Speaker 1: The public has had a long held fascination with detectives.
Speaker 1: Detective sy aside of life the average person is never
Speaker 1: exposed to. I spent thirty four years as a cop.
Speaker 1: For twenty five of those years I was catching killers.
Speaker 1: That's what I did for a living. I was a
Speaker 1: homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead,
Speaker 1: I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated.
Speaker 1: The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories
Speaker 1: from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw
Speaker 1: and honest, just like the people I talk to. Some
Speaker 1: of the content and language might be confronting. That's because
Speaker 1: no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged.
Speaker 1: Join me now as I take you into this world.
Speaker 1: Welcome to another episode that I Catch Killers. Today, we're
Speaker 1: going to explore a pivotal moment in Australian history, a
Speaker 1: series of events that tested the capabilities of New South
Speaker 1: Wales police to restore law and order backdrop of community
Speaker 1: grievances and racial tensions. On Sunday, the eleventh of December
Speaker 1: two thousand and five, a seemingly ordinary day in the
Speaker 1: Sydney Beachside suburb of Cronulla spiraled into violence and chaos.
Speaker 1: What began as a local confrontation escalated into a riot
Speaker 1: and a series of violent attacks and damaged the property.
Speaker 1: The events shocked Australia and made news across the world
Speaker 1: and exposed deep seated issues of identity, race and belonging.
Speaker 1: We're going to be talking today with two of the
Speaker 1: men responsible for restoring law and order during the chaos.
Speaker 1: We have with us in the studio, former Assistant Commissioner
Speaker 1: Mark Goodwin and former New South Wales Police Minister Carl Scully.
Speaker 1: They're going to give us a behind the scenes look
Speaker 1: at what caused the riot and the follow up revenge,
Speaker 1: how the police managed to quell the violence, and what
Speaker 1: were the after effects. Firstly, let me welcome former New
Speaker 1: South Wales Police Assistant Commissioner Mark Goodwin.
Speaker 2: Gary, thanks for having us on mat All.
Speaker 1: Thanks for coming on. And we've also got in the
Speaker 1: studio with us former New South Wales Police Minister Carl Scully.
Speaker 1: Thanks for the invite, well, thanks for coming on. Crenulla
Speaker 1: riots it's something that touched in the psyche of our society,
Speaker 1: isn't it really? It was such a pivotal moment the
Speaker 1: you two were right at the heart and center of it,
Speaker 1: overseeing what was happening at the time. What's what's your
Speaker 1: memories of the day.
Speaker 3: Yeah, Look, it was a Balmi Sunday, typical hot summer's
Speaker 3: day in Sydney.
Speaker 2: And in the morning it started.
Speaker 3: Out with more of a lock of Australia day really
Speaker 3: of a celebration on the beach. And look, they were
Speaker 3: all there to make a point, make a statement. Really
Speaker 3: it was it was, it was. There had been hundreds
Speaker 3: and thousands of text messages to reclaim the beach from
Speaker 3: the issues that had been going on down there, which
Speaker 3: will discuss a bit later, but then you know, and
Speaker 3: there was flag waving and barbecues and about five thousand
Speaker 3: people turned up on the beach down there that day,
Speaker 3: and they were a mixture of some locals, a lot
Speaker 3: of people that weren't from the area that had turned
Speaker 3: up because of the intense media which will ned out canvas,
Speaker 3: and also the thousands of tech hundreds of thousands of
Speaker 3: text messages. But look, as the day wore on, there
Speaker 3: was white supremacists turned up in the crowd in big
Speaker 3: utilities with jacked up suspension and eurek are stocking flags
Speaker 3: in the back, and they wanted to make a point.
Speaker 3: They were hardcore and they were not local. In fact,
Speaker 3: you'll see on the front of our book that we
Speaker 3: chose this particular photo on the front of the book.
Speaker 3: It is literally what ninety nine percent of the day
Speaker 3: looked like. There was lots and lots of police. We
Speaker 3: had prepared for a very likelihood of a very large
Speaker 3: public order incident, as all the rights squad were there
Speaker 3: and helicopters and boats in the water, and you know
Speaker 3: the police off here are dog squads and prison vans
Speaker 3: and so forth, so we were ready to go. But
Speaker 3: ninety of the day literally was the police watching the rubberneckers,
Speaker 3: and they rubberneckers watching this brookers in the crowd. And
Speaker 3: you'll see on that front cover, actually there's a guy
Speaker 3: there with his arms in the air. He's wearing The
Speaker 3: digital photo of this clear show shows it clearly, but
Speaker 3: he's wearing stars and stripes, red, white and blue bandana
Speaker 3: on his head and he's playing around. You can see
Speaker 3: the cameras around him with a fur big furry microphones
Speaker 3: and whatnot.
Speaker 2: So he's a white.
Speaker 3: Supremacist spooker that had turned up in the crowd and
Speaker 3: they started the trouble down there. They started chance and
Speaker 3: then the old kicked in and it went from there.
Speaker 1: We'll delve into it in detail just to get the
Speaker 1: sense of it. And I call it, I'm precedented in
Speaker 1: our modern modern times, the right of that nature, gathering
Speaker 1: that nature. Carl, were the police minister at the time
Speaker 1: when things were starting to escalate, and what was your
Speaker 1: take on what happened? And I should correct myself because
Speaker 1: it's not just the day. There was a lead up
Speaker 1: to it and there was the aftermath of it with
Speaker 1: the revenge attacks. But from a police minister's point of view,
Speaker 1: you're watching things unfault a.
Speaker 4: Couple of things. I was Police Minister for about a
Speaker 4: month when the mcquarie Fields riots happened.
Speaker 1: Okay, so experience.
Speaker 4: I had some concerns and about how we handled it.
Speaker 4: There was a really good internal inquiry process run by
Speaker 4: Deputy Commission Dave Madden, one of Australia's leading law and
Speaker 4: order experts on right response. Ron Mason was an important
Speaker 4: part of that and as a result we set up
Speaker 4: the Public Order and Riot Squad, which wasn't quite fully
Speaker 4: formed by the time the Cronulla rights.
Speaker 1: That was on the back of the Macquarie rights. Yes so.
Speaker 4: And just a few months later we had the Lifeguard
Speaker 4: biffo down at North Cronulla Beach, some lot of moral
Speaker 4: panic being projected by talkback radio and tabloid newspapers. And
Speaker 4: I was somewhat sad and gary when I went down
Speaker 4: to Cronulla in the lead up to that eleventh of
Speaker 4: December two thousand and five, seeing all these Australian flags
Speaker 4: draped over people's front yards and it made me feel
Speaker 4: not a huge number, but more than I'd really seen
Speaker 4: before in my public life. And then learning about all
Speaker 4: these text messages and clarion calls, I thought, Gee, there's
Speaker 4: some trouble going on here, and I sought the reassurance
Speaker 4: that we were prepared for it. And yes, I went
Speaker 4: down to the beach area with the premiere Assistant Commissioner
Speaker 4: Goodwin briefness and more importantly briefness on an escalation plan
Speaker 4: in case it got out of control. So I certainly
Speaker 4: felt trouble was brewing. It didn't look good, but I
Speaker 4: certainly felt police were ready for it.
Speaker 1: Okay, the pressure on both of you guys on that day,
Speaker 1: with the build up mark you, the senior officer, was
Speaker 1: responsible for managing all the what was going to occur
Speaker 1: on that day from a police response. I want to
Speaker 1: break it down and go into details the lead up
Speaker 1: to it and everything that happened, But just purely on
Speaker 1: a personal point of view. Yeah, you joined the cops,
Speaker 1: you expect expect pressure, but that was pressure on a
Speaker 1: large scale. How did it affect you personally just during
Speaker 1: the days that you were managing the situation here?
Speaker 3: Look, really the pressure was off the Richter scale, to
Speaker 3: be quite honest with her, and not so much on
Speaker 3: the day, but in the revenge attacks which will canvas later.
Speaker 3: But look, you know, nothing can prepare for something the
Speaker 3: size of what that turned out. But I certainly had
Speaker 3: a very extensive background as a criminal investigator and had
Speaker 3: run major homicide briefs like yourself, armedhold up squad, drug squad,
Speaker 3: undercover unit, and I'd been involved in hostage negotiators for
Speaker 3: over a decade and stuff. So I'd seen and been
Speaker 3: at the point end of operational activity. And luckily I'd
Speaker 3: spent five years also as our manager at Bankstown before
Speaker 3: I rose up to the lofty heights, and that very
Speaker 3: well prepared me for how the Middle Eastern community reacts
Speaker 3: and how they're policed and so forth.
Speaker 2: But the pressure.
Speaker 3: I don't think anything could prepare any person for the
Speaker 3: immense pressure that we were under. Because literally, and we'll
Speaker 3: talk about this later, but the you know, the following
Speaker 3: weekend even it was the largest public order police operation
Speaker 3: it's ever been run in Australia still to this date.
Speaker 3: So you know, we had to literally put the entire
Speaker 3: police service into a mode which was thankfully the new
Speaker 3: South Pols Police had run the Olympics four years before,
Speaker 3: in the year two thousand or five years before, sorry,
Speaker 3: And then you know that required the freeing up of
Speaker 3: an immense amount of resources from country regional areas and
Speaker 3: the logistics of having none of those people brought into
Speaker 3: Sydney and housing them and stuff.
Speaker 2: So I had to deal with all that.
Speaker 3: I had to deal with the legislative reform that we
Speaker 3: urgently needed, the actual operational activity, and it was just
Speaker 3: an immense operation.
Speaker 2: So there's a lot a lot.
Speaker 1: Of yeah, a lot of the move a lot of
Speaker 1: moving parts, and a lot of pressure and a lot
Speaker 1: of things that could go wrong. I must admit reading
Speaker 1: the book, even though I recall it, I recall it
Speaker 1: very clearly. I was a crime manager and all our
Speaker 1: troops have been taken away and we're trying to manage
Speaker 1: the LAC that I was in at the time, but
Speaker 1: it was virtually everyone had the roll. This leaves up
Speaker 1: and get involved, Carl. From a police minister's point of view,
Speaker 1: I would imagine I don't fully understand the world of politics,
Speaker 1: but I I would imagine there'd be a lot of
Speaker 1: phone calls going backwards and forwards, and pressure would have
Speaker 1: been on you in that role as well.
Speaker 4: It's a funny role police minister. Yes it's political. You're
Speaker 4: part of the cabinet room, but in a sense you
Speaker 4: sort of stand outside that process law enforcement, and for
Speaker 4: most of my time I was there. Commissioner and minister
Speaker 4: have to work hand in glove, and in some ways
Speaker 4: we overlap each other's roles to make it work. In
Speaker 4: some senses, I was co commissioner. Of course, the missioner
Speaker 4: can't work without full political support. A minister can't work
Speaker 4: without full commissioner support. My concern was to make sure
Speaker 4: the powers, the personnel and the resources were made available.
Speaker 4: That's what I could do and did do, and you
Speaker 4: might see in the book I didn't dwell too much
Speaker 4: on this, but the Macquarie Fields experience left me feeling
Speaker 4: the senior command weren't quite responsive enough that they could
Speaker 4: have been, so I was wary of it when this
Speaker 4: happened again, and I did say to Commissioner Maroni, the
Speaker 4: police force were not up to it. I'd be asking
Speaker 4: the Premier to seek soldiers, bring the military in. And
Speaker 4: he very quickly jumped to attention and made the entire
Speaker 4: police force available to Assistant Commissioner Goodwin. And that was
Speaker 4: a turning point at that point, and sadly I had
Speaker 4: to threaten it was a serious threat, but he showed
Speaker 4: me the police were up to it, they can work.
Speaker 1: Well. That makes sense because that is a huge call
Speaker 1: to involve the military in a law and order issue,
Speaker 1: and again almost unprecedented. So I could imagine when that's
Speaker 1: you made those murmurings that this might be the way
Speaker 1: we had to go. I could imagine the pressure that
Speaker 1: come a big call.
Speaker 5: Was I prepared to do it?
Speaker 4: Yes, I believe Prime Minister Howard would have made a
Speaker 4: quick amendment to the military legislation to allow soldiers to
Speaker 4: be used to quell dissent in a democracy. It's not
Speaker 4: a nice call, but I got to the point where
Speaker 4: I thought I may need to make it because I
Speaker 4: could see a macquarie Field's response slow, tardy, taking days
Speaker 4: to get to the point. We needed a quick response.
Speaker 4: And when he got that message, and I thank him
Speaker 4: for it, he responded and Assistant Commissioner Goodman literally had
Speaker 4: the entire New South Wales Police Force then at his
Speaker 4: disposal and the job they did was magnificent.
Speaker 1: Well, when we talk about and I got it pro
Speaker 1: your book, but I understand, I understood the new answers
Speaker 1: of what was going on, and it's something that could
Speaker 1: have very seriously escalated and not just basing Cronulla. And
Speaker 1: I know the revenge attacks were spread further, but it
Speaker 1: could have spread right across all of Sydney and white
Speaker 1: of Sydney.
Speaker 4: So I guess I approach When people ask me why
Speaker 4: did we write the book, there's a few reasons, and
Speaker 4: both of us have got different reasons, but essentially I
Speaker 4: want people to think of the questions what happened, what
Speaker 4: could have happened, and why did it happen?
Speaker 5: Now? What happened?
Speaker 4: A lot of people have got their own memories of
Speaker 4: what happened? What could have happened? Well, firstly what happened?
Speaker 4: A lot of people have forgotten the detail and it
Speaker 4: was pretty nasty, the revenge attacks because the videographic and
Speaker 4: photographic evidence is solely one sided. As Mark and I
Speaker 4: often say, if you google Cronulla Rides, you don't get
Speaker 4: any of the revenge attacks. So we think it's important
Speaker 4: what did happen needs to be recorded because the revenge
Speaker 4: attacks were off the charts compared to what happened at
Speaker 4: North Cronulla Beach.
Speaker 5: What could have happened?
Speaker 4: The intelligence coming to Mark and through Mark to me
Speaker 4: was frightening. Then of course why did it happen? Is
Speaker 4: a sociological analysis that we go through.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and we'll try and try and break that down
Speaker 1: as complex that that it is.
Speaker 4: For three important questions as to how we approach the.
Speaker 1: Book, and Mark in writing the book, was important to
Speaker 1: you to have the full story out there as well.
Speaker 3: Yeah, look Arry, over the years there's been a lot
Speaker 3: of stuff written about it. And look even now, every
Speaker 3: time the word racism is mentioned in Australia, the Cronella
Speaker 3: rights come to the fore and they wheel out the
Speaker 3: old footage of only the Caucasian issues on the beach
Speaker 3: during the day, and we thought it was important that
Speaker 3: the because there is such a skewed reporting and all
Speaker 3: the academic work that's been done since because what happened
Speaker 3: during the day, every media area in Sydney turned up.
Speaker 3: There'd been such a beat up and build up to it.
Speaker 3: Every journalist in Australia I think, was there on the day. So,
Speaker 3: I mean, as I've already mentioned, which is the front
Speaker 3: of our book, most of the day was the cops
Speaker 3: watching the rubberneckers, rubbineck watching the spreakers in the crowd,
Speaker 3: and then there it's got out of hand. So I
Speaker 3: counted only recently nine incidents that occurred that were of
Speaker 3: any significance or violence.
Speaker 2: Now, when you spread that.
Speaker 3: Out out over the entire day of over eight hours,
Speaker 3: it's a very very fake news to string that together
Speaker 3: in such short succession, like was done for the media
Speaker 3: that night with excited newsreader voiceovers to make it look
Speaker 3: like that five thousand strong crowd they're all participated in
Speaker 3: a Caucasian racist bender all day long, and it's just
Speaker 3: it's actually like fake news.
Speaker 2: Gary.
Speaker 3: So you know, in writing this book, we sort of
Speaker 3: wanted to correct the record on that, and it's just
Speaker 3: a factual account. Some people aren't going to like that,
Speaker 3: but it is a factual account from eight as out
Speaker 3: of exactly what did occur.
Speaker 1: Would it be fair to say, and you're quite right,
Speaker 1: both of you insaying you talk racism and quite often
Speaker 1: referred to Cronulla, the race rights and all that. I've
Speaker 1: been guilty of it. I have conversations with people and yeah,
Speaker 1: the Cronulla race rights. But the tension and the type
Speaker 1: of thing that occurred at Cronulla could very well have
Speaker 1: occurred in another location if the circumstances were different, like
Speaker 1: the fact that occurred at Crenulla. There was incidents that
Speaker 1: built up and then the text messages and I want
Speaker 1: to go through some of the text messages that you
Speaker 1: got in your book, and they're very inflammatory, but it
Speaker 1: was virtually a build up to what occurred on that day.
Speaker 1: Would that be fair to say?
Speaker 5: Over years?
Speaker 4: But Mark's probably better placed as a copper, But certainly
Speaker 4: all the accounts that come to us were it was
Speaker 4: building up over years and years of simmering tension with
Speaker 4: these young Lebanese Muslim use coming to the beach by
Speaker 4: train or by car, bear in mind it's the only
Speaker 4: beach in Sydney that you can come to by train.
Speaker 4: Misogynistic language, uncivil behavior, kicking sand in the faces of
Speaker 4: kids on the beach, what we call the towel versus
Speaker 4: the soccer ball. But a lot of it was inappropriate,
Speaker 4: offensive behavior, slightly below what you would call the police
Speaker 4: to come to the attention and some of the lifeguards,
Speaker 4: so they dealt with it, asked people to behave and
Speaker 4: they did. Sometimes police were called. But this simmered along
Speaker 4: and along along until those incidents towards the end of
Speaker 4: two thousand and five and people said, look, we've had
Speaker 4: enough of this, We're going to respond.
Speaker 1: Okay, I've watched not just read the book, but watched
Speaker 1: a lot of a lot of what the reporting was
Speaker 1: and the follow up report and all that. Then I've
Speaker 1: got to say my observation of it is there's good
Speaker 1: and bad in both communities. To say one community does this,
Speaker 1: like I saw people from Lebanese or Middle East and
Speaker 1: background that were mortified what was going on. And I
Speaker 1: saw the white Caucasians Anglo Saxons, if we want to
Speaker 1: call that. More THEI fied an escalation of a core
Speaker 1: group of people that created this situation.
Speaker 5: Let's look at the numbers.
Speaker 4: Two to three hundred Caucasian inebriated youth behaved in really
Speaker 4: offensive manner. Two to three hundred Lebanese or Arabic Muslims
Speaker 4: behaved in grossly violent manner. So that's less, well less
Speaker 4: than a thousand people. Does that invite academic social commentators
Speaker 4: media to scrub the slogan across Lakember and Cronulla of
Speaker 4: racist communities?
Speaker 5: Of course not.
Speaker 4: It is ridiculous, But that has what's happened. Because if
Speaker 4: you say you're studying racism in Australia, Marks right, you
Speaker 4: google Cronulla and it's the bastion of racism in Australia.
Speaker 1: It's not.
Speaker 4: You think two to three hundred people out of a
Speaker 4: crowd of five thousand in a community across Sutherland of
Speaker 4: two to three hundred thousand, it becomes absurd, just as
Speaker 4: to say Muslim Southwestern Sydney is violently anti Caucasian. For
Speaker 4: a start, there's more Catholics and Anglicans in southwestern Syney
Speaker 4: than there are Mos.
Speaker 1: And I see in your book, and it's very detailed,
Speaker 1: you break down the not just the religion, but the
Speaker 1: races in different areas, and the ethnic background and the
Speaker 1: crime and all that. So it's dissected.
Speaker 4: The challenge, sorry, Garry, is why did it go away?
Speaker 4: And it went away because we are not deeply racist.
Speaker 4: We don't hate each other in this carlais wonderful society.
Speaker 1: I think that's why it got so much attention, because
Speaker 1: I really think it shocked us all like it shocked
Speaker 1: us all that, oh that this is not the country
Speaker 1: we believe where we live in. And it blew up,
Speaker 1: blew up that way. Let's break down how it blew up.
Speaker 1: And a lot of it's been attributed to the I'd
Speaker 1: call it the catalyst that appeared to be with all
Speaker 1: that simmering tension that was built up over the years.
Speaker 1: There was two life savers that were assaulted. Was that
Speaker 1: the week before? Is that what prompted the text messages
Speaker 1: and the doing them throwing?
Speaker 3: Yeah, look it was in the lead up to Christmas.
Speaker 3: The media get a bit bored and I've got a theory.
Speaker 1: Come on, Carl, I work in the media, now, don't
Speaker 1: I've got have been there.
Speaker 3: Well, well, we know parliament's in recess and you're looking
Speaker 3: for a story and nearly every year, I'll challenge you
Speaker 3: to go and find it. But nearly every year is
Speaker 3: the Grinch that stole Christmas? So I mean looking for
Speaker 3: a sort. We remember the claver More wouldn't put up
Speaker 3: the Christmas decorations, so she was the Grinch.
Speaker 5: That shocking.
Speaker 1: Come on, we can't let polity.
Speaker 3: All the moll centers hadn't had working with children checks,
Speaker 3: so your children are not safe. The Grench has stolen
Speaker 3: for Christmas. Again, the massive media every year trying to
Speaker 3: they're board, they're trying to steal Christmas the great Who's
Speaker 3: the Grinch? So on this occasion of the crowd of yes, look,
Speaker 3: there was an a vicious assault on a lifeguard.
Speaker 2: But let's face it, it was a local assault.
Speaker 3: It should have been a local police matter, maybe got
Speaker 3: some local press and whatnot. But this was picked up
Speaker 3: by the media and then escalated beyond all proportion, that
Speaker 3: it was an assault on the sons of ANZACs and
Speaker 3: that the Lebanese Muslims who were responsible almost for the
Speaker 3: nine eleven attacks, had come to Australia and assaulted our
Speaker 3: lifeguards who work on the beach and volunteer their time
Speaker 3: all someone to save your life. That was just completely
Speaker 3: blown out of proportion by the media. And then you know,
Speaker 3: white supremocis supremacists stepped in, thought you beauty, rubbed their
Speaker 3: hands together and started coming to Cronulla handing out pamphlets
Speaker 3: trying to recruit people to these patriot groups.
Speaker 2: Then shock jocks got involved, talked it.
Speaker 3: Up, and listeners dialing in and more and more, and
Speaker 3: it just fed off each other, and there was more
Speaker 3: and more media to a point where there was literally,
Speaker 3: as I said, there's hundreds of thousands of text messages.
Speaker 3: And interestingly, in two thousand and five, social media didn't exist.
Speaker 3: Facebook was only less than a year old, and I
Speaker 3: think worldwide only had you know, less than a million
Speaker 3: yearss I think five six hundred, wasn't it thousand or something. Well,
Speaker 3: social media was just not a thing at that time.
Speaker 3: There was a new technology called the BlackBerry and mobile
Speaker 3: phones with the ability to mass text message or chain
Speaker 3: text message to everyone in your contact list, and that's
Speaker 3: what happened. So that became the modern clarion call and
Speaker 3: pamphlets hearing if you like, for a protest on the beach.
Speaker 3: So it was something we'd never experienced before and certainly
Speaker 3: not part of the risk assessment P.
Speaker 1: I would imagine like with the technology coming in, because
Speaker 1: it made it broader. Before people couldn't communicate them the
Speaker 1: mass way that they did with the text messages. But
Speaker 1: I take on board what you're saying about the media.
Speaker 1: If they grab that headline, they can fuel the fire
Speaker 1: and fuel the anger, and then then the nuhers I'll
Speaker 1: call them nothings that come out of the would work,
Speaker 1: the extreamers that come out of the woodwork and think,
Speaker 1: let's get on this.
Speaker 3: That's why the people at Cronulla are very angry locally
Speaker 3: that they've been stigmatized and blamed for all this because,
Speaker 3: like you know, what was a local simmering situation, and look,
Speaker 3: there's no doubt about it. There was a lot of
Speaker 3: acted in the community existing there and I don't think
Speaker 3: you're ever going to see something like this without it,
Speaker 3: and most definitely the behavior that was occurring on the
Speaker 3: beach down there. But you know, I've said that it's
Speaker 3: not about racism, and it was never about racism. And interestingly,
Speaker 3: the first quote in the book is by a Lebanese
Speaker 3: barrister who says that it wasn't racially inspired or motivated,
Speaker 3: but it was racially badged. We say that because like
Speaker 3: back in the fifties and sixties and seventies, you had
Speaker 3: groups like Rockers and Sharpies, then Westies and then Bankies
Speaker 3: coming from the western suburbs to the beach at Cronulla.
Speaker 3: As Carl said, it's the only beach with a train
Speaker 3: line of a weekend. And you know, there was fights
Speaker 3: on between surfers over the exact same issues. It was
Speaker 3: about behavior and about misogynistic comments to young girls, and
Speaker 3: it was about just they dressed differently, they act differently,
Speaker 3: and it's about chest beating and male pruning and dominance
Speaker 3: of the spatial domain down there and those sorts of
Speaker 3: fights that occurred. But back then it was all Coolcasians
Speaker 3: fighting each other. So fast forward to the early two
Speaker 3: thousands when the young Lebanese Muslim youth turned up there,
Speaker 3: and we're doing exactly the same thing. So when it
Speaker 3: used to be like f Off's West Is, fof bank Is,
Speaker 3: fof Sharpies and say forth, when it became f Off
Speaker 3: labs a racist, you're all racists.
Speaker 1: Okay, So you're saying that the issue was about the
Speaker 1: let's call it tribalism. It might not be the right word.
Speaker 1: But the locals with people coming into the beach, and
Speaker 1: I know, like I lived Inland and I served and
Speaker 1: I copt that sort of the ship when you're going
Speaker 1: to the beach on the Northern Beaches, So I know
Speaker 1: what you're saying about that, and then you're you're making
Speaker 1: the point if I'm understanding it, that Yeah, this incident
Speaker 1: occurred and it's been badged as racism, but it wasn't
Speaker 1: as simple or as simple as apps.
Speaker 4: Perhaps given an individual example. We have work health and
Speaker 4: safety laws now that are very attuned to inappropriate conduct
Speaker 4: at a workplace. So if you so something sexist or racist,
Speaker 4: misogynist as an individual, you have rights and there are consequences. So, yes,
Speaker 4: people said some misogynistic, sexist and racist things for which
Speaker 4: there is an accounting from one side. We've tried to
Speaker 4: make it as transparent and give accountability for what was
Speaker 4: said and done on the other side. But when you
Speaker 4: look at societal misogyny, tribal racism and sexism, there's got
Speaker 4: to be more than we're going to make your beach
Speaker 4: safe by stopping the misogynists or racists.
Speaker 5: There needs to be.
Speaker 4: Deeper explanation and so what, yes, we concede there were
Speaker 4: racial things and sexist things, and misogynistics said and done
Speaker 4: and quite violent reactions to the other. What motivated it? So, yes,
Speaker 4: if you get threatened or you feel uncomfortable as an individuals,
Speaker 4: sometimes you might blurt out in the workplace or in
Speaker 4: a public place something that is labeled correctly as sexist
Speaker 4: or politically deviant or morally unacceptable. But if a whole
Speaker 4: large group do it, there's something else going on. You
Speaker 4: can't just say that big chunk of three hundred people
Speaker 4: are all racist. And so we delve deeper and we
Speaker 4: came to the conclusion that when people feel threatened, they
Speaker 4: react deviantly, morally, politically, racially or in sexual derogatory terms.
Speaker 4: And what it invited Garin. This is the challenge for
Speaker 4: many from our book. Far from celebrating our multicultural Australia,
Speaker 4: we should be wary of it, respect it, understand it,
Speaker 4: acknowledge it, but celebrate what we have in common. How
Speaker 4: are we the same? For example, Jihad Dib, who's now
Speaker 4: a minister in the Men's government, he said, I don't
Speaker 4: have an Anzac story, but do you think I don't
Speaker 4: love barbecues and going to the Beach. Do you think
Speaker 4: I don't feel as Australian as everyone else just because
Speaker 4: I'm not connected to the Anzac story doesn't make me
Speaker 4: a not It doesn't make me not an Aussie. So
Speaker 4: we concluded far far more was going on in the
Speaker 4: minds that form the groups that cause the conflict between
Speaker 4: each other, and far more likely it was about could
Speaker 4: we do more? Should we have done more as a
Speaker 4: society to have found what binds us.
Speaker 1: And I think common ground?
Speaker 4: I think the consequences of Cronulla were the two communities
Speaker 4: found those bonds, for example in the Lifesaver program.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm really interested in that.
Speaker 4: I think they've done a lot more. Muslim leadership, leadership
Speaker 4: at a political, social, religious level, have been searching for
Speaker 4: ways where we can understand each other better. I think
Speaker 4: we learnt something out of this.
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, I'd like to think some good has come
Speaker 1: up of it, because it's a situation that no one
Speaker 1: was happy that occurred. That if some good can come
Speaker 1: from let's break it down.
Speaker 4: If someone comes up and pushes you out of the way,
Speaker 4: most folks, unfortunately, might be inclined to make a comment
Speaker 4: about their skin color. They're a male or a female,
Speaker 4: or have a beard, or have a pink dress on
Speaker 4: or a pink shirt. But that doesn't mean they're deeply
Speaker 4: motivated by that. It's just there was an incident, they
Speaker 4: felt threatened, they said something, they.
Speaker 1: Should and react. There's a lot of it. Say, we
Speaker 1: understand what happened with the text messages, and I just
Speaker 1: talk about talk about the text messages and from your
Speaker 1: book the quotes with the text messages. But before I do,
Speaker 1: I really take on board what you say about the
Speaker 1: media escalating it. There's a responsibility that comes in media,
Speaker 1: and I've learned that in the last couple of years
Speaker 1: working in the media that you can feel discontent and yeah,
Speaker 1: if something's given badge as a particular thing, or the
Speaker 1: headlines are given you, if it bleeds it leads that
Speaker 1: type of thing, you can cause problems with it. But
Speaker 1: these text messages, like there's no ambiguity about the text messages.
Speaker 1: And I'll read them out from both sides, so we're
Speaker 1: hearing it from both So from your book just some
Speaker 1: of the quotes, I'll do the Caucasian text messages sent
Speaker 1: by Caucasians or we're assuming Caucasians. Ozsi's this Sunday every
Speaker 1: fucking ossie in the Shy I get down to North
Speaker 1: Cronulla to help support lebon Wog bashing day. And then
Speaker 1: we've got one from Middle Eastern. All lebo Wog brothers
Speaker 1: Sunday midday must be at North Cranulla. These skippy Aussies want, well,
Speaker 1: bring your guns and knives and let's show them how
Speaker 1: we do it. Then there's one. And these aren't the
Speaker 1: text messages responding backwards and forwards to each other. These
Speaker 1: are the ones that have been sent out on a
Speaker 1: large scale from the Caucasian side. Bring your mates and
Speaker 1: let's show them this is our beach. And then never welcome.
Speaker 1: Let's kill these boys. And then from the Middle Eastern
Speaker 1: fight each ossi you lay, let's get hectic and turn
Speaker 1: God country in the wogs country bid we'll be cooking
Speaker 1: victory kebabs after. Tell all your cousins like they're inflammatory,
Speaker 1: aren't they You've read that. Who's a knucklehead that's been
Speaker 1: sending those out? But you send them out to Is
Speaker 1: it fair to assume the majority of people caught up
Speaker 1: in the escalation of revenge attacks and the violence on
Speaker 1: the day were young males. Yes, so this type of
Speaker 1: communication and I take on board what you say, Mark too.
Speaker 1: It's social media that we hadn't really experienced before. But
Speaker 1: this was virtually a call to arms from both sides.
Speaker 4: Chain was the first time there were chained texting, and
Speaker 4: so there were texts sent in their thousands, but often
Speaker 4: to groups of people that passed it on to groups
Speaker 4: of people. But I think one thing we do make
Speaker 4: clear in the book area is there needs to be
Speaker 4: something before a message telling you to do something motivates you.
Speaker 4: No one turns up in protests because Alan Jones talked
Speaker 4: it up on your show. Daily Telegraph ran a front
Speaker 4: page about a lifeguard being belted, So there was that
Speaker 4: kernel of resentment intentions, and then the pervasiveness of the
Speaker 4: message was off the charts compared to what had happened
Speaker 4: in recent years. Thousands and thousands of these messages and
Speaker 4: then the rest is history.
Speaker 1: And you've got people, and I'm taking on board, you've
Speaker 1: got people from outside coming in coming into coming in
Speaker 1: to represent Cronulla and coming in to represent the Middle
Speaker 1: Eastern side that weren't really associated with the original incident.
Speaker 4: They've brought bored into the irony. It'd be funny if
Speaker 4: it wasn't so serious? Is that a lot of the
Speaker 4: reasons why Cronulla Crop cops image is because of non
Speaker 4: locals coming in and stirring it up. Another unfair element
Speaker 4: of this awful image that did not warranted.
Speaker 1: Understand on the day mark, with this simmary and building up,
Speaker 1: when did you start to when did you start to
Speaker 1: become aware of Okay, we've got something something brilliant here.
Speaker 1: When was that sort of acknowledged and accepted.
Speaker 3: Look, there'd been simmering issues at the beach, which you've
Speaker 3: already discussed, and there was already an existing proactive police
Speaker 3: operation going on down there to deal with that. And then,
Speaker 3: like there is with all these rights and things around
Speaker 3: the world, there's a flash point. I think you only
Speaker 3: got look at the Paris rights, and that was a
Speaker 3: couple of kids who got electrocuted I think in a
Speaker 3: particular suburb, and it.
Speaker 2: Went from there. The next minute, the whole Paris is burning,
Speaker 2: you know.
Speaker 3: So the flash point in this was the assault on
Speaker 3: the lifeguards, but you know, the simmering tension underneath and
Speaker 3: bubbling to the surface.
Speaker 2: People had enough by then, So that was the final straw.
Speaker 3: Okay, And then so we're already aware of it, and
Speaker 3: I'd been speaking to Superintendent Robert Redfern, who was the
Speaker 3: local area commander at Cronull there about the forthcoming beach
Speaker 3: safe operations and so forth that sometimes I was a
Speaker 3: regional commander, so all those local commanders report to me.
Speaker 1: So just to explain that to people listening, I understand
Speaker 1: and Carl obviously understands. But you as a regional command
Speaker 1: to sit over the top of all the local area commands.
Speaker 3: That's correct, and then like twenty or something local commands
Speaker 3: under me. So if there's needs to move resources between
Speaker 3: things for special operations and all that sort of stuff,
Speaker 3: that becomes a decision at my level.
Speaker 2: And so those sort of things are under discussion.
Speaker 3: But once that flash point occurred and it was subject
Speaker 3: to the media, it was so normally the Kernala area
Speaker 3: sits at a low risk on the community Tensions Risk
Speaker 3: Assessment scale, and so we asked the local command to
Speaker 3: look at that. And then after that very first assault,
Speaker 3: it immediately came in as a medium risk. But then
Speaker 3: the media started and then the text messaging started, and
Speaker 3: we've already discussed that about how much that was and
Speaker 3: how at that extended the scope of it.
Speaker 1: So how did you guys become a way of the
Speaker 1: text messages where you you became aware of the magnitude
Speaker 1: and the nature of the text messages.
Speaker 3: Well, a lot of parents were reporting it to police
Speaker 3: because all their kids were getting it.
Speaker 2: It was targeted at youth, and and youth to youth.
Speaker 3: That mean if you hit your contact list and kids
Speaker 3: were stupidly passing it on to their others, friends and
Speaker 3: so forth. So it was growing and it was it
Speaker 3: was well known to us that it was occurring and
Speaker 3: the media and then you know, the media were printing
Speaker 3: what was contained in these text messages.
Speaker 2: It which inflators never ending round circle.
Speaker 4: You'd have to have been on Mars not to know
Speaker 4: something was about to happen. So as Minister I knew,
Speaker 4: Marcus Assistant Commissioner, you we prepared for it. But all
Speaker 4: that build up was almost like the air was crackling
Speaker 4: with static electricity.
Speaker 2: But then feel it. But then there was a second
Speaker 2: incident down there.
Speaker 3: And look even beforehand after journalists in Sydney were walking
Speaker 3: around Cronulla trying to create a story, looking for something,
Speaker 3: looking to film a fight between a Lebanese guy and
Speaker 3: a lifesaver or a Caucasian and another incident occurred on
Speaker 3: the esplanade down there and a cameras jumped all over
Speaker 3: it and it ended up the media got built it
Speaker 3: right and a camera smashed and the police were called
Speaker 3: and so forth, and then that then escalated again and
Speaker 3: the media really went to town. Then you know, look,
Speaker 3: it's true, we've got another example of and I think
Speaker 3: there was some lifesavers involved in that as well, off duty,
Speaker 3: and local passes by and local people, and it was
Speaker 3: like that was portrayed as a second attack on Cronulla
Speaker 3: and the lifeguards and the whole beach culture, and it
Speaker 3: was really really blown out of proportion. Again, So at
Speaker 3: that point, that's when that's when they're really wrapped up
Speaker 3: the text messaging and.
Speaker 2: The amount of media and stuff.
Speaker 3: So we had a meeting amongst the senior commanders and
Speaker 3: we overrode that risk assessment that was at that time medium,
Speaker 3: because these risk assessments take into account like is they're
Speaker 3: going to be a terrorist incident, is there going to
Speaker 3: be an explosion?
Speaker 2: And risk of those sorts of things is of course low, but.
Speaker 3: Risk of public order and disruption, assaults and those sorts
Speaker 3: of things is like high, if not extremely high. So
Speaker 3: when all balances out in those days, there was no
Speaker 3: part of that risk assessment that had anything to do
Speaker 3: with text mass text messaging or the amount of media
Speaker 3: that was generating in this public order incident. So we
Speaker 3: overrode that risk assessment and rose it to high risk.
Speaker 3: And that's when I, as a region commander and Assistant commissioner,
Speaker 3: that means that as a high risk incident, I then
Speaker 3: take that over personally, take it over personally conduct the planning.
Speaker 2: So we re met and bought in a hell of
Speaker 2: a lot.
Speaker 3: Of specialist resources and experts in public order management leading
Speaker 3: up to it to redo a plan based upon the
Speaker 3: high risk assessment and brief the Deputy commission of SCIPIONI
Speaker 3: at the time and Commissioner Marine that had been raised
Speaker 3: to high risk, and the Minister and Premier Maurice Yemma
Speaker 3: came down to Cronulla and spoke to us and we
Speaker 3: briefed them on the fact that I had been raised
Speaker 3: a higher risk and therefore that's the reason I have
Speaker 3: now taken it over personally and then gave them an
Speaker 3: assurance that the police resources that we were committing to
Speaker 3: it and then we all did a media press release
Speaker 3: warning the public about the intended police response to it
Speaker 3: on the beach that day.
Speaker 1: So appropriate in the circumstances to give an indication of
Speaker 1: what sort of responsibly if the actions get out of hand.
Speaker 1: From a political point of view, KRLA just fascinated that
Speaker 1: the premiers involved yourself as a police minister meeting with police.
Speaker 1: What was your feeling from a political point of view
Speaker 1: on what was going.
Speaker 4: To Firstly, I should mention the wider international local context
Speaker 4: which folks, younger folks don't even know about, but you
Speaker 4: and I Mark would well recall. Firstly, Task Force Gain
Speaker 4: like probably twenty very seriously violent Lebanese Muslim criminals had
Speaker 4: they been on the street. Goodness knows where this could
Speaker 4: have gone because the public were aware that the police
Speaker 4: and the government had responded and locked those men up.
Speaker 4: Then you had the scaff brother gang rapes, shocking crimes. Then,
Speaker 4: of course Muslim attacks on tourists in Bali and the
Speaker 4: London bombings as well, in both in two thousand and five,
Speaker 4: so there was a broader international local context. Sadly, for
Speaker 4: the Muslim Middle Eastern community, it was like they were
Speaker 4: attacking Caucasian Australia. They weren't ridiculous, but there was a
Speaker 4: broader context.
Speaker 5: But from my.
Speaker 4: Perspective as the local police minister, I felt we were
Speaker 4: in good hands. The Premier and I are very concerned
Speaker 4: about what I said. You could hear that, feel this
Speaker 4: crackle in the air. Something was going to happen. But
Speaker 4: we were reassured with justification. Of course, dissent was quelled,
Speaker 4: order was restored, Peace return to the suburbs and streets
Speaker 4: of Sydney, and that awful fear people had for a
Speaker 4: period of time evaporated. Why did it evaporated because the
Speaker 4: police dealt with it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And I think that's it's probably not fully appreciated
Speaker 1: how bad it could have gone. And we're going to
Speaker 1: talk about some of the things that followed up with
Speaker 1: the revenge attacks and some of the intel that you got.
Speaker 1: Talk us about the daymark. So you've got your resources,
Speaker 1: there's an understanding, you've got support from the politicians, you've
Speaker 1: got yourself, you're in control of the situation. Now talk
Speaker 1: us about the day of the build up for the
Speaker 1: day and did you have enough resources? Were you happy
Speaker 1: with the things that you put in place at that time.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 3: Well, during the day, as I said, it was a
Speaker 3: barme summer day. You know, hot people just turned up
Speaker 3: their rubberinecking, which just.
Speaker 1: In itself too doesn't help, does it when it's a
Speaker 1: hot because it brings people to the So you've probably
Speaker 1: got an extra fifty percent of people turned up that
Speaker 1: wouldn't normally.
Speaker 2: Talks training, the wouldn't have been anyone, like most people.
Speaker 5: Were looking at people looking at people.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 3: Yeah, And the reality is, like, you know, throughout the morning,
Speaker 3: it was like a carnival down there, you know.
Speaker 2: Like pretty much like Australia Day.
Speaker 3: There was people walking around draped in the Australian flag
Speaker 3: with you know, the face tattoos of the Australian flag,
Speaker 3: and they're having barbecues and the back of uts and
Speaker 3: there's singing of the national anthem and all singing Matilda.
Speaker 3: And even look that this local surf club they've pret
Speaker 3: the CEO down there approached me and said, look, we've
Speaker 3: got a pre planned new surfboat to launch today. It's
Speaker 3: a big thing for the club and sponsors are turning
Speaker 3: up and then nippers were going to carry it down
Speaker 3: on their shoulders and it's going to be launched and stuff,
Speaker 3: we should we go ahead with that or cancel it?
Speaker 3: And I said, well, mate, you couldn't get a more
Speaker 3: patriotic crowd than when you got here at the moment.
Speaker 2: So that occurred and the crowd we're cheering on and
Speaker 2: blah blah blah.
Speaker 3: But you know, you don't see any of this in
Speaker 3: the media because it didn't suit the agenda.
Speaker 1: Gary, Could I yeah, I take on ball what you say,
Speaker 1: but could I just throw this in as a counterpoint
Speaker 1: that that patriotic display was people turning up saying well,
Speaker 1: this is this is our land, this is our beach,
Speaker 1: and yeah, the nothers and there were nothings out there
Speaker 1: saying you know, we'll fight you on the beach and
Speaker 1: that type of stuff. But could that be I'm just
Speaker 1: throwing this out. Could that be misinterpreted from the Middle
Speaker 1: Eastern side. It's almost like waving the flag.
Speaker 3: You know, it was, it was and has been and
Speaker 3: has been since there's been a huge downturn in the sales,
Speaker 3: even in an Australia day. I mean, look at last
Speaker 3: year with alls. They didn't have the Australia stuff on stuff.
Speaker 3: And you look immediately after the Cornelia Race, the very
Speaker 3: next year, I noticed it was almost dead in Coronela
Speaker 3: and Australia because people were embarrassed about it, because the
Speaker 3: Australian flag undoubtedly had been used as a symbol of
Speaker 3: this is ours. We belong here, you don't. And there
Speaker 3: were slogans on people's chests you know, we grew here,
Speaker 3: you flew here, and all this sort of rubbish, which
Speaker 3: was stupid young people thinking it's funny. And then you know,
Speaker 3: the alcohol took hold hot day and there was literally
Speaker 3: decisions on the shoulders coming down the the King's Way
Speaker 3: there into the into the area where the protest was
Speaker 3: being grog galore, and and once the alcohol kicked in,
Speaker 3: the violence started. The sprookers in the crowd then thought,
Speaker 3: you beauty, they've played up to the cameras.
Speaker 2: They've started chance far off labs in the crowds.
Speaker 3: And then there was a couple of Lebanese young people
Speaker 3: that were chanced upon down there and it was sulted.
Speaker 1: What was the story there? What what happened?
Speaker 2: There were most disgraceful behavior.
Speaker 3: I mean, you know, there was some Lebanese people that
Speaker 3: turned up at Cronola that day that were viciously assaulted undoubtedly,
Speaker 3: but the police were all over it.
Speaker 2: They snuffed it out quickly.
Speaker 3: I mean, we copped accusations later that the police were
Speaker 3: wandering around unsupervised by command.
Speaker 2: That's rubbish.
Speaker 3: Everything that the history shows and the the footage shows
Speaker 3: is that every single incident was immediately swarmed upon by
Speaker 3: a large number of police and snuffed out. And as
Speaker 3: I said to before, I think that throughout the entire
Speaker 3: day like nothing, nothing occurred basically by lunchtime at all,
Speaker 3: and the media was standing around looking with palpable looks
Speaker 3: on their faces like they were all going to get
Speaker 3: sacked when they went in because of the amount that
Speaker 3: they'd blown it up in the in the.
Speaker 1: Lead up, and they had they had story for the
Speaker 1: six o'clock.
Speaker 2: Had a dark egg? Is it nothing to go back with?
Speaker 3: And look you can see on the front of the
Speaker 3: book there that one of the spirit because he's surrounded
Speaker 3: by literally desperate cameras and furry microphones and trying to
Speaker 3: get something, you know, and that was baiting then the crowd,
Speaker 3: you know, and those people anyone that started that became
Speaker 3: the focus of all the media cameras and it was
Speaker 3: like they were you know, you know what, young.
Speaker 2: Blokes arelike with alcohol.
Speaker 3: They started playing up to the cameras, so recipe for disaster.
Speaker 1: What what was brewing there that those two young Lebanese
Speaker 1: blakes that got assault of those they're the ones that
Speaker 1: the police have detected them and got the out there.
Speaker 2: Look, there wasn't just that.
Speaker 3: There was a number of these things occurred and it
Speaker 3: was one incident where the police decided to evacuate those
Speaker 3: people in there in an ambulance that was there and
Speaker 3: there was all bottles thrown at the ambulance. Now there
Speaker 3: wasn't Australian throwing bottles at ambulance, you know, that was
Speaker 3: unheard of. It was because there was a couple of
Speaker 3: young Lebanese people in there getting transported. And then you
Speaker 3: know the media really have grabbed onto that. There was
Speaker 3: an incident at the Coronella railway station where it went
Speaker 3: around the crowd like wildfire that all the Lebanese from
Speaker 3: the western suburbs were on the train and coming down
Speaker 3: to attack Coronella. So hundreds of youth ran from the
Speaker 3: beach to the railway station. It was like a swarm
Speaker 3: and looks what's going on here? Where the police at
Speaker 3: the police command. You know, and that's what it was.
Speaker 3: And there's two two young Lebanese boys on the train
Speaker 3: that I don't think even knew what was happening at Coronella.
Speaker 1: That probably just probably.
Speaker 2: Just oblivious to it anyway.
Speaker 3: So literally dozens of these inebriated Caucasian Bagans got onto
Speaker 3: the train and started violently assaulting these young boys, and
Speaker 3: it was disgraceful behavior. And that was captured by cameras
Speaker 3: from all sorts of angles on that carriage and Sergeant
Speaker 3: Craig Campbell who was there wilding the baton Milo.
Speaker 2: So that's so that's ingrained in Australian history.
Speaker 3: That imagery, right, Yeah, it's an iconic everyone knows, everyone
Speaker 3: knows they're big.
Speaker 2: And he says to us, like.
Speaker 3: Those young Caucasian boys should have named better the deal
Speaker 3: with a one hundred and fifty kilo black like me,
Speaker 3: within a six foot of spun al aluminium in his hand,
Speaker 3: and off he went, and he says, so I'd go
Speaker 3: him a tune up with Milo, And then Carl and
Speaker 3: I have looked at each other when because he's interviewed
Speaker 3: in our books, he looked at Milo, Craig, what do
Speaker 3: you call your baton? Milo, he goes, Oh, it's marvelous
Speaker 3: what a different Milo makes.
Speaker 4: Okay, but that incident is the best of law enforcement
Speaker 4: in this country and the worst of young male behavior.
Speaker 4: But it becomes iconographic of what happened in the entire
Speaker 4: transaction over that summer, and it's not it was shocking.
Speaker 4: It was offensive, and it was dealt with by law enforcement,
Speaker 4: but it's a small number of offensive young males, and
Speaker 4: far worse behavior happened in the next few days that
Speaker 4: no one really knows about.
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, we are again to talk about all the
Speaker 1: things that happened after there on that day. A couple
Speaker 1: of things that you managed to speak to licensed premises
Speaker 1: and stop the service of alcohol, was that one of
Speaker 1: the things. But that was only on the voluntary.
Speaker 2: Rob Redfern, the local commander down there, and his police
Speaker 2: had a very good relationship through a liquor licensing accord
Speaker 2: with the local licensed premises there, and you know, once
Speaker 2: was noted that the alcohol was grabbing control and people
Speaker 2: were walking down the Kingsway from bottle shops and the
Speaker 2: pub there and everything, they quite willingly show down their
Speaker 2: alcohol sales, and I think that made a very big
Speaker 2: difference to be honest with you, Goodness knows what would
Speaker 2: have occurred if the alcohol kept flowing because it was
Speaker 2: completely shut off. So hats off to those suppliers.
Speaker 3: That very much cooperated with the place on the day,
Speaker 3: and hats off to the local police there that already
Speaker 3: had that existing relationship that they could request that and
Speaker 3: it was acceeded to quite quickly by those licensed premises.
Speaker 1: So how many you might have the exact figures, But
Speaker 1: the arrests that took place on that day were was
Speaker 1: it more about quelling the right? Not so much about
Speaker 1: their rest but what took place on the on the day?
Speaker 5: I thought it was mostly following up.
Speaker 2: There was a rest, There was a rest made on
Speaker 2: the day.
Speaker 5: Mostly strike force innaugur.
Speaker 3: Mostly immediate things that occurred and scuffles with police. There
Speaker 3: were people arrested on the day, but there was all
Speaker 3: that imagery was seized or sought by the police from
Speaker 3: media outlets, wonderful evidence.
Speaker 1: You can't you can't beat the video.
Speaker 3: How rest came from investigation follow ups of incidents that
Speaker 3: occurred that were captured on camera.
Speaker 1: So the day, how long did this go on for?
Speaker 1: When did it settle down? Because I would imagine you
Speaker 1: didn't get much sleep that day or the next couple
Speaker 1: of days, or any sleep summer.
Speaker 3: So it went from early mid morning right through till
Speaker 3: by about four or five o'clock, I think the partners
Speaker 3: had enough and we'd start shot shut the alcohol off,
Speaker 3: and we actually came up with a deliberate strategy to
Speaker 3: because there was nothing occurring. They were mulling around and
Speaker 3: people were bored, and you know, all the chanting had stopped,
Speaker 3: and as the afternoon sun setting and so forth, and like,
Speaker 3: we had a deliberate strategy. We actually removed quite a
Speaker 3: number of the police deliberately off the street. We put
Speaker 3: them into a holding area, fed them and debriefed them,
Speaker 3: but they were ready to go again.
Speaker 2: We're right in the middle of it, which.
Speaker 1: Was very very I thought that was managed well because
Speaker 1: quite often if you put the police and draw the
Speaker 1: line antagonizes people to fight them.
Speaker 3: Yeah, how often you see the police line there with
Speaker 3: the batons and shields out and everything, and oh, that's
Speaker 3: a signal we've got to fight the cops, you know.
Speaker 2: So we we didn't have that. We had police.
Speaker 3: It's strong numbers of police in groups walking through the crowd,
Speaker 3: chatting to people, throughout the day. There's only a couple
Speaker 3: of incidents and times that we did need to put
Speaker 3: those lines in, static lines in And it was being
Speaker 3: very well managed by very experienced police commanders on the
Speaker 3: scene down there, who were experts in public order management
Speaker 3: that we're working for us and they're very very good
Speaker 3: at what they do and very good at reading crowd
Speaker 3: behavior and crowd dynamics. So it wasn't about usket antagonizing
Speaker 3: the crowd down there. And it's difficult decisions to make
Speaker 3: about how to police that because often police are seen
Speaker 3: as the face of government and someone to fight.
Speaker 1: Yeah, well were angry people.
Speaker 3: And turn that you can turn a protest against against
Speaker 3: the police. But like it, there was chance going on
Speaker 3: all day. Three cheers for the police and like there's
Speaker 3: a guy down there we talk about in the book,
Speaker 3: Glenn Steel. He's a local rugby league player that played
Speaker 3: reserved for the Sharks and he's a surfer and he's
Speaker 3: very well regarded, big.
Speaker 2: Solid, young blake.
Speaker 3: We're not young black, big solid black, and he's got
Speaker 3: a hairy back and he had no shirt on and
Speaker 3: he's got an Aussie cap on and he's up on
Speaker 3: a milk crate with a with a megaphone.
Speaker 2: So that ends up the front page of the paper
Speaker 2: the next day.
Speaker 3: Look at this bogan inciting the riots and I had
Speaker 3: phone calls. Oh that bloke's Mark. That's bloke going to
Speaker 3: be the first one in the dock. Look at him
Speaker 3: there inciting the right. Well you know what he was doing.
Speaker 3: He's up in his milk crate with a megaphone. He's
Speaker 3: yelling out, cops are tops, starting chance, cops are tops.
Speaker 3: And he's yelling out, right, are you people? We're not
Speaker 3: here to fight the police today. They're white man like us.
Speaker 3: And he starts singing three cheers for the cops and
Speaker 3: then you know, we'll sing Matilda. So I've said to
Speaker 3: the police executive, mate, if this guy gets charged, I'll
Speaker 3: be the first one to give evidence for him.
Speaker 2: Let's not listen to the media hype here. How's this
Speaker 2: blake inciting? All right?
Speaker 1: Is that that's the sort.
Speaker 2: Of garbage that was going on.
Speaker 1: I understand that, but it's also people might say, well,
Speaker 1: let's whip him the crowd up into a frenzy, that
Speaker 1: that type of thing, because I know when I speak
Speaker 1: to people from Middle Eastern background, if they refer to
Speaker 1: that fellow that they look at him, as you said
Speaker 1: in the media, as this Aussie bogan. But there's a
Speaker 1: bit more depth to it.
Speaker 2: Because I say he was portrayed. Yeah, that's what I
Speaker 2: was saying. There was a surf.
Speaker 3: Butt launch, there was all the ninety nine percent of
Speaker 3: the day just people standing and milling around. There's Glenn
Speaker 3: Steele and he's sing yelling in a singing Willson Matilda
Speaker 3: and three cheers for the cops. You don't see any
Speaker 3: footage or imagery of that's all been buried and sliced.
Speaker 4: So the question what is truth? Truth needs to rest
Speaker 4: upon facts and evidence, and we challenge a truth that
Speaker 4: the Shire is a racist part of Australia. And so
Speaker 4: there's a microscopic example of truth. The truth presenter was
Speaker 4: that this character inside a riot. What's the broader context
Speaker 4: and circumstances something quite different.
Speaker 1: Well, Carl, I'll buy into that and say I see
Speaker 1: that image because I'm watching from from the outside that
Speaker 1: see that image, and I'm thinking he would have been
Speaker 1: one of the people running down the street. But you're saying, no,
Speaker 1: he wasn't one of them.
Speaker 4: Said a few things that are unhelpful we're here to
Speaker 4: take the beach back from the labs, and they're not
Speaker 4: our friends and all that. But he was just shirting
Speaker 4: his mouth off. And then three cheers for the cops.
Speaker 4: The cops, the tops, they're like us. He was just
Speaker 4: shirting his mouth off on a milk crate. He wasn't
Speaker 4: inciting a right.
Speaker 1: I suppose because it was such a powder keg. But
Speaker 1: they're the little things that can set people off. But
Speaker 1: the actual day, would you say from because I think
Speaker 1: it's I think we're very fortunate in this country, and
Speaker 1: maybe not fortunate in the luck side of it, fortunate
Speaker 1: because of people like yourself keeping this under control. That
Speaker 1: could have gone really bad that that whole day, And
Speaker 1: I think maybe just this is just my thought, maybe
Speaker 1: a little bit of Australian apathy comes into it that
Speaker 1: you know, you said the day's finished, like, well, it's
Speaker 1: been a long day, we've been out in the sun.
Speaker 1: That's time to go home. But I really think I
Speaker 1: think that was a proud moment in policing, not a
Speaker 1: bad moment in policing, that we managed to keep and
Speaker 1: keep the lid on. Potentially a power king because we
Speaker 1: see in other countries, other countries that are not this
Speaker 1: similar to the makeup of what we've got here, where
Speaker 1: the riots just go on for days and days and days,
Speaker 1: and yeah, a huge amount of properties.
Speaker 4: Sadly, there are places in the world where different groups
Speaker 4: of people really do hate each other and it's gone
Speaker 4: on for decades. We don't hate each other in this country.
Speaker 4: We might have a disregard around certain circumstances and were responding.
Speaker 4: There's a bit of a protest, but then we move
Speaker 4: on generally, that's been our history of protest.
Speaker 3: It was gary, but there was plenty of place there
Speaker 3: on the day and we had it in hand. And
Speaker 3: I just also like to thank the Muslim community and
Speaker 3: Muslim leaders that on that day were putting the message
Speaker 3: out to stay away, because I think if a lot
Speaker 3: of these young Lebanese boys had it turned up, it
Speaker 3: would have turned into a far worse situation. Yeah, you know,
Speaker 3: curdos to those guys too for what they actually did.
Speaker 3: I think, and most particularly we'll probably talk about that
Speaker 3: in a minute, But that night and onto the next
Speaker 3: few days as well as that's.
Speaker 5: When it's very important point.
Speaker 4: Jamal Reefy, one of the community leaders, he said, when
Speaker 4: these guys came back from their revenge attacks that evening.
Speaker 4: We were making it clear they were criminals, they're not heroes,
Speaker 4: they're not speaking on our behalf. And he said that
Speaker 4: message went right through the community.
Speaker 1: And that that makes a world of difference, doesn't it.
Speaker 1: So from and I'll take it to the personal point
Speaker 1: of view with you guys, and then we'll move on
Speaker 1: into the revenge attacks in the second part. How at
Speaker 1: the end of the day, mark, I know when I've
Speaker 1: been involved in big operations, but not on that magnitude.
Speaker 1: But you've got nothing left in the team and you
Speaker 1: get home and you go, what the hell was that?
Speaker 1: How did you feel after that day? Did you you
Speaker 1: o the bed? If you went the bed but had
Speaker 1: a sense of achievement that you three am that day?
Speaker 3: That day turned into weeks with me with no slip,
Speaker 3: As I said, you know that, look the daytime events
Speaker 3: and I know you'll just talk about the Revenger takes
Speaker 3: in part two in a minute, but you know, the
Speaker 3: daytime was just the warm up. To be honest with you,
Speaker 3: what came from there was tenfold worse when the real
Speaker 3: pressure started. But it was exhausting because you know, there's
Speaker 3: all the build up to make sure everything's going to
Speaker 3: go right on the day too, So it's a lot
Speaker 3: of preparation and planning. Then there's actual day itself and
Speaker 3: then you know, what, what what what occurred and we
Speaker 3: were luckily prepared for it with a big escalation plan,
Speaker 3: but what did occur then was exhausting to the extreme,
Speaker 3: and it's been the largest you know, as I said,
Speaker 3: operation ever run in public order in New South Wales
Speaker 3: leading that later that week and special sitting of Parliament
Speaker 3: and I'm sure we'll explore all those sort of things.
Speaker 1: Yeah, well that's what we'll get into, Carl. From a
Speaker 1: political point of view, the position you in saw what
Speaker 1: transpired on that day, were you what were your feelings?
Speaker 4: And initially seeing the night news, shocked, horrified, and like
Speaker 4: many I formed the view, this is a racist community
Speaker 4: that's just gone out of control. Okay, so over the
Speaker 4: years I've reflected, but certainly when I saw the revenge
Speaker 4: attacks unfold and the intelligence came in, I could see
Speaker 4: that was off the charts compared to what even on
Speaker 4: the first evening was presented to the public and what
Speaker 4: had been basically daily briefings between Mark and I leading
Speaker 4: up became hourly conversation.
Speaker 1: You didn't move in.
Speaker 5: Might as well if we.
Speaker 4: Were constantly and what was great, And Marks was a
Speaker 4: great commander, He didn't mind I was dealing with his
Speaker 4: local area commanders because things were happening that I wanted
Speaker 4: to know about. But we were really working hand in
Speaker 4: glove effectively for weeks, and it was a terrific partnership.
Speaker 4: But it was quite shocking. And when you look at
Speaker 4: the videos, it is shocking. Yeah, but it's not the truth. Yes,
Speaker 4: it happened. Those images are real, they're not fake, but
Speaker 4: how they were spliced together gives a fake truth. Okay,
Speaker 4: that's and that's a difficult argument to try and present
Speaker 4: to people that the images are real, but it presents
Speaker 4: a story that doesn't explain the wider context in which
Speaker 4: they sit and the simplest thing. First, these are a
Speaker 4: small number of events that happened over a short period
Speaker 4: of time, in an eight hour period. Secondly, not a
Speaker 4: fraction as bad as what followed over the next several days,
Speaker 4: which is unrecorded. Okay, so don't point the finger at
Speaker 4: one community because of that presentation, you're not hearing or
Speaker 4: seeing both sides of us.
Speaker 1: Well, I see in your book. You've gone the great
Speaker 1: deal of effort to make sure you're getting versions from
Speaker 1: all different sides and reporting on the truth. And I'm
Speaker 1: a big one for the truth is what should stand.
Speaker 1: It's not the images or whatever. What's the story behind it?
Speaker 1: Where are the real facts? I just want to before
Speaker 1: we finish part one, touch on something that I think,
Speaker 1: even in adversity, some good comes from it. And who
Speaker 1: was our mate, the big fella, Craig Campbell willing his
Speaker 1: baton called Milo.
Speaker 5: I love Craig Campbell.
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, he's a hero of the rights. I think
Speaker 1: that a lot of people look at that's the type
Speaker 1: of police we need in that situation. That's doing your job,
Speaker 1: standing up when you really need to need to do
Speaker 1: your job. And he was very willing in what he did.
Speaker 1: But my observation, because I was in the tactical response
Speaker 1: group Rights and that type of thing, it needed that
Speaker 1: response at that time, literally saving those people's lives, the
Speaker 1: two young fellas lives needed that type of reaction. But
Speaker 1: he fell on hard times after.
Speaker 5: It really awful.
Speaker 4: But he's a classic case of proportionate use of force
Speaker 4: by a law enforcement officer. Even in the interview when
Speaker 4: he said he'd got into Intel on the radio. He
Speaker 4: shot up there with a colleague, jumped out of the car.
Speaker 4: He could see what was happening, and he said, I
Speaker 4: didn't have any capsicum spray because I'd already used it
Speaker 4: earlier in the day, and I was sure as hell
Speaker 4: wasn't going to pull the gun out my gun out
Speaker 4: of its holster. All I had was the baton, So
Speaker 4: he said, I started swinging.
Speaker 2: Now.
Speaker 4: It was a proportionate response to a very violent situation
Speaker 4: of a large number of youths. And you can see
Speaker 4: the respect of the police even in these violent individuals.
Speaker 4: They weren't there to take the cops on and when
Speaker 4: they saw Craig Campbell confronting them with a baton, they
Speaker 4: pulled their heads in and pulled away, and he could
Speaker 4: rescue them. But he was recommended for an award never given,
Speaker 4: then accused of using excessive force and humiliated out of
Speaker 4: his police career. That was outrageous.
Speaker 1: It's a sad story, isn't it.
Speaker 4: He did fall on hard times and the Muslim community
Speaker 4: ran a couple of fundraisers.
Speaker 1: That's the point I wanted to make, And that's like
Speaker 1: I'm reading through the book, And yeah, I don't think
Speaker 1: there's many people that wouldn't have that image bettered in
Speaker 1: their mind at some stage. It's such an iconic image
Speaker 1: and wondering what actually happened to him, and I was
Speaker 1: sad to see that what the way he was treated
Speaker 1: and fell on hard times. Even in your book, I
Speaker 1: think he mentions that he started going to Vinnie's, Saint Vincent's.
Speaker 4: But there's a good end story mark what did you
Speaker 4: do and what did we do at the book launch?
Speaker 3: Yeah, look, Craig, undoubtedly Craig Campbell is that it's the
Speaker 3: era of the riots.
Speaker 2: In my view, he stood up when it counted.
Speaker 3: You know, he stood up and he protected those young
Speaker 3: Lebanese boys on the train and you know, I think
Speaker 3: they could have even been possibly even killed, the amount
Speaker 3: of fists and it was getting crowned, absolutely disgusting, disgraceful.
Speaker 2: Behavior, and he stood up when it counted.
Speaker 3: And I remember that night in the command post, the
Speaker 3: commissioner had turned up. The commissioner said to him because
Speaker 3: he I wanted to know who it was and that
Speaker 3: imagery they've just seen on the toe. He said to
Speaker 3: him something, I should put you in charge of my
Speaker 3: Baton's Training unit Weapons training unit, and then he was
Speaker 3: recommended by me and up the chain through his local
Speaker 3: commander for a commissioner's commendation, which he should have been awarded, undoubtedly,
Speaker 3: but should have been awarded. I don't know to this
Speaker 3: day why it hasn't been. But he tells me that
Speaker 3: he was accused by superiors of using excessive force and
Speaker 3: driven out of the workplace and to a point where
Speaker 3: he had a mental breakdown. And then he was on
Speaker 3: the streets literally because he's not a preadiator, he's a
Speaker 3: post eighty eight employee, which is a different super fund.
Speaker 3: And he was really struggling, and he'll admit that now,
Speaker 3: but he was literally garn A sin Vincent's to Paul's
Speaker 3: for food. And then the Muslim community found out about this,
Speaker 3: and despite the fact that his own organization that he
Speaker 3: showed so much loyal had treated him like that and
Speaker 3: turned their back on him, the Muslim community stood up
Speaker 3: and they ran quite a number of fundraisers for him
Speaker 3: and sporting events and so forth, and you know what,
Speaker 3: they were very highly attended and a lot of people
Speaker 3: chipped in, and he wouldn't be where he used today,
Speaker 3: and he's re established his life right north, and he's
Speaker 3: going pretty good, and I check on with him.
Speaker 2: I check in on with him on a regular basis.
Speaker 3: But when we did our book launch, the minute seems
Speaker 3: that the Commissioner's commendation was never awarded.
Speaker 2: I still don't know to this date.
Speaker 3: During the writing of this book, the Minister and I
Speaker 3: applied under a thread of information for the.
Speaker 2: Police file on that we were denied.
Speaker 1: Access secret police business, national security, national security like that.
Speaker 2: And I find it horrifying.
Speaker 3: And I think, after we've finished all lest we're going
Speaker 3: to pursue this again, and I'll put them on notice
Speaker 3: of that because I'll not rest on this matter because
Speaker 3: he should have been awarded that and every single police
Speaker 3: officer in person in Arabic and Caucasian community that I've
Speaker 3: spoken to belief too. And anyway, so yeah, he's at
Speaker 3: Parliament House. He didn't know, but we stood him up
Speaker 3: and we awarded We awarded him the Police Minister, former
Speaker 3: police Minister and former police awarded him a nice award
Speaker 3: from us for his bravery encourage the shade on the day.
Speaker 1: That good on you and well done to both of
Speaker 1: you for standing up on what you believe it's interesting.
Speaker 4: I've had a couple of friends who've read the book
Speaker 4: and they've dropped me.
Speaker 5: Note, said Craig Campbell. Is he okay?
Speaker 4: And what's a wonderful process of the book when those
Speaker 4: sort of human interest stories are taken up by people
Speaker 4: such as yourselves and others and understand it was disgraceful
Speaker 4: what happened to him. It's it's a nice story. I
Speaker 4: don't think he minds me saying he was in tears
Speaker 4: as he got the award, and he bought himself a
Speaker 4: new suit and looked fabulous, and a lot of people
Speaker 4: said it was a terrific thing that I did, which
Speaker 4: I think it was, but we shouldn't have had to
Speaker 4: do it.
Speaker 1: Shouldn't have to do it. I like the fact that
Speaker 1: the Muslim community have put their arm around him, around
Speaker 1: him too. And I'd go as far as to say,
Speaker 1: and this is where we're talking about the powder keg
Speaker 1: of that day the eleventh, that if those kids were killed,
Speaker 1: could you imagine trying to keep a lid on what
Speaker 1: went on then? So his actions and I don't think
Speaker 1: you're stretching the truth there at all, that his actions
Speaker 1: may have prevented those guys being killed. If they were killed,
Speaker 1: could you imagine how you would have had to try
Speaker 1: and keep a lid on the situation there.
Speaker 4: You guys are closer to this than I am. But
Speaker 4: we've all heard of the one inch punch, the coward punch.
Speaker 4: I mean, here was what a bunch of guys held
Speaker 4: bent on causing harm. It wouldn't have taken much, uncontrolled
Speaker 4: by Craig Campbell, for those two to have been killed.
Speaker 4: And you're right, Goodness knows where that might have gone.
Speaker 1: Okay, well, how about we end part one and come back.
Speaker 1: And I'm finding the chat fascinating, guys, And when we
Speaker 1: come we'll talk about the aftermath or the Revenger taxes
Speaker 1: we refer to them, and the type of situations that
Speaker 1: you're dealing with, and the intel that was coming in
Speaker 1: and the potential powder keg that you were sitting on,
Speaker 1: not just on that day but for a number of
Speaker 1: weeks past.
Speaker 5: Thank you,