WEBVTT - Read This: Robert Dessaix Is a Fox (Not a Hedgehog)

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<v Speaker 1>Hello there, It's Ruby Jones and I'm back to share

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<v Speaker 1>another episode of Read This, Schwartz Media's weekly books podcast,

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<v Speaker 1>hosted by editor of the Monthly Michael Williams. It features

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<v Speaker 1>conversations with some of the most talented writers from Australia

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<v Speaker 1>and around the world. In this episode, Michael sits down

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<v Speaker 1>for a chat with Australian author Robert de Sai to

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<v Speaker 1>discuss his latest book, Chameleon as Usual. I'm joined by

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<v Speaker 1>Michael to tell me a little bit more about the episode. Hi, Michael,

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<v Speaker 1>Ruby Jones. Hello, So Michael, tell me about Robert Desai.

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<v Speaker 1>Why listeners might be familiar with his work.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, listeners might know Desigh from He's had a storied

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<v Speaker 2>career at this point. He's been writing books and essays

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<v Speaker 2>for decades now. He spent about ten years as the

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<v Speaker 2>host of books and Writing on the ABC Radio National

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<v Speaker 2>and people might know him from there, but they might

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<v Speaker 2>also know his books like Corfu or Night Letters. He

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<v Speaker 2>writes these beautiful kind of literary travelogues where ages with

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<v Speaker 2>both his journeys and the stuff he's reading and the

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<v Speaker 2>art he's engaged with. He's funny and free wheeling and

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<v Speaker 2>a little bit peculiar, it has to be said, but

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<v Speaker 2>in ways that are deeply rewarding and so.

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<v Speaker 1>Given he has been in the public eye for so

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<v Speaker 1>long and has written memoirs and autobiographical essays for decades.

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<v Speaker 1>Why is his latest memoir called Chameleon?

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, Chameleon isn't the first memoir he's written. There's been

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<v Speaker 2>autobiographical strains to a lot of his work, and he

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<v Speaker 2>is someone who is kind of reproducing memoir and identity

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<v Speaker 2>in all kinds of different ways. The metaphor of the

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<v Speaker 2>chameleon in this book is a particularly acute one, though

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<v Speaker 2>he has a line where he says, I've never been

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<v Speaker 2>the man I seem to be. It's a memoir that

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<v Speaker 2>takes in his adoption and is in a way a

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<v Speaker 2>dialogue between Robert de Sai in his eighties and the

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<v Speaker 2>little boy who came to kind of build an identity,

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<v Speaker 2>build a sense of self many many decks decades ago.

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<v Speaker 2>And the interplay between those two is really lovely. He's interesting,

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<v Speaker 2>he's thoughtful, and he's very generous in personal detail. It's

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<v Speaker 2>a great chat.

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<v Speaker 1>Coming up in just a moment. Robert Desaig is a fox,

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<v Speaker 1>not a hedgehog.

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<v Speaker 2>I think maybe the best most logical place for us

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<v Speaker 2>to begin is with memory. Are you a man who

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<v Speaker 2>has a good memory?

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<v Speaker 3>Generally, I have a memory for certain kinds of things

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<v Speaker 3>that come out of me, like those small penance that

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<v Speaker 3>a magician pulls out of a hat. One pulls the

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<v Speaker 3>next one, which pulls the next one, which pulls the

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<v Speaker 3>next one. That's how it works for me. I remember

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<v Speaker 3>certain things. I remember faces very well. I just had

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<v Speaker 3>a visitor here with whom I went to Tunis and

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<v Speaker 3>went to India years and years ago, and he was

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<v Speaker 3>amazed at the way I could remember smells, the way

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<v Speaker 3>that I could remember the music that we heard, the

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<v Speaker 3>way that I could remember the colors that we saw.

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<v Speaker 3>Other things seem to just disappear. I don't seem to

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<v Speaker 3>recall well at all. But memory is it important to me.

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<v Speaker 3>I know that it's a kind of zeitgeisty word. It's

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<v Speaker 3>a word that is popular with people at the moment.

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<v Speaker 3>Memory memoir. I don't think it's my strong point. My

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<v Speaker 3>strong point is to a certain extent, I think making

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<v Speaker 3>up memories, inventing memories.

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<v Speaker 2>It's interesting to me that you don't think it's a

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<v Speaker 2>strong point. When if I think about your body of work,

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<v Speaker 2>the evocation of moments, of sensations, of relationships, of putting

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<v Speaker 2>words to the of one's past. You're the poet laureate

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<v Speaker 2>of that skill set.

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<v Speaker 3>Well, thank you, Michael. I mean, I think I'm good

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<v Speaker 3>at that. I'm good at the moment. I'm good at

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<v Speaker 3>finding the right English word for the moment, but I'm

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<v Speaker 3>not sure that I'm good at looking at the big picture. Really,

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<v Speaker 3>I have to leave it to the reader to do that.

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<v Speaker 3>I decided that it's the reader's responsibility to take further

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<v Speaker 3>and let it in her mind or his mind. It's

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<v Speaker 3>usually her mind, of course, in my case, come up

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<v Speaker 3>with other images, other smells, other sounds. I think, so

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<v Speaker 3>long as I can trigger that, I'm happy.

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<v Speaker 2>So to what extent is chameleon a process of following

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<v Speaker 2>the pulling out of each of those magicians handkerchiefs and

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<v Speaker 2>seeing where it takes you. And to what extent is

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<v Speaker 2>it a directed task of writing? You had an end insight,

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<v Speaker 2>and you were writing towards that end.

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<v Speaker 3>I didn't have an end insight. You know. I wondered

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<v Speaker 3>why anyone will be interested. I'm sure a lot of

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<v Speaker 3>writers think this to themselves. Why would anyone want to

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<v Speaker 3>know this. I love language, I love literature. Are you

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<v Speaker 3>allowed to use such an old fashioned word on this program?

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<v Speaker 3>This is a literary what would you call it? Concoction? Really,

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<v Speaker 3>that's the joy of it. Nobody wants to know about

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<v Speaker 3>my religious beliefs or the first time I was attracted

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<v Speaker 3>to this man or this woman. What they want is

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<v Speaker 3>the words I think they want to float on, the

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<v Speaker 3>language that they think I might come up with. That's

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<v Speaker 3>the only thing I can do. The actual memory itself

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<v Speaker 3>is not so important. It's the language for me. It's

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<v Speaker 3>my all. Really.

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<v Speaker 2>One of the adjectives at being kind to apply to

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<v Speaker 2>the process of reading your works. It is about the

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<v Speaker 2>joy and pleasure in the sentence, in the paragraph, in

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<v Speaker 2>the page, and as a reader, pleasure and joy in

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<v Speaker 2>language and the kind of the great luxury that is

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<v Speaker 2>wallowing around in the articulation of senses and ideas and things.

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<v Speaker 2>That's that's where I want my reading to be. And

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<v Speaker 2>you're a man who delivers that in spades.

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<v Speaker 3>Well, I'm pleased about that. It's what I asked myself. Also,

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<v Speaker 3>is this going to deliver pleasure? Is this going to

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<v Speaker 3>light a fire? I know that's not all for cliche,

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<v Speaker 3>but is it going to light a fire in me?

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<v Speaker 3>I want this book to make me feel more alive,

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<v Speaker 3>not just inform me. When I was young, I was

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<v Speaker 3>very interested in being right. It was very important to

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<v Speaker 3>me to be right about this, about that, about politics,

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<v Speaker 3>about the Soviet Union, about whatever it might be, about

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<v Speaker 3>the existence of God for that matter. Now I'm not

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<v Speaker 3>so interested at the age I am, I'm really more

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<v Speaker 3>interested in being happy, as I think this book tries

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<v Speaker 3>to explain, and not only this book, really being happy.

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<v Speaker 3>It's a very small English word. It's an overused English word.

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<v Speaker 3>It's a word that all sorts of writers have written about.

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<v Speaker 3>This is the important word to me. What makes me happy?

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<v Speaker 3>Something makes me happy. I want to write about it.

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<v Speaker 3>Something made me happy about talking to my earlier self,

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<v Speaker 3>myself that always wanted to be right, not just happy.

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<v Speaker 3>So I wrote this book. It didn't come easily at first,

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<v Speaker 3>and then it just came because I take more joy

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<v Speaker 3>in life now, at the age I'm at than I

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<v Speaker 3>did when I was forty or thirty, or eighteen or nine.

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<v Speaker 3>I just do. I mean, day after day is a joy.

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<v Speaker 2>I do think that that journey from rightness to happiness

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<v Speaker 2>is evident through your work that increasingly that question about

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<v Speaker 2>what it is to live a good life, what it

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<v Speaker 2>is to age well, what it is to have friendships

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<v Speaker 2>of integrity, what it is to kind of be in

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<v Speaker 2>the world comes through again and again. You mentioned in

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<v Speaker 2>that answer the decision to write to your younger self,

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<v Speaker 2>and in particular a younger self under the name of

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<v Speaker 2>Thomas Robert Jones, tell us about the kind of young

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<v Speaker 2>man Thomas Robert Jones was, and what it felt like

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<v Speaker 2>to commune with him.

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<v Speaker 3>Again, there are pictures of him actually in the first

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<v Speaker 3>non academic book that I ever wrote, and this friend

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<v Speaker 3>yesterday was looking at the book and he said, you know,

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<v Speaker 3>these photographs interesting because they make you look Egyptian, which

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<v Speaker 3>is what my adoptive father thought, being a theosophist of sorts,

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<v Speaker 3>that I might have been in a previous life, an Egyptian,

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<v Speaker 3>possibly a Pakistani. I just always think I looked a

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<v Speaker 3>bit Pakistani. When I was young, I was mostly interested

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<v Speaker 3>as a hedgehog. That's what I was in those days,

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<v Speaker 3>in keeping my eyes fixed on the goal. That's what

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<v Speaker 3>I was interested in, in amassing knowledge. Now, of course,

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<v Speaker 3>I am not really a hedgehog. I'm a fox. I

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<v Speaker 3>doubt about all over the place. I fall in holes

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<v Speaker 3>and I scratch myself. I don't get anywhere, really, I

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<v Speaker 3>just enjoy being a fox and being in the world

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<v Speaker 3>and looking at everything and thinking things through a new

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<v Speaker 3>I suppose the adverb anew is important to me. I

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<v Speaker 3>don't know that we learn much that is really new

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<v Speaker 3>in a lifetime. But one looks at things a new.

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<v Speaker 3>And so I look at the world and you. I

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<v Speaker 3>look at sex and you. I look at religion and you.

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<v Speaker 3>I look at self and you. I look at home

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<v Speaker 3>and you. I look at beauty and you. I've known

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<v Speaker 3>about all these things, but the joy about being older

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<v Speaker 3>is that one can look at them a new. Every

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<v Speaker 3>conversation about these things that I have changes my point

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<v Speaker 3>of view, and I see things and new. They are

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<v Speaker 3>not new, but I look at them in you.

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<v Speaker 2>You say that like that might be an inevitable part

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<v Speaker 2>of the human condition. But for a lot of people,

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<v Speaker 2>the older they get, the less capable of that idea

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<v Speaker 2>of a new. They become their orthodoxes harden, their perceptions

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<v Speaker 2>get locked in. They're they're less inclined to read, visit

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<v Speaker 2>old certainties and question them. To be a champion of

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<v Speaker 2>seeing things in you is quite a remarkable and open

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<v Speaker 2>way of being in the world. You don't see that

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<v Speaker 2>as a singular thing in particular to.

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<v Speaker 3>You, no, I mean I don't think about it very much.

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<v Speaker 3>The first name that I had for this book was

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<v Speaker 3>the Balancing Act. I mean, it's a boring name, of course,

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<v Speaker 3>but this book is about balancing, and gradually I come

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<v Speaker 3>to I suppose a way of looking at life towards

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<v Speaker 3>the end, which is balancing on quite a narrow rope,

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<v Speaker 3>not falling to the right or to the left, but balancing.

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<v Speaker 3>And that's what I do. And what I think in

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<v Speaker 3>the morning is different from what I think in the afternoon.

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<v Speaker 3>I don't know if that's common or not. It's the

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<v Speaker 3>way I have come to live, and I think the

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<v Speaker 3>create way. I don't see any point in being alive.

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<v Speaker 3>I'm a privileged person. I'm a middle class person, so

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<v Speaker 3>I can make these choices, but I don't really see

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<v Speaker 3>much point in being alive if I am not creative.

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<v Speaker 3>You can be creative in all sorts of ways, but

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<v Speaker 3>I can only be creative with words. That's the only

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<v Speaker 3>way I am able to do this. I can't really

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<v Speaker 3>be very creative in the garden, or in driving a car,

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<v Speaker 3>or bringing up children, or in painting paintings. Of course

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<v Speaker 3>I am with words. And if you want to be creative,

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<v Speaker 3>you must not see the world in one way. Everything

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<v Speaker 3>must be a dialogue or a polyphonous cacophony that you

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<v Speaker 3>move in and out of. This is the key to

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<v Speaker 3>creativity from my point of view, and this is what

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<v Speaker 3>impels me to write. This is what impels me to

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<v Speaker 3>open my mouth and say a new word.

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<v Speaker 2>After the break, Robert explains why the word tango is

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<v Speaker 2>so important to him and reveals the one thing that,

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<v Speaker 2>by his reckoning, Americans can do better than anyone else.

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<v Speaker 2>If Thomas Robert Jones was a hedgehog, what's the moment

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<v Speaker 2>when that creative imperative took over, when you were able

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<v Speaker 2>to break free and play hardly?

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<v Speaker 3>Was when my wife left me? I think, and I

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<v Speaker 3>disagree with the Pope on this question. I think there

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<v Speaker 3>should be more divorced in the world. People should say

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<v Speaker 3>thank you, it's been special and move on, is what

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<v Speaker 3>my wife said. And I was distraught for some years,

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<v Speaker 3>but she was right. It had been special. It was

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<v Speaker 3>time to move on. It opened me up because I

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<v Speaker 3>didn't have to be anyone for anyone. When I was married,

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<v Speaker 3>I had to be a husband. Ultimately, I don't want

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<v Speaker 3>to be a husband. I want to be a man

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<v Speaker 3>who wears many costumes. So I want to be Harlequin.

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<v Speaker 3>I don't want to be Piero, and the book is

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<v Speaker 3>partly about that. I want to be many colors, and

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<v Speaker 3>I want to be like a chameleon of whatever color

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<v Speaker 3>makes this moment work. I think I had to divorce

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<v Speaker 3>before I could do that. I really do. And I

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<v Speaker 3>think going to Morocco earlier on, long before I even

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<v Speaker 3>got married. So the seed of what I could be

0:14:56.600 --> 0:15:02.640
<v Speaker 3>if I lived a gay life. I suppose to use

0:15:02.680 --> 0:15:08.560
<v Speaker 3>a very simple modern word, something that is closer to

0:15:09.560 --> 0:15:12.880
<v Speaker 3>the core of my being. I don't really believe in

0:15:13.000 --> 0:15:17.200
<v Speaker 3>corese of being, but I can't think of another English

0:15:17.240 --> 0:15:21.480
<v Speaker 3>expression except core of my being. Maybe me stuck with

0:15:21.520 --> 0:15:24.280
<v Speaker 3>these words. I sometimes find myself using the word soul.

0:15:24.640 --> 0:15:28.320
<v Speaker 3>I don't believe in souls, but it's a fabulous word.

0:15:29.560 --> 0:15:31.240
<v Speaker 3>What can I do? I use it.

0:15:33.200 --> 0:15:37.880
<v Speaker 2>If I had to think of a word capturing some

0:15:37.960 --> 0:15:40.800
<v Speaker 2>of these ideas, some of these energies that I would

0:15:40.840 --> 0:15:43.880
<v Speaker 2>think of as synonymous with you and your work. It

0:15:43.920 --> 0:15:47.400
<v Speaker 2>would be dance, and it would be dancing that the

0:15:47.480 --> 0:15:50.920
<v Speaker 2>dance of ideas, the dance of feeling living life as

0:15:50.920 --> 0:15:53.560
<v Speaker 2>a dance seems to me to be something that you

0:15:53.720 --> 0:15:57.280
<v Speaker 2>have articulated better than anyone else I can think of.

0:15:57.600 --> 0:16:03.200
<v Speaker 3>When you've just made me happy, the word tango is

0:16:03.240 --> 0:16:06.320
<v Speaker 3>the really important word for me. I'm hopeless at the tango.

0:16:06.360 --> 0:16:09.920
<v Speaker 3>I've tried to learn to tango. It is too difficult.

0:16:09.920 --> 0:16:13.040
<v Speaker 3>But what is good about the tango is that it's playful,

0:16:13.880 --> 0:16:17.000
<v Speaker 3>but it's also disciplined. There are a few dances which

0:16:17.040 --> 0:16:19.560
<v Speaker 3>are playful and disciplined at the same time at the

0:16:19.600 --> 0:16:23.560
<v Speaker 3>same instant as tango is. You have to sort of

0:16:23.600 --> 0:16:26.440
<v Speaker 3>do the tango to kind of realize quite how disciplined

0:16:26.520 --> 0:16:29.080
<v Speaker 3>and quite how playful it is. It's erotic, of course,

0:16:30.080 --> 0:16:34.160
<v Speaker 3>it's beautiful. Everyone is beautiful when they do the tang.

0:16:35.080 --> 0:16:38.320
<v Speaker 3>Your clothes become beautiful, your shoes become beautiful, your corfeel

0:16:38.360 --> 0:16:44.120
<v Speaker 3>becomes beautiful. Everything is fabulous. But at the same time,

0:16:45.120 --> 0:16:47.400
<v Speaker 3>it is strict. You cannot make a mistake or you

0:16:47.440 --> 0:16:52.480
<v Speaker 3>could practically stamp your partner to death. Tango is the

0:16:52.560 --> 0:16:59.280
<v Speaker 3>important word, and it explains a lot about me, and

0:17:00.000 --> 0:17:03.600
<v Speaker 3>e blains a lot about what I value in life.

0:17:03.880 --> 0:17:07.240
<v Speaker 3>The dance. Unfortunately, at a certain point in your life,

0:17:08.040 --> 0:17:13.520
<v Speaker 3>dancing becomes a little difficult, physically difficult. I don't do

0:17:13.640 --> 0:17:17.560
<v Speaker 3>it anymore. But I used to go to dancing classes

0:17:18.280 --> 0:17:22.520
<v Speaker 3>and they gave me a pleasure that was so great,

0:17:22.640 --> 0:17:27.080
<v Speaker 3>so intense, so penetrating, that I couldn't sleep when I

0:17:27.160 --> 0:17:30.560
<v Speaker 3>came home. And this went on for years. My whole

0:17:30.600 --> 0:17:36.480
<v Speaker 3>body was thrilled to have had the evening I just had.

0:17:36.760 --> 0:17:40.840
<v Speaker 3>It's partly why I enjoy American musicals. I'm not feeling

0:17:40.960 --> 0:17:45.120
<v Speaker 3>very how should we say warmly towards the United States

0:17:45.160 --> 0:17:46.959
<v Speaker 3>America at the moment, because I grew up in the

0:17:46.960 --> 0:17:50.479
<v Speaker 3>Doris Day era, when America was somewhere we all wanted,

0:17:50.640 --> 0:17:54.679
<v Speaker 3>ultimately I think to be now, I never want to

0:17:54.720 --> 0:17:57.600
<v Speaker 3>go there again. But what Americans do that no one

0:17:57.640 --> 0:17:59.879
<v Speaker 3>else in the world can do. Nobody can do them,

0:18:00.119 --> 0:18:05.280
<v Speaker 3>Checks can't do the Bolivians can't do it is write musicals.

0:18:05.560 --> 0:18:09.000
<v Speaker 3>Why do we love musicals because they take over your

0:18:09.000 --> 0:18:13.000
<v Speaker 3>whole body in a way that opera simply doesn't. I

0:18:13.040 --> 0:18:18.400
<v Speaker 3>was watching some Mozart last night. It's dull compared to Oklahoma.

0:18:19.359 --> 0:18:26.080
<v Speaker 3>Oklahoma and even South Pacific just have something that Don

0:18:26.119 --> 0:18:30.400
<v Speaker 3>Giovanni doesn't have. There's a total involvement of every part

0:18:30.400 --> 0:18:34.560
<v Speaker 3>of the body and the mind, and the joy is ineffable.

0:18:35.200 --> 0:18:39.560
<v Speaker 2>And like you're comparing Mozart to Oklahoma, I want Salzburg

0:18:39.640 --> 0:18:45.320
<v Speaker 2>with a fringe on top. It would be the way through.

0:18:46.720 --> 0:18:49.600
<v Speaker 2>I read in an old interview with you that you

0:18:49.720 --> 0:18:52.080
<v Speaker 2>said at one point that you thought, in many ways

0:18:52.760 --> 0:18:56.359
<v Speaker 2>you were a nineteenth century man. Do you do you

0:18:56.400 --> 0:18:57.320
<v Speaker 2>still stand by that.

0:18:58.359 --> 0:19:05.119
<v Speaker 3>I think I am really a nineteenth century man because

0:19:06.080 --> 0:19:12.760
<v Speaker 3>I'm a humanist in a very Turgenevan way. It was Turgenev,

0:19:12.800 --> 0:19:19.320
<v Speaker 3>the Russian writer Ivan Turgenev, the author of well six

0:19:19.440 --> 0:19:24.119
<v Speaker 3>important novels I suppose in Russian literature, particularly Fathers and Sounds,

0:19:24.160 --> 0:19:27.080
<v Speaker 3>that will be the best known translation in English. Was

0:19:27.160 --> 0:19:29.800
<v Speaker 3>Ivan Turgenev that I wrote my doctorate on. I spent

0:19:29.880 --> 0:19:35.639
<v Speaker 3>several years on Tourghenev. He was the civilized nineteenth century man.

0:19:36.600 --> 0:19:38.879
<v Speaker 3>He was Russian, but he was also German, he was

0:19:38.920 --> 0:19:43.520
<v Speaker 3>also French. I'm not German, but I am Russian, I

0:19:43.560 --> 0:19:49.560
<v Speaker 3>am French, I am English in my mind because Turgenev

0:19:50.320 --> 0:19:53.320
<v Speaker 3>was such an important part of my life at a

0:19:53.359 --> 0:19:56.920
<v Speaker 3>formative time when I was in my twenties. I think

0:19:57.440 --> 0:20:03.480
<v Speaker 3>that that kind of humanist relationship that he had with

0:20:03.720 --> 0:20:07.280
<v Speaker 3>other people, that his characters have with each other, a

0:20:07.400 --> 0:20:11.520
<v Speaker 3>love of the human in the other, is something I

0:20:11.600 --> 0:20:16.400
<v Speaker 3>still aspired to. I think that humanism is probably not

0:20:16.440 --> 0:20:19.959
<v Speaker 3>something that people appreciate so much these days, but I

0:20:20.000 --> 0:20:23.560
<v Speaker 3>can't help it. I feel that I should have started

0:20:23.640 --> 0:20:27.240
<v Speaker 3>loving the human earlier in my life. I tried to

0:20:27.280 --> 0:20:31.560
<v Speaker 3>overcome it. I'm not trying anymore to overcome it. I'm

0:20:31.560 --> 0:20:37.080
<v Speaker 3>trying to appreciate it and to go back to being

0:20:37.160 --> 0:20:41.480
<v Speaker 3>more fully human than I was when I was young,

0:20:41.880 --> 0:20:47.080
<v Speaker 3>and it's the nineteenth century which teaches me to do that.

0:20:48.119 --> 0:20:53.320
<v Speaker 2>Coming back to the idea of the balancing act that typewrote,

0:20:53.400 --> 0:20:57.840
<v Speaker 2>walk that Chameleon represents in many ways, there was it

0:20:57.840 --> 0:21:00.879
<v Speaker 2>did strike me at one point. You make the observation

0:21:01.040 --> 0:21:04.840
<v Speaker 2>that you say, you're talking about your friend and you

0:21:04.880 --> 0:21:07.920
<v Speaker 2>point out that he's at ease in the world, and

0:21:07.960 --> 0:21:11.360
<v Speaker 2>you find yourself jealous at that that you're not at

0:21:11.400 --> 0:21:13.760
<v Speaker 2>ease in the world. You come across as someone at

0:21:13.760 --> 0:21:15.560
<v Speaker 2>ease in the world, and I'm curious that you feel

0:21:15.560 --> 0:21:17.800
<v Speaker 2>that you're not on my own person.

0:21:17.840 --> 0:21:20.359
<v Speaker 3>Man, I'm not at ease in the world, but I

0:21:20.400 --> 0:21:22.840
<v Speaker 3>am envious. I suppose it's the word, not jealous, but

0:21:23.000 --> 0:21:25.520
<v Speaker 3>envious of those who are The character you're talking about

0:21:25.560 --> 0:21:30.200
<v Speaker 3>is Niall, who is the other important character in the book.

0:21:31.640 --> 0:21:37.200
<v Speaker 3>He is an aspect of me. He is my bossier aspect,

0:21:37.320 --> 0:21:40.120
<v Speaker 3>and I have a bossy side to me, a sort

0:21:40.160 --> 0:21:44.880
<v Speaker 3>of finger wagging side. But he's made up. I made

0:21:44.960 --> 0:21:48.040
<v Speaker 3>him up. And then I went to Ireland a couple

0:21:48.119 --> 0:21:50.280
<v Speaker 3>of years ago. I'd never been in Ireland. I never

0:21:50.320 --> 0:21:52.639
<v Speaker 3>wanted to go to Ireland because I thought it was

0:21:52.760 --> 0:21:56.080
<v Speaker 3>priest ridden and i'd read so much John Banville. I

0:21:56.160 --> 0:21:59.600
<v Speaker 3>went that I really liked Ireland, I really like Dublin,

0:22:00.840 --> 0:22:03.560
<v Speaker 3>loved Cork, and I thought, I'm going to go home

0:22:03.840 --> 0:22:06.359
<v Speaker 3>and I'm going to rewrite Nile and make him a

0:22:06.359 --> 0:22:10.240
<v Speaker 3>bit more irish, a bit more argumentative, a bit more

0:22:10.560 --> 0:22:14.760
<v Speaker 3>uh self assured, but a bit more at ease with

0:22:14.920 --> 0:22:20.879
<v Speaker 3>himself in the world, because I realize, still, despite this

0:22:20.960 --> 0:22:23.440
<v Speaker 3>book that you've just read, despite everything that I've done,

0:22:24.240 --> 0:22:28.879
<v Speaker 3>I realize that I am not the kind of man

0:22:29.920 --> 0:22:35.000
<v Speaker 3>that the world admires. I'm just not. I don't know

0:22:35.000 --> 0:22:38.399
<v Speaker 3>if they still admire Robert Mitcham and Tapehunter and the

0:22:38.520 --> 0:22:44.320
<v Speaker 3>other actors who strutted across the screen when I was young,

0:22:45.200 --> 0:22:48.879
<v Speaker 3>and who don't now. It's a much more sort of

0:22:49.320 --> 0:22:53.119
<v Speaker 3>David Bowie era. I suppose that I've lived on into

0:22:53.400 --> 0:22:56.560
<v Speaker 3>but I still do not feel that I am acceptable.

0:22:57.960 --> 0:23:01.640
<v Speaker 3>I throw my hands around too much, I talk too much,

0:23:02.600 --> 0:23:09.320
<v Speaker 3>I move my body too much, I speak a little

0:23:09.480 --> 0:23:14.680
<v Speaker 3>too carefully, and I know that that's not completely acceptable

0:23:14.680 --> 0:23:19.399
<v Speaker 3>to everyone. And so I'm not at ease, but I

0:23:19.440 --> 0:23:25.200
<v Speaker 3>can't do anything about it. It's who I am. I'm

0:23:25.280 --> 0:23:30.879
<v Speaker 3>stuck with it. Self Assured is a different matter. I

0:23:30.920 --> 0:23:36.880
<v Speaker 3>am assured. I suppose that my life has been a

0:23:36.880 --> 0:23:41.280
<v Speaker 3>good one, but I'm not at ease in the world.

0:23:41.400 --> 0:23:42.440
<v Speaker 3>That's the important thing.

0:23:44.240 --> 0:23:48.080
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, that distinction seems important. That one can be not

0:23:48.200 --> 0:23:51.560
<v Speaker 2>at ease in the world, but in a different way,

0:23:51.600 --> 0:23:56.360
<v Speaker 2>at ease in themselves, that they identify both their advantages

0:23:56.400 --> 0:23:59.399
<v Speaker 2>and their limitations. One of the things that I so

0:24:00.160 --> 0:24:02.800
<v Speaker 2>about Chameleon that I think comes through whether you're having

0:24:03.480 --> 0:24:09.600
<v Speaker 2>conversations with imagine selves or previous selves, or I think

0:24:09.600 --> 0:24:11.800
<v Speaker 2>you touched on it when you talked about what the

0:24:11.880 --> 0:24:16.480
<v Speaker 2>experience of being adopted meant for Thomas Robert Jones. But

0:24:16.880 --> 0:24:22.679
<v Speaker 2>is that you are a writer who and a person

0:24:22.720 --> 0:24:25.520
<v Speaker 2>it seems to me who is singularly open to the

0:24:25.560 --> 0:24:30.360
<v Speaker 2>idea of possibility? Does the question of possibility, the possibility

0:24:30.440 --> 0:24:35.159
<v Speaker 2>of world's lived languages, learned places, travel to is that

0:24:35.320 --> 0:24:38.879
<v Speaker 2>something that has driven you in your life and continues

0:24:38.920 --> 0:24:39.439
<v Speaker 2>to drive you.

0:24:39.760 --> 0:24:43.280
<v Speaker 3>It's why I leave home, It's why I travel, It's

0:24:43.320 --> 0:24:45.520
<v Speaker 3>why I go to India, It's why I go to

0:24:46.240 --> 0:24:49.760
<v Speaker 3>Austria or wherever else I might go. I don't go

0:24:50.119 --> 0:24:54.080
<v Speaker 3>to Austria in order to look at Saint Stephen's Cathedral

0:24:54.200 --> 0:24:56.679
<v Speaker 3>or go to the opera. I go to see what

0:24:56.840 --> 0:25:02.880
<v Speaker 3>is possible in Austria because it's probably not possible in Hobart.

0:25:04.720 --> 0:25:08.399
<v Speaker 3>And that word is a key word to me in

0:25:08.520 --> 0:25:11.640
<v Speaker 3>motivating me to leave home, to open the front door,

0:25:11.720 --> 0:25:14.639
<v Speaker 3>go down the steps and go to the airport and

0:25:14.720 --> 0:25:21.959
<v Speaker 3>get out, to open up possibilities, not probabilities, but possibilities.

0:25:22.520 --> 0:25:23.720
<v Speaker 3>It's the most wonderful word.

0:25:25.720 --> 0:25:30.480
<v Speaker 2>Well, Chameleon made me feel alive to possibility and also

0:25:30.600 --> 0:25:33.040
<v Speaker 2>made me feel a deep sense of joy with the

0:25:33.040 --> 0:25:35.480
<v Speaker 2>words on the page. And I'm very grateful to you

0:25:35.560 --> 0:25:36.760
<v Speaker 2>for joining us today.

0:25:36.760 --> 0:25:40.160
<v Speaker 3>Grateful to you for your questions. Thank you very much.

0:25:43.200 --> 0:25:47.000
<v Speaker 2>Robert Dessi's latest novel, Chameleon, is available at all Good

0:25:47.000 --> 0:25:49.440
<v Speaker 2>bookstores now.

0:25:55.080 --> 0:25:57.760
<v Speaker 1>Thank you so much for listening to another special episode

0:25:57.840 --> 0:26:00.159
<v Speaker 1>of Read This. We'll have another episode of Reading This

0:26:00.280 --> 0:26:02.400
<v Speaker 1>to share with you next Sunday. See you then,