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Speaker 1: Let's talk toll roads, because Alexander Downer has written an

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Speaker 1: article in The TiSER today saying that toll roads are

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Speaker 1: a must given the state is heading to forty four

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Speaker 1: billion dollars of debt in the four year forward estimates

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Speaker 1: of the state budget forty four billion, and we're borrowing

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Speaker 1: and borrowing for more projects as time goes on. No

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Speaker 1: end to that insight. He is suggesting a toll road

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Speaker 1: is the answer at some stage on new projects. Let's

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Speaker 1: have a chat with him. Alexander Downer, Good morning, Good morning.

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Speaker 1: This is, in the words of Yes Minister, courageous call

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Speaker 1: for a government to make a brave call, isn't it,

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Speaker 1: Because as you know here in South Australia, both parties

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Speaker 1: have ruled it out and the Labor Party the government

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Speaker 1: now vehemently saying never a toll road under our watch.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. Well it's easy to say that. But what they'd

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Speaker 2: never answered both the politics is the question where does

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Speaker 2: they come from. What that's happening in South Australia is

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Speaker 2: the government is increasingly building up its debt. Next year

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Speaker 2: debt will be twenty six percent of gross state product.

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Speaker 2: It's expected that by twenty thirty it'll be around half

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Speaker 2: of gross state product, and you reach a point where

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Speaker 2: the state government, which is borrowing more and more money,

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Speaker 2: will simply not be able to borrow anymore. So it's

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Speaker 2: easy to be promising people things for free when you're

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Speaker 2: just going out and borrowing the money. It's more difficult

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Speaker 2: when you're honest with the public and you say that

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Speaker 2: we'll reach a point where we can't borrow any more money,

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Speaker 2: nor should we borrow any more money. But if you

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Speaker 2: want new highways, I mean I'm talking of major roads,

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Speaker 2: not smaller roads. If you want new highways, then the

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Speaker 2: only way we can come finance them is if we

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Speaker 2: have toll roads. Then that's what's happened in New South

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Speaker 2: Wales and Victoria, is what's happened in many parts of

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Speaker 2: the world simply because you can't provide things for free forever.

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Speaker 1: So if we were looking at Adelaide today, should the

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Speaker 1: new south Road underpass motorway when it's done be considered

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Speaker 1: a toll road? Would that be a candidate?

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Speaker 2: Well, it's sort of half done, isn't it already? So

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Speaker 2: it's difficult to change the system halfway through the project.

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Speaker 2: I mean, I think originally the project should have had

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Speaker 2: had some sort of a toll way system on it

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Speaker 2: and be substantially funded by the private sector. It wouldn't

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Speaker 2: be possible for the private sector to fund the whole project,

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Speaker 2: but substantially funded by the private sector, and it would

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Speaker 2: have saved a huge amount of money that could be

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Speaker 2: spent on education and health and other areas of public concern.

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Speaker 2: But that's not going to happen. But if we're going

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Speaker 2: to start developing Gifford Hill I think it's coored near

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Speaker 2: murray Bridge and bring a lot more traffic down through

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Speaker 2: the Southeast Freeway, it's going to cause major problems. If

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Speaker 2: we are going to solve that problem by building a

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Speaker 2: new highway, then that will have to be a toll

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Speaker 2: road because there's no other way of financing it, or

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Speaker 2: if you want to you know, if you want new

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Speaker 2: highways anywhere in South Australia, you're going to have to

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Speaker 2: pay for them, and that is realistically the only way

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Speaker 2: it can be done.

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Speaker 1: It's a good point because driving on the freeway on

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Speaker 1: the weekend, just obviously between Mount Barker and the city

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Speaker 1: there is a lot more traffic and I was thinking

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Speaker 1: at some point an extra lane is going to be added,

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Speaker 1: have to be added on both sides, in and out

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Speaker 1: to make it three lanes all the way into the

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Speaker 1: city from Mount Barker. That seems as obvious as day.

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Speaker 1: And how are we going to afford that?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, not only not only would that be very expensive,

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Speaker 2: And you're probably right that will have to be done

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Speaker 2: at some stage, particularly given that Mount Barker is now

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Speaker 2: becoming a town of forty thou people. But you do

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Speaker 2: have a logistical problem there, and that it's the Hyson tunnels.

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Speaker 2: So there are four lanes through the top Hyden tunnels.

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Speaker 2: If you wanted to expand that to six, that would

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Speaker 2: be hugely expensive to expand those tunnels obviously feasible in

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Speaker 2: an engineering sense, but all of these things cost eye

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Speaker 2: watering amounts of money. And I just want your listeners

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Speaker 2: to stop and think, not think, oh, I wouldn't want

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Speaker 2: to pay a toll. Of course they wouldn't want to

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Speaker 2: pay a toll. I understand that. But then you won't

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Speaker 2: have the road because the state government has just about

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Speaker 2: maxed out its debt and they just keep borrowing and

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Speaker 2: browing and borrowing and building up more debt and no

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Speaker 2: one cares. I mean nobody in the Parliament cares. They

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Speaker 2: barely debate this issue, and I find that quite astonishing.

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Speaker 1: Really all right, Alexander Downa, thanks for your thoughts and

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Speaker 1: time this morning, the articles in the advertiser. It is

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Speaker 1: twenty five past nine. Let's put that to Steve Shearer,

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Speaker 1: Transport Association. Steve, good morning, thanks for your time. Toll roads,

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Speaker 1: yes or no.

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Speaker 3: The trucking industry. I've been doing this for thirty years, Matthew,

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Speaker 3: and the trucking industry has always said that we're not

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Speaker 3: opposed to tolls. But there are a couple of conditions

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Speaker 3: it has. Any toll on a road that's used by

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Speaker 3: the babe vehicle industry road frate sector would have to

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Speaker 3: be set at a level that's equal to or less

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Speaker 3: than the cost saving. Otherwise there's no point because we're

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Speaker 3: already paying eight billion dollars a year in fuel exise

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Speaker 3: that per later we pay an amount of fuel excise,

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Speaker 3: and the amount we pay is set by the federal

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Speaker 3: government and it is set at the level that recovers

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Speaker 3: the cost of our impact on the roads. So the

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Speaker 3: trucking industry is already paying and has been for a

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Speaker 3: very long time. Came for the roads that we use

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Speaker 3: and the wear and tear we cause on them. So

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Speaker 3: a toll is an additional tax, so there has to

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Speaker 3: be a benefit to the trucking industry otherwise it's unfair

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Speaker 3: and uneconomic. That's the first point. Second point though, is

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Speaker 3: that because I've been doing this for so long, I've

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Speaker 3: seen every government from every side of politics say no

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Speaker 3: to toll, mainly for two reasons, Matthew, the media beat

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Speaker 3: them up when they say they're going to use tolls,

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Speaker 3: and the politics gets played. A long time ago, before

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Speaker 3: the bridges that put down at Port Adelaide we build,

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Speaker 3: I arranged the meeting with the then Premier Ike Ran,

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Speaker 3: his Transport Minister, Michael Wright, the Treasurer of Kevin Foley,

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Speaker 3: and we discussed whether or not a toll would help

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Speaker 3: get the built that the bridges built. And at the

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Speaker 3: end of the meeting Mike Ram said, Steve, you go

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Speaker 3: and get the opposition to agree to tolls and then

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Speaker 3: we'll look at it. That afternoon I met with Rob Kern,

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Speaker 3: the then leader of the opposition, and he said, Steve,

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Speaker 3: it's not our job in opposition to go first on tolls.

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Speaker 3: You get the government to go first and we'll look

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Speaker 3: at it. They're both afraid of having the other party

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Speaker 3: go first and losing votes at elections. But this morning

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Speaker 3: on the ABC I listened very carefully to Tom cuibsontonus's

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Speaker 3: quite reasonable arguments about why tolls aren't working as well

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Speaker 3: as they should and it could work against you because

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Speaker 3: of commuters saying I'm not paying a toll on that

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Speaker 3: bit of infrastructure. I also heard being Hood the new

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Speaker 3: opposition shadow minister rule out unequivocally tolls, but his words were,

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Speaker 3: if re elected in our first term of office, there

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Speaker 3: will be no tolls, So he didn't quite rule it

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Speaker 3: out forever. But the point is the politics are dead

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Speaker 3: against tolls. The trucking into is not against tolls. If

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Speaker 3: it helps us get a better road, like a decent

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Speaker 3: bypass behind the hills, that works well. But the toll

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Speaker 3: has to be set to the level that does not

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Speaker 3: economically disadvantage the trucking industry because we're already paying our way.

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Speaker 1: You might put the argument then that the benefit to

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Speaker 1: the trucking industry is a faster root with a toll road,

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Speaker 1: so that's your payoff.

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Speaker 3: No, that's the point. So one hundred and fifteen kilometers

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Speaker 3: extra behind the hills works for us if we can

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Speaker 3: travel at a speed of say, every speed of ninety

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Speaker 3: to ninety five kilometers per hour and get much better

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Speaker 3: fuel consumption, and so we get a saving of X.

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Speaker 3: What we wouldn't go along with is being charged a

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Speaker 3: toll that's greater than X. So we get a better

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Speaker 3: road that gives us a saving, and we would accept

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Speaker 3: a toll that's set at that level or a bit less.

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Speaker 1: All right, Steve, appreciate your time this morning. Thank you,

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Speaker 1: Steve Sheer. S I right Transport Association. Jonathan Wilson is

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Speaker 1: CEO Freight Council of South Australia. What's your view on

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Speaker 1: tells Jonathan.

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Speaker 4: Well, first of all, we would agree with what Steve's

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Speaker 4: already articulated around the trucking industry already being a significant

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Speaker 4: economic contributor to roads. But I think if you, if

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Speaker 4: you think about the sort of problems that mister Doner's

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Speaker 4: trying to address in his article, and it's really healthy

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Speaker 4: for us to continue to have these more difficult, you know,

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Speaker 4: controversial conversations. You know he's got he's got the notion

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Speaker 4: of congestion. He talked about the Adelaide hills. He's got

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Speaker 4: the notion of of the user pays in his article,

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Speaker 4: he's got the notion of maintenance. You've got the notion

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Speaker 4: of costs. You've gotta got these four different things that

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Speaker 4: he's talking about from from our point of view. When

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Speaker 4: you're looking at Fred, Ultimately, any inefficiency or any additional

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Speaker 4: cost that exists in Fred is borne by the end users.

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Speaker 4: So an inefficiency in in moving phrase from point out

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Speaker 4: to point B, results in higher costs of food at

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Speaker 4: the supermarket, and the bolts and higher costs, and when

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Speaker 4: you go to buy clothes you go to the hardware store,

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Speaker 4: it results in lower returns to farmers. So inefficiency is

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Speaker 4: something that's inherently bad for South Australians. I think the

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Speaker 4: other point that the main point that I think came

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Speaker 4: out of that article was you know who's paying for

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Speaker 4: these new this these this new road And it makes

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Speaker 4: sense he says the farmer and said Gina is not

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Speaker 4: not going to use it. The so on our contention

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Speaker 4: is that this North South Motorway is actually has the

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Speaker 4: potential to be fundamentally change the way that South Australia works,

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Speaker 4: and those guys will ultimately use that road in the

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Speaker 4: fact that the big things are going to eat or

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Speaker 4: the parts for the new Holland tractor are going to

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Speaker 4: come by on North South and ultimately, as you know,

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Speaker 4: as a taxpayer in SOIDE Australia, you don't have to

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Speaker 4: physically use the piece of infrastructure to get the value

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Speaker 4: out of it. You know, I don't physically go to prison,

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Speaker 4: but I get the value out of having a correctional facility.

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Speaker 4: So you don't have to actually use it yourself to

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Speaker 4: get the value out of it. But I think one

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Speaker 4: of the really big things we would like to make

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Speaker 4: sure it keeps in the front foot is this notion

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Speaker 4: of road maintenance. One you're trying to you're trying to

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Speaker 4: find this way is to fund new, big, innovative pieces

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Speaker 4: of infrastructure. But we actually have our current infrastructure that

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Speaker 4: the excise amount writ large that's available for the maintenance

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Speaker 4: of the roads is reducing as people go on to

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Speaker 4: electric vehicles. The real problem that needs to be addressed there,

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Speaker 4: that's that's going to be a short term problem. And yeah,

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Speaker 4: you know, we agree that it has to be a

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Speaker 4: proper discussion, but sure discussion had by by stakeholders is

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Speaker 4: that around you if we're going to put in new,

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Speaker 4: big pieces of infrastructure. Whatever that infrastructure is doesn't have

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Speaker 4: to be transport infrastructure. How is that going to be

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Speaker 4: funded in a way that that is that ultimately the

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Speaker 4: people who benefit from it are the ones paying for it.

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Speaker 4: But because we're a nation, you know, we're funding infrastructure

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Speaker 4: Hobarton and cares that I'm never going to use. Yeah, exactly,

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Speaker 4: but we take that because hey, sometimes we're the ones

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Speaker 4: that are going to get funding for our infrastructure. And frankly,

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Speaker 4: you're a really pleased to see the federal government kick

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Speaker 4: in so much money to fund what's actually transformational FORCIPE Australia.

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Speaker 1: All right, just well I have you, Jonathan, thank you

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Speaker 1: for your points there. And you raise something earlier that's

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Speaker 1: triggered a memory of an email I had yesterday or

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Speaker 1: a text from a listener. You come in about the

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Speaker 1: price of food on shelves, relating back to transport costs,

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Speaker 1: and somebody made the very valid point that over the

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Speaker 1: last six months the price of diesel has come down,

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Speaker 1: diesel fuel that doesn't seem to be reflected in the

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Speaker 1: price on the shelf in supermarkets. Now, you can't control

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Speaker 1: what happens in supermarkets. You're the freight Council. But that

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Speaker 1: is a relative point, isn't it, And a fair point

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Speaker 1: that diesel is cheaper, but that isn't being passed on.

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Speaker 4: It's one of a tremendous and oder cost of the

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Speaker 4: freight industry has to absorb. So diesel is one aspect

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Speaker 4: of it. But we've got wages and if you think

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Speaker 4: of where our products actually come from, a lot of

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Speaker 4: them are coming from international areas. So the cost of

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Speaker 4: ocean freight, for example, and containers has tripled in the

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Speaker 4: past couple of months. So actually what you're seeing in

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Speaker 4: that at the buzzer isn't telling you the whole story.

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Speaker 4: It's telling you a very very small part of the story,

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Speaker 4: albeit for different parts of the industry. Really important.

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Speaker 1: All right, thank you for your comments. I appreciate your time.

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Speaker 4: No worry.

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Speaker 1: Jonathan Wilson, CEI Fright, Counsel of SI