Speaker 1: He worked with portfil of prison and I explained I
Speaker 1: was with Corrections Victorious, so we both knew the same job,
Speaker 1: we knew the same prisoners, so we did work.
Speaker 2: Your book is really the memoir of a screw dog Maggott.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, it was funny like that, as you.
Speaker 2: Found out, to your shock and horror the night the
Speaker 2: Friday night you went to the sea Ballah. It ended
Speaker 2: in blood, sweat and tears. Yeah, a lot of blood.
Speaker 2: I'm Andrew Rule is his life in crimes. Today. We
Speaker 2: have another author in the studio which is a bit
Speaker 2: different from the usual author because this author he's a
Speaker 2: first time author, and actually he is a lifetime prison officer.
Speaker 2: He is known in the system by the younger officers
Speaker 2: as a dinosaur because he's done more than twenty years
Speaker 2: in one of the toughest jobs that you can do.
Speaker 2: I would suggest his pen name is Bruce McLeod. It's
Speaker 2: not his real name. We won't use his real name
Speaker 2: because that would be a giveaway. The authorities take a
Speaker 2: dim view of prison officers using their real names when
Speaker 2: they do interviews and things, and so Bruce will be
Speaker 2: fairly tentative about some aspects of what he talks about.
Speaker 2: But he's going to tell us the reason he wrote
Speaker 2: his book, which has been recently published. It's called Justifying
Speaker 2: the Means, and he was prompted to do this probably
Speaker 2: by the sudden death of a very good friend. Bruce.
Speaker 2: Welcome to our humble studio. Tell us about the death
Speaker 2: of your friend and how you heard about it.
Speaker 1: Thank you, Andrew. Well, Brian was my best friend, almost
Speaker 1: like a brother to me because we had that shared
Speaker 1: experience of working in corrections. Yep, it was a Friday
Speaker 1: night we were traveling into My wife and I were
Speaker 1: traveling into the city to stay for the weekend, and
Speaker 1: it was also a chance to catch up with Brian
Speaker 1: and his wife as well.
Speaker 2: So how long ago is this?
Speaker 1: Two thousand and eighteen.
Speaker 2: Just before COVID, a couple of years before.
Speaker 1: So we were driving into the city from the west
Speaker 1: from down Geelong Way, so basically traveling in. We were
Speaker 1: staying at the Sebel in Flinders Lane. So as we
Speaker 1: came over the Westgate Bridge on the Friday night, as
Speaker 1: we normally would tune into the Channel nine news that
Speaker 1: were similar cast on FM radio, and that's when I
Speaker 1: heard what did you hear? Man's body was found at
Speaker 1: moreency that.
Speaker 2: Would interest you because you knew your friend lived at.
Speaker 1: That's correct, And at that stage my initial thought was,
Speaker 1: I wonder if Brian knew who this person was. They
Speaker 1: then basically mentioned the street name, and that's when it
Speaker 1: hit me that I thought my body just instinctively knew
Speaker 1: it was Brian. I couldn't describe it. It was just
Speaker 1: a feeling of something. Yeah, it was just something about
Speaker 1: that the story in the way it was announced that
Speaker 1: I thought it was him, and you.
Speaker 2: Were right, it was.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Immediately my wife basically started to call his mobile
Speaker 1: number than his wife's number. All we got was just
Speaker 1: answering messages. We were sending text messages. We were trying
Speaker 1: to contact other people in regards to had they heard
Speaker 1: the news and had they heard from from Brian or
Speaker 1: his wife. We kept driving. It was hard to describe
Speaker 1: because I couldn't I can't even remember how I got
Speaker 1: to the hotel. We had a feeling of dread absolutely,
Speaker 1: and at that stage we checked in, raced upstairs to
Speaker 1: our room and switched on the TV to try and
Speaker 1: get more information. We were doing searches on Google, anything
Speaker 1: that we could get right to just basically give us
Speaker 1: a little bit more in detail about what had happened,
Speaker 1: and then what happened next. We eventually saw the late
Speaker 1: news on Channel nine that night, and the images that.
Speaker 2: Still for your weekend in the city.
Speaker 1: Yeah, but the images still burned into my memory, and
Speaker 1: that was the female officer leading Brian's wife out from.
Speaker 2: The house, who you recognized.
Speaker 1: I recognized straight away. I recognized the house, her car,
Speaker 1: and she's been let out, and I just sunk to
Speaker 1: my knees and realized that was when my whole world
Speaker 1: just changed.
Speaker 2: Right now, Brian had been murdered.
Speaker 1: At that stage, I didn't realize. It wasn't until much
Speaker 1: later in the evening that we've got a phone call
Speaker 1: from his wife. She'd actually stepped out of the police station.
Speaker 1: Obviously she had been there doing interviews with detectives, but
Speaker 1: she stepped out for a cigarette. Rang our first thought
Speaker 1: was what happened. She basically described the fact that she
Speaker 1: went around there to find him, and I can still
Speaker 1: almost hear it in my mind, you know, her words
Speaker 1: saying there was just so much blood, so much blood,
Speaker 1: and it was haunting at that stage to realize that,
Speaker 1: you know, we still didn't know if he'd taken his
Speaker 1: own life or if he was murdered, But the more
Speaker 1: and more news came out about it, and we understood
Speaker 1: then at that stage he was murdered.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and the fact that there was so much blood
Speaker 2: would suggest that it's done with a sharp instrument, which
Speaker 2: is possibly It's not impossible to get itself with a knife.
Speaker 1: No, but yeah, the way in which he actually was
Speaker 1: murdered was quite brutal and horrific, right, And that those
Speaker 1: details came out obviously during the trial later on, But
Speaker 1: that that period where we were sort of finding out
Speaker 1: about bits and pieces of information, obviously your mind starts
Speaker 1: racing as far as all the ifs and what happened,
Speaker 1: and you try and start to put things together.
Speaker 2: I know we've chatted earlier about how we should tell
Speaker 2: your story or your stories, but I think now our
Speaker 2: listeners will probably want to know how you knew Brian
Speaker 2: and then find out what happened, what led up to this.
Speaker 2: You were both employed as prison officers at different prisons,
Speaker 2: different systems. You've had that in common, but you didn't
Speaker 2: actually work shoulder to shoulder. No, but you were great
Speaker 2: friends because you worked in the same yeah profession. Yeah, absolutely,
Speaker 2: How and when did you meet?
Speaker 1: Very funny story. Two thousand and six.
Speaker 2: Yep, it's almost twenty years ago.
Speaker 1: Now, yeah, we first met. We're at a pub one night.
Speaker 1: Back in those days, I actually smoked myself. So we
Speaker 1: were up at a rooftop bar. My wife had gone
Speaker 1: to the bar to get a drink. She'd been gone
Speaker 1: for a couple of minutes, so obviously I went looking
Speaker 1: for her, found her talking to Brian's wife and went
Speaker 1: up and my wife introduced to her to me and
Speaker 1: we had a bit of a chat. Next thing, I
Speaker 1: got bumped in the back from behind, and I had
Speaker 1: this hot breath in my ear good a screwed dog, maggot,
Speaker 1: and my world just basically tunnel vision. Then I immediately
Speaker 1: thought it's the next prisoner who was basically going to
Speaker 1: take a swing at me, And turned around and found
Speaker 1: this guy standing there who was six foot four, probably
Speaker 1: one hundred and fifty kilos, built like a brick shit house,
Speaker 1: and they had this massive cheesy grin on his face.
Speaker 2: So you knew he wasn't And yeah, I.
Speaker 1: Realized then he'd stitched me up, and he explained, Yeah,
Speaker 1: he explained. Then he worked in the private sector, so
Speaker 1: he worked with port Fillip prison and I explained I
Speaker 1: was with Corrections Victorious, so we both knew the same job,
Speaker 1: we knew the same prisoners, so we did work.
Speaker 2: Your book is the Memoir of a screw dog maggot.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, it was funny like that. I've been caught
Speaker 1: out a couple of times. One other time by another
Speaker 1: officer at a supermarket and yeah, not expecting it and
Speaker 1: scarce of ship out of here.
Speaker 2: You hear about cop humor, but the.
Speaker 1: Our humored tends to run very very dark.
Speaker 2: Very dark, so you hit it straight off with him
Speaker 2: this but two very different men. Yeah.
Speaker 1: I think our friendship really grew by the fact that
Speaker 1: we did work at different locations. We understood the system,
Speaker 1: we understood the role and what we would actually achieve,
Speaker 1: but we were separated by those work locations that we
Speaker 1: could vent to each other, okay, and we knew that
Speaker 1: information's not going to get back to the actual workplace.
Speaker 1: And that was fantastic because this is a job that
Speaker 1: you need to vent, you need to event to people
Speaker 1: that understood the standard family don't realize what it is
Speaker 1: that you do, what you go through, what you see
Speaker 1: and hear, an experience and in some aspects of the job,
Speaker 1: it's almost unthinkable as what you actually go through and
Speaker 1: see and experience.
Speaker 2: So they become very good friends.
Speaker 1: Yeah, so to talk to someone like that, we became
Speaker 1: best friends. We became almost like brothers. We never walked
Speaker 1: the same tears, but we experienced the same things. So
Speaker 1: we understood fears. Yeah, we understood each other so well.
Speaker 2: And unnecessary relationship in your business. Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 1: He was someone that no matter how bad my day was,
Speaker 1: I could talk to him and he would make things better.
Speaker 2: Now he's happy, go lucky, good company, is a man mountain.
Speaker 2: There's a lot to like about it. Bluck like that
Speaker 2: in your business and he failure with joy and confidence
Speaker 2: and all sorts of things. What happened?
Speaker 1: What went wrong for Brian? He was the sort of
Speaker 1: guy that, obviously, through that role, he would jump in
Speaker 1: and help anyone. So one day while at Port Phillip,
Speaker 1: he was basically running to someone's aid another officer up
Speaker 1: on a tier. Yep, he got jumped from behind, ended
Speaker 1: up falling downstairs and hurt his back.
Speaker 2: And a big heavy man falling downstairs is not a
Speaker 2: great thing. Your own size is against you. Yeah, because
Speaker 2: you fall harder.
Speaker 1: Yeah, well that's correct. I think he went through something
Speaker 1: like about four back operations. But at the end of
Speaker 1: that doctors then told him he would never work again.
Speaker 1: But as a result of that incident and being attacked
Speaker 1: and then his injuries, he ended up with a massive
Speaker 1: payout out from g fours, who basically run Port Phillip Prison.
Speaker 1: So as a result of being told you're never going
Speaker 1: to work again, he was in constant pain. If he
Speaker 1: sat too long, he had to stand because he was
Speaker 1: in pain. If you stood too long, he had to
Speaker 1: sit down because he was in pain.
Speaker 2: And so that did you see the change in him?
Speaker 1: Yeah, he basically he did change. He became probably a
Speaker 1: little bit more isolated, only having sort of close friends
Speaker 1: and that around people that understood what he was going through.
Speaker 2: We're sorry. When this happened, this would be.
Speaker 1: Two three years before the before Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so this is roughly twenty fifteen or something like that.
Speaker 1: Yeah, something like that. I think.
Speaker 2: So he gets a payout. So you know, he's assaulted
Speaker 2: in jail. It does happen. You don't always get that
Speaker 2: badly hurt when but he did, and he couldn't sit,
Speaker 2: he couldn't work. It did Buggery's life up. He gets
Speaker 2: a payout. Now, when you say a massive payout, not
Speaker 2: a life changing just something that covered, you know, not
Speaker 2: the sort of thing where you can go buy a
Speaker 2: house with it.
Speaker 1: No. No, he got a massive payout in the sense
Speaker 1: that it wasn't as large as what he thought, but
Speaker 1: the payout ensured that they would pay for all his
Speaker 1: medical expenses in the future. Right, so that he did
Speaker 1: go out and buy a brand new land cruise. I
Speaker 1: think he spent one hundred and twenty thousand on that
Speaker 1: and was all kidded out for him. He was an
Speaker 1: outdoors man, He was a fisherman, a hunter. He loved
Speaker 1: the outdoors, love camping, getting away. So there was a
Speaker 1: lot of aspects of his life that just changed in
Speaker 1: that one instance. It was so devastating to him as
Speaker 1: far as not being able to work that he then
Speaker 1: looked upon as far as an idea of basically supporting
Speaker 1: himself something that he could invest.
Speaker 2: He wanted to invest his money, invest his.
Speaker 1: Money, get some sort of return on that to set
Speaker 1: himself up a little bit more for the future.
Speaker 2: The future because he realized he probably couldn't run the
Speaker 2: gym's mowing franchise or anything, because he his back was shot. Yeah,
Speaker 2: and yeah, a terrible thing. So here's your friend. He's
Speaker 2: got some money, he's got a nice new car, but
Speaker 2: he knows that it's not going to last if he
Speaker 2: can't invest in and get a return. So he looks
Speaker 2: around to invest his money and get a return.
Speaker 1: What happened then, So he basically invested his money with
Speaker 1: a friend that he knew, somebody. I had no knowledge
Speaker 1: of this person, although I did find out a lot later,
Speaker 1: but at that stage he invested money. Now, I'm of
Speaker 1: probably the old school where I had no idea it
Speaker 1: was Brian's business. I didn't ask him about how much
Speaker 1: it was or who he invested with, but that's what
Speaker 1: he was looking at doing.
Speaker 2: It was a hangover from his previous life. He'd been
Speaker 2: a tradesman, Yes, that's where he joined the job.
Speaker 1: He was a chippy for a long time.
Speaker 2: And he would have met and known quite a lot
Speaker 2: of people. Yeah, as a trades have been working on
Speaker 2: construction sites, you met all the other trades. Yeah, and
Speaker 2: various people as supply things and so on. So we
Speaker 2: know quite a lot of people in that area.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's right.
Speaker 2: And one of them, we would think is the person
Speaker 2: that he invested with.
Speaker 1: Correct, This person obviously had a few people invest with him.
Speaker 2: Right, he canvassed. But yeah, he had a project. He
Speaker 2: had an idea.
Speaker 1: I believe it was something to do with the commercial
Speaker 1: drainage system, something along those lines. But the month before
Speaker 1: Brian was actually murdered, he came around to our house.
Speaker 1: We'd moved into a new home. Brian came around.
Speaker 2: Even Brian came to your house. Yep, So even with.
Speaker 1: All the pain that he was going through, he actually
Speaker 1: helped me put up our clothesline. Did he We sat
Speaker 1: down afterwards, having a few drinks, and he told me
Speaker 1: then that he was basically asking this guy for the
Speaker 1: for the money back. Even at that stage I had
Speaker 1: no idea how much he invested with this person. But
Speaker 1: that was the month before, and he said he was
Speaker 1: asking for this money back.
Speaker 2: Right, And it didn't really register then that it was
Speaker 2: particularly particularly a problem. No, No, he wasn't really upset
Speaker 2: about it.
Speaker 1: No. I had again no knowledge of who it was
Speaker 1: all the amount.
Speaker 2: But bryan demeanor was not He wasn't distressed about it.
Speaker 1: No, No, it was just having a normal conversation over
Speaker 1: a few drinks and he said, yeah, I looked obviously
Speaker 1: not going too well. I'm asking for the money back, right.
Speaker 2: But as you found out, to your shock and horror,
Speaker 2: the night the Friday night you went to the Sea bull, Yeah,
Speaker 2: it ended in Yeah, blood, sweat and tears. Yeah, a
Speaker 2: lot of blood. You contacted the police, didn't you, Yeah,
Speaker 2: because the police didn't know who did it initially, No, so,
Speaker 2: and you had an idea.
Speaker 1: Well, I basically it was probably a week later. We
Speaker 1: were still waiting. Obviously the croenter had Brian's body, so
Speaker 1: there was no funeral. Was still waiting to hear of
Speaker 1: things and find out more information. But yeah, I ran
Speaker 1: crime stoppers. I spoke to a female detective who rang and.
Speaker 2: They took notice of you. Yeah.
Speaker 1: I wanted to explain to her that although I didn't
Speaker 1: have a suspect in mind, I wanted her to understand
Speaker 1: who Brian was, even though he was no longer a
Speaker 1: prison officer. Once you're an officer, you're always an officer.
Speaker 2: You have what does that mean?
Speaker 1: You have that personality? You have that basically the understanding
Speaker 1: that you keep people at a distance. Trusting people is
Speaker 1: very very difficult, and you want them. Yeah, you basically,
Speaker 1: keep people in your peripheral all the time. You don't
Speaker 1: turn your back on anyone.
Speaker 2: What you were telling the police officer or reminding them,
Speaker 2: is that because of his years as a prison officer,
Speaker 2: Brian wasn't the sort a bloke that would have somebody
Speaker 2: that he perceived to be a danger or possible potential danger,
Speaker 2: or a stranger up close and personal. He wouldn't have
Speaker 2: them behind him. He would he'd keep them inside, but
Speaker 2: he'd have all those little tricks that you blogs have
Speaker 2: as do bounce of security guys. You see it with
Speaker 2: people in that business. They're always watchful. They got their
Speaker 2: head on a stick moving and Brian was like that.
Speaker 2: So therefore you deduced, and you told the police this.
Speaker 2: You deduced that whoever did this was someone he knew well,
Speaker 2: that he trusted.
Speaker 1: Correct.
Speaker 2: That then gave them the idea that perhaps they should
Speaker 2: look at people he knew well, not a random thing
Speaker 2: or somebody he didn't know well.
Speaker 1: That and the fact that it involved money involved. I
Speaker 1: had no idea, but certainly I assumed it would have
Speaker 1: been a large amount of money he would have invested.
Speaker 1: But as I said, I think six figures. Brian, like
Speaker 1: all officers. We become hyper vigilant. You see threats everywhere,
Speaker 1: so for him to turn his back, and it was
Speaker 1: after that that I think it was a week later
Speaker 1: they basically made an arrest. We then had the funeral.
Speaker 1: I actually got approached by officers from where he worked,
Speaker 1: from Port Phillip, and they spoke to me. After the funeral,
Speaker 1: I told a funny story about Brian. We actually I
Speaker 1: actually got him a tour of the prison. I was
Speaker 1: working at Melbourne Assessment Prison at the time and he
Speaker 1: basically came in for a tour and showed him around.
Speaker 1: We both knew a few prisoners there and that. But
Speaker 1: after the funeral, I actually got approached by officers from
Speaker 1: Port Phillip who said, if we ever get hold of
Speaker 1: this guy, and I said to him, I'll stop you
Speaker 1: right there. Do not tell me. I do not want
Speaker 1: to know. As far as and I stayed away from
Speaker 1: the trial. I stayed away from a lot of it
Speaker 1: because I didn't want this person having influence over my
Speaker 1: emotions and making own decisions.
Speaker 2: That would affect very wise in the long run.
Speaker 1: And the only thing I wanted management to know where
Speaker 1: I was working was just simply who this person was
Speaker 1: and the fact that I asked he not be sent
Speaker 1: to that prison, okay, and they basically said, don't worry
Speaker 1: as long as you're working here.
Speaker 2: He had not come here and not come here. That
Speaker 2: was very very good of them, really, it was.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I really appreciated that. I didn't know how I
Speaker 1: would react to come face to face with his killer.
Speaker 2: Just to go back to the crime, this central crime,
Speaker 2: a crime that's really affected your life and made you
Speaker 2: decide to write this book indirectly, what happened with it.
Speaker 2: He's invested the money, the guy with the money with
Speaker 2: his project drainage game or whatever, it hasn't worked or
Speaker 2: he hasn't got the money to pay in back. What
Speaker 2: came to a head? What happened?
Speaker 1: So during the trial, it came out that he basically
Speaker 1: went around to speak to Brian and he used to
Speaker 1: a ruse to basically go and use the toilet. He
Speaker 1: then came out claimed that the toilet wasn't flushing right.
Speaker 1: Brian went in to actually have a look at it,
Speaker 1: and this guy grabbed a knife from the kitchen, stabbed
Speaker 1: Brian in the back, so back and neck about thirty
Speaker 1: four times.
Speaker 2: So this was at least to that extent. It was
Speaker 2: a planned attack. I mean, whether he planned it for
Speaker 2: two days or two weeks or two minutes, he planned
Speaker 2: it to get him to get step into the toilet
Speaker 2: and do that with a ruse. He's a plan.
Speaker 1: I can't comment. I don't know.
Speaker 2: Clearly, even if it's only a short term thing he did. Yeah,
Speaker 2: he wasn't you know, we had an argument and then
Speaker 2: we start hitting each other. It wasn't that.
Speaker 1: The only thing I would say is that during the trial,
Speaker 1: his defense team trying to use an alleged story that
Speaker 1: Brian had threatened this person's children, and the judge basically
Speaker 1: saw it for what it was, completely fanciful, that he
Speaker 1: never made any threats and all of that, and a
Speaker 1: as a result, he ended up with twenty eight years
Speaker 1: I think around twenty two twenty three on the bottom
Speaker 1: as far as but yeah, twenty eight years maximum.
Speaker 2: Most of the rest of his life he'll be yeah, yeah,
Speaker 2: he'll come out a very old man, if he comes
Speaker 2: out at all.
Speaker 1: But I think for myself that the night Brian was murdered,
Speaker 1: it was like it wasn't something broke inside me. It
Speaker 1: was like a spark or a light just went out.
Speaker 1: I had a lot of grief and guilt after the funeral,
Speaker 1: after all the trial. And that's basically I didn't have
Speaker 1: my friend that I could speak to anymore. I couldn't
Speaker 1: ring him and tell him about my day or did
Speaker 1: the assault or an incident at work or anything like that.
Speaker 1: So I would wake at two three o'clock in the
Speaker 1: morning and start writing notes on that on my phone
Speaker 1: as a way of still talking to him. Yes, and
Speaker 1: that's what ultimately led to writing the actual book.
Speaker 2: The book is a long letter to your dead mate,
Speaker 2: is Well.
Speaker 1: It's inspired by his story. I like to think of
Speaker 1: it as telling his story. He was someone that mattered
Speaker 1: as all correction offices, what we do and what we
Speaker 1: go through.
Speaker 2: It's very hard your book justifying the means. It's how
Speaker 2: would you characterize who are you talking to in that book?
Speaker 2: Who you read?
Speaker 1: It's pretty much, well, it's a psychological I've put it
Speaker 1: as a psychological crime thriller. I had a writing coach. Obviously,
Speaker 1: debut books, I've never tried this before, so I had
Speaker 1: a writing coach who basically read parts of it and
Speaker 1: came back with her first line on her report was
Speaker 1: thoroughly enjoyed your story, right, good, But you had a
Speaker 1: lot of questions what happens to this person and what
Speaker 1: happens here and that? So that certainly gave me the
Speaker 1: confidence to continue writing.
Speaker 2: Is this a work of complete fiction? Fiction based on
Speaker 2: real events, real events, just but with false names?
Speaker 1: How to characterize it real events with Yeah, I've changed
Speaker 1: a few names and dates and.
Speaker 2: A few Bruce, but you're not Bruce at all.
Speaker 1: No, no, but that's a funny story. As well. As
Speaker 1: I used to DJ forty years ago.
Speaker 2: Did you no clubs? Did you? Yeah, a few of
Speaker 2: your future customers in there.
Speaker 1: Well, I still do. Actually DJ mixes for a few
Speaker 1: close friends and that. Yeah, a lot of seventies and
Speaker 1: eighties and that. But at the time, I think it
Speaker 1: was nineteen eighty four, a movie came out they called
Speaker 1: me Bruce, and I did a lot of martial arts
Speaker 1: around that time. So the guy that I used to
Speaker 1: DJ with said, I'll call you Bruce from now on,
Speaker 1: and he still does to this day, as in Bruce
Speaker 1: Lee as in Yeah, that was the film interesting we
Speaker 1: think about it. It was a comedy, wasn't probably one
Speaker 1: of the best, but it was quite.
Speaker 2: Fun with Bruce, And so that's why you chose that.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, there's this idea that until you grieve,
Speaker 1: you can't move on. We act and move about, we
Speaker 1: put on the uniform, we put on the fake smile,
Speaker 1: but until you actually grieve, you can't move on. We're
Speaker 1: going through the motions and I never really understood that
Speaker 1: until Brian was murdered.
Speaker 2: And that's the end of our first part of the
Speaker 2: story being told to us by Bruce McLeod, serving prison
Speaker 2: officer who has written a book called Justifying the Means.
Speaker 2: Next week we will hear the rest of Bruce's story.
Speaker 1: Thanks Andrew, Thanks for listening.
Speaker 2: Life in Crimes is a Sunday Herald Sun production for
Speaker 2: True Crime Australia. Our producer is Johnty Burton. For my columns,
Speaker 2: features and more, go to Heroldsun dot com dot au
Speaker 2: forward slash Andrew rule one word. For advertising inquiries, go
Speaker 2: to news Podcasts sold at news dot com dot au.
Speaker 2: That is all one word news podcasts sold And if
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