WEBVTT - Inside the Cronulla Riots: Carl Scully and Mark Goodwin 0:00:01.880 --> 0:00:04.880 The public has had a long held fascination with detectives. 0:00:05.360 --> 0:00:08.039 Detective sy aside of life the average person is never 0:00:08.119 --> 0:00:11.080 exposed to. I spent thirty four years as a cop. 0:00:11.560 --> 0:00:14.040 For twenty five of those years I was catching killers. 0:00:14.440 --> 0:00:16.200 That's what I did for a living. I was a 0:00:16.200 --> 0:00:20.560 homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead, 0:00:20.600 --> 0:00:23.120 I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated. 0:00:23.840 --> 0:00:26.400 The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories 0:00:26.440 --> 0:00:28.760 from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw 0:00:28.800 --> 0:00:31.440 and honest, just like the people I talk to. Some 0:00:31.600 --> 0:00:34.640 of the content and language might be confronting. That's because 0:00:34.640 --> 0:00:37.640 no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged. 0:00:38.159 --> 0:00:40.400 Join me now as I take you into this world. 0:00:47.000 --> 0:00:50.400 Welcome to another episode that I Catch Killers. Today, we're 0:00:50.400 --> 0:00:54.120 going to explore a pivotal moment in Australian history, a 0:00:54.200 --> 0:00:57.440 series of events that tested the capabilities of New South 0:00:57.440 --> 0:01:01.760 Wales police to restore law and order backdrop of community 0:01:01.800 --> 0:01:07.000 grievances and racial tensions. On Sunday, the eleventh of December 0:01:07.040 --> 0:01:10.319 two thousand and five, a seemingly ordinary day in the 0:01:10.360 --> 0:01:14.800 Sydney Beachside suburb of Cronulla spiraled into violence and chaos. 0:01:15.640 --> 0:01:18.960 What began as a local confrontation escalated into a riot 0:01:19.120 --> 0:01:22.399 and a series of violent attacks and damaged the property. 0:01:23.360 --> 0:01:26.360 The events shocked Australia and made news across the world 0:01:26.720 --> 0:01:30.360 and exposed deep seated issues of identity, race and belonging. 0:01:30.880 --> 0:01:32.920 We're going to be talking today with two of the 0:01:32.959 --> 0:01:36.640 men responsible for restoring law and order during the chaos. 0:01:37.280 --> 0:01:40.440 We have with us in the studio, former Assistant Commissioner 0:01:40.440 --> 0:01:44.399 Mark Goodwin and former New South Wales Police Minister Carl Scully. 0:01:45.160 --> 0:01:47.160 They're going to give us a behind the scenes look 0:01:47.440 --> 0:01:50.120 at what caused the riot and the follow up revenge, 0:01:50.360 --> 0:01:53.040 how the police managed to quell the violence, and what 0:01:53.080 --> 0:01:57.040 were the after effects. Firstly, let me welcome former New 0:01:57.080 --> 0:01:59.600 South Wales Police Assistant Commissioner Mark Goodwin. 0:02:00.680 --> 0:02:02.400 Gary, thanks for having us on mat All. 0:02:02.240 --> 0:02:04.280 Thanks for coming on. And we've also got in the 0:02:04.320 --> 0:02:08.480 studio with us former New South Wales Police Minister Carl Scully. 0:02:08.639 --> 0:02:12.040 Thanks for the invite, well, thanks for coming on. Crenulla 0:02:12.160 --> 0:02:16.160 riots it's something that touched in the psyche of our society, 0:02:16.240 --> 0:02:19.080 isn't it really? It was such a pivotal moment the 0:02:19.160 --> 0:02:21.160 you two were right at the heart and center of it, 0:02:21.280 --> 0:02:25.600 overseeing what was happening at the time. What's what's your 0:02:25.639 --> 0:02:27.560 memories of the day. 0:02:28.960 --> 0:02:34.600 Yeah, Look, it was a Balmi Sunday, typical hot summer's 0:02:34.639 --> 0:02:35.440 day in Sydney. 0:02:35.480 --> 0:02:38.000 And in the morning it started. 0:02:37.680 --> 0:02:40.080 Out with more of a lock of Australia day really 0:02:40.120 --> 0:02:44.080 of a celebration on the beach. And look, they were 0:02:44.080 --> 0:02:46.200 all there to make a point, make a statement. Really 0:02:46.200 --> 0:02:49.520 it was it was, it was. There had been hundreds 0:02:49.520 --> 0:02:53.359 and thousands of text messages to reclaim the beach from 0:02:53.680 --> 0:02:55.519 the issues that had been going on down there, which 0:02:55.520 --> 0:02:59.520 will discuss a bit later, but then you know, and 0:02:59.639 --> 0:03:04.280 there was flag waving and barbecues and about five thousand 0:03:04.320 --> 0:03:07.160 people turned up on the beach down there that day, 0:03:07.760 --> 0:03:12.720 and they were a mixture of some locals, a lot 0:03:12.720 --> 0:03:15.560 of people that weren't from the area that had turned 0:03:15.600 --> 0:03:18.720 up because of the intense media which will ned out canvas, 0:03:19.360 --> 0:03:21.880 and also the thousands of tech hundreds of thousands of 0:03:21.880 --> 0:03:26.160 text messages. But look, as the day wore on, there 0:03:26.240 --> 0:03:30.680 was white supremacists turned up in the crowd in big 0:03:31.840 --> 0:03:35.200 utilities with jacked up suspension and eurek are stocking flags 0:03:35.240 --> 0:03:37.880 in the back, and they wanted to make a point. 0:03:37.920 --> 0:03:41.120 They were hardcore and they were not local. In fact, 0:03:41.120 --> 0:03:44.320 you'll see on the front of our book that we 0:03:44.480 --> 0:03:47.440 chose this particular photo on the front of the book. 0:03:47.600 --> 0:03:50.760 It is literally what ninety nine percent of the day 0:03:50.800 --> 0:03:53.240 looked like. There was lots and lots of police. We 0:03:53.280 --> 0:03:57.360 had prepared for a very likelihood of a very large 0:03:57.360 --> 0:04:00.560 public order incident, as all the rights squad were there 0:04:01.360 --> 0:04:04.160 and helicopters and boats in the water, and you know 0:04:04.200 --> 0:04:06.240 the police off here are dog squads and prison vans 0:04:06.240 --> 0:04:08.120 and so forth, so we were ready to go. But 0:04:08.480 --> 0:04:11.600 ninety of the day literally was the police watching the rubberneckers, 0:04:11.960 --> 0:04:14.360 and they rubberneckers watching this brookers in the crowd. And 0:04:14.400 --> 0:04:17.080 you'll see on that front cover, actually there's a guy 0:04:17.160 --> 0:04:22.080 there with his arms in the air. He's wearing The 0:04:22.160 --> 0:04:24.520 digital photo of this clear show shows it clearly, but 0:04:24.600 --> 0:04:28.680 he's wearing stars and stripes, red, white and blue bandana 0:04:28.720 --> 0:04:31.440 on his head and he's playing around. You can see 0:04:31.440 --> 0:04:34.840 the cameras around him with a fur big furry microphones 0:04:34.880 --> 0:04:35.320 and whatnot. 0:04:35.360 --> 0:04:36.560 So he's a white. 0:04:36.400 --> 0:04:39.320 Supremacist spooker that had turned up in the crowd and 0:04:39.400 --> 0:04:42.200 they started the trouble down there. They started chance and 0:04:44.680 --> 0:04:46.480 then the old kicked in and it went from there. 0:04:46.520 --> 0:04:50.200 We'll delve into it in detail just to get the 0:04:50.240 --> 0:04:54.039 sense of it. And I call it, I'm precedented in 0:04:54.400 --> 0:04:58.320 our modern modern times, the right of that nature, gathering 0:04:58.360 --> 0:05:01.440 that nature. Carl, were the police minister at the time 0:05:01.560 --> 0:05:05.040 when things were starting to escalate, and what was your 0:05:05.400 --> 0:05:09.200 take on what happened? And I should correct myself because 0:05:09.200 --> 0:05:11.200 it's not just the day. There was a lead up 0:05:11.240 --> 0:05:13.400 to it and there was the aftermath of it with 0:05:13.440 --> 0:05:16.320 the revenge attacks. But from a police minister's point of view, 0:05:16.320 --> 0:05:18.000 you're watching things unfault a. 0:05:18.080 --> 0:05:20.760 Couple of things. I was Police Minister for about a 0:05:20.839 --> 0:05:23.320 month when the mcquarie Fields riots happened. 0:05:23.400 --> 0:05:25.120 Okay, so experience. 0:05:25.920 --> 0:05:28.800 I had some concerns and about how we handled it. 0:05:28.920 --> 0:05:33.160 There was a really good internal inquiry process run by 0:05:33.200 --> 0:05:38.080 Deputy Commission Dave Madden, one of Australia's leading law and 0:05:38.200 --> 0:05:41.840 order experts on right response. Ron Mason was an important 0:05:41.839 --> 0:05:43.720 part of that and as a result we set up 0:05:43.720 --> 0:05:47.640 the Public Order and Riot Squad, which wasn't quite fully 0:05:47.720 --> 0:05:49.600 formed by the time the Cronulla rights. 0:05:49.440 --> 0:05:52.240 That was on the back of the Macquarie rights. Yes so. 0:05:52.800 --> 0:05:56.039 And just a few months later we had the Lifeguard 0:05:56.200 --> 0:06:01.360 biffo down at North Cronulla Beach, some lot of moral 0:06:01.440 --> 0:06:06.600 panic being projected by talkback radio and tabloid newspapers. And 0:06:07.000 --> 0:06:09.159 I was somewhat sad and gary when I went down 0:06:09.200 --> 0:06:11.440 to Cronulla in the lead up to that eleventh of 0:06:11.480 --> 0:06:14.839 December two thousand and five, seeing all these Australian flags 0:06:14.960 --> 0:06:18.400 draped over people's front yards and it made me feel 0:06:18.560 --> 0:06:20.840 not a huge number, but more than I'd really seen 0:06:20.920 --> 0:06:25.360 before in my public life. And then learning about all 0:06:25.400 --> 0:06:28.960 these text messages and clarion calls, I thought, Gee, there's 0:06:28.960 --> 0:06:33.279 some trouble going on here, and I sought the reassurance 0:06:33.360 --> 0:06:36.880 that we were prepared for it. And yes, I went 0:06:36.960 --> 0:06:40.599 down to the beach area with the premiere Assistant Commissioner 0:06:40.640 --> 0:06:44.520 Goodwin briefness and more importantly briefness on an escalation plan 0:06:44.800 --> 0:06:47.280 in case it got out of control. So I certainly 0:06:47.360 --> 0:06:51.720 felt trouble was brewing. It didn't look good, but I 0:06:51.839 --> 0:06:53.880 certainly felt police were ready for it. 0:06:53.920 --> 0:06:57.839 Okay, the pressure on both of you guys on that day, 0:06:57.960 --> 0:07:01.520 with the build up mark you, the senior officer, was 0:07:01.680 --> 0:07:05.960 responsible for managing all the what was going to occur 0:07:06.040 --> 0:07:09.159 on that day from a police response. I want to 0:07:09.160 --> 0:07:11.600 break it down and go into details the lead up 0:07:11.600 --> 0:07:13.720 to it and everything that happened, But just purely on 0:07:13.760 --> 0:07:16.800 a personal point of view. Yeah, you joined the cops, 0:07:16.840 --> 0:07:19.760 you expect expect pressure, but that was pressure on a 0:07:19.840 --> 0:07:22.920 large scale. How did it affect you personally just during 0:07:22.960 --> 0:07:26.160 the days that you were managing the situation here? 0:07:26.200 --> 0:07:29.200 Look, really the pressure was off the Richter scale, to 0:07:29.200 --> 0:07:31.440 be quite honest with her, and not so much on 0:07:31.480 --> 0:07:33.560 the day, but in the revenge attacks which will canvas later. 0:07:33.600 --> 0:07:37.200 But look, you know, nothing can prepare for something the 0:07:37.240 --> 0:07:39.840 size of what that turned out. But I certainly had 0:07:41.040 --> 0:07:44.160 a very extensive background as a criminal investigator and had 0:07:44.200 --> 0:07:49.080 run major homicide briefs like yourself, armedhold up squad, drug squad, 0:07:49.160 --> 0:07:52.480 undercover unit, and I'd been involved in hostage negotiators for 0:07:52.520 --> 0:07:54.760 over a decade and stuff. So I'd seen and been 0:07:54.800 --> 0:07:58.400 at the point end of operational activity. And luckily I'd 0:07:58.440 --> 0:08:01.960 spent five years also as our manager at Bankstown before 0:08:02.000 --> 0:08:04.680 I rose up to the lofty heights, and that very 0:08:04.680 --> 0:08:08.640 well prepared me for how the Middle Eastern community reacts 0:08:08.640 --> 0:08:09.960 and how they're policed and so forth. 0:08:10.000 --> 0:08:10.640 But the pressure. 0:08:11.160 --> 0:08:14.120 I don't think anything could prepare any person for the 0:08:14.160 --> 0:08:16.480 immense pressure that we were under. Because literally, and we'll 0:08:16.480 --> 0:08:19.040 talk about this later, but the you know, the following 0:08:19.080 --> 0:08:22.520 weekend even it was the largest public order police operation 0:08:22.600 --> 0:08:24.640 it's ever been run in Australia still to this date. 0:08:24.720 --> 0:08:27.000 So you know, we had to literally put the entire 0:08:27.040 --> 0:08:30.960 police service into a mode which was thankfully the new 0:08:31.040 --> 0:08:33.800 South Pols Police had run the Olympics four years before, 0:08:33.800 --> 0:08:36.640 in the year two thousand or five years before, sorry, 0:08:36.880 --> 0:08:40.880 And then you know that required the freeing up of 0:08:40.920 --> 0:08:45.079 an immense amount of resources from country regional areas and 0:08:45.120 --> 0:08:47.200 the logistics of having none of those people brought into 0:08:47.200 --> 0:08:48.720 Sydney and housing them and stuff. 0:08:48.760 --> 0:08:50.120 So I had to deal with all that. 0:08:50.160 --> 0:08:53.120 I had to deal with the legislative reform that we 0:08:53.240 --> 0:08:56.240 urgently needed, the actual operational activity, and it was just 0:08:56.280 --> 0:08:57.240 an immense operation. 0:08:57.559 --> 0:08:58.560 So there's a lot a lot. 0:08:58.440 --> 0:09:00.320 Of yeah, a lot of the move a lot of 0:09:00.360 --> 0:09:02.760 moving parts, and a lot of pressure and a lot 0:09:02.800 --> 0:09:06.640 of things that could go wrong. I must admit reading 0:09:06.720 --> 0:09:09.959 the book, even though I recall it, I recall it 0:09:10.200 --> 0:09:13.000 very clearly. I was a crime manager and all our 0:09:13.040 --> 0:09:15.840 troops have been taken away and we're trying to manage 0:09:15.880 --> 0:09:18.040 the LAC that I was in at the time, but 0:09:18.120 --> 0:09:20.360 it was virtually everyone had the roll. This leaves up 0:09:20.559 --> 0:09:24.440 and get involved, Carl. From a police minister's point of view, 0:09:24.800 --> 0:09:27.840 I would imagine I don't fully understand the world of politics, 0:09:27.880 --> 0:09:29.560 but I I would imagine there'd be a lot of 0:09:29.559 --> 0:09:32.640 phone calls going backwards and forwards, and pressure would have 0:09:32.679 --> 0:09:34.160 been on you in that role as well. 0:09:34.240 --> 0:09:37.559 It's a funny role police minister. Yes it's political. You're 0:09:37.559 --> 0:09:40.240 part of the cabinet room, but in a sense you 0:09:40.400 --> 0:09:44.520 sort of stand outside that process law enforcement, and for 0:09:44.640 --> 0:09:48.760 most of my time I was there. Commissioner and minister 0:09:49.160 --> 0:09:52.960 have to work hand in glove, and in some ways 0:09:53.120 --> 0:09:56.679 we overlap each other's roles to make it work. In 0:09:56.720 --> 0:10:00.400 some senses, I was co commissioner. Of course, the missioner 0:10:00.520 --> 0:10:04.439 can't work without full political support. A minister can't work 0:10:04.520 --> 0:10:08.880 without full commissioner support. My concern was to make sure 0:10:09.240 --> 0:10:13.400 the powers, the personnel and the resources were made available. 0:10:13.400 --> 0:10:16.040 That's what I could do and did do, and you 0:10:16.120 --> 0:10:20.040 might see in the book I didn't dwell too much 0:10:20.120 --> 0:10:23.880 on this, but the Macquarie Fields experience left me feeling 0:10:24.200 --> 0:10:29.400 the senior command weren't quite responsive enough that they could 0:10:29.440 --> 0:10:31.320 have been, so I was wary of it when this 0:10:31.360 --> 0:10:34.840 happened again, and I did say to Commissioner Maroni, the 0:10:34.880 --> 0:10:37.720 police force were not up to it. I'd be asking 0:10:37.800 --> 0:10:41.960 the Premier to seek soldiers, bring the military in. And 0:10:42.040 --> 0:10:46.160 he very quickly jumped to attention and made the entire 0:10:46.200 --> 0:10:50.240 police force available to Assistant Commissioner Goodwin. And that was 0:10:50.320 --> 0:10:53.520 a turning point at that point, and sadly I had 0:10:53.520 --> 0:10:55.880 to threaten it was a serious threat, but he showed 0:10:55.920 --> 0:10:58.200 me the police were up to it, they can work. 0:10:58.360 --> 0:11:01.120 Well. That makes sense because that is a huge call 0:11:01.200 --> 0:11:05.000 to involve the military in a law and order issue, 0:11:05.000 --> 0:11:09.560 and again almost unprecedented. So I could imagine when that's 0:11:10.080 --> 0:11:13.400 you made those murmurings that this might be the way 0:11:13.440 --> 0:11:15.240 we had to go. I could imagine the pressure that 0:11:15.480 --> 0:11:16.360 come a big call. 0:11:16.640 --> 0:11:17.640 Was I prepared to do it? 0:11:17.760 --> 0:11:20.400 Yes, I believe Prime Minister Howard would have made a 0:11:20.480 --> 0:11:25.160 quick amendment to the military legislation to allow soldiers to 0:11:25.200 --> 0:11:29.360 be used to quell dissent in a democracy. It's not 0:11:29.480 --> 0:11:31.680 a nice call, but I got to the point where 0:11:31.720 --> 0:11:34.080 I thought I may need to make it because I 0:11:34.160 --> 0:11:39.280 could see a macquarie Field's response slow, tardy, taking days 0:11:39.320 --> 0:11:42.080 to get to the point. We needed a quick response. 0:11:42.120 --> 0:11:44.319 And when he got that message, and I thank him 0:11:44.320 --> 0:11:48.840 for it, he responded and Assistant Commissioner Goodman literally had 0:11:48.840 --> 0:11:51.720 the entire New South Wales Police Force then at his 0:11:51.840 --> 0:11:54.719 disposal and the job they did was magnificent. 0:11:54.920 --> 0:11:57.480 Well, when we talk about and I got it pro 0:11:57.559 --> 0:12:00.440 your book, but I understand, I understood the new answers 0:12:00.440 --> 0:12:02.720 of what was going on, and it's something that could 0:12:02.760 --> 0:12:07.040 have very seriously escalated and not just basing Cronulla. And 0:12:07.080 --> 0:12:09.920 I know the revenge attacks were spread further, but it 0:12:10.000 --> 0:12:13.280 could have spread right across all of Sydney and white 0:12:13.280 --> 0:12:13.760 of Sydney. 0:12:13.800 --> 0:12:16.760 So I guess I approach When people ask me why 0:12:16.760 --> 0:12:18.520 did we write the book, there's a few reasons, and 0:12:18.600 --> 0:12:22.360 both of us have got different reasons, but essentially I 0:12:22.480 --> 0:12:25.600 want people to think of the questions what happened, what 0:12:25.760 --> 0:12:27.920 could have happened, and why did it happen? 0:12:28.320 --> 0:12:29.040 Now? What happened? 0:12:29.080 --> 0:12:31.280 A lot of people have got their own memories of 0:12:31.280 --> 0:12:34.520 what happened? What could have happened? Well, firstly what happened? 0:12:34.559 --> 0:12:36.640 A lot of people have forgotten the detail and it 0:12:36.720 --> 0:12:40.880 was pretty nasty, the revenge attacks because the videographic and 0:12:40.920 --> 0:12:44.080 photographic evidence is solely one sided. As Mark and I 0:12:44.120 --> 0:12:46.560 often say, if you google Cronulla Rides, you don't get 0:12:46.600 --> 0:12:49.280 any of the revenge attacks. So we think it's important 0:12:49.320 --> 0:12:52.520 what did happen needs to be recorded because the revenge 0:12:52.520 --> 0:12:55.559 attacks were off the charts compared to what happened at 0:12:55.600 --> 0:12:56.559 North Cronulla Beach. 0:12:56.640 --> 0:12:57.640 What could have happened? 0:12:58.160 --> 0:13:01.480 The intelligence coming to Mark and through Mark to me 0:13:01.920 --> 0:13:05.520 was frightening. Then of course why did it happen? Is 0:13:05.559 --> 0:13:07.880 a sociological analysis that we go through. 0:13:08.000 --> 0:13:10.640 Yeah, and we'll try and try and break that down 0:13:10.679 --> 0:13:11.840 as complex that that it is. 0:13:12.000 --> 0:13:15.319 For three important questions as to how we approach the. 0:13:15.240 --> 0:13:19.200 Book, and Mark in writing the book, was important to 0:13:19.240 --> 0:13:21.680 you to have the full story out there as well. 0:13:21.920 --> 0:13:25.120 Yeah, look Arry, over the years there's been a lot 0:13:25.120 --> 0:13:27.520 of stuff written about it. And look even now, every 0:13:27.520 --> 0:13:30.880 time the word racism is mentioned in Australia, the Cronella 0:13:30.960 --> 0:13:32.439 rights come to the fore and they wheel out the 0:13:32.440 --> 0:13:35.360 old footage of only the Caucasian issues on the beach 0:13:35.440 --> 0:13:38.160 during the day, and we thought it was important that 0:13:38.200 --> 0:13:42.199 the because there is such a skewed reporting and all 0:13:42.200 --> 0:13:46.480 the academic work that's been done since because what happened 0:13:46.559 --> 0:13:49.920 during the day, every media area in Sydney turned up. 0:13:50.000 --> 0:13:52.200 There'd been such a beat up and build up to it. 0:13:52.640 --> 0:13:56.120 Every journalist in Australia I think, was there on the day. So, 0:13:56.960 --> 0:13:59.520 I mean, as I've already mentioned, which is the front 0:13:59.520 --> 0:14:01.760 of our book, most of the day was the cops 0:14:01.760 --> 0:14:04.600 watching the rubberneckers, rubbineck watching the spreakers in the crowd, 0:14:04.640 --> 0:14:06.640 and then there it's got out of hand. So I 0:14:06.720 --> 0:14:11.000 counted only recently nine incidents that occurred that were of 0:14:11.200 --> 0:14:13.320 any significance or violence. 0:14:14.120 --> 0:14:15.040 Now, when you spread that. 0:14:15.080 --> 0:14:18.720 Out out over the entire day of over eight hours, 0:14:19.680 --> 0:14:24.320 it's a very very fake news to string that together 0:14:24.400 --> 0:14:26.720 in such short succession, like was done for the media 0:14:26.760 --> 0:14:32.240 that night with excited newsreader voiceovers to make it look 0:14:32.320 --> 0:14:36.480 like that five thousand strong crowd they're all participated in 0:14:36.520 --> 0:14:40.440 a Caucasian racist bender all day long, and it's just 0:14:40.600 --> 0:14:41.800 it's actually like fake news. 0:14:41.880 --> 0:14:42.160 Gary. 0:14:42.440 --> 0:14:44.400 So you know, in writing this book, we sort of 0:14:44.400 --> 0:14:46.520 wanted to correct the record on that, and it's just 0:14:46.600 --> 0:14:49.200 a factual account. Some people aren't going to like that, 0:14:49.320 --> 0:14:51.200 but it is a factual account from eight as out 0:14:51.200 --> 0:14:52.280 of exactly what did occur. 0:14:53.080 --> 0:14:55.360 Would it be fair to say, and you're quite right, 0:14:55.440 --> 0:14:59.200 both of you insaying you talk racism and quite often 0:14:59.680 --> 0:15:02.840 referred to Cronulla, the race rights and all that. I've 0:15:02.840 --> 0:15:05.680 been guilty of it. I have conversations with people and yeah, 0:15:05.920 --> 0:15:12.160 the Cronulla race rights. But the tension and the type 0:15:12.160 --> 0:15:15.320 of thing that occurred at Cronulla could very well have 0:15:15.400 --> 0:15:19.320 occurred in another location if the circumstances were different, like 0:15:19.400 --> 0:15:22.920 the fact that occurred at Crenulla. There was incidents that 0:15:22.960 --> 0:15:24.760 built up and then the text messages and I want 0:15:24.800 --> 0:15:27.040 to go through some of the text messages that you 0:15:27.160 --> 0:15:29.640 got in your book, and they're very inflammatory, but it 0:15:29.680 --> 0:15:33.040 was virtually a build up to what occurred on that day. 0:15:33.040 --> 0:15:34.480 Would that be fair to say? 0:15:34.680 --> 0:15:35.560 Over years? 0:15:35.760 --> 0:15:40.080 But Mark's probably better placed as a copper, But certainly 0:15:40.480 --> 0:15:43.600 all the accounts that come to us were it was 0:15:43.640 --> 0:15:47.120 building up over years and years of simmering tension with 0:15:47.280 --> 0:15:51.160 these young Lebanese Muslim use coming to the beach by 0:15:51.240 --> 0:15:53.600 train or by car, bear in mind it's the only 0:15:53.640 --> 0:15:56.920 beach in Sydney that you can come to by train. 0:15:57.600 --> 0:16:02.600 Misogynistic language, uncivil behavior, kicking sand in the faces of 0:16:02.720 --> 0:16:04.720 kids on the beach, what we call the towel versus 0:16:04.800 --> 0:16:08.080 the soccer ball. But a lot of it was inappropriate, 0:16:08.160 --> 0:16:12.280 offensive behavior, slightly below what you would call the police 0:16:12.800 --> 0:16:15.600 to come to the attention and some of the lifeguards, 0:16:15.640 --> 0:16:17.920 so they dealt with it, asked people to behave and 0:16:17.960 --> 0:16:22.160 they did. Sometimes police were called. But this simmered along 0:16:22.240 --> 0:16:25.520 and along along until those incidents towards the end of 0:16:25.560 --> 0:16:27.720 two thousand and five and people said, look, we've had 0:16:27.840 --> 0:16:29.840 enough of this, We're going to respond. 0:16:30.200 --> 0:16:34.240 Okay, I've watched not just read the book, but watched 0:16:34.280 --> 0:16:37.000 a lot of a lot of what the reporting was 0:16:37.040 --> 0:16:39.760 and the follow up report and all that. Then I've 0:16:39.800 --> 0:16:42.960 got to say my observation of it is there's good 0:16:42.960 --> 0:16:46.920 and bad in both communities. To say one community does this, 0:16:47.120 --> 0:16:50.160 like I saw people from Lebanese or Middle East and 0:16:50.200 --> 0:16:54.120 background that were mortified what was going on. And I 0:16:54.120 --> 0:16:57.960 saw the white Caucasians Anglo Saxons, if we want to 0:16:58.000 --> 0:17:02.280 call that. More THEI fied an escalation of a core 0:17:02.320 --> 0:17:04.600 group of people that created this situation. 0:17:05.200 --> 0:17:06.240 Let's look at the numbers. 0:17:06.320 --> 0:17:11.040 Two to three hundred Caucasian inebriated youth behaved in really 0:17:11.200 --> 0:17:17.320 offensive manner. Two to three hundred Lebanese or Arabic Muslims 0:17:17.359 --> 0:17:22.480 behaved in grossly violent manner. So that's less, well less 0:17:22.480 --> 0:17:26.600 than a thousand people. Does that invite academic social commentators 0:17:26.680 --> 0:17:32.359 media to scrub the slogan across Lakember and Cronulla of 0:17:32.480 --> 0:17:33.440 racist communities? 0:17:33.520 --> 0:17:34.040 Of course not. 0:17:34.119 --> 0:17:38.080 It is ridiculous, But that has what's happened. Because if 0:17:38.119 --> 0:17:42.040 you say you're studying racism in Australia, Marks right, you 0:17:42.160 --> 0:17:46.760 google Cronulla and it's the bastion of racism in Australia. 0:17:46.800 --> 0:17:47.199 It's not. 0:17:48.200 --> 0:17:50.280 You think two to three hundred people out of a 0:17:50.320 --> 0:17:53.359 crowd of five thousand in a community across Sutherland of 0:17:53.359 --> 0:17:56.880 two to three hundred thousand, it becomes absurd, just as 0:17:56.960 --> 0:18:03.560 to say Muslim Southwestern Sydney is violently anti Caucasian. For 0:18:03.600 --> 0:18:06.720 a start, there's more Catholics and Anglicans in southwestern Syney 0:18:06.760 --> 0:18:07.440 than there are Mos. 0:18:07.640 --> 0:18:10.000 And I see in your book, and it's very detailed, 0:18:10.280 --> 0:18:13.320 you break down the not just the religion, but the 0:18:13.400 --> 0:18:16.399 races in different areas, and the ethnic background and the 0:18:16.440 --> 0:18:18.760 crime and all that. So it's dissected. 0:18:18.840 --> 0:18:21.359 The challenge, sorry, Garry, is why did it go away? 0:18:22.200 --> 0:18:25.960 And it went away because we are not deeply racist. 0:18:26.080 --> 0:18:29.840 We don't hate each other in this carlais wonderful society. 0:18:29.920 --> 0:18:33.200 I think that's why it got so much attention, because 0:18:33.240 --> 0:18:36.080 I really think it shocked us all like it shocked 0:18:36.119 --> 0:18:38.159 us all that, oh that this is not the country 0:18:38.200 --> 0:18:41.280 we believe where we live in. And it blew up, 0:18:41.359 --> 0:18:44.800 blew up that way. Let's break down how it blew up. 0:18:44.800 --> 0:18:48.240 And a lot of it's been attributed to the I'd 0:18:48.280 --> 0:18:50.920 call it the catalyst that appeared to be with all 0:18:50.920 --> 0:18:53.639 that simmering tension that was built up over the years. 0:18:54.119 --> 0:18:57.480 There was two life savers that were assaulted. Was that 0:18:58.200 --> 0:19:00.920 the week before? Is that what prompted the text messages 0:19:00.960 --> 0:19:02.560 and the doing them throwing? 0:19:02.800 --> 0:19:06.080 Yeah, look it was in the lead up to Christmas. 0:19:06.520 --> 0:19:11.280 The media get a bit bored and I've got a theory. 0:19:11.560 --> 0:19:13.280 Come on, Carl, I work in the media, now, don't 0:19:13.680 --> 0:19:14.360 I've got have been there. 0:19:14.400 --> 0:19:17.280 Well, well, we know parliament's in recess and you're looking 0:19:17.320 --> 0:19:19.960 for a story and nearly every year, I'll challenge you 0:19:20.040 --> 0:19:21.920 to go and find it. But nearly every year is 0:19:21.960 --> 0:19:25.600 the Grinch that stole Christmas? So I mean looking for 0:19:25.640 --> 0:19:27.520 a sort. We remember the claver More wouldn't put up 0:19:27.520 --> 0:19:29.560 the Christmas decorations, so she was the Grinch. 0:19:29.640 --> 0:19:30.240 That shocking. 0:19:32.040 --> 0:19:33.240 Come on, we can't let polity. 0:19:34.760 --> 0:19:37.520 All the moll centers hadn't had working with children checks, 0:19:37.520 --> 0:19:39.359 so your children are not safe. The Grench has stolen 0:19:39.400 --> 0:19:42.240 for Christmas. Again, the massive media every year trying to 0:19:42.320 --> 0:19:44.480 they're board, they're trying to steal Christmas the great Who's 0:19:44.480 --> 0:19:47.680 the Grinch? So on this occasion of the crowd of yes, look, 0:19:47.720 --> 0:19:49.440 there was an a vicious assault on a lifeguard. 0:19:49.480 --> 0:19:51.240 But let's face it, it was a local assault. 0:19:51.400 --> 0:19:53.680 It should have been a local police matter, maybe got 0:19:53.680 --> 0:19:57.080 some local press and whatnot. But this was picked up 0:19:57.080 --> 0:20:00.119 by the media and then escalated beyond all proportion, that 0:20:00.119 --> 0:20:02.680 it was an assault on the sons of ANZACs and 0:20:02.720 --> 0:20:08.400 that the Lebanese Muslims who were responsible almost for the 0:20:08.520 --> 0:20:11.600 nine eleven attacks, had come to Australia and assaulted our 0:20:11.800 --> 0:20:14.120 lifeguards who work on the beach and volunteer their time 0:20:14.160 --> 0:20:17.240 all someone to save your life. That was just completely 0:20:17.280 --> 0:20:20.840 blown out of proportion by the media. And then you know, 0:20:20.920 --> 0:20:24.520 white supremocis supremacists stepped in, thought you beauty, rubbed their 0:20:24.520 --> 0:20:28.120 hands together and started coming to Cronulla handing out pamphlets 0:20:28.600 --> 0:20:30.959 trying to recruit people to these patriot groups. 0:20:32.400 --> 0:20:36.240 Then shock jocks got involved, talked it. 0:20:36.240 --> 0:20:39.000 Up, and listeners dialing in and more and more, and 0:20:39.040 --> 0:20:40.560 it just fed off each other, and there was more 0:20:40.560 --> 0:20:43.840 and more media to a point where there was literally, 0:20:43.920 --> 0:20:46.360 as I said, there's hundreds of thousands of text messages. 0:20:46.359 --> 0:20:49.399 And interestingly, in two thousand and five, social media didn't exist. 0:20:49.400 --> 0:20:51.680 Facebook was only less than a year old, and I 0:20:51.680 --> 0:20:54.320 think worldwide only had you know, less than a million 0:20:54.400 --> 0:20:57.080 yearss I think five six hundred, wasn't it thousand or something. Well, 0:20:57.840 --> 0:21:00.840 social media was just not a thing at that time. 0:21:02.520 --> 0:21:06.280