WEBVTT - The tabloid panic rewriting bail laws

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<v Speaker 1>I'm Ruby Jones and you're listening to seven AM. Last year,

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<v Speaker 1>after months of pressure over youth crime and claims the

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<v Speaker 1>system had become too soft, Victoria passed what it proudly

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<v Speaker 1>called the toughest bail laws in the country. At the time,

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<v Speaker 1>legal and human rights experts warned the laws would put

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<v Speaker 1>more children in custody and disproportionately affect First Nations people.

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<v Speaker 1>Now the Allen government is doubling down. In this week's

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<v Speaker 1>state budget, it said bail refusals were at record highs

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<v Speaker 1>and promised more money for corrections, faster youth crime hearings,

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<v Speaker 1>and a rewrite of sentencing laws. But the deeper question

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<v Speaker 1>hasn't changed. Should bail be a right or a tool

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<v Speaker 1>for crime prevention? Today we're returning to Daniel James's conversation

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<v Speaker 1>with legal academic professor Marilyn McMahon on how media pressure

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<v Speaker 1>and politics are reshaping bail and what that means for justice.

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<v Speaker 1>It's Sunday, May ten, and this episode was originally published

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<v Speaker 1>in March of twenty twenty five.

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<v Speaker 2>Marilyn, the Victorian government recently passed what it says are

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<v Speaker 2>the toughest bail laws in the country, so can you

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<v Speaker 2>tell me about these laws.

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<v Speaker 3>Yes. The Premier certainly called them the toughest bale laws

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<v Speaker 3>ever and said that the reforms will provide a jolt

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<v Speaker 3>to the system.

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<v Speaker 4>Hi, everyone, I just thought i'd jump on here with

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<v Speaker 4>some breaking news tonight from the Victorian Parliament. We've just

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<v Speaker 4>passed the tough new bail laws, the toughest in the country.

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<v Speaker 3>And what was introduced as part of those reforms was

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<v Speaker 3>you had the principle of ramand been your last resort

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<v Speaker 3>for youth offenders was abandoned. People charged with some crimes

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<v Speaker 3>including robbery, carjacking, home invasion and aggravated burglary will now

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<v Speaker 3>find it harder to get bail, and the government has

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<v Speaker 3>reintroduced their crimes of committing an indictable offense while on

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<v Speaker 3>bail and breaching a bail condition. Now, I think what

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<v Speaker 3>we saw was that the legislation was rushed through parliament.

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<v Speaker 5>Tougher bail laws passed Victoria's Parliament in a marathon sitting

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<v Speaker 5>that extended into the early hours of the morning.

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<v Speaker 3>They come into effect in a state where we've already

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<v Speaker 3>got tough bail laws, perhaps the toughest in the country already.

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<v Speaker 3>It's part of a long term trend where we've seen

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<v Speaker 3>bail being turned into a pivotal point for crime prevention. Traditionally,

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<v Speaker 3>bail really operated as a mechanism to ensure people attended

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<v Speaker 3>court for the hearing of their case. But bail bail

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<v Speaker 3>decision making has become much more about the risk that

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<v Speaker 3>a person who's applying for bail will commit an offense

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<v Speaker 3>if released on bail into the community. That really means

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<v Speaker 3>that bail has been politicized and it's now a key

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<v Speaker 3>law and order issue for us, and it's likely I

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<v Speaker 3>think that what we'll see in coming years is that

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<v Speaker 3>more than half the prison population in Victoria will be

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<v Speaker 3>people who'll be held on remand that is they haven't

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<v Speaker 3>been convicted, they've been held prior to the hearing of

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<v Speaker 3>their matter. Now that's I think a very disturbing statistic.

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<v Speaker 1>The Premier has said that these laws are about reducing

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<v Speaker 1>reoffending and making the community safe.

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<v Speaker 6>But for how many decades have governments had reports and

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<v Speaker 6>evidence on their desks about ways to do this that

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<v Speaker 6>don't resort to police and prisons.

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<v Speaker 2>And as these laws were being debated in the Victorian Parliament,

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<v Speaker 2>there were protests outside. So can you talk to me

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<v Speaker 2>about the opposition to this bill. What are people saying.

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<v Speaker 3>You had strong opposition to the bill coming from a

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<v Speaker 3>number of quarters, primarily from legal representatives and organizations, human

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<v Speaker 3>rights organizations, and especially First Nations people and organizations. Lawyers

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<v Speaker 3>and legal organizations emphasized the traditional concerns that bail should

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<v Speaker 3>only be denied in exceptional circumstances because it breaches the

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<v Speaker 3>right to liberty and also it breaches the presumption of innocence.

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<v Speaker 3>Community organizations drew attention to the well known negative consequences

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<v Speaker 3>if people are denied bail. People can lose their job,

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<v Speaker 3>They'll be separated from their families. It causes mental distress

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<v Speaker 3>and also exposes people to the dangers and the stresses

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<v Speaker 3>of a prison environment.

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<v Speaker 7>Haven't we been here before?

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<v Speaker 4>In twenty eighteen, sixty five percent of women were locked

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<v Speaker 4>up for less than a month and release without a sentence.

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<v Speaker 4>I am one of those women.

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<v Speaker 3>You had very strong opposition coming from the Victorian Aboriginal

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<v Speaker 3>Legal Service and other organizations representing First Nations people because

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<v Speaker 3>they are so disproportionately affected by harsh bail laws. And

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<v Speaker 3>we've seen this the terrible case of Veronica Nelson, A

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<v Speaker 3>first Nations woman who died in custody after being denied

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<v Speaker 3>bail for committing offenses showed just how the escalation of

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<v Speaker 3>a minor offense with a vulnerable individual could result in

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<v Speaker 3>such a terrible consequence.

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<v Speaker 6>Victorian Coroner Simon McGregor found today Miss Nelson had been

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<v Speaker 6>treated in a cruel, inhumane and degrading way by corrections

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<v Speaker 6>officers and medical staff in the thirty six hours she'd

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<v Speaker 6>been in custody.

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<v Speaker 3>There's research from the new South Wales Law Reform Commission

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<v Speaker 3>that tells us there'll be a small portion of people

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<v Speaker 3>who are denied bail who will ultimately be found not

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<v Speaker 3>guilty of their offenses with which their charge. That means

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<v Speaker 3>people will have been incarcerated and serve timed in prison

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<v Speaker 3>for offenses for which they're found not guilty. That's wrong.

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<v Speaker 3>I think we've also got very strong opposition coming from

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<v Speaker 3>the Children's Commissioner in Victoria and other organizations representing youth. Basically,

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<v Speaker 3>what they're pointing to is that we have a breach

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<v Speaker 3>of our obligations under the United Nations Convention on the

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<v Speaker 3>Rights of the Child, which specifies that detention should only

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<v Speaker 3>be a measure of last resort for youth. What we've

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<v Speaker 3>got now under these reforms is that young people will

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<v Speaker 3>be treated like adults. When fail, decision makers have to

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<v Speaker 3>decide whether to remand them or release them into custody.

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<v Speaker 3>Very predictably. What will now be experiencing is a significant

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<v Speaker 3>increase in the number of young people who have been

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<v Speaker 3>detained in prisons youth centers in Victoria.

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<v Speaker 2>And these laws, as Premier sat Alan said, are the

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<v Speaker 2>toughest in the country. But other states and territories are

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<v Speaker 2>all moving in the same direction, are they not?

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<v Speaker 3>They are, I think it's unfortunate, But what you see

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<v Speaker 3>in other jurisdictions is the same trend towards increasing putting

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<v Speaker 3>people on remand. Overall, in Australia there's about forty one

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<v Speaker 3>percent of prisoners who are being held on remand, and

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<v Speaker 3>we've seen it in states not only like Victoria, New

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<v Speaker 3>South Wales, South Australia. What's been driving it over a

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<v Speaker 3>period of at least a decade now is concern about

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<v Speaker 3>community safety. So whereas say twenty years ago, you had

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<v Speaker 3>only a small fraction of the prison population being those

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<v Speaker 3>people who are being held on remand. Today in some states,

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<v Speaker 3>like the Act for example, half the prison population is

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<v Speaker 3>comprised of people being held on remand in South Australia,

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<v Speaker 3>the Northern Territory, in New South Wales it's about forty

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<v Speaker 3>five percent of the prison population.

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<v Speaker 2>After the break. How media panic has influenced by all laws.

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<v Speaker 8>From home invasions to stabbings, police pursuits in carjackings, child criminals,

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<v Speaker 8>breaching bail every three hours. It's just out of control.

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<v Speaker 8>Ridolfo Arena's jeep was allegedly by teens who were already

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<v Speaker 8>out on multiple counts of bail.

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<v Speaker 2>Marowin you mentioned that these type of bail laws we're

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<v Speaker 2>seeing in Australia have been influenced by media and political

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<v Speaker 2>narratives around crime and a growing concern with community safety.

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<v Speaker 2>So tell me about the pressures and narratives that have

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<v Speaker 2>influenced introduction of these biol laws.

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<v Speaker 3>Well, I think in Victoria we've seen there's been a

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<v Speaker 3>recent increase in the crime rate and that has generated

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<v Speaker 3>considerable concern. We've seen also that police have agitated in

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<v Speaker 3>relation to young offenders and they've asked for harsher mail

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<v Speaker 3>laws to deal with them. And we've also seen the

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<v Speaker 3>premiere introducing the notion of a review of bail laws

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<v Speaker 3>just prior to the Werribee by election.

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<v Speaker 7>Daily we get calls and messages from Melbournians who are

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<v Speaker 7>sick of not feeling safe in their own homes. Instead

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<v Speaker 7>of action, we get empty words from our leaders. Enough

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<v Speaker 7>is enough.

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<v Speaker 3>And then you had a massive media campaign conducted by

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<v Speaker 3>two radio personalities.

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<v Speaker 7>Joined our campaign to petition the Victorian Parliament It's time

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<v Speaker 7>for action. Bring about bail reform for repeat offenders that

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<v Speaker 7>puts the community first, yes and holds offenders accountable severity.

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<v Speaker 3>Then the Herald's son joined in and you've got Channel

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<v Speaker 3>nine YEWS, which is also promoting fear of crime being

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<v Speaker 3>committed by people who are on bail.

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<v Speaker 5>Under pressure, the Premier is talking task.

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<v Speaker 4>The laws need to be changed and they will.

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<v Speaker 5>But not quickly enough. The mother of two, Adele Andrew's

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<v Speaker 5>left terrified after machette wielding thieves broke in while her

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<v Speaker 5>family slept early Tuesday morning.

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<v Speaker 1>Something's very, very wrong and I don't know what it's

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<v Speaker 1>going to take.

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<v Speaker 3>That's a powerful conjunction of circumstances that favors the introduction

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<v Speaker 3>of punitive bail laws.

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<v Speaker 2>And this is not the first time that media attention

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<v Speaker 2>has driven a tightening of bail laws in Australia, is it.

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<v Speaker 3>No, you saw exactly the same thing from about twenty

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<v Speaker 3>twelve to twenty fifteen. You had a couple of very

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<v Speaker 3>high profile affairs has been committed in Victoria. Adrian Bailey

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<v Speaker 3>who killed Jill Maher, Sean Price who killed massa new

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<v Speaker 3>Coatich and then you had James Garguzulis who was responsible

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<v Speaker 3>for the Burke Street killings. Those high profile crimes generated

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<v Speaker 3>again enormous media concern, and that media concern drove the

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<v Speaker 3>Coglan Inquiry which in twenty seventeen twenty eighteen generated very

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<v Speaker 3>harsh bail laws in Victoria. So again what you see

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<v Speaker 3>is high profile but unrepresentative crimes driving law reform.

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<v Speaker 2>So there's been a lot of reporting on youth crime

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<v Speaker 2>in Victoria, in particular repeat use offenders driving a Verizon crime.

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<v Speaker 2>So what do these stats actually tell us at the moment.

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<v Speaker 3>Well, there's obviously been modeling done by the Victorian government,

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<v Speaker 3>but they haven't released it, so we don't really know

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<v Speaker 3>what's driving them. We do know that the police have

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<v Speaker 3>told us that they are concerned about a small group

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<v Speaker 3>of vocidivist youth offenders and that is driving their concern

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<v Speaker 3>for harsher bail laws. What we've seen is an increase

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<v Speaker 3>in youth crime in not only in Victoria but elsewhere,

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<v Speaker 3>and I think that's been a potent driver of the

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<v Speaker 3>bail reforms, in particular the abandonment of that principle that

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<v Speaker 3>you only use imprisonment or remand as a last resort

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<v Speaker 3>when you're dealing with young offenders in bail.

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<v Speaker 2>So there's a question here about the balance between ensuring

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<v Speaker 2>community safety, which is a laudable goal, and protecting individual rights.

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<v Speaker 2>So where do you think the balance sits.

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<v Speaker 3>Well, I think we've lost any sense of balance in

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<v Speaker 3>the current debate. If we take a step back and

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<v Speaker 3>get away from the headlines and be very emotionally driven

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<v Speaker 3>media portrayals that we've seen in recent weeks, we have

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<v Speaker 3>to remember, as a community, we have an interest in

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<v Speaker 3>protecting people's rights. Much of the discussion in recent weeks

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<v Speaker 3>has presumed that people on bail are guilty of their offenses.

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<v Speaker 3>I think that's deeply troubling. So I think we need

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<v Speaker 3>to take a step back and realize that once again

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<v Speaker 3>we are balancing different interests here. There's not only those

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<v Speaker 3>members of the community who've been traumatized by violent crime,

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<v Speaker 3>and they certainly need our attention. I think the second

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<v Speaker 3>thing we need to remember is that much offending is

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<v Speaker 3>related to mental health issues, drug and alcohol problems, family violence,

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<v Speaker 3>and social disadvantage. Tackling those issues will really contribute to

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<v Speaker 3>community safety as well, because they underlie a lot of

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<v Speaker 3>the offending that we're seeing. But locking up people in

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<v Speaker 3>prison is a short term solution. We know that people

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<v Speaker 3>have gone to prison aren't deterred, and there's research from

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<v Speaker 3>the United States that suggests if you put a person

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<v Speaker 3>in jail, even for a short period of time we're

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<v Speaker 3>talking maybe three or four days, you increase the likelihood

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<v Speaker 3>that further down the track person will have more contact

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<v Speaker 3>with the criminal justice system. So I think we have

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<v Speaker 3>a really unfortunate paradox now there is people who are

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<v Speaker 3>demanding that we put more people in prison to protect

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<v Speaker 3>the community. May actually be giving us a short term solution,

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<v Speaker 3>but a long term problem. We've got what I regard

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<v Speaker 3>as a return to draconian type bail laws that will

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<v Speaker 3>lock up lots of people who probably shouldn't be in jail.

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<v Speaker 3>We're capturing a broad category of people. What we really

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<v Speaker 3>need to do is make sure that we only remand

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<v Speaker 3>those people who are a serious risk to the community,

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<v Speaker 3>if at least on bail. I think that the very

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<v Speaker 3>broad approach that's been adopted by the government is one

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<v Speaker 3>that lacks consultation, that lacks adequate reflection, and therefore has

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<v Speaker 3>all the hallmarks of a aggressive bail policy.

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<v Speaker 2>Marilyn, thank you so much for your time.

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<v Speaker 3>Thanks to ane Ye.

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<v Speaker 1>I'm Ruby Jones, thanks for listening. Seven Am. Will be

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<v Speaker 1>back tomorrow with an episode. On the first week of

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<v Speaker 1>the Royal Commission into Anti Semitism and Social Cohesion.

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<v Speaker 9>Started calling me all sorts of racial slurs, among them

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<v Speaker 9>dirty Jew, started doing the Nazi salute and started doing

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<v Speaker 9>a gun finger at my forehead, imitating like you wanted

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<v Speaker 9>to kill me.

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<v Speaker 1>The Royal Commission has heard firsthand accounts of hatred and

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<v Speaker 1>harm experienced by Jewish Australians, but it also needs to

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<v Speaker 1>answer a difficult question. What counts as anti Semitism and

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<v Speaker 1>where is the line between political speech criticism of Israel

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<v Speaker 1>and hatred directed at Jews. There's got to be some

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<v Speaker 1>guardrails to protect people from harm.

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<v Speaker 2>The question is what is harm?

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<v Speaker 7>But often we're talking about things that exist in the

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<v Speaker 7>gray area, and that's where this gets from really difficult.

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<v Speaker 1>That'll be in your feed tomorrow. See that