WEBVTT - Justifying the means: Part 1 0:00:01.560 --> 0:00:04.800 He worked with portfil of prison and I explained I 0:00:04.840 --> 0:00:08.600 was with Corrections Victorious, so we both knew the same job, 0:00:08.920 --> 0:00:12.040 we knew the same prisoners, so we did work. 0:00:12.520 --> 0:00:14.960 Your book is really the memoir of a screw dog Maggott. 0:00:15.840 --> 0:00:18.439 Yeah, yeah, it was funny like that, as you. 0:00:18.560 --> 0:00:22.079 Found out, to your shock and horror the night the 0:00:22.120 --> 0:00:24.640 Friday night you went to the sea Ballah. It ended 0:00:24.960 --> 0:00:29.280 in blood, sweat and tears. Yeah, a lot of blood. 0:00:29.960 --> 0:00:32.960 I'm Andrew Rule is his life in crimes. Today. We 0:00:33.120 --> 0:00:37.880 have another author in the studio which is a bit 0:00:37.880 --> 0:00:41.080 different from the usual author because this author he's a 0:00:41.120 --> 0:00:45.800 first time author, and actually he is a lifetime prison officer. 0:00:46.159 --> 0:00:49.519 He is known in the system by the younger officers 0:00:49.560 --> 0:00:52.920 as a dinosaur because he's done more than twenty years 0:00:53.280 --> 0:00:55.880 in one of the toughest jobs that you can do. 0:00:56.480 --> 0:01:00.520 I would suggest his pen name is Bruce McLeod. It's 0:01:00.560 --> 0:01:02.880 not his real name. We won't use his real name 0:01:02.920 --> 0:01:06.560 because that would be a giveaway. The authorities take a 0:01:06.560 --> 0:01:09.200 dim view of prison officers using their real names when 0:01:09.200 --> 0:01:12.920 they do interviews and things, and so Bruce will be 0:01:13.080 --> 0:01:17.160 fairly tentative about some aspects of what he talks about. 0:01:17.760 --> 0:01:22.160 But he's going to tell us the reason he wrote 0:01:22.840 --> 0:01:28.600 his book, which has been recently published. It's called Justifying 0:01:28.840 --> 0:01:33.759 the Means, and he was prompted to do this probably 0:01:34.080 --> 0:01:38.560 by the sudden death of a very good friend. Bruce. 0:01:38.680 --> 0:01:44.080 Welcome to our humble studio. Tell us about the death 0:01:44.120 --> 0:01:46.039 of your friend and how you heard about it. 0:01:46.800 --> 0:01:51.640 Thank you, Andrew. Well, Brian was my best friend, almost 0:01:51.720 --> 0:01:54.000 like a brother to me because we had that shared 0:01:54.040 --> 0:01:57.880 experience of working in corrections. Yep, it was a Friday 0:01:57.960 --> 0:02:00.240 night we were traveling into My wife and I were 0:02:00.240 --> 0:02:02.520 traveling into the city to stay for the weekend, and 0:02:02.560 --> 0:02:05.680 it was also a chance to catch up with Brian 0:02:06.040 --> 0:02:07.200 and his wife as well. 0:02:08.320 --> 0:02:09.640 So how long ago is this? 0:02:10.600 --> 0:02:13.240 Two thousand and eighteen. 0:02:13.040 --> 0:02:15.680 Just before COVID, a couple of years before. 0:02:16.639 --> 0:02:20.400 So we were driving into the city from the west 0:02:21.200 --> 0:02:24.240 from down Geelong Way, so basically traveling in. We were 0:02:24.280 --> 0:02:27.960 staying at the Sebel in Flinders Lane. So as we 0:02:28.000 --> 0:02:32.000 came over the Westgate Bridge on the Friday night, as 0:02:32.040 --> 0:02:35.640 we normally would tune into the Channel nine news that 0:02:35.680 --> 0:02:39.720 were similar cast on FM radio, and that's when I 0:02:39.760 --> 0:02:42.960 heard what did you hear? Man's body was found at 0:02:42.960 --> 0:02:44.120 moreency that. 0:02:44.080 --> 0:02:46.960 Would interest you because you knew your friend lived at. 0:02:47.600 --> 0:02:52.160 That's correct, And at that stage my initial thought was, 0:02:52.320 --> 0:02:56.160 I wonder if Brian knew who this person was. They 0:02:56.200 --> 0:03:00.040 then basically mentioned the street name, and that's when it 0:03:00.120 --> 0:03:04.360 hit me that I thought my body just instinctively knew 0:03:04.919 --> 0:03:09.440 it was Brian. I couldn't describe it. It was just 0:03:09.480 --> 0:03:13.480 a feeling of something. Yeah, it was just something about 0:03:13.560 --> 0:03:15.800 that the story in the way it was announced that 0:03:16.360 --> 0:03:17.680 I thought it was him, and you. 0:03:17.680 --> 0:03:18.920 Were right, it was. 0:03:19.200 --> 0:03:24.000 Yeah. Immediately my wife basically started to call his mobile 0:03:24.120 --> 0:03:27.600 number than his wife's number. All we got was just 0:03:27.800 --> 0:03:30.920 answering messages. We were sending text messages. We were trying 0:03:30.919 --> 0:03:34.239 to contact other people in regards to had they heard 0:03:34.240 --> 0:03:36.920 the news and had they heard from from Brian or 0:03:36.960 --> 0:03:40.520 his wife. We kept driving. It was hard to describe 0:03:40.520 --> 0:03:43.880 because I couldn't I can't even remember how I got 0:03:43.880 --> 0:03:47.839 to the hotel. We had a feeling of dread absolutely, 0:03:48.200 --> 0:03:51.720 and at that stage we checked in, raced upstairs to 0:03:51.800 --> 0:03:54.920 our room and switched on the TV to try and 0:03:54.960 --> 0:03:58.680 get more information. We were doing searches on Google, anything 0:03:58.720 --> 0:04:01.280 that we could get right to just basically give us 0:04:01.280 --> 0:04:03.920 a little bit more in detail about what had happened, 0:04:03.960 --> 0:04:07.640 and then what happened next. We eventually saw the late 0:04:07.680 --> 0:04:11.840 news on Channel nine that night, and the images that. 0:04:11.960 --> 0:04:13.600 Still for your weekend in the city. 0:04:13.800 --> 0:04:18.000 Yeah, but the images still burned into my memory, and 0:04:18.040 --> 0:04:22.880 that was the female officer leading Brian's wife out from. 0:04:22.680 --> 0:04:24.240 The house, who you recognized. 0:04:24.279 --> 0:04:27.400 I recognized straight away. I recognized the house, her car, 0:04:27.920 --> 0:04:31.719 and she's been let out, and I just sunk to 0:04:31.760 --> 0:04:36.520 my knees and realized that was when my whole world 0:04:36.800 --> 0:04:37.440 just changed. 0:04:37.680 --> 0:04:41.080 Right now, Brian had been murdered. 0:04:42.400 --> 0:04:45.680 At that stage, I didn't realize. It wasn't until much 0:04:45.760 --> 0:04:48.800 later in the evening that we've got a phone call 0:04:48.880 --> 0:04:52.880 from his wife. She'd actually stepped out of the police station. 0:04:53.279 --> 0:04:58.320 Obviously she had been there doing interviews with detectives, but 0:04:58.440 --> 0:05:02.279 she stepped out for a cigarette. Rang our first thought 0:05:02.400 --> 0:05:06.919 was what happened. She basically described the fact that she 0:05:07.040 --> 0:05:11.239 went around there to find him, and I can still 0:05:11.360 --> 0:05:13.800 almost hear it in my mind, you know, her words 0:05:13.839 --> 0:05:16.800 saying there was just so much blood, so much blood, 0:05:17.400 --> 0:05:20.440 and it was haunting at that stage to realize that, 0:05:20.839 --> 0:05:24.359 you know, we still didn't know if he'd taken his 0:05:24.440 --> 0:05:28.320 own life or if he was murdered, But the more 0:05:28.360 --> 0:05:31.760 and more news came out about it, and we understood 0:05:31.760 --> 0:05:34.080 then at that stage he was murdered. 0:05:34.320 --> 0:05:36.320 Yeah, and the fact that there was so much blood 0:05:36.320 --> 0:05:40.480 would suggest that it's done with a sharp instrument, which 0:05:41.080 --> 0:05:44.760 is possibly It's not impossible to get itself with a knife. 0:05:44.880 --> 0:05:50.520 No, but yeah, the way in which he actually was 0:05:50.640 --> 0:05:54.000 murdered was quite brutal and horrific, right, And that those 0:05:54.040 --> 0:05:57.520 details came out obviously during the trial later on, But 0:05:58.600 --> 0:06:01.479 that that period where we were sort of finding out 0:06:01.520 --> 0:06:05.839 about bits and pieces of information, obviously your mind starts 0:06:05.920 --> 0:06:10.480 racing as far as all the ifs and what happened, 0:06:10.480 --> 0:06:12.919 and you try and start to put things together. 0:06:13.279 --> 0:06:16.560 I know we've chatted earlier about how we should tell 0:06:16.880 --> 0:06:20.440 your story or your stories, but I think now our 0:06:20.440 --> 0:06:22.640 listeners will probably want to know how you knew Brian 0:06:23.240 --> 0:06:26.440 and then find out what happened, what led up to this. 0:06:26.960 --> 0:06:31.719 You were both employed as prison officers at different prisons, 0:06:32.200 --> 0:06:34.520 different systems. You've had that in common, but you didn't 0:06:34.520 --> 0:06:37.640 actually work shoulder to shoulder. No, but you were great 0:06:37.680 --> 0:06:41.839 friends because you worked in the same yeah profession. Yeah, absolutely, 0:06:42.360 --> 0:06:43.479 How and when did you meet? 0:06:44.000 --> 0:06:46.159 Very funny story. Two thousand and six. 0:06:46.320 --> 0:06:48.240 Yep, it's almost twenty years ago. 0:06:48.279 --> 0:06:51.880 Now, yeah, we first met. We're at a pub one night. 0:06:52.560 --> 0:06:54.760 Back in those days, I actually smoked myself. So we 0:06:54.760 --> 0:06:58.280 were up at a rooftop bar. My wife had gone 0:06:58.279 --> 0:07:01.520 to the bar to get a drink. She'd been gone 0:07:01.520 --> 0:07:05.520 for a couple of minutes, so obviously I went looking 0:07:05.560 --> 0:07:09.200 for her, found her talking to Brian's wife and went 0:07:09.320 --> 0:07:12.480 up and my wife introduced to her to me and 0:07:12.600 --> 0:07:15.240 we had a bit of a chat. Next thing, I 0:07:15.280 --> 0:07:19.640 got bumped in the back from behind, and I had 0:07:19.640 --> 0:07:25.040 this hot breath in my ear good a screwed dog, maggot, 0:07:26.560 --> 0:07:31.880 and my world just basically tunnel vision. Then I immediately 0:07:31.920 --> 0:07:34.440 thought it's the next prisoner who was basically going to 0:07:34.600 --> 0:07:37.720 take a swing at me, And turned around and found 0:07:37.760 --> 0:07:41.440 this guy standing there who was six foot four, probably 0:07:41.480 --> 0:07:44.400 one hundred and fifty kilos, built like a brick shit house, 0:07:45.480 --> 0:07:49.080 and they had this massive cheesy grin on his face. 0:07:49.080 --> 0:07:51.440 So you knew he wasn't And yeah, I. 0:07:51.440 --> 0:07:55.840 Realized then he'd stitched me up, and he explained, Yeah, 0:07:55.920 --> 0:07:58.920 he explained. Then he worked in the private sector, so 0:07:58.960 --> 0:08:02.160 he worked with port Fillip prison and I explained I 0:08:02.200 --> 0:08:05.960 was with Corrections Victorious, so we both knew the same job, 0:08:06.280 --> 0:08:09.360 we knew the same prisoners, so we did work. 0:08:09.880 --> 0:08:12.400 Your book is the Memoir of a screw dog maggot. 0:08:13.160 --> 0:08:15.680 Yeah, yeah, it was funny like that. I've been caught 0:08:15.680 --> 0:08:19.080 out a couple of times. One other time by another 0:08:19.160 --> 0:08:23.600 officer at a supermarket and yeah, not expecting it and 0:08:24.040 --> 0:08:25.120 scarce of ship out of here. 0:08:25.280 --> 0:08:27.120 You hear about cop humor, but the. 0:08:29.680 --> 0:08:33.600 Our humored tends to run very very dark. 0:08:33.520 --> 0:08:36.760 Very dark, so you hit it straight off with him 0:08:36.800 --> 0:08:39.160 this but two very different men. Yeah. 0:08:39.520 --> 0:08:43.120 I think our friendship really grew by the fact that 0:08:43.400 --> 0:08:47.440 we did work at different locations. We understood the system, 0:08:47.720 --> 0:08:51.120 we understood the role and what we would actually achieve, 0:08:51.880 --> 0:08:56.040 but we were separated by those work locations that we 0:08:56.080 --> 0:08:59.880 could vent to each other, okay, and we knew that 0:09:00.080 --> 0:09:03.239 information's not going to get back to the actual workplace. 0:09:04.800 --> 0:09:08.280 And that was fantastic because this is a job that 0:09:08.320 --> 0:09:10.560 you need to vent, you need to event to people 0:09:10.559 --> 0:09:14.920 that understood the standard family don't realize what it is 0:09:14.960 --> 0:09:17.840 that you do, what you go through, what you see 0:09:17.920 --> 0:09:21.920 and hear, an experience and in some aspects of the job, 0:09:22.679 --> 0:09:26.000 it's almost unthinkable as what you actually go through and 0:09:26.040 --> 0:09:27.040 see and experience. 0:09:27.400 --> 0:09:29.480 So they become very good friends. 0:09:29.600 --> 0:09:33.200 Yeah, so to talk to someone like that, we became 0:09:33.679 --> 0:09:37.360 best friends. We became almost like brothers. We never walked 0:09:38.000 --> 0:09:42.040 the same tears, but we experienced the same things. So 0:09:42.080 --> 0:09:46.440 we understood fears. Yeah, we understood each other so well. 0:09:47.040 --> 0:09:51.200 And unnecessary relationship in your business. Yeah. Yeah. 0:09:51.280 --> 0:09:54.720 He was someone that no matter how bad my day was, 0:09:54.880 --> 0:09:58.040 I could talk to him and he would make things better. 0:09:58.160 --> 0:10:02.480 Now he's happy, go lucky, good company, is a man mountain. 0:10:02.800 --> 0:10:04.600 There's a lot to like about it. Bluck like that 0:10:04.800 --> 0:10:08.880 in your business and he failure with joy and confidence 0:10:08.920 --> 0:10:10.679 and all sorts of things. What happened? 0:10:10.760 --> 0:10:13.880 What went wrong for Brian? He was the sort of 0:10:13.880 --> 0:10:17.240 guy that, obviously, through that role, he would jump in 0:10:17.480 --> 0:10:22.120 and help anyone. So one day while at Port Phillip, 0:10:22.440 --> 0:10:27.080 he was basically running to someone's aid another officer up 0:10:27.120 --> 0:10:30.520 on a tier. Yep, he got jumped from behind, ended 0:10:30.600 --> 0:10:33.360 up falling downstairs and hurt his back. 0:10:33.960 --> 0:10:37.199 And a big heavy man falling downstairs is not a 0:10:37.880 --> 0:10:41.120 great thing. Your own size is against you. Yeah, because 0:10:41.120 --> 0:10:42.079 you fall harder. 0:10:42.360 --> 0:10:44.760 Yeah, well that's correct. I think he went through something 0:10:44.840 --> 0:10:47.800 like about four back operations. But at the end of 0:10:47.880 --> 0:10:51.360 that doctors then told him he would never work again. 0:10:52.120 --> 0:10:56.760 But as a result of that incident and being attacked 0:10:56.760 --> 0:10:59.680 and then his injuries, he ended up with a massive 0:10:59.679 --> 0:11:04.240 payout out from g fours, who basically run Port Phillip Prison. 0:11:05.160 --> 0:11:08.560 So as a result of being told you're never going 0:11:08.640 --> 0:11:11.080 to work again, he was in constant pain. If he 0:11:11.160 --> 0:11:13.720 sat too long, he had to stand because he was 0:11:13.760 --> 0:11:16.200 in pain. If you stood too long, he had to 0:11:16.240 --> 0:11:17.640 sit down because he was in pain. 0:11:17.960 --> 0:11:20.440 And so that did you see the change in him? 0:11:20.880 --> 0:11:26.520 Yeah, he basically he did change. He became probably a 0:11:26.559 --> 0:11:29.960 little bit more isolated, only having sort of close friends 0:11:29.960 --> 0:11:33.520 and that around people that understood what he was going through. 0:11:33.960 --> 0:11:36.719 We're sorry. When this happened, this would be. 0:11:36.960 --> 0:11:39.760 Two three years before the before Yeah. 0:11:39.840 --> 0:11:42.520 Yeah, so this is roughly twenty fifteen or something like that. 0:11:42.600 --> 0:11:43.760 Yeah, something like that. I think. 0:11:44.040 --> 0:11:46.800 So he gets a payout. So you know, he's assaulted 0:11:46.840 --> 0:11:49.520 in jail. It does happen. You don't always get that 0:11:49.600 --> 0:11:52.520 badly hurt when but he did, and he couldn't sit, 0:11:52.600 --> 0:11:55.800 he couldn't work. It did Buggery's life up. He gets 0:11:55.800 --> 0:11:58.560 a payout. Now, when you say a massive payout, not 0:11:58.800 --> 0:12:02.840 a life changing just something that covered, you know, not 0:12:02.880 --> 0:12:04.200 the sort of thing where you can go buy a 0:12:04.200 --> 0:12:04.800 house with it. 0:12:05.240 --> 0:12:08.959 No. No, he got a massive payout in the sense 0:12:09.000 --> 0:12:11.760 that it wasn't as large as what he thought, but 0:12:11.880 --> 0:12:14.920 the payout ensured that they would pay for all his 0:12:15.040 --> 0:12:20.320 medical expenses in the future. Right, so that he did 0:12:20.360 --> 0:12:23.240 go out and buy a brand new land cruise. I 0:12:23.240 --> 0:12:25.160 think he spent one hundred and twenty thousand on that 0:12:25.520 --> 0:12:27.720 and was all kidded out for him. He was an 0:12:27.760 --> 0:12:31.080 outdoors man, He was a fisherman, a hunter. He loved 0:12:31.120 --> 0:12:34.200 the outdoors, love camping, getting away. So there was a 0:12:34.240 --> 0:12:37.640 lot of aspects of his life that just changed in 0:12:37.679 --> 0:12:43.040 that one instance. It was so devastating to him as 0:12:43.040 --> 0:12:45.280 far as not being able to work that he then 0:12:45.360 --> 0:12:48.840 looked upon as far as an idea of basically supporting 0:12:48.920 --> 0:12:51.480 himself something that he could invest. 0:12:52.040 --> 0:12:53.959 He wanted to invest his money, invest his. 0:12:53.960 --> 0:12:56.400 Money, get some sort of return on that to set 0:12:56.480 --> 0:12:58.720 himself up a little bit more for the future. 0:12:58.920 --> 0:13:01.480 The future because he realized he probably couldn't run the 0:13:01.559 --> 0:13:04.880 gym's mowing franchise or anything, because he his back was shot. Yeah, 0:13:04.960 --> 0:13:08.040 and yeah, a terrible thing. So here's your friend. He's 0:13:08.080 --> 0:13:11.520 got some money, he's got a nice new car, but 0:13:11.640 --> 0:13:13.600 he knows that it's not going to last if he 0:13:13.640 --> 0:13:17.080 can't invest in and get a return. So he looks 0:13:17.120 --> 0:13:19.440 around to invest his money and get a return. 0:13:20.200 --> 0:13:25.240 What happened then, So he basically invested his money with 0:13:26.360 --> 0:13:30.640 a friend that he knew, somebody. I had no knowledge 0:13:30.640 --> 0:13:34.959 of this person, although I did find out a lot later, 0:13:35.800 --> 0:13:40.240 but at that stage he invested money. Now, I'm of 0:13:40.520 --> 0:13:44.800 probably the old school where I had no idea it 0:13:44.840 --> 0:13:47.400 was Brian's business. I didn't ask him about how much 0:13:47.440 --> 0:13:51.040 it was or who he invested with, but that's what 0:13:51.080 --> 0:13:52.040 he was looking at doing. 0:13:52.280 --> 0:13:54.959 It was a hangover from his previous life. He'd been 0:13:55.000 --> 0:13:57.440 a tradesman, Yes, that's where he joined the job. 0:13:57.679 --> 0:13:59.600 He was a chippy for a long time. 0:13:59.480 --> 0:14:01.800 And he would have met and known quite a lot 0:14:01.840 --> 0:14:04.480 of people. Yeah, as a trades have been working on 0:14:04.520 --> 0:14:07.640 construction sites, you met all the other trades. Yeah, and 0:14:07.720 --> 0:14:10.360 various people as supply things and so on. So we 0:14:10.520 --> 0:14:12.400 know quite a lot of people in that area. 0:14:12.520 --> 0:14:13.199 Yeah, that's right. 0:14:13.240 --> 0:14:16.800 And one of them, we would think is the person 0:14:16.800 --> 0:14:17.600 that he invested with. 0:14:18.040 --> 0:14:23.240 Correct, This person obviously had a few people invest with him. 0:14:23.280 --> 0:14:27.160 Right, he canvassed. But yeah, he had a project. He 0:14:27.200 --> 0:14:28.040 had an idea. 0:14:28.200 --> 0:14:30.880 I believe it was something to do with the commercial 0:14:31.200 --> 0:14:36.040 drainage system, something along those lines. But the month before 0:14:36.720 --> 0:14:40.400 Brian was actually murdered, he came around to our house. 0:14:40.440 --> 0:14:43.120 We'd moved into a new home. Brian came around. 0:14:43.240 --> 0:14:46.120 Even Brian came to your house. Yep, So even with. 0:14:46.080 --> 0:14:48.480 All the pain that he was going through, he actually 0:14:48.520 --> 0:14:51.720 helped me put up our clothesline. Did he We sat 0:14:51.760 --> 0:14:54.640 down afterwards, having a few drinks, and he told me 0:14:54.720 --> 0:14:57.800 then that he was basically asking this guy for the 0:14:57.920 --> 0:15:00.800 for the money back. Even at that stage I had 0:15:00.920 --> 0:15:04.280 no idea how much he invested with this person. But 0:15:04.720 --> 0:15:07.600 that was the month before, and he said he was 0:15:07.640 --> 0:15:09.200 asking for this money back. 0:15:10.000 --> 0:15:12.880 Right, And it didn't really register then that it was 0:15:12.920 --> 0:15:17.640 particularly particularly a problem. No, No, he wasn't really upset 0:15:17.680 --> 0:15:18.040 about it. 0:15:18.120 --> 0:15:22.440 No. I had again no knowledge of who it was 0:15:22.880 --> 0:15:23.960 all the amount. 0:15:23.840 --> 0:15:27.280 But bryan demeanor was not He wasn't distressed about it. 0:15:27.280 --> 0:15:30.200 No, No, it was just having a normal conversation over 0:15:30.240 --> 0:15:33.480 a few drinks and he said, yeah, I looked obviously 0:15:33.800 --> 0:15:37.040 not going too well. I'm asking for the money back, right. 0:15:38.560 --> 0:15:42.520 But as you found out, to your shock and horror, 0:15:42.560 --> 0:15:45.080 the night the Friday night you went to the Sea bull, Yeah, 0:15:45.160 --> 0:15:49.760 it ended in Yeah, blood, sweat and tears. Yeah, a 0:15:49.800 --> 0:15:53.160 lot of blood. You contacted the police, didn't you, Yeah, 0:15:53.160 --> 0:15:57.800 because the police didn't know who did it initially, No, so, 0:15:58.640 --> 0:15:59.640 and you had an idea. 0:16:00.040 --> 0:16:04.480 Well, I basically it was probably a week later. We 0:16:04.480 --> 0:16:07.200 were still waiting. Obviously the croenter had Brian's body, so 0:16:07.240 --> 0:16:11.080 there was no funeral. Was still waiting to hear of 0:16:11.160 --> 0:16:15.360 things and find out more information. But yeah, I ran 0:16:15.440 --> 0:16:20.400 crime stoppers. I spoke to a female detective who rang and. 0:16:20.240 --> 0:16:21.560 They took notice of you. Yeah. 0:16:21.600 --> 0:16:24.120 I wanted to explain to her that although I didn't 0:16:24.160 --> 0:16:27.480 have a suspect in mind, I wanted her to understand 0:16:27.680 --> 0:16:31.680 who Brian was, even though he was no longer a 0:16:31.680 --> 0:16:35.120 prison officer. Once you're an officer, you're always an officer. 0:16:35.200 --> 0:16:36.320 You have what does that mean? 0:16:36.560 --> 0:16:40.520 You have that personality? You have that basically the understanding 0:16:40.600 --> 0:16:44.120 that you keep people at a distance. Trusting people is 0:16:44.360 --> 0:16:48.000 very very difficult, and you want them. Yeah, you basically, 0:16:48.120 --> 0:16:50.760 keep people in your peripheral all the time. You don't 0:16:51.080 --> 0:16:52.240 turn your back on anyone. 0:16:52.320 --> 0:16:55.320 What you were telling the police officer or reminding them, 0:16:55.440 --> 0:16:58.680 is that because of his years as a prison officer, 0:16:59.000 --> 0:17:02.920 Brian wasn't the sort a bloke that would have somebody 0:17:02.960 --> 0:17:06.639 that he perceived to be a danger or possible potential danger, 0:17:07.160 --> 0:17:10.399 or a stranger up close and personal. He wouldn't have 0:17:10.480 --> 0:17:14.000 them behind him. He would he'd keep them inside, but 0:17:14.040 --> 0:17:16.679 he'd have all those little tricks that you blogs have 0:17:17.080 --> 0:17:19.399 as do bounce of security guys. You see it with 0:17:19.680 --> 0:17:22.560 people in that business. They're always watchful. They got their 0:17:22.560 --> 0:17:25.280 head on a stick moving and Brian was like that. 0:17:26.200 --> 0:17:29.199 So therefore you deduced, and you told the police this. 0:17:29.560 --> 0:17:33.080 You deduced that whoever did this was someone he knew well, 0:17:33.640 --> 0:17:34.400 that he trusted. 0:17:34.720 --> 0:17:35.120 Correct. 0:17:35.720 --> 0:17:41.439 That then gave them the idea that perhaps they should 0:17:41.440 --> 0:17:44.880 look at people he knew well, not a random thing 0:17:45.040 --> 0:17:46.600 or somebody he didn't know well. 0:17:46.720 --> 0:17:51.359 That and the fact that it involved money involved. I 0:17:51.400 --> 0:17:53.720 had no idea, but certainly I assumed it would have 0:17:53.720 --> 0:17:56.680 been a large amount of money he would have invested. 0:17:57.000 --> 0:18:00.239 But as I said, I think six figures. Brian, like 0:18:00.280 --> 0:18:04.160 all officers. We become hyper vigilant. You see threats everywhere, 0:18:04.480 --> 0:18:06.959 so for him to turn his back, and it was 0:18:08.000 --> 0:18:10.280 after that that I think it was a week later 0:18:10.359 --> 0:18:14.360 they basically made an arrest. We then had the funeral. 0:18:14.920 --> 0:18:18.480 I actually got approached by officers from where he worked, 0:18:18.480 --> 0:18:23.680 from Port Phillip, and they spoke to me. After the funeral, 0:18:23.760 --> 0:18:28.320 I told a funny story about Brian. We actually I 0:18:28.359 --> 0:18:31.359 actually got him a tour of the prison. I was 0:18:31.400 --> 0:18:35.560 working at Melbourne Assessment Prison at the time and he 0:18:35.600 --> 0:18:38.080 basically came in for a tour and showed him around. 0:18:38.359 --> 0:18:42.160 We both knew a few prisoners there and that. But 0:18:42.400 --> 0:18:45.640 after the funeral, I actually got approached by officers from 0:18:45.640 --> 0:18:48.639 Port Phillip who said, if we ever get hold of 0:18:48.680 --> 0:18:50.879 this guy, and I said to him, I'll stop you 0:18:51.000 --> 0:18:54.040 right there. Do not tell me. I do not want 0:18:54.040 --> 0:18:57.200 to know. As far as and I stayed away from 0:18:57.600 --> 0:19:00.480 the trial. I stayed away from a lot of it 0:19:00.960 --> 0:19:05.520 because I didn't want this person having influence over my 0:19:05.640 --> 0:19:07.920 emotions and making own decisions. 0:19:07.440 --> 0:19:10.000 That would affect very wise in the long run. 0:19:10.720 --> 0:19:14.400 And the only thing I wanted management to know where 0:19:14.440 --> 0:19:17.679 I was working was just simply who this person was 0:19:18.720 --> 0:19:21.480 and the fact that I asked he not be sent 0:19:21.560 --> 0:19:25.880 to that prison, okay, and they basically said, don't worry 0:19:25.920 --> 0:19:27.080 as long as you're working here. 0:19:27.200 --> 0:19:29.560 He had not come here and not come here. That 0:19:29.640 --> 0:19:31.760 was very very good of them, really, it was. 0:19:31.880 --> 0:19:35.960 Yeah, I really appreciated that. I didn't know how I 0:19:36.280 --> 0:19:39.000 would react to come face to face with his killer. 0:19:39.240 --> 0:19:43.160 Just to go back to the crime, this central crime, 0:19:43.160 --> 0:19:45.800 a crime that's really affected your life and made you 0:19:45.920 --> 0:19:49.920 decide to write this book indirectly, what happened with it. 0:19:50.440 --> 0:19:53.840 He's invested the money, the guy with the money with 0:19:53.920 --> 0:19:57.720 his project drainage game or whatever, it hasn't worked or 0:19:57.760 --> 0:20:01.320 he hasn't got the money to pay in back. What 0:20:01.520 --> 0:20:02.840 came to a head? What happened? 0:20:03.080 --> 0:20:06.439 So during the trial, it came out that he basically 0:20:06.520 --> 0:20:11.239 went around to speak to Brian and he used to 0:20:11.960 --> 0:20:14.760 a ruse to basically go and use the toilet. He 0:20:14.800 --> 0:20:18.560 then came out claimed that the toilet wasn't flushing right. 0:20:18.760 --> 0:20:20.720 Brian went in to actually have a look at it, 0:20:21.359 --> 0:20:24.240 and this guy grabbed a knife from the kitchen, stabbed 0:20:24.280 --> 0:20:27.040 Brian in the back, so back and neck about thirty 0:20:27.040 --> 0:20:27.639 four times. 0:20:27.720 --> 0:20:31.639 So this was at least to that extent. It was 0:20:31.680 --> 0:20:34.280 a planned attack. I mean, whether he planned it for 0:20:34.720 --> 0:20:37.560 two days or two weeks or two minutes, he planned 0:20:37.560 --> 0:20:39.520 it to get him to get step into the toilet 0:20:39.560 --> 0:20:41.400 and do that with a ruse. He's a plan. 0:20:41.920 --> 0:20:44.000 I can't comment. I don't know. 0:20:44.200 --> 0:20:47.400 Clearly, even if it's only a short term thing he did. Yeah, 0:20:47.480 --> 0:20:49.639 he wasn't you know, we had an argument and then 0:20:49.680 --> 0:20:51.920 we start hitting each other. It wasn't that. 0:20:52.160 --> 0:20:54.560 The only thing I would say is that during the trial, 0:20:55.320 --> 0:20:58.960 his defense team trying to use an alleged story that 0:20:59.359 --> 0:21:05.080 Brian had threatened this person's children, and the judge basically 0:21:05.119 --> 0:21:09.040 saw it for what it was, completely fanciful, that he 0:21:09.119 --> 0:21:12.320 never made any threats and all of that, and a 0:21:12.320 --> 0:21:15.760 as a result, he ended up with twenty eight years 0:21:16.640 --> 0:21:19.480 I think around twenty two twenty three on the bottom 0:21:19.520 --> 0:21:23.720 as far as but yeah, twenty eight years maximum. 0:21:24.000 --> 0:21:27.879 Most of the rest of his life he'll be yeah, yeah, 0:21:28.240 --> 0:21:29.960 he'll come out a very old man, if he comes 0:21:30.000 --> 0:21:30.520 out at all. 0:21:30.600 --> 0:21:34.240 But I think for myself that the night Brian was murdered, 0:21:34.400 --> 0:21:38.760 it was like it wasn't something broke inside me. It 0:21:38.840 --> 0:21:41.520 was like a spark or a light just went out. 0:21:42.400 --> 0:21:46.200 I had a lot of grief and guilt after the funeral, 0:21:46.400 --> 0:21:51.639 after all the trial. And that's basically I didn't have 0:21:51.640 --> 0:21:54.560 my friend that I could speak to anymore. I couldn't 0:21:54.640 --> 0:21:58.040 ring him and tell him about my day or did 0:21:58.080 --> 0:22:01.040 the assault or an incident at work or anything like that. 0:22:01.400 --> 0:22:03.960 So I would wake at two three o'clock in the 0:22:04.000 --> 0:22:08.359 morning and start writing notes on that on my phone 0:22:08.520 --> 0:22:11.720 as a way of still talking to him. Yes, and 0:22:11.800 --> 0:22:16.080 that's what ultimately led to writing the actual book. 0:22:16.119 --> 0:22:18.440 The book is a long letter to your dead mate, 0:22:18.480 --> 0:22:20.000 is Well. 0:22:20.040 --> 0:22:23.080 It's inspired by his story. I like to think of 0:22:23.160 --> 0:22:27.000 it as telling his story. He was someone that mattered 0:22:27.760 --> 0:22:31.239 as all correction offices, what we do and what we 0:22:31.280 --> 0:22:31.840 go through. 0:22:32.640 --> 0:22:35.800 It's very hard your book justifying the means. It's how 0:22:35.840 --> 0:22:38.600