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Speaker 1: From the Australian. Here's what's on the front. I'm Claire Harvey.

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Speaker 1: It's Monday, February sixteen, twenty twenty six. They've been outlawed,

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Speaker 1: but the neo Nazis and Islamist group his book to

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Speaker 1: Rear are back in action, the Australians revealing today the

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Speaker 1: National Socialist Network, which claimed it was fully disbanded, is

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Speaker 1: telling its black clad would be Nazi troops to join

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Speaker 1: the anti immigration March for Australia movement. His book to

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Speaker 1: Reassigned a joint statement with mainstream Muslim community groups expressing

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Speaker 1: outrage about police tactics at last week's anti Israel protest

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Speaker 1: in Sydney. That's an exclusive live now at the Australian

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Speaker 1: dot com dot Au. Preparations for the four month trial

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Speaker 1: of former broadcaster Alan Jones, who's fighting in decent assault chargers,

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Speaker 1: have been rocked by a complaint from one of the

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Speaker 1: alleged victims about phone calls from someone purporting to be

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Speaker 1: a journalist from the Sydney Morning Herald. The tabloid's owner

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Speaker 1: Nine Entertainment denies it was them. Today, Media Diary editor

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Speaker 1: Steve Jackson joins us to talk about the Jones trial,

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Speaker 1: a very messy dispute between two top legal figures, and

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Speaker 1: why terrorism investigators are interested in internal communications at the

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Speaker 1: ABC and SBS. Jacko's here in just a moment, Steve

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Speaker 1: Jackson edits The Australian's Media Diary and Jacko today you're

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Speaker 1: reporting on a twist in their ongoing Alan Jones legal saga.

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Speaker 1: What's happening?

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Speaker 2: That's right, Claire. There's already been so many twists and

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Speaker 2: turns and we haven't even got to the trial yet.

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Speaker 2: What I've discovered is that there are now complaints that

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Speaker 2: witnesses who are expected to be called in Allen Jones's

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Speaker 2: defense have been contacted by someone purporting to be a

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Speaker 2: tabloid journalist and asked questions about the evidence that they're

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Speaker 2: going to give. Now. Of course, as you know, it's

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Speaker 2: not illegal for journalists to do this, but there's a

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Speaker 2: real gray area when that becomes a feeling of intimidation

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Speaker 2: or a scare tactic, whether or not that's the intent

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Speaker 2: of the journalist, it's the way that at least one

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Speaker 2: witness has taken it. And I can reveal that one

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Speaker 2: witness at least has gone to the detectives who've led

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Speaker 2: this investigation and charged mister Jones, and said that they

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Speaker 2: feel as though there's this pressure being put on them

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Speaker 2: by the media and that they're being told that they're

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Speaker 2: being watched.

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Speaker 1: The person who made these phone calls allegedly described themselves

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Speaker 1: as working for nines tabloid newspaper The Sydney Morning Herald,

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Speaker 1: which has published several stories containing allegations against Jones, all

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Speaker 1: of which he has denied. Nine denied any of its

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Speaker 1: journalists had intimidated any witness, What if anything are you

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Speaker 1: reporting about who this journalist might be?

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Speaker 2: Look to be fair, we don't even know it's a journalist.

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Speaker 2: As I say, it's not illegal if a journalist has

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Speaker 2: done it, but it could just be someone who is

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Speaker 2: purporting to be a journalist. And for at least one witness,

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Speaker 2: this has been too much a lot of stress, and

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Speaker 2: they've gone to the authorities and said this is really uncool.

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Speaker 2: How do they know I'm being called? And why are

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Speaker 2: they contacting me? Are they just calling and asking for

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Speaker 2: details as a journalist could and should do or is

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Speaker 2: it something murkier? And in at least one instance, one

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Speaker 2: of the witness says they feel as though it's murkier.

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Speaker 1: Often when criminal matters come to court. The witnesses are civilians.

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Speaker 1: They've never encountered the court process before. They've also never

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Speaker 1: encountered the media before. And we know that the wheels

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Speaker 1: of justice turned very slowly, particularly at this low level court,

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Speaker 1: the local court where Alan Jones trial will be held.

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Speaker 1: There's a huge number of matters going through those courts

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Speaker 1: all the time. It takes a lot of dedication from

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Speaker 1: police to keep witnesses in the case, don't they because

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Speaker 1: if they feel the stress, often witnesses just want to

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Speaker 1: drop out.

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Speaker 2: Well exactly because even if you're not being accused of anything,

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Speaker 2: the whole court process is extremely stressful. It's marginally more

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Speaker 2: stressful than turning up on your podcast and being interrogated,

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Speaker 2: you know, like what are they going to ask me?

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Speaker 2: Are they going to accuse me of any any wrongdoing?

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Speaker 2: And it's hard for witnesses to remember sometimes they're not

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Speaker 2: being accused of anything. They're just there to tell the

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Speaker 2: honest truth about what they remember. But it's a very

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Speaker 2: stressful process. We know the last year I've already reported

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Speaker 2: they were told basically you could be called at any

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Speaker 2: point for four months from August, so block that out

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Speaker 2: because we also know that when they tell witnesses, hey,

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Speaker 2: you're going to be called next Tuesday, delays happen quite regularly.

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Speaker 2: Evidence runs long and they end up sitting around for days.

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Speaker 2: So there's a four month window where they've all been

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Speaker 2: told reserved. This time. We know that the prosecution's calling

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Speaker 2: one hundred and thirty nine or up to one hundred

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Speaker 2: and thirty nine witnesses. We know from Brian Wrench, who's

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Speaker 2: Allen Jones's lawyer, said that there are eight witnesses that

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Speaker 2: they say will help defend Allen Jones by saying that

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Speaker 2: they didn't see anything. Whether or not not seeing anything

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Speaker 2: actually proves anything, that's a different question. But again it

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Speaker 2: is a very stressful experience and you can see why

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Speaker 2: they're jumping at shadows.

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Speaker 1: Another arm of nine nine radio is the subject of

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Speaker 1: a really gripping story in the New South Wales court

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Speaker 1: system too. This was a leak to ben Fordham about

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Speaker 1: a judge Penelope Was. She's a former senior council, a

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Speaker 1: very respected jurist and lawyer in her own right. Ben

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Speaker 1: Fordham got a leak that she had allowed an accused

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Speaker 1: person to give a welcome or acknowledgment of country in

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Speaker 1: her court. Ben Fordham reported on it, and then subsequently

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Speaker 1: it emerged that she was accusing the Office of the

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Speaker 1: DPP Sally Dowling, of having orchestrated that leak. Sally Dowling

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Speaker 1: the DPP, has admitted that this leak did come from

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Speaker 1: her office. A junior member of staff who she said

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Speaker 1: in a meeting suggested this as an idea and Sally

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Speaker 1: Dowling was busy reading emails and sending text messages and

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Speaker 1: didn't really focus on whether it was the right thing

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Speaker 1: to do or not. It's obviously blown up in her

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Speaker 1: face and it's very embarrassing.

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Speaker 2: Do you need to sorry, sorry, sorry, I'm just busy

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Speaker 2: sending out sending a message, So yes, yes, definitely do that.

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Speaker 2: Whatever you said, go ahead.

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Speaker 1: Sally Dowling has said in a submission to a parliamentary

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Speaker 1: inquiry that she was unaware her staffer was planning to

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Speaker 1: leak the information and never would have approved it if

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Speaker 1: she had known. She said she deeply regrets not paying

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Speaker 1: more attention in the meeting. One of your favorites in

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Speaker 1: the media diary is witch hunts within organizations to find

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Speaker 1: the leaker who's giving you things. You then report on

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Speaker 1: the witch hunt, which is great fun. What would be

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Speaker 1: your advice to organizations you have suffered a leak.

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Speaker 2: My advice would be, don't go after the leaka. It's

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Speaker 2: one of those things that we see quite often. There's

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Speaker 2: one I've got going on at the moment, the story

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Speaker 2: that we spoke about last week about an incident involving

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Speaker 2: a reporter and a cameraman heated words. Don't know if

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Speaker 2: they exchanged, probably one direction, But there is now a

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Speaker 2: witch hunt at Channel seven for who provided me with

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Speaker 2: that vision. And all you do when you do witch

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Speaker 2: hunts for your own staff or say that what they've

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Speaker 2: told people isn't true, is that you're not addressing the problem.

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Speaker 2: If people are leaking against your own organization, it's because

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Speaker 2: they feel that information needs to be told or shared

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Speaker 2: because it's not being addressed internally. And I'd also say

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Speaker 2: it's particularly reprehensible when it's conducted by media companies, because

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Speaker 2: we talk about we will go to court not to

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Speaker 2: reveal our sources. We will go to court unless it's

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Speaker 2: in our newsroom, in which case we'll hunt them down

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Speaker 2: and get rid of them. And I just think again,

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Speaker 2: This is something we've talked about a lot, is when

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Speaker 2: you see that all it happens is that leaker, all

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Speaker 2: of a sudden, all their friends start leaking, and there's

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Speaker 2: it has the opposite effect, you know, you try to

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Speaker 2: get one person next thing, and I've got nine people

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Speaker 2: calling me.

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Speaker 1: It's often very futile. Well, because sources are just like

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Speaker 1: everyone else in the world now, very sophisticated about how

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Speaker 1: they transmit information. You see companies going through the process

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Speaker 1: of analyzing people's emails and then looking at their official

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Speaker 1: company devices to see if they send any text messages

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Speaker 1: or maybe which systems they've logged into recently. Any source

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Speaker 1: worth their salt who is going to take the risk

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Speaker 1: of doing a leak is not going to be using

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Speaker 1: any of those platforms and leaving little fingerprints, are they?

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Speaker 2: The TV networks love this going through people's emails and

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Speaker 2: text messages. It's as easy as the email screenshot on

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Speaker 2: their phone and it's sent Viace signal or WhatsApp. But

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Speaker 2: what we're seeing as a result of this is a

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Speaker 2: lot more editorial staff inside places. And we know from

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Speaker 2: the message that went out at the ABC, hey don't

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Speaker 2: send signal about certain topics that could be covered by

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Speaker 2: their Royal Commission into anti Semitism. We know that by

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Speaker 2: virtue of them saying that it's because all their staff

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Speaker 2: are on signal and at seven they're all on signal.

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Speaker 2: At nine they use WhatsApp, but they're not prepared to

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Speaker 2: send open text messages over their work phone. Is that

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Speaker 2: to protect their sources and it's to protect themselves. And

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Speaker 2: when you're in a situation where your own editorial staff

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Speaker 2: are worried that their bosses are spying on them, there's

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Speaker 2: only one impact that it has on morale, and it's

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Speaker 2: not a good one.

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Speaker 1: Every organization invests a huge amount of money in their

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Speaker 1: computer systems and then in their official communication channels Slack,

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Speaker 1: Google Chat, whatever it is. But then other conversations and

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Speaker 1: this range is from government departments right through to everywhere

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Speaker 1: in the private sector. Everyone is actually talking on WhatsApp

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Speaker 1: or signal or other encrypted apps. The Bondi Royal Commission

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Speaker 1: issued a directive to the ABC and SPS for them

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Speaker 1: to retain all their communications official communications about the news

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Speaker 1: gathering related to Bondi. I mean, that's quite chilling for

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Speaker 1: any newsroom, isn't it.

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Speaker 2: When you're in the heat of the moment, there are

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Speaker 2: things said, and we see it happen time and again

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Speaker 2: that messages that people are sent historically while chasing a

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Speaker 2: story or celebrating getting a story, or.

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Speaker 1: They don't age well.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, they don't age well and they don't get read

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Speaker 2: well in black and white office banter. You know, we

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Speaker 2: talk about gallos humor in newsrooms all the time. We're

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Speaker 2: dealing with a lot of dark stuff, particularly people who

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Speaker 2: do national security, counter terrorism crime rounds. If you're trying

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Speaker 2: to get the best story for your viewers, you'll be

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Speaker 2: excited that, hey, I've got the father of a victim,

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Speaker 2: and you know, should you be celebrating that. It doesn't

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Speaker 2: always translate to the empathy and sympathy that you do

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Speaker 2: feel after deadline, that adrenaline and that pressure. And sometimes

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Speaker 2: it's really unfair because you know, again the way things

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Speaker 2: are read in retrospect. Oh why did I Why did

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Speaker 2: I put it that way?

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Speaker 1: We're going to get accused of being hypocrites here now

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Speaker 1: because we've just been advocating for freedom of speech and

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Speaker 1: complete transparency. But now I do agree there are in

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Speaker 1: newsrooms conversations that you have to have also about the

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Speaker 1: trustworthiness or veracity of sources, like you need to be

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Speaker 1: able to say this person's dodgy. I don't think we

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Speaker 1: should go there with this story. You need to be

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Speaker 1: able to have that conversation to make sure that what

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Speaker 1: you are actually publishing is legit. So that's also a

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Speaker 1: bit of a sobering prospect, isn't it for those kinds

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Speaker 1: of communications to be aired well?

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Speaker 2: Particularly and to your point, like, there are questions that

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Speaker 2: need to be asked, what's this guy's story. He looks

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Speaker 2: a bit dodgy again, doesn't age well. But you know,

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Speaker 2: they're the questions that every journalist or every reporter gets

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Speaker 2: pushed back from their editors or executive producers in television

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Speaker 2: because they want to make sure are we right on this?

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Speaker 2: Are we sure about that? So there's a lot of pushback.

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Speaker 2: And it's not saying that the organization doesn't think it

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Speaker 2: stands up. It's like, you know, let's test it, let's

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Speaker 2: test everything. It's really difficult balancing at for anyone.

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Speaker 1: For me, one of the subtexts of that request from

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Speaker 1: the Royal Commission, which only went to the public broadcasters

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Speaker 1: SBS and ABC, is about antisemitism. Are they having conversations

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Speaker 1: inside those public broadcasters that might reflect the fear in

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Speaker 1: some parts of the Jewish community that they are antisemitic,

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Speaker 1: or that they allow antisemitic attitudes to thrive within their organizations.

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Speaker 1: What have you noticed since BONDI about the reckoning that's

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Speaker 1: happening if there is one in those public broadcasters about

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Speaker 1: the kind of opinion they've been broadcasting.

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Speaker 2: We know that there are some instances that have been

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Speaker 2: referred to the Ombudsman saying, you know there are comments

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Speaker 2: that that shows some level of prejudice. I mean, it's

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Speaker 2: one of those ones that in those newsrooms, specifically because

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Speaker 2: they're taxpayer funded and they are held to an extremely

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Speaker 2: high standard because they have to be impartial, and the

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Speaker 2: expectations because they're effectively public servants, are so high that

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Speaker 2: there is a massive pushback. And we are seeing people

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Speaker 2: like Chairman Kim Williams and Managing Director Hu Mark's focusing

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Speaker 2: on what's being said on social media, and we do

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Speaker 2: see two leaders at the top who are very invested

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Speaker 2: in making sure that those changes do come about.

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Speaker 1: Steve Jackson, thank you very much.

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Speaker 2: Thank you for having me.

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Speaker 1: Steve Jackson edits the Diary in the Australian's Media section

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Speaker 1: every Monday. This week's edition is live right now at

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Speaker 1: the Australian dot com dot au