaker 1: What are you guys doing in that, because I think
Speaker 1: it's a really interesting space to reset.
Speaker 2: Well, we start every week in season with we call
Speaker 2: manly mindfulness and it's a ten minute start to our
Speaker 2: week where literally long on the floor and so our
Speaker 2: mintal skills coach or a head of performance, whoever's leading
Speaker 2: it that particular week, we will do some visualization and
Speaker 2: some breath work to start the week just to clear
Speaker 2: whether it was a wheel on the weekend or a
Speaker 2: loss on the weekend, just to start the week off,
Speaker 2: and there'll be your script that's right out alth. They'll
Speaker 2: be breathrough it and a lot of the breath workers
Speaker 2: around the box breathing. So four seconds in hold for
Speaker 2: four seconds, four seconds out half four seconds and repetitions
Speaker 2: of that as an example. Yeah, So we start our
Speaker 2: week with that mindfulness and it's almost look at a
Speaker 2: ritual rout taying to get rid of what's just happened, good,
Speaker 2: bad or indifferent and okay, now starting our new week
Speaker 2: and a fresh start. And this is the first thing
Speaker 2: we're going to do. So we do that at training
Speaker 2: on the field, before running out at halftime or before
Speaker 2: the game. You'll see a lot of teams now use breathing.
Speaker 2: You'll see it on the TV, and often that's just
Speaker 2: three deep breaths. We talk about fire and ice, right,
Speaker 2: So adding some ice, for instance, is if your og arounds,
Speaker 2: you know mentally, you know you're sort of in the
Speaker 2: change your ogre around yeah wid yeah, wide, and you
Speaker 2: don't want that, right, so you're going to add a
Speaker 2: little bit of ice, and your add ice you might
Speaker 2: be through some softer music or some breathing of the
Speaker 2: box breathing. Right, if you come to the ground you're
Speaker 2: not quite fight, have anything, you know, really struggling today
Speaker 2: to get there, we might add some fire. So fire
Speaker 2: would be a loud music we come up with certain ways,
Speaker 2: but there's also some breath work that we do and
Speaker 2: that we add fire. Right, So depending on what you need,
Speaker 2: we've tried to really add some individual tools to each
Speaker 2: player's memory skills toolbox, and what works for one might
Speaker 2: not work for the other, but we give them the
Speaker 2: opportunity to work out what works for each individual. So
Speaker 2: I think that's a big change that when I played
Speaker 2: twenty five years ago, one time I've.
Speaker 1: Been heard of, would you been in a big slap
Speaker 1: on the back and get out there. I actually think
Speaker 1: this is very clever. Obviously sport makes so much sense,
Speaker 1: but actually just think about a normal corporate office environment
Speaker 1: you get in the morning. Are we doing a sense
Speaker 1: check off? Do we need some fire ice here?
Speaker 2: You know?
Speaker 1: I mean different tactics. But I don't see why that.
Speaker 2: I do a lot with corporates and so on, and
Speaker 2: these are the types of things that I'm talking to
Speaker 2: them about, either individually or collectively. Lot, how can you
Speaker 2: have a better week? And a better week is okay,
Speaker 2: how I start my week or how I start I don't,
Speaker 2: But also a better week looks a lot for people
Speaker 2: who work in business how they finish their day. So
Speaker 2: down regulation because if you take the last conversation, which
Speaker 2: could have been a tough one or a negative one
Speaker 2: at work, if you take that home to your family
Speaker 2: or your partner or whatever it is, then that's not
Speaker 2: going to set up a good evening, you know, for
Speaker 2: you and your family. So how do you downrag at
Speaker 2: the end of your day? As an example, what I'll
Speaker 2: do to finish my day is I'll have a sauna
Speaker 2: and cold water measure to finish my day. So I
Speaker 2: got from head coach into being no longer you know
Speaker 2: in the business world, can probably do better and learn
Speaker 2: some lessons from professional Spirit.
Speaker 1: Great great advice. So when you look at your leadership
Speaker 1: career across coaching in particular, if you look at when
Speaker 1: you started until now, what are you most proud of
Speaker 1: in terms of what leadership skill You're like, you know,
Speaker 1: what I really leaned into that? And which one do
Speaker 1: you still feel like you've got work to do on.
Speaker 2: Well, it's a great question. I feel like one of
Speaker 2: the things that I've been able to do well, if
Speaker 2: we're just talking this current experience, is really create belonging
Speaker 2: and connection in our group. I'm really proud of that.
Speaker 2: But we've had to work really hard on it. So
Speaker 2: we do things like manly mindfulness, but we do can
Speaker 2: fire chats where our head of wellbeing will have five
Speaker 2: really difficult questions for a staff member or a player,
Speaker 2: and we do that twice a week, and so we
Speaker 2: have two people up at each session, so four people
Speaker 2: a week. Well, you get to be vulnerable, you get
Speaker 2: to share some stories, challenges and highlights that you've had
Speaker 2: to endure or that you've succeeded in and so on.
Speaker 2: So I'm really proud of that, and I'm really proud
Speaker 2: of that you're wrong. We've got here. It's okay to
Speaker 2: be vulnerable and it's okay to get something wrong. And
Speaker 2: we've tried to work really hard on building that belonging
Speaker 2: in that connection over the last two and a big years.
Speaker 2: That's something that we've had to work really hard on
Speaker 2: because pride in myself coming there had been some challenges
Speaker 2: for the group. So that's something i'm proud of. Something
Speaker 2: that I've got wrong and made a mistake was my
Speaker 2: time at the bront Goes. I tried to change too
Speaker 2: much too quickly, Like I've got up there and they've
Speaker 2: been doing certain things a certain way for probably the
Speaker 2: best part of thirty years. And so I'm trying to
Speaker 2: make some really really big changes. And I think if
Speaker 2: I had a sat back observed a little bit more
Speaker 2: as a leader going into the environment rather than God,
Speaker 2: this is what we're doing with ABCDG, I might have
Speaker 2: just made one or two slight changes then observed, and
Speaker 2: then after the first twelve months I've been able to
Speaker 2: if I had more experience at a particular time might
Speaker 2: have been able to Okay, this is what we need
Speaker 2: to add to the program. I feel like I've done
Speaker 2: that a whole bit better here this time. Yeah, you know,
Speaker 2: the first child months was a lot of observing how
Speaker 2: do we build some psychological safety or belonging in connection
Speaker 2: in the group? Less about exits and o's you know,
Speaker 2: for me as a head coach. Now the assistant coaches
Speaker 2: to do that. So that's some of the things I
Speaker 2: feel like I've dune well now and some of the
Speaker 2: lessons I've learned from the previous dram I was a
Speaker 2: head coach.
Speaker 1: That's awesome and great self awareness, right, So I think
Speaker 1: what you're saying with Bron because sometimes is slow down.
Speaker 1: That's kind of the message to yourself as sometimes you
Speaker 1: don't need to go and improve yourself by changing everything.
Speaker 1: It's just smaller steps. So, yeah, that's awesome. I love
Speaker 1: the work that you're doing with a group. That's amazing,
Speaker 1: and I think culturally that must just have a huge impact.
Speaker 1: I guess the challenge there is when you have movement
Speaker 1: and the team and players leave and so forth, does
Speaker 1: that kind of upset the apple card a little bit?
Speaker 2: Yeah, Well, it's always difficult. And the one thing I
Speaker 2: think about when we allow players to go to another club,
Speaker 2: it's an opportunity for that player. Like, if they're not
Speaker 2: getting the opportunity out club that they want or desire,
Speaker 2: then I want them to go to another club, whether
Speaker 2: it's here in Australia or over in England, to get
Speaker 2: an opportunity. You know, I'll talk that explicitly to the guys.
Speaker 2: You know, if we're you know, if we're allowing someone
Speaker 2: to move on or we think someone's got a better opportunity,
Speaker 2: I think that's great for them because we don't want
Speaker 2: them sitting here not really wanting to be here, or
Speaker 2: not feeling like they're going to get an opportunity here.
Speaker 2: You know, we want them to be here because I
Speaker 2: feel like it's a great environment, they're getting better individually,
Speaker 2: and they're a chance of playing first grade. But if
Speaker 2: someone's not a chance of playing first grade here, I'd
Speaker 2: rather help them find through their manager or help the
Speaker 2: player individually find another opportunity that's better for them. I
Speaker 2: think there's a right way to wrongwade to do that.
Speaker 2: I haven't always got that right I'm going to say,
Speaker 2: but I feel like the more experience I've got. It's
Speaker 2: not about letting someone go or releasing someone because they're
Speaker 2: not good enough. It's you're not quite getting an opportunity here.
Speaker 2: Is there a better opportunity for you elsewhere? Because if
Speaker 2: there is, then we'll help you get that opportunity or
Speaker 2: allow you to go to get that opportunity elsewhere. Yeah.
Speaker 1: Absolutely, I love that. So look, I have to talk
Speaker 1: a bit more about that period of time at the
Speaker 1: Broncos because obviously it probably is one of the more
Speaker 1: challenging periods or the most challenging period of your career,
Speaker 1: you know, from both obviously the challenges around the team
Speaker 1: and coming in as coaching, but also that there's a
Speaker 1: lot of stuff from a personal perspective and through the
Speaker 1: media that you got put through. So how did you
Speaker 1: navigate that time of your life? Because I look at
Speaker 1: you now and where you're at and the incredible role
Speaker 1: you're playing and your leadership style is unique and I
Speaker 1: think really setting a standard. How did you bounce back
Speaker 1: from such a difficult period?
Speaker 2: You know, I could live with the results, like we
Speaker 2: actually made the finals year one, and no one really
Speaker 2: talks about that that we had a really young group.
Speaker 2: I think we gave eleven or twelve De boos. In
Speaker 2: my first year there, we made the finals, but we
Speaker 2: got bleed in horrible. I think it was like fifty
Speaker 2: eight where it was the worst loss of experience. I
Speaker 2: think it was particularly in the finals, you know, like
Speaker 2: it should never be lost like that. So then we
Speaker 2: come to low criticism, particular myself at the end of
Speaker 2: that first year, and that bled over in my second
Speaker 2: year there, which was COVID year, to the the sum
Speaker 2: it's uncertain in the world and chaos in the world.
Speaker 2: I reckon that led into our group. You know, I
Speaker 2: think we didn't handle that period at all well because
Speaker 2: we won first two games before COVID, and we come
Speaker 2: back after COVID, and I think I coached another eleven games,
Speaker 2: I mean only one one of those eleven games. So
Speaker 2: then the spot I really hit on me, and so
Speaker 2: I don't feel as though I had the mental skills
Speaker 2: or the tools to cope with that period effectively. I
Speaker 2: think I led a lot of that agitation through the
Speaker 2: criticism in the media, and you know, let that impact
Speaker 2: me a lot. Sort of couldn't get out of my
Speaker 2: own head and mean a cretic took over and I
Speaker 2: feel like I've done a lot of work over the
Speaker 2: last couple of years on really understanding how I can
Speaker 2: get rid of that in a critic or that negative
Speaker 2: self talk, How I can reset, how I down ragged
Speaker 2: at the end of the day, How I need to
Speaker 2: spend a bit more time on myself to start and
Speaker 2: have a better mourning myself, you know, through exercise or
Speaker 2: through the use of sauna and cold water and so on.
Speaker 2: So I didn't have the mental skills tools, you know.
Speaker 2: I spoke to people with regards working on that side
Speaker 2: of things, and I need a little bit of help
Speaker 2: to try my reset after that, because it's pretty brutal.
Speaker 2: The biggest thing that was the social media. There's a
Speaker 2: lot of defamation and harassment, which was devastating. Really not
Speaker 2: so much for me, but my family, close friends and
Speaker 2: so on. Just see a lot of that rubbish was
Speaker 2: probably unheard of at that time. I got to say
Speaker 2: it was so yeah, out of a negative, horrible horror experience.
Speaker 2: I feel like I've gained a lot from it, and
Speaker 2: I don't think i'd be where I am in life
Speaker 2: in my career having perspective of things I didn't go
Speaker 2: through that. One of the positives was that Aaron Mullan
Speaker 2: and myself Aaron had been horribly defamed on social media
Speaker 2: itself and grab the racial awareness in and around this space,
Speaker 2: and we actually were part of the conversation that led
Speaker 2: to some legislation change and peering at the Senate, myself
Speaker 2: and Erin being part of that legislation change was something
Speaker 2: I feel like was a real positive and talking out
Speaker 2: around social media bullying and harassment. It's just not on.
Speaker 2: And I don't care whether I'm a head coach or principal,
Speaker 2: or a school teacher or a nine or ten student,
Speaker 2: it's just not on. And we've seen the damaging impact
Speaker 2: on Chalm through the use of the social media bullying.
Speaker 2: But yeah, as I said, that positive to take away
Speaker 2: was that part of a conversation that brought it to
Speaker 2: the forefront and there was some legislation showing. That's something
Speaker 2: I'm proud of.
Speaker 1: No doubt. Obviously you've come right out on the other
Speaker 1: side and you've had this positive impact. But at the time,
Speaker 1: and you know, I always think this, and this is
Speaker 1: because it was I interview people in pretty high profile
Speaker 1: roles right to prove that they're just human. It is
Speaker 1: a big part of that, right, So this would have hurt,
Speaker 1: Like hell, I don't believe anyone wouldn't be affected by
Speaker 1: the words that they read and things that people were saying.
Speaker 1: So I guess this could have gone another way. So
Speaker 1: how did you coaching that period? Was there a time
Speaker 1: where you thought I'm never going to go back to football?
Speaker 1: Was football like off the table?
Speaker 2: Yeah? Yeah, definitely was like a lock on itself away
Speaker 2: for the first because I had cameras at some house
Speaker 2: for the best part of fourteen days, and when I
Speaker 2: was able to get out of quarantine, you know, I
Speaker 2: had Meeta following a car like literally taking photos of
Speaker 2: me and driving a car, which was I just got wow,
Speaker 2: it's pretty crazy, Like, you know, I'm a footy coach, right,
Speaker 2: so let's have some perspective on things. And I was
Speaker 2: pretty down for a period of time there, and someone
Speaker 2: who's very well known, Phiel Girl, and I spoken about
Speaker 2: this previously. He gave me a call and said, stop
Speaker 2: hiding behind the curtains and get out and about I
Speaker 2: suppose I was taxing my identity to that of a
Speaker 2: head coach and it was embarrassing because my ego got
Speaker 2: in the right right because I'd had this wonderful journey
Speaker 2: to becoming a head coach at Melbourne Storm and queens
Speaker 2: Ane Stata of origin, assistant coach and assistant coach at
Speaker 2: two clubs here in Sydney, and then head coach. It's
Speaker 2: out where you know, we did a great job. I
Speaker 2: was recognized individuals, so I had this really positive ride
Speaker 2: and then you know, my ego was hurt and my
Speaker 2: identity being a head coach. Wait, really, you're My identity
Speaker 2: is not as a head coach, it's you know, what
Speaker 2: am I like as a person first and foremost. I
Speaker 2: struggled with that really deeply, and I didn't think that
Speaker 2: I would have a coach again. And I did some
Speaker 2: consulting with him Rugby. Externally, I did a little bit
Speaker 2: of consulting from Newcastle Knights and that was not coaching,
Speaker 2: that was just more helping mentor their coaches. And I
Speaker 2: was doing some work in the corporate space in leadership
Speaker 2: and doing it in a medium, and I think that
Speaker 2: experience I've worked in the other side of the media
Speaker 2: was really really helpful for me. And then Eddie Jones
Speaker 2: probably went my appetite to coach again. He offered me
Speaker 2: a full time role as seeing your assistant coach being
Speaker 2: my Rugby are the biggest rugby union in world rugby,
Speaker 2: and so that will probably breathe a bit of life
Speaker 2: in thinking. Okay, well, I haven't lost my love totally
Speaker 2: for coaching, but I didn't think that I'd ever get
Speaker 2: the opportunity to be a head coaching and I got
Speaker 2: to start. I just thought my reputation and my character
Speaker 2: was a tax sad munch on social media and in
Speaker 2: the media that well at a club game near me,
Speaker 2: because it would just cause heaps of noise. And after
Speaker 2: building a reputation over a twelve thirty and fourteen year period,
Speaker 2: all of a sudden it was like in eighteen months
Speaker 2: it was just thankfully my reputation. You know, some good
Speaker 2: people in the background had me opportunities like Eddie Jones
Speaker 2: and Live and Rugby, and then obviously the Penn family
Speaker 2: here manly I worked here as an assistant so they
Speaker 2: knew me well. They also got a good reference from
Speaker 2: Carl Morrison, am of the Broncos, and so yeah, I've
Speaker 2: got another opportunity and this is year three of being
Speaker 2: a head coach again. Yeah.
Speaker 1: So with all that said, and what you went through
Speaker 1: What did you learn about yourself?
Speaker 2: First of all, that my identity is not attached to
Speaker 2: being footy coach. You know, a lot of the stuff
Speaker 2: that you were tato anertato me was EGO talking, you know,
Speaker 2: in the media, like you're going to get criticized if
Speaker 2: you're in a profile position like an NFL coach or
Speaker 2: an AFL coach, and you're going to get critique and
Speaker 2: it's okay, as.
Speaker 1: Then you should have just let some of the comments go.
Speaker 2: And I took a lot of bit personally because I
Speaker 2: thought there was some agendas or there was some personal
Speaker 2: attacks on my character, and that's why I got fired
Speaker 2: up a bit. But ultimately, at the end of the day,
Speaker 2: it doesn't really really matter. I mean, it's not life
Speaker 2: and death. So Ego got on the road. The identity
Speaker 2: side of things got on the road. Certainly. Perspective. You know,
Speaker 2: we're not surgeons. You know, we're not saving people's lives.
Speaker 2: We're trying to create an environment where there's a group
Speaker 2: of young men supported by staff who are hardworking and
Speaker 2: going after conocourse. You know, you've got to continue to
Speaker 2: try and strive to help the group about it individually
Speaker 2: or collectively. And yeah, so there's a few things that
Speaker 2: I learned. It was pretty challenging, but you didn't want
Speaker 2: to talk about it for a long time. I'm going
Speaker 2: to say, like I was very reluctant to show that
Speaker 2: bern and bil Lee or.
Speaker 1: Because I was thinking that I didn't actually prep you
Speaker 1: to say, Hey, is it okay for asking you this?
Speaker 1: Because I know you've talked a bit about it, right,
Speaker 1: but why don't you say I don't want to go there?
Speaker 1: And I get that from some people. I don't want
Speaker 1: to go there and you don't do that way.
Speaker 2: Is that I've got a lot of messages, and often
Speaker 2: the messages mostly positive with regards to look, you know
Speaker 2: I've been through bearing myself or knowing that other people
Speaker 2: have gone through something pretty challenging. All this, you know,
Speaker 2: it gives me a little bit of wide at the
Speaker 2: end of the tunnel, sat to speak, if I can
Speaker 2: help someone in whatever industry it is. If there's one
Speaker 2: takeaway from this catch up in I feel like that's
Speaker 2: a real positive thing. And I feel like where I
Speaker 2: am in my life now because my identity is not
Speaker 2: attached to being a head coach and old cloud, I
Speaker 2: can talk about this. I can talk about my mistakes
Speaker 2: I made at Bridsbane. I also can talk about and
Speaker 2: rejoicing some of the joy I have had as a
Speaker 2: coach over a long period of time. Right, and where
Speaker 2: the results going away this year? And I don't going
Speaker 2: to lie this year. Ultimately, I can only control what
Speaker 2: I do, and I feel like I won't give the
Speaker 2: best support to this group, for the right resources around
Speaker 2: the group. Then we'll give ourselves a chance to be
Speaker 2: in the conversation that we were last year of playing
Speaker 2: fast for you again.
Speaker 1: I mean, the smile that's on my face isn't like
Speaker 1: just planted on there. It's just because everything is saying
Speaker 1: I'm like, this is what it's about. Vulnerability breeds vulnerability, Right,
Speaker 1: so you say something and share it someone who's lessening's like,
Speaker 1: it's okay for me to feel that way too, And
Speaker 1: it breeds connection. And I think that's what you. Being
Speaker 1: so open and honest about your journey ups and the
Speaker 1: downs has allowed people to feel safe with you and
Speaker 1: comfortable to talk as well. So I love all of it.
Speaker 1: I think it's brilliant. It does makee me a question, though,
Speaker 1: trust being like a critical part of a good team,
Speaker 1: how did those experiences. Trust was very broken for you
Speaker 1: with some relationships, right people. How does that play out
Speaker 1: for you now, Like is it harder for you to
Speaker 1: trust people? Do you give trust upfront? Where does that sert?
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's an interesting one because I feel like in
Speaker 2: some ways shad or form some of the relationships when
Speaker 2: I went back on from Queensland. So I was going
Speaker 2: and I took this big rich deal to go home,
Speaker 2: and ultimately a lot of people didn't want me back
Speaker 2: at the Broncos, you know. So there was a lot
Speaker 2: of relationships that I have not worried about keeping alive.
Speaker 2: And there's plenty of relationships I have invested in from
Speaker 2: that same experience that I've kept alive. And some of
Speaker 2: that was down to some of the trust and so on.
Speaker 2: I think it's important that one bad experience doesn't ruin
Speaker 2: it for the next experience. So I give trust to
Speaker 2: the playing group when I came here and the staff
Speaker 2: some of this storytelling. I've done this over the last
Speaker 2: two and a big years with the players, Like the
Speaker 2: players know that I didn't handle that experience the Bronco
Speaker 2: as well. The players know that I went there rather
Speaker 2: than the decision made of my heart, my head around money,
Speaker 2: you know, and what six year deal significant financial deal
Speaker 2: it was. I've spoken about this because I learned a
Speaker 2: lot and they might be a lesson in it for
Speaker 2: some of the players, right, But I've spoken about this
Speaker 2: in my owner circle, with best friends, with the family.
Speaker 2: It's something that I've shared and as I said, if
Speaker 2: someone can take one thing away from it, then that's
Speaker 2: probably a positive. I'd suggess.
Speaker 1: Well, if you're authentic with people and they know you
Speaker 1: and where there's with you, then it's a great baseline
Speaker 1: for a good relationship and things to flourish. You just
Speaker 1: see something there though, that really sprung. You said that
Speaker 1: you didn't make a decision when you went to the
Speaker 1: broncos you might have used your brain around the money
Speaker 1: versus your heart, right, And so I find this interesting.
Speaker 1: So I just listened to garble Marte's event. You talked
Speaker 1: about the three knowledge areas being the brain, the heart,
Speaker 1: and the gut, and people often just use the brain
Speaker 1: right as the logical thinking in footy as a coach,
Speaker 1: how much does your gut, instinct and your heart come
Speaker 1: into any decision making if at all?
Speaker 2: No, it does. I feel like when I've made good decisions.
Speaker 2: That's band and gut feel or something that I've done
Speaker 2: with my heart. I made a business decision, I suppose
Speaker 2: the best way to call it, Bronco's for me a
Speaker 2: five year deal with a six year in my favor
Speaker 2: and double the money essentially that I was on it
Speaker 2: else and double the length and contract. And so I
Speaker 2: was loving South. We made the brilliant final. We were
Speaker 2: a half a game of footy away from making the
Speaker 2: Grand Final. First year've had coach, the players, they are
Speaker 2: excellent to work with, such good guys. The support of
Speaker 2: aids were excellent. But I made that decision. But ultimately
Speaker 2: I wouldn't be in this situation for me now, and
Speaker 2: I feel like this is the right situation for me
Speaker 2: to be. And I've lived in this area since October
Speaker 2: twenty fifteen, even when I've worked over seas or worked
Speaker 2: in coins, and I've had a presence in this area
Speaker 2: for almost a decade now. I had an experience here
Speaker 2: for one year as an assistant coach, and so all
Speaker 2: those learnings, I'll feel like, if this is my last
Speaker 2: opportunity or last crack as our head coach, what a
Speaker 2: place to the Yeah.
Speaker 1: Agreat and so Obviously you made the semi finals in
Speaker 1: twenty twenty four and so I'm sure your ambitions are
Speaker 1: set potentially a bit higher for that for this year
Speaker 1: for the Seagulls. How does Anthony level up this year?
Speaker 1: You talk about your team, what they do, but what
Speaker 1: are you personally going to do to level up to
Speaker 1: get to your goals this year?
Speaker 2: Yeah, Well, it's been a bit of a thing for
Speaker 2: us over the pre season. The next level it fills out.
Speaker 2: We've got a bit more in its you know, how
Speaker 2: we prepare physically, how we mentally tactically technically, there's areas
Speaker 2: that we can really go after and really narrow our
Speaker 2: focus to take us to that next level. And I
Speaker 2: think it's the same for me as our head coach,
Speaker 2: Like what did I learn last year and watched our
Speaker 2: staff learned last year and around our preparation and how
Speaker 2: we handle different parts of the seat, and I think
Speaker 2: there's some really good learning for us there. So the
Speaker 2: opportunity we've got it rather than challenges to go to
Speaker 2: the next level. And I feel like, you know, we've
Speaker 2: had a good preparation and we've got a really tough
Speaker 2: start to the competition, but it's a great competition to
Speaker 2: be part of it. We feel like we can make
Speaker 2: some gains again this year.
Speaker 1: Amazing Well, Anthony, it has been an absolute pleasure. I
Speaker 1: genuinely mean this. I love things that you've said today,
Speaker 1: the way you're approaching leadership. I love that you're doing
Speaker 1: that in sport, in a male dominated sport. I love
Speaker 1: that you're leaning into your vulnerability. I think there's so
Speaker 1: many takeaways for people. And look, I know my friend
Speaker 1: Sammy Thyda will kill me, but you know, I might
Speaker 1: just have to switch teams because I'm rooting for you
Speaker 1: this year to get to the top.
Speaker 2: So yeah, Sam might be happy that he's a good man.
Speaker 1: We won't be happy, but he'll understand this is great.
Speaker 1: I'm really happy for you and great to see you
Speaker 1: back in coaching role and I can't wait to see
Speaker 1: this year roll out for you.
Speaker 2: Thank you, Thank you, Thank Anthony.
Speaker 1: Cheers