Speaker 1: I'm Ruby Jones and you're listening to seven AM. Last year,
Speaker 1: after months of pressure over youth crime and claims the
Speaker 1: system had become too soft, Victoria passed what it proudly
Speaker 1: called the toughest bail laws in the country. At the time,
Speaker 1: legal and human rights experts warned the laws would put
Speaker 1: more children in custody and disproportionately affect First Nations people.
Speaker 1: Now the Allen government is doubling down. In this week's
Speaker 1: state budget, it said bail refusals were at record highs
Speaker 1: and promised more money for corrections, faster youth crime hearings,
Speaker 1: and a rewrite of sentencing laws. But the deeper question
Speaker 1: hasn't changed. Should bail be a right or a tool
Speaker 1: for crime prevention? Today we're returning to Daniel James's conversation
Speaker 1: with legal academic professor Marilyn McMahon on how media pressure
Speaker 1: and politics are reshaping bail and what that means for justice.
Speaker 1: It's Sunday, May ten, and this episode was originally published
Speaker 1: in March of twenty twenty five.
Speaker 2: Marilyn, the Victorian government recently passed what it says are
Speaker 2: the toughest bail laws in the country, so can you
Speaker 2: tell me about these laws.
Speaker 3: Yes. The Premier certainly called them the toughest bale laws
Speaker 3: ever and said that the reforms will provide a jolt
Speaker 3: to the system.
Speaker 4: Hi, everyone, I just thought i'd jump on here with
Speaker 4: some breaking news tonight from the Victorian Parliament. We've just
Speaker 4: passed the tough new bail laws, the toughest in the country.
Speaker 3: And what was introduced as part of those reforms was
Speaker 3: you had the principle of ramand been your last resort
Speaker 3: for youth offenders was abandoned. People charged with some crimes
Speaker 3: including robbery, carjacking, home invasion and aggravated burglary will now
Speaker 3: find it harder to get bail, and the government has
Speaker 3: reintroduced their crimes of committing an indictable offense while on
Speaker 3: bail and breaching a bail condition. Now, I think what
Speaker 3: we saw was that the legislation was rushed through parliament.
Speaker 5: Tougher bail laws passed Victoria's Parliament in a marathon sitting
Speaker 5: that extended into the early hours of the morning.
Speaker 3: They come into effect in a state where we've already
Speaker 3: got tough bail laws, perhaps the toughest in the country already.
Speaker 3: It's part of a long term trend where we've seen
Speaker 3: bail being turned into a pivotal point for crime prevention. Traditionally,
Speaker 3: bail really operated as a mechanism to ensure people attended
Speaker 3: court for the hearing of their case. But bail bail
Speaker 3: decision making has become much more about the risk that
Speaker 3: a person who's applying for bail will commit an offense
Speaker 3: if released on bail into the community. That really means
Speaker 3: that bail has been politicized and it's now a key
Speaker 3: law and order issue for us, and it's likely I
Speaker 3: think that what we'll see in coming years is that
Speaker 3: more than half the prison population in Victoria will be
Speaker 3: people who'll be held on remand that is they haven't
Speaker 3: been convicted, they've been held prior to the hearing of
Speaker 3: their matter. Now that's I think a very disturbing statistic.
Speaker 1: The Premier has said that these laws are about reducing
Speaker 1: reoffending and making the community safe.
Speaker 6: But for how many decades have governments had reports and
Speaker 6: evidence on their desks about ways to do this that
Speaker 6: don't resort to police and prisons.
Speaker 2: And as these laws were being debated in the Victorian Parliament,
Speaker 2: there were protests outside. So can you talk to me
Speaker 2: about the opposition to this bill. What are people saying.
Speaker 3: You had strong opposition to the bill coming from a
Speaker 3: number of quarters, primarily from legal representatives and organizations, human
Speaker 3: rights organizations, and especially First Nations people and organizations. Lawyers
Speaker 3: and legal organizations emphasized the traditional concerns that bail should
Speaker 3: only be denied in exceptional circumstances because it breaches the
Speaker 3: right to liberty and also it breaches the presumption of innocence.
Speaker 3: Community organizations drew attention to the well known negative consequences
Speaker 3: if people are denied bail. People can lose their job,
Speaker 3: They'll be separated from their families. It causes mental distress
Speaker 3: and also exposes people to the dangers and the stresses
Speaker 3: of a prison environment.
Speaker 7: Haven't we been here before?
Speaker 4: In twenty eighteen, sixty five percent of women were locked
Speaker 4: up for less than a month and release without a sentence.
Speaker 4: I am one of those women.
Speaker 3: You had very strong opposition coming from the Victorian Aboriginal
Speaker 3: Legal Service and other organizations representing First Nations people because
Speaker 3: they are so disproportionately affected by harsh bail laws. And
Speaker 3: we've seen this the terrible case of Veronica Nelson, A
Speaker 3: first Nations woman who died in custody after being denied
Speaker 3: bail for committing offenses showed just how the escalation of
Speaker 3: a minor offense with a vulnerable individual could result in
Speaker 3: such a terrible consequence.
Speaker 6: Victorian Coroner Simon McGregor found today Miss Nelson had been
Speaker 6: treated in a cruel, inhumane and degrading way by corrections
Speaker 6: officers and medical staff in the thirty six hours she'd
Speaker 6: been in custody.
Speaker 3: There's research from the new South Wales Law Reform Commission
Speaker 3: that tells us there'll be a small portion of people
Speaker 3: who are denied bail who will ultimately be found not
Speaker 3: guilty of their offenses with which their charge. That means
Speaker 3: people will have been incarcerated and serve timed in prison
Speaker 3: for offenses for which they're found not guilty. That's wrong.
Speaker 3: I think we've also got very strong opposition coming from
Speaker 3: the Children's Commissioner in Victoria and other organizations representing youth. Basically,
Speaker 3: what they're pointing to is that we have a breach
Speaker 3: of our obligations under the United Nations Convention on the
Speaker 3: Rights of the Child, which specifies that detention should only
Speaker 3: be a measure of last resort for youth. What we've
Speaker 3: got now under these reforms is that young people will
Speaker 3: be treated like adults. When fail, decision makers have to
Speaker 3: decide whether to remand them or release them into custody.
Speaker 3: Very predictably. What will now be experiencing is a significant
Speaker 3: increase in the number of young people who have been
Speaker 3: detained in prisons youth centers in Victoria.
Speaker 2: And these laws, as Premier sat Alan said, are the
Speaker 2: toughest in the country. But other states and territories are
Speaker 2: all moving in the same direction, are they not?
Speaker 3: They are, I think it's unfortunate, But what you see
Speaker 3: in other jurisdictions is the same trend towards increasing putting
Speaker 3: people on remand. Overall, in Australia there's about forty one
Speaker 3: percent of prisoners who are being held on remand, and
Speaker 3: we've seen it in states not only like Victoria, New
Speaker 3: South Wales, South Australia. What's been driving it over a
Speaker 3: period of at least a decade now is concern about
Speaker 3: community safety. So whereas say twenty years ago, you had
Speaker 3: only a small fraction of the prison population being those
Speaker 3: people who are being held on remand. Today in some states,
Speaker 3: like the Act for example, half the prison population is
Speaker 3: comprised of people being held on remand in South Australia,
Speaker 3: the Northern Territory, in New South Wales it's about forty
Speaker 3: five percent of the prison population.
Speaker 2: After the break. How media panic has influenced by all laws.
Speaker 8: From home invasions to stabbings, police pursuits in carjackings, child criminals,
Speaker 8: breaching bail every three hours. It's just out of control.
Speaker 8: Ridolfo Arena's jeep was allegedly by teens who were already
Speaker 8: out on multiple counts of bail.
Speaker 2: Marowin you mentioned that these type of bail laws we're
Speaker 2: seeing in Australia have been influenced by media and political
Speaker 2: narratives around crime and a growing concern with community safety.
Speaker 2: So tell me about the pressures and narratives that have
Speaker 2: influenced introduction of these biol laws.
Speaker 3: Well, I think in Victoria we've seen there's been a
Speaker 3: recent increase in the crime rate and that has generated
Speaker 3: considerable concern. We've seen also that police have agitated in
Speaker 3: relation to young offenders and they've asked for harsher mail
Speaker 3: laws to deal with them. And we've also seen the
Speaker 3: premiere introducing the notion of a review of bail laws
Speaker 3: just prior to the Werribee by election.
Speaker 7: Daily we get calls and messages from Melbournians who are
Speaker 7: sick of not feeling safe in their own homes. Instead
Speaker 7: of action, we get empty words from our leaders. Enough
Speaker 7: is enough.
Speaker 3: And then you had a massive media campaign conducted by
Speaker 3: two radio personalities.
Speaker 7: Joined our campaign to petition the Victorian Parliament It's time
Speaker 7: for action. Bring about bail reform for repeat offenders that
Speaker 7: puts the community first, yes and holds offenders accountable severity.
Speaker 3: Then the Herald's son joined in and you've got Channel
Speaker 3: nine YEWS, which is also promoting fear of crime being
Speaker 3: committed by people who are on bail.
Speaker 5: Under pressure, the Premier is talking task.
Speaker 4: The laws need to be changed and they will.
Speaker 5: But not quickly enough. The mother of two, Adele Andrew's
Speaker 5: left terrified after machette wielding thieves broke in while her
Speaker 5: family slept early Tuesday morning.
Speaker 1: Something's very, very wrong and I don't know what it's
Speaker 1: going to take.
Speaker 3: That's a powerful conjunction of circumstances that favors the introduction
Speaker 3: of punitive bail laws.
Speaker 2: And this is not the first time that media attention
Speaker 2: has driven a tightening of bail laws in Australia, is it.
Speaker 3: No, you saw exactly the same thing from about twenty
Speaker 3: twelve to twenty fifteen. You had a couple of very
Speaker 3: high profile affairs has been committed in Victoria. Adrian Bailey
Speaker 3: who killed Jill Maher, Sean Price who killed massa new
Speaker 3: Coatich and then you had James Garguzulis who was responsible
Speaker 3: for the Burke Street killings. Those high profile crimes generated
Speaker 3: again enormous media concern, and that media concern drove the
Speaker 3: Coglan Inquiry which in twenty seventeen twenty eighteen generated very
Speaker 3: harsh bail laws in Victoria. So again what you see
Speaker 3: is high profile but unrepresentative crimes driving law reform.
Speaker 2: So there's been a lot of reporting on youth crime
Speaker 2: in Victoria, in particular repeat use offenders driving a Verizon crime.
Speaker 2: So what do these stats actually tell us at the moment.
Speaker 3: Well, there's obviously been modeling done by the Victorian government,
Speaker 3: but they haven't released it, so we don't really know
Speaker 3: what's driving them. We do know that the police have
Speaker 3: told us that they are concerned about a small group
Speaker 3: of vocidivist youth offenders and that is driving their concern
Speaker 3: for harsher bail laws. What we've seen is an increase
Speaker 3: in youth crime in not only in Victoria but elsewhere,
Speaker 3: and I think that's been a potent driver of the
Speaker 3: bail reforms, in particular the abandonment of that principle that
Speaker 3: you only use imprisonment or remand as a last resort
Speaker 3: when you're dealing with young offenders in bail.
Speaker 2: So there's a question here about the balance between ensuring
Speaker 2: community safety, which is a laudable goal, and protecting individual rights.
Speaker 2: So where do you think the balance sits.
Speaker 3: Well, I think we've lost any sense of balance in
Speaker 3: the current debate. If we take a step back and
Speaker 3: get away from the headlines and be very emotionally driven
Speaker 3: media portrayals that we've seen in recent weeks, we have
Speaker 3: to remember, as a community, we have an interest in
Speaker 3: protecting people's rights. Much of the discussion in recent weeks
Speaker 3: has presumed that people on bail are guilty of their offenses.
Speaker 3: I think that's deeply troubling. So I think we need
Speaker 3: to take a step back and realize that once again
Speaker 3: we are balancing different interests here. There's not only those
Speaker 3: members of the community who've been traumatized by violent crime,
Speaker 3: and they certainly need our attention. I think the second
Speaker 3: thing we need to remember is that much offending is
Speaker 3: related to mental health issues, drug and alcohol problems, family violence,
Speaker 3: and social disadvantage. Tackling those issues will really contribute to
Speaker 3: community safety as well, because they underlie a lot of
Speaker 3: the offending that we're seeing. But locking up people in
Speaker 3: prison is a short term solution. We know that people
Speaker 3: have gone to prison aren't deterred, and there's research from
Speaker 3: the United States that suggests if you put a person
Speaker 3: in jail, even for a short period of time we're
Speaker 3: talking maybe three or four days, you increase the likelihood
Speaker 3: that further down the track person will have more contact
Speaker 3: with the criminal justice system. So I think we have
Speaker 3: a really unfortunate paradox now there is people who are
Speaker 3: demanding that we put more people in prison to protect
Speaker 3: the community. May actually be giving us a short term solution,
Speaker 3: but a long term problem. We've got what I regard
Speaker 3: as a return to draconian type bail laws that will
Speaker 3: lock up lots of people who probably shouldn't be in jail.
Speaker 3: We're capturing a broad category of people. What we really
Speaker 3: need to do is make sure that we only remand
Speaker 3: those people who are a serious risk to the community,
Speaker 3: if at least on bail. I think that the very
Speaker 3: broad approach that's been adopted by the government is one
Speaker 3: that lacks consultation, that lacks adequate reflection, and therefore has
Speaker 3: all the hallmarks of a aggressive bail policy.
Speaker 2: Marilyn, thank you so much for your time.
Speaker 3: Thanks to ane Ye.
Speaker 1: I'm Ruby Jones, thanks for listening. Seven Am. Will be
Speaker 1: back tomorrow with an episode. On the first week of
Speaker 1: the Royal Commission into Anti Semitism and Social Cohesion.
Speaker 9: Started calling me all sorts of racial slurs, among them
Speaker 9: dirty Jew, started doing the Nazi salute and started doing
Speaker 9: a gun finger at my forehead, imitating like you wanted
Speaker 9: to kill me.
Speaker 1: The Royal Commission has heard firsthand accounts of hatred and
Speaker 1: harm experienced by Jewish Australians, but it also needs to
Speaker 1: answer a difficult question. What counts as anti Semitism and
Speaker 1: where is the line between political speech criticism of Israel
Speaker 1: and hatred directed at Jews. There's got to be some
Speaker 1: guardrails to protect people from harm.
Speaker 2: The question is what is harm?
Speaker 7: But often we're talking about things that exist in the
Speaker 7: gray area, and that's where this gets from really difficult.
Speaker 1: That'll be in your feed tomorrow. See that