1 00:00:05,921 --> 00:00:07,281 Speaker 1: Approache production. 2 00:00:14,681 --> 00:00:17,081 Speaker 2: I took that with me when I started getting locked up. 3 00:00:17,121 --> 00:00:19,801 Speaker 2: I just I didn't let people see that side. The 4 00:00:19,841 --> 00:00:21,840 Speaker 2: only time I cried was in my cell or my 5 00:00:21,921 --> 00:00:25,521 Speaker 2: bunk with my blanket over my head. And you know, 6 00:00:25,961 --> 00:00:28,521 Speaker 2: that's just how it is. You don't show fear and 7 00:00:28,561 --> 00:00:29,721 Speaker 2: you don't show tears. 8 00:00:30,001 --> 00:00:32,921 Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly. And the many many years that I have 9 00:00:33,001 --> 00:00:37,121 Speaker 3: spend incarcerated myself, it's something that you know, you become 10 00:00:37,241 --> 00:00:41,641 Speaker 3: very vulnerable if you allow people to see your deeper emotions, 11 00:00:41,721 --> 00:00:45,241 Speaker 3: you know, or allow people to even know that you've 12 00:00:45,281 --> 00:00:48,001 Speaker 3: got children outside that you're concerned about, or you have 13 00:00:48,040 --> 00:00:50,081 Speaker 3: a bad phone call and you can't get off that 14 00:00:50,120 --> 00:00:52,321 Speaker 3: phone of even a matter HA had that phone call 15 00:00:52,561 --> 00:00:54,841 Speaker 3: was and turn around, let everyone see your shoulders drop 16 00:00:54,881 --> 00:00:57,801 Speaker 3: and your face, and you know, you're just literally a 17 00:00:57,840 --> 00:01:03,401 Speaker 3: walking target. And these are the realities of being incarcerated. 18 00:01:03,401 --> 00:01:05,961 Speaker 3: And I can only imagine for you over there, you know, 19 00:01:06,081 --> 00:01:08,721 Speaker 3: like how hectic it would have been. What was some 20 00:01:08,761 --> 00:01:11,720 Speaker 3: of the most vulnerable moments for you being in Joe. 21 00:01:12,721 --> 00:01:17,000 Speaker 2: So, I was with a cellmate that I got to 22 00:01:17,041 --> 00:01:20,200 Speaker 2: be pretty good friends with, and he was a black guy. 23 00:01:20,761 --> 00:01:23,840 Speaker 1: I'm not going to say his name. But he was him, 24 00:01:23,881 --> 00:01:24,800 Speaker 1: and I got he was in. 25 00:01:24,761 --> 00:01:28,961 Speaker 2: There for murder and attempted murder. And he was younger 26 00:01:28,961 --> 00:01:30,601 Speaker 2: than me. He was about ten years younger than me. 27 00:01:30,721 --> 00:01:32,481 Speaker 2: But he was tough, you know, he grew up even 28 00:01:32,521 --> 00:01:36,680 Speaker 2: harder than I did on the streets, gang banger, very 29 00:01:36,920 --> 00:01:39,961 Speaker 2: very intense, very tough guy. But he had this sweet 30 00:01:40,000 --> 00:01:43,160 Speaker 2: side to him. He was very much He was brought 31 00:01:43,241 --> 00:01:46,000 Speaker 2: up to not show fear or emotion himself. He wasn't 32 00:01:46,000 --> 00:01:48,041 Speaker 2: in touch with his stuness. I never saw him cry, 33 00:01:48,361 --> 00:01:50,441 Speaker 2: but I did see him get sad and upset. And 34 00:01:50,841 --> 00:01:53,201 Speaker 2: I remember I was sitting there talking to him one 35 00:01:53,241 --> 00:01:56,201 Speaker 2: day and I just broke down. I started crying, and 36 00:01:56,281 --> 00:01:58,281 Speaker 2: he said what's wrong? And I said, I miss my son, 37 00:01:58,721 --> 00:02:01,561 Speaker 2: and he goes, why do you miss him? And I 38 00:02:01,601 --> 00:02:03,721 Speaker 2: said because I love him and I haven't seen him 39 00:02:03,721 --> 00:02:04,961 Speaker 2: in so long, and he goes, yeah, but why have 40 00:02:05,081 --> 00:02:07,081 Speaker 2: and you've seen him in so long? And I said, 41 00:02:07,081 --> 00:02:10,721 Speaker 2: because I was out fucking around doing drugs, you know. 42 00:02:10,761 --> 00:02:12,681 Speaker 1: And he goes, you abandon him and I go I did. 43 00:02:13,161 --> 00:02:15,801 Speaker 1: And he goes, why would you do that? And I go, 44 00:02:16,201 --> 00:02:19,120 Speaker 1: I don't know, I don't know, and he goes, you know. 45 00:02:19,081 --> 00:02:21,601 Speaker 2: I sit with you here all the time, and I 46 00:02:21,641 --> 00:02:24,881 Speaker 2: hear you and you're smart, You're so intelligent. Why would 47 00:02:24,960 --> 00:02:29,201 Speaker 2: you abandon this person that loves you so much? You 48 00:02:29,240 --> 00:02:31,721 Speaker 2: know you're smart enough to know the difference. 49 00:02:31,761 --> 00:02:32,761 Speaker 1: Why would you do that? 50 00:02:32,881 --> 00:02:35,361 Speaker 2: And it was like he was compassionate, but he was 51 00:02:35,401 --> 00:02:38,881 Speaker 2: also sort of stern and hard on me, and I 52 00:02:39,361 --> 00:02:41,241 Speaker 2: just I broke down crying even harder. I said, I 53 00:02:41,240 --> 00:02:43,481 Speaker 2: want to see him so bad. I miss him so much. 54 00:02:43,601 --> 00:02:46,281 Speaker 2: I don't know what I'm doing. I can't believe I'm here. 55 00:02:47,121 --> 00:02:49,681 Speaker 2: I shouldn't be here. I need to be out. I 56 00:02:49,721 --> 00:02:52,601 Speaker 2: need to be with him. And he loves me so 57 00:02:52,680 --> 00:02:55,481 Speaker 2: much and he probably wonders where I am and he's 58 00:02:55,520 --> 00:02:57,881 Speaker 2: thinking about me all the time, and I don't know 59 00:02:57,881 --> 00:02:58,321 Speaker 2: what to do. 60 00:02:58,401 --> 00:03:02,321 Speaker 1: And yeah, I just sort of broke down crying, and he. 61 00:03:02,281 --> 00:03:03,841 Speaker 2: Said, well, now you know what you got to do 62 00:03:03,881 --> 00:03:06,720 Speaker 2: when you get out of here, you know, he said, 63 00:03:06,761 --> 00:03:08,641 Speaker 2: if you really mean what you say, then do the 64 00:03:08,721 --> 00:03:10,121 Speaker 2: right thing now. 65 00:03:10,960 --> 00:03:14,641 Speaker 1: It took me quite a while to figure that out. 66 00:03:14,680 --> 00:03:17,561 Speaker 2: It was still a couple of years before I figured 67 00:03:17,561 --> 00:03:20,321 Speaker 2: out what I needed to do, But that was probably 68 00:03:20,321 --> 00:03:23,160 Speaker 2: one of the more vulnerable moments. And then the other 69 00:03:23,240 --> 00:03:29,761 Speaker 2: one I was at the Henderson unit and this counselor said, 70 00:03:29,960 --> 00:03:30,961 Speaker 2: do you guys know where. 71 00:03:30,761 --> 00:03:34,041 Speaker 1: I was before this group? And she goes, we go where? 72 00:03:34,520 --> 00:03:36,881 Speaker 2: And she said, I just went and had to deliver 73 00:03:37,001 --> 00:03:40,401 Speaker 2: the news to somebody that their baby just passed away. 74 00:03:40,961 --> 00:03:44,801 Speaker 2: And I just sat there and yeah, in front of everybody, 75 00:03:44,801 --> 00:03:46,641 Speaker 2: and I broke down crying, and they were like, Okay, 76 00:03:46,681 --> 00:03:48,561 Speaker 2: what's going on? And I said, I just sat there 77 00:03:48,601 --> 00:03:51,481 Speaker 2: crying and in front of everybody. So there's one hundred 78 00:03:51,521 --> 00:03:53,961 Speaker 2: and fifty guys staring at me, and they were like, 79 00:03:54,641 --> 00:03:55,721 Speaker 2: you need to go to the bathroom. 80 00:03:55,721 --> 00:03:56,801 Speaker 1: You need to excuse yourself. 81 00:03:56,801 --> 00:03:58,041 Speaker 2: And I said yeah, So I got up and I 82 00:03:58,041 --> 00:03:59,921 Speaker 2: walked away, and they said, what's wrong to go? 83 00:03:59,961 --> 00:04:00,121 Speaker 1: Man? 84 00:04:00,121 --> 00:04:03,121 Speaker 2: Can you imagine my son's out there right now? What 85 00:04:03,161 --> 00:04:04,121 Speaker 2: if that had been him? 86 00:04:04,521 --> 00:04:07,521 Speaker 1: What if that was me? Like, I'm in here because 87 00:04:07,601 --> 00:04:10,241 Speaker 1: I'm a bad father. I'm in here because I'm a 88 00:04:10,281 --> 00:04:14,121 Speaker 1: bad person. And I mean, nobody. 89 00:04:13,721 --> 00:04:15,641 Speaker 2: Really wanted to hear that, because a lot of them 90 00:04:15,681 --> 00:04:17,761 Speaker 2: had kids too, and they were in the same position. 91 00:04:17,961 --> 00:04:20,681 Speaker 1: But it just really struck me. And that was one 92 00:04:20,721 --> 00:04:21,601 Speaker 1: of the very few. 93 00:04:21,440 --> 00:04:24,880 Speaker 2: Times I cried publicly while I was locked up, you know, 94 00:04:25,001 --> 00:04:27,921 Speaker 2: because I felt so bad. I didn't know the guy 95 00:04:27,961 --> 00:04:30,561 Speaker 2: that she was even talking about. I had no idea 96 00:04:30,681 --> 00:04:34,601 Speaker 2: who he was. I had never met him, but I 97 00:04:34,721 --> 00:04:37,361 Speaker 2: felt for him in that moment. I felt for his 98 00:04:37,561 --> 00:04:42,481 Speaker 2: child and my own child. So yeah, those were probably 99 00:04:42,521 --> 00:04:44,961 Speaker 2: the top two most vulnerable moments I had. 100 00:04:45,440 --> 00:04:48,041 Speaker 3: It's heartbreaking. That really heats time, doesn't it. 101 00:04:48,521 --> 00:04:50,601 Speaker 2: Yeah, And just to think about it, like, I have 102 00:04:50,721 --> 00:04:53,481 Speaker 2: this amazing kid who loves me so much. 103 00:04:53,521 --> 00:04:58,961 Speaker 1: He thinks I'm his hero, and I'm no hero. I'm 104 00:04:59,001 --> 00:05:02,601 Speaker 1: no son, you know, my son. And he. 105 00:05:04,281 --> 00:05:06,640 Speaker 2: Used to answer the door or wake up and go 106 00:05:07,440 --> 00:05:08,801 Speaker 2: Dad you're awake, or. 107 00:05:08,761 --> 00:05:11,721 Speaker 1: Dad, you're home. I missed you so much. 108 00:05:12,121 --> 00:05:16,160 Speaker 2: And I could be gone to the door for five minutes, 109 00:05:16,201 --> 00:05:17,641 Speaker 2: but as soon as I came back, he inswered the 110 00:05:17,681 --> 00:05:19,801 Speaker 2: door and he'd say. 111 00:05:19,601 --> 00:05:21,601 Speaker 1: Dad, you're home. I missed you. 112 00:05:22,320 --> 00:05:25,881 Speaker 3: And uh oh, wow, bro, take a moment. It's so 113 00:05:26,001 --> 00:05:29,080 Speaker 3: good man as a father, I'm feeling this right now, 114 00:05:29,121 --> 00:05:32,241 Speaker 3: and I can see it in your eyes and how 115 00:05:32,281 --> 00:05:36,760 Speaker 3: hard it is for you. And but just to think, 116 00:05:36,801 --> 00:05:40,161 Speaker 3: you know, he was never Dad was actually ever going 117 00:05:40,241 --> 00:05:42,001 Speaker 3: to walk back through that door is pretty well what 118 00:05:42,440 --> 00:05:45,481 Speaker 3: you know he's thinking he's is the last time so 119 00:05:46,201 --> 00:05:48,880 Speaker 3: the elation of you walking through that door every time, 120 00:05:49,681 --> 00:05:52,121 Speaker 3: would feel his heart full of joy and knowing that 121 00:05:52,201 --> 00:05:52,681 Speaker 3: Dad's here. 122 00:05:53,241 --> 00:05:55,121 Speaker 2: And what's worse is it got to a point where 123 00:05:55,561 --> 00:05:58,561 Speaker 2: later on, whenever I would leave, he would scream and 124 00:05:58,601 --> 00:06:01,080 Speaker 2: cry and say Dad, no, don't go, Please, don't go. 125 00:06:01,121 --> 00:06:03,481 Speaker 1: And I'd sit with him and I'd be like, I'll 126 00:06:03,521 --> 00:06:04,161 Speaker 1: be right back. 127 00:06:04,241 --> 00:06:07,001 Speaker 2: And sometimes I was right back, and sometimes I wasn't, 128 00:06:07,241 --> 00:06:13,001 Speaker 2: you know, and I just yeah, I broke his heart 129 00:06:13,081 --> 00:06:16,400 Speaker 2: so many times. This kid never did anything wrong to me, 130 00:06:16,561 --> 00:06:22,361 Speaker 2: was the sweetest, just most joyous, beautiful little thing. You know, 131 00:06:22,561 --> 00:06:25,041 Speaker 2: one of the best things I ever created. You know, 132 00:06:25,721 --> 00:06:28,760 Speaker 2: as an artist, I'm constantly creating things, but he's he's 133 00:06:28,801 --> 00:06:30,401 Speaker 2: one of my masterpieces, for sure. 134 00:06:30,401 --> 00:06:32,841 Speaker 1: He's in both my kids. I have two children now 135 00:06:32,880 --> 00:06:35,161 Speaker 1: there they are my masterpieces. 136 00:06:34,681 --> 00:06:37,961 Speaker 3: Beautiful and may I ask how old are your children? 137 00:06:38,001 --> 00:06:40,841 Speaker 3: And your son's obviously in his teens now is he 138 00:06:40,841 --> 00:06:41,561 Speaker 3: he's fourteen. 139 00:06:41,681 --> 00:06:44,440 Speaker 2: He's autistic and he has Type one diabetes, so he's 140 00:06:45,201 --> 00:06:46,280 Speaker 2: he's great. 141 00:06:46,401 --> 00:06:48,401 Speaker 1: He's uh, he's so full of. 142 00:06:49,440 --> 00:06:53,041 Speaker 3: This with the disability as well. She's born visioning paid 143 00:06:53,161 --> 00:06:55,921 Speaker 3: so I can relate to the you know, the joy 144 00:06:55,921 --> 00:06:58,401 Speaker 3: within your heart of what you're seeing. I bet he 145 00:06:58,440 --> 00:07:00,640 Speaker 3: never complains either. I bet he just gets on with 146 00:07:00,721 --> 00:07:01,361 Speaker 3: life and. 147 00:07:02,521 --> 00:07:05,961 Speaker 2: He has very what he complains to me or just 148 00:07:06,001 --> 00:07:09,161 Speaker 2: like they make me laugh because he's so happy that 149 00:07:09,241 --> 00:07:11,361 Speaker 2: his complaints are Like I think about him like, man, 150 00:07:11,401 --> 00:07:14,001 Speaker 2: I wish I could be, you know, upset about something 151 00:07:14,001 --> 00:07:17,001 Speaker 2: that's silly, like you know, and so happy about the 152 00:07:18,001 --> 00:07:21,441 Speaker 2: littlest things like it's so it makes me happy just 153 00:07:21,481 --> 00:07:24,961 Speaker 2: to see him so happy and right. But he's fourteen, 154 00:07:25,121 --> 00:07:27,081 Speaker 2: and then I have a ten month old, so I 155 00:07:27,081 --> 00:07:29,161 Speaker 2: have a very little one in a bigger one. 156 00:07:29,241 --> 00:07:32,241 Speaker 3: So you've been blessed, blessed with another opportunity to be 157 00:07:32,321 --> 00:07:33,161 Speaker 3: the best you can be. 158 00:07:34,081 --> 00:07:38,961 Speaker 2: Yeah, and it's it's it's been wonderful because my older son, 159 00:07:39,041 --> 00:07:41,321 Speaker 2: even though he's autistic, he helps me take care of 160 00:07:41,361 --> 00:07:45,280 Speaker 2: the little one, and he's so proud to be a brother. 161 00:07:45,441 --> 00:07:48,521 Speaker 2: You know, autistic children, you just never really know what 162 00:07:48,561 --> 00:07:51,281 Speaker 2: their emotions like, how they are, how they might be. 163 00:07:51,801 --> 00:07:55,201 Speaker 2: And they generally don't cry because they're emotional, you know 164 00:07:55,201 --> 00:07:59,921 Speaker 2: what I mean about happy things that is, they're very 165 00:07:59,961 --> 00:08:03,280 Speaker 2: strange about their emotions. But as soon as he walked 166 00:08:03,281 --> 00:08:06,280 Speaker 2: in the hospital door, when my my little boy was born. 167 00:08:06,761 --> 00:08:09,401 Speaker 1: He started crying. He goes, oh, look at the baby, 168 00:08:09,561 --> 00:08:12,241 Speaker 1: and he started crying. He goes, that's my brother, my brother. 169 00:08:12,361 --> 00:08:18,241 Speaker 2: He calls him, yeah, and it's great, yeah, wow. But 170 00:08:19,321 --> 00:08:22,841 Speaker 2: I got so used to breaking his heart and I 171 00:08:23,081 --> 00:08:25,961 Speaker 2: just that's kind of all. 172 00:08:26,041 --> 00:08:29,521 Speaker 1: It all happened all at once, you know. 173 00:08:30,321 --> 00:08:35,481 Speaker 2: After after my teens, in my early twenties, I started 174 00:08:35,521 --> 00:08:39,721 Speaker 2: having some success as a as a creative. I opened 175 00:08:39,761 --> 00:08:42,281 Speaker 2: a vintage clothing store and I was doing that. Then 176 00:08:42,281 --> 00:08:44,921 Speaker 2: I opened a recording studio with the producer of The Strokes. 177 00:08:45,521 --> 00:08:49,721 Speaker 2: But the small town popularity and fame sort of got 178 00:08:49,721 --> 00:08:52,361 Speaker 2: to my head pretty quick. And I was still abusing painkillers, 179 00:08:52,361 --> 00:08:54,441 Speaker 2: and I was drinking, and I was throwing raves and 180 00:08:54,561 --> 00:08:56,401 Speaker 2: parties and you know. 181 00:08:56,481 --> 00:08:57,801 Speaker 1: Making a name for myself. 182 00:08:57,841 --> 00:09:00,841 Speaker 2: And what ended up happening was I got a divorce 183 00:09:00,881 --> 00:09:04,041 Speaker 2: from my ex wife, I sold the clothing store and 184 00:09:04,081 --> 00:09:07,561 Speaker 2: the recording studio. Was just kind of going through the 185 00:09:07,601 --> 00:09:10,841 Speaker 2: motions and didn't know what I wanted to do. I 186 00:09:10,881 --> 00:09:13,601 Speaker 2: wanted to be a musician, but I didn't know how. 187 00:09:14,441 --> 00:09:17,521 Speaker 2: So a couple of years later, I got locked up 188 00:09:17,561 --> 00:09:19,441 Speaker 2: and I went to the Henderson Unit and I was there. 189 00:09:19,601 --> 00:09:22,081 Speaker 2: I was locked up a total of like almost a 190 00:09:22,161 --> 00:09:25,321 Speaker 2: year at that point, and I got out and I 191 00:09:25,441 --> 00:09:28,441 Speaker 2: just had this intense passion and this burning desire, this 192 00:09:28,561 --> 00:09:32,561 Speaker 2: drive to like make something of myself. So I started 193 00:09:32,561 --> 00:09:36,961 Speaker 2: writing music intensely, and I started recording, and I got 194 00:09:36,961 --> 00:09:40,921 Speaker 2: a record deal. And in the midst of the record deal, 195 00:09:41,161 --> 00:09:45,001 Speaker 2: I told myself that I wanted one of. 196 00:09:44,961 --> 00:09:46,841 Speaker 1: My heroes to produce my album. 197 00:09:47,081 --> 00:09:50,481 Speaker 2: So one of my heroes, I contacted him and I 198 00:09:50,561 --> 00:09:52,681 Speaker 2: ended up getting a hold of him and I asked him. 199 00:09:52,561 --> 00:09:53,521 Speaker 1: To produce this record. 200 00:09:53,601 --> 00:09:57,001 Speaker 2: Well, he was a heroin addict and I didn't know that, 201 00:09:58,041 --> 00:10:00,561 Speaker 2: but when we were recording, he got dope sick in 202 00:10:00,601 --> 00:10:02,161 Speaker 2: the studio and I immediately, you. 203 00:10:02,161 --> 00:10:04,481 Speaker 1: Spot it, you got it. I knew what was going on. 204 00:10:04,601 --> 00:10:06,921 Speaker 1: So it had been a little while at that point. 205 00:10:06,961 --> 00:10:12,401 Speaker 2: I was clean, and I immediately noticed he was sick, 206 00:10:12,401 --> 00:10:14,801 Speaker 2: and I said, well, in order for us to work, 207 00:10:14,841 --> 00:10:16,001 Speaker 2: I mean, I got to get this guy. 208 00:10:16,441 --> 00:10:18,441 Speaker 1: Well, I have to make sure he's okay. I have 209 00:10:18,521 --> 00:10:20,041 Speaker 1: to get him in ship shape. 210 00:10:20,041 --> 00:10:22,681 Speaker 2: So we went and I scored for him, and I 211 00:10:22,801 --> 00:10:28,121 Speaker 2: just I relapsed right there and I fell right back 212 00:10:28,161 --> 00:10:31,121 Speaker 2: into it, and then I started. He introduced me to meth, 213 00:10:31,281 --> 00:10:34,361 Speaker 2: and I started smoking meth very heavily. I was doing ice, 214 00:10:34,921 --> 00:10:38,201 Speaker 2: and the ice just wrecked and ruined me. I had, 215 00:10:38,721 --> 00:10:41,801 Speaker 2: you know, an addiction to opius for many, many years, 216 00:10:41,801 --> 00:10:44,401 Speaker 2: but was always able to hold myself together. When I 217 00:10:44,481 --> 00:10:49,921 Speaker 2: started doing meth, everything fell apart, like just almost like overnight. 218 00:10:50,001 --> 00:10:54,321 Speaker 2: I was robbed, I was held hostage. Once I was 219 00:10:55,001 --> 00:10:58,521 Speaker 2: you know, I was never sleeping on the streets, but 220 00:10:58,561 --> 00:11:00,361 Speaker 2: I was homeless. I was living in and out of 221 00:11:00,401 --> 00:11:04,321 Speaker 2: motels and hotels and on people's couches, and you know, 222 00:11:04,401 --> 00:11:07,601 Speaker 2: I'd shack up with women sometimes and stay with them. 223 00:11:07,681 --> 00:11:13,201 Speaker 2: I I slept with well, I was staying with prostitutes, 224 00:11:13,521 --> 00:11:15,481 Speaker 2: you know, because they always had hotel rooms. 225 00:11:15,561 --> 00:11:16,321 Speaker 1: Yeah. 226 00:11:15,841 --> 00:11:18,921 Speaker 2: Uh and and they were they were sort of empathetic 227 00:11:18,921 --> 00:11:19,921 Speaker 2: to my needs. 228 00:11:20,121 --> 00:11:23,041 Speaker 1: And uh yeah, it just it was It was wild. 229 00:11:23,121 --> 00:11:31,881 Speaker 1: It was crazy.