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Speaker 1: This episode contains adult themes and references to violence. This

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Speaker 1: podcast series is brought to you by Me Headley Thomas

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Speaker 1: and the Australian Investigative Journalism, particularly in cases of unsolved murder,

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Speaker 1: is very risky and of course it is almost always costly.

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Speaker 2: From time to time, those risks and the.

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Speaker 1: Costs escalate sharply because people who believe their reputations have

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Speaker 1: been seriously harmed by my reporting engage lawyers and then

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Speaker 1: sue us for defamation. When these defamation cases go to court,

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Speaker 1: things can really spiral. You will recall that Shandy's former boyfriend,

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Speaker 1: John Perros began a defamation action against me, my employer,

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Speaker 1: and Shunner. Shandy Blackburn's sister. John's defamation action, as set

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Speaker 1: out by his lawyers in documents filed in court, revolves

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Speaker 1: around episode thirteen of Shandy's story, right back in late

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Speaker 1: twenty twenty one. Here's a reminder of some things which

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Speaker 1: Shunner said in that episode triggering the defamation action. We

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Speaker 1: are a long way into this series and up to

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Speaker 1: now you haven't heard Shandy's sister Shanner or her mother

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Speaker 1: Vicki disclose their views about the murderer's identity. This has

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Speaker 1: been a deliberate omission. I wanted listeners to make their

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Speaker 1: own judgments about this untainted by the family position. But

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Speaker 1: it's now time to hear it and to understand some

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Speaker 1: of the reasons which have informed their views.

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Speaker 3: Am I allowed to say that there's absolutely no doubt

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Speaker 3: in our minds that John Perris is the one that

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Speaker 3: killed Shandy Bluckburn.

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Speaker 4: On matter of fact, it was him.

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Speaker 2: How could you be so sure?

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Speaker 3: Because I've seen more evidence than what was presented at

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Speaker 3: the trial. We know the evidence that was ruled out

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Speaker 3: before the trial, we know the evidence that hasn't been seen,

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Speaker 3: and it's undeniable. When you have seen all that evidence

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Speaker 3: together that there is any other person responsible for this.

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Speaker 1: Then what you are saying is that he's got away

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Speaker 1: with murder.

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Speaker 3: I think it's a letdown in our justice system.

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Speaker 1: Now, for this chapter of episode eighteen of Shandy's Legacy,

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Speaker 1: in late twenty twenty five, I'm talking to John Paul Cashen,

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Speaker 1: a senior lawyer who specializes in defamation. JP, as we

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Speaker 1: call our friend and longtime advisor, is a partner with

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Speaker 1: the law firm Thompson Gear. I telephone JP so that

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Speaker 1: he could help me explain a defamation case which we

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Speaker 1: have been strenuously defending. I haven't scripted questions. We'll just

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Speaker 1: talk conversationally. I'll start off JP. In December of twenty

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Speaker 1: twenty one, episode thirteen of Shandy Story was released to

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Speaker 1: subscribers of The Australian and then of course to everybody else.

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Speaker 1: And in episode thirteen there was my interview with Shanna

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Speaker 1: Blackburn and she reflected the view that the coroner had

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Speaker 1: come to, which was that Shandy died as a result

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Speaker 1: of an attack by John Perros. John Perros has sued

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Speaker 1: over that episode that was published four years ago. Can

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Speaker 1: you tell us where we're up to with the defamation

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Speaker 1: battle that we are defending. First, John issued proceedings in Perth.

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Speaker 1: Those proceedings were then transferred to the Queensland Courts. Then

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Speaker 1: in August of twenty twenty four, we had John's case

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Speaker 1: thrown out at an early stage. The key question in

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Speaker 1: that case was whether John had suffered serious harm by

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Speaker 1: publication of episode thirteen. When a court's looking at whether

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Speaker 1: someone suffered serious harm, they have to look at the

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Speaker 1: person's reputation as it existed before the publication, and then

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Speaker 1: as it existed after the publication. So in this case

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Speaker 1: we had to put on some evidence about what John

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Speaker 1: Perros's reputation was before episode thirteen and what his reputation

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Speaker 1: was after episode thirteen. This is new law in Australia

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Speaker 1: in twenty twenty one, right around the time that Episode

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Speaker 1: thirteen was published, So there aren't really many cases that

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Speaker 1: have looked at this issue on what evidence can you

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Speaker 1: rely on to look at what someone's reputation is.

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Speaker 5: No one knows exactly what your reputation is. We can't

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Speaker 5: go and speak to every person in Australia to find

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Speaker 5: out what they think of Headley Thomas. A court has

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Speaker 5: to make an assessment on what a person's reputation is,

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Speaker 5: and so it's really quite a difficult exercise for a

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Speaker 5: court to sit down and say, okay, what was the

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Speaker 5: reputation of John Perros? What did the average Australian know

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Speaker 5: and think of him prior to episode thirteen being published.

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Speaker 2: So there was certainly a fair bit.

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Speaker 5: Of work for us to do in terms of legal

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Speaker 5: argument with the judge about what things he could take

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Speaker 5: into account when trying to figure out what John's reputation was.

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Speaker 1: And one of the key things was the actual finding

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Speaker 1: of the Central Coroner for Queensland, David O'Connell, who conducted

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Speaker 1: the inquest in twenty nineteen. Here's a reminder from episode

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Speaker 1: eighteen of Shandy's story, A full year pass before Coroner

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Speaker 1: David O'Connell brought the inquest together again to deliver his

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Speaker 1: findings in a seventy seven page document. It points the

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Speaker 1: finger squarely at John Perros. These are O'Connell's words from

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Speaker 1: his findings. It's not his voice.

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Speaker 6: I find the sequence of events as captured by CCTV

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Speaker 6: at eighteen Juliet Street points directly to the driver of

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Speaker 6: that vehicle, mister Parros, as being the person who concealed

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Speaker 6: himself in the foliage outside the guide's hut while Miss

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Speaker 6: Blackburn passed, then ran towards her as she was entering

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Speaker 6: or about to enter Boddington Street, and is the person

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Speaker 6: who attacked Miss Blackburn and caused the injuries which resulted

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Speaker 6: in her death.

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Speaker 1: It's always important to stress that the Central Coroner's finding

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Speaker 1: in twenty twenty came three years after a seventh print

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Speaker 1: murder trial in which John Perros was acquitted over Shandy's murder.

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Speaker 1: The jury in the murder trial took just two hours

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Speaker 1: to reach it's not guilty verdict. Now, let's return to

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Speaker 1: the conversation with our defamation lawyer, John Paul Cashen, who

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Speaker 1: spoke to me shortly before the release of this episode,

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Speaker 1: also eighteen of the sequel series, Shandy's Legacy. If that's

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Speaker 1: a finding that's been made against you by a coroner

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Speaker 1: who is a magistrate, and that's been widely reported, as

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Speaker 1: it was before I did the podcast series, then that's

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Speaker 1: going to be a bit of a blow to your reputation,

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Speaker 1: is it not.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, you would certainly think so, wouldn't you. So the

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Speaker 5: coroner made a finding that John Peros killed Shandy, but

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Speaker 5: he didn't go so far as saying he murdered Shandy.

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Speaker 5: And of course that's not his job. The coroner's job

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Speaker 5: is to find out what happened and to make recommendations

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Speaker 5: to prevent similar deaths happening in future. It's not his

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Speaker 5: job to make a finding of guilt or innocence of murder.

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Speaker 5: The coroner made as strong a findings as it's possible

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Speaker 5: for a coroner to make. So, really, what John's argument

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Speaker 5: is as well, I might have been found by the

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Speaker 5: coroner but I was acquitted in a criminal trial, and

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Speaker 5: therefore I'm still a free man. I'm still entitled to

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Speaker 5: a presumption of innocence, and so the coroner's finding doesn't

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Speaker 5: quite damage my reputation to the point that others might

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Speaker 5: think it does.

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Speaker 1: Justice Peter Applegarth actually listened to episodes one two, in fact,

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Speaker 1: every episode including episode thirteen before coming to his finding,

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Speaker 1: didn't he he did.

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Speaker 5: There's really two things that Justice Applegarth was looking at

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Speaker 5: in this case. One was, did the coroner's finding mean

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Speaker 5: that John effectively had a reputation as Shandy's murderer throughout

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Speaker 5: Australia by the time episode thirteen was published? And the

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Speaker 5: second thing was had previous media articles about the case?

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Speaker 5: Did publication of those articles mean that John had a

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Speaker 5: reputation as Shandy's murderer prior to episode thirteen. John's argument was, no,

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Speaker 5: I was known as someone who was suspected as having

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Speaker 5: murdered Shandy, and I was known as someone who was

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Speaker 5: tried and acquitted of having murdered Shandy. But I was

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Speaker 5: not known as the person who had actually murdered her.

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Speaker 5: And he says that's what episode thirteen changed. Now, John

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Speaker 5: says prior to episode thirteen that that distinction was very important.

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Speaker 5: He says, well, the coroner just says I killed her,

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Speaker 5: and I was acquitted of her murder at the hearing

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Speaker 5: before Justice Applegarth. We said that in practice there's no

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Speaker 5: difference between the two things. In this case, that the

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Speaker 5: way Shandy was killed means that his reputation had already

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Speaker 5: been damaged to the extent that episode thirteen couldn't do

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Speaker 5: any further damage to it.

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Speaker 1: More than twelve months ago, Justice Peter Applegarth found in

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Speaker 1: our favor and we thought perhaps then the deaf case

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Speaker 1: would end. And did he form a view that by

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Speaker 1: the time episode thirteen was published, John Perros's reputation was

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Speaker 1: in tatters because of what had been published in the

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Speaker 1: previous episodes, that is, the episodes before thirteen.

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Speaker 5: That's right, and that's partly based on the fact that

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Speaker 5: those previous episodes referred to the coroner's finding, and so

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Speaker 5: anyone listening to episode thirteen was likely to have already

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Speaker 5: heard about what the coroner found about John, and therefore

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Speaker 5: there wasn't really any more damage to be done by

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Speaker 5: the time they heard episode thirteen.

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Speaker 1: These are the now retired Justice Applegarth's words from his

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Speaker 1: judgment of August twenty twenty four, it's not his voice.

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Speaker 7: By the time Episode thirteen was first published, the plaintiff

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Speaker 7: had a damaged reputation in the relevant sector among listeners

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Speaker 7: to the podcast. He would have been viewed by listeners

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Speaker 7: to be the person who killed Miss Blackburn. They would

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Speaker 7: not simply have known him to be the person who

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Speaker 7: a coroner found to be Miss Blackburn's killer. They would

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Speaker 7: have formed the view based on the evidence and arguments

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Speaker 7: placed before them in the series, that the coroner's finding

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Speaker 7: was correct.

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Speaker 1: However, John and his lawyers have appealed that decision, and

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Speaker 1: we've needed to defend ourselves and defend Shanna, who's also

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Speaker 1: being sued.

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Speaker 5: That's right.

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Speaker 2: John appealed.

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Speaker 5: Was just a one day hearing before the Queensland Court

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Speaker 5: of Appeal. They're looking at that question of whether Episode

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Speaker 5: thirteen really did do serious harm to his reputation. There's

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Speaker 5: a lot of case lord the old English cases. It's

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Speaker 5: quite a technical legal argument about what sort of evidence

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Speaker 5: can be relied on to make that decision, What is

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Speaker 5: the effect of the coroner's finding in making that decision.

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Speaker 5: Can the court look at old newspaper articles to look

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Speaker 5: at what John's reputation was prior to episode thirteen. And

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Speaker 5: we're still waiting on a decision from the Court of Appeal.

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Speaker 5: So until we get that decision, the case is really

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Speaker 5: just in limbo.

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Speaker 1: It feels like this is a lot of skirmishing before

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Speaker 1: the main event, before an actual trial, a defamation trial

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Speaker 1: where witnesses are cross examined and there are pretty testy exchanges,

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Speaker 1: no doubt between the lawyers and those in the witness box.

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Speaker 2: These are just sort of warm up events, aren't they.

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Speaker 5: That's right, We've been really bogged down in all these

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Speaker 5: preliminary arguments. If John winds the appeal and the proceeding

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Speaker 5: is re enlivened, the Australian will have to put on

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Speaker 5: its defense and then we'll head towards a trial.

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Speaker 2: And in a.

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Speaker 1: Trial, hypothetically, if one proceeds, what have we indicated that

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Speaker 1: we would argue.

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Speaker 5: We've already indicated to the court that we will plead

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Speaker 5: the truce defense, and that is we will say that

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Speaker 5: John did in fact kill Shandy. Now to succeed on

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Speaker 5: that defense, the Australian has to put on all the

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Speaker 5: relevant witnesses and evidence before the court and has to

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Speaker 5: prove as a matter of fact that that's what happened,

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Speaker 5: as well as that we've indicated that we would plead

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Speaker 5: some what I generally call public interest type defenses, which

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Speaker 5: are defense is usually where someone is saying, this is

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Speaker 5: in the public interest, this is a story that needed

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Speaker 5: to be told, and therefore it's protected from defamation or With.

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Speaker 1: That kind of defense, it sounds like it would be

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Speaker 1: almost a quasi murder trial, but without the really serious

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Speaker 1: consequences of a murder trial, such as what unfolded in

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Speaker 1: Chris Dawson's case. It's like a civil matter but attempting

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Speaker 1: to prove that John did in fact kill Shandy.

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Speaker 2: I think that's realistic.

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Speaker 5: The murder trial was heard on the test of beyond

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Speaker 5: reasonable doubt standard of proof, as we call it. A

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Speaker 5: civil trial proceeds on a different standard of proof, with

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Speaker 5: slightly different rules of evidence, slightly different conduct of the trial,

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Speaker 5: but ultimately asking this question, did John murder Shandy or not?

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Speaker 1: In a case such as this, where we're the ones

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Speaker 1: being sued by John Perros, would he have to go

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Speaker 1: into the witness box, which is something that was avoided

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Speaker 1: during his actual murder trial.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, almost certainly he would. Defamation plaintiffs usually getting the

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Speaker 5: witness box to talk about the harm and damage that

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Speaker 5: the publication did to them. They talk about their hurt feelings,

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Speaker 5: they're upset things that other people have said to them

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Speaker 5: since the publication, So it's very common for them to

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Speaker 5: get in the witness box. It's not an inevitability, but

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Speaker 5: I think it would be very likely in this case

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Speaker 5: that he would need to get in the witness box.

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Speaker 5: This is quite a novel area of law. There's every

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Speaker 5: chance that he could end up in the High Court,

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Speaker 5: and then no matter what happens in the High Court,

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Speaker 5: we could end up at a trial. We could easily

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Speaker 5: be looking at another one or two years before this

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Speaker 5: is resolved.

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Speaker 1: You've been representing my league interests for years, JP. I

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Speaker 1: hope that whatever happens, you are still in my corner.

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Speaker 5: Yes, it's always a pleasure looking forward to it.

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Speaker 1: One of the tallest and newest buildings in the city

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Speaker 1: of Brisbane is known as the Tower of Power, and

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Speaker 1: that's because it's where Queensland's leading politicians and public servants

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Speaker 1: go to work. For these update episodes of Shandy's legacy,

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Speaker 1: my colleague Karina Berger and I rode the lift to

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Speaker 1: the ministerial office of the state's Attorney General and Minister

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Speaker 1: for Justice and Minister for Integrity Deb Frecklington. She was

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Speaker 1: sworn into those roles after the Liberal National Party swept

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Speaker 1: to power in Queensland in November twenty twenty four. Her

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Speaker 1: portfolio responsibilities are many and varied, but essentially they revolve

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Speaker 1: around justice and one of her key deliverables is to

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Speaker 1: ensure that Queensland's DNA forensic laboratory is of a high

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Speaker 1: standard and can be relied upon to bring justice for Queenslanders.

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Speaker 1: Delivering on recommendations from two Commissions of inquiry.

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Speaker 4: We should be good.

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Speaker 2: That's on.

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Speaker 1: We should not have any shortage of recording devices now one, two,

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Speaker 1: three right. Deb Frecklington is a refreshingly open and transparent

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Speaker 1: politician and she insists that she is taking her responsibility

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Speaker 1: to the lab very seriously.

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Speaker 8: This failure, the DNA failure, in my mind, is one

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Speaker 8: of the biggest failures of the justice system nationally, but

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Speaker 8: if not the world.

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Speaker 4: It's quite incredible.

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Speaker 1: Deb Frecklington was raised on a beef cattle property and

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Speaker 1: she grew up watching her father serve rural communities in

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Speaker 1: his role as a prominent local government figure. She went

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Speaker 1: to the one teacher Glugabar State School on the Downs.

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Speaker 1: It's only five hours by car, crossing some rugged country,

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Speaker 1: but it's a world away from the tower of power.

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Speaker 2: The married mother.

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Speaker 1: Of three daughters has experienced what she calls the highs

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Speaker 1: and lows of family farming with her husband Jason, the

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Speaker 1: heartbreak of droughts and storms, and the diversity and strength

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Speaker 1: that Deb Pricklington says is required to make the land

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Speaker 1: your home.

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Speaker 8: My office has a keen view over what is happening

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Speaker 8: at our lab.

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Speaker 4: I will not be.

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Speaker 8: An Attorney General who says I can't put press release out.

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Speaker 8: I've done a stand up, answered some questions and then

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Speaker 8: forget about it.

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Speaker 4: Wash my hands.

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Speaker 1: The Attorney General tells us that her commitment to victims

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Speaker 1: and to fixing.

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Speaker 2: The lab goes back a long way.

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Speaker 1: She is a self described early listener to the Shandy

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Speaker 1: Story podcast, and she recalls hearing doctor Kirsty in the

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Speaker 1: podcast in late twenty twenty one exposing the failures that

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Speaker 1: the forensic biologist was then uncovering in the forensic testing

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Speaker 1: of Shandy's samples. I'd like to just briefly revisit twenty

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Speaker 1: twenty one. You were in opposition and we were talking

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Speaker 1: back then about what was coming out of those early

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Speaker 1: podcast episodes for Shandy story.

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Speaker 2: Kirsty Right was doing a lot of heavy.

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Speaker 1: Lifting and you and other opposition members were becoming alarmed

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Speaker 1: the government wasn't responding back then. What do you recall

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Speaker 1: of your concerns from that time and what needed to

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Speaker 1: be done back then.

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Speaker 8: I'll remember the episode and exactly where I was when

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Speaker 8: I first heard doctor Kirsty Wright speaking. If I was

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Speaker 8: heading out to Brenda, I had to buy a sink,

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Speaker 8: and for some reason, that's where the sink was, and

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Speaker 8: I can remember her saying that she was this forensic

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Speaker 8: scientist who had issues and concerns around the DNA and

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Speaker 8: it was alarming and it was shocking. I can remember

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Speaker 8: thinking how brave she is, because if it wasn't right,

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Speaker 8: she's about to throw away her a whole career. When

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Speaker 8: you remember where you are when you hear something significant,

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Speaker 8: it shows the importance of what you've just heard.

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Speaker 2: At that time.

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Speaker 1: Late twenty twenty one, Deb Frecklington was not in the government.

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Speaker 1: She was an opposition member and her portfolio responsibilities were

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Speaker 1: water and the construction of dams. But she's a former

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Speaker 1: lawyer and she and others in opposition got it. They

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Speaker 1: were very alarmed by Kirsty Wright's disclosures and they began

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Speaker 1: asking questions in State Parliament and putting pressure on the

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Speaker 1: then Labor government to act. Here is David Christofoley back then.

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Speaker 1: He is now the Premier of Queensland.

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Speaker 9: I call the Leader of the Opposition speaker a question

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Speaker 9: to the Premier.

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Speaker 10: I refer to the overwhelming evidence from leading forensic experts

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Speaker 10: about to die consequences of the mismanagement of evidence or

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Speaker 10: the state forensic lab. If the government is serious about

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Speaker 10: protecting women and holding predators to account, when will it

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Speaker 10: launch an independent investigation into these systematic failures which are

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Speaker 10: allowing rapists and murderers to walk free.

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Speaker 11: I call them.

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Speaker 8: Infinite that thank you, mister Speaker. A question to the

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Speaker 8: Health Minister. Experienced forensic biologist, Doctor Kirsty Wright has found

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Speaker 8: in over half of all cases the government forensic lab

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Speaker 8: has failed to get complete DNA profile even when swabs

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Speaker 8: are directly taken from the male sexual offender or murderer.

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Speaker 8: Will the Minister intervene and ensure offenders are held to

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Speaker 8: account and victims get the justice they deserve.

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Speaker 1: During her interview with me in late twenty twenty five,

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Speaker 1: they're reflected on that time what.

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Speaker 8: We would do doing was simply asking questions of the

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Speaker 8: then government, is there an issue and what are you

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Speaker 8: doing about it? And have you looked into the allegations

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Speaker 8: from doctor Kirsty Right.

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Speaker 4: It was a terrible time.

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Speaker 8: We had a failure of a government agency and your podcast.

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Speaker 8: We had doctor Kirsty Right blowing the whistle and no

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Speaker 8: one was listening.

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Speaker 4: In a position of power, it should not.

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Speaker 8: Have taken the political pressure, the external pressure to drag

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Speaker 8: the government kicking and scraming for that first commission of inquiry.

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Speaker 4: That should not have happened.

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Speaker 2: For too long.

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Speaker 1: Through late twenty twenty one and into twenty twenty two,

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Speaker 1: the then Premier, Anastasia Palache and her Minister for Health

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Speaker 1: a vet Dath, tried to avoid an independent public inquiry.

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Speaker 1: To be fair, the politicians were also being misled by

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Speaker 1: senior bureaucrats who tried to hose down the revelations from

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Speaker 1: our podcast. They clearly didn't want scrutiny of the laboratory.

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Speaker 1: When I Gate crash the official opening of a cruise

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Speaker 1: ship terminal with my friend and colleague reporter Lydia Lynch

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Speaker 1: in late July twenty twenty two, we challenged the Premier

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Speaker 1: to act in front of her invited VIP guests and

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Speaker 1: other media. Up to that stage, the government was still

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Speaker 1: holding the line, preferring to have a secret internal review

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Speaker 1: and rejecting the very sensible calls by Kirsty and Vicki

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Speaker 1: Blackburn and others for a serious inquiry with strong powers

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Speaker 1: to get to the bottom of what had been going

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Speaker 1: wrong in the DNA lab.

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Speaker 12: Premier. The police have admitted they can no longer trust

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Speaker 12: the crucial results from rape cases that are coming out

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Speaker 12: of the state run forensics lab. We hold a public

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Speaker 12: inquiry to review these findings.

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Speaker 1: Premier, Why are Queensland are still suffering a third rate

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Speaker 1: criminal justice system when you've got a DNA lab with

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Speaker 1: problems mounting week after week and all you're doing is

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Speaker 1: announcing a review, a desktop review that won't look at

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Speaker 1: specific examples. You haven't even announced the reviewer seven months

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Speaker 1: after these problems were first raised.

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Speaker 13: Ah, well, that's exactly not correct. The Health Minister's taking

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Speaker 13: these issues very seriously.

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Speaker 3: She has, of course raised.

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Speaker 13: Them with her cabinet colleagues.

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Speaker 1: But in the meantime you have these cases, rape cases,

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Speaker 1: cases involving murder victims. The DNA or samples are going

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Speaker 1: to the lab and the lab can't find it can't

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Speaker 1: detect DNA. And now the police have affirmed that in

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Speaker 1: their own review. So you still support the lab. You

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Speaker 1: say the lab should just continue testing.

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Speaker 13: I want to get the results of that review first,

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Speaker 13: and like I said, if that review recommends a further inquiry,

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Speaker 13: of course we.

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Speaker 4: Will do that premiere.

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Speaker 12: Hundreds of women are going through the trauma of having

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Speaker 12: a forensic medical examination. Some of them are sitting in

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Speaker 12: emergency departments waiting twelve hours in the clothes they were

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Speaker 12: raped in. They're putting their trust in the lad that

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Speaker 12: they're going to be testing these results and they're not.

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Speaker 12: Why aren't we having a public inquiry now?

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Speaker 13: I have said to you, we are taking these matters

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Speaker 13: extremely seriously.

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Speaker 1: A very short time later that afternoon, Anastasia Palichet wanted

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Speaker 1: Walter Sofronoff, the newly retired Court of Appeal judge, to

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Speaker 1: step up and run a commission of inquiry, with highly

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Speaker 1: trained lawyers helping him question scientists and other witnesses with

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Speaker 1: public hearings to air all of it. And as many

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Speaker 1: of you know, the findings of that inquiry in late

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Speaker 1: twenty twenty two were truly damning.

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Speaker 4: My social media guy is doing a day in the

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Speaker 4: life today.

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Speaker 1: When we met in her office in the Tower of Power,

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Speaker 1: deb Frecklington had just returned from opening a new courthouse

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Speaker 1: in the near Brisbane town of bo Desert. Soon she

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Speaker 1: would be racing off to Parliament, but we were still able.

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Speaker 2: To cover a lot of ground.

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Speaker 1: You've heard some parts of the interview already in earlier episodes.

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Speaker 1: Now we are going to focus on things that we

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Speaker 1: discussed with Debt that haven't been thoroughly explored before.

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Speaker 8: We knew from opposition with very limited information about what

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Speaker 8: was happening or what wasn't happening. Now we knew there

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Speaker 8: were massive delays. We knew there were victims without justice.

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Speaker 8: We knew the court system was being delayed because of

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Speaker 8: the failures out there. We've had the two reviews handed

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Speaker 8: down now and there's some stark findings, particularly around the

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Speaker 8: culture and quite frankly systemic failures and catastrophic failures, and

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Speaker 8: that's borne.

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Speaker 4: Through those reviews.

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Speaker 8: Thankfully, we have a very good working relationship with the reviewers.

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Speaker 4: We were listening. I took the action.

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Speaker 8: We spoke to the reviewers about the idea of outsourcing

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Speaker 8: and outsourcing properly. We have secured a fifty million dollar

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Speaker 8: outsourcing program. Now, the former government misled the Queenside people.

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Speaker 8: They said that they were going to outsource and clear

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Speaker 8: the backlogs. They ended up spending money on a demountable

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Speaker 8: for office buildings, rather than thinking about victims of crime

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Speaker 8: waiting for an outcome in the courts.

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Speaker 1: Most people would be wondering how we end up here

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Speaker 1: two years after these issues are being investigated by a

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Speaker 1: Commission of Inquiry, with a reform package and budget to

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Speaker 1: make it work. Why are we still talking about catastrophic failure,

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Speaker 1: extraordinary waiting times, contamination.

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Speaker 2: The list goes on.

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Speaker 8: What I think it was had Lee's You had a

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Speaker 8: former government who refused to listen. They refuse to think,

443
00:26:54,720 --> 00:26:57,280
Speaker 8: why is the court system being delayed? Why have we

444
00:26:57,320 --> 00:27:00,560
Speaker 8: got rape victims waiting over four hundred days their tests

445
00:27:00,600 --> 00:27:03,880
Speaker 8: to come back. They failed to ask the questions. They

446
00:27:03,960 --> 00:27:07,200
Speaker 8: failed to listen to experts who were coming to them

447
00:27:07,680 --> 00:27:11,040
Speaker 8: with information on a clutter, and it is not going

448
00:27:11,080 --> 00:27:13,720
Speaker 8: to be easy to fix this broken system. We know that,

449
00:27:14,320 --> 00:27:16,800
Speaker 8: and we are not making promises that we can't keep.

450
00:27:16,840 --> 00:27:18,679
Speaker 8: But what we have to do is we've got to

451
00:27:18,720 --> 00:27:22,160
Speaker 8: listen to those victims, listen to the survivors who have

452
00:27:22,240 --> 00:27:26,040
Speaker 8: been through this debacle, and we owe them a system

453
00:27:26,080 --> 00:27:28,399
Speaker 8: that works. We have put a lot of changes in

454
00:27:28,440 --> 00:27:32,959
Speaker 8: place already. We've changed the legislation to enable former New

455
00:27:33,000 --> 00:27:36,439
Speaker 8: southal As Police Commissioner AO Mick Fuller to get in

456
00:27:36,480 --> 00:27:39,760
Speaker 8: there and look at the cultural of an organization, someone

457
00:27:39,800 --> 00:27:42,280
Speaker 8: that has been at the pointy end of a justice

458
00:27:42,320 --> 00:27:46,280
Speaker 8: system and understands that if you can bring these smart,

459
00:27:46,320 --> 00:27:49,440
Speaker 8: amazing people that work at Forensic Science Coinciance along with.

460
00:27:49,480 --> 00:27:51,800
Speaker 4: Them, they won't be set up for failure.

461
00:27:52,119 --> 00:27:56,040
Speaker 8: I've changed legislation to ensure the DNA samples don't get distraught.

462
00:27:56,720 --> 00:27:58,000
Speaker 4: It is a big stick approach.

463
00:27:58,119 --> 00:28:01,480
Speaker 8: We've had a change of director and it is important

464
00:28:01,520 --> 00:28:03,400
Speaker 8: that we get that governance structure right.

465
00:28:04,040 --> 00:28:08,199
Speaker 1: How do you come to a decision though, for a

466
00:28:08,280 --> 00:28:11,560
Speaker 1: non scientist to lead this lab of scientists, that's pretty

467
00:28:11,560 --> 00:28:12,200
Speaker 1: out there.

468
00:28:12,080 --> 00:28:12,720
Speaker 2: Isn't it?

469
00:28:12,720 --> 00:28:15,160
Speaker 4: It is out there, but I don't think it's unprecedented.

470
00:28:15,760 --> 00:28:18,000
Speaker 14: I'm interested to talk a bit about the science and

471
00:28:18,040 --> 00:28:21,000
Speaker 14: the failures in science that have occurred. And I'm really

472
00:28:21,040 --> 00:28:24,480
Speaker 14: conscious that the new director is not a scientist himself,

473
00:28:25,080 --> 00:28:29,560
Speaker 14: so I'm wondering how he will have sufficient scientific advice

474
00:28:29,600 --> 00:28:32,160
Speaker 14: and expertise to assist him perform his critical role.

475
00:28:32,600 --> 00:28:37,119
Speaker 8: We're very fortunate to have the expertise of both reviewers,

476
00:28:37,119 --> 00:28:41,960
Speaker 8: doctor Bruce Badally and doctor Kirsty Wright. Both those scientists

477
00:28:42,080 --> 00:28:46,320
Speaker 8: who have since handing down their review been working with

478
00:28:46,720 --> 00:28:51,040
Speaker 8: Mick Fuller in an advisory capacity and that will continue.

479
00:28:51,160 --> 00:28:53,720
Speaker 8: But also you have to remember we will have the

480
00:28:53,760 --> 00:28:57,280
Speaker 8: science leads as well and the expertise of the scientists.

481
00:28:58,080 --> 00:29:00,560
Speaker 8: We must get the science right. At the end of

482
00:29:00,560 --> 00:29:00,960
Speaker 8: the day.

483
00:29:01,320 --> 00:29:04,800
Speaker 4: We can have the best, most world class.

484
00:29:04,480 --> 00:29:08,520
Speaker 8: Scientists ever in that lab, but if things are going wrong,

485
00:29:08,720 --> 00:29:11,920
Speaker 8: it's for nothing. We're trying and doing everything we can

486
00:29:11,960 --> 00:29:15,400
Speaker 8: to break down the barriers between the scientists and the police,

487
00:29:15,840 --> 00:29:19,040
Speaker 8: the scientists at our lab, and the justice system and

488
00:29:19,080 --> 00:29:22,640
Speaker 8: making sure that they all can work together. But ultimately

489
00:29:22,880 --> 00:29:26,680
Speaker 8: we have a lab that has a culture problem and

490
00:29:26,880 --> 00:29:30,959
Speaker 8: we need fresh eyes. I have all the confidence that

491
00:29:31,080 --> 00:29:33,680
Speaker 8: Nick Fuller is the right person for the job. He

492
00:29:33,840 --> 00:29:37,920
Speaker 8: is open to listening to all of the expertise when

493
00:29:37,920 --> 00:29:40,680
Speaker 8: it comes to the science. But the good thing is

494
00:29:40,720 --> 00:29:43,520
Speaker 8: also about Mick. He's been at the cold face. He

495
00:29:43,720 --> 00:29:48,720
Speaker 8: knows the importance of the DNA evidence. He's followed the

496
00:29:48,800 --> 00:29:52,200
Speaker 8: debacle up here in Queensland. I've got all the confidence

497
00:29:52,360 --> 00:29:55,080
Speaker 8: that he will do very well in that director's role.

498
00:29:55,640 --> 00:29:57,800
Speaker 15: Do you think that it's enough that there's a new

499
00:29:57,840 --> 00:30:02,239
Speaker 15: director in the labor Further inquiries needed in relation to

500
00:30:02,360 --> 00:30:05,080
Speaker 15: other staff within the lab who've been there over the

501
00:30:05,120 --> 00:30:09,000
Speaker 15: past few years while these catastrophic failures have been unfolding.

502
00:30:09,440 --> 00:30:11,840
Speaker 8: I don't believe the people of Coinsland want to hear

503
00:30:11,880 --> 00:30:12,880
Speaker 8: about another review.

504
00:30:13,120 --> 00:30:15,160
Speaker 4: I think that they just want it fixed.

505
00:30:15,720 --> 00:30:19,720
Speaker 8: So we've got the soft Roennough Inquiry recommendations. We've got

506
00:30:19,960 --> 00:30:23,400
Speaker 8: the two reviews that have the recommendations as well. I

507
00:30:23,520 --> 00:30:27,440
Speaker 8: have been reassured by Mick Fuller that if any retesting

508
00:30:27,520 --> 00:30:30,640
Speaker 8: needs to happen out of failures from the former Commissions

509
00:30:30,680 --> 00:30:34,920
Speaker 8: of Inquiry, they will be retested. We are doing this calmly,

510
00:30:35,000 --> 00:30:37,320
Speaker 8: methodically to ensure that we get it right.

511
00:30:37,960 --> 00:30:38,400
Speaker 2: How do you.

512
00:30:38,360 --> 00:30:43,000
Speaker 1: Balance the need to have timely justice with the need

513
00:30:43,080 --> 00:30:44,840
Speaker 1: to have quality results.

514
00:30:45,440 --> 00:30:48,520
Speaker 8: It's a fine balance, but the principle that I stand

515
00:30:48,560 --> 00:30:51,880
Speaker 8: by is victims must come first. We're not going to

516
00:30:51,920 --> 00:30:56,040
Speaker 8: cut corners and create a problem where victims are left

517
00:30:56,120 --> 00:31:00,640
Speaker 8: languishing once again. And ultimately, we don't want a victim

518
00:31:00,720 --> 00:31:02,960
Speaker 8: to wait a day or a minute longer than they

519
00:31:03,000 --> 00:31:07,680
Speaker 8: have to. But I also don't want that poor victim

520
00:31:07,760 --> 00:31:10,120
Speaker 8: to be hauled through the system again because we've got

521
00:31:10,120 --> 00:31:13,360
Speaker 8: it roll because we rushed. We just can't do that.

522
00:31:13,360 --> 00:31:16,120
Speaker 8: That's the type of question that does keep me up

523
00:31:16,160 --> 00:31:16,520
Speaker 8: at night.

524
00:31:17,680 --> 00:31:20,920
Speaker 1: We spoke to Deb Frecklington about how long it has

525
00:31:21,000 --> 00:31:26,959
Speaker 1: taken for expert retesting of samples from Shandy's case, What

526
00:31:27,000 --> 00:31:29,480
Speaker 1: does the program look like, and do you know specifically

527
00:31:29,480 --> 00:31:30,760
Speaker 1: what's happening in relation.

528
00:31:30,480 --> 00:31:31,400
Speaker 2: To Shandy's case.

529
00:31:31,640 --> 00:31:38,200
Speaker 1: Now others whose historical cases are caught up in this, and.

530
00:31:38,160 --> 00:31:42,160
Speaker 8: It's horrific that they're still waiting. Everything is being done

531
00:31:42,480 --> 00:31:46,880
Speaker 8: as quickly as humanly possible, in a safe and scientific

532
00:31:46,960 --> 00:31:49,240
Speaker 8: manner to ensure we get through that backlog.

533
00:31:49,840 --> 00:31:51,720
Speaker 1: Is there any risk that they will be shelved because

534
00:31:51,720 --> 00:31:53,000
Speaker 1: they're historically.

535
00:31:52,600 --> 00:31:53,960
Speaker 4: No, not at all.

536
00:31:54,520 --> 00:31:58,120
Speaker 8: In actual fact, my last conversation with Mick Fuller was

537
00:31:58,320 --> 00:32:01,960
Speaker 8: exactly about that issue, where he reassured me that any

538
00:32:02,080 --> 00:32:04,160
Speaker 8: matters or any cases that have been caught up in

539
00:32:04,160 --> 00:32:07,960
Speaker 8: Project thirteen would be retested if they are required to

540
00:32:07,960 --> 00:32:10,360
Speaker 8: be retested, So absolutely not.

541
00:32:10,880 --> 00:32:32,520
Speaker 16: We've got to continue to work with those victims.

542
00:32:35,160 --> 00:32:38,400
Speaker 1: Although she did not know it at the time, Kirsty's

543
00:32:38,480 --> 00:32:41,920
Speaker 1: journey started in mid twenty twenty one with a mackay

544
00:32:42,080 --> 00:32:45,800
Speaker 1: man called Grevin Bredsal, the founder of a boxing and

545
00:32:45,880 --> 00:32:49,640
Speaker 1: physical fitness club in the Sugartown. When he was telling

546
00:32:49,680 --> 00:32:52,480
Speaker 1: me his view of evidence in the murder trial of

547
00:32:52,560 --> 00:32:57,360
Speaker 1: Shandy Blackburn's former boyfriend John Perros four years earlier.

548
00:33:00,120 --> 00:33:03,680
Speaker 17: Solicitor said, I went and found out that the DNA

549
00:33:03,800 --> 00:33:09,120
Speaker 17: all over Sandy Blackburn's body was aboriginal DNA.

550
00:33:09,720 --> 00:33:15,400
Speaker 18: And so if Shandy Blackburn's body had an aboriginal lads DNA,

551
00:33:17,560 --> 00:33:20,360
Speaker 18: did you take from that that possibly they had the

552
00:33:20,360 --> 00:33:20,880
Speaker 18: wrong bloke.

553
00:33:21,880 --> 00:33:26,560
Speaker 17: Yeah, I think anybody would have because DNA riggie did

554
00:33:26,680 --> 00:33:29,239
Speaker 17: join a found all the ancestry, and that mistood your

555
00:33:29,280 --> 00:33:32,040
Speaker 17: hundred sand you can't get wrong, and you wouldn't get

556
00:33:32,040 --> 00:33:34,680
Speaker 17: a Greek DNA mixed up with the original DNA like

557
00:33:34,760 --> 00:33:36,320
Speaker 17: here and two entirely different things.

558
00:33:36,360 --> 00:33:38,360
Speaker 8: As far as I know that was.

559
00:33:38,320 --> 00:33:40,720
Speaker 18: A powerful piece of evidence for you when you read it.

560
00:33:41,520 --> 00:33:42,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, I thought so.

561
00:33:45,240 --> 00:33:50,959
Speaker 1: John Perros did not have aboriginal relations. His ancestors hailed

562
00:33:51,000 --> 00:33:56,400
Speaker 1: from Greece. John's criminal defense lawyer, Craig Eberhart, wanted the

563
00:33:56,520 --> 00:33:59,960
Speaker 1: jury in Mackay to believe that a local black criminal

564
00:34:00,200 --> 00:34:04,640
Speaker 1: called William Daniel was the killer. According to John's lawyer,

565
00:34:04,880 --> 00:34:09,560
Speaker 1: there was a forensic link tying the aboriginal William Daniel

566
00:34:09,719 --> 00:34:14,880
Speaker 1: to the so called forensic evidence on Shandy's clothing. In

567
00:34:14,960 --> 00:34:19,440
Speaker 1: this way, William Daniel was accused of Shandy's murder, although

568
00:34:19,480 --> 00:34:23,040
Speaker 1: he was not on trial and police had previously ruled

569
00:34:23,120 --> 00:34:28,880
Speaker 1: him out after exhaustive investigations. Transcripts from the murder trial

570
00:34:29,080 --> 00:34:33,840
Speaker 1: set out the defense lawyer's excoriating questioning of William Daniel.

571
00:34:34,760 --> 00:34:37,520
Speaker 1: Here's a reminder of some of it, with voice actors

572
00:34:37,560 --> 00:34:38,520
Speaker 1: playing the parts.

573
00:34:40,320 --> 00:34:43,360
Speaker 19: Are you on ice at the moment? No, You wanted

574
00:34:43,400 --> 00:34:45,840
Speaker 19: to know whether any DNA that was matching yours was

575
00:34:45,880 --> 00:34:47,080
Speaker 19: found at the scene, didn't you?

576
00:34:47,640 --> 00:34:47,839
Speaker 17: Nah?

577
00:34:47,920 --> 00:34:51,759
Speaker 19: Mat you see, according to you, you're totally innocent of

578
00:34:51,800 --> 00:34:52,600
Speaker 19: this crime, aren't you?

579
00:34:53,480 --> 00:34:53,960
Speaker 7: Fucking I?

580
00:34:54,520 --> 00:34:57,120
Speaker 19: Why then would you be asking the police who was

581
00:34:57,160 --> 00:34:58,680
Speaker 19: speaking to you about the murder.

582
00:34:58,960 --> 00:35:00,120
Speaker 9: Whether they've got any.

583
00:35:01,480 --> 00:35:03,759
Speaker 4: Well, I'm pretty sure everyone was fucking curious.

584
00:35:04,600 --> 00:35:07,760
Speaker 19: You said to Levi Blackman that you had murdered Shandy Blackburn,

585
00:35:07,880 --> 00:35:08,680
Speaker 19: didn't you know?

586
00:35:09,600 --> 00:35:10,480
Speaker 2: It's bullshit?

587
00:35:10,640 --> 00:35:16,000
Speaker 1: Mate? As we would later discover from doctor Kirsty Wright's

588
00:35:16,040 --> 00:35:22,080
Speaker 1: investigations and evidence at Walter Soffronoff's public inquiry, William Daniel

589
00:35:22,320 --> 00:35:26,920
Speaker 1: was right. There was no such forensic link to William Daniel.

590
00:35:27,560 --> 00:35:31,439
Speaker 1: The lab got it wrong. But in twenty seventeen, when

591
00:35:31,520 --> 00:35:34,360
Speaker 1: those claims of a link were first made at the

592
00:35:34,400 --> 00:35:39,239
Speaker 1: Supreme Court murder trial, Grevin Bradzel and perhaps some of

593
00:35:39,280 --> 00:35:42,960
Speaker 1: the jurors in that trial questioned why John Perros had

594
00:35:43,000 --> 00:35:47,800
Speaker 1: even been charged with murder because of the defense lawyer's

595
00:35:47,880 --> 00:35:53,520
Speaker 1: claims about purported forensic links and evidence. Grehn reckoned that

596
00:35:53,640 --> 00:35:57,640
Speaker 1: William Daniel must have killed Chandy, and the jury took

597
00:35:57,719 --> 00:36:00,640
Speaker 1: just a couple of hours to find John Perry not

598
00:36:00,760 --> 00:36:04,840
Speaker 1: guilty in twenty seventeen. But it was Grevin bred Cell's

599
00:36:04,880 --> 00:36:08,440
Speaker 1: comment to me which made me realize that I needed

600
00:36:08,480 --> 00:36:12,480
Speaker 1: to find an expert in DNA in Brisbane where I live,

601
00:36:12,680 --> 00:36:15,240
Speaker 1: to help me try to make sense of those claims

602
00:36:15,280 --> 00:36:19,520
Speaker 1: about aboriginal DNA and the claims of a forensic link

603
00:36:19,560 --> 00:36:24,279
Speaker 1: between William Daniel and Shandy Blackburn. You and I met

604
00:36:24,320 --> 00:36:31,400
Speaker 1: because of one case being the very brutal murder of Shandy,

605
00:36:32,200 --> 00:36:36,960
Speaker 1: and I know you've stayed on that case. Kirsty's journey

606
00:36:37,040 --> 00:36:40,359
Speaker 1: in Shandy Story started in the most random way.

607
00:36:41,440 --> 00:36:43,920
Speaker 2: It's been with the Kairner for several years.

608
00:36:43,960 --> 00:36:47,080
Speaker 1: Of course, he reopened the inquest as a result of

609
00:36:47,120 --> 00:36:51,640
Speaker 1: what we were revealing in Shandy Story. Did any part

610
00:36:51,640 --> 00:36:55,080
Speaker 1: of your review talking about Shandy's case?

611
00:36:55,840 --> 00:37:01,080
Speaker 20: I looked at samples affected by Project thirteen, and I

612
00:37:01,120 --> 00:37:03,920
Speaker 20: looked into two aspects of that.

613
00:37:04,960 --> 00:37:08,640
Speaker 1: As doctor Kirsty Wright mentioned in our interview, the testing

614
00:37:08,800 --> 00:37:13,600
Speaker 1: of Shandy's crime scene samples was profoundly affected by the

615
00:37:13,920 --> 00:37:20,080
Speaker 1: deeply flawed Project thirteen method That was the automated DNA

616
00:37:20,239 --> 00:37:25,759
Speaker 1: extraction the robots that were failing yet knowingly used by

617
00:37:25,800 --> 00:37:29,880
Speaker 1: the lab between two thousand and seven and twenty sixteen

618
00:37:30,239 --> 00:37:35,280
Speaker 1: to process more than one hundred thousand crime scene samples,

619
00:37:35,800 --> 00:37:41,080
Speaker 1: despite those robots having terribly low success rates in recovering

620
00:37:41,400 --> 00:37:47,080
Speaker 1: viable DNA. The method was examined in the Project thirteen

621
00:37:47,120 --> 00:37:51,520
Speaker 1: Commission of Inquiry by the former Federal Court judge Annabelle Bennett.

622
00:37:52,440 --> 00:37:55,919
Speaker 1: At the end of her inquiry in late twenty twenty three,

623
00:37:56,120 --> 00:38:01,919
Speaker 1: she recommended that all Project thirteen samples be re extracted

624
00:38:02,200 --> 00:38:09,080
Speaker 1: and retested wherever possible, using a proper validated retesting process.

625
00:38:10,400 --> 00:38:12,160
Speaker 2: Now, let's bast forward.

626
00:38:12,719 --> 00:38:16,680
Speaker 1: Those Project thirteen affected samples are part of what the

627
00:38:16,800 --> 00:38:24,000
Speaker 1: lab calls the historical case review, Kirsty, Historical cases are

628
00:38:24,040 --> 00:38:28,880
Speaker 1: a really significant part of the backlog of cases that

629
00:38:28,960 --> 00:38:35,280
Speaker 1: were identified as having been effectively mismanaged for many, many years.

630
00:38:35,280 --> 00:38:38,520
Speaker 1: And these are cases that go back to late two

631
00:38:38,600 --> 00:38:44,360
Speaker 1: thousand and seven, fell between the cracks, but could still

632
00:38:44,480 --> 00:38:50,720
Speaker 1: yield DNA which could incriminate an offender and get very

633
00:38:50,840 --> 00:38:53,839
Speaker 1: dangerous individuals off the streets.

634
00:38:53,400 --> 00:38:54,520
Speaker 2: And behind bars.

635
00:38:55,280 --> 00:38:59,840
Speaker 1: The great hope of the community, of ourselves, of victims

636
00:38:59,880 --> 00:39:04,799
Speaker 1: of crime and survivors was that these cases would be

637
00:39:04,840 --> 00:39:10,360
Speaker 1: for the first time properly fully tested and then arrests made.

638
00:39:11,120 --> 00:39:14,880
Speaker 1: What do we know as a result of your review

639
00:39:14,960 --> 00:39:21,880
Speaker 1: and your research into the lab's performance about the testing

640
00:39:21,960 --> 00:39:25,720
Speaker 1: of those cases or the lack of testing of those cases.

641
00:39:26,280 --> 00:39:31,840
Speaker 20: So there's thirty two thousand cases approximately, and the police

642
00:39:32,160 --> 00:39:35,440
Speaker 20: and the Department of Public prosecutions have been really busy

643
00:39:35,800 --> 00:39:39,640
Speaker 20: looking at these cases to see which ones could be

644
00:39:39,760 --> 00:39:43,640
Speaker 20: progressed if further DNA testing could be conducted.

645
00:39:44,800 --> 00:39:48,879
Speaker 1: This is because retesting will only happen with samples from

646
00:39:48,960 --> 00:39:53,480
Speaker 1: cases in which different DNA results could affect the outcome

647
00:39:53,719 --> 00:39:58,000
Speaker 1: of a police investigation or court case. We believe that

648
00:39:58,160 --> 00:40:02,600
Speaker 1: Chandy's case falls into this category, and.

649
00:40:02,560 --> 00:40:07,600
Speaker 20: They've identified two thousand, three hundred and eighty cases which

650
00:40:07,680 --> 00:40:10,520
Speaker 20: they've referred to the lab.

651
00:40:10,640 --> 00:40:14,920
Speaker 1: That have been selected from the more than thirty thousand

652
00:40:15,000 --> 00:40:19,640
Speaker 1: cases over the sixteen years between two thousand and seven

653
00:40:19,640 --> 00:40:22,120
Speaker 1: and two thousand and twenty three.

654
00:40:22,520 --> 00:40:26,200
Speaker 20: That's correct, and surprisingly Headley over the last two and

655
00:40:26,239 --> 00:40:30,359
Speaker 20: a half years, the lab hasn't tested any of those

656
00:40:30,440 --> 00:40:35,920
Speaker 20: cases whatsoever. And because they're considered older cases, they're not

657
00:40:36,000 --> 00:40:39,880
Speaker 20: going through the courts, they're essentially not being tested.

658
00:40:40,680 --> 00:40:44,640
Speaker 1: Is this the basket of evidence that you would make

659
00:40:44,680 --> 00:40:46,319
Speaker 1: a b line for to.

660
00:40:46,320 --> 00:40:49,200
Speaker 2: Try to resolve unsolved crimes?

661
00:40:49,400 --> 00:40:49,560
Speaker 17: Oh?

662
00:40:49,600 --> 00:40:52,720
Speaker 20: With that question, the police would love to have these

663
00:40:52,800 --> 00:40:57,120
Speaker 20: cases tested and resolved without any question whatsoever.

664
00:40:57,000 --> 00:41:00,000
Speaker 1: Because they do involve some of the most serious crimes,

665
00:41:00,200 --> 00:41:01,879
Speaker 1: the most serious from murder down.

666
00:41:02,360 --> 00:41:07,040
Speaker 20: If a DNA profile was obtained potentially charges could be laid,

667
00:41:07,600 --> 00:41:12,520
Speaker 20: suspects identified, and people could be able to progress through

668
00:41:12,600 --> 00:41:14,600
Speaker 20: the criminal justice system.

669
00:41:15,560 --> 00:41:20,920
Speaker 1: Why when they involve murders, aren't they Priority one or

670
00:41:21,239 --> 00:41:27,680
Speaker 1: major crime cases that thereby demand urgent priority testing.

671
00:41:28,120 --> 00:41:32,160
Speaker 20: That's exactly right, But the LAB is trying to keep

672
00:41:32,280 --> 00:41:35,160
Speaker 20: up with what we call business as usual, so cases

673
00:41:35,200 --> 00:41:37,600
Speaker 20: that are just coming through the front door, cases and

674
00:41:37,680 --> 00:41:39,719
Speaker 20: crimes that have only just been committed.

675
00:41:40,920 --> 00:41:45,240
Speaker 1: Kirsty explained that the number of historical cases being referred

676
00:41:45,280 --> 00:41:48,800
Speaker 1: to the LAB will increase as the review by police

677
00:41:48,840 --> 00:41:55,120
Speaker 1: and prosecutors continues. Kirsty's investigations revealed that by mid twenty

678
00:41:55,200 --> 00:41:59,600
Speaker 1: twenty five, the LAB had only retested historical cases that

679
00:41:59,719 --> 00:42:03,680
Speaker 1: were before the courts. That was partly because of lab

680
00:42:03,800 --> 00:42:10,680
Speaker 1: capacity issues. The limited retesting has had some very successful outcomes, though,

681
00:42:11,200 --> 00:42:16,560
Speaker 1: with DNA profiles being obtained from samples for the first time.

682
00:42:17,800 --> 00:42:22,920
Speaker 1: Kirsty gave some examples in her report. In one case,

683
00:42:23,160 --> 00:42:28,080
Speaker 1: a DNA profile consistent with the alleged victim was obtained

684
00:42:28,080 --> 00:42:32,439
Speaker 1: from the genitals of a defendant the original testing had

685
00:42:32,600 --> 00:42:37,080
Speaker 1: failed to obtain the alleged victim's profile, and in the

686
00:42:37,120 --> 00:42:42,040
Speaker 1: same case, a DNA profile was not originally obtained from

687
00:42:42,160 --> 00:42:46,279
Speaker 1: a metal blade allegedly used in the offense. When it

688
00:42:46,360 --> 00:42:51,880
Speaker 1: was retested, DNA profiles consistent with the defendant and the

689
00:42:51,920 --> 00:42:58,560
Speaker 1: complainant were obtained. Other examples related to DNA profiles being

690
00:42:58,800 --> 00:43:03,760
Speaker 1: extracted from the underpants of alleged victims when no DNA

691
00:43:03,960 --> 00:43:09,640
Speaker 1: profiles had been extracted in original testing. Mick Fuller also

692
00:43:09,760 --> 00:43:13,840
Speaker 1: spoke about the retesting of historical cases when I spoke

693
00:43:13,920 --> 00:43:14,920
Speaker 1: to him.

694
00:43:15,320 --> 00:43:19,440
Speaker 11: The historical case review team has already had a couple

695
00:43:19,440 --> 00:43:23,440
Speaker 11: of hits on historic matters where the threshold testing meant

696
00:43:23,480 --> 00:43:26,839
Speaker 11: that a person wasn't identified for the offense, and now,

697
00:43:26,880 --> 00:43:30,480
Speaker 11: of course Queensland Police will get that information and reopen

698
00:43:30,520 --> 00:43:33,520
Speaker 11: the investigations. And these could have been people that have

699
00:43:33,560 --> 00:43:35,560
Speaker 11: been reoffending for ten fifteen years.

700
00:43:35,600 --> 00:43:37,279
Speaker 2: Headlee glabs around the.

701
00:43:37,200 --> 00:43:41,480
Speaker 11: World have cold case review because technology is better every year.

702
00:43:41,520 --> 00:43:45,840
Speaker 11: The amplification of DNA gets better, scientists better training. But

703
00:43:45,960 --> 00:43:49,720
Speaker 11: it turned out from universities, so that historical case review

704
00:43:49,800 --> 00:43:53,279
Speaker 11: in a sense will continue because tomorrow we will be

705
00:43:53,320 --> 00:43:55,640
Speaker 11: slightly better in terms of the science and the ability

706
00:43:55,680 --> 00:43:58,480
Speaker 11: to extract that. But there are already cases that we

707
00:43:58,560 --> 00:44:01,200
Speaker 11: are seeing that should have been old ten to fifteen

708
00:44:01,280 --> 00:44:04,759
Speaker 11: years ago, serious crimes which I can only apologize for

709
00:44:04,880 --> 00:44:07,759
Speaker 11: and say that that was part of the old and

710
00:44:07,880 --> 00:44:09,279
Speaker 11: is certainly not going to be part of the new.

711
00:44:10,560 --> 00:44:15,560
Speaker 1: But what about the retesting of Project thirteen affected samples,

712
00:44:15,920 --> 00:44:18,360
Speaker 1: including those from Shandy's case.

713
00:44:19,680 --> 00:44:24,720
Speaker 20: So far, none of those samples, those affected by Project

714
00:44:24,800 --> 00:44:28,600
Speaker 20: thirteen have been retested within the laboratory.

715
00:44:29,040 --> 00:44:35,040
Speaker 1: All of the cases and samples affected by the contaminated

716
00:44:35,480 --> 00:44:40,160
Speaker 1: and underperforming robots in Project thirteen are yet to be tested.

717
00:44:40,880 --> 00:44:44,360
Speaker 20: Yeah, that's direct. So this is part of this historical backlog.

718
00:44:44,960 --> 00:44:46,359
Speaker 20: What I've found.

719
00:44:46,040 --> 00:44:50,880
Speaker 8: Also is more issues relating to Project thirteen.

720
00:44:51,960 --> 00:44:55,560
Speaker 1: Some of the labs scientists told doctor Wright and her

721
00:44:55,640 --> 00:44:59,400
Speaker 1: team that the lab had not done any research to

722
00:44:59,520 --> 00:45:04,320
Speaker 1: understand and the best way to identify and retest those

723
00:45:04,480 --> 00:45:07,239
Speaker 1: samples affected by Project thirteen.

724
00:45:08,280 --> 00:45:13,160
Speaker 20: When I interviewed the lab, they had no intention whatsoever

725
00:45:13,440 --> 00:45:18,840
Speaker 20: of conducting any research to see how best those Project

726
00:45:18,840 --> 00:45:21,920
Speaker 20: thirteen samples could be retested. They were just going to

727
00:45:22,400 --> 00:45:26,600
Speaker 20: retest them with normal methods, which in my opinion, would

728
00:45:26,680 --> 00:45:28,720
Speaker 20: lead them most likely to fail.

729
00:45:30,000 --> 00:45:34,520
Speaker 1: Kirsty gave this dire warning in her most recent report.

730
00:45:35,600 --> 00:45:38,759
Speaker 21: The DNA Review considers that the lab's current plans to

731
00:45:38,800 --> 00:45:42,839
Speaker 21: review and retest samples affected by Project thirteen are not

732
00:45:43,120 --> 00:45:46,480
Speaker 21: scientifically reliable, and there is a very high risk it

733
00:45:46,480 --> 00:45:49,560
Speaker 21: will fail to detect or destroy evidence.

734
00:45:50,880 --> 00:45:55,120
Speaker 1: There is an urgent need for collaborative research to develop

735
00:45:55,160 --> 00:46:01,360
Speaker 1: a scientifically sound method. Otherwise, there's little point point that

736
00:46:01,640 --> 00:46:06,239
Speaker 1: research that Kirsty has recommended must consider how the Project

737
00:46:06,280 --> 00:46:11,920
Speaker 1: thirteen method affected the remaining cells and DNA and what

738
00:46:12,120 --> 00:46:15,080
Speaker 1: is the best way to retrieve them from the swabs

739
00:46:15,360 --> 00:46:19,040
Speaker 1: and the tapelifts that are stored at the lab. The

740
00:46:19,120 --> 00:46:23,560
Speaker 1: investigations by Kirsty and her team also discovered that taped

741
00:46:23,640 --> 00:46:29,400
Speaker 1: lifts taken from crime scene evidence and processed using the

742
00:46:29,400 --> 00:46:35,440
Speaker 1: Project thirteen method experienced another problem. The tubes that contain

743
00:46:35,600 --> 00:46:39,600
Speaker 1: the tapelifts were not filled with enough of the chemicals needed.

744
00:46:40,640 --> 00:46:44,880
Speaker 1: This meant that sixty to seventy percent of the cells

745
00:46:45,160 --> 00:46:48,920
Speaker 1: on the tapelifts stayed on the tape lift in the

746
00:46:49,040 --> 00:46:54,919
Speaker 1: DNA extraction process, the trace tapelifts would have been unlikely

747
00:46:55,120 --> 00:47:00,759
Speaker 1: to provide any DNA profiles. It's an all two familiar

748
00:47:01,000 --> 00:47:04,440
Speaker 1: debarcle and it reminded me of what we talked about

749
00:47:04,480 --> 00:47:08,400
Speaker 1: in an earlier episode of Shandy's story way back in

750
00:47:08,480 --> 00:47:12,640
Speaker 1: December twenty twenty one, where we were perplexed by this

751
00:47:12,920 --> 00:47:13,840
Speaker 1: very issue.

752
00:47:14,000 --> 00:47:15,720
Speaker 2: In Shandy's testing.

753
00:47:17,200 --> 00:47:20,799
Speaker 1: Of thirty two samples from the vehicle, only two came

754
00:47:20,920 --> 00:47:24,600
Speaker 1: back in lab results with the DNA profile of the

755
00:47:24,600 --> 00:47:28,880
Speaker 1: owner and driver, John Perros. One of those samples was

756
00:47:28,920 --> 00:47:31,800
Speaker 1: from a water bottle in the car. The other was

757
00:47:31,840 --> 00:47:35,560
Speaker 1: from a cigarette butt in the car. Those two items,

758
00:47:35,760 --> 00:47:39,760
Speaker 1: which were once in John's mouth and absorbing his saliva,

759
00:47:39,840 --> 00:47:42,680
Speaker 1: are very different to the surfaces of his vehicle, which

760
00:47:42,719 --> 00:47:48,120
Speaker 1: should have had traced DNA. Why wasn't John DNA found

761
00:47:48,160 --> 00:47:51,160
Speaker 1: in all or most of the samples taken from his

762
00:47:51,520 --> 00:47:56,799
Speaker 1: really dirty car. It's a vitally important question in Shandy's

763
00:47:56,840 --> 00:48:00,800
Speaker 1: case and possibly in many other cases which have relied

764
00:48:00,880 --> 00:48:06,480
Speaker 1: on forensic evidence. We believe that the recent discovery by

765
00:48:06,600 --> 00:48:10,560
Speaker 1: Kirsty and her review team about the chemical levels in

766
00:48:10,600 --> 00:48:15,000
Speaker 1: the tape lift tubes, along with her earlier findings about

767
00:48:15,040 --> 00:48:19,719
Speaker 1: the flawed DNA extraction method, may well hold the answers

768
00:48:19,840 --> 00:48:25,600
Speaker 1: to that question. The tapelifts are still available for retesting.

769
00:48:26,560 --> 00:48:31,000
Speaker 1: Kirsty's report described the discovery about the chemicals as something

770
00:48:31,040 --> 00:48:36,600
Speaker 1: that will greatly benefit any retesting of these samples. In

771
00:48:36,680 --> 00:48:41,200
Speaker 1: some good news, Kirsty's report confirmed that the lab is

772
00:48:41,360 --> 00:48:46,560
Speaker 1: willing to take advice from other scientists about retesting DNA

773
00:48:46,760 --> 00:48:51,360
Speaker 1: samples that are affected by Project thirteen. But the labs

774
00:48:51,440 --> 00:48:56,880
Speaker 1: delay in researching and processing the retesting of Project thirteen

775
00:48:56,960 --> 00:49:01,200
Speaker 1: samples some two years since the recommendation that came out

776
00:49:01,239 --> 00:49:07,080
Speaker 1: of Annabelle Bennett's inquiry, is scandalous. This is not just

777
00:49:07,080 --> 00:49:12,520
Speaker 1: justice delayed, it's justice swept under the rug. The harmful

778
00:49:12,560 --> 00:49:16,600
Speaker 1: effect that delays such as this in secrecy can have

779
00:49:16,719 --> 00:49:21,520
Speaker 1: on victims of crime and their families is all too obvious.

780
00:49:22,480 --> 00:49:26,200
Speaker 1: Just talk to Vicky Blackburn and her eldest daughter, Shunner.

781
00:49:27,320 --> 00:49:31,680
Speaker 1: There is one silver lining with the Project thirteen samples.

782
00:49:32,280 --> 00:49:36,320
Speaker 1: Perhaps the lab's delay has been a blessing in disguise

783
00:49:36,840 --> 00:49:41,440
Speaker 1: because it has prevented the samples from being further compromised

784
00:49:41,640 --> 00:49:48,120
Speaker 1: and degraded through additional poor testing. Her critical discovery of

785
00:49:48,200 --> 00:49:52,240
Speaker 1: the insufficient chemical levels in the testing tubes will also

786
00:49:52,400 --> 00:50:19,200
Speaker 1: make a powerful difference. We wanted to know exactly where

787
00:50:19,280 --> 00:50:23,319
Speaker 1: Shandy's retesting was up to and what is happening in

788
00:50:23,360 --> 00:50:28,719
Speaker 1: the reopened coronial investigation into her death. We asked the

789
00:50:28,800 --> 00:50:33,560
Speaker 1: Coroner's Court of Queensland for an update shortly before we

790
00:50:33,640 --> 00:50:38,560
Speaker 1: finalized this episode. A spokesperson for the court told us.

791
00:50:39,320 --> 00:50:43,520
Speaker 22: The Coroner's Court of Queensland confirms the coronial investigation into

792
00:50:43,560 --> 00:50:46,680
Speaker 22: the death of Miss Shandy Blackburn has been reopened for

793
00:50:46,760 --> 00:50:52,800
Speaker 22: further investigation. Certain investigatory steps are being undertaken. The Court

794
00:50:52,880 --> 00:50:56,400
Speaker 22: is unable to advise when these further steps will be completed.

795
00:50:56,760 --> 00:51:00,600
Speaker 22: As such, no further information will be provided at this time.

796
00:51:01,920 --> 00:51:06,480
Speaker 1: It has been some four years since Shandy's coronial investigation

797
00:51:06,920 --> 00:51:11,319
Speaker 1: was reopened. After all that time, all the water that's

798
00:51:11,360 --> 00:51:15,160
Speaker 1: flowed under the bridge, all of the public disclosures, it

799
00:51:15,280 --> 00:51:19,640
Speaker 1: is disappointing that we didn't receive a more detailed response

800
00:51:19,800 --> 00:51:25,439
Speaker 1: from the Coroner's Court. It is an ongoing investigation. It's

801
00:51:25,600 --> 00:51:28,560
Speaker 1: true that there might be good reasons for the court's

802
00:51:28,640 --> 00:51:29,440
Speaker 1: vague response.

803
00:51:30,280 --> 00:51:31,160
Speaker 2: We just don't know.

804
00:51:32,560 --> 00:51:35,080
Speaker 19: A coronor has found the ex boyfriend of a woman

805
00:51:35,239 --> 00:51:38,839
Speaker 19: brutally stabbed to death in Mackay was responsible for her death.

806
00:51:39,120 --> 00:51:42,719
Speaker 23: In a bombshell finding, coroner David o'connall found Shandy's ex

807
00:51:42,760 --> 00:51:46,480
Speaker 23: boyfriend John Perros responsible, but in a shocking twist, the

808
00:51:46,520 --> 00:51:50,040
Speaker 23: findings won't mean Perros will be arrested or charged. He's

809
00:51:50,080 --> 00:51:53,279
Speaker 23: already been acquitted of Shandy's murder by a jury in

810
00:51:53,360 --> 00:51:57,560
Speaker 23: twenty seventeen. Under double jeopardy law's new and compelling evidence

811
00:51:57,600 --> 00:51:59,799
Speaker 23: would need to be presented to police for.

812
00:52:01,520 --> 00:52:04,640
Speaker 1: You just heard part of a seven New story from

813
00:52:04,719 --> 00:52:08,960
Speaker 1: twenty one August twenty twenty, the day the Queensland Central

814
00:52:09,040 --> 00:52:14,080
Speaker 1: Coroner's findings into Shandy Blackburn's murder were delivered. Now the

815
00:52:14,160 --> 00:52:17,920
Speaker 1: coroner's findings were delivered a year before the Shandy Story

816
00:52:17,960 --> 00:52:22,160
Speaker 1: podcast started. The podcast that led to two commissions of

817
00:52:22,239 --> 00:52:26,560
Speaker 1: inquiry into the lab and more revelations of the extraordinary,

818
00:52:26,760 --> 00:52:31,880
Speaker 1: multifaceted failings there. You also heard the reporter refer to

819
00:52:32,160 --> 00:52:38,080
Speaker 1: double jeopardy laws. They are potentially vitally important in Shandy's case.

820
00:52:39,000 --> 00:52:43,120
Speaker 1: Brisbane lawyer Christy Bell, who represented Shandy's mother Vicki and

821
00:52:43,320 --> 00:52:47,120
Speaker 1: Shandy's sister Shanna at the coronial inquest, spoke to me

822
00:52:47,440 --> 00:52:51,520
Speaker 1: about double jeopardy during the original podcast back in twenty

823
00:52:51,600 --> 00:52:52,880
Speaker 1: twenty two.

824
00:52:53,800 --> 00:52:57,920
Speaker 24: Double jeopardy is essentially the principle that a person cannot

825
00:52:57,960 --> 00:53:01,319
Speaker 24: be tried twice for the same effent. It's based on

826
00:53:01,719 --> 00:53:05,440
Speaker 24: a fundamental principle of finality of criminal proceedings and the

827
00:53:05,480 --> 00:53:09,640
Speaker 24: fact that any citizen who is accused of a criminal

828
00:53:09,680 --> 00:53:13,360
Speaker 24: offense is only required to defend themselves against that charge once,

829
00:53:13,520 --> 00:53:15,880
Speaker 24: and that once they have a verdict in relation to

830
00:53:15,920 --> 00:53:19,160
Speaker 24: that charge, that verdict is final and the Crown or

831
00:53:19,200 --> 00:53:22,560
Speaker 24: the prosecution can't keep coming back and trying again.

832
00:53:24,719 --> 00:53:27,879
Speaker 1: At the time of our interview in early twenty twenty two,

833
00:53:28,040 --> 00:53:33,080
Speaker 1: Queensland did have some narrow exceptions too, double Jeopardy. These

834
00:53:33,200 --> 00:53:36,760
Speaker 1: exceptions came as a result of the murder of a toddler,

835
00:53:37,080 --> 00:53:41,440
Speaker 1: Deirdre Kennedy, and then the campaigning by her mother Faye.

836
00:53:42,760 --> 00:53:48,239
Speaker 1: Seventeen month old Deirdrey was abducted from her cot, sexually assaulted,

837
00:53:48,400 --> 00:53:53,400
Speaker 1: bitten and strangled in nineteen seventy three. Her tiny body

838
00:53:53,520 --> 00:53:56,440
Speaker 1: was left on top of a public toilet block in

839
00:53:56,520 --> 00:54:01,560
Speaker 1: a park in Ipswich, about a fifty minute drive from Brisbane.

840
00:54:01,680 --> 00:54:08,040
Speaker 1: For years, Deirdre's murder went unsolved. Her alleged killer, Raymond Carroll,

841
00:54:08,239 --> 00:54:11,719
Speaker 1: eventually came to the attention of police after he was

842
00:54:11,840 --> 00:54:15,600
Speaker 1: convicted over a separate break in in nineteen eighty two.

843
00:54:16,600 --> 00:54:20,920
Speaker 1: Raymond Carroll was convicted of Deirdre's murder by a jury

844
00:54:21,080 --> 00:54:25,359
Speaker 1: in nineteen eighty five, and during his murder trial, he

845
00:54:25,400 --> 00:54:30,800
Speaker 1: gave evidence under oath that he did not kill Deirdre. Unusually,

846
00:54:31,320 --> 00:54:36,279
Speaker 1: Carrol's conviction was overturned on appeal. The judges on that

847
00:54:36,480 --> 00:54:41,840
Speaker 1: court decided back then that there was insufficient evidence. Later,

848
00:54:42,520 --> 00:54:46,080
Speaker 1: more evidence linking Carol to the murder came to light,

849
00:54:46,800 --> 00:54:50,360
Speaker 1: but he could not be charged with murder again because

850
00:54:50,560 --> 00:54:55,400
Speaker 1: of double jeopardy. The next significant stage in this case

851
00:54:55,520 --> 00:54:59,480
Speaker 1: came in two thousand, when prosecutors tried to get around

852
00:54:59,560 --> 00:55:04,200
Speaker 1: that her by charging Carol with perjury, a serious criminal

853
00:55:04,280 --> 00:55:09,640
Speaker 1: offense that involves lying while giving evidence. In Carol's case,

854
00:55:09,680 --> 00:55:13,320
Speaker 1: the prosecutors argued that he lied at his nineteen eighty

855
00:55:13,360 --> 00:55:17,040
Speaker 1: five murder trial when he gave evidence under oath that

856
00:55:17,160 --> 00:55:22,200
Speaker 1: he did not kill Deirdre. This unorthodox effort by prosecutors

857
00:55:22,360 --> 00:55:26,560
Speaker 1: was successful, and Carol was found guilty of perjury by

858
00:55:26,560 --> 00:55:31,440
Speaker 1: a jury, but that verdict was also overturned on appeal

859
00:55:32,000 --> 00:55:35,600
Speaker 1: as it was what lawyers call an abuse of process

860
00:55:36,120 --> 00:55:41,000
Speaker 1: and it contravened double jeopardy. There would be no justice

861
00:55:41,000 --> 00:55:44,000
Speaker 1: for Deirdrey or her mother Fay because of the double

862
00:55:44,080 --> 00:55:50,400
Speaker 1: jeopardy laws. These outcomes in Deirdre's case sparked public outcry.

863
00:55:51,160 --> 00:55:55,600
Speaker 1: The former Supreme Court judge Angelo Vast, who had presided

864
00:55:55,680 --> 00:56:00,480
Speaker 1: over Raymond Carroll's original nineteen eighty five murder trial, spoke

865
00:56:00,600 --> 00:56:04,960
Speaker 1: to the ABC's Australian Story in two thousand and three.

866
00:56:05,920 --> 00:56:08,040
Speaker 25: And in this case, it's one of the rare cases

867
00:56:08,080 --> 00:56:11,680
Speaker 25: where I think the law has been over technical and

868
00:56:11,800 --> 00:56:15,800
Speaker 25: in those circumstances, I think that justice has not been done.

869
00:56:16,520 --> 00:56:22,879
Speaker 25: People know that Carol is responsible for this death. When

870
00:56:22,960 --> 00:56:28,320
Speaker 25: twenty four people have said in a properly constituted court

871
00:56:28,680 --> 00:56:32,040
Speaker 25: that he is guilty, the tentacles of justice just can't

872
00:56:32,120 --> 00:56:33,960
Speaker 25: reach him.

873
00:56:34,320 --> 00:56:38,760
Speaker 1: The senior Queensland lawyer, Michael Byrne, who prosecuted Carroll's case

874
00:56:38,880 --> 00:56:41,960
Speaker 1: at trial and on appeal all the way to the

875
00:56:42,080 --> 00:56:45,640
Speaker 1: High Court, spoke to the ABC's The Law Report back

876
00:56:45,680 --> 00:56:49,000
Speaker 1: in two thousand and five about the need to reform

877
00:56:49,040 --> 00:56:49,440
Speaker 1: the law.

878
00:56:50,600 --> 00:56:52,839
Speaker 26: I think that the rule had its time, it had

879
00:56:52,880 --> 00:56:56,879
Speaker 26: its place. The difficulty with the rule in the real

880
00:56:56,880 --> 00:56:59,759
Speaker 26: world now is that evidence and forensics has so much

881
00:57:00,000 --> 00:57:00,719
Speaker 26: more than what they.

882
00:57:00,640 --> 00:57:02,840
Speaker 2: Were as a law and order issue.

883
00:57:03,120 --> 00:57:06,719
Speaker 26: I can't understand why the various governments don't see it

884
00:57:07,400 --> 00:57:12,680
Speaker 26: as a primary issue of having a person rightfully convicted

885
00:57:12,719 --> 00:57:13,200
Speaker 26: of the crime.

886
00:57:14,760 --> 00:57:20,439
Speaker 1: Many people, including lawyers and former judges, agitated and campaigned

887
00:57:20,520 --> 00:57:25,840
Speaker 1: for changes to the existing double jeopardy laws. Deirdrey's mother, Fay,

888
00:57:26,080 --> 00:57:29,760
Speaker 1: came into sharper focus along with a former police officer

889
00:57:29,840 --> 00:57:34,840
Speaker 1: who became a politician. Peter Dutton was then the Federal

890
00:57:34,920 --> 00:57:37,680
Speaker 1: member for Dixon in Queensland and he got on the

891
00:57:37,720 --> 00:57:41,160
Speaker 1: front foot with Fay Kennedy in a campaign to amend

892
00:57:41,200 --> 00:57:45,880
Speaker 1: the double jeopardy rule. Peter Dutton had worked on Deirdrey's

893
00:57:45,960 --> 00:57:49,840
Speaker 1: murder case as a detective in Queensland in the nineteen nineties.

894
00:57:50,760 --> 00:57:55,600
Speaker 1: Other Australian states and territories also considered making changes to

895
00:57:55,680 --> 00:58:00,240
Speaker 1: their double jeopardy laws in light of Deirdrey's case. Here

896
00:58:00,280 --> 00:58:03,400
Speaker 1: are Fay Kennedy and Peter Dutton talking to the ABC

897
00:58:04,800 --> 00:58:06,040
Speaker 1: to have the law changed.

898
00:58:06,560 --> 00:58:09,680
Speaker 27: And it be because of the battle that we've had

899
00:58:09,920 --> 00:58:13,400
Speaker 27: over the years that will be some form of justice

900
00:58:13,680 --> 00:58:17,800
Speaker 27: to me to be able to know the Deary's death

901
00:58:18,320 --> 00:58:19,400
Speaker 27: wasn't totally in vain.

902
00:58:20,920 --> 00:58:24,040
Speaker 9: If this law is changed, and it should be, it

903
00:58:24,080 --> 00:58:27,440
Speaker 9: may or May not help missus Kennedy, but I hope

904
00:58:27,480 --> 00:58:31,160
Speaker 9: and pray that it would, and that justice would be

905
00:58:31,200 --> 00:58:35,600
Speaker 9: delivered by seeing Carol spending his remaining living days in jail,

906
00:58:36,320 --> 00:58:38,920
Speaker 9: preferably a long and miserable existence.

907
00:58:40,720 --> 00:58:44,760
Speaker 1: Faye understood the power of the media in situations like this,

908
00:58:45,080 --> 00:58:48,240
Speaker 1: and she spoke to Richard Carlton for a sixty minutes

909
00:58:48,320 --> 00:58:50,320
Speaker 1: program in two thousand and six.

910
00:58:53,080 --> 00:58:56,959
Speaker 11: If Carol is the killer, then petterophile or not, he's

911
00:58:57,040 --> 00:58:59,240
Speaker 11: protected by the double jeopardy rule.

912
00:59:00,440 --> 00:59:02,960
Speaker 28: If I could change this law for one other family,

913
00:59:04,520 --> 00:59:10,800
Speaker 28: I've done some good. It just seems so wrong and

914
00:59:10,880 --> 00:59:14,960
Speaker 28: this can go on no who else has suffered like

915
00:59:15,080 --> 00:59:17,240
Speaker 28: I have because of a law.

916
00:59:19,040 --> 00:59:20,600
Speaker 4: I just feel driven to do this.

917
00:59:21,280 --> 00:59:24,680
Speaker 28: I just feel driven, and I believe I will get

918
00:59:24,680 --> 00:59:26,400
Speaker 28: this result that I'm looking for.

919
00:59:28,200 --> 00:59:33,400
Speaker 1: Raymond Carroll, who had always strenuously asserted his innocence, did

920
00:59:33,440 --> 00:59:35,200
Speaker 1: give his side of the story too.

921
00:59:36,160 --> 00:59:38,960
Speaker 29: I feel extremely sorry for missus Kennedy for her loss.

922
00:59:39,720 --> 00:59:44,040
Speaker 29: I honestly hope she does get closure for this crime,

923
00:59:44,600 --> 00:59:46,640
Speaker 29: but I'm sorry she is not going to get it

924
00:59:46,680 --> 00:59:50,160
Speaker 29: at my expense because I did not do it.

925
00:59:51,960 --> 00:59:56,200
Speaker 1: They Kennedy's campaigning led to changes to Queensland's double jeopardy

926
00:59:56,280 --> 00:59:59,720
Speaker 1: laws in two thousand and seven, a year after the

927
00:59:59,720 --> 01:00:04,120
Speaker 1: six sixty minute story. The key change meant that an

928
01:00:04,160 --> 01:00:07,760
Speaker 1: accused who had been found not guilty at his or

929
01:00:07,800 --> 01:00:12,600
Speaker 1: her trial could go on trial again for the same offense,

930
01:00:13,040 --> 01:00:17,360
Speaker 1: but only if fresh and compelling evidence had come to

931
01:00:17,440 --> 01:00:21,560
Speaker 1: light and a retrial was considered to be in the

932
01:00:21,760 --> 01:00:23,840
Speaker 1: interests of justice.

933
01:00:24,000 --> 01:00:26,240
Speaker 2: Importantly, it only.

934
01:00:25,920 --> 01:00:32,080
Speaker 1: Applied to the most serious offense, murder. At Deirdre's alleged murderer,

935
01:00:32,240 --> 01:00:36,840
Speaker 1: Raymond Carroll, was not put on trial again. It seems

936
01:00:36,880 --> 01:00:39,880
Speaker 1: that there has only been one attempt by the Director

937
01:00:39,920 --> 01:00:43,880
Speaker 1: of Public Prosecutions in Queensland to run a second trial

938
01:00:44,040 --> 01:00:47,240
Speaker 1: as a result of the double jeopardy law changes in

939
01:00:47,280 --> 01:00:52,840
Speaker 1: two thousand and seven. In Queensland's most recent DNA lab

940
01:00:52,920 --> 01:00:58,320
Speaker 1: debarcles the comprehensive findings by a formal public inquiry headed

941
01:00:58,320 --> 01:01:02,800
Speaker 1: by Walter Sofronoff that DNA testing by the lab had

942
01:01:02,840 --> 01:01:09,160
Speaker 1: been fundamentally flawed for years and therefore some offenders must

943
01:01:09,240 --> 01:01:13,520
Speaker 1: have been acquitted in trials in which abject failures by

944
01:01:13,560 --> 01:01:18,600
Speaker 1: the lab meant sketchy or no DNA evidence being used

945
01:01:18,800 --> 01:01:24,080
Speaker 1: against probable criminals. Now with the reforms to the LAB

946
01:01:24,200 --> 01:01:28,960
Speaker 1: and the recommended retesting of thousands of crime scene samples

947
01:01:29,000 --> 01:01:34,160
Speaker 1: going back years, there will inevitably be many cases where

948
01:01:34,320 --> 01:01:38,760
Speaker 1: damning DNA is detected in which the accused has previously

949
01:01:38,800 --> 01:01:44,280
Speaker 1: been acquitted. Prosecutors and victims of crime would say that

950
01:01:44,400 --> 01:01:49,280
Speaker 1: this kind of retested evidence is in fact fresh and

951
01:01:49,480 --> 01:01:53,400
Speaker 1: compelling and therefore meets the test, and that the alleged

952
01:01:53,440 --> 01:01:58,440
Speaker 1: offender should face a new criminal trial. But defense lawyers

953
01:01:58,480 --> 01:02:02,080
Speaker 1: and their clients would say that evidence from the retesting

954
01:02:02,160 --> 01:02:07,800
Speaker 1: of old or original DNA should be declared inadmissible, and

955
01:02:07,840 --> 01:02:11,520
Speaker 1: they'd argue that it's not fresh, nor is it compelling,

956
01:02:11,720 --> 01:02:15,080
Speaker 1: and that the prosecution shouldn't get a second bite at

957
01:02:15,160 --> 01:02:18,760
Speaker 1: the cherry just because the lab stuffed things up the

958
01:02:18,800 --> 01:02:25,040
Speaker 1: first time. Walter Soffronoff, however, found that serious problems existed

959
01:02:25,080 --> 01:02:28,360
Speaker 1: within the LAB for many years, some of them are

960
01:02:28,400 --> 01:02:35,200
Speaker 1: mounting to grave maladministration involving dishonesty. These failures created a

961
01:02:35,280 --> 01:02:40,600
Speaker 1: real risk of miscarriage of justice. As a direct result

962
01:02:40,760 --> 01:02:44,480
Speaker 1: of the Lab debarcle and the Sofeironoff findings, the then

963
01:02:44,640 --> 01:02:49,120
Speaker 1: Labor government committed to further reforms of double jeopardy laws

964
01:02:49,160 --> 01:02:53,680
Speaker 1: in Queensland. He is Shannon Fentaman, the Attorney General at

965
01:02:53,680 --> 01:02:54,160
Speaker 1: the time.

966
01:02:55,040 --> 01:02:58,760
Speaker 30: In Queensland, the fresh and compelling exception to double jeopardy

967
01:02:58,880 --> 01:03:02,640
Speaker 30: only applies to murder. We want to look at broadening

968
01:03:02,720 --> 01:03:06,200
Speaker 30: that fresh and compelling exception to double jeopardy so that

969
01:03:06,240 --> 01:03:09,920
Speaker 30: it applies to more serious offenses, not just murder. I

970
01:03:09,960 --> 01:03:13,520
Speaker 30: want Queensland to join with most other jurisdictions and expand

971
01:03:13,800 --> 01:03:18,040
Speaker 30: the exception to other serious offenses as well.

972
01:03:18,240 --> 01:03:22,920
Speaker 1: My friend and colleague, The Australian's Queensland political reporter Lydia Lynch,

973
01:03:23,080 --> 01:03:27,360
Speaker 1: explained the policy push this way in December twenty twenty two.

974
01:03:28,440 --> 01:03:31,360
Speaker 31: So at the moment in Queensland, if you have been

975
01:03:31,480 --> 01:03:35,840
Speaker 31: tried for say rape, and you've been acquitted, even if

976
01:03:35,880 --> 01:03:39,640
Speaker 31: there's new DNA evidence, you actually can't be retried because

977
01:03:39,640 --> 01:03:43,200
Speaker 31: of double jeopardy laws. There's one exception to that law,

978
01:03:43,640 --> 01:03:48,240
Speaker 31: which is only in murder offenses. Most other jurisdictions in

979
01:03:48,280 --> 01:03:53,320
Speaker 31: Australia do expand that exception to other serious offenses like

980
01:03:53,520 --> 01:03:57,360
Speaker 31: rapes or child sexual abuse, but in Queensland it's only

981
01:03:57,480 --> 01:04:00,320
Speaker 31: just for murder. So the reason why this is so

982
01:04:00,400 --> 01:04:04,400
Speaker 31: significant is that once they go back and retest all

983
01:04:04,440 --> 01:04:08,080
Speaker 31: those samples, which they're now doing that the lab had

984
01:04:08,120 --> 01:04:12,000
Speaker 31: shelved for years. If those DNA samples come back and

985
01:04:12,080 --> 01:04:16,120
Speaker 31: could prove that acquitted offenders actually did commit the offense,

986
01:04:16,200 --> 01:04:18,120
Speaker 31: they can be retried.

987
01:04:19,000 --> 01:04:23,520
Speaker 1: Without law reform. Shandy's mother, Vicki Blackburn, feared that even

988
01:04:23,560 --> 01:04:27,640
Speaker 1: if different results or new evidence such as a DNA

989
01:04:27,800 --> 01:04:32,280
Speaker 1: profile for Shandy's alleged killer, were found during any retesting

990
01:04:32,320 --> 01:04:37,320
Speaker 1: of Shandy's samples, it might not be considered fresh by judges.

991
01:04:38,240 --> 01:04:41,960
Speaker 32: We felt, specifically with issues with the DNA failures, the

992
01:04:42,000 --> 01:04:47,240
Speaker 32: double jeopardy laws as they stood were virtually useless and

993
01:04:47,280 --> 01:04:49,760
Speaker 32: that we felt was a failure of the justice system,

994
01:04:49,840 --> 01:04:55,040
Speaker 32: because you need DNA as it progresses and becomes more

995
01:04:55,080 --> 01:04:59,800
Speaker 32: and more scientific. What was available twenty years ago can

996
01:04:59,800 --> 01:05:02,720
Speaker 32: be retested now and get a result which it couldn't

997
01:05:02,720 --> 01:05:05,760
Speaker 32: twenty years ago. But what was the point if the

998
01:05:05,920 --> 01:05:07,320
Speaker 32: cases couldn't be retried.

999
01:05:08,800 --> 01:05:13,320
Speaker 1: Like Deirdre's mother Fay, Shandy's mum, Vicky Blackburn worked hard

1000
01:05:13,320 --> 01:05:17,680
Speaker 1: to help bring about changes to the laws. Vicky joined

1001
01:05:17,720 --> 01:05:22,160
Speaker 1: with Christy Bell, the Brisbane lawyer who had an encyclopedic

1002
01:05:22,240 --> 01:05:26,560
Speaker 1: knowledge of Shandy's case, from the coronial inquiry and knew

1003
01:05:26,600 --> 01:05:28,720
Speaker 1: her way around law reform.

1004
01:05:29,280 --> 01:05:33,600
Speaker 32: She's been very generously giving us legal advice and supporting

1005
01:05:33,680 --> 01:05:36,560
Speaker 32: us and everything we do. When I mentioned the double

1006
01:05:36,640 --> 01:05:40,000
Speaker 32: jeopardy to her, I said, this is something I really

1007
01:05:40,040 --> 01:05:43,520
Speaker 32: want to do. We had meetings and put a lot

1008
01:05:43,560 --> 01:05:46,880
Speaker 32: of time and effort into making sure that what needed

1009
01:05:47,080 --> 01:05:50,520
Speaker 32: to be in that double jeopardy change laws was there

1010
01:05:50,720 --> 01:05:53,320
Speaker 32: for the outcome of not us, but all of the

1011
01:05:53,440 --> 01:05:56,080
Speaker 32: victims with the DNA failures.

1012
01:05:56,840 --> 01:06:02,680
Speaker 1: Ultimately, the campaigning by Vicki and others was successful. Changes

1013
01:06:02,720 --> 01:06:07,320
Speaker 1: to the law came into effect. The fresh and compelling

1014
01:06:07,400 --> 01:06:12,320
Speaker 1: evidence double jeopardy exception now applies to ten serious offenses

1015
01:06:12,680 --> 01:06:19,960
Speaker 1: in addition to murder. Those offenses include manslaughter, attempted murder, rape, incest,

1016
01:06:20,440 --> 01:06:24,960
Speaker 1: certain other sexual assaults, and certain offenses against children and

1017
01:06:25,080 --> 01:06:29,320
Speaker 1: persons with an impairment of the mind. The changes should

1018
01:06:29,440 --> 01:06:32,520
Speaker 1: ensure that in cases where scientists from the lab did

1019
01:06:32,560 --> 01:06:36,760
Speaker 1: a poor job years ago when testing crime scene samples,

1020
01:06:37,000 --> 01:06:41,920
Speaker 1: resulting in potentially damning DNA evidence not being recovered and

1021
01:06:42,080 --> 01:06:45,800
Speaker 1: not being used against and accused, and then the person

1022
01:06:45,920 --> 01:06:51,600
Speaker 1: being acquitted, the case isn't forever doomed. This is because

1023
01:06:51,720 --> 01:06:56,160
Speaker 1: the original crime scene evidence could still be used, as

1024
01:06:56,200 --> 01:07:00,000
Speaker 1: it would be seen as fresh evidence in a reach

1025
01:07:00,360 --> 01:07:05,720
Speaker 1: of the same alleged offender. The new laws became effective

1026
01:07:05,920 --> 01:07:11,000
Speaker 1: in early twenty twenty four. They operate retrospectively so that

1027
01:07:11,040 --> 01:07:16,880
Speaker 1: they can potentially capture past acquittals from years earlier. How

1028
01:07:16,920 --> 01:07:20,840
Speaker 1: will it actually work in practice, though, I asked by

1029
01:07:21,000 --> 01:07:25,400
Speaker 1: new colleague and fellow investigator, the former lawyer Karina Berger,

1030
01:07:25,560 --> 01:07:28,960
Speaker 1: who has been devouring the double jeopardy issues for this

1031
01:07:29,080 --> 01:07:32,880
Speaker 1: episode Korea, how is this actually going to work in practice?

1032
01:07:33,480 --> 01:07:36,520
Speaker 33: The law deliberately sets the bar for holding a retrial

1033
01:07:36,640 --> 01:07:41,000
Speaker 33: very high, because retrying someone for an offense for which

1034
01:07:41,040 --> 01:07:44,480
Speaker 33: they've previously been acquitted is a really serious step that

1035
01:07:44,520 --> 01:07:49,200
Speaker 33: should only be taken in exceptional circumstances, and an application

1036
01:07:49,280 --> 01:07:52,400
Speaker 33: can only be made by the Director of Public Prosecutions,

1037
01:07:52,440 --> 01:07:54,480
Speaker 33: and this has to be made to the Queensland Court

1038
01:07:54,480 --> 01:07:54,960
Speaker 33: of Appeal.

1039
01:07:55,960 --> 01:07:59,040
Speaker 1: The changes to the meaning of fresh evidence look like

1040
01:07:59,320 --> 01:08:03,600
Speaker 1: they are a direct response to what we've seen from

1041
01:08:04,200 --> 01:08:08,880
Speaker 1: Kirsty's work and the revelations about the failures of that

1042
01:08:09,000 --> 01:08:09,760
Speaker 1: DNA lab.

1043
01:08:10,840 --> 01:08:14,560
Speaker 33: I agree Hedley, and I think these changes allow for

1044
01:08:14,600 --> 01:08:17,479
Speaker 33: the situation where an expert has done the wrong thing,

1045
01:08:17,640 --> 01:08:20,400
Speaker 33: but the police and prosecutors have done the right thing,

1046
01:08:21,000 --> 01:08:23,800
Speaker 33: and they allow the prosecution to have another crack at

1047
01:08:23,800 --> 01:08:25,320
Speaker 33: an alleged serious criminal.

1048
01:08:26,640 --> 01:08:28,960
Speaker 32: The government at the time did a really good job

1049
01:08:29,439 --> 01:08:34,639
Speaker 32: and extended it to sexual assault and violent crimes as well,

1050
01:08:34,720 --> 01:08:39,160
Speaker 32: which is amazing. That was important to me. When a

1051
01:08:39,240 --> 01:08:42,639
Speaker 32: case does test that double jeopardy, I'd love to be there.

1052
01:08:42,680 --> 01:08:44,360
Speaker 4: I want to whose ever case that is.

1053
01:08:45,840 --> 01:08:49,040
Speaker 1: I'll just introduce you to doctor Kirsty Wright. She has

1054
01:08:49,040 --> 01:08:52,640
Speaker 1: got a lot to tell you. While doing research for

1055
01:08:52,720 --> 01:08:56,599
Speaker 1: this episode in late twenty twenty five, I went back

1056
01:08:56,640 --> 01:09:00,880
Speaker 1: and listened to that conversation from four years ago, the

1057
01:09:01,000 --> 01:09:04,920
Speaker 1: first time Kirsty met Shandy's mother, Vicki and sister Shanna

1058
01:09:05,080 --> 01:09:08,679
Speaker 1: to tell them about the lab's DNA failures and why,

1059
01:09:09,120 --> 01:09:14,840
Speaker 1: quite possibly Shandy's murder remained unsolved. A reminder of the

1060
01:09:14,880 --> 01:09:19,560
Speaker 1: power of people and podcasts and listeners to expose wrongdoing.

1061
01:09:20,760 --> 01:09:23,439
Speaker 1: I had taken an early morning flight to the central

1062
01:09:23,520 --> 01:09:25,440
Speaker 1: Queensland town of Mackay.

1063
01:09:25,320 --> 01:09:26,320
Speaker 2: Where Vicky lives.

1064
01:09:27,240 --> 01:09:30,160
Speaker 1: We met at her apartment, a short walk from the

1065
01:09:30,200 --> 01:09:34,400
Speaker 1: corner of Bodington Street where Shandy was murdered, where Vicky

1066
01:09:34,520 --> 01:09:38,440
Speaker 1: and random passes by plays flowers and pay their respects.

1067
01:09:39,280 --> 01:09:42,000
Speaker 1: I went to Mackay that day to tell Vicky the

1068
01:09:42,080 --> 01:09:45,760
Speaker 1: direction that the podcast investigation was going in at that

1069
01:09:46,000 --> 01:09:50,240
Speaker 1: time four years ago, a direction that we didn't expect.

1070
01:09:51,320 --> 01:09:54,680
Speaker 1: It came about as a direct result of the remarkable

1071
01:09:54,680 --> 01:09:58,360
Speaker 1: discoveries that were being made by Kirsty about the lab's

1072
01:09:58,479 --> 01:10:03,400
Speaker 1: bungled testing of DNA in Shandy's case and many other cases.

1073
01:10:04,320 --> 01:10:08,720
Speaker 1: We strongly suspected at that very early stage back then

1074
01:10:08,880 --> 01:10:13,840
Speaker 1: that the ramifications would be massive. When Kirsty's revelations were

1075
01:10:13,880 --> 01:10:18,639
Speaker 1: aired in podcast episodes which were days away from being released.

1076
01:10:19,840 --> 01:10:23,720
Speaker 1: For something this big and after everything that they had

1077
01:10:23,800 --> 01:10:27,800
Speaker 1: been through, Vicky and Shanner deserved to know to have

1078
01:10:27,920 --> 01:10:31,759
Speaker 1: a heads up shortly before the news went to hundreds

1079
01:10:31,760 --> 01:10:35,840
Speaker 1: of thousands of listeners. While Vicky sat with me and

1080
01:10:36,000 --> 01:10:40,000
Speaker 1: our laptops at her dining table, her daughter Shanner was

1081
01:10:40,040 --> 01:10:44,479
Speaker 1: in Brisbane, as was their staunchly supportive lawyer, Christy Bell,

1082
01:10:44,920 --> 01:10:48,679
Speaker 1: who first got involved for the inquest back in twenty nineteen.

1083
01:10:49,800 --> 01:10:53,320
Speaker 1: Doctor Kirsty Wright fired up the computer at her home

1084
01:10:53,400 --> 01:10:54,320
Speaker 1: on the Gold Coast.

1085
01:10:55,160 --> 01:10:56,840
Speaker 2: We held a zoom conference.

1086
01:10:57,880 --> 01:11:02,280
Speaker 1: That's when Vicky and Shanner and Christy met Kirsty on

1087
01:11:02,320 --> 01:11:06,600
Speaker 1: a screen and heard about Kirsty's scientific discoveries over the

1088
01:11:06,680 --> 01:11:10,000
Speaker 1: previous few months since I had met Kirsty thanks to

1089
01:11:10,040 --> 01:11:13,760
Speaker 1: a Google search. It was their first briefing on the

1090
01:11:13,800 --> 01:11:17,160
Speaker 1: forensic catastrophe that the scientist was uncovering.

1091
01:11:18,040 --> 01:11:20,559
Speaker 20: As I suggested to Headley, this could just be the

1092
01:11:20,560 --> 01:11:24,360
Speaker 20: tip of the iceberg if samples were being processed from

1093
01:11:24,520 --> 01:11:28,160
Speaker 20: other cases. How many other cases are there where an

1094
01:11:28,200 --> 01:11:31,960
Speaker 20: offender wasn't detected? Headley and I've been talking about the

1095
01:11:32,040 --> 01:11:35,280
Speaker 20: need for a public inquiry. I think what's happened is

1096
01:11:35,360 --> 01:11:37,600
Speaker 20: absolutely appalling. I'm disgusted.

1097
01:11:38,760 --> 01:11:43,160
Speaker 1: Kirsty's really modest, but I know how highly regarded she

1098
01:11:43,360 --> 01:11:47,599
Speaker 1: is in forensic biology. We're back in Kirsty's analysis one

1099
01:11:47,680 --> 01:11:50,960
Speaker 1: hundred percent, and we're going to roll all of these

1100
01:11:51,000 --> 01:11:54,639
Speaker 1: revelations out over the next number of weeks and days,

1101
01:11:55,240 --> 01:11:57,439
Speaker 1: and we just don't know where it could end up,

1102
01:11:57,640 --> 01:12:02,800
Speaker 1: but it should end up in a proper public inquiry. Oh.

1103
01:12:02,800 --> 01:12:05,360
Speaker 1: The other thing I should add is does any of

1104
01:12:05,360 --> 01:12:09,000
Speaker 1: it indicate John did or did not kill Shandy?

1105
01:12:09,200 --> 01:12:11,719
Speaker 2: And that's just unknown, isn't it. Kirsty?

1106
01:12:12,880 --> 01:12:13,519
Speaker 9: Yeah, that's right.

1107
01:12:13,600 --> 01:12:17,519
Speaker 20: I don't think that we can speculate on that. We

1108
01:12:17,600 --> 01:12:21,560
Speaker 20: simply don't know unless there's the opportunity to not only retest,

1109
01:12:21,920 --> 01:12:25,160
Speaker 20: but to properly investigate what the hell was going on

1110
01:12:25,240 --> 01:12:25,800
Speaker 20: in that lab.

1111
01:12:27,080 --> 01:12:31,520
Speaker 1: After an hour on this auspicious morning in late November

1112
01:12:31,720 --> 01:12:34,480
Speaker 1: twenty twenty one, Kirsty added.

1113
01:12:34,760 --> 01:12:37,360
Speaker 20: Can I just say when Headley first approached me and

1114
01:12:37,400 --> 01:12:40,400
Speaker 20: then gave me a mountain of documents, I had to

1115
01:12:40,439 --> 01:12:44,120
Speaker 20: make a decision whether I invite stress and risk into

1116
01:12:44,160 --> 01:12:46,120
Speaker 20: my life or if I go ahead and do the

1117
01:12:46,200 --> 01:12:48,759
Speaker 20: right thing. And VICKI the thing that changed my mind

1118
01:12:48,840 --> 01:12:51,400
Speaker 20: was going on to your Facebook page Justice for Shandy,

1119
01:12:51,520 --> 01:12:54,360
Speaker 20: and within five seconds my mind was made up. That's

1120
01:12:54,400 --> 01:12:56,920
Speaker 20: been a major source of inspiration for me, and I

1121
01:12:57,000 --> 01:12:59,760
Speaker 20: actually regularly check it just to keep my motivation up.

1122
01:13:00,160 --> 01:13:02,559
Speaker 20: I've got so much respect and admiration for the both

1123
01:13:02,640 --> 01:13:04,880
Speaker 20: of you, and I'm here for the long haul. I'm

1124
01:13:04,880 --> 01:13:07,840
Speaker 20: not going to disappear anywhere soon. As long as it takes,

1125
01:13:07,960 --> 01:13:09,920
Speaker 20: or whatever it takes, I'm happy to support.

1126
01:13:09,960 --> 01:13:15,800
Speaker 32: You can't bully where I've whelmed with gratitude and we

1127
01:13:15,920 --> 01:13:16,760
Speaker 32: just can't believe it.

1128
01:13:18,040 --> 01:13:21,559
Speaker 1: After we had been talking for an hour to explain

1129
01:13:21,760 --> 01:13:26,360
Speaker 1: as much as possible. Vicky and Shanner were clearly deeply affected.

1130
01:13:27,200 --> 01:13:31,040
Speaker 1: I think we all appreciated the potential enormity of what

1131
01:13:31,240 --> 01:13:37,679
Speaker 1: was unfolding and what was being foreshadowed. It has now

1132
01:13:37,800 --> 01:13:42,200
Speaker 1: been four years since Vicky and Shanner and their lawyer

1133
01:13:42,320 --> 01:13:46,479
Speaker 1: and friend Christy Bell heard about the lab's failures in

1134
01:13:46,520 --> 01:13:50,760
Speaker 1: a case which I started investigating in mid twenty twenty one.

1135
01:13:51,680 --> 01:13:53,040
Speaker 2: It's all still going.

1136
01:13:53,720 --> 01:13:58,680
Speaker 1: Twenty episodes of Shandy's Story and now eighteen episodes of

1137
01:13:58,800 --> 01:14:04,799
Speaker 1: Shandy's Legacy later. There has been a reopened inquest, two

1138
01:14:04,840 --> 01:14:09,640
Speaker 1: commissions of inquiry into the forensic catastrophes, a couple of

1139
01:14:09,680 --> 01:14:13,120
Speaker 1: one hundred million dollars spent trying to fix the lab,

1140
01:14:13,800 --> 01:14:18,880
Speaker 1: and two most recent reviews, and yet another new lab

1141
01:14:19,000 --> 01:14:23,719
Speaker 1: leader to properly continue the much needed reforms and repair

1142
01:14:23,800 --> 01:14:27,839
Speaker 1: work needed there. We do not know what the ultimate

1143
01:14:28,000 --> 01:14:32,120
Speaker 1: end of this case will look like. This is, however,

1144
01:14:32,320 --> 01:14:36,320
Speaker 1: the last episode for a while. Our pledge is to

1145
01:14:36,320 --> 01:14:41,920
Speaker 1: stay the course while Shandy's murderer, whoever he is, remains free,

1146
01:14:42,400 --> 01:14:46,360
Speaker 1: and as the Lab undergoes massive change to serve victims

1147
01:14:46,360 --> 01:14:50,040
Speaker 1: of crime and the criminal justice system. Our pledge is

1148
01:14:50,080 --> 01:14:55,040
Speaker 1: to continue to monitor what's going on, to investigate new leads,

1149
01:14:55,479 --> 01:14:59,160
Speaker 1: and bring new episodes as and when we believe they

1150
01:14:59,160 --> 01:15:04,280
Speaker 1: are needed. In the previous episode, you heard our suspicions

1151
01:15:04,280 --> 01:15:09,599
Speaker 1: about a damning internal document and its apparent cover up.

1152
01:15:10,240 --> 01:15:14,599
Speaker 1: The document was approved by the then LABS CEO, doctor

1153
01:15:14,680 --> 01:15:19,120
Speaker 1: Lindsey Wilson Wilde, for high level review in the Queensland

1154
01:15:19,160 --> 01:15:23,160
Speaker 1: Government in twenty twenty three, just a few months after

1155
01:15:23,280 --> 01:15:28,960
Speaker 1: Walter Soffronoff's first public inquiry had ended. The document was

1156
01:15:29,080 --> 01:15:34,280
Speaker 1: called the March twenty twenty three Briefing Note. We got

1157
01:15:34,320 --> 01:15:38,920
Speaker 1: the document for these update episodes of Shandy's Legacy as

1158
01:15:38,960 --> 01:15:43,000
Speaker 1: part of our ongoing investigation into the operation of the lab.

1159
01:15:44,200 --> 01:15:47,839
Speaker 1: As you heard, the document is full of alarming warnings

1160
01:15:47,880 --> 01:15:52,160
Speaker 1: about the ongoing critical risks in the lab, including the

1161
01:15:52,280 --> 01:15:57,240
Speaker 1: unreliability of the testing for DNA and subsequent results.

1162
01:15:58,320 --> 01:15:59,439
Speaker 2: The warnings in.

1163
01:15:59,400 --> 01:16:03,640
Speaker 1: That document are troubling for another reason. They were not

1164
01:16:03,840 --> 01:16:07,479
Speaker 1: shared with the Queensland Police, all, the Office of the

1165
01:16:07,479 --> 01:16:12,680
Speaker 1: Director of Public Prosecutions, or with the second Commission of Inquiry.

1166
01:16:12,600 --> 01:16:14,720
Speaker 2: The one run by Annabelle Bennett.

1167
01:16:14,880 --> 01:16:19,040
Speaker 1: In late twenty twenty three. We wanted to know from

1168
01:16:19,200 --> 01:16:23,679
Speaker 1: Shannon Fentaman and Yvette Darth, both of whom held cabinet

1169
01:16:23,760 --> 01:16:28,320
Speaker 1: roles as Attorney General and Health Minister, what if anything

1170
01:16:28,840 --> 01:16:33,879
Speaker 1: they knew about that document. Had they turned a blind

1171
01:16:33,960 --> 01:16:37,160
Speaker 1: eye to the document and even been part of its

1172
01:16:37,200 --> 01:16:43,080
Speaker 1: cover up? Or were they completely oblivious to it? Avet

1173
01:16:43,160 --> 01:16:47,959
Speaker 1: Darth has completely retired from politics and she didn't respond.

1174
01:16:48,840 --> 01:16:52,599
Speaker 1: But Shannon Fentaman is still a member of Parliament. Of course,

1175
01:16:52,760 --> 01:16:57,400
Speaker 1: she's now in opposition. Shannon was on leave, however, she

1176
01:16:57,560 --> 01:17:00,799
Speaker 1: sent me this note after I had told her about

1177
01:17:00,800 --> 01:17:04,400
Speaker 1: the March twenty twenty three briefing note and the serious

1178
01:17:04,479 --> 01:17:10,040
Speaker 1: question surrounding the apparent concealment of it. These are Shannon

1179
01:17:10,120 --> 01:17:13,479
Speaker 1: Fentman's words. It's not her voice.

1180
01:17:13,520 --> 01:17:15,720
Speaker 34: We have looked at the documents you are referring to.

1181
01:17:16,479 --> 01:17:18,680
Speaker 34: As I was not the minister at the time, I

1182
01:17:18,840 --> 01:17:22,080
Speaker 34: was never made aware of their existence. Though it would

1183
01:17:22,160 --> 01:17:25,719
Speaker 34: be highly unusual for I direct a general briefing note

1184
01:17:25,920 --> 01:17:28,720
Speaker 34: to be given to a minister, that would always come

1185
01:17:28,760 --> 01:17:32,160
Speaker 34: as a ministerial briefing note. As for why they were

1186
01:17:32,200 --> 01:17:35,679
Speaker 34: not provided to the Second Commission of Inquiry, that would

1187
01:17:35,680 --> 01:17:38,400
Speaker 34: be a matter for the Commission and the Health Department

1188
01:17:38,640 --> 01:17:40,840
Speaker 34: when they respond to the request for documents.

1189
01:17:42,479 --> 01:17:47,320
Speaker 1: Queensland has a Crime and Corruption Commission. It has been

1190
01:17:47,400 --> 01:17:53,439
Speaker 1: disappointingly silent throughout the whole DNA debarkle. In our view,

1191
01:17:53,760 --> 01:17:58,000
Speaker 1: it should look closely at this matter. The Anti corruption

1192
01:17:58,160 --> 01:18:02,080
Speaker 1: body has the power to investgate whether senior public servants

1193
01:18:02,400 --> 01:18:06,920
Speaker 1: deliberately withheld the March twenty twenty three briefing note from

1194
01:18:07,040 --> 01:18:12,240
Speaker 1: Prosecutors Police and even from the Second Commission of Inquiry.

1195
01:18:13,880 --> 01:18:17,840
Speaker 1: Shandy Story and Shandy's Legacy are going to take a

1196
01:18:17,920 --> 01:18:22,479
Speaker 1: pause now, but they're not over, not by a long stretch.

1197
01:18:29,160 --> 01:18:33,360
Speaker 1: This episode of Shandy's Legacy was investigated and written by

1198
01:18:33,400 --> 01:18:38,240
Speaker 1: me Headley Thomas and Karina Berger. Audio production for this

1199
01:18:38,360 --> 01:18:43,519
Speaker 1: podcast series is by Wasabi Audio and original theme music

1200
01:18:43,640 --> 01:18:47,720
Speaker 1: by Slade Gibson. This podcast series is brought to you

1201
01:18:47,800 --> 01:18:52,440
Speaker 1: by me Headley Thomas and the Australian newspaper and digital site.

1202
01:18:52,960 --> 01:18:57,400
Speaker 1: Visit Shandy dot com dot au that's s h a

1203
01:18:57,960 --> 01:19:05,680
Speaker 1: nde dot com dot Au for additional documentary material. Anyone

1204
01:19:05,840 --> 01:19:09,840
Speaker 1: with information about the murder of Shandy Blackburn can contact

1205
01:19:09,920 --> 01:19:14,960
Speaker 1: me confidentially by email by going to Shandy dot com

1206
01:19:15,040 --> 01:19:15,679
Speaker 1: dot Au