1 00:00:01,880 --> 00:00:04,880 Speaker 1: The public has had a long held fascination with detectives. 2 00:00:05,360 --> 00:00:08,039 Speaker 1: Detective sy aside of life the average person is never 3 00:00:08,119 --> 00:00:11,080 Speaker 1: exposed to. I spent thirty four years as a cop. 4 00:00:11,560 --> 00:00:14,040 Speaker 1: For twenty five of those years I was catching killers. 5 00:00:14,440 --> 00:00:16,200 Speaker 1: That's what I did for a living. I was a 6 00:00:16,200 --> 00:00:20,560 Speaker 1: homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead, 7 00:00:20,600 --> 00:00:23,120 Speaker 1: I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated. 8 00:00:23,840 --> 00:00:26,400 Speaker 1: The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories 9 00:00:26,440 --> 00:00:28,760 Speaker 1: from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw 10 00:00:28,800 --> 00:00:31,440 Speaker 1: and honest, just like the people I talk to. Some 11 00:00:31,600 --> 00:00:34,640 Speaker 1: of the content and language might be confronting. That's because 12 00:00:34,640 --> 00:00:37,640 Speaker 1: no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged. 13 00:00:38,159 --> 00:00:40,400 Speaker 1: Join me now as I take you into this world. 14 00:00:47,000 --> 00:00:50,400 Speaker 1: Welcome to another episode that I Catch Killers. Today, we're 15 00:00:50,400 --> 00:00:54,120 Speaker 1: going to explore a pivotal moment in Australian history, a 16 00:00:54,200 --> 00:00:57,440 Speaker 1: series of events that tested the capabilities of New South 17 00:00:57,440 --> 00:01:01,760 Speaker 1: Wales police to restore law and order backdrop of community 18 00:01:01,800 --> 00:01:07,000 Speaker 1: grievances and racial tensions. On Sunday, the eleventh of December 19 00:01:07,040 --> 00:01:10,319 Speaker 1: two thousand and five, a seemingly ordinary day in the 20 00:01:10,360 --> 00:01:14,800 Speaker 1: Sydney Beachside suburb of Cronulla spiraled into violence and chaos. 21 00:01:15,640 --> 00:01:18,960 Speaker 1: What began as a local confrontation escalated into a riot 22 00:01:19,120 --> 00:01:22,399 Speaker 1: and a series of violent attacks and damaged the property. 23 00:01:23,360 --> 00:01:26,360 Speaker 1: The events shocked Australia and made news across the world 24 00:01:26,720 --> 00:01:30,360 Speaker 1: and exposed deep seated issues of identity, race and belonging. 25 00:01:30,880 --> 00:01:32,920 Speaker 1: We're going to be talking today with two of the 26 00:01:32,959 --> 00:01:36,640 Speaker 1: men responsible for restoring law and order during the chaos. 27 00:01:37,280 --> 00:01:40,440 Speaker 1: We have with us in the studio, former Assistant Commissioner 28 00:01:40,440 --> 00:01:44,399 Speaker 1: Mark Goodwin and former New South Wales Police Minister Carl Scully. 29 00:01:45,160 --> 00:01:47,160 Speaker 1: They're going to give us a behind the scenes look 30 00:01:47,440 --> 00:01:50,120 Speaker 1: at what caused the riot and the follow up revenge, 31 00:01:50,360 --> 00:01:53,040 Speaker 1: how the police managed to quell the violence, and what 32 00:01:53,080 --> 00:01:57,040 Speaker 1: were the after effects. Firstly, let me welcome former New 33 00:01:57,080 --> 00:01:59,600 Speaker 1: South Wales Police Assistant Commissioner Mark Goodwin. 34 00:02:00,680 --> 00:02:02,400 Speaker 2: Gary, thanks for having us on mat All. 35 00:02:02,240 --> 00:02:04,280 Speaker 1: Thanks for coming on. And we've also got in the 36 00:02:04,320 --> 00:02:08,480 Speaker 1: studio with us former New South Wales Police Minister Carl Scully. 37 00:02:08,639 --> 00:02:12,040 Speaker 1: Thanks for the invite, well, thanks for coming on. Crenulla 38 00:02:12,160 --> 00:02:16,160 Speaker 1: riots it's something that touched in the psyche of our society, 39 00:02:16,240 --> 00:02:19,080 Speaker 1: isn't it really? It was such a pivotal moment the 40 00:02:19,160 --> 00:02:21,160 Speaker 1: you two were right at the heart and center of it, 41 00:02:21,280 --> 00:02:25,600 Speaker 1: overseeing what was happening at the time. What's what's your 42 00:02:25,639 --> 00:02:27,560 Speaker 1: memories of the day. 43 00:02:28,960 --> 00:02:34,600 Speaker 3: Yeah, Look, it was a Balmi Sunday, typical hot summer's 44 00:02:34,639 --> 00:02:35,440 Speaker 3: day in Sydney. 45 00:02:35,480 --> 00:02:38,000 Speaker 2: And in the morning it started. 46 00:02:37,680 --> 00:02:40,080 Speaker 3: Out with more of a lock of Australia day really 47 00:02:40,120 --> 00:02:44,080 Speaker 3: of a celebration on the beach. And look, they were 48 00:02:44,080 --> 00:02:46,200 Speaker 3: all there to make a point, make a statement. Really 49 00:02:46,200 --> 00:02:49,520 Speaker 3: it was it was, it was. There had been hundreds 50 00:02:49,520 --> 00:02:53,359 Speaker 3: and thousands of text messages to reclaim the beach from 51 00:02:53,680 --> 00:02:55,519 Speaker 3: the issues that had been going on down there, which 52 00:02:55,520 --> 00:02:59,520 Speaker 3: will discuss a bit later, but then you know, and 53 00:02:59,639 --> 00:03:04,280 Speaker 3: there was flag waving and barbecues and about five thousand 54 00:03:04,320 --> 00:03:07,160 Speaker 3: people turned up on the beach down there that day, 55 00:03:07,760 --> 00:03:12,720 Speaker 3: and they were a mixture of some locals, a lot 56 00:03:12,720 --> 00:03:15,560 Speaker 3: of people that weren't from the area that had turned 57 00:03:15,600 --> 00:03:18,720 Speaker 3: up because of the intense media which will ned out canvas, 58 00:03:19,360 --> 00:03:21,880 Speaker 3: and also the thousands of tech hundreds of thousands of 59 00:03:21,880 --> 00:03:26,160 Speaker 3: text messages. But look, as the day wore on, there 60 00:03:26,240 --> 00:03:30,680 Speaker 3: was white supremacists turned up in the crowd in big 61 00:03:31,840 --> 00:03:35,200 Speaker 3: utilities with jacked up suspension and eurek are stocking flags 62 00:03:35,240 --> 00:03:37,880 Speaker 3: in the back, and they wanted to make a point. 63 00:03:37,920 --> 00:03:41,120 Speaker 3: They were hardcore and they were not local. In fact, 64 00:03:41,120 --> 00:03:44,320 Speaker 3: you'll see on the front of our book that we 65 00:03:44,480 --> 00:03:47,440 Speaker 3: chose this particular photo on the front of the book. 66 00:03:47,600 --> 00:03:50,760 Speaker 3: It is literally what ninety nine percent of the day 67 00:03:50,800 --> 00:03:53,240 Speaker 3: looked like. There was lots and lots of police. We 68 00:03:53,280 --> 00:03:57,360 Speaker 3: had prepared for a very likelihood of a very large 69 00:03:57,360 --> 00:04:00,560 Speaker 3: public order incident, as all the rights squad were there 70 00:04:01,360 --> 00:04:04,160 Speaker 3: and helicopters and boats in the water, and you know 71 00:04:04,200 --> 00:04:06,240 Speaker 3: the police off here are dog squads and prison vans 72 00:04:06,240 --> 00:04:08,120 Speaker 3: and so forth, so we were ready to go. But 73 00:04:08,480 --> 00:04:11,600 Speaker 3: ninety of the day literally was the police watching the rubberneckers, 74 00:04:11,960 --> 00:04:14,360 Speaker 3: and they rubberneckers watching this brookers in the crowd. And 75 00:04:14,400 --> 00:04:17,080 Speaker 3: you'll see on that front cover, actually there's a guy 76 00:04:17,160 --> 00:04:22,080 Speaker 3: there with his arms in the air. He's wearing The 77 00:04:22,160 --> 00:04:24,520 Speaker 3: digital photo of this clear show shows it clearly, but 78 00:04:24,600 --> 00:04:28,680 Speaker 3: he's wearing stars and stripes, red, white and blue bandana 79 00:04:28,720 --> 00:04:31,440 Speaker 3: on his head and he's playing around. You can see 80 00:04:31,440 --> 00:04:34,840 Speaker 3: the cameras around him with a fur big furry microphones 81 00:04:34,880 --> 00:04:35,320 Speaker 3: and whatnot. 82 00:04:35,360 --> 00:04:36,560 Speaker 2: So he's a white. 83 00:04:36,400 --> 00:04:39,320 Speaker 3: Supremacist spooker that had turned up in the crowd and 84 00:04:39,400 --> 00:04:42,200 Speaker 3: they started the trouble down there. They started chance and 85 00:04:44,680 --> 00:04:46,480 Speaker 3: then the old kicked in and it went from there. 86 00:04:46,520 --> 00:04:50,200 Speaker 1: We'll delve into it in detail just to get the 87 00:04:50,240 --> 00:04:54,039 Speaker 1: sense of it. And I call it, I'm precedented in 88 00:04:54,400 --> 00:04:58,320 Speaker 1: our modern modern times, the right of that nature, gathering 89 00:04:58,360 --> 00:05:01,440 Speaker 1: that nature. Carl, were the police minister at the time 90 00:05:01,560 --> 00:05:05,040 Speaker 1: when things were starting to escalate, and what was your 91 00:05:05,400 --> 00:05:09,200 Speaker 1: take on what happened? And I should correct myself because 92 00:05:09,200 --> 00:05:11,200 Speaker 1: it's not just the day. There was a lead up 93 00:05:11,240 --> 00:05:13,400 Speaker 1: to it and there was the aftermath of it with 94 00:05:13,440 --> 00:05:16,320 Speaker 1: the revenge attacks. But from a police minister's point of view, 95 00:05:16,320 --> 00:05:18,000 Speaker 1: you're watching things unfault a. 96 00:05:18,080 --> 00:05:20,760 Speaker 4: Couple of things. I was Police Minister for about a 97 00:05:20,839 --> 00:05:23,320 Speaker 4: month when the mcquarie Fields riots happened. 98 00:05:23,400 --> 00:05:25,120 Speaker 1: Okay, so experience. 99 00:05:25,920 --> 00:05:28,800 Speaker 4: I had some concerns and about how we handled it. 100 00:05:28,920 --> 00:05:33,160 Speaker 4: There was a really good internal inquiry process run by 101 00:05:33,200 --> 00:05:38,080 Speaker 4: Deputy Commission Dave Madden, one of Australia's leading law and 102 00:05:38,200 --> 00:05:41,840 Speaker 4: order experts on right response. Ron Mason was an important 103 00:05:41,839 --> 00:05:43,720 Speaker 4: part of that and as a result we set up 104 00:05:43,720 --> 00:05:47,640 Speaker 4: the Public Order and Riot Squad, which wasn't quite fully 105 00:05:47,720 --> 00:05:49,600 Speaker 4: formed by the time the Cronulla rights. 106 00:05:49,440 --> 00:05:52,240 Speaker 1: That was on the back of the Macquarie rights. Yes so. 107 00:05:52,800 --> 00:05:56,039 Speaker 4: And just a few months later we had the Lifeguard 108 00:05:56,200 --> 00:06:01,360 Speaker 4: biffo down at North Cronulla Beach, some lot of moral 109 00:06:01,440 --> 00:06:06,600 Speaker 4: panic being projected by talkback radio and tabloid newspapers. And 110 00:06:07,000 --> 00:06:09,159 Speaker 4: I was somewhat sad and gary when I went down 111 00:06:09,200 --> 00:06:11,440 Speaker 4: to Cronulla in the lead up to that eleventh of 112 00:06:11,480 --> 00:06:14,839 Speaker 4: December two thousand and five, seeing all these Australian flags 113 00:06:14,960 --> 00:06:18,400 Speaker 4: draped over people's front yards and it made me feel 114 00:06:18,560 --> 00:06:20,840 Speaker 4: not a huge number, but more than I'd really seen 115 00:06:20,920 --> 00:06:25,360 Speaker 4: before in my public life. And then learning about all 116 00:06:25,400 --> 00:06:28,960 Speaker 4: these text messages and clarion calls, I thought, Gee, there's 117 00:06:28,960 --> 00:06:33,279 Speaker 4: some trouble going on here, and I sought the reassurance 118 00:06:33,360 --> 00:06:36,880 Speaker 4: that we were prepared for it. And yes, I went 119 00:06:36,960 --> 00:06:40,599 Speaker 4: down to the beach area with the premiere Assistant Commissioner 120 00:06:40,640 --> 00:06:44,520 Speaker 4: Goodwin briefness and more importantly briefness on an escalation plan 121 00:06:44,800 --> 00:06:47,280 Speaker 4: in case it got out of control. So I certainly 122 00:06:47,360 --> 00:06:51,720 Speaker 4: felt trouble was brewing. It didn't look good, but I 123 00:06:51,839 --> 00:06:53,880 Speaker 4: certainly felt police were ready for it. 124 00:06:53,920 --> 00:06:57,839 Speaker 1: Okay, the pressure on both of you guys on that day, 125 00:06:57,960 --> 00:07:01,520 Speaker 1: with the build up mark you, the senior officer, was 126 00:07:01,680 --> 00:07:05,960 Speaker 1: responsible for managing all the what was going to occur 127 00:07:06,040 --> 00:07:09,159 Speaker 1: on that day from a police response. I want to 128 00:07:09,160 --> 00:07:11,600 Speaker 1: break it down and go into details the lead up 129 00:07:11,600 --> 00:07:13,720 Speaker 1: to it and everything that happened, But just purely on 130 00:07:13,760 --> 00:07:16,800 Speaker 1: a personal point of view. Yeah, you joined the cops, 131 00:07:16,840 --> 00:07:19,760 Speaker 1: you expect expect pressure, but that was pressure on a 132 00:07:19,840 --> 00:07:22,920 Speaker 1: large scale. How did it affect you personally just during 133 00:07:22,960 --> 00:07:26,160 Speaker 1: the days that you were managing the situation here? 134 00:07:26,200 --> 00:07:29,200 Speaker 3: Look, really the pressure was off the Richter scale, to 135 00:07:29,200 --> 00:07:31,440 Speaker 3: be quite honest with her, and not so much on 136 00:07:31,480 --> 00:07:33,560 Speaker 3: the day, but in the revenge attacks which will canvas later. 137 00:07:33,600 --> 00:07:37,200 Speaker 3: But look, you know, nothing can prepare for something the 138 00:07:37,240 --> 00:07:39,840 Speaker 3: size of what that turned out. But I certainly had 139 00:07:41,040 --> 00:07:44,160 Speaker 3: a very extensive background as a criminal investigator and had 140 00:07:44,200 --> 00:07:49,080 Speaker 3: run major homicide briefs like yourself, armedhold up squad, drug squad, 141 00:07:49,160 --> 00:07:52,480 Speaker 3: undercover unit, and I'd been involved in hostage negotiators for 142 00:07:52,520 --> 00:07:54,760 Speaker 3: over a decade and stuff. So I'd seen and been 143 00:07:54,800 --> 00:07:58,400 Speaker 3: at the point end of operational activity. And luckily I'd 144 00:07:58,440 --> 00:08:01,960 Speaker 3: spent five years also as our manager at Bankstown before 145 00:08:02,000 --> 00:08:04,680 Speaker 3: I rose up to the lofty heights, and that very 146 00:08:04,680 --> 00:08:08,640 Speaker 3: well prepared me for how the Middle Eastern community reacts 147 00:08:08,640 --> 00:08:09,960 Speaker 3: and how they're policed and so forth. 148 00:08:10,000 --> 00:08:10,640 Speaker 2: But the pressure. 149 00:08:11,160 --> 00:08:14,120 Speaker 3: I don't think anything could prepare any person for the 150 00:08:14,160 --> 00:08:16,480 Speaker 3: immense pressure that we were under. Because literally, and we'll 151 00:08:16,480 --> 00:08:19,040 Speaker 3: talk about this later, but the you know, the following 152 00:08:19,080 --> 00:08:22,520 Speaker 3: weekend even it was the largest public order police operation 153 00:08:22,600 --> 00:08:24,640 Speaker 3: it's ever been run in Australia still to this date. 154 00:08:24,720 --> 00:08:27,000 Speaker 3: So you know, we had to literally put the entire 155 00:08:27,040 --> 00:08:30,960 Speaker 3: police service into a mode which was thankfully the new 156 00:08:31,040 --> 00:08:33,800 Speaker 3: South Pols Police had run the Olympics four years before, 157 00:08:33,800 --> 00:08:36,640 Speaker 3: in the year two thousand or five years before, sorry, 158 00:08:36,880 --> 00:08:40,880 Speaker 3: And then you know that required the freeing up of 159 00:08:40,920 --> 00:08:45,079 Speaker 3: an immense amount of resources from country regional areas and 160 00:08:45,120 --> 00:08:47,200 Speaker 3: the logistics of having none of those people brought into 161 00:08:47,200 --> 00:08:48,720 Speaker 3: Sydney and housing them and stuff. 162 00:08:48,760 --> 00:08:50,120 Speaker 2: So I had to deal with all that. 163 00:08:50,160 --> 00:08:53,120 Speaker 3: I had to deal with the legislative reform that we 164 00:08:53,240 --> 00:08:56,240 Speaker 3: urgently needed, the actual operational activity, and it was just 165 00:08:56,280 --> 00:08:57,240 Speaker 3: an immense operation. 166 00:08:57,559 --> 00:08:58,560 Speaker 2: So there's a lot a lot. 167 00:08:58,440 --> 00:09:00,320 Speaker 1: Of yeah, a lot of the move a lot of 168 00:09:00,360 --> 00:09:02,760 Speaker 1: moving parts, and a lot of pressure and a lot 169 00:09:02,800 --> 00:09:06,640 Speaker 1: of things that could go wrong. I must admit reading 170 00:09:06,720 --> 00:09:09,959 Speaker 1: the book, even though I recall it, I recall it 171 00:09:10,200 --> 00:09:13,000 Speaker 1: very clearly. I was a crime manager and all our 172 00:09:13,040 --> 00:09:15,840 Speaker 1: troops have been taken away and we're trying to manage 173 00:09:15,880 --> 00:09:18,040 Speaker 1: the LAC that I was in at the time, but 174 00:09:18,120 --> 00:09:20,360 Speaker 1: it was virtually everyone had the roll. This leaves up 175 00:09:20,559 --> 00:09:24,440 Speaker 1: and get involved, Carl. From a police minister's point of view, 176 00:09:24,800 --> 00:09:27,840 Speaker 1: I would imagine I don't fully understand the world of politics, 177 00:09:27,880 --> 00:09:29,560 Speaker 1: but I I would imagine there'd be a lot of 178 00:09:29,559 --> 00:09:32,640 Speaker 1: phone calls going backwards and forwards, and pressure would have 179 00:09:32,679 --> 00:09:34,160 Speaker 1: been on you in that role as well. 180 00:09:34,240 --> 00:09:37,559 Speaker 4: It's a funny role police minister. Yes it's political. You're 181 00:09:37,559 --> 00:09:40,240 Speaker 4: part of the cabinet room, but in a sense you 182 00:09:40,400 --> 00:09:44,520 Speaker 4: sort of stand outside that process law enforcement, and for 183 00:09:44,640 --> 00:09:48,760 Speaker 4: most of my time I was there. Commissioner and minister 184 00:09:49,160 --> 00:09:52,960 Speaker 4: have to work hand in glove, and in some ways 185 00:09:53,120 --> 00:09:56,679 Speaker 4: we overlap each other's roles to make it work. In 186 00:09:56,720 --> 00:10:00,400 Speaker 4: some senses, I was co commissioner. Of course, the missioner 187 00:10:00,520 --> 00:10:04,439 Speaker 4: can't work without full political support. A minister can't work 188 00:10:04,520 --> 00:10:08,880 Speaker 4: without full commissioner support. My concern was to make sure 189 00:10:09,240 --> 00:10:13,400 Speaker 4: the powers, the personnel and the resources were made available. 190 00:10:13,400 --> 00:10:16,040 Speaker 4: That's what I could do and did do, and you 191 00:10:16,120 --> 00:10:20,040 Speaker 4: might see in the book I didn't dwell too much 192 00:10:20,120 --> 00:10:23,880 Speaker 4: on this, but the Macquarie Fields experience left me feeling 193 00:10:24,200 --> 00:10:29,400 Speaker 4: the senior command weren't quite responsive enough that they could 194 00:10:29,440 --> 00:10:31,320 Speaker 4: have been, so I was wary of it when this 195 00:10:31,360 --> 00:10:34,840 Speaker 4: happened again, and I did say to Commissioner Maroni, the 196 00:10:34,880 --> 00:10:37,720 Speaker 4: police force were not up to it. I'd be asking 197 00:10:37,800 --> 00:10:41,960 Speaker 4: the Premier to seek soldiers, bring the military in. And 198 00:10:42,040 --> 00:10:46,160 Speaker 4: he very quickly jumped to attention and made the entire 199 00:10:46,200 --> 00:10:50,240 Speaker 4: police force available to Assistant Commissioner Goodwin. And that was 200 00:10:50,320 --> 00:10:53,520 Speaker 4: a turning point at that point, and sadly I had 201 00:10:53,520 --> 00:10:55,880 Speaker 4: to threaten it was a serious threat, but he showed 202 00:10:55,920 --> 00:10:58,200 Speaker 4: me the police were up to it, they can work. 203 00:10:58,360 --> 00:11:01,120 Speaker 1: Well. That makes sense because that is a huge call 204 00:11:01,200 --> 00:11:05,000 Speaker 1: to involve the military in a law and order issue, 205 00:11:05,000 --> 00:11:09,560 Speaker 1: and again almost unprecedented. So I could imagine when that's 206 00:11:10,080 --> 00:11:13,400 Speaker 1: you made those murmurings that this might be the way 207 00:11:13,440 --> 00:11:15,240 Speaker 1: we had to go. I could imagine the pressure that 208 00:11:15,480 --> 00:11:16,360 Speaker 1: come a big call. 209 00:11:16,640 --> 00:11:17,640 Speaker 5: Was I prepared to do it? 210 00:11:17,760 --> 00:11:20,400 Speaker 4: Yes, I believe Prime Minister Howard would have made a 211 00:11:20,480 --> 00:11:25,160 Speaker 4: quick amendment to the military legislation to allow soldiers to 212 00:11:25,200 --> 00:11:29,360 Speaker 4: be used to quell dissent in a democracy. It's not 213 00:11:29,480 --> 00:11:31,680 Speaker 4: a nice call, but I got to the point where 214 00:11:31,720 --> 00:11:34,080 Speaker 4: I thought I may need to make it because I 215 00:11:34,160 --> 00:11:39,280 Speaker 4: could see a macquarie Field's response slow, tardy, taking days 216 00:11:39,320 --> 00:11:42,080 Speaker 4: to get to the point. We needed a quick response. 217 00:11:42,120 --> 00:11:44,319 Speaker 4: And when he got that message, and I thank him 218 00:11:44,320 --> 00:11:48,840 Speaker 4: for it, he responded and Assistant Commissioner Goodman literally had 219 00:11:48,840 --> 00:11:51,720 Speaker 4: the entire New South Wales Police Force then at his 220 00:11:51,840 --> 00:11:54,719 Speaker 4: disposal and the job they did was magnificent. 221 00:11:54,920 --> 00:11:57,480 Speaker 1: Well, when we talk about and I got it pro 222 00:11:57,559 --> 00:12:00,440 Speaker 1: your book, but I understand, I understood the new answers 223 00:12:00,440 --> 00:12:02,720 Speaker 1: of what was going on, and it's something that could 224 00:12:02,760 --> 00:12:07,040 Speaker 1: have very seriously escalated and not just basing Cronulla. And 225 00:12:07,080 --> 00:12:09,920 Speaker 1: I know the revenge attacks were spread further, but it 226 00:12:10,000 --> 00:12:13,280 Speaker 1: could have spread right across all of Sydney and white 227 00:12:13,280 --> 00:12:13,760 Speaker 1: of Sydney. 228 00:12:13,800 --> 00:12:16,760 Speaker 4: So I guess I approach When people ask me why 229 00:12:16,760 --> 00:12:18,520 Speaker 4: did we write the book, there's a few reasons, and 230 00:12:18,600 --> 00:12:22,360 Speaker 4: both of us have got different reasons, but essentially I 231 00:12:22,480 --> 00:12:25,600 Speaker 4: want people to think of the questions what happened, what 232 00:12:25,760 --> 00:12:27,920 Speaker 4: could have happened, and why did it happen? 233 00:12:28,320 --> 00:12:29,040 Speaker 5: Now? What happened? 234 00:12:29,080 --> 00:12:31,280 Speaker 4: A lot of people have got their own memories of 235 00:12:31,280 --> 00:12:34,520 Speaker 4: what happened? What could have happened? Well, firstly what happened? 236 00:12:34,559 --> 00:12:36,640 Speaker 4: A lot of people have forgotten the detail and it 237 00:12:36,720 --> 00:12:40,880 Speaker 4: was pretty nasty, the revenge attacks because the videographic and 238 00:12:40,920 --> 00:12:44,080 Speaker 4: photographic evidence is solely one sided. As Mark and I 239 00:12:44,120 --> 00:12:46,560 Speaker 4: often say, if you google Cronulla Rides, you don't get 240 00:12:46,600 --> 00:12:49,280 Speaker 4: any of the revenge attacks. So we think it's important 241 00:12:49,320 --> 00:12:52,520 Speaker 4: what did happen needs to be recorded because the revenge 242 00:12:52,520 --> 00:12:55,559 Speaker 4: attacks were off the charts compared to what happened at 243 00:12:55,600 --> 00:12:56,559 Speaker 4: North Cronulla Beach. 244 00:12:56,640 --> 00:12:57,640 Speaker 5: What could have happened? 245 00:12:58,160 --> 00:13:01,480 Speaker 4: The intelligence coming to Mark and through Mark to me 246 00:13:01,920 --> 00:13:05,520 Speaker 4: was frightening. Then of course why did it happen? Is 247 00:13:05,559 --> 00:13:07,880 Speaker 4: a sociological analysis that we go through. 248 00:13:08,000 --> 00:13:10,640 Speaker 1: Yeah, and we'll try and try and break that down 249 00:13:10,679 --> 00:13:11,840 Speaker 1: as complex that that it is. 250 00:13:12,000 --> 00:13:15,319 Speaker 4: For three important questions as to how we approach the. 251 00:13:15,240 --> 00:13:19,200 Speaker 1: Book, and Mark in writing the book, was important to 252 00:13:19,240 --> 00:13:21,680 Speaker 1: you to have the full story out there as well. 253 00:13:21,920 --> 00:13:25,120 Speaker 3: Yeah, look Arry, over the years there's been a lot 254 00:13:25,120 --> 00:13:27,520 Speaker 3: of stuff written about it. And look even now, every 255 00:13:27,520 --> 00:13:30,880 Speaker 3: time the word racism is mentioned in Australia, the Cronella 256 00:13:30,960 --> 00:13:32,439 Speaker 3: rights come to the fore and they wheel out the 257 00:13:32,440 --> 00:13:35,360 Speaker 3: old footage of only the Caucasian issues on the beach 258 00:13:35,440 --> 00:13:38,160 Speaker 3: during the day, and we thought it was important that 259 00:13:38,200 --> 00:13:42,199 Speaker 3: the because there is such a skewed reporting and all 260 00:13:42,200 --> 00:13:46,480 Speaker 3: the academic work that's been done since because what happened 261 00:13:46,559 --> 00:13:49,920 Speaker 3: during the day, every media area in Sydney turned up. 262 00:13:50,000 --> 00:13:52,200 Speaker 3: There'd been such a beat up and build up to it. 263 00:13:52,640 --> 00:13:56,120 Speaker 3: Every journalist in Australia I think, was there on the day. So, 264 00:13:56,960 --> 00:13:59,520 Speaker 3: I mean, as I've already mentioned, which is the front 265 00:13:59,520 --> 00:14:01,760 Speaker 3: of our book, most of the day was the cops 266 00:14:01,760 --> 00:14:04,600 Speaker 3: watching the rubberneckers, rubbineck watching the spreakers in the crowd, 267 00:14:04,640 --> 00:14:06,640 Speaker 3: and then there it's got out of hand. So I 268 00:14:06,720 --> 00:14:11,000 Speaker 3: counted only recently nine incidents that occurred that were of 269 00:14:11,200 --> 00:14:13,320 Speaker 3: any significance or violence. 270 00:14:14,120 --> 00:14:15,040 Speaker 2: Now, when you spread that. 271 00:14:15,080 --> 00:14:18,720 Speaker 3: Out out over the entire day of over eight hours, 272 00:14:19,680 --> 00:14:24,320 Speaker 3: it's a very very fake news to string that together 273 00:14:24,400 --> 00:14:26,720 Speaker 3: in such short succession, like was done for the media 274 00:14:26,760 --> 00:14:32,240 Speaker 3: that night with excited newsreader voiceovers to make it look 275 00:14:32,320 --> 00:14:36,480 Speaker 3: like that five thousand strong crowd they're all participated in 276 00:14:36,520 --> 00:14:40,440 Speaker 3: a Caucasian racist bender all day long, and it's just 277 00:14:40,600 --> 00:14:41,800 Speaker 3: it's actually like fake news. 278 00:14:41,880 --> 00:14:42,160 Speaker 2: Gary. 279 00:14:42,440 --> 00:14:44,400 Speaker 3: So you know, in writing this book, we sort of 280 00:14:44,400 --> 00:14:46,520 Speaker 3: wanted to correct the record on that, and it's just 281 00:14:46,600 --> 00:14:49,200 Speaker 3: a factual account. Some people aren't going to like that, 282 00:14:49,320 --> 00:14:51,200 Speaker 3: but it is a factual account from eight as out 283 00:14:51,200 --> 00:14:52,280 Speaker 3: of exactly what did occur. 284 00:14:53,080 --> 00:14:55,360 Speaker 1: Would it be fair to say, and you're quite right, 285 00:14:55,440 --> 00:14:59,200 Speaker 1: both of you insaying you talk racism and quite often 286 00:14:59,680 --> 00:15:02,840 Speaker 1: referred to Cronulla, the race rights and all that. I've 287 00:15:02,840 --> 00:15:05,680 Speaker 1: been guilty of it. I have conversations with people and yeah, 288 00:15:05,920 --> 00:15:12,160 Speaker 1: the Cronulla race rights. But the tension and the type 289 00:15:12,160 --> 00:15:15,320 Speaker 1: of thing that occurred at Cronulla could very well have 290 00:15:15,400 --> 00:15:19,320 Speaker 1: occurred in another location if the circumstances were different, like 291 00:15:19,400 --> 00:15:22,920 Speaker 1: the fact that occurred at Crenulla. There was incidents that 292 00:15:22,960 --> 00:15:24,760 Speaker 1: built up and then the text messages and I want 293 00:15:24,800 --> 00:15:27,040 Speaker 1: to go through some of the text messages that you 294 00:15:27,160 --> 00:15:29,640 Speaker 1: got in your book, and they're very inflammatory, but it 295 00:15:29,680 --> 00:15:33,040 Speaker 1: was virtually a build up to what occurred on that day. 296 00:15:33,040 --> 00:15:34,480 Speaker 1: Would that be fair to say? 297 00:15:34,680 --> 00:15:35,560 Speaker 5: Over years? 298 00:15:35,760 --> 00:15:40,080 Speaker 4: But Mark's probably better placed as a copper, But certainly 299 00:15:40,480 --> 00:15:43,600 Speaker 4: all the accounts that come to us were it was 300 00:15:43,640 --> 00:15:47,120 Speaker 4: building up over years and years of simmering tension with 301 00:15:47,280 --> 00:15:51,160 Speaker 4: these young Lebanese Muslim use coming to the beach by 302 00:15:51,240 --> 00:15:53,600 Speaker 4: train or by car, bear in mind it's the only 303 00:15:53,640 --> 00:15:56,920 Speaker 4: beach in Sydney that you can come to by train. 304 00:15:57,600 --> 00:16:02,600 Speaker 4: Misogynistic language, uncivil behavior, kicking sand in the faces of 305 00:16:02,720 --> 00:16:04,720 Speaker 4: kids on the beach, what we call the towel versus 306 00:16:04,800 --> 00:16:08,080 Speaker 4: the soccer ball. But a lot of it was inappropriate, 307 00:16:08,160 --> 00:16:12,280 Speaker 4: offensive behavior, slightly below what you would call the police 308 00:16:12,800 --> 00:16:15,600 Speaker 4: to come to the attention and some of the lifeguards, 309 00:16:15,640 --> 00:16:17,920 Speaker 4: so they dealt with it, asked people to behave and 310 00:16:17,960 --> 00:16:22,160 Speaker 4: they did. Sometimes police were called. But this simmered along 311 00:16:22,240 --> 00:16:25,520 Speaker 4: and along along until those incidents towards the end of 312 00:16:25,560 --> 00:16:27,720 Speaker 4: two thousand and five and people said, look, we've had 313 00:16:27,840 --> 00:16:29,840 Speaker 4: enough of this, We're going to respond. 314 00:16:30,200 --> 00:16:34,240 Speaker 1: Okay, I've watched not just read the book, but watched 315 00:16:34,280 --> 00:16:37,000 Speaker 1: a lot of a lot of what the reporting was 316 00:16:37,040 --> 00:16:39,760 Speaker 1: and the follow up report and all that. Then I've 317 00:16:39,800 --> 00:16:42,960 Speaker 1: got to say my observation of it is there's good 318 00:16:42,960 --> 00:16:46,920 Speaker 1: and bad in both communities. To say one community does this, 319 00:16:47,120 --> 00:16:50,160 Speaker 1: like I saw people from Lebanese or Middle East and 320 00:16:50,200 --> 00:16:54,120 Speaker 1: background that were mortified what was going on. And I 321 00:16:54,120 --> 00:16:57,960 Speaker 1: saw the white Caucasians Anglo Saxons, if we want to 322 00:16:58,000 --> 00:17:02,280 Speaker 1: call that. More THEI fied an escalation of a core 323 00:17:02,320 --> 00:17:04,600 Speaker 1: group of people that created this situation. 324 00:17:05,200 --> 00:17:06,240 Speaker 5: Let's look at the numbers. 325 00:17:06,320 --> 00:17:11,040 Speaker 4: Two to three hundred Caucasian inebriated youth behaved in really 326 00:17:11,200 --> 00:17:17,320 Speaker 4: offensive manner. Two to three hundred Lebanese or Arabic Muslims 327 00:17:17,359 --> 00:17:22,480 Speaker 4: behaved in grossly violent manner. So that's less, well less 328 00:17:22,480 --> 00:17:26,600 Speaker 4: than a thousand people. Does that invite academic social commentators 329 00:17:26,680 --> 00:17:32,359 Speaker 4: media to scrub the slogan across Lakember and Cronulla of 330 00:17:32,480 --> 00:17:33,440 Speaker 4: racist communities? 331 00:17:33,520 --> 00:17:34,040 Speaker 5: Of course not. 332 00:17:34,119 --> 00:17:38,080 Speaker 4: It is ridiculous, But that has what's happened. Because if 333 00:17:38,119 --> 00:17:42,040 Speaker 4: you say you're studying racism in Australia, Marks right, you 334 00:17:42,160 --> 00:17:46,760 Speaker 4: google Cronulla and it's the bastion of racism in Australia. 335 00:17:46,800 --> 00:17:47,199 Speaker 1: It's not. 336 00:17:48,200 --> 00:17:50,280 Speaker 4: You think two to three hundred people out of a 337 00:17:50,320 --> 00:17:53,359 Speaker 4: crowd of five thousand in a community across Sutherland of 338 00:17:53,359 --> 00:17:56,880 Speaker 4: two to three hundred thousand, it becomes absurd, just as 339 00:17:56,960 --> 00:18:03,560 Speaker 4: to say Muslim Southwestern Sydney is violently anti Caucasian. For 340 00:18:03,600 --> 00:18:06,720 Speaker 4: a start, there's more Catholics and Anglicans in southwestern Syney 341 00:18:06,760 --> 00:18:07,440 Speaker 4: than there are Mos. 342 00:18:07,640 --> 00:18:10,000 Speaker 1: And I see in your book, and it's very detailed, 343 00:18:10,280 --> 00:18:13,320 Speaker 1: you break down the not just the religion, but the 344 00:18:13,400 --> 00:18:16,399 Speaker 1: races in different areas, and the ethnic background and the 345 00:18:16,440 --> 00:18:18,760 Speaker 1: crime and all that. So it's dissected. 346 00:18:18,840 --> 00:18:21,359 Speaker 4: The challenge, sorry, Garry, is why did it go away? 347 00:18:22,200 --> 00:18:25,960 Speaker 4: And it went away because we are not deeply racist. 348 00:18:26,080 --> 00:18:29,840 Speaker 4: We don't hate each other in this carlais wonderful society. 349 00:18:29,920 --> 00:18:33,200 Speaker 1: I think that's why it got so much attention, because 350 00:18:33,240 --> 00:18:36,080 Speaker 1: I really think it shocked us all like it shocked 351 00:18:36,119 --> 00:18:38,159 Speaker 1: us all that, oh that this is not the country 352 00:18:38,200 --> 00:18:41,280 Speaker 1: we believe where we live in. And it blew up, 353 00:18:41,359 --> 00:18:44,800 Speaker 1: blew up that way. Let's break down how it blew up. 354 00:18:44,800 --> 00:18:48,240 Speaker 1: And a lot of it's been attributed to the I'd 355 00:18:48,280 --> 00:18:50,920 Speaker 1: call it the catalyst that appeared to be with all 356 00:18:50,920 --> 00:18:53,639 Speaker 1: that simmering tension that was built up over the years. 357 00:18:54,119 --> 00:18:57,480 Speaker 1: There was two life savers that were assaulted. Was that 358 00:18:58,200 --> 00:19:00,920 Speaker 1: the week before? Is that what prompted the text messages 359 00:19:00,960 --> 00:19:02,560 Speaker 1: and the doing them throwing? 360 00:19:02,800 --> 00:19:06,080 Speaker 3: Yeah, look it was in the lead up to Christmas. 361 00:19:06,520 --> 00:19:11,280 Speaker 3: The media get a bit bored and I've got a theory. 362 00:19:11,560 --> 00:19:13,280 Speaker 1: Come on, Carl, I work in the media, now, don't 363 00:19:13,680 --> 00:19:14,360 Speaker 1: I've got have been there. 364 00:19:14,400 --> 00:19:17,280 Speaker 3: Well, well, we know parliament's in recess and you're looking 365 00:19:17,320 --> 00:19:19,960 Speaker 3: for a story and nearly every year, I'll challenge you 366 00:19:20,040 --> 00:19:21,920 Speaker 3: to go and find it. But nearly every year is 367 00:19:21,960 --> 00:19:25,600 Speaker 3: the Grinch that stole Christmas? So I mean looking for 368 00:19:25,640 --> 00:19:27,520 Speaker 3: a sort. We remember the claver More wouldn't put up 369 00:19:27,520 --> 00:19:29,560 Speaker 3: the Christmas decorations, so she was the Grinch. 370 00:19:29,640 --> 00:19:30,240 Speaker 5: That shocking. 371 00:19:32,040 --> 00:19:33,240 Speaker 1: Come on, we can't let polity. 372 00:19:34,760 --> 00:19:37,520 Speaker 3: All the moll centers hadn't had working with children checks, 373 00:19:37,520 --> 00:19:39,359 Speaker 3: so your children are not safe. The Grench has stolen 374 00:19:39,400 --> 00:19:42,240 Speaker 3: for Christmas. Again, the massive media every year trying to 375 00:19:42,320 --> 00:19:44,480 Speaker 3: they're board, they're trying to steal Christmas the great Who's 376 00:19:44,480 --> 00:19:47,680 Speaker 3: the Grinch? So on this occasion of the crowd of yes, look, 377 00:19:47,720 --> 00:19:49,440 Speaker 3: there was an a vicious assault on a lifeguard. 378 00:19:49,480 --> 00:19:51,240 Speaker 2: But let's face it, it was a local assault. 379 00:19:51,400 --> 00:19:53,680 Speaker 3: It should have been a local police matter, maybe got 380 00:19:53,680 --> 00:19:57,080 Speaker 3: some local press and whatnot. But this was picked up 381 00:19:57,080 --> 00:20:00,119 Speaker 3: by the media and then escalated beyond all proportion, that 382 00:20:00,119 --> 00:20:02,680 Speaker 3: it was an assault on the sons of ANZACs and 383 00:20:02,720 --> 00:20:08,400 Speaker 3: that the Lebanese Muslims who were responsible almost for the 384 00:20:08,520 --> 00:20:11,600 Speaker 3: nine eleven attacks, had come to Australia and assaulted our 385 00:20:11,800 --> 00:20:14,120 Speaker 3: lifeguards who work on the beach and volunteer their time 386 00:20:14,160 --> 00:20:17,240 Speaker 3: all someone to save your life. That was just completely 387 00:20:17,280 --> 00:20:20,840 Speaker 3: blown out of proportion by the media. And then you know, 388 00:20:20,920 --> 00:20:24,520 Speaker 3: white supremocis supremacists stepped in, thought you beauty, rubbed their 389 00:20:24,520 --> 00:20:28,120 Speaker 3: hands together and started coming to Cronulla handing out pamphlets 390 00:20:28,600 --> 00:20:30,959 Speaker 3: trying to recruit people to these patriot groups. 391 00:20:32,400 --> 00:20:36,240 Speaker 2: Then shock jocks got involved, talked it. 392 00:20:36,240 --> 00:20:39,000 Speaker 3: Up, and listeners dialing in and more and more, and 393 00:20:39,040 --> 00:20:40,560 Speaker 3: it just fed off each other, and there was more 394 00:20:40,560 --> 00:20:43,840 Speaker 3: and more media to a point where there was literally, 395 00:20:43,920 --> 00:20:46,360 Speaker 3: as I said, there's hundreds of thousands of text messages. 396 00:20:46,359 --> 00:20:49,399 Speaker 3: And interestingly, in two thousand and five, social media didn't exist. 397 00:20:49,400 --> 00:20:51,680 Speaker 3: Facebook was only less than a year old, and I 398 00:20:51,680 --> 00:20:54,320 Speaker 3: think worldwide only had you know, less than a million 399 00:20:54,400 --> 00:20:57,080 Speaker 3: yearss I think five six hundred, wasn't it thousand or something. Well, 400 00:20:57,840 --> 00:21:00,840 Speaker 3: social media was just not a thing at that time. 401 00:21:02,520 --> 00:21:06,280 Speaker 3: There was a new technology called the BlackBerry and mobile 402 00:21:06,320 --> 00:21:09,120 Speaker 3: phones with the ability to mass text message or chain 403 00:21:09,160 --> 00:21:11,240 Speaker 3: text message to everyone in your contact list, and that's 404 00:21:11,240 --> 00:21:14,640 Speaker 3: what happened. So that became the modern clarion call and 405 00:21:14,920 --> 00:21:17,280 Speaker 3: pamphlets hearing if you like, for a protest on the beach. 406 00:21:17,320 --> 00:21:20,119 Speaker 3: So it was something we'd never experienced before and certainly 407 00:21:20,119 --> 00:21:21,399 Speaker 3: not part of the risk assessment P. 408 00:21:21,680 --> 00:21:24,440 Speaker 1: I would imagine like with the technology coming in, because 409 00:21:24,640 --> 00:21:28,199 Speaker 1: it made it broader. Before people couldn't communicate them the 410 00:21:28,200 --> 00:21:31,200 Speaker 1: mass way that they did with the text messages. But 411 00:21:31,320 --> 00:21:33,920 Speaker 1: I take on board what you're saying about the media. 412 00:21:34,000 --> 00:21:36,800 Speaker 1: If they grab that headline, they can fuel the fire 413 00:21:37,440 --> 00:21:40,760 Speaker 1: and fuel the anger, and then then the nuhers I'll 414 00:21:40,760 --> 00:21:42,400 Speaker 1: call them nothings that come out of the would work, 415 00:21:42,480 --> 00:21:44,480 Speaker 1: the extreamers that come out of the woodwork and think, 416 00:21:44,720 --> 00:21:45,399 Speaker 1: let's get on this. 417 00:21:45,800 --> 00:21:48,920 Speaker 3: That's why the people at Cronulla are very angry locally 418 00:21:48,960 --> 00:21:52,040 Speaker 3: that they've been stigmatized and blamed for all this because, 419 00:21:52,080 --> 00:21:56,720 Speaker 3: like you know, what was a local simmering situation, and look, 420 00:21:57,119 --> 00:21:59,679 Speaker 3: there's no doubt about it. There was a lot of 421 00:22:00,119 --> 00:22:02,080 Speaker 3: acted in the community existing there and I don't think 422 00:22:02,080 --> 00:22:03,760 Speaker 3: you're ever going to see something like this without it, 423 00:22:04,960 --> 00:22:07,159 Speaker 3: and most definitely the behavior that was occurring on the 424 00:22:07,200 --> 00:22:11,080 Speaker 3: beach down there. But you know, I've said that it's 425 00:22:11,119 --> 00:22:15,119 Speaker 3: not about racism, and it was never about racism. And interestingly, 426 00:22:15,320 --> 00:22:17,120 Speaker 3: the first quote in the book is by a Lebanese 427 00:22:17,160 --> 00:22:21,320 Speaker 3: barrister who says that it wasn't racially inspired or motivated, 428 00:22:21,359 --> 00:22:24,119 Speaker 3: but it was racially badged. We say that because like 429 00:22:24,200 --> 00:22:26,520 Speaker 3: back in the fifties and sixties and seventies, you had 430 00:22:26,640 --> 00:22:31,160 Speaker 3: groups like Rockers and Sharpies, then Westies and then Bankies 431 00:22:31,240 --> 00:22:33,520 Speaker 3: coming from the western suburbs to the beach at Cronulla. 432 00:22:33,560 --> 00:22:35,600 Speaker 3: As Carl said, it's the only beach with a train 433 00:22:35,640 --> 00:22:38,840 Speaker 3: line of a weekend. And you know, there was fights 434 00:22:38,880 --> 00:22:41,680 Speaker 3: on between surfers over the exact same issues. It was 435 00:22:41,720 --> 00:22:44,760 Speaker 3: about behavior and about misogynistic comments to young girls, and 436 00:22:44,800 --> 00:22:48,120 Speaker 3: it was about just they dressed differently, they act differently, 437 00:22:48,160 --> 00:22:52,920 Speaker 3: and it's about chest beating and male pruning and dominance 438 00:22:52,960 --> 00:22:55,159 Speaker 3: of the spatial domain down there and those sorts of 439 00:22:55,160 --> 00:22:58,520 Speaker 3: fights that occurred. But back then it was all Coolcasians 440 00:22:58,520 --> 00:23:01,480 Speaker 3: fighting each other. So fast forward to the early two 441 00:23:01,560 --> 00:23:05,520 Speaker 3: thousands when the young Lebanese Muslim youth turned up there, 442 00:23:05,560 --> 00:23:08,480 Speaker 3: and we're doing exactly the same thing. So when it 443 00:23:08,560 --> 00:23:11,359 Speaker 3: used to be like f Off's West Is, fof bank Is, 444 00:23:11,480 --> 00:23:14,200 Speaker 3: fof Sharpies and say forth, when it became f Off 445 00:23:14,280 --> 00:23:16,680 Speaker 3: labs a racist, you're all racists. 446 00:23:16,720 --> 00:23:20,080 Speaker 1: Okay, So you're saying that the issue was about the 447 00:23:21,000 --> 00:23:24,359 Speaker 1: let's call it tribalism. It might not be the right word. 448 00:23:24,400 --> 00:23:29,000 Speaker 1: But the locals with people coming into the beach, and 449 00:23:29,440 --> 00:23:31,840 Speaker 1: I know, like I lived Inland and I served and 450 00:23:31,880 --> 00:23:33,960 Speaker 1: I copt that sort of the ship when you're going 451 00:23:34,000 --> 00:23:36,679 Speaker 1: to the beach on the Northern Beaches, So I know 452 00:23:36,800 --> 00:23:40,800 Speaker 1: what you're saying about that, and then you're you're making 453 00:23:40,800 --> 00:23:44,120 Speaker 1: the point if I'm understanding it, that Yeah, this incident 454 00:23:44,160 --> 00:23:47,080 Speaker 1: occurred and it's been badged as racism, but it wasn't 455 00:23:47,119 --> 00:23:49,960 Speaker 1: as simple or as simple as apps. 456 00:23:49,920 --> 00:23:54,600 Speaker 4: Perhaps given an individual example. We have work health and 457 00:23:54,640 --> 00:23:58,240 Speaker 4: safety laws now that are very attuned to inappropriate conduct 458 00:23:58,280 --> 00:24:02,800 Speaker 4: at a workplace. So if you so something sexist or racist, 459 00:24:03,040 --> 00:24:10,640 Speaker 4: misogynist as an individual, you have rights and there are consequences. So, yes, 460 00:24:10,800 --> 00:24:15,200 Speaker 4: people said some misogynistic, sexist and racist things for which 461 00:24:15,359 --> 00:24:18,720 Speaker 4: there is an accounting from one side. We've tried to 462 00:24:18,800 --> 00:24:22,040 Speaker 4: make it as transparent and give accountability for what was 463 00:24:22,040 --> 00:24:24,480 Speaker 4: said and done on the other side. But when you 464 00:24:24,520 --> 00:24:30,840 Speaker 4: look at societal misogyny, tribal racism and sexism, there's got 465 00:24:30,840 --> 00:24:33,040 Speaker 4: to be more than we're going to make your beach 466 00:24:33,119 --> 00:24:35,879 Speaker 4: safe by stopping the misogynists or racists. 467 00:24:36,160 --> 00:24:36,920 Speaker 5: There needs to be. 468 00:24:36,960 --> 00:24:41,080 Speaker 4: Deeper explanation and so what, yes, we concede there were 469 00:24:41,200 --> 00:24:44,640 Speaker 4: racial things and sexist things, and misogynistics said and done 470 00:24:44,840 --> 00:24:50,639 Speaker 4: and quite violent reactions to the other. What motivated it? So, yes, 471 00:24:50,720 --> 00:24:53,520 Speaker 4: if you get threatened or you feel uncomfortable as an individuals, 472 00:24:53,600 --> 00:24:56,080 Speaker 4: sometimes you might blurt out in the workplace or in 473 00:24:56,080 --> 00:25:00,480 Speaker 4: a public place something that is labeled correctly as sexist 474 00:25:01,000 --> 00:25:04,639 Speaker 4: or politically deviant or morally unacceptable. But if a whole 475 00:25:04,840 --> 00:25:08,080 Speaker 4: large group do it, there's something else going on. You 476 00:25:08,119 --> 00:25:10,960 Speaker 4: can't just say that big chunk of three hundred people 477 00:25:10,960 --> 00:25:14,920 Speaker 4: are all racist. And so we delve deeper and we 478 00:25:14,960 --> 00:25:18,920 Speaker 4: came to the conclusion that when people feel threatened, they 479 00:25:19,000 --> 00:25:26,679 Speaker 4: react deviantly, morally, politically, racially or in sexual derogatory terms. 480 00:25:27,560 --> 00:25:30,720 Speaker 4: And what it invited Garin. This is the challenge for 481 00:25:30,800 --> 00:25:35,800 Speaker 4: many from our book. Far from celebrating our multicultural Australia, 482 00:25:35,920 --> 00:25:39,359 Speaker 4: we should be wary of it, respect it, understand it, 483 00:25:39,680 --> 00:25:44,600 Speaker 4: acknowledge it, but celebrate what we have in common. How 484 00:25:44,640 --> 00:25:47,840 Speaker 4: are we the same? For example, Jihad Dib, who's now 485 00:25:47,880 --> 00:25:50,040 Speaker 4: a minister in the Men's government, he said, I don't 486 00:25:50,040 --> 00:25:52,640 Speaker 4: have an Anzac story, but do you think I don't 487 00:25:52,680 --> 00:25:55,600 Speaker 4: love barbecues and going to the Beach. Do you think 488 00:25:55,640 --> 00:25:58,439 Speaker 4: I don't feel as Australian as everyone else just because 489 00:25:58,480 --> 00:26:01,600 Speaker 4: I'm not connected to the Anzac story doesn't make me 490 00:26:03,400 --> 00:26:05,720 Speaker 4: a not It doesn't make me not an Aussie. So 491 00:26:06,240 --> 00:26:09,639 Speaker 4: we concluded far far more was going on in the 492 00:26:09,760 --> 00:26:14,119 Speaker 4: minds that form the groups that cause the conflict between 493 00:26:14,160 --> 00:26:18,399 Speaker 4: each other, and far more likely it was about could 494 00:26:18,440 --> 00:26:21,240 Speaker 4: we do more? Should we have done more as a 495 00:26:21,280 --> 00:26:24,160 Speaker 4: society to have found what binds us. 496 00:26:24,280 --> 00:26:25,480 Speaker 1: And I think common ground? 497 00:26:25,840 --> 00:26:30,840 Speaker 4: I think the consequences of Cronulla were the two communities 498 00:26:31,440 --> 00:26:34,560 Speaker 4: found those bonds, for example in the Lifesaver program. 499 00:26:34,920 --> 00:26:37,359 Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm really interested in that. 500 00:26:37,520 --> 00:26:42,080 Speaker 4: I think they've done a lot more. Muslim leadership, leadership 501 00:26:42,119 --> 00:26:46,359 Speaker 4: at a political, social, religious level, have been searching for 502 00:26:46,520 --> 00:26:49,440 Speaker 4: ways where we can understand each other better. I think 503 00:26:49,520 --> 00:26:50,960 Speaker 4: we learnt something out of this. 504 00:26:51,320 --> 00:26:54,080 Speaker 1: Yeah, well, I'd like to think some good has come 505 00:26:54,160 --> 00:26:56,600 Speaker 1: up of it, because it's a situation that no one 506 00:26:56,680 --> 00:26:59,760 Speaker 1: was happy that occurred. That if some good can come 507 00:26:59,760 --> 00:27:02,240 Speaker 1: from let's break it down. 508 00:27:03,200 --> 00:27:05,720 Speaker 4: If someone comes up and pushes you out of the way, 509 00:27:06,680 --> 00:27:09,920 Speaker 4: most folks, unfortunately, might be inclined to make a comment 510 00:27:09,960 --> 00:27:13,240 Speaker 4: about their skin color. They're a male or a female, 511 00:27:13,359 --> 00:27:15,399 Speaker 4: or have a beard, or have a pink dress on 512 00:27:15,520 --> 00:27:20,200 Speaker 4: or a pink shirt. But that doesn't mean they're deeply 513 00:27:20,240 --> 00:27:22,840 Speaker 4: motivated by that. It's just there was an incident, they 514 00:27:22,920 --> 00:27:24,520 Speaker 4: felt threatened, they said something, they. 515 00:27:24,480 --> 00:27:28,399 Speaker 1: Should and react. There's a lot of it. Say, we 516 00:27:28,520 --> 00:27:32,520 Speaker 1: understand what happened with the text messages, and I just 517 00:27:32,960 --> 00:27:35,760 Speaker 1: talk about talk about the text messages and from your 518 00:27:35,760 --> 00:27:39,800 Speaker 1: book the quotes with the text messages. But before I do, 519 00:27:39,920 --> 00:27:43,040 Speaker 1: I really take on board what you say about the 520 00:27:43,080 --> 00:27:46,000 Speaker 1: media escalating it. There's a responsibility that comes in media, 521 00:27:46,040 --> 00:27:48,600 Speaker 1: and I've learned that in the last couple of years 522 00:27:48,920 --> 00:27:53,400 Speaker 1: working in the media that you can feel discontent and yeah, 523 00:27:53,520 --> 00:27:56,600 Speaker 1: if something's given badge as a particular thing, or the 524 00:27:56,640 --> 00:27:59,359 Speaker 1: headlines are given you, if it bleeds it leads that 525 00:27:59,480 --> 00:28:02,560 Speaker 1: type of thing, you can cause problems with it. But 526 00:28:02,640 --> 00:28:06,680 Speaker 1: these text messages, like there's no ambiguity about the text messages. 527 00:28:06,680 --> 00:28:08,960 Speaker 1: And I'll read them out from both sides, so we're 528 00:28:08,960 --> 00:28:12,239 Speaker 1: hearing it from both So from your book just some 529 00:28:12,320 --> 00:28:16,200 Speaker 1: of the quotes, I'll do the Caucasian text messages sent 530 00:28:16,240 --> 00:28:20,760 Speaker 1: by Caucasians or we're assuming Caucasians. Ozsi's this Sunday every 531 00:28:20,840 --> 00:28:22,880 Speaker 1: fucking ossie in the Shy I get down to North 532 00:28:22,880 --> 00:28:26,200 Speaker 1: Cronulla to help support lebon Wog bashing day. And then 533 00:28:26,680 --> 00:28:30,680 Speaker 1: we've got one from Middle Eastern. All lebo Wog brothers 534 00:28:30,720 --> 00:28:34,680 Speaker 1: Sunday midday must be at North Cranulla. These skippy Aussies want, well, 535 00:28:34,800 --> 00:28:36,960 Speaker 1: bring your guns and knives and let's show them how 536 00:28:37,000 --> 00:28:40,000 Speaker 1: we do it. Then there's one. And these aren't the 537 00:28:40,080 --> 00:28:43,000 Speaker 1: text messages responding backwards and forwards to each other. These 538 00:28:43,000 --> 00:28:45,120 Speaker 1: are the ones that have been sent out on a 539 00:28:45,200 --> 00:28:49,240 Speaker 1: large scale from the Caucasian side. Bring your mates and 540 00:28:49,280 --> 00:28:51,720 Speaker 1: let's show them this is our beach. And then never welcome. 541 00:28:52,000 --> 00:28:55,320 Speaker 1: Let's kill these boys. And then from the Middle Eastern 542 00:28:56,200 --> 00:28:59,720 Speaker 1: fight each ossi you lay, let's get hectic and turn 543 00:28:59,760 --> 00:29:02,320 Speaker 1: God country in the wogs country bid we'll be cooking 544 00:29:02,400 --> 00:29:06,520 Speaker 1: victory kebabs after. Tell all your cousins like they're inflammatory, 545 00:29:06,520 --> 00:29:09,920 Speaker 1: aren't they You've read that. Who's a knucklehead that's been 546 00:29:09,960 --> 00:29:13,440 Speaker 1: sending those out? But you send them out to Is 547 00:29:13,480 --> 00:29:15,800 Speaker 1: it fair to assume the majority of people caught up 548 00:29:15,800 --> 00:29:19,680 Speaker 1: in the escalation of revenge attacks and the violence on 549 00:29:19,680 --> 00:29:24,680 Speaker 1: the day were young males. Yes, so this type of 550 00:29:25,000 --> 00:29:28,000 Speaker 1: communication and I take on board what you say, Mark too. 551 00:29:28,200 --> 00:29:30,960 Speaker 1: It's social media that we hadn't really experienced before. But 552 00:29:31,040 --> 00:29:33,680 Speaker 1: this was virtually a call to arms from both sides. 553 00:29:34,040 --> 00:29:37,040 Speaker 4: Chain was the first time there were chained texting, and 554 00:29:37,640 --> 00:29:41,360 Speaker 4: so there were texts sent in their thousands, but often 555 00:29:41,400 --> 00:29:43,560 Speaker 4: to groups of people that passed it on to groups 556 00:29:43,600 --> 00:29:45,520 Speaker 4: of people. But I think one thing we do make 557 00:29:45,680 --> 00:29:49,120 Speaker 4: clear in the book area is there needs to be 558 00:29:50,000 --> 00:29:54,760 Speaker 4: something before a message telling you to do something motivates you. 559 00:29:54,840 --> 00:29:58,080 Speaker 4: No one turns up in protests because Alan Jones talked 560 00:29:58,120 --> 00:30:02,200 Speaker 4: it up on your show. Daily Telegraph ran a front 561 00:30:02,240 --> 00:30:05,800 Speaker 4: page about a lifeguard being belted, So there was that 562 00:30:06,000 --> 00:30:11,120 Speaker 4: kernel of resentment intentions, and then the pervasiveness of the 563 00:30:11,240 --> 00:30:14,640 Speaker 4: message was off the charts compared to what had happened 564 00:30:14,640 --> 00:30:18,160 Speaker 4: in recent years. Thousands and thousands of these messages and 565 00:30:18,200 --> 00:30:19,280 Speaker 4: then the rest is history. 566 00:30:19,360 --> 00:30:22,040 Speaker 1: And you've got people, and I'm taking on board, you've 567 00:30:22,040 --> 00:30:26,280 Speaker 1: got people from outside coming in coming into coming in 568 00:30:26,320 --> 00:30:31,360 Speaker 1: to represent Cronulla and coming in to represent the Middle 569 00:30:31,400 --> 00:30:34,920 Speaker 1: Eastern side that weren't really associated with the original incident. 570 00:30:34,960 --> 00:30:39,479 Speaker 4: They've brought bored into the irony. It'd be funny if 571 00:30:39,520 --> 00:30:41,760 Speaker 4: it wasn't so serious? Is that a lot of the 572 00:30:41,800 --> 00:30:45,280 Speaker 4: reasons why Cronulla Crop cops image is because of non 573 00:30:45,320 --> 00:30:48,840 Speaker 4: locals coming in and stirring it up. Another unfair element 574 00:30:48,920 --> 00:30:51,040 Speaker 4: of this awful image that did not warranted. 575 00:30:51,720 --> 00:30:56,720 Speaker 1: Understand on the day mark, with this simmary and building up, 576 00:30:56,840 --> 00:30:59,440 Speaker 1: when did you start to when did you start to 577 00:30:59,440 --> 00:31:03,480 Speaker 1: become aware of Okay, we've got something something brilliant here. 578 00:31:04,080 --> 00:31:06,440 Speaker 1: When was that sort of acknowledged and accepted. 579 00:31:07,200 --> 00:31:09,760 Speaker 3: Look, there'd been simmering issues at the beach, which you've 580 00:31:09,760 --> 00:31:13,080 Speaker 3: already discussed, and there was already an existing proactive police 581 00:31:13,080 --> 00:31:17,280 Speaker 3: operation going on down there to deal with that. And then, 582 00:31:18,160 --> 00:31:20,440 Speaker 3: like there is with all these rights and things around 583 00:31:20,440 --> 00:31:22,880 Speaker 3: the world, there's a flash point. I think you only 584 00:31:22,880 --> 00:31:26,840 Speaker 3: got look at the Paris rights, and that was a 585 00:31:26,840 --> 00:31:29,959 Speaker 3: couple of kids who got electrocuted I think in a 586 00:31:30,080 --> 00:31:31,680 Speaker 3: particular suburb, and it. 587 00:31:31,640 --> 00:31:34,200 Speaker 2: Went from there. The next minute, the whole Paris is burning, 588 00:31:34,240 --> 00:31:34,440 Speaker 2: you know. 589 00:31:34,960 --> 00:31:37,600 Speaker 3: So the flash point in this was the assault on 590 00:31:37,640 --> 00:31:40,840 Speaker 3: the lifeguards, but you know, the simmering tension underneath and 591 00:31:40,840 --> 00:31:41,760 Speaker 3: bubbling to the surface. 592 00:31:41,760 --> 00:31:44,360 Speaker 2: People had enough by then, So that was the final straw. 593 00:31:44,560 --> 00:31:49,040 Speaker 3: Okay, And then so we're already aware of it, and 594 00:31:49,200 --> 00:31:52,240 Speaker 3: I'd been speaking to Superintendent Robert Redfern, who was the 595 00:31:52,240 --> 00:31:57,440 Speaker 3: local area commander at Cronull there about the forthcoming beach 596 00:31:58,360 --> 00:32:01,680 Speaker 3: safe operations and so forth that sometimes I was a 597 00:32:01,720 --> 00:32:04,680 Speaker 3: regional commander, so all those local commanders report to me. 598 00:32:05,160 --> 00:32:08,640 Speaker 1: So just to explain that to people listening, I understand 599 00:32:08,640 --> 00:32:11,640 Speaker 1: and Carl obviously understands. But you as a regional command 600 00:32:11,640 --> 00:32:15,200 Speaker 1: to sit over the top of all the local area commands. 601 00:32:14,840 --> 00:32:18,080 Speaker 3: That's correct, and then like twenty or something local commands 602 00:32:18,160 --> 00:32:21,320 Speaker 3: under me. So if there's needs to move resources between 603 00:32:21,360 --> 00:32:23,320 Speaker 3: things for special operations and all that sort of stuff, 604 00:32:23,680 --> 00:32:25,240 Speaker 3: that becomes a decision at my level. 605 00:32:25,320 --> 00:32:27,680 Speaker 2: And so those sort of things are under discussion. 606 00:32:27,680 --> 00:32:30,680 Speaker 3: But once that flash point occurred and it was subject 607 00:32:30,680 --> 00:32:34,840 Speaker 3: to the media, it was so normally the Kernala area 608 00:32:34,840 --> 00:32:37,400 Speaker 3: sits at a low risk on the community Tensions Risk 609 00:32:37,440 --> 00:32:42,000 Speaker 3: Assessment scale, and so we asked the local command to 610 00:32:42,040 --> 00:32:44,600 Speaker 3: look at that. And then after that very first assault, 611 00:32:44,600 --> 00:32:47,600 Speaker 3: it immediately came in as a medium risk. But then 612 00:32:47,640 --> 00:32:50,400 Speaker 3: the media started and then the text messaging started, and 613 00:32:50,400 --> 00:32:53,560 Speaker 3: we've already discussed that about how much that was and 614 00:32:53,600 --> 00:32:57,760 Speaker 3: how at that extended the scope of it. 615 00:32:57,920 --> 00:33:00,440 Speaker 1: So how did you guys become a way of the 616 00:33:00,480 --> 00:33:04,200 Speaker 1: text messages where you you became aware of the magnitude 617 00:33:04,240 --> 00:33:05,880 Speaker 1: and the nature of the text messages. 618 00:33:05,960 --> 00:33:08,560 Speaker 3: Well, a lot of parents were reporting it to police 619 00:33:08,640 --> 00:33:10,200 Speaker 3: because all their kids were getting it. 620 00:33:10,880 --> 00:33:14,360 Speaker 2: It was targeted at youth, and and youth to youth. 621 00:33:14,400 --> 00:33:17,360 Speaker 3: That mean if you hit your contact list and kids 622 00:33:17,360 --> 00:33:21,360 Speaker 3: were stupidly passing it on to their others, friends and 623 00:33:21,360 --> 00:33:23,080 Speaker 3: so forth. So it was growing and it was it 624 00:33:23,120 --> 00:33:26,400 Speaker 3: was well known to us that it was occurring and 625 00:33:26,440 --> 00:33:28,719 Speaker 3: the media and then you know, the media were printing 626 00:33:28,760 --> 00:33:30,240 Speaker 3: what was contained in these text messages. 627 00:33:30,280 --> 00:33:33,880 Speaker 2: It which inflators never ending round circle. 628 00:33:34,520 --> 00:33:36,840 Speaker 4: You'd have to have been on Mars not to know 629 00:33:37,000 --> 00:33:40,400 Speaker 4: something was about to happen. So as Minister I knew, 630 00:33:40,640 --> 00:33:44,040 Speaker 4: Marcus Assistant Commissioner, you we prepared for it. But all 631 00:33:44,120 --> 00:33:47,120 Speaker 4: that build up was almost like the air was crackling 632 00:33:47,200 --> 00:33:48,400 Speaker 4: with static electricity. 633 00:33:48,720 --> 00:33:50,600 Speaker 2: But then feel it. But then there was a second 634 00:33:50,640 --> 00:33:51,520 Speaker 2: incident down there. 635 00:33:52,720 --> 00:33:57,040 Speaker 3: And look even beforehand after journalists in Sydney were walking 636 00:33:57,040 --> 00:33:59,920 Speaker 3: around Cronulla trying to create a story, looking for something, 637 00:34:00,040 --> 00:34:02,440 Speaker 3: looking to film a fight between a Lebanese guy and 638 00:34:03,160 --> 00:34:07,400 Speaker 3: a lifesaver or a Caucasian and another incident occurred on 639 00:34:07,440 --> 00:34:10,200 Speaker 3: the esplanade down there and a cameras jumped all over 640 00:34:10,239 --> 00:34:13,040 Speaker 3: it and it ended up the media got built it 641 00:34:13,880 --> 00:34:16,640 Speaker 3: right and a camera smashed and the police were called 642 00:34:16,719 --> 00:34:19,799 Speaker 3: and so forth, and then that then escalated again and 643 00:34:19,840 --> 00:34:22,879 Speaker 3: the media really went to town. Then you know, look, 644 00:34:22,880 --> 00:34:25,560 Speaker 3: it's true, we've got another example of and I think 645 00:34:25,560 --> 00:34:28,920 Speaker 3: there was some lifesavers involved in that as well, off duty, 646 00:34:29,080 --> 00:34:31,160 Speaker 3: and local passes by and local people, and it was 647 00:34:31,160 --> 00:34:35,440 Speaker 3: like that was portrayed as a second attack on Cronulla 648 00:34:35,520 --> 00:34:40,040 Speaker 3: and the lifeguards and the whole beach culture, and it 649 00:34:40,080 --> 00:34:42,600 Speaker 3: was really really blown out of proportion. Again, So at 650 00:34:42,640 --> 00:34:45,520 Speaker 3: that point, that's when that's when they're really wrapped up 651 00:34:45,560 --> 00:34:47,200 Speaker 3: the text messaging and. 652 00:34:47,160 --> 00:34:49,040 Speaker 2: The amount of media and stuff. 653 00:34:49,040 --> 00:34:53,279 Speaker 3: So we had a meeting amongst the senior commanders and 654 00:34:53,680 --> 00:34:57,080 Speaker 3: we overrode that risk assessment that was at that time medium, 655 00:34:57,440 --> 00:34:59,799 Speaker 3: because these risk assessments take into account like is they're 656 00:34:59,800 --> 00:35:02,040 Speaker 3: going to be a terrorist incident, is there going to 657 00:35:02,040 --> 00:35:02,799 Speaker 3: be an explosion? 658 00:35:02,880 --> 00:35:05,719 Speaker 2: And risk of those sorts of things is of course low, but. 659 00:35:05,760 --> 00:35:09,399 Speaker 3: Risk of public order and disruption, assaults and those sorts 660 00:35:09,400 --> 00:35:12,400 Speaker 3: of things is like high, if not extremely high. So 661 00:35:12,480 --> 00:35:14,920 Speaker 3: when all balances out in those days, there was no 662 00:35:15,280 --> 00:35:17,440 Speaker 3: part of that risk assessment that had anything to do 663 00:35:17,520 --> 00:35:21,880 Speaker 3: with text mass text messaging or the amount of media 664 00:35:21,920 --> 00:35:25,799 Speaker 3: that was generating in this public order incident. So we 665 00:35:25,840 --> 00:35:29,680 Speaker 3: overrode that risk assessment and rose it to high risk. 666 00:35:29,719 --> 00:35:32,600 Speaker 3: And that's when I, as a region commander and Assistant commissioner, 667 00:35:33,080 --> 00:35:35,160 Speaker 3: that means that as a high risk incident, I then 668 00:35:35,200 --> 00:35:38,800 Speaker 3: take that over personally, take it over personally conduct the planning. 669 00:35:38,840 --> 00:35:42,120 Speaker 2: So we re met and bought in a hell of 670 00:35:42,120 --> 00:35:42,479 Speaker 2: a lot. 671 00:35:42,400 --> 00:35:45,399 Speaker 3: Of specialist resources and experts in public order management leading 672 00:35:45,480 --> 00:35:51,400 Speaker 3: up to it to redo a plan based upon the 673 00:35:51,480 --> 00:35:55,600 Speaker 3: high risk assessment and brief the Deputy commission of SCIPIONI 674 00:35:55,640 --> 00:35:58,200 Speaker 3: at the time and Commissioner Marine that had been raised 675 00:35:58,239 --> 00:36:03,640 Speaker 3: to high risk, and the Minister and Premier Maurice Yemma 676 00:36:03,760 --> 00:36:06,799 Speaker 3: came down to Cronulla and spoke to us and we 677 00:36:06,920 --> 00:36:08,879 Speaker 3: briefed them on the fact that I had been raised 678 00:36:08,920 --> 00:36:10,759 Speaker 3: a higher risk and therefore that's the reason I have 679 00:36:10,840 --> 00:36:14,400 Speaker 3: now taken it over personally and then gave them an 680 00:36:14,400 --> 00:36:16,600 Speaker 3: assurance that the police resources that we were committing to 681 00:36:16,640 --> 00:36:18,680 Speaker 3: it and then we all did a media press release 682 00:36:19,280 --> 00:36:22,319 Speaker 3: warning the public about the intended police response to it 683 00:36:22,360 --> 00:36:23,440 Speaker 3: on the beach that day. 684 00:36:23,280 --> 00:36:28,359 Speaker 1: So appropriate in the circumstances to give an indication of 685 00:36:28,800 --> 00:36:32,520 Speaker 1: what sort of responsibly if the actions get out of hand. 686 00:36:33,000 --> 00:36:36,080 Speaker 1: From a political point of view, KRLA just fascinated that 687 00:36:36,840 --> 00:36:40,960 Speaker 1: the premiers involved yourself as a police minister meeting with police. 688 00:36:41,960 --> 00:36:44,759 Speaker 1: What was your feeling from a political point of view 689 00:36:44,880 --> 00:36:45,879 Speaker 1: on what was going. 690 00:36:45,840 --> 00:36:50,400 Speaker 4: To Firstly, I should mention the wider international local context 691 00:36:50,480 --> 00:36:54,440 Speaker 4: which folks, younger folks don't even know about, but you 692 00:36:54,520 --> 00:36:58,279 Speaker 4: and I Mark would well recall. Firstly, Task Force Gain 693 00:36:58,920 --> 00:37:04,799 Speaker 4: like probably twenty very seriously violent Lebanese Muslim criminals had 694 00:37:04,840 --> 00:37:07,960 Speaker 4: they been on the street. Goodness knows where this could 695 00:37:07,960 --> 00:37:11,960 Speaker 4: have gone because the public were aware that the police 696 00:37:12,000 --> 00:37:14,839 Speaker 4: and the government had responded and locked those men up. 697 00:37:15,360 --> 00:37:20,839 Speaker 4: Then you had the scaff brother gang rapes, shocking crimes. Then, 698 00:37:20,880 --> 00:37:25,960 Speaker 4: of course Muslim attacks on tourists in Bali and the 699 00:37:26,000 --> 00:37:29,640 Speaker 4: London bombings as well, in both in two thousand and five, 700 00:37:30,040 --> 00:37:34,600 Speaker 4: so there was a broader international local context. Sadly, for 701 00:37:34,680 --> 00:37:38,160 Speaker 4: the Muslim Middle Eastern community, it was like they were 702 00:37:38,200 --> 00:37:42,160 Speaker 4: attacking Caucasian Australia. They weren't ridiculous, but there was a 703 00:37:42,160 --> 00:37:43,080 Speaker 4: broader context. 704 00:37:43,440 --> 00:37:44,120 Speaker 5: But from my. 705 00:37:44,200 --> 00:37:48,920 Speaker 4: Perspective as the local police minister, I felt we were 706 00:37:48,920 --> 00:37:51,880 Speaker 4: in good hands. The Premier and I are very concerned 707 00:37:51,920 --> 00:37:53,799 Speaker 4: about what I said. You could hear that, feel this 708 00:37:53,880 --> 00:37:56,839 Speaker 4: crackle in the air. Something was going to happen. But 709 00:37:57,000 --> 00:38:02,120 Speaker 4: we were reassured with justification. Of course, dissent was quelled, 710 00:38:02,400 --> 00:38:05,960 Speaker 4: order was restored, Peace return to the suburbs and streets 711 00:38:05,960 --> 00:38:09,600 Speaker 4: of Sydney, and that awful fear people had for a 712 00:38:09,640 --> 00:38:13,680 Speaker 4: period of time evaporated. Why did it evaporated because the 713 00:38:13,760 --> 00:38:14,680 Speaker 4: police dealt with it. 714 00:38:14,880 --> 00:38:19,680 Speaker 1: Yeah, And I think that's it's probably not fully appreciated 715 00:38:19,840 --> 00:38:21,799 Speaker 1: how bad it could have gone. And we're going to 716 00:38:21,840 --> 00:38:24,279 Speaker 1: talk about some of the things that followed up with 717 00:38:24,400 --> 00:38:27,279 Speaker 1: the revenge attacks and some of the intel that you got. 718 00:38:27,880 --> 00:38:31,120 Speaker 1: Talk us about the daymark. So you've got your resources, 719 00:38:31,320 --> 00:38:35,479 Speaker 1: there's an understanding, you've got support from the politicians, you've 720 00:38:35,480 --> 00:38:39,359 Speaker 1: got yourself, you're in control of the situation. Now talk 721 00:38:39,440 --> 00:38:40,840 Speaker 1: us about the day of the build up for the 722 00:38:40,920 --> 00:38:43,440 Speaker 1: day and did you have enough resources? Were you happy 723 00:38:43,480 --> 00:38:45,680 Speaker 1: with the things that you put in place at that time. 724 00:38:45,920 --> 00:38:46,160 Speaker 2: Yeah. 725 00:38:46,200 --> 00:38:49,600 Speaker 3: Well, during the day, as I said, it was a 726 00:38:49,600 --> 00:38:53,680 Speaker 3: barme summer day. You know, hot people just turned up 727 00:38:53,719 --> 00:38:55,640 Speaker 3: their rubberinecking, which just. 728 00:38:55,640 --> 00:38:58,160 Speaker 1: In itself too doesn't help, does it when it's a 729 00:38:58,200 --> 00:39:00,760 Speaker 1: hot because it brings people to the So you've probably 730 00:39:00,800 --> 00:39:03,480 Speaker 1: got an extra fifty percent of people turned up that 731 00:39:03,480 --> 00:39:04,320 Speaker 1: wouldn't normally. 732 00:39:04,160 --> 00:39:07,640 Speaker 2: Talks training, the wouldn't have been anyone, like most people. 733 00:39:07,440 --> 00:39:08,960 Speaker 5: Were looking at people looking at people. 734 00:39:09,040 --> 00:39:10,080 Speaker 2: Yeah. 735 00:39:09,280 --> 00:39:13,000 Speaker 3: Yeah, And the reality is, like, you know, throughout the morning, 736 00:39:13,000 --> 00:39:14,440 Speaker 3: it was like a carnival down there, you know. 737 00:39:14,440 --> 00:39:15,839 Speaker 2: Like pretty much like Australia Day. 738 00:39:15,840 --> 00:39:18,120 Speaker 3: There was people walking around draped in the Australian flag 739 00:39:18,160 --> 00:39:20,760 Speaker 3: with you know, the face tattoos of the Australian flag, 740 00:39:20,840 --> 00:39:24,080 Speaker 3: and they're having barbecues and the back of uts and 741 00:39:25,160 --> 00:39:28,600 Speaker 3: there's singing of the national anthem and all singing Matilda. 742 00:39:28,680 --> 00:39:32,160 Speaker 3: And even look that this local surf club they've pret 743 00:39:32,760 --> 00:39:35,319 Speaker 3: the CEO down there approached me and said, look, we've 744 00:39:35,360 --> 00:39:38,680 Speaker 3: got a pre planned new surfboat to launch today. It's 745 00:39:38,680 --> 00:39:40,879 Speaker 3: a big thing for the club and sponsors are turning 746 00:39:40,920 --> 00:39:42,439 Speaker 3: up and then nippers were going to carry it down 747 00:39:42,480 --> 00:39:45,640 Speaker 3: on their shoulders and it's going to be launched and stuff, 748 00:39:46,000 --> 00:39:47,600 Speaker 3: we should we go ahead with that or cancel it? 749 00:39:47,600 --> 00:39:48,799 Speaker 3: And I said, well, mate, you couldn't get a more 750 00:39:48,840 --> 00:39:50,479 Speaker 3: patriotic crowd than when you got here at the moment. 751 00:39:50,600 --> 00:39:53,560 Speaker 2: So that occurred and the crowd we're cheering on and 752 00:39:53,640 --> 00:39:54,200 Speaker 2: blah blah blah. 753 00:39:54,239 --> 00:39:57,000 Speaker 3: But you know, you don't see any of this in 754 00:39:57,040 --> 00:39:58,800 Speaker 3: the media because it didn't suit the agenda. 755 00:39:58,840 --> 00:40:02,359 Speaker 1: Gary, Could I yeah, I take on ball what you say, 756 00:40:02,400 --> 00:40:06,759 Speaker 1: but could I just throw this in as a counterpoint 757 00:40:06,800 --> 00:40:12,719 Speaker 1: that that patriotic display was people turning up saying well, 758 00:40:13,239 --> 00:40:15,600 Speaker 1: this is this is our land, this is our beach, 759 00:40:15,640 --> 00:40:18,640 Speaker 1: and yeah, the nothers and there were nothings out there 760 00:40:18,680 --> 00:40:20,560 Speaker 1: saying you know, we'll fight you on the beach and 761 00:40:20,880 --> 00:40:23,759 Speaker 1: that type of stuff. But could that be I'm just 762 00:40:23,800 --> 00:40:26,239 Speaker 1: throwing this out. Could that be misinterpreted from the Middle 763 00:40:26,280 --> 00:40:28,879 Speaker 1: Eastern side. It's almost like waving the flag. 764 00:40:30,080 --> 00:40:32,360 Speaker 3: You know, it was, it was and has been and 765 00:40:32,400 --> 00:40:35,840 Speaker 3: has been since there's been a huge downturn in the sales, 766 00:40:36,000 --> 00:40:38,200 Speaker 3: even in an Australia day. I mean, look at last 767 00:40:38,239 --> 00:40:41,000 Speaker 3: year with alls. They didn't have the Australia stuff on stuff. 768 00:40:41,520 --> 00:40:44,600 Speaker 3: And you look immediately after the Cornelia Race, the very 769 00:40:44,640 --> 00:40:46,640 Speaker 3: next year, I noticed it was almost dead in Coronela 770 00:40:46,640 --> 00:40:48,680 Speaker 3: and Australia because people were embarrassed about it, because the 771 00:40:48,880 --> 00:40:51,640 Speaker 3: Australian flag undoubtedly had been used as a symbol of 772 00:40:52,560 --> 00:40:55,440 Speaker 3: this is ours. We belong here, you don't. And there 773 00:40:55,440 --> 00:40:58,600 Speaker 3: were slogans on people's chests you know, we grew here, 774 00:40:58,680 --> 00:41:01,359 Speaker 3: you flew here, and all this sort of rubbish, which 775 00:41:01,480 --> 00:41:07,080 Speaker 3: was stupid young people thinking it's funny. And then you know, 776 00:41:07,880 --> 00:41:11,120 Speaker 3: the alcohol took hold hot day and there was literally 777 00:41:11,480 --> 00:41:14,759 Speaker 3: decisions on the shoulders coming down the the King's Way 778 00:41:14,800 --> 00:41:16,840 Speaker 3: there into the into the area where the protest was 779 00:41:16,880 --> 00:41:21,520 Speaker 3: being grog galore, and and once the alcohol kicked in, 780 00:41:21,920 --> 00:41:24,279 Speaker 3: the violence started. The sprookers in the crowd then thought, 781 00:41:24,360 --> 00:41:26,440 Speaker 3: you beauty, they've played up to the cameras. 782 00:41:26,440 --> 00:41:29,680 Speaker 2: They've started chance far off labs in the crowds. 783 00:41:30,400 --> 00:41:33,839 Speaker 3: And then there was a couple of Lebanese young people 784 00:41:33,880 --> 00:41:36,560 Speaker 3: that were chanced upon down there and it was sulted. 785 00:41:36,640 --> 00:41:40,240 Speaker 1: What was the story there? What what happened? 786 00:41:40,239 --> 00:41:41,760 Speaker 2: There were most disgraceful behavior. 787 00:41:41,800 --> 00:41:45,440 Speaker 3: I mean, you know, there was some Lebanese people that 788 00:41:45,520 --> 00:41:48,680 Speaker 3: turned up at Cronola that day that were viciously assaulted undoubtedly, 789 00:41:49,040 --> 00:41:50,400 Speaker 3: but the police were all over it. 790 00:41:50,440 --> 00:41:51,600 Speaker 2: They snuffed it out quickly. 791 00:41:51,640 --> 00:41:54,400 Speaker 3: I mean, we copped accusations later that the police were 792 00:41:54,440 --> 00:41:56,360 Speaker 3: wandering around unsupervised by command. 793 00:41:57,000 --> 00:41:57,720 Speaker 2: That's rubbish. 794 00:41:58,080 --> 00:42:01,040 Speaker 3: Everything that the history shows and the the footage shows 795 00:42:01,080 --> 00:42:05,120 Speaker 3: is that every single incident was immediately swarmed upon by 796 00:42:05,120 --> 00:42:07,680 Speaker 3: a large number of police and snuffed out. And as 797 00:42:07,719 --> 00:42:09,920 Speaker 3: I said to before, I think that throughout the entire 798 00:42:10,120 --> 00:42:13,399 Speaker 3: day like nothing, nothing occurred basically by lunchtime at all, 799 00:42:14,160 --> 00:42:16,799 Speaker 3: and the media was standing around looking with palpable looks 800 00:42:16,840 --> 00:42:18,200 Speaker 3: on their faces like they were all going to get 801 00:42:18,200 --> 00:42:19,920 Speaker 3: sacked when they went in because of the amount that 802 00:42:19,920 --> 00:42:21,520 Speaker 3: they'd blown it up in the in the. 803 00:42:21,520 --> 00:42:24,040 Speaker 1: Lead up, and they had they had story for the 804 00:42:24,040 --> 00:42:25,040 Speaker 1: six o'clock. 805 00:42:24,760 --> 00:42:27,160 Speaker 2: Had a dark egg? Is it nothing to go back with? 806 00:42:28,320 --> 00:42:29,560 Speaker 3: And look you can see on the front of the 807 00:42:29,600 --> 00:42:32,040 Speaker 3: book there that one of the spirit because he's surrounded 808 00:42:32,080 --> 00:42:35,719 Speaker 3: by literally desperate cameras and furry microphones and trying to 809 00:42:35,719 --> 00:42:39,800 Speaker 3: get something, you know, and that was baiting then the crowd, 810 00:42:39,880 --> 00:42:42,840 Speaker 3: you know, and those people anyone that started that became 811 00:42:42,880 --> 00:42:44,840 Speaker 3: the focus of all the media cameras and it was 812 00:42:44,840 --> 00:42:46,520 Speaker 3: like they were you know, you know what, young. 813 00:42:46,320 --> 00:42:47,440 Speaker 2: Blokes arelike with alcohol. 814 00:42:47,960 --> 00:42:52,400 Speaker 3: They started playing up to the cameras, so recipe for disaster. 815 00:42:52,560 --> 00:42:56,440 Speaker 1: What what was brewing there that those two young Lebanese 816 00:42:56,440 --> 00:42:58,440 Speaker 1: blakes that got assault of those they're the ones that 817 00:42:58,520 --> 00:43:01,399 Speaker 1: the police have detected them and got the out there. 818 00:43:01,440 --> 00:43:02,200 Speaker 2: Look, there wasn't just that. 819 00:43:02,200 --> 00:43:04,560 Speaker 3: There was a number of these things occurred and it 820 00:43:04,680 --> 00:43:09,600 Speaker 3: was one incident where the police decided to evacuate those 821 00:43:09,640 --> 00:43:12,040 Speaker 3: people in there in an ambulance that was there and 822 00:43:12,080 --> 00:43:14,600 Speaker 3: there was all bottles thrown at the ambulance. Now there 823 00:43:14,640 --> 00:43:17,360 Speaker 3: wasn't Australian throwing bottles at ambulance, you know, that was 824 00:43:17,800 --> 00:43:20,000 Speaker 3: unheard of. It was because there was a couple of 825 00:43:20,040 --> 00:43:24,759 Speaker 3: young Lebanese people in there getting transported. And then you 826 00:43:24,760 --> 00:43:27,759 Speaker 3: know the media really have grabbed onto that. There was 827 00:43:27,800 --> 00:43:31,279 Speaker 3: an incident at the Coronella railway station where it went 828 00:43:31,320 --> 00:43:34,600 Speaker 3: around the crowd like wildfire that all the Lebanese from 829 00:43:34,640 --> 00:43:36,600 Speaker 3: the western suburbs were on the train and coming down 830 00:43:36,600 --> 00:43:41,160 Speaker 3: to attack Coronella. So hundreds of youth ran from the 831 00:43:41,200 --> 00:43:43,920 Speaker 3: beach to the railway station. It was like a swarm 832 00:43:43,960 --> 00:43:45,920 Speaker 3: and looks what's going on here? Where the police at 833 00:43:45,960 --> 00:43:47,759 Speaker 3: the police command. You know, and that's what it was. 834 00:43:48,360 --> 00:43:51,719 Speaker 3: And there's two two young Lebanese boys on the train 835 00:43:51,800 --> 00:43:53,920 Speaker 3: that I don't think even knew what was happening at Coronella. 836 00:43:54,000 --> 00:43:56,040 Speaker 1: That probably just probably. 837 00:43:57,200 --> 00:43:58,680 Speaker 2: Just oblivious to it anyway. 838 00:43:59,280 --> 00:44:06,200 Speaker 3: So literally dozens of these inebriated Caucasian Bagans got onto 839 00:44:06,239 --> 00:44:09,759 Speaker 3: the train and started violently assaulting these young boys, and 840 00:44:09,800 --> 00:44:13,280 Speaker 3: it was disgraceful behavior. And that was captured by cameras 841 00:44:13,280 --> 00:44:16,120 Speaker 3: from all sorts of angles on that carriage and Sergeant 842 00:44:16,120 --> 00:44:20,680 Speaker 3: Craig Campbell who was there wilding the baton Milo. 843 00:44:21,000 --> 00:44:24,480 Speaker 2: So that's so that's ingrained in Australian history. 844 00:44:24,280 --> 00:44:27,560 Speaker 3: That imagery, right, Yeah, it's an iconic everyone knows, everyone 845 00:44:27,600 --> 00:44:28,200 Speaker 3: knows they're big. 846 00:44:28,560 --> 00:44:29,640 Speaker 2: And he says to us, like. 847 00:44:31,120 --> 00:44:33,520 Speaker 3: Those young Caucasian boys should have named better the deal 848 00:44:33,560 --> 00:44:36,960 Speaker 3: with a one hundred and fifty kilo black like me, 849 00:44:37,080 --> 00:44:39,359 Speaker 3: within a six foot of spun al aluminium in his hand, 850 00:44:39,400 --> 00:44:42,279 Speaker 3: and off he went, and he says, so I'd go 851 00:44:42,360 --> 00:44:44,759 Speaker 3: him a tune up with Milo, And then Carl and 852 00:44:44,840 --> 00:44:46,600 Speaker 3: I have looked at each other when because he's interviewed 853 00:44:46,640 --> 00:44:50,160 Speaker 3: in our books, he looked at Milo, Craig, what do 854 00:44:50,200 --> 00:44:53,560 Speaker 3: you call your baton? Milo, he goes, Oh, it's marvelous 855 00:44:53,560 --> 00:44:54,759 Speaker 3: what a different Milo makes. 856 00:44:55,600 --> 00:44:59,719 Speaker 4: Okay, but that incident is the best of law enforcement 857 00:45:00,000 --> 00:45:03,440 Speaker 4: in this country and the worst of young male behavior. 858 00:45:03,920 --> 00:45:09,080 Speaker 4: But it becomes iconographic of what happened in the entire 859 00:45:09,200 --> 00:45:13,640 Speaker 4: transaction over that summer, and it's not it was shocking. 860 00:45:13,840 --> 00:45:16,920 Speaker 4: It was offensive, and it was dealt with by law enforcement, 861 00:45:17,239 --> 00:45:20,440 Speaker 4: but it's a small number of offensive young males, and 862 00:45:20,680 --> 00:45:23,680 Speaker 4: far worse behavior happened in the next few days that 863 00:45:23,960 --> 00:45:25,080 Speaker 4: no one really knows about. 864 00:45:26,880 --> 00:45:29,200 Speaker 1: Yeah, well, we are again to talk about all the 865 00:45:29,239 --> 00:45:32,799 Speaker 1: things that happened after there on that day. A couple 866 00:45:32,880 --> 00:45:37,320 Speaker 1: of things that you managed to speak to licensed premises 867 00:45:37,320 --> 00:45:39,400 Speaker 1: and stop the service of alcohol, was that one of 868 00:45:39,440 --> 00:45:42,000 Speaker 1: the things. But that was only on the voluntary. 869 00:45:43,160 --> 00:45:46,200 Speaker 2: Rob Redfern, the local commander down there, and his police 870 00:45:46,239 --> 00:45:49,120 Speaker 2: had a very good relationship through a liquor licensing accord 871 00:45:49,200 --> 00:45:52,719 Speaker 2: with the local licensed premises there, and you know, once 872 00:45:53,239 --> 00:45:55,359 Speaker 2: was noted that the alcohol was grabbing control and people 873 00:45:55,400 --> 00:45:57,360 Speaker 2: were walking down the Kingsway from bottle shops and the 874 00:45:57,360 --> 00:46:00,400 Speaker 2: pub there and everything, they quite willingly show down their 875 00:46:00,440 --> 00:46:02,759 Speaker 2: alcohol sales, and I think that made a very big 876 00:46:02,800 --> 00:46:05,120 Speaker 2: difference to be honest with you, Goodness knows what would 877 00:46:05,120 --> 00:46:07,520 Speaker 2: have occurred if the alcohol kept flowing because it was 878 00:46:07,520 --> 00:46:11,960 Speaker 2: completely shut off. So hats off to those suppliers. 879 00:46:11,360 --> 00:46:13,400 Speaker 3: That very much cooperated with the place on the day, 880 00:46:13,440 --> 00:46:15,400 Speaker 3: and hats off to the local police there that already 881 00:46:15,400 --> 00:46:18,319 Speaker 3: had that existing relationship that they could request that and 882 00:46:18,360 --> 00:46:21,280 Speaker 3: it was acceeded to quite quickly by those licensed premises. 883 00:46:21,320 --> 00:46:24,719 Speaker 1: So how many you might have the exact figures, But 884 00:46:24,800 --> 00:46:28,200 Speaker 1: the arrests that took place on that day were was 885 00:46:28,200 --> 00:46:30,840 Speaker 1: it more about quelling the right? Not so much about 886 00:46:30,880 --> 00:46:34,080 Speaker 1: their rest but what took place on the on the day? 887 00:46:34,160 --> 00:46:35,799 Speaker 5: I thought it was mostly following up. 888 00:46:36,680 --> 00:46:38,120 Speaker 2: There was a rest, There was a rest made on 889 00:46:38,160 --> 00:46:38,760 Speaker 2: the day. 890 00:46:39,160 --> 00:46:40,839 Speaker 5: Mostly strike force innaugur. 891 00:46:40,719 --> 00:46:44,560 Speaker 3: Mostly immediate things that occurred and scuffles with police. There 892 00:46:44,560 --> 00:46:48,080 Speaker 3: were people arrested on the day, but there was all 893 00:46:48,120 --> 00:46:51,919 Speaker 3: that imagery was seized or sought by the police from 894 00:46:51,920 --> 00:46:54,239 Speaker 3: media outlets, wonderful evidence. 895 00:46:55,120 --> 00:46:56,640 Speaker 1: You can't you can't beat the video. 896 00:46:57,200 --> 00:47:00,080 Speaker 3: How rest came from investigation follow ups of incidents that 897 00:47:00,120 --> 00:47:01,440 Speaker 3: occurred that were captured on camera. 898 00:47:02,239 --> 00:47:04,880 Speaker 1: So the day, how long did this go on for? 899 00:47:05,000 --> 00:47:08,120 Speaker 1: When did it settle down? Because I would imagine you 900 00:47:08,280 --> 00:47:10,520 Speaker 1: didn't get much sleep that day or the next couple 901 00:47:10,560 --> 00:47:13,240 Speaker 1: of days, or any sleep summer. 902 00:47:13,320 --> 00:47:19,080 Speaker 3: So it went from early mid morning right through till 903 00:47:19,120 --> 00:47:23,400 Speaker 3: by about four or five o'clock, I think the partners 904 00:47:23,440 --> 00:47:26,640 Speaker 3: had enough and we'd start shot shut the alcohol off, 905 00:47:27,320 --> 00:47:29,840 Speaker 3: and we actually came up with a deliberate strategy to 906 00:47:30,840 --> 00:47:33,440 Speaker 3: because there was nothing occurring. They were mulling around and 907 00:47:33,440 --> 00:47:36,040 Speaker 3: people were bored, and you know, all the chanting had stopped, 908 00:47:36,080 --> 00:47:40,040 Speaker 3: and as the afternoon sun setting and so forth, and like, 909 00:47:40,120 --> 00:47:42,719 Speaker 3: we had a deliberate strategy. We actually removed quite a 910 00:47:42,800 --> 00:47:45,839 Speaker 3: number of the police deliberately off the street. We put 911 00:47:45,880 --> 00:47:49,480 Speaker 3: them into a holding area, fed them and debriefed them, 912 00:47:49,560 --> 00:47:50,720 Speaker 3: but they were ready to go again. 913 00:47:50,960 --> 00:47:52,800 Speaker 2: We're right in the middle of it, which. 914 00:47:52,640 --> 00:47:55,200 Speaker 1: Was very very I thought that was managed well because 915 00:47:55,239 --> 00:47:58,040 Speaker 1: quite often if you put the police and draw the 916 00:47:58,120 --> 00:48:00,759 Speaker 1: line antagonizes people to fight them. 917 00:48:00,800 --> 00:48:02,520 Speaker 3: Yeah, how often you see the police line there with 918 00:48:02,520 --> 00:48:05,319 Speaker 3: the batons and shields out and everything, and oh, that's 919 00:48:05,360 --> 00:48:06,799 Speaker 3: a signal we've got to fight the cops, you know. 920 00:48:07,200 --> 00:48:09,680 Speaker 2: So we we didn't have that. We had police. 921 00:48:10,000 --> 00:48:12,719 Speaker 3: It's strong numbers of police in groups walking through the crowd, 922 00:48:12,800 --> 00:48:15,200 Speaker 3: chatting to people, throughout the day. There's only a couple 923 00:48:15,239 --> 00:48:17,359 Speaker 3: of incidents and times that we did need to put 924 00:48:17,360 --> 00:48:20,000 Speaker 3: those lines in, static lines in And it was being 925 00:48:20,080 --> 00:48:23,719 Speaker 3: very well managed by very experienced police commanders on the 926 00:48:23,760 --> 00:48:27,680 Speaker 3: scene down there, who were experts in public order management 927 00:48:27,719 --> 00:48:30,759 Speaker 3: that we're working for us and they're very very good 928 00:48:30,800 --> 00:48:32,399 Speaker 3: at what they do and very good at reading crowd 929 00:48:32,480 --> 00:48:36,560 Speaker 3: behavior and crowd dynamics. So it wasn't about usket antagonizing 930 00:48:36,600 --> 00:48:39,359 Speaker 3: the crowd down there. And it's difficult decisions to make 931 00:48:39,400 --> 00:48:42,439 Speaker 3: about how to police that because often police are seen 932 00:48:42,480 --> 00:48:45,360 Speaker 3: as the face of government and someone to fight. 933 00:48:45,680 --> 00:48:47,520 Speaker 1: Yeah, well were angry people. 934 00:48:47,239 --> 00:48:49,920 Speaker 3: And turn that you can turn a protest against against 935 00:48:49,920 --> 00:48:52,560 Speaker 3: the police. But like it, there was chance going on 936 00:48:52,600 --> 00:48:54,600 Speaker 3: all day. Three cheers for the police and like there's 937 00:48:54,600 --> 00:48:56,160 Speaker 3: a guy down there we talk about in the book, 938 00:48:56,200 --> 00:48:59,240 Speaker 3: Glenn Steel. He's a local rugby league player that played 939 00:48:59,600 --> 00:49:02,080 Speaker 3: reserved for the Sharks and he's a surfer and he's 940 00:49:02,160 --> 00:49:03,640 Speaker 3: very well regarded, big. 941 00:49:03,400 --> 00:49:04,360 Speaker 2: Solid, young blake. 942 00:49:04,880 --> 00:49:07,799 Speaker 3: We're not young black, big solid black, and he's got 943 00:49:07,800 --> 00:49:09,440 Speaker 3: a hairy back and he had no shirt on and 944 00:49:09,440 --> 00:49:10,880 Speaker 3: he's got an Aussie cap on and he's up on 945 00:49:10,920 --> 00:49:15,080 Speaker 3: a milk crate with a with a megaphone. 946 00:49:15,320 --> 00:49:16,960 Speaker 2: So that ends up the front page of the paper 947 00:49:16,960 --> 00:49:17,520 Speaker 2: the next day. 948 00:49:17,600 --> 00:49:21,759 Speaker 3: Look at this bogan inciting the riots and I had 949 00:49:21,760 --> 00:49:23,719 Speaker 3: phone calls. Oh that bloke's Mark. That's bloke going to 950 00:49:23,760 --> 00:49:25,040 Speaker 3: be the first one in the dock. Look at him 951 00:49:25,040 --> 00:49:27,080 Speaker 3: there inciting the right. Well you know what he was doing. 952 00:49:27,600 --> 00:49:29,279 Speaker 3: He's up in his milk crate with a megaphone. He's 953 00:49:29,320 --> 00:49:32,040 Speaker 3: yelling out, cops are tops, starting chance, cops are tops. 954 00:49:32,040 --> 00:49:33,920 Speaker 3: And he's yelling out, right, are you people? We're not 955 00:49:34,040 --> 00:49:36,520 Speaker 3: here to fight the police today. They're white man like us. 956 00:49:37,200 --> 00:49:39,560 Speaker 3: And he starts singing three cheers for the cops and 957 00:49:39,600 --> 00:49:41,759 Speaker 3: then you know, we'll sing Matilda. So I've said to 958 00:49:41,800 --> 00:49:44,680 Speaker 3: the police executive, mate, if this guy gets charged, I'll 959 00:49:44,680 --> 00:49:45,960 Speaker 3: be the first one to give evidence for him. 960 00:49:46,800 --> 00:49:49,160 Speaker 2: Let's not listen to the media hype here. How's this 961 00:49:49,239 --> 00:49:50,279 Speaker 2: blake inciting? All right? 962 00:49:50,920 --> 00:49:52,080 Speaker 1: Is that that's the sort. 963 00:49:51,960 --> 00:49:52,920 Speaker 2: Of garbage that was going on. 964 00:49:53,880 --> 00:49:57,319 Speaker 1: I understand that, but it's also people might say, well, 965 00:49:57,400 --> 00:50:00,080 Speaker 1: let's whip him the crowd up into a frenzy, that 966 00:50:00,080 --> 00:50:02,279 Speaker 1: that type of thing, because I know when I speak 967 00:50:02,320 --> 00:50:05,360 Speaker 1: to people from Middle Eastern background, if they refer to 968 00:50:06,120 --> 00:50:09,120 Speaker 1: that fellow that they look at him, as you said 969 00:50:09,120 --> 00:50:11,840 Speaker 1: in the media, as this Aussie bogan. But there's a 970 00:50:11,840 --> 00:50:12,799 Speaker 1: bit more depth to it. 971 00:50:12,960 --> 00:50:15,000 Speaker 2: Because I say he was portrayed. Yeah, that's what I 972 00:50:15,040 --> 00:50:17,239 Speaker 2: was saying. There was a surf. 973 00:50:16,480 --> 00:50:19,880 Speaker 3: Butt launch, there was all the ninety nine percent of 974 00:50:19,920 --> 00:50:23,000 Speaker 3: the day just people standing and milling around. There's Glenn 975 00:50:23,000 --> 00:50:25,280 Speaker 3: Steele and he's sing yelling in a singing Willson Matilda 976 00:50:25,320 --> 00:50:27,320 Speaker 3: and three cheers for the cops. You don't see any 977 00:50:27,600 --> 00:50:30,400 Speaker 3: footage or imagery of that's all been buried and sliced. 978 00:50:30,480 --> 00:50:36,360 Speaker 4: So the question what is truth? Truth needs to rest 979 00:50:36,480 --> 00:50:41,680 Speaker 4: upon facts and evidence, and we challenge a truth that 980 00:50:41,840 --> 00:50:45,799 Speaker 4: the Shire is a racist part of Australia. And so 981 00:50:46,040 --> 00:50:51,080 Speaker 4: there's a microscopic example of truth. The truth presenter was 982 00:50:51,120 --> 00:50:55,040 Speaker 4: that this character inside a riot. What's the broader context 983 00:50:55,080 --> 00:50:57,240 Speaker 4: and circumstances something quite different. 984 00:50:57,320 --> 00:51:01,160 Speaker 1: Well, Carl, I'll buy into that and say I see 985 00:51:01,200 --> 00:51:03,319 Speaker 1: that image because I'm watching from from the outside that 986 00:51:03,360 --> 00:51:05,480 Speaker 1: see that image, and I'm thinking he would have been 987 00:51:05,560 --> 00:51:09,200 Speaker 1: one of the people running down the street. But you're saying, no, 988 00:51:09,680 --> 00:51:10,400 Speaker 1: he wasn't one of them. 989 00:51:10,640 --> 00:51:12,920 Speaker 4: Said a few things that are unhelpful we're here to 990 00:51:12,960 --> 00:51:15,920 Speaker 4: take the beach back from the labs, and they're not 991 00:51:16,040 --> 00:51:18,840 Speaker 4: our friends and all that. But he was just shirting 992 00:51:18,840 --> 00:51:22,000 Speaker 4: his mouth off. And then three cheers for the cops. 993 00:51:22,000 --> 00:51:25,200 Speaker 4: The cops, the tops, they're like us. He was just 994 00:51:25,280 --> 00:51:27,319 Speaker 4: shirting his mouth off on a milk crate. He wasn't 995 00:51:27,360 --> 00:51:28,400 Speaker 4: inciting a right. 996 00:51:28,520 --> 00:51:30,799 Speaker 1: I suppose because it was such a powder keg. But 997 00:51:30,920 --> 00:51:34,920 Speaker 1: they're the little things that can set people off. But 998 00:51:35,760 --> 00:51:39,640 Speaker 1: the actual day, would you say from because I think 999 00:51:39,640 --> 00:51:42,400 Speaker 1: it's I think we're very fortunate in this country, and 1000 00:51:42,440 --> 00:51:45,040 Speaker 1: maybe not fortunate in the luck side of it, fortunate 1001 00:51:45,120 --> 00:51:48,200 Speaker 1: because of people like yourself keeping this under control. That 1002 00:51:48,280 --> 00:51:51,840 Speaker 1: could have gone really bad that that whole day, And 1003 00:51:51,880 --> 00:51:55,239 Speaker 1: I think maybe just this is just my thought, maybe 1004 00:51:55,280 --> 00:51:58,279 Speaker 1: a little bit of Australian apathy comes into it that 1005 00:51:58,320 --> 00:52:00,359 Speaker 1: you know, you said the day's finished, like, well, it's 1006 00:52:00,400 --> 00:52:01,919 Speaker 1: been a long day, we've been out in the sun. 1007 00:52:01,960 --> 00:52:05,200 Speaker 1: That's time to go home. But I really think I 1008 00:52:05,200 --> 00:52:07,160 Speaker 1: think that was a proud moment in policing, not a 1009 00:52:07,160 --> 00:52:09,840 Speaker 1: bad moment in policing, that we managed to keep and 1010 00:52:11,480 --> 00:52:14,160 Speaker 1: keep the lid on. Potentially a power king because we 1011 00:52:14,160 --> 00:52:16,799 Speaker 1: see in other countries, other countries that are not this 1012 00:52:16,920 --> 00:52:20,040 Speaker 1: similar to the makeup of what we've got here, where 1013 00:52:20,080 --> 00:52:22,520 Speaker 1: the riots just go on for days and days and days, 1014 00:52:22,560 --> 00:52:24,880 Speaker 1: and yeah, a huge amount of properties. 1015 00:52:25,040 --> 00:52:27,680 Speaker 4: Sadly, there are places in the world where different groups 1016 00:52:27,680 --> 00:52:30,439 Speaker 4: of people really do hate each other and it's gone 1017 00:52:30,480 --> 00:52:33,920 Speaker 4: on for decades. We don't hate each other in this country. 1018 00:52:34,000 --> 00:52:38,440 Speaker 4: We might have a disregard around certain circumstances and were responding. 1019 00:52:38,480 --> 00:52:40,759 Speaker 4: There's a bit of a protest, but then we move 1020 00:52:40,840 --> 00:52:43,680 Speaker 4: on generally, that's been our history of protest. 1021 00:52:44,480 --> 00:52:47,960 Speaker 3: It was gary, but there was plenty of place there 1022 00:52:48,000 --> 00:52:49,799 Speaker 3: on the day and we had it in hand. And 1023 00:52:49,880 --> 00:52:53,200 Speaker 3: I just also like to thank the Muslim community and 1024 00:52:53,280 --> 00:52:57,520 Speaker 3: Muslim leaders that on that day were putting the message 1025 00:52:57,520 --> 00:52:59,880 Speaker 3: out to stay away, because I think if a lot 1026 00:52:59,920 --> 00:53:02,480 Speaker 3: of these young Lebanese boys had it turned up, it 1027 00:53:02,480 --> 00:53:05,200 Speaker 3: would have turned into a far worse situation. Yeah, you know, 1028 00:53:05,320 --> 00:53:07,359 Speaker 3: curdos to those guys too for what they actually did. 1029 00:53:07,560 --> 00:53:09,640 Speaker 3: I think, and most particularly we'll probably talk about that 1030 00:53:09,640 --> 00:53:12,040 Speaker 3: in a minute, But that night and onto the next 1031 00:53:12,080 --> 00:53:14,040 Speaker 3: few days as well as that's. 1032 00:53:13,840 --> 00:53:15,600 Speaker 5: When it's very important point. 1033 00:53:16,200 --> 00:53:19,640 Speaker 4: Jamal Reefy, one of the community leaders, he said, when 1034 00:53:19,640 --> 00:53:22,800 Speaker 4: these guys came back from their revenge attacks that evening. 1035 00:53:22,880 --> 00:53:27,240 Speaker 4: We were making it clear they were criminals, they're not heroes, 1036 00:53:27,280 --> 00:53:29,640 Speaker 4: they're not speaking on our behalf. And he said that 1037 00:53:29,719 --> 00:53:32,040 Speaker 4: message went right through the community. 1038 00:53:31,600 --> 00:53:34,200 Speaker 1: And that that makes a world of difference, doesn't it. 1039 00:53:34,760 --> 00:53:37,759 Speaker 1: So from and I'll take it to the personal point 1040 00:53:37,800 --> 00:53:40,279 Speaker 1: of view with you guys, and then we'll move on 1041 00:53:40,520 --> 00:53:44,719 Speaker 1: into the revenge attacks in the second part. How at 1042 00:53:44,719 --> 00:53:47,040 Speaker 1: the end of the day, mark, I know when I've 1043 00:53:47,080 --> 00:53:50,560 Speaker 1: been involved in big operations, but not on that magnitude. 1044 00:53:50,600 --> 00:53:53,680 Speaker 1: But you've got nothing left in the team and you 1045 00:53:53,680 --> 00:53:56,320 Speaker 1: get home and you go, what the hell was that? 1046 00:53:56,800 --> 00:53:59,840 Speaker 1: How did you feel after that day? Did you you 1047 00:54:00,080 --> 00:54:02,600 Speaker 1: o the bed? If you went the bed but had 1048 00:54:02,600 --> 00:54:07,239 Speaker 1: a sense of achievement that you three am that day? 1049 00:54:07,560 --> 00:54:09,920 Speaker 3: That day turned into weeks with me with no slip, 1050 00:54:10,480 --> 00:54:13,240 Speaker 3: As I said, you know that, look the daytime events 1051 00:54:13,320 --> 00:54:15,640 Speaker 3: and I know you'll just talk about the Revenger takes 1052 00:54:15,640 --> 00:54:18,160 Speaker 3: in part two in a minute, but you know, the 1053 00:54:18,239 --> 00:54:20,400 Speaker 3: daytime was just the warm up. To be honest with you, 1054 00:54:21,560 --> 00:54:25,399 Speaker 3: what came from there was tenfold worse when the real 1055 00:54:25,480 --> 00:54:28,680 Speaker 3: pressure started. But it was exhausting because you know, there's 1056 00:54:28,719 --> 00:54:30,279 Speaker 3: all the build up to make sure everything's going to 1057 00:54:30,280 --> 00:54:32,000 Speaker 3: go right on the day too, So it's a lot 1058 00:54:32,040 --> 00:54:34,640 Speaker 3: of preparation and planning. Then there's actual day itself and 1059 00:54:34,680 --> 00:54:38,000 Speaker 3: then you know, what, what what what occurred and we 1060 00:54:38,440 --> 00:54:40,759 Speaker 3: were luckily prepared for it with a big escalation plan, 1061 00:54:41,160 --> 00:54:43,800 Speaker 3: but what did occur then was exhausting to the extreme, 1062 00:54:43,840 --> 00:54:46,520 Speaker 3: and it's been the largest you know, as I said, 1063 00:54:46,560 --> 00:54:50,000 Speaker 3: operation ever run in public order in New South Wales 1064 00:54:50,080 --> 00:54:52,920 Speaker 3: leading that later that week and special sitting of Parliament 1065 00:54:52,920 --> 00:54:54,800 Speaker 3: and I'm sure we'll explore all those sort of things. 1066 00:54:55,040 --> 00:54:57,799 Speaker 1: Yeah, well that's what we'll get into, Carl. From a 1067 00:54:57,880 --> 00:55:01,080 Speaker 1: political point of view, the position you in saw what 1068 00:55:01,400 --> 00:55:05,120 Speaker 1: transpired on that day, were you what were your feelings? 1069 00:55:05,120 --> 00:55:10,480 Speaker 4: And initially seeing the night news, shocked, horrified, and like 1070 00:55:10,600 --> 00:55:14,120 Speaker 4: many I formed the view, this is a racist community 1071 00:55:14,160 --> 00:55:18,440 Speaker 4: that's just gone out of control. Okay, so over the 1072 00:55:18,520 --> 00:55:24,120 Speaker 4: years I've reflected, but certainly when I saw the revenge 1073 00:55:24,120 --> 00:55:27,759 Speaker 4: attacks unfold and the intelligence came in, I could see 1074 00:55:27,760 --> 00:55:30,960 Speaker 4: that was off the charts compared to what even on 1075 00:55:31,000 --> 00:55:34,440 Speaker 4: the first evening was presented to the public and what 1076 00:55:34,560 --> 00:55:38,040 Speaker 4: had been basically daily briefings between Mark and I leading 1077 00:55:38,120 --> 00:55:40,120 Speaker 4: up became hourly conversation. 1078 00:55:40,280 --> 00:55:40,960 Speaker 1: You didn't move in. 1079 00:55:43,000 --> 00:55:44,120 Speaker 5: Might as well if we. 1080 00:55:43,960 --> 00:55:46,880 Speaker 4: Were constantly and what was great, And Marks was a 1081 00:55:46,880 --> 00:55:49,040 Speaker 4: great commander, He didn't mind I was dealing with his 1082 00:55:49,400 --> 00:55:52,239 Speaker 4: local area commanders because things were happening that I wanted 1083 00:55:52,239 --> 00:55:55,640 Speaker 4: to know about. But we were really working hand in 1084 00:55:55,680 --> 00:55:59,160 Speaker 4: glove effectively for weeks, and it was a terrific partnership. 1085 00:55:59,560 --> 00:56:02,719 Speaker 4: But it was quite shocking. And when you look at 1086 00:56:02,719 --> 00:56:07,640 Speaker 4: the videos, it is shocking. Yeah, but it's not the truth. Yes, 1087 00:56:07,680 --> 00:56:12,120 Speaker 4: it happened. Those images are real, they're not fake, but 1088 00:56:12,239 --> 00:56:15,760 Speaker 4: how they were spliced together gives a fake truth. Okay, 1089 00:56:16,320 --> 00:56:19,600 Speaker 4: that's and that's a difficult argument to try and present 1090 00:56:19,680 --> 00:56:22,880 Speaker 4: to people that the images are real, but it presents 1091 00:56:22,920 --> 00:56:26,480 Speaker 4: a story that doesn't explain the wider context in which 1092 00:56:26,560 --> 00:56:31,480 Speaker 4: they sit and the simplest thing. First, these are a 1093 00:56:31,520 --> 00:56:34,200 Speaker 4: small number of events that happened over a short period 1094 00:56:34,200 --> 00:56:37,960 Speaker 4: of time, in an eight hour period. Secondly, not a 1095 00:56:38,000 --> 00:56:41,320 Speaker 4: fraction as bad as what followed over the next several days, 1096 00:56:41,480 --> 00:56:44,799 Speaker 4: which is unrecorded. Okay, so don't point the finger at 1097 00:56:44,840 --> 00:56:48,520 Speaker 4: one community because of that presentation, you're not hearing or 1098 00:56:48,560 --> 00:56:49,640 Speaker 4: seeing both sides of us. 1099 00:56:49,719 --> 00:56:52,240 Speaker 1: Well, I see in your book. You've gone the great 1100 00:56:52,320 --> 00:56:56,120 Speaker 1: deal of effort to make sure you're getting versions from 1101 00:56:56,200 --> 00:56:59,200 Speaker 1: all different sides and reporting on the truth. And I'm 1102 00:56:59,480 --> 00:57:02,760 Speaker 1: a big one for the truth is what should stand. 1103 00:57:02,840 --> 00:57:06,120 Speaker 1: It's not the images or whatever. What's the story behind it? 1104 00:57:06,400 --> 00:57:08,560 Speaker 1: Where are the real facts? I just want to before 1105 00:57:08,560 --> 00:57:11,359 Speaker 1: we finish part one, touch on something that I think, 1106 00:57:11,760 --> 00:57:14,839 Speaker 1: even in adversity, some good comes from it. And who 1107 00:57:14,920 --> 00:57:18,600 Speaker 1: was our mate, the big fella, Craig Campbell willing his 1108 00:57:18,680 --> 00:57:21,480 Speaker 1: baton called Milo. 1109 00:57:21,600 --> 00:57:22,760 Speaker 5: I love Craig Campbell. 1110 00:57:22,920 --> 00:57:25,840 Speaker 1: Yeah, well, he's a hero of the rights. I think 1111 00:57:25,920 --> 00:57:28,040 Speaker 1: that a lot of people look at that's the type 1112 00:57:28,040 --> 00:57:30,919 Speaker 1: of police we need in that situation. That's doing your job, 1113 00:57:31,000 --> 00:57:33,560 Speaker 1: standing up when you really need to need to do 1114 00:57:33,600 --> 00:57:35,680 Speaker 1: your job. And he was very willing in what he did. 1115 00:57:36,440 --> 00:57:39,600 Speaker 1: But my observation, because I was in the tactical response 1116 00:57:39,640 --> 00:57:43,520 Speaker 1: group Rights and that type of thing, it needed that 1117 00:57:43,600 --> 00:57:47,160 Speaker 1: response at that time, literally saving those people's lives, the 1118 00:57:47,200 --> 00:57:50,720 Speaker 1: two young fellas lives needed that type of reaction. But 1119 00:57:50,800 --> 00:57:53,480 Speaker 1: he fell on hard times after. 1120 00:57:53,280 --> 00:57:54,320 Speaker 5: It really awful. 1121 00:57:54,360 --> 00:57:58,920 Speaker 4: But he's a classic case of proportionate use of force 1122 00:57:59,480 --> 00:58:02,120 Speaker 4: by a law enforcement officer. Even in the interview when 1123 00:58:02,160 --> 00:58:05,720 Speaker 4: he said he'd got into Intel on the radio. He 1124 00:58:06,600 --> 00:58:09,360 Speaker 4: shot up there with a colleague, jumped out of the car. 1125 00:58:09,440 --> 00:58:11,920 Speaker 4: He could see what was happening, and he said, I 1126 00:58:11,960 --> 00:58:14,640 Speaker 4: didn't have any capsicum spray because I'd already used it 1127 00:58:14,680 --> 00:58:16,680 Speaker 4: earlier in the day, and I was sure as hell 1128 00:58:16,760 --> 00:58:18,520 Speaker 4: wasn't going to pull the gun out my gun out 1129 00:58:18,520 --> 00:58:20,880 Speaker 4: of its holster. All I had was the baton, So 1130 00:58:20,920 --> 00:58:22,400 Speaker 4: he said, I started swinging. 1131 00:58:22,880 --> 00:58:23,080 Speaker 2: Now. 1132 00:58:23,120 --> 00:58:27,080 Speaker 4: It was a proportionate response to a very violent situation 1133 00:58:27,240 --> 00:58:30,000 Speaker 4: of a large number of youths. And you can see 1134 00:58:30,040 --> 00:58:33,840 Speaker 4: the respect of the police even in these violent individuals. 1135 00:58:33,840 --> 00:58:36,400 Speaker 4: They weren't there to take the cops on and when 1136 00:58:36,440 --> 00:58:40,480 Speaker 4: they saw Craig Campbell confronting them with a baton, they 1137 00:58:40,600 --> 00:58:43,280 Speaker 4: pulled their heads in and pulled away, and he could 1138 00:58:43,320 --> 00:58:47,520 Speaker 4: rescue them. But he was recommended for an award never given, 1139 00:58:47,760 --> 00:58:51,520 Speaker 4: then accused of using excessive force and humiliated out of 1140 00:58:51,560 --> 00:58:54,520 Speaker 4: his police career. That was outrageous. 1141 00:58:54,640 --> 00:58:56,000 Speaker 1: It's a sad story, isn't it. 1142 00:58:56,560 --> 00:58:59,560 Speaker 4: He did fall on hard times and the Muslim community 1143 00:59:00,120 --> 00:59:02,040 Speaker 4: ran a couple of fundraisers. 1144 00:59:01,520 --> 00:59:04,640 Speaker 1: That's the point I wanted to make, And that's like 1145 00:59:04,880 --> 00:59:07,560 Speaker 1: I'm reading through the book, And yeah, I don't think 1146 00:59:07,560 --> 00:59:10,200 Speaker 1: there's many people that wouldn't have that image bettered in 1147 00:59:10,240 --> 00:59:12,760 Speaker 1: their mind at some stage. It's such an iconic image 1148 00:59:12,920 --> 00:59:15,480 Speaker 1: and wondering what actually happened to him, and I was 1149 00:59:15,480 --> 00:59:18,200 Speaker 1: sad to see that what the way he was treated 1150 00:59:18,200 --> 00:59:21,520 Speaker 1: and fell on hard times. Even in your book, I 1151 00:59:21,520 --> 00:59:25,240 Speaker 1: think he mentions that he started going to Vinnie's, Saint Vincent's. 1152 00:59:25,280 --> 00:59:29,120 Speaker 4: But there's a good end story mark what did you 1153 00:59:29,240 --> 00:59:31,640 Speaker 4: do and what did we do at the book launch? 1154 00:59:31,760 --> 00:59:36,040 Speaker 3: Yeah, look, Craig, undoubtedly Craig Campbell is that it's the 1155 00:59:36,080 --> 00:59:36,840 Speaker 3: era of the riots. 1156 00:59:36,880 --> 00:59:38,720 Speaker 2: In my view, he stood up when it counted. 1157 00:59:39,280 --> 00:59:41,960 Speaker 3: You know, he stood up and he protected those young 1158 00:59:42,040 --> 00:59:44,440 Speaker 3: Lebanese boys on the train and you know, I think 1159 00:59:44,480 --> 00:59:46,680 Speaker 3: they could have even been possibly even killed, the amount 1160 00:59:46,680 --> 00:59:51,600 Speaker 3: of fists and it was getting crowned, absolutely disgusting, disgraceful. 1161 00:59:51,080 --> 00:59:53,440 Speaker 2: Behavior, and he stood up when it counted. 1162 00:59:53,600 --> 00:59:56,560 Speaker 3: And I remember that night in the command post, the 1163 00:59:56,560 --> 00:59:59,880 Speaker 3: commissioner had turned up. The commissioner said to him because 1164 00:59:59,880 --> 01:00:01,120 Speaker 3: he I wanted to know who it was and that 1165 01:00:01,200 --> 01:00:04,480 Speaker 3: imagery they've just seen on the toe. He said to 1166 01:00:04,520 --> 01:00:06,840 Speaker 3: him something, I should put you in charge of my 1167 01:00:07,200 --> 01:00:11,360 Speaker 3: Baton's Training unit Weapons training unit, and then he was 1168 01:00:11,400 --> 01:00:16,160 Speaker 3: recommended by me and up the chain through his local 1169 01:00:16,160 --> 01:00:20,920 Speaker 3: commander for a commissioner's commendation, which he should have been awarded, undoubtedly, 1170 01:00:20,960 --> 01:00:23,400 Speaker 3: but should have been awarded. I don't know to this 1171 01:00:23,480 --> 01:00:27,640 Speaker 3: day why it hasn't been. But he tells me that 1172 01:00:27,760 --> 01:00:31,960 Speaker 3: he was accused by superiors of using excessive force and 1173 01:00:32,080 --> 01:00:34,320 Speaker 3: driven out of the workplace and to a point where 1174 01:00:34,320 --> 01:00:38,760 Speaker 3: he had a mental breakdown. And then he was on 1175 01:00:38,840 --> 01:00:42,120 Speaker 3: the streets literally because he's not a preadiator, he's a 1176 01:00:42,160 --> 01:00:44,520 Speaker 3: post eighty eight employee, which is a different super fund. 1177 01:00:45,160 --> 01:00:47,800 Speaker 3: And he was really struggling, and he'll admit that now, 1178 01:00:48,040 --> 01:00:51,400 Speaker 3: but he was literally garn A sin Vincent's to Paul's 1179 01:00:51,120 --> 01:00:55,800 Speaker 3: for food. And then the Muslim community found out about this, 1180 01:00:56,560 --> 01:00:59,080 Speaker 3: and despite the fact that his own organization that he 1181 01:00:59,160 --> 01:01:02,280 Speaker 3: showed so much loyal had treated him like that and 1182 01:01:02,320 --> 01:01:05,040 Speaker 3: turned their back on him, the Muslim community stood up 1183 01:01:05,040 --> 01:01:08,080 Speaker 3: and they ran quite a number of fundraisers for him 1184 01:01:08,120 --> 01:01:11,080 Speaker 3: and sporting events and so forth, and you know what, 1185 01:01:11,120 --> 01:01:13,680 Speaker 3: they were very highly attended and a lot of people 1186 01:01:13,720 --> 01:01:16,000 Speaker 3: chipped in, and he wouldn't be where he used today, 1187 01:01:16,000 --> 01:01:18,760 Speaker 3: and he's re established his life right north, and he's 1188 01:01:18,800 --> 01:01:20,160 Speaker 3: going pretty good, and I check on with him. 1189 01:01:20,200 --> 01:01:22,000 Speaker 2: I check in on with him on a regular basis. 1190 01:01:22,280 --> 01:01:27,240 Speaker 3: But when we did our book launch, the minute seems 1191 01:01:27,240 --> 01:01:30,160 Speaker 3: that the Commissioner's commendation was never awarded. 1192 01:01:30,480 --> 01:01:31,680 Speaker 2: I still don't know to this date. 1193 01:01:31,800 --> 01:01:33,720 Speaker 3: During the writing of this book, the Minister and I 1194 01:01:33,800 --> 01:01:36,360 Speaker 3: applied under a thread of information for the. 1195 01:01:36,240 --> 01:01:38,360 Speaker 2: Police file on that we were denied. 1196 01:01:38,040 --> 01:01:43,520 Speaker 1: Access secret police business, national security, national security like that. 1197 01:01:44,720 --> 01:01:45,880 Speaker 2: And I find it horrifying. 1198 01:01:45,920 --> 01:01:48,400 Speaker 3: And I think, after we've finished all lest we're going 1199 01:01:48,440 --> 01:01:50,360 Speaker 3: to pursue this again, and I'll put them on notice 1200 01:01:50,360 --> 01:01:52,840 Speaker 3: of that because I'll not rest on this matter because 1201 01:01:52,840 --> 01:01:55,840 Speaker 3: he should have been awarded that and every single police 1202 01:01:55,840 --> 01:01:59,000 Speaker 3: officer in person in Arabic and Caucasian community that I've 1203 01:01:59,000 --> 01:02:05,080 Speaker 3: spoken to belief too. And anyway, so yeah, he's at 1204 01:02:05,120 --> 01:02:08,200 Speaker 3: Parliament House. He didn't know, but we stood him up 1205 01:02:08,200 --> 01:02:11,200 Speaker 3: and we awarded We awarded him the Police Minister, former 1206 01:02:11,200 --> 01:02:16,160 Speaker 3: police Minister and former police awarded him a nice award 1207 01:02:16,160 --> 01:02:19,080 Speaker 3: from us for his bravery encourage the shade on the day. 1208 01:02:19,000 --> 01:02:23,080 Speaker 1: That good on you and well done to both of 1209 01:02:23,120 --> 01:02:26,080 Speaker 1: you for standing up on what you believe it's interesting. 1210 01:02:26,240 --> 01:02:28,280 Speaker 4: I've had a couple of friends who've read the book 1211 01:02:28,640 --> 01:02:29,520 Speaker 4: and they've dropped me. 1212 01:02:29,560 --> 01:02:31,880 Speaker 5: Note, said Craig Campbell. Is he okay? 1213 01:02:32,400 --> 01:02:36,040 Speaker 4: And what's a wonderful process of the book when those 1214 01:02:36,080 --> 01:02:39,240 Speaker 4: sort of human interest stories are taken up by people 1215 01:02:39,320 --> 01:02:43,080 Speaker 4: such as yourselves and others and understand it was disgraceful 1216 01:02:43,120 --> 01:02:48,160 Speaker 4: what happened to him. It's it's a nice story. I 1217 01:02:48,160 --> 01:02:50,200 Speaker 4: don't think he minds me saying he was in tears 1218 01:02:50,200 --> 01:02:53,120 Speaker 4: as he got the award, and he bought himself a 1219 01:02:53,120 --> 01:02:57,760 Speaker 4: new suit and looked fabulous, and a lot of people 1220 01:02:57,800 --> 01:03:00,760 Speaker 4: said it was a terrific thing that I did, which 1221 01:03:00,760 --> 01:03:02,280 Speaker 4: I think it was, but we shouldn't have had to 1222 01:03:02,280 --> 01:03:02,480 Speaker 4: do it. 1223 01:03:02,480 --> 01:03:04,400 Speaker 1: Shouldn't have to do it. I like the fact that 1224 01:03:04,440 --> 01:03:07,800 Speaker 1: the Muslim community have put their arm around him, around 1225 01:03:07,840 --> 01:03:10,280 Speaker 1: him too. And I'd go as far as to say, 1226 01:03:10,440 --> 01:03:12,520 Speaker 1: and this is where we're talking about the powder keg 1227 01:03:12,560 --> 01:03:16,680 Speaker 1: of that day the eleventh, that if those kids were killed, 1228 01:03:17,120 --> 01:03:19,960 Speaker 1: could you imagine trying to keep a lid on what 1229 01:03:20,080 --> 01:03:23,200 Speaker 1: went on then? So his actions and I don't think 1230 01:03:23,200 --> 01:03:27,480 Speaker 1: you're stretching the truth there at all, that his actions 1231 01:03:27,520 --> 01:03:30,520 Speaker 1: may have prevented those guys being killed. If they were killed, 1232 01:03:30,520 --> 01:03:33,040 Speaker 1: could you imagine how you would have had to try 1233 01:03:33,040 --> 01:03:34,640 Speaker 1: and keep a lid on the situation there. 1234 01:03:34,840 --> 01:03:36,880 Speaker 4: You guys are closer to this than I am. But 1235 01:03:36,920 --> 01:03:40,840 Speaker 4: we've all heard of the one inch punch, the coward punch. 1236 01:03:41,000 --> 01:03:43,640 Speaker 4: I mean, here was what a bunch of guys held 1237 01:03:43,640 --> 01:03:47,640 Speaker 4: bent on causing harm. It wouldn't have taken much, uncontrolled 1238 01:03:47,680 --> 01:03:50,080 Speaker 4: by Craig Campbell, for those two to have been killed. 1239 01:03:50,080 --> 01:03:52,840 Speaker 4: And you're right, Goodness knows where that might have gone. 1240 01:03:53,160 --> 01:03:56,680 Speaker 1: Okay, well, how about we end part one and come back. 1241 01:03:56,720 --> 01:03:59,720 Speaker 1: And I'm finding the chat fascinating, guys, And when we 1242 01:03:59,760 --> 01:04:03,960 Speaker 1: come we'll talk about the aftermath or the Revenger taxes 1243 01:04:04,000 --> 01:04:06,640 Speaker 1: we refer to them, and the type of situations that 1244 01:04:06,680 --> 01:04:08,760 Speaker 1: you're dealing with, and the intel that was coming in 1245 01:04:08,800 --> 01:04:10,960 Speaker 1: and the potential powder keg that you were sitting on, 1246 01:04:11,360 --> 01:04:13,240 Speaker 1: not just on that day but for a number of 1247 01:04:13,320 --> 01:04:14,120 Speaker 1: weeks past. 1248 01:04:14,320 --> 01:04:14,640 Speaker 5: Thank you,