1 00:00:03,990 --> 00:00:06,540 Sean Aylmer: Welcome to the Fear and Greed daily interview. I'm Sean 2 00:00:06,540 --> 00:00:09,869 Sean Aylmer: Aylmer. When we talk about business in Australia, it's easy 3 00:00:09,869 --> 00:00:12,719 Sean Aylmer: to think immediately of BHP or the Commonwealth Bank, the 4 00:00:12,720 --> 00:00:15,420 Sean Aylmer: big guys on the (inaudible) , but the reality is 5 00:00:15,420 --> 00:00:20,579 Sean Aylmer: that family businesses actually represent almost 70% of all Australian 6 00:00:20,579 --> 00:00:23,790 Sean Aylmer: businesses, and while some of those are household names, think Visy or 7 00:00:24,239 --> 00:00:27,750 Sean Aylmer: Linfox, there are many, many more across the whole range 8 00:00:27,750 --> 00:00:32,879 Sean Aylmer: of sectors. Together, family businesses provide 55% of private sector 9 00:00:32,880 --> 00:00:37,019 Sean Aylmer: employment, and nearly 50% of total private sector wages paid. 10 00:00:37,290 --> 00:00:41,040 Sean Aylmer: Working with family can be challenging. It requires discipline and 11 00:00:41,040 --> 00:00:45,150 Sean Aylmer: very clear roles and expectations, but when it works, it 12 00:00:45,150 --> 00:00:47,909 Sean Aylmer: can be very successful. My guest today is a great 13 00:00:47,909 --> 00:00:51,960 Sean Aylmer: example of that. 40 years ago, entrepreneur Richard Kuipers started 14 00:00:51,960 --> 00:00:55,500 Sean Aylmer: a removalist business from home, Two Men and a Truck, and 15 00:00:55,830 --> 00:00:59,310 Sean Aylmer: now turns over almost $ 20 million a year, employs 300 16 00:00:59,310 --> 00:01:02,670 Sean Aylmer: people, and is a true family business. Richard's daughter, Catherine, 17 00:01:02,910 --> 00:01:05,730 Sean Aylmer: is now the CEO. Richard has written a book called 18 00:01:05,850 --> 00:01:09,180 Sean Aylmer: Inside the Box: A Guide to Building a Family Business 19 00:01:09,360 --> 00:01:12,390 Sean Aylmer: for future generations. Richard, welcome to Fear and Greed. 20 00:01:12,569 --> 00:01:13,770 Richard Kuipers: Thank you for having me. 21 00:01:14,220 --> 00:01:16,440 Sean Aylmer: What terrific story. Now, I've got to say, I remember 22 00:01:16,440 --> 00:01:20,130 Sean Aylmer: when I moved to Sydney, and this is late '80s, 23 00:01:20,130 --> 00:01:23,009 Sean Aylmer: I'm going to say, and one of the first things 24 00:01:23,010 --> 00:01:26,040 Sean Aylmer: I remember back then was the name of your business. 25 00:01:26,040 --> 00:01:28,800 Sean Aylmer: I was moving into a place in the eastern suburbs 26 00:01:28,830 --> 00:01:32,190 Sean Aylmer: of Sydney, and the truck next to me, I wasn't 27 00:01:32,190 --> 00:01:34,170 Sean Aylmer: using you guys, but Two Men and a Truck turned 28 00:01:34,170 --> 00:01:36,630 Sean Aylmer: up, and I thought, " Wow, that is about as good 29 00:01:36,630 --> 00:01:38,970 Sean Aylmer: a name for a business as ever," because that's exactly 30 00:01:38,970 --> 00:01:39,569 Sean Aylmer: what it is. 31 00:01:39,900 --> 00:01:43,170 Richard Kuipers: Well, that's just because we started originally with two men. 32 00:01:43,470 --> 00:01:46,140 Richard Kuipers: Our neighbors son joined us, who was only about 14 33 00:01:46,140 --> 00:01:50,640 Richard Kuipers: or 15 at the time, and he helped out on the weekends, but 34 00:01:50,640 --> 00:01:53,430 Richard Kuipers: as time went by, of course we had more people 35 00:01:53,430 --> 00:01:56,490 Richard Kuipers: on the truck, and we've got bigger trucks now, of 36 00:01:56,490 --> 00:01:59,400 Richard Kuipers: course, but when we moved from (inaudible) , I was 37 00:01:59,400 --> 00:02:01,080 Richard Kuipers: probably in the other truck. 38 00:02:02,880 --> 00:02:03,061 Sean Aylmer: Oh, is that right? 39 00:02:03,061 --> 00:02:04,002 Richard Kuipers: I was driving the truck myself (inaudible) . 40 00:02:05,610 --> 00:02:07,440 Sean Aylmer: Ah, and I had friend in (inaudible) who went 41 00:02:07,440 --> 00:02:09,690 Sean Aylmer: and did some work with you in the eastern suburbs 42 00:02:09,690 --> 00:02:12,240 Sean Aylmer: as well, so you never know, Richard, we may have 43 00:02:12,240 --> 00:02:17,520 Sean Aylmer: crossed paths some time ago. So you started this yourself. 44 00:02:17,850 --> 00:02:20,820 Sean Aylmer: Just tell me very briefly how it evolved, and how 45 00:02:20,820 --> 00:02:22,649 Sean Aylmer: your family got involved, et cetera. 46 00:02:23,280 --> 00:02:26,940 Richard Kuipers: Well, I came originally from Holland, and I was backpacking, 47 00:02:27,419 --> 00:02:31,350 Richard Kuipers: and a truck used to go past the hostel looking 48 00:02:31,350 --> 00:02:35,280 Richard Kuipers: for people to help him, so I got involved in 49 00:02:35,280 --> 00:02:38,100 Richard Kuipers: the furniture removal business, and then I thought, " I can 50 00:02:38,100 --> 00:02:41,970 Richard Kuipers: do this myself with this old beaten up truck," and 51 00:02:41,970 --> 00:02:46,680 Richard Kuipers: I started moving people myself, and it just evolved from there. 52 00:02:47,040 --> 00:02:49,770 Sean Aylmer: And a good idea, and hard work, I dare say, 53 00:02:49,770 --> 00:02:52,020 Sean Aylmer: because being a removalist is not an easy job. 54 00:02:52,560 --> 00:02:56,040 Richard Kuipers: Yeah, it's not the easiest. It's quite hard work. It's also 55 00:02:56,040 --> 00:02:58,500 Richard Kuipers: not too bad, because the drivers spend a lot of 56 00:02:58,500 --> 00:03:01,410 Richard Kuipers: time on the road going to jobs, and go back 57 00:03:01,410 --> 00:03:04,740 Richard Kuipers: again, but also, if you have enough people on the 58 00:03:04,740 --> 00:03:06,630 Richard Kuipers: truck, it's much easier. 59 00:03:07,260 --> 00:03:10,110 Sean Aylmer: Okay. So at what point did your family get involved in 60 00:03:10,110 --> 00:03:10,739 Sean Aylmer: the business? 61 00:03:10,919 --> 00:03:13,799 Richard Kuipers: Well, what happened was, when I was starting the business, 62 00:03:13,800 --> 00:03:17,400 Richard Kuipers: I was working from home, and when my kids came from 63 00:03:17,400 --> 00:03:20,850 Richard Kuipers: school, they would help out and answer the phones, " Two 64 00:03:20,850 --> 00:03:22,260 Richard Kuipers: Men and a Truck, may I help you?" 65 00:03:22,260 --> 00:03:22,350 Sean Aylmer: Right. 66 00:03:23,340 --> 00:03:26,910 Richard Kuipers: And 30- odd years later, they're still answering the phone with, " 67 00:03:27,090 --> 00:03:27,990 Richard Kuipers: Two Men and a Truck." 68 00:03:28,470 --> 00:03:28,859 Sean Aylmer: Wow. 69 00:03:29,070 --> 00:03:32,190 Richard Kuipers: But now, of course, (inaudible) is driving, and Catherine 70 00:03:32,190 --> 00:03:36,029 Richard Kuipers: is the CEO, and my youngest daughter, Elizabeth, she is the 71 00:03:36,210 --> 00:03:38,970 Richard Kuipers: public relations and customer service person. 72 00:03:39,420 --> 00:03:43,380 Sean Aylmer: Okay, so how do you manage that? It is very 73 00:03:43,380 --> 00:03:47,460 Sean Aylmer: tricky working with siblings for many, many people. Do you 74 00:03:47,460 --> 00:03:49,200 Sean Aylmer: have a set of rules around it? Do you have a 75 00:03:49,200 --> 00:03:50,970 Sean Aylmer: family chart? How does it work? 76 00:03:51,360 --> 00:03:54,720 Richard Kuipers: Well, first of all, the family is a member of Family Business 77 00:03:54,720 --> 00:03:59,970 Richard Kuipers: Australia, and Family Business Australia supports family businesses. They speak 78 00:03:59,970 --> 00:04:04,170 Richard Kuipers: to other businesses, and you'll also get a lot of courses and 79 00:04:04,380 --> 00:04:07,050 Richard Kuipers: Ella's daughter is also a part of the forum group 80 00:04:07,380 --> 00:04:12,090 Richard Kuipers: for the second generation. So what we did do is 81 00:04:12,420 --> 00:04:15,990 Richard Kuipers: create a chart. We've got a family mediator. You have 82 00:04:15,990 --> 00:04:19,380 Richard Kuipers: to have a family mediator, because otherwise, it gets out 83 00:04:19,380 --> 00:04:23,339 Richard Kuipers: of hand. The family mediator is part of Family Business 84 00:04:23,339 --> 00:04:27,599 Richard Kuipers: Australia, and we started sort of working on this chart 85 00:04:27,600 --> 00:04:28,890 Richard Kuipers: about three years ago. 86 00:04:29,190 --> 00:04:30,690 Sean Aylmer: And it's evolved over that time? 87 00:04:30,690 --> 00:04:33,720 Richard Kuipers: Well, it has. It started off with the basic rules of 88 00:04:33,720 --> 00:04:36,239 Richard Kuipers: the game, then we have the meetings; we have to 89 00:04:36,240 --> 00:04:41,760 Richard Kuipers: conduct ourselves accordingly, be polite, be interested. We don't taunt 90 00:04:41,760 --> 00:04:46,289 Richard Kuipers: people. And so that's the basic rules of the meeting 91 00:04:46,290 --> 00:04:49,710 Richard Kuipers: we go to have, and every time we have a meeting, our 92 00:04:49,710 --> 00:04:54,120 Richard Kuipers: mediator read out the rules, and that's a huge thing, 93 00:04:54,810 --> 00:04:55,169 Richard Kuipers: and the family sort of abides by it. 94 00:04:57,600 --> 00:04:59,460 Sean Aylmer: Stay with me, Richard. We'll be back in a minute. 95 00:05:05,850 --> 00:05:08,430 Sean Aylmer: My guest this morning is Richard Kuipers, founder of Two 96 00:05:08,430 --> 00:05:10,890 Sean Aylmer: Men and a Truck, and the author of Inside the 97 00:05:10,890 --> 00:05:15,300 Sean Aylmer: Box. Okay, the business itself now, am I right in saying 98 00:05:15,300 --> 00:05:18,120 Sean Aylmer: you've got 90 trucks or something? It's no longer a 99 00:05:18,120 --> 00:05:22,020 Sean Aylmer: small business; it's a medium- sized business. How do you 100 00:05:22,020 --> 00:05:25,140 Sean Aylmer: choose who is your successor? I mean, you see lots 101 00:05:25,140 --> 00:05:29,039 Sean Aylmer: of TV shows about the father or mother stepping down, and 102 00:05:29,460 --> 00:05:31,620 Sean Aylmer: a fight between the siblings to find out who takes 103 00:05:31,620 --> 00:05:34,140 Sean Aylmer: the job, but how did it work in your instance, 104 00:05:34,140 --> 00:05:37,830 Sean Aylmer: because your older daughter, you said, is CEO, and then 105 00:05:37,830 --> 00:05:40,920 Sean Aylmer: your younger daughter is public relations? How did you work 106 00:05:40,920 --> 00:05:41,310 Sean Aylmer: that out? 107 00:05:41,760 --> 00:05:45,810 Richard Kuipers: Well, they're both by coincidence, because Catherine has been with us the longest, 108 00:05:45,810 --> 00:05:50,490 Richard Kuipers: and she sort of worked herself into the business. She knows all the ins and outs. 109 00:05:50,700 --> 00:05:54,840 Richard Kuipers: She's very capable, and Lizzie joined much later. 110 00:05:55,410 --> 00:05:57,750 Sean Aylmer: Yeah, it's sort of natural, in a sense. Was it 111 00:05:57,750 --> 00:05:59,070 Sean Aylmer: hard for you to let go? 112 00:06:00,420 --> 00:06:02,250 Richard Kuipers: Well, (inaudible) 100%. 113 00:06:03,900 --> 00:06:04,770 Sean Aylmer: Right, so no? 114 00:06:04,771 --> 00:06:09,630 Richard Kuipers: I don't do any administration work, I don't do any lifting furniture, 115 00:06:09,630 --> 00:06:14,160 Richard Kuipers: or get involved too much. I'm 75, but we do 116 00:06:14,160 --> 00:06:18,690 Richard Kuipers: have weekly meetings, so we're much involved. We know what 117 00:06:18,690 --> 00:06:22,380 Richard Kuipers: goes on. We have a lot meetings with the family 118 00:06:22,380 --> 00:06:23,940 Richard Kuipers: and the mediator. 119 00:06:24,330 --> 00:06:24,931 Sean Aylmer: Yeah. Okay. 120 00:06:24,931 --> 00:06:27,810 Richard Kuipers: And we discuss all of the things that has to be 121 00:06:27,810 --> 00:06:31,740 Richard Kuipers: discussed so there's group clarification in the future. 122 00:06:32,250 --> 00:06:35,339 Sean Aylmer: So what are some of, I suppose, the downsides of 123 00:06:35,339 --> 00:06:36,480 Sean Aylmer: working with your family? 124 00:06:37,290 --> 00:06:41,429 Richard Kuipers: Well, the downside is, of course, fighting or arguing with 125 00:06:41,430 --> 00:06:44,279 Richard Kuipers: each other when we don't see eye- to- eye, but 126 00:06:44,279 --> 00:06:47,220 Richard Kuipers: at the moment, it's all going extremely well. We don't seem 127 00:06:47,220 --> 00:06:49,740 Richard Kuipers: to have any issues anymore, and we did have them 128 00:06:49,740 --> 00:06:50,430 Richard Kuipers: in the beginning. 129 00:06:51,120 --> 00:06:54,360 Sean Aylmer: Yeah, okay, and that's just the process of working through 130 00:06:54,360 --> 00:06:57,750 Sean Aylmer: it. Are there certain things with family businesses, maybe sort 131 00:06:57,750 --> 00:07:02,490 Sean Aylmer: of common mistakes that family businesses make that you've seen 132 00:07:02,580 --> 00:07:05,760 Sean Aylmer: where they haven't succeeded as a result of these mistakes. 133 00:07:05,760 --> 00:07:08,640 Sean Aylmer: I mean, what is impressive with you, Richard, here, is 134 00:07:08,880 --> 00:07:11,460 Sean Aylmer: you were talking about the family chart, and having a mediator, 135 00:07:11,460 --> 00:07:13,590 Sean Aylmer: and having a real process in place, in a sense, 136 00:07:13,830 --> 00:07:17,520 Sean Aylmer: to sort through challenges that'll always be there, whether it's 137 00:07:17,520 --> 00:07:21,330 Sean Aylmer: family or not, but I suppose I'm looking for instances 138 00:07:21,330 --> 00:07:25,290 Sean Aylmer: of where you see family businesses not succeed and why. 139 00:07:25,920 --> 00:07:30,480 Richard Kuipers: Well, I think why they don't succeed is they don't have a mediator who 140 00:07:30,480 --> 00:07:34,770 Richard Kuipers: knows what a family business is all about, and also, in the 141 00:07:34,770 --> 00:07:37,980 Richard Kuipers: family, you need one person who represents the family, who 142 00:07:38,310 --> 00:07:42,720 Richard Kuipers: insists that we do it; otherwise, we might give up. " 143 00:07:43,200 --> 00:07:44,700 Richard Kuipers: It's too complicated," " It's-" 144 00:07:44,760 --> 00:07:47,790 Sean Aylmer: Yeah, I mean, if you think of Linfox and Visy, I mentioned, 145 00:07:47,970 --> 00:07:53,820 Sean Aylmer: they have very dominant patriarchs. The Murdochs and Reinharts, a patriarch and a matriarch, in 146 00:07:53,820 --> 00:07:56,670 Sean Aylmer: those instances, but they do have one person who is kind 147 00:07:56,670 --> 00:07:58,920 Sean Aylmer: of leading the way, I suppose. 148 00:07:59,130 --> 00:08:02,010 Richard Kuipers: Yes, that's what you need; otherwise, it really doesn't work. 149 00:08:02,760 --> 00:08:07,200 Richard Kuipers: In our case, it was I who sort of insisted that 150 00:08:07,200 --> 00:08:09,869 Richard Kuipers: we do it and we get all our affairs in 151 00:08:09,870 --> 00:08:12,750 Richard Kuipers: order. I don't want to end up, if I pass 152 00:08:12,750 --> 00:08:15,660 Richard Kuipers: away, they all end up in court fighting and arguing 153 00:08:15,660 --> 00:08:19,230 Richard Kuipers: with each other, because basically, it's all in place. 154 00:08:19,710 --> 00:08:23,490 Sean Aylmer: And that must be a very important thing for you, that 155 00:08:23,610 --> 00:08:25,740 Sean Aylmer: as you slow down, in terms of how much work 156 00:08:25,800 --> 00:08:29,520 Sean Aylmer: you do, and then ultimately, in a long time, when 157 00:08:29,520 --> 00:08:32,190 Sean Aylmer: it does pass down through generations, that that is set 158 00:08:32,190 --> 00:08:33,090 Sean Aylmer: up for success. 159 00:08:33,330 --> 00:08:37,170 Richard Kuipers: That's right, and also, in the chart, the second part is 160 00:08:37,170 --> 00:08:41,579 Richard Kuipers: the legal side. We went through our solicitors, and the 161 00:08:41,580 --> 00:08:44,550 Richard Kuipers: whole family were talking to them, and we had a 162 00:08:44,550 --> 00:08:47,609 Richard Kuipers: sort of succession plan in place, and we had all 163 00:08:48,720 --> 00:08:54,420 Richard Kuipers: the real disgust and all the (inaudible) fixed up, 164 00:08:54,420 --> 00:08:57,090 Richard Kuipers: and if there's more, we just go to the solicitor, 165 00:08:57,150 --> 00:08:58,230 Richard Kuipers: and we discuss it all. 166 00:08:58,530 --> 00:08:59,010 Sean Aylmer: Okay. 167 00:08:59,309 --> 00:09:03,179 Richard Kuipers: It's not a fixed document; it's a live document, and things 168 00:09:03,179 --> 00:09:04,200 Richard Kuipers: change all the time, 169 00:09:04,620 --> 00:09:08,459 Sean Aylmer: It sounds like communicating to each other is very important, 170 00:09:08,460 --> 00:09:11,309 Sean Aylmer: and I do say it in a fairly honest and frank manner. 171 00:09:11,880 --> 00:09:15,630 Richard Kuipers: Well, that's right. We have to have clarity, and the family has to 172 00:09:15,630 --> 00:09:18,449 Richard Kuipers: know where they stand and what's going to happen in 173 00:09:18,450 --> 00:09:22,500 Richard Kuipers: the future of the business. I mean, I also have two 174 00:09:22,500 --> 00:09:25,230 Richard Kuipers: granddaughters, and they do a bit of part time work 175 00:09:25,230 --> 00:09:27,571 Richard Kuipers: in the business, so by the third generation, who knows? 176 00:09:27,571 --> 00:09:32,640 Sean Aylmer: Yeah, who knows? Richard, thank you for talking to Fear 177 00:09:32,640 --> 00:09:33,120 Sean Aylmer: and Greed. 178 00:09:33,630 --> 00:09:36,059 Richard Kuipers: Well, thank you for having me, Sean, it was is great. 179 00:09:36,480 --> 00:09:38,790 Sean Aylmer: That was Richard Kuipers, founder of Two Men and a 180 00:09:38,790 --> 00:09:42,480 Sean Aylmer: Truck, and the author of Inside the Box. This is 181 00:09:42,480 --> 00:09:44,819 Sean Aylmer: the Fear and Greed daily interview. Remember, you should get 182 00:09:44,820 --> 00:09:48,179 Sean Aylmer: professional advice before making any investment decisions. Join us every 183 00:09:48,179 --> 00:09:50,790 Sean Aylmer: morning for the full episode of Fear and Greed, Australia's 184 00:09:50,790 --> 00:09:54,420 Sean Aylmer: most popular business podcast. I'm Sean Aylmer. Enjoy your day.