1 00:00:01,560 --> 00:00:04,800 Speaker 1: He worked with portfil of prison and I explained I 2 00:00:04,840 --> 00:00:08,600 Speaker 1: was with Corrections Victorious, so we both knew the same job, 3 00:00:08,920 --> 00:00:12,040 Speaker 1: we knew the same prisoners, so we did work. 4 00:00:12,520 --> 00:00:14,960 Speaker 2: Your book is really the memoir of a screw dog Maggott. 5 00:00:15,840 --> 00:00:18,439 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, it was funny like that, as you. 6 00:00:18,560 --> 00:00:22,079 Speaker 2: Found out, to your shock and horror the night the 7 00:00:22,120 --> 00:00:24,640 Speaker 2: Friday night you went to the sea Ballah. It ended 8 00:00:24,960 --> 00:00:29,280 Speaker 2: in blood, sweat and tears. Yeah, a lot of blood. 9 00:00:29,960 --> 00:00:32,960 Speaker 2: I'm Andrew Rule is his life in crimes. Today. We 10 00:00:33,120 --> 00:00:37,880 Speaker 2: have another author in the studio which is a bit 11 00:00:37,880 --> 00:00:41,080 Speaker 2: different from the usual author because this author he's a 12 00:00:41,120 --> 00:00:45,800 Speaker 2: first time author, and actually he is a lifetime prison officer. 13 00:00:46,159 --> 00:00:49,519 Speaker 2: He is known in the system by the younger officers 14 00:00:49,560 --> 00:00:52,920 Speaker 2: as a dinosaur because he's done more than twenty years 15 00:00:53,280 --> 00:00:55,880 Speaker 2: in one of the toughest jobs that you can do. 16 00:00:56,480 --> 00:01:00,520 Speaker 2: I would suggest his pen name is Bruce McLeod. It's 17 00:01:00,560 --> 00:01:02,880 Speaker 2: not his real name. We won't use his real name 18 00:01:02,920 --> 00:01:06,560 Speaker 2: because that would be a giveaway. The authorities take a 19 00:01:06,560 --> 00:01:09,200 Speaker 2: dim view of prison officers using their real names when 20 00:01:09,200 --> 00:01:12,920 Speaker 2: they do interviews and things, and so Bruce will be 21 00:01:13,080 --> 00:01:17,160 Speaker 2: fairly tentative about some aspects of what he talks about. 22 00:01:17,760 --> 00:01:22,160 Speaker 2: But he's going to tell us the reason he wrote 23 00:01:22,840 --> 00:01:28,600 Speaker 2: his book, which has been recently published. It's called Justifying 24 00:01:28,840 --> 00:01:33,759 Speaker 2: the Means, and he was prompted to do this probably 25 00:01:34,080 --> 00:01:38,560 Speaker 2: by the sudden death of a very good friend. Bruce. 26 00:01:38,680 --> 00:01:44,080 Speaker 2: Welcome to our humble studio. Tell us about the death 27 00:01:44,120 --> 00:01:46,039 Speaker 2: of your friend and how you heard about it. 28 00:01:46,800 --> 00:01:51,640 Speaker 1: Thank you, Andrew. Well, Brian was my best friend, almost 29 00:01:51,720 --> 00:01:54,000 Speaker 1: like a brother to me because we had that shared 30 00:01:54,040 --> 00:01:57,880 Speaker 1: experience of working in corrections. Yep, it was a Friday 31 00:01:57,960 --> 00:02:00,240 Speaker 1: night we were traveling into My wife and I were 32 00:02:00,240 --> 00:02:02,520 Speaker 1: traveling into the city to stay for the weekend, and 33 00:02:02,560 --> 00:02:05,680 Speaker 1: it was also a chance to catch up with Brian 34 00:02:06,040 --> 00:02:07,200 Speaker 1: and his wife as well. 35 00:02:08,320 --> 00:02:09,640 Speaker 2: So how long ago is this? 36 00:02:10,600 --> 00:02:13,240 Speaker 1: Two thousand and eighteen. 37 00:02:13,040 --> 00:02:15,680 Speaker 2: Just before COVID, a couple of years before. 38 00:02:16,639 --> 00:02:20,400 Speaker 1: So we were driving into the city from the west 39 00:02:21,200 --> 00:02:24,240 Speaker 1: from down Geelong Way, so basically traveling in. We were 40 00:02:24,280 --> 00:02:27,960 Speaker 1: staying at the Sebel in Flinders Lane. So as we 41 00:02:28,000 --> 00:02:32,000 Speaker 1: came over the Westgate Bridge on the Friday night, as 42 00:02:32,040 --> 00:02:35,640 Speaker 1: we normally would tune into the Channel nine news that 43 00:02:35,680 --> 00:02:39,720 Speaker 1: were similar cast on FM radio, and that's when I 44 00:02:39,760 --> 00:02:42,960 Speaker 1: heard what did you hear? Man's body was found at 45 00:02:42,960 --> 00:02:44,120 Speaker 1: moreency that. 46 00:02:44,080 --> 00:02:46,960 Speaker 2: Would interest you because you knew your friend lived at. 47 00:02:47,600 --> 00:02:52,160 Speaker 1: That's correct, And at that stage my initial thought was, 48 00:02:52,320 --> 00:02:56,160 Speaker 1: I wonder if Brian knew who this person was. They 49 00:02:56,200 --> 00:03:00,040 Speaker 1: then basically mentioned the street name, and that's when it 50 00:03:00,120 --> 00:03:04,360 Speaker 1: hit me that I thought my body just instinctively knew 51 00:03:04,919 --> 00:03:09,440 Speaker 1: it was Brian. I couldn't describe it. It was just 52 00:03:09,480 --> 00:03:13,480 Speaker 1: a feeling of something. Yeah, it was just something about 53 00:03:13,560 --> 00:03:15,800 Speaker 1: that the story in the way it was announced that 54 00:03:16,360 --> 00:03:17,680 Speaker 1: I thought it was him, and you. 55 00:03:17,680 --> 00:03:18,920 Speaker 2: Were right, it was. 56 00:03:19,200 --> 00:03:24,000 Speaker 1: Yeah. Immediately my wife basically started to call his mobile 57 00:03:24,120 --> 00:03:27,600 Speaker 1: number than his wife's number. All we got was just 58 00:03:27,800 --> 00:03:30,920 Speaker 1: answering messages. We were sending text messages. We were trying 59 00:03:30,919 --> 00:03:34,239 Speaker 1: to contact other people in regards to had they heard 60 00:03:34,240 --> 00:03:36,920 Speaker 1: the news and had they heard from from Brian or 61 00:03:36,960 --> 00:03:40,520 Speaker 1: his wife. We kept driving. It was hard to describe 62 00:03:40,520 --> 00:03:43,880 Speaker 1: because I couldn't I can't even remember how I got 63 00:03:43,880 --> 00:03:47,839 Speaker 1: to the hotel. We had a feeling of dread absolutely, 64 00:03:48,200 --> 00:03:51,720 Speaker 1: and at that stage we checked in, raced upstairs to 65 00:03:51,800 --> 00:03:54,920 Speaker 1: our room and switched on the TV to try and 66 00:03:54,960 --> 00:03:58,680 Speaker 1: get more information. We were doing searches on Google, anything 67 00:03:58,720 --> 00:04:01,280 Speaker 1: that we could get right to just basically give us 68 00:04:01,280 --> 00:04:03,920 Speaker 1: a little bit more in detail about what had happened, 69 00:04:03,960 --> 00:04:07,640 Speaker 1: and then what happened next. We eventually saw the late 70 00:04:07,680 --> 00:04:11,840 Speaker 1: news on Channel nine that night, and the images that. 71 00:04:11,960 --> 00:04:13,600 Speaker 2: Still for your weekend in the city. 72 00:04:13,800 --> 00:04:18,000 Speaker 1: Yeah, but the images still burned into my memory, and 73 00:04:18,040 --> 00:04:22,880 Speaker 1: that was the female officer leading Brian's wife out from. 74 00:04:22,680 --> 00:04:24,240 Speaker 2: The house, who you recognized. 75 00:04:24,279 --> 00:04:27,400 Speaker 1: I recognized straight away. I recognized the house, her car, 76 00:04:27,920 --> 00:04:31,719 Speaker 1: and she's been let out, and I just sunk to 77 00:04:31,760 --> 00:04:36,520 Speaker 1: my knees and realized that was when my whole world 78 00:04:36,800 --> 00:04:37,440 Speaker 1: just changed. 79 00:04:37,680 --> 00:04:41,080 Speaker 2: Right now, Brian had been murdered. 80 00:04:42,400 --> 00:04:45,680 Speaker 1: At that stage, I didn't realize. It wasn't until much 81 00:04:45,760 --> 00:04:48,800 Speaker 1: later in the evening that we've got a phone call 82 00:04:48,880 --> 00:04:52,880 Speaker 1: from his wife. She'd actually stepped out of the police station. 83 00:04:53,279 --> 00:04:58,320 Speaker 1: Obviously she had been there doing interviews with detectives, but 84 00:04:58,440 --> 00:05:02,279 Speaker 1: she stepped out for a cigarette. Rang our first thought 85 00:05:02,400 --> 00:05:06,919 Speaker 1: was what happened. She basically described the fact that she 86 00:05:07,040 --> 00:05:11,239 Speaker 1: went around there to find him, and I can still 87 00:05:11,360 --> 00:05:13,800 Speaker 1: almost hear it in my mind, you know, her words 88 00:05:13,839 --> 00:05:16,800 Speaker 1: saying there was just so much blood, so much blood, 89 00:05:17,400 --> 00:05:20,440 Speaker 1: and it was haunting at that stage to realize that, 90 00:05:20,839 --> 00:05:24,359 Speaker 1: you know, we still didn't know if he'd taken his 91 00:05:24,440 --> 00:05:28,320 Speaker 1: own life or if he was murdered, But the more 92 00:05:28,360 --> 00:05:31,760 Speaker 1: and more news came out about it, and we understood 93 00:05:31,760 --> 00:05:34,080 Speaker 1: then at that stage he was murdered. 94 00:05:34,320 --> 00:05:36,320 Speaker 2: Yeah, and the fact that there was so much blood 95 00:05:36,320 --> 00:05:40,480 Speaker 2: would suggest that it's done with a sharp instrument, which 96 00:05:41,080 --> 00:05:44,760 Speaker 2: is possibly It's not impossible to get itself with a knife. 97 00:05:44,880 --> 00:05:50,520 Speaker 1: No, but yeah, the way in which he actually was 98 00:05:50,640 --> 00:05:54,000 Speaker 1: murdered was quite brutal and horrific, right, And that those 99 00:05:54,040 --> 00:05:57,520 Speaker 1: details came out obviously during the trial later on, But 100 00:05:58,600 --> 00:06:01,479 Speaker 1: that that period where we were sort of finding out 101 00:06:01,520 --> 00:06:05,839 Speaker 1: about bits and pieces of information, obviously your mind starts 102 00:06:05,920 --> 00:06:10,480 Speaker 1: racing as far as all the ifs and what happened, 103 00:06:10,480 --> 00:06:12,919 Speaker 1: and you try and start to put things together. 104 00:06:13,279 --> 00:06:16,560 Speaker 2: I know we've chatted earlier about how we should tell 105 00:06:16,880 --> 00:06:20,440 Speaker 2: your story or your stories, but I think now our 106 00:06:20,440 --> 00:06:22,640 Speaker 2: listeners will probably want to know how you knew Brian 107 00:06:23,240 --> 00:06:26,440 Speaker 2: and then find out what happened, what led up to this. 108 00:06:26,960 --> 00:06:31,719 Speaker 2: You were both employed as prison officers at different prisons, 109 00:06:32,200 --> 00:06:34,520 Speaker 2: different systems. You've had that in common, but you didn't 110 00:06:34,520 --> 00:06:37,640 Speaker 2: actually work shoulder to shoulder. No, but you were great 111 00:06:37,680 --> 00:06:41,839 Speaker 2: friends because you worked in the same yeah profession. Yeah, absolutely, 112 00:06:42,360 --> 00:06:43,479 Speaker 2: How and when did you meet? 113 00:06:44,000 --> 00:06:46,159 Speaker 1: Very funny story. Two thousand and six. 114 00:06:46,320 --> 00:06:48,240 Speaker 2: Yep, it's almost twenty years ago. 115 00:06:48,279 --> 00:06:51,880 Speaker 1: Now, yeah, we first met. We're at a pub one night. 116 00:06:52,560 --> 00:06:54,760 Speaker 1: Back in those days, I actually smoked myself. So we 117 00:06:54,760 --> 00:06:58,280 Speaker 1: were up at a rooftop bar. My wife had gone 118 00:06:58,279 --> 00:07:01,520 Speaker 1: to the bar to get a drink. She'd been gone 119 00:07:01,520 --> 00:07:05,520 Speaker 1: for a couple of minutes, so obviously I went looking 120 00:07:05,560 --> 00:07:09,200 Speaker 1: for her, found her talking to Brian's wife and went 121 00:07:09,320 --> 00:07:12,480 Speaker 1: up and my wife introduced to her to me and 122 00:07:12,600 --> 00:07:15,240 Speaker 1: we had a bit of a chat. Next thing, I 123 00:07:15,280 --> 00:07:19,640 Speaker 1: got bumped in the back from behind, and I had 124 00:07:19,640 --> 00:07:25,040 Speaker 1: this hot breath in my ear good a screwed dog, maggot, 125 00:07:26,560 --> 00:07:31,880 Speaker 1: and my world just basically tunnel vision. Then I immediately 126 00:07:31,920 --> 00:07:34,440 Speaker 1: thought it's the next prisoner who was basically going to 127 00:07:34,600 --> 00:07:37,720 Speaker 1: take a swing at me, And turned around and found 128 00:07:37,760 --> 00:07:41,440 Speaker 1: this guy standing there who was six foot four, probably 129 00:07:41,480 --> 00:07:44,400 Speaker 1: one hundred and fifty kilos, built like a brick shit house, 130 00:07:45,480 --> 00:07:49,080 Speaker 1: and they had this massive cheesy grin on his face. 131 00:07:49,080 --> 00:07:51,440 Speaker 2: So you knew he wasn't And yeah, I. 132 00:07:51,440 --> 00:07:55,840 Speaker 1: Realized then he'd stitched me up, and he explained, Yeah, 133 00:07:55,920 --> 00:07:58,920 Speaker 1: he explained. Then he worked in the private sector, so 134 00:07:58,960 --> 00:08:02,160 Speaker 1: he worked with port Fillip prison and I explained I 135 00:08:02,200 --> 00:08:05,960 Speaker 1: was with Corrections Victorious, so we both knew the same job, 136 00:08:06,280 --> 00:08:09,360 Speaker 1: we knew the same prisoners, so we did work. 137 00:08:09,880 --> 00:08:12,400 Speaker 2: Your book is the Memoir of a screw dog maggot. 138 00:08:13,160 --> 00:08:15,680 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, it was funny like that. I've been caught 139 00:08:15,680 --> 00:08:19,080 Speaker 1: out a couple of times. One other time by another 140 00:08:19,160 --> 00:08:23,600 Speaker 1: officer at a supermarket and yeah, not expecting it and 141 00:08:24,040 --> 00:08:25,120 Speaker 1: scarce of ship out of here. 142 00:08:25,280 --> 00:08:27,120 Speaker 2: You hear about cop humor, but the. 143 00:08:29,680 --> 00:08:33,600 Speaker 1: Our humored tends to run very very dark. 144 00:08:33,520 --> 00:08:36,760 Speaker 2: Very dark, so you hit it straight off with him 145 00:08:36,800 --> 00:08:39,160 Speaker 2: this but two very different men. Yeah. 146 00:08:39,520 --> 00:08:43,120 Speaker 1: I think our friendship really grew by the fact that 147 00:08:43,400 --> 00:08:47,440 Speaker 1: we did work at different locations. We understood the system, 148 00:08:47,720 --> 00:08:51,120 Speaker 1: we understood the role and what we would actually achieve, 149 00:08:51,880 --> 00:08:56,040 Speaker 1: but we were separated by those work locations that we 150 00:08:56,080 --> 00:08:59,880 Speaker 1: could vent to each other, okay, and we knew that 151 00:09:00,080 --> 00:09:03,239 Speaker 1: information's not going to get back to the actual workplace. 152 00:09:04,800 --> 00:09:08,280 Speaker 1: And that was fantastic because this is a job that 153 00:09:08,320 --> 00:09:10,560 Speaker 1: you need to vent, you need to event to people 154 00:09:10,559 --> 00:09:14,920 Speaker 1: that understood the standard family don't realize what it is 155 00:09:14,960 --> 00:09:17,840 Speaker 1: that you do, what you go through, what you see 156 00:09:17,920 --> 00:09:21,920 Speaker 1: and hear, an experience and in some aspects of the job, 157 00:09:22,679 --> 00:09:26,000 Speaker 1: it's almost unthinkable as what you actually go through and 158 00:09:26,040 --> 00:09:27,040 Speaker 1: see and experience. 159 00:09:27,400 --> 00:09:29,480 Speaker 2: So they become very good friends. 160 00:09:29,600 --> 00:09:33,200 Speaker 1: Yeah, so to talk to someone like that, we became 161 00:09:33,679 --> 00:09:37,360 Speaker 1: best friends. We became almost like brothers. We never walked 162 00:09:38,000 --> 00:09:42,040 Speaker 1: the same tears, but we experienced the same things. So 163 00:09:42,080 --> 00:09:46,440 Speaker 1: we understood fears. Yeah, we understood each other so well. 164 00:09:47,040 --> 00:09:51,200 Speaker 2: And unnecessary relationship in your business. Yeah. Yeah. 165 00:09:51,280 --> 00:09:54,720 Speaker 1: He was someone that no matter how bad my day was, 166 00:09:54,880 --> 00:09:58,040 Speaker 1: I could talk to him and he would make things better. 167 00:09:58,160 --> 00:10:02,480 Speaker 2: Now he's happy, go lucky, good company, is a man mountain. 168 00:10:02,800 --> 00:10:04,600 Speaker 2: There's a lot to like about it. Bluck like that 169 00:10:04,800 --> 00:10:08,880 Speaker 2: in your business and he failure with joy and confidence 170 00:10:08,920 --> 00:10:10,679 Speaker 2: and all sorts of things. What happened? 171 00:10:10,760 --> 00:10:13,880 Speaker 1: What went wrong for Brian? He was the sort of 172 00:10:13,880 --> 00:10:17,240 Speaker 1: guy that, obviously, through that role, he would jump in 173 00:10:17,480 --> 00:10:22,120 Speaker 1: and help anyone. So one day while at Port Phillip, 174 00:10:22,440 --> 00:10:27,080 Speaker 1: he was basically running to someone's aid another officer up 175 00:10:27,120 --> 00:10:30,520 Speaker 1: on a tier. Yep, he got jumped from behind, ended 176 00:10:30,600 --> 00:10:33,360 Speaker 1: up falling downstairs and hurt his back. 177 00:10:33,960 --> 00:10:37,199 Speaker 2: And a big heavy man falling downstairs is not a 178 00:10:37,880 --> 00:10:41,120 Speaker 2: great thing. Your own size is against you. Yeah, because 179 00:10:41,120 --> 00:10:42,079 Speaker 2: you fall harder. 180 00:10:42,360 --> 00:10:44,760 Speaker 1: Yeah, well that's correct. I think he went through something 181 00:10:44,840 --> 00:10:47,800 Speaker 1: like about four back operations. But at the end of 182 00:10:47,880 --> 00:10:51,360 Speaker 1: that doctors then told him he would never work again. 183 00:10:52,120 --> 00:10:56,760 Speaker 1: But as a result of that incident and being attacked 184 00:10:56,760 --> 00:10:59,680 Speaker 1: and then his injuries, he ended up with a massive 185 00:10:59,679 --> 00:11:04,240 Speaker 1: payout out from g fours, who basically run Port Phillip Prison. 186 00:11:05,160 --> 00:11:08,560 Speaker 1: So as a result of being told you're never going 187 00:11:08,640 --> 00:11:11,080 Speaker 1: to work again, he was in constant pain. If he 188 00:11:11,160 --> 00:11:13,720 Speaker 1: sat too long, he had to stand because he was 189 00:11:13,760 --> 00:11:16,200 Speaker 1: in pain. If you stood too long, he had to 190 00:11:16,240 --> 00:11:17,640 Speaker 1: sit down because he was in pain. 191 00:11:17,960 --> 00:11:20,440 Speaker 2: And so that did you see the change in him? 192 00:11:20,880 --> 00:11:26,520 Speaker 1: Yeah, he basically he did change. He became probably a 193 00:11:26,559 --> 00:11:29,960 Speaker 1: little bit more isolated, only having sort of close friends 194 00:11:29,960 --> 00:11:33,520 Speaker 1: and that around people that understood what he was going through. 195 00:11:33,960 --> 00:11:36,719 Speaker 2: We're sorry. When this happened, this would be. 196 00:11:36,960 --> 00:11:39,760 Speaker 1: Two three years before the before Yeah. 197 00:11:39,840 --> 00:11:42,520 Speaker 2: Yeah, so this is roughly twenty fifteen or something like that. 198 00:11:42,600 --> 00:11:43,760 Speaker 1: Yeah, something like that. I think. 199 00:11:44,040 --> 00:11:46,800 Speaker 2: So he gets a payout. So you know, he's assaulted 200 00:11:46,840 --> 00:11:49,520 Speaker 2: in jail. It does happen. You don't always get that 201 00:11:49,600 --> 00:11:52,520 Speaker 2: badly hurt when but he did, and he couldn't sit, 202 00:11:52,600 --> 00:11:55,800 Speaker 2: he couldn't work. It did Buggery's life up. He gets 203 00:11:55,800 --> 00:11:58,560 Speaker 2: a payout. Now, when you say a massive payout, not 204 00:11:58,800 --> 00:12:02,840 Speaker 2: a life changing just something that covered, you know, not 205 00:12:02,880 --> 00:12:04,200 Speaker 2: the sort of thing where you can go buy a 206 00:12:04,200 --> 00:12:04,800 Speaker 2: house with it. 207 00:12:05,240 --> 00:12:08,959 Speaker 1: No. No, he got a massive payout in the sense 208 00:12:09,000 --> 00:12:11,760 Speaker 1: that it wasn't as large as what he thought, but 209 00:12:11,880 --> 00:12:14,920 Speaker 1: the payout ensured that they would pay for all his 210 00:12:15,040 --> 00:12:20,320 Speaker 1: medical expenses in the future. Right, so that he did 211 00:12:20,360 --> 00:12:23,240 Speaker 1: go out and buy a brand new land cruise. I 212 00:12:23,240 --> 00:12:25,160 Speaker 1: think he spent one hundred and twenty thousand on that 213 00:12:25,520 --> 00:12:27,720 Speaker 1: and was all kidded out for him. He was an 214 00:12:27,760 --> 00:12:31,080 Speaker 1: outdoors man, He was a fisherman, a hunter. He loved 215 00:12:31,120 --> 00:12:34,200 Speaker 1: the outdoors, love camping, getting away. So there was a 216 00:12:34,240 --> 00:12:37,640 Speaker 1: lot of aspects of his life that just changed in 217 00:12:37,679 --> 00:12:43,040 Speaker 1: that one instance. It was so devastating to him as 218 00:12:43,040 --> 00:12:45,280 Speaker 1: far as not being able to work that he then 219 00:12:45,360 --> 00:12:48,840 Speaker 1: looked upon as far as an idea of basically supporting 220 00:12:48,920 --> 00:12:51,480 Speaker 1: himself something that he could invest. 221 00:12:52,040 --> 00:12:53,959 Speaker 2: He wanted to invest his money, invest his. 222 00:12:53,960 --> 00:12:56,400 Speaker 1: Money, get some sort of return on that to set 223 00:12:56,480 --> 00:12:58,720 Speaker 1: himself up a little bit more for the future. 224 00:12:58,920 --> 00:13:01,480 Speaker 2: The future because he realized he probably couldn't run the 225 00:13:01,559 --> 00:13:04,880 Speaker 2: gym's mowing franchise or anything, because he his back was shot. Yeah, 226 00:13:04,960 --> 00:13:08,040 Speaker 2: and yeah, a terrible thing. So here's your friend. He's 227 00:13:08,080 --> 00:13:11,520 Speaker 2: got some money, he's got a nice new car, but 228 00:13:11,640 --> 00:13:13,600 Speaker 2: he knows that it's not going to last if he 229 00:13:13,640 --> 00:13:17,080 Speaker 2: can't invest in and get a return. So he looks 230 00:13:17,120 --> 00:13:19,440 Speaker 2: around to invest his money and get a return. 231 00:13:20,200 --> 00:13:25,240 Speaker 1: What happened then, So he basically invested his money with 232 00:13:26,360 --> 00:13:30,640 Speaker 1: a friend that he knew, somebody. I had no knowledge 233 00:13:30,640 --> 00:13:34,959 Speaker 1: of this person, although I did find out a lot later, 234 00:13:35,800 --> 00:13:40,240 Speaker 1: but at that stage he invested money. Now, I'm of 235 00:13:40,520 --> 00:13:44,800 Speaker 1: probably the old school where I had no idea it 236 00:13:44,840 --> 00:13:47,400 Speaker 1: was Brian's business. I didn't ask him about how much 237 00:13:47,440 --> 00:13:51,040 Speaker 1: it was or who he invested with, but that's what 238 00:13:51,080 --> 00:13:52,040 Speaker 1: he was looking at doing. 239 00:13:52,280 --> 00:13:54,959 Speaker 2: It was a hangover from his previous life. He'd been 240 00:13:55,000 --> 00:13:57,440 Speaker 2: a tradesman, Yes, that's where he joined the job. 241 00:13:57,679 --> 00:13:59,600 Speaker 1: He was a chippy for a long time. 242 00:13:59,480 --> 00:14:01,800 Speaker 2: And he would have met and known quite a lot 243 00:14:01,840 --> 00:14:04,480 Speaker 2: of people. Yeah, as a trades have been working on 244 00:14:04,520 --> 00:14:07,640 Speaker 2: construction sites, you met all the other trades. Yeah, and 245 00:14:07,720 --> 00:14:10,360 Speaker 2: various people as supply things and so on. So we 246 00:14:10,520 --> 00:14:12,400 Speaker 2: know quite a lot of people in that area. 247 00:14:12,520 --> 00:14:13,199 Speaker 1: Yeah, that's right. 248 00:14:13,240 --> 00:14:16,800 Speaker 2: And one of them, we would think is the person 249 00:14:16,800 --> 00:14:17,600 Speaker 2: that he invested with. 250 00:14:18,040 --> 00:14:23,240 Speaker 1: Correct, This person obviously had a few people invest with him. 251 00:14:23,280 --> 00:14:27,160 Speaker 2: Right, he canvassed. But yeah, he had a project. He 252 00:14:27,200 --> 00:14:28,040 Speaker 2: had an idea. 253 00:14:28,200 --> 00:14:30,880 Speaker 1: I believe it was something to do with the commercial 254 00:14:31,200 --> 00:14:36,040 Speaker 1: drainage system, something along those lines. But the month before 255 00:14:36,720 --> 00:14:40,400 Speaker 1: Brian was actually murdered, he came around to our house. 256 00:14:40,440 --> 00:14:43,120 Speaker 1: We'd moved into a new home. Brian came around. 257 00:14:43,240 --> 00:14:46,120 Speaker 2: Even Brian came to your house. Yep, So even with. 258 00:14:46,080 --> 00:14:48,480 Speaker 1: All the pain that he was going through, he actually 259 00:14:48,520 --> 00:14:51,720 Speaker 1: helped me put up our clothesline. Did he We sat 260 00:14:51,760 --> 00:14:54,640 Speaker 1: down afterwards, having a few drinks, and he told me 261 00:14:54,720 --> 00:14:57,800 Speaker 1: then that he was basically asking this guy for the 262 00:14:57,920 --> 00:15:00,800 Speaker 1: for the money back. Even at that stage I had 263 00:15:00,920 --> 00:15:04,280 Speaker 1: no idea how much he invested with this person. But 264 00:15:04,720 --> 00:15:07,600 Speaker 1: that was the month before, and he said he was 265 00:15:07,640 --> 00:15:09,200 Speaker 1: asking for this money back. 266 00:15:10,000 --> 00:15:12,880 Speaker 2: Right, And it didn't really register then that it was 267 00:15:12,920 --> 00:15:17,640 Speaker 2: particularly particularly a problem. No, No, he wasn't really upset 268 00:15:17,680 --> 00:15:18,040 Speaker 2: about it. 269 00:15:18,120 --> 00:15:22,440 Speaker 1: No. I had again no knowledge of who it was 270 00:15:22,880 --> 00:15:23,960 Speaker 1: all the amount. 271 00:15:23,840 --> 00:15:27,280 Speaker 2: But bryan demeanor was not He wasn't distressed about it. 272 00:15:27,280 --> 00:15:30,200 Speaker 1: No, No, it was just having a normal conversation over 273 00:15:30,240 --> 00:15:33,480 Speaker 1: a few drinks and he said, yeah, I looked obviously 274 00:15:33,800 --> 00:15:37,040 Speaker 1: not going too well. I'm asking for the money back, right. 275 00:15:38,560 --> 00:15:42,520 Speaker 2: But as you found out, to your shock and horror, 276 00:15:42,560 --> 00:15:45,080 Speaker 2: the night the Friday night you went to the Sea bull, Yeah, 277 00:15:45,160 --> 00:15:49,760 Speaker 2: it ended in Yeah, blood, sweat and tears. Yeah, a 278 00:15:49,800 --> 00:15:53,160 Speaker 2: lot of blood. You contacted the police, didn't you, Yeah, 279 00:15:53,160 --> 00:15:57,800 Speaker 2: because the police didn't know who did it initially, No, so, 280 00:15:58,640 --> 00:15:59,640 Speaker 2: and you had an idea. 281 00:16:00,040 --> 00:16:04,480 Speaker 1: Well, I basically it was probably a week later. We 282 00:16:04,480 --> 00:16:07,200 Speaker 1: were still waiting. Obviously the croenter had Brian's body, so 283 00:16:07,240 --> 00:16:11,080 Speaker 1: there was no funeral. Was still waiting to hear of 284 00:16:11,160 --> 00:16:15,360 Speaker 1: things and find out more information. But yeah, I ran 285 00:16:15,440 --> 00:16:20,400 Speaker 1: crime stoppers. I spoke to a female detective who rang and. 286 00:16:20,240 --> 00:16:21,560 Speaker 2: They took notice of you. Yeah. 287 00:16:21,600 --> 00:16:24,120 Speaker 1: I wanted to explain to her that although I didn't 288 00:16:24,160 --> 00:16:27,480 Speaker 1: have a suspect in mind, I wanted her to understand 289 00:16:27,680 --> 00:16:31,680 Speaker 1: who Brian was, even though he was no longer a 290 00:16:31,680 --> 00:16:35,120 Speaker 1: prison officer. Once you're an officer, you're always an officer. 291 00:16:35,200 --> 00:16:36,320 Speaker 2: You have what does that mean? 292 00:16:36,560 --> 00:16:40,520 Speaker 1: You have that personality? You have that basically the understanding 293 00:16:40,600 --> 00:16:44,120 Speaker 1: that you keep people at a distance. Trusting people is 294 00:16:44,360 --> 00:16:48,000 Speaker 1: very very difficult, and you want them. Yeah, you basically, 295 00:16:48,120 --> 00:16:50,760 Speaker 1: keep people in your peripheral all the time. You don't 296 00:16:51,080 --> 00:16:52,240 Speaker 1: turn your back on anyone. 297 00:16:52,320 --> 00:16:55,320 Speaker 2: What you were telling the police officer or reminding them, 298 00:16:55,440 --> 00:16:58,680 Speaker 2: is that because of his years as a prison officer, 299 00:16:59,000 --> 00:17:02,920 Speaker 2: Brian wasn't the sort a bloke that would have somebody 300 00:17:02,960 --> 00:17:06,639 Speaker 2: that he perceived to be a danger or possible potential danger, 301 00:17:07,160 --> 00:17:10,399 Speaker 2: or a stranger up close and personal. He wouldn't have 302 00:17:10,480 --> 00:17:14,000 Speaker 2: them behind him. He would he'd keep them inside, but 303 00:17:14,040 --> 00:17:16,679 Speaker 2: he'd have all those little tricks that you blogs have 304 00:17:17,080 --> 00:17:19,399 Speaker 2: as do bounce of security guys. You see it with 305 00:17:19,680 --> 00:17:22,560 Speaker 2: people in that business. They're always watchful. They got their 306 00:17:22,560 --> 00:17:25,280 Speaker 2: head on a stick moving and Brian was like that. 307 00:17:26,200 --> 00:17:29,199 Speaker 2: So therefore you deduced, and you told the police this. 308 00:17:29,560 --> 00:17:33,080 Speaker 2: You deduced that whoever did this was someone he knew well, 309 00:17:33,640 --> 00:17:34,400 Speaker 2: that he trusted. 310 00:17:34,720 --> 00:17:35,120 Speaker 1: Correct. 311 00:17:35,720 --> 00:17:41,439 Speaker 2: That then gave them the idea that perhaps they should 312 00:17:41,440 --> 00:17:44,880 Speaker 2: look at people he knew well, not a random thing 313 00:17:45,040 --> 00:17:46,600 Speaker 2: or somebody he didn't know well. 314 00:17:46,720 --> 00:17:51,359 Speaker 1: That and the fact that it involved money involved. I 315 00:17:51,400 --> 00:17:53,720 Speaker 1: had no idea, but certainly I assumed it would have 316 00:17:53,720 --> 00:17:56,680 Speaker 1: been a large amount of money he would have invested. 317 00:17:57,000 --> 00:18:00,239 Speaker 1: But as I said, I think six figures. Brian, like 318 00:18:00,280 --> 00:18:04,160 Speaker 1: all officers. We become hyper vigilant. You see threats everywhere, 319 00:18:04,480 --> 00:18:06,959 Speaker 1: so for him to turn his back, and it was 320 00:18:08,000 --> 00:18:10,280 Speaker 1: after that that I think it was a week later 321 00:18:10,359 --> 00:18:14,360 Speaker 1: they basically made an arrest. We then had the funeral. 322 00:18:14,920 --> 00:18:18,480 Speaker 1: I actually got approached by officers from where he worked, 323 00:18:18,480 --> 00:18:23,680 Speaker 1: from Port Phillip, and they spoke to me. After the funeral, 324 00:18:23,760 --> 00:18:28,320 Speaker 1: I told a funny story about Brian. We actually I 325 00:18:28,359 --> 00:18:31,359 Speaker 1: actually got him a tour of the prison. I was 326 00:18:31,400 --> 00:18:35,560 Speaker 1: working at Melbourne Assessment Prison at the time and he 327 00:18:35,600 --> 00:18:38,080 Speaker 1: basically came in for a tour and showed him around. 328 00:18:38,359 --> 00:18:42,160 Speaker 1: We both knew a few prisoners there and that. But 329 00:18:42,400 --> 00:18:45,640 Speaker 1: after the funeral, I actually got approached by officers from 330 00:18:45,640 --> 00:18:48,639 Speaker 1: Port Phillip who said, if we ever get hold of 331 00:18:48,680 --> 00:18:50,879 Speaker 1: this guy, and I said to him, I'll stop you 332 00:18:51,000 --> 00:18:54,040 Speaker 1: right there. Do not tell me. I do not want 333 00:18:54,040 --> 00:18:57,200 Speaker 1: to know. As far as and I stayed away from 334 00:18:57,600 --> 00:19:00,480 Speaker 1: the trial. I stayed away from a lot of it 335 00:19:00,960 --> 00:19:05,520 Speaker 1: because I didn't want this person having influence over my 336 00:19:05,640 --> 00:19:07,920 Speaker 1: emotions and making own decisions. 337 00:19:07,440 --> 00:19:10,000 Speaker 2: That would affect very wise in the long run. 338 00:19:10,720 --> 00:19:14,400 Speaker 1: And the only thing I wanted management to know where 339 00:19:14,440 --> 00:19:17,679 Speaker 1: I was working was just simply who this person was 340 00:19:18,720 --> 00:19:21,480 Speaker 1: and the fact that I asked he not be sent 341 00:19:21,560 --> 00:19:25,880 Speaker 1: to that prison, okay, and they basically said, don't worry 342 00:19:25,920 --> 00:19:27,080 Speaker 1: as long as you're working here. 343 00:19:27,200 --> 00:19:29,560 Speaker 2: He had not come here and not come here. That 344 00:19:29,640 --> 00:19:31,760 Speaker 2: was very very good of them, really, it was. 345 00:19:31,880 --> 00:19:35,960 Speaker 1: Yeah, I really appreciated that. I didn't know how I 346 00:19:36,280 --> 00:19:39,000 Speaker 1: would react to come face to face with his killer. 347 00:19:39,240 --> 00:19:43,160 Speaker 2: Just to go back to the crime, this central crime, 348 00:19:43,160 --> 00:19:45,800 Speaker 2: a crime that's really affected your life and made you 349 00:19:45,920 --> 00:19:49,920 Speaker 2: decide to write this book indirectly, what happened with it. 350 00:19:50,440 --> 00:19:53,840 Speaker 2: He's invested the money, the guy with the money with 351 00:19:53,920 --> 00:19:57,720 Speaker 2: his project drainage game or whatever, it hasn't worked or 352 00:19:57,760 --> 00:20:01,320 Speaker 2: he hasn't got the money to pay in back. What 353 00:20:01,520 --> 00:20:02,840 Speaker 2: came to a head? What happened? 354 00:20:03,080 --> 00:20:06,439 Speaker 1: So during the trial, it came out that he basically 355 00:20:06,520 --> 00:20:11,239 Speaker 1: went around to speak to Brian and he used to 356 00:20:11,960 --> 00:20:14,760 Speaker 1: a ruse to basically go and use the toilet. He 357 00:20:14,800 --> 00:20:18,560 Speaker 1: then came out claimed that the toilet wasn't flushing right. 358 00:20:18,760 --> 00:20:20,720 Speaker 1: Brian went in to actually have a look at it, 359 00:20:21,359 --> 00:20:24,240 Speaker 1: and this guy grabbed a knife from the kitchen, stabbed 360 00:20:24,280 --> 00:20:27,040 Speaker 1: Brian in the back, so back and neck about thirty 361 00:20:27,040 --> 00:20:27,639 Speaker 1: four times. 362 00:20:27,720 --> 00:20:31,639 Speaker 2: So this was at least to that extent. It was 363 00:20:31,680 --> 00:20:34,280 Speaker 2: a planned attack. I mean, whether he planned it for 364 00:20:34,720 --> 00:20:37,560 Speaker 2: two days or two weeks or two minutes, he planned 365 00:20:37,560 --> 00:20:39,520 Speaker 2: it to get him to get step into the toilet 366 00:20:39,560 --> 00:20:41,400 Speaker 2: and do that with a ruse. He's a plan. 367 00:20:41,920 --> 00:20:44,000 Speaker 1: I can't comment. I don't know. 368 00:20:44,200 --> 00:20:47,400 Speaker 2: Clearly, even if it's only a short term thing he did. Yeah, 369 00:20:47,480 --> 00:20:49,639 Speaker 2: he wasn't you know, we had an argument and then 370 00:20:49,680 --> 00:20:51,920 Speaker 2: we start hitting each other. It wasn't that. 371 00:20:52,160 --> 00:20:54,560 Speaker 1: The only thing I would say is that during the trial, 372 00:20:55,320 --> 00:20:58,960 Speaker 1: his defense team trying to use an alleged story that 373 00:20:59,359 --> 00:21:05,080 Speaker 1: Brian had threatened this person's children, and the judge basically 374 00:21:05,119 --> 00:21:09,040 Speaker 1: saw it for what it was, completely fanciful, that he 375 00:21:09,119 --> 00:21:12,320 Speaker 1: never made any threats and all of that, and a 376 00:21:12,320 --> 00:21:15,760 Speaker 1: as a result, he ended up with twenty eight years 377 00:21:16,640 --> 00:21:19,480 Speaker 1: I think around twenty two twenty three on the bottom 378 00:21:19,520 --> 00:21:23,720 Speaker 1: as far as but yeah, twenty eight years maximum. 379 00:21:24,000 --> 00:21:27,879 Speaker 2: Most of the rest of his life he'll be yeah, yeah, 380 00:21:28,240 --> 00:21:29,960 Speaker 2: he'll come out a very old man, if he comes 381 00:21:30,000 --> 00:21:30,520 Speaker 2: out at all. 382 00:21:30,600 --> 00:21:34,240 Speaker 1: But I think for myself that the night Brian was murdered, 383 00:21:34,400 --> 00:21:38,760 Speaker 1: it was like it wasn't something broke inside me. It 384 00:21:38,840 --> 00:21:41,520 Speaker 1: was like a spark or a light just went out. 385 00:21:42,400 --> 00:21:46,200 Speaker 1: I had a lot of grief and guilt after the funeral, 386 00:21:46,400 --> 00:21:51,639 Speaker 1: after all the trial. And that's basically I didn't have 387 00:21:51,640 --> 00:21:54,560 Speaker 1: my friend that I could speak to anymore. I couldn't 388 00:21:54,640 --> 00:21:58,040 Speaker 1: ring him and tell him about my day or did 389 00:21:58,080 --> 00:22:01,040 Speaker 1: the assault or an incident at work or anything like that. 390 00:22:01,400 --> 00:22:03,960 Speaker 1: So I would wake at two three o'clock in the 391 00:22:04,000 --> 00:22:08,359 Speaker 1: morning and start writing notes on that on my phone 392 00:22:08,520 --> 00:22:11,720 Speaker 1: as a way of still talking to him. Yes, and 393 00:22:11,800 --> 00:22:16,080 Speaker 1: that's what ultimately led to writing the actual book. 394 00:22:16,119 --> 00:22:18,440 Speaker 2: The book is a long letter to your dead mate, 395 00:22:18,480 --> 00:22:20,000 Speaker 2: is Well. 396 00:22:20,040 --> 00:22:23,080 Speaker 1: It's inspired by his story. I like to think of 397 00:22:23,160 --> 00:22:27,000 Speaker 1: it as telling his story. He was someone that mattered 398 00:22:27,760 --> 00:22:31,239 Speaker 1: as all correction offices, what we do and what we 399 00:22:31,280 --> 00:22:31,840 Speaker 1: go through. 400 00:22:32,640 --> 00:22:35,800 Speaker 2: It's very hard your book justifying the means. It's how 401 00:22:35,840 --> 00:22:38,600 Speaker 2: would you characterize who are you talking to in that book? 402 00:22:38,680 --> 00:22:39,240 Speaker 2: Who you read? 403 00:22:39,240 --> 00:22:43,040 Speaker 1: It's pretty much, well, it's a psychological I've put it 404 00:22:43,080 --> 00:22:48,920 Speaker 1: as a psychological crime thriller. I had a writing coach. Obviously, 405 00:22:49,320 --> 00:22:52,720 Speaker 1: debut books, I've never tried this before, so I had 406 00:22:52,880 --> 00:22:56,600 Speaker 1: a writing coach who basically read parts of it and 407 00:22:56,680 --> 00:22:59,679 Speaker 1: came back with her first line on her report was 408 00:23:00,200 --> 00:23:02,919 Speaker 1: thoroughly enjoyed your story, right, good, But you had a 409 00:23:02,920 --> 00:23:06,359 Speaker 1: lot of questions what happens to this person and what 410 00:23:06,520 --> 00:23:09,879 Speaker 1: happens here and that? So that certainly gave me the 411 00:23:09,960 --> 00:23:11,600 Speaker 1: confidence to continue writing. 412 00:23:12,040 --> 00:23:15,040 Speaker 2: Is this a work of complete fiction? Fiction based on 413 00:23:15,200 --> 00:23:19,000 Speaker 2: real events, real events, just but with false names? 414 00:23:19,560 --> 00:23:23,040 Speaker 1: How to characterize it real events with Yeah, I've changed 415 00:23:23,080 --> 00:23:24,560 Speaker 1: a few names and dates and. 416 00:23:24,520 --> 00:23:27,120 Speaker 2: A few Bruce, but you're not Bruce at all. 417 00:23:27,280 --> 00:23:30,520 Speaker 1: No, no, but that's a funny story. As well. As 418 00:23:30,680 --> 00:23:33,840 Speaker 1: I used to DJ forty years ago. 419 00:23:33,960 --> 00:23:37,119 Speaker 2: Did you no clubs? Did you? Yeah, a few of 420 00:23:37,200 --> 00:23:38,439 Speaker 2: your future customers in there. 421 00:23:38,520 --> 00:23:41,680 Speaker 1: Well, I still do. Actually DJ mixes for a few 422 00:23:41,720 --> 00:23:45,119 Speaker 1: close friends and that. Yeah, a lot of seventies and 423 00:23:45,200 --> 00:23:48,320 Speaker 1: eighties and that. But at the time, I think it 424 00:23:48,400 --> 00:23:51,840 Speaker 1: was nineteen eighty four, a movie came out they called 425 00:23:51,840 --> 00:23:54,440 Speaker 1: me Bruce, and I did a lot of martial arts 426 00:23:54,480 --> 00:23:56,280 Speaker 1: around that time. So the guy that I used to 427 00:23:56,400 --> 00:23:59,399 Speaker 1: DJ with said, I'll call you Bruce from now on, 428 00:23:59,640 --> 00:24:01,960 Speaker 1: and he still does to this day, as in Bruce 429 00:24:02,040 --> 00:24:06,000 Speaker 1: Lee as in Yeah, that was the film interesting we 430 00:24:06,040 --> 00:24:08,600 Speaker 1: think about it. It was a comedy, wasn't probably one 431 00:24:08,600 --> 00:24:10,000 Speaker 1: of the best, but it was quite. 432 00:24:09,800 --> 00:24:13,040 Speaker 2: Fun with Bruce, And so that's why you chose that. 433 00:24:13,320 --> 00:24:18,159 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, there's this idea that until you grieve, 434 00:24:18,960 --> 00:24:23,359 Speaker 1: you can't move on. We act and move about, we 435 00:24:23,400 --> 00:24:25,600 Speaker 1: put on the uniform, we put on the fake smile, 436 00:24:25,760 --> 00:24:29,560 Speaker 1: but until you actually grieve, you can't move on. We're 437 00:24:29,560 --> 00:24:32,840 Speaker 1: going through the motions and I never really understood that 438 00:24:33,320 --> 00:24:34,560 Speaker 1: until Brian was murdered. 439 00:24:34,880 --> 00:24:38,080 Speaker 2: And that's the end of our first part of the 440 00:24:38,119 --> 00:24:42,080 Speaker 2: story being told to us by Bruce McLeod, serving prison 441 00:24:42,080 --> 00:24:45,960 Speaker 2: officer who has written a book called Justifying the Means. 442 00:24:46,320 --> 00:24:50,359 Speaker 2: Next week we will hear the rest of Bruce's story. 443 00:24:50,560 --> 00:24:54,800 Speaker 1: Thanks Andrew, Thanks for listening. 444 00:24:55,240 --> 00:24:58,199 Speaker 2: Life in Crimes is a Sunday Herald Sun production for 445 00:24:58,400 --> 00:25:03,640 Speaker 2: True Crime Australia. Our producer is Johnty Burton. For my columns, 446 00:25:03,640 --> 00:25:08,200 Speaker 2: features and more, go to Heroldsun dot com dot au 447 00:25:08,720 --> 00:25:13,880 Speaker 2: forward slash Andrew rule one word. For advertising inquiries, go 448 00:25:13,960 --> 00:25:18,840 Speaker 2: to news Podcasts sold at news dot com dot au. 449 00:25:19,600 --> 00:25:24,480 Speaker 2: That is all one word news podcasts sold And if 450 00:25:24,520 --> 00:25:28,960 Speaker 2: you want further information about this episode, links are in 451 00:25:29,240 --> 00:25:29,880 Speaker 2: the description.