Speaker 1: The public has had a long held fascination with detectives.
Speaker 1: Detective see aside of life. The average person is never
Speaker 1: exposed her I spent thirty four years as a cop.
Speaker 1: For twenty five of those years I was catching killers.
Speaker 1: That's what I did for a living. I was a
Speaker 1: homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead,
Speaker 1: I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated.
Speaker 1: The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories
Speaker 1: from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw
Speaker 1: and honest, just like the people I talk to. Some
Speaker 1: of the content and language might be confronting. That's because
Speaker 1: no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged.
Speaker 1: Join me now as I take you into this world. Today,
Speaker 1: I had a conversation with former Victorian homicide detective called
Speaker 1: Andrew Stamper. Andrew led some of the biggest investigations in
Speaker 1: the country, including Melbourne's deadly gangland war. Andrew was one
Speaker 1: of the leading investigators of Strikeforce Piranha, a police task
Speaker 1: force that looked into the notorious underworld killings and drug syndicates,
Speaker 1: involving infamous figures like Carl Williams. During that time Andrew
Speaker 1: put away two murderers for the killing of Lewis Kane.
Speaker 1: He also takes us inside the twenty seventeen Lone Wolf
Speaker 1: Flinderstreet attack, where a car was deliberately driven in the
Speaker 1: busy Christmas crowds, injuring nineteen innocent people and killing one person.
Speaker 1: Having spent more than forty years with the police, Andrew
Speaker 1: is a real deal as far as detectives go, and
Speaker 1: he's someone I would have liked to have worked with.
Speaker 1: Andrew Stamper, thank you for coming on I Catch Killers.
Speaker 2: Thanks for having me.
Speaker 1: Well, it's good talking to a former cop, and it's
Speaker 1: really this is the genesis of what this whole podcast
Speaker 1: started about. THO I speaking to people that had worked
Speaker 1: homicide cases. So it's good to get back to our roots,
Speaker 1: so to speak.
Speaker 2: Yep, I agree.
Speaker 1: Yeah, you spent forty years in the in the police.
Speaker 1: What's your takeaway from it? We're looking back now you've
Speaker 1: probably been out long enough to have time to reflect
Speaker 1: on it.
Speaker 2: On my takeaway as it was a privilege, I think,
Speaker 2: you know, someone one of our former chief commissioners said
Speaker 2: you you know you've got a front seat to the
Speaker 2: best best show on Earth and I honestly feel that
Speaker 2: it sometimes in some of the roles I was able
Speaker 2: to do, I feel immense privilege and also a great
Speaker 2: deal of pride as well when I think about the
Speaker 2: people that I've worked with over the years, and you know,
Speaker 2: and knowing how committed they've been to keep in the
Speaker 2: community safe too. So yeah, that's my overwhelming thoughts.
Speaker 1: I like sitting down speaking to people that have spent
Speaker 1: as long as you have in the in the police,
Speaker 1: at the sharp end of the police, and you're always
Speaker 1: in there with your sleeves rolled up doing the work
Speaker 1: that you come away from that. And I think you've
Speaker 1: mentioned the word privilege, and I look back at my
Speaker 1: career and there is a privilege, isn't it.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, I mean, look, probably the same as You've
Speaker 2: got a few bruises over the journey, and I've certainly
Speaker 2: got that, and I know you do too, But you know, holistically,
Speaker 2: it's been a pleasure and privilege.
Speaker 1: The other thing you said, it's like, or you attributed
Speaker 1: to someone else's comment, but a front row seat into
Speaker 1: some of the most interesting things you could possibly find
Speaker 1: yourself at. I often felt that in cases, if they
Speaker 1: were high profile cases, you would think, Yeah, everyone's interested,
Speaker 1: what's behind that police tape? What's going on? What are
Speaker 1: the police doing? And here you are in the thick
Speaker 1: of it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's life in the golfish bowl, isn't it. And
Speaker 2: you know, certainly there's been a number of cases over
Speaker 2: my career where you really feel that you're in the
Speaker 2: Golfish bol and a lot of cases where you're really
Speaker 2: working hard to stay one step ahead of the media
Speaker 2: who are running their own investigations as well. And you know,
Speaker 2: that was a lesson that I learned a number of
Speaker 2: years ago to you know, I hope that's one of
Speaker 2: the things that enabled me later in my career to
Speaker 2: actually work more collaboratively with the media on a lot
Speaker 2: of those you know, those high impact cases.
Speaker 1: Yeah, Well, with the high profile comes a different type
Speaker 1: of pressure, doesn't it when you're heading up an investigation
Speaker 1: or you're involved in an investigation. But I've followed your career,
Speaker 1: there's always interest. When I was in the cops, what's
Speaker 1: happening down in Melbourne and I saw different things, But
Speaker 1: in the times I saw you in the media, you
Speaker 1: always seem to have a purpose to what you were saying.
Speaker 2: Well, I think there has to be and you don't
Speaker 2: just do it for the sake of it, you know.
Speaker 2: And for me engaging with the media, that was either
Speaker 2: the purpose, you know, it was either in community, in
Speaker 2: community information or reassurance or trying to gain some strategic
Speaker 2: benefit for the investigation. And I think that was always
Speaker 2: a challenge early days in an investigation, certainly sitting in
Speaker 2: the position that I did in later years in a
Speaker 2: leadership position there to think how, you know, how we
Speaker 2: you know, how we could leverage that most effectively.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I see it. I see it as as a tool,
Speaker 1: a tool that you know, in the kit that you
Speaker 1: have to solve a crime. You can certainly certainly use
Speaker 1: the media. Your policing career a little bit different from
Speaker 1: most Australian cops because you started your policing career in
Speaker 1: the in the UK. Tell us about that.
Speaker 2: Yeah, five years as a bobby and just to the
Speaker 2: west of London in an area car Wiltshire there, and
Speaker 2: you know that was that was fantastic, you know, I
Speaker 2: grew up in the UK. Albeit, I you know, I'm
Speaker 2: always pains to explain that I am Australian, particularly at
Speaker 2: times such as now in the crickets, but yeah, I
Speaker 2: did five years over there, and you know that was
Speaker 2: very different starting off in the mid eighties where he
Speaker 2: was still on foot. You started off on foot patrol
Speaker 2: and as a nineteen year old, you know, walking into
Speaker 2: people's homes. You know, I'd come from a small village
Speaker 2: in the north of England and suddenly I'm talking to
Speaker 2: people who are twice as old as me and had
Speaker 2: life experience and trying to tell them how to live
Speaker 2: their lives and a lot of early lessons there. You know,
Speaker 2: one of my old sergeants who was a pretty fearsome character.
Speaker 2: You know, he used to give you these old adages,
Speaker 2: you know, like to be a good copy, you've got
Speaker 2: to have more faces in town hall clock and you know,
Speaker 2: that's one thing that's that's stuck with me that you
Speaker 2: really have to adapt your approach or your communication style
Speaker 2: to the person you're dealing with. And that was something
Speaker 2: that really really stuck with me all of my career
Speaker 2: that you know, you've got to communicate with people on
Speaker 2: their level, and that could be you know, talking to
Speaker 2: someone who's a multi millionaire and to someone who's living
Speaker 2: on the straight. But you know, another thing that that
Speaker 2: same sergeant told me is that you know that you
Speaker 2: treat everyone equally. You treat everyone with respect, and you
Speaker 2: know you start off from a position of respect, you know,
Speaker 2: not notwithstanding where they come from or what their status
Speaker 2: is in life. You treat everyone the same. And you know,
Speaker 2: those two things I think have stayed with me from
Speaker 2: from those early days in policing.
Speaker 1: It's good advice, isn't it. That's very much formative views
Speaker 1: those early early times in policing. And you're fortunate enough
Speaker 1: if you get a good mental pointing you in the
Speaker 1: right direction. I think that can shape your whole career.
Speaker 1: The experience you get very early in policing.
Speaker 2: Oh absolutely. And you know I can still quite all
Speaker 2: of those little nuggets of gold that that you know,
Speaker 2: that particular sergeant used to used to drill into all
Speaker 2: of us probation as we as we were at the time.
Speaker 1: Yeah, life is a bobby and you know a lot
Speaker 1: of our perception of what goes on in the UK
Speaker 1: is from the show The Bill. That was a big one.
Speaker 1: That was very much watching the life of life of
Speaker 1: cops walking the boat, not having a weapon, and you
Speaker 1: would quite often it was very much community based policing.
Speaker 1: That was my observation of it one out without without
Speaker 1: the firearm. What were what was the different nature of
Speaker 1: policing that we don't follow that path in Australia. What
Speaker 1: was it about the UK policing that allowed that type
Speaker 1: of policing.
Speaker 2: I think there was a cultural thing, I think that
Speaker 2: society in the UK at that time. And I stress
Speaker 2: at that time because I think it's changed now. There
Speaker 2: was there was guns were were far less common and certainly,
Speaker 2: you know, certainly the crooks for one of the better
Speaker 2: better terms you probably were less less less armed than
Speaker 2: they were here and you know, and there's there's a
Speaker 2: cultural piece to that somewhere, but it was just always
Speaker 2: an acceptance that the British police weren't armed and there
Speaker 2: seemed to be this kind of unwritten code, I suppose,
Speaker 2: between between the crooks and the cops in the UK.
Speaker 2: You know, and I'm talking back in the eighties and
Speaker 2: as I say, things have changed a lot now, but
Speaker 2: you certainly learned to think on your feet a lot more.
Speaker 2: And particularly as I was as a nineteen year old,
Speaker 2: as I say, just green, you know, you know, just
Speaker 2: come out of training school and my first role was
Speaker 2: as a you know, as a community, Bobby. So walking
Speaker 2: around what you know, what we would call like a
Speaker 2: housing commissioner state or you know, you know, a ministry
Speaker 2: of housing kind of a state. And that was you know,
Speaker 2: three shifts, twenty four hours and sometimes on night shift,
Speaker 2: three o'clock in the morning, you're walking around in the
Speaker 2: little winter by yourself. Occasionally some of the some of
Speaker 2: the guys that were driving the cars had come and
Speaker 2: pick you up just to defrost you. And I'll just
Speaker 2: get you in the car and just turn the heter
Speaker 2: on and and uh and just you know, come some
Speaker 2: life back into you and then you know, chuck you
Speaker 2: out because the sergeant to be coming around, and you know,
Speaker 2: the expectation was that you'd be you be on your patch,
Speaker 2: you know, and but yeah, unverwhelmingly, I think it was
Speaker 2: just learning to think on your feet and talk your
Speaker 2: way through situations a lot, a lot more. And that's
Speaker 2: a very important tool here as you know, you know,
Speaker 2: very often I get the privilege of speaking to young
Speaker 2: cops and one of the things I, you know, I
Speaker 2: do tell them is learn to talk to people. You know,
Speaker 2: just have conversations with people. Because in the world the
Speaker 2: way it is now, and particularly with policing where it's
Speaker 2: just I must become a response type profession. Just take
Speaker 2: the time to talk to people. It's one of the
Speaker 2: greatest arts that couples have.
Speaker 1: Well that's a good advice to pass on because it's
Speaker 1: amazing what you get when you do actually sit down
Speaker 1: and talk to people. And this is something that kept
Speaker 1: my interest in policing too. You do get to speak
Speaker 1: to a whole range of people. I was in the
Speaker 1: course of my duties speaking to world leaders and people
Speaker 1: that were living on the streets and flyblay and it
Speaker 1: was but that communication is crucial. And I look at
Speaker 1: all the cops that I respect, they had that ability
Speaker 1: to communicate at different levels and often it breaks down
Speaker 1: that barrier.
Speaker 2: Yep. Absolutely, And you know, and that's something I've always
Speaker 2: I've always prided myself in and just treating everyone with
Speaker 2: respect kind of help me in good stead. I think
Speaker 2: for the forty years that I was doing.
Speaker 1: Okay, before we take you out of the voice and
Speaker 1: bring you crashing into Victorian ployees in some of the
Speaker 1: information just preparing for the podcast, so I see that
Speaker 1: at one point in time, part of your duties was
Speaker 1: protecting a UK cabinet minister high on the r IRA
Speaker 1: hit list. What was the backstory there? That seems like
Speaker 1: an interesting role.
Speaker 2: Yeaholved in just before I came over back to Australia.
Speaker 2: As it was, I did twelve months in a VRP
Speaker 2: protection team for a fellow who was at the time
Speaker 2: the British Minister for Northern Ireland. And you know a
Speaker 2: lot of people forget about about, you know, how serious
Speaker 2: the Northern Ireland issue issue was. And in the in
Speaker 2: the mid eighties or mid to mid to late eighties
Speaker 2: in the UK it was, you know, it's really at
Speaker 2: its highest where we were talking Margaret Thatcher was the
Speaker 2: Prime Minister and yah, there was absolutely not I've lost
Speaker 2: whatsoever between you know, the Irish Republicans and the British
Speaker 2: British government. So that was a really interesting time because
Speaker 2: I was kind of thrust into this really high security
Speaker 2: environment and we talk about going from a non armed
Speaker 2: situation and I then went into a situation where I
Speaker 2: was heavily armed and you know, talking about driving around
Speaker 2: country lanes in range rovers with some serious weaponry as
Speaker 2: a twenty two twenty three year old. So I'd done
Speaker 2: all the firearms training over there, and the threat from
Speaker 2: the IRA was very real. They actually did. There was
Speaker 2: I think three people it was who who were initially
Speaker 2: convicted of conspiracy to murder and this was all the
Speaker 2: time that I was looking after him. And then you know,
Speaker 2: ironically they were acquitted due to comments made by the
Speaker 2: subject that we were protecting, who made comments in the
Speaker 2: media which were deemed a highly prejudicial and and you
Speaker 2: know the cases, you know, they were they were acquitted
Speaker 2: on appeal. So that was quite ironic really that the
Speaker 2: person that we would try to protect screwed it up ultimately.
Speaker 2: But yeah, they were really serious about it, and you know,
Speaker 2: they were highly highly trained, highly affective soldiers. You know,
Speaker 2: they weren't some rag tag army like some street gang.
Speaker 2: They were highly effective soldiers and they did their work,
Speaker 2: They did their reconnaissance and you know, and then the
Speaker 2: reconnaissance team would pass it on to onto you know,
Speaker 2: onto a hit team. And yeah, so it was interesting times,
Speaker 2: you know, just just being in that environment and yeah,
Speaker 2: just was it was actually you know good to come
Speaker 2: to Australia and kind of get out of that where
Speaker 2: things were.
Speaker 1: More related would be very tense. I've done close personal
Speaker 1: prote action in situations like that. But not with that
Speaker 1: threat of the IRA. And as you describe them, they're
Speaker 1: not they're not part time as they're professional and if
Speaker 1: they've got a target, they're going to go after them tactically.
Speaker 1: So yeah, you would have had to be on your taes.
Speaker 1: So is that why you have? I dug deep enough
Speaker 1: to work out why you've come to Australia.
Speaker 2: The look, I mean, I was born here. You know,
Speaker 2: my parents are English, they came over here, went back,
Speaker 2: So I was born here and just always been my
Speaker 2: ambition to come back. So that was really a way
Speaker 2: to you know, to you know, I took on that
Speaker 2: role knowing that I was coming here in twelve months
Speaker 2: time and so that was really you know, nothing to
Speaker 2: do with you know, I wasn't scaping that or anything
Speaker 2: like that, but yeah, it was it was you know,
Speaker 2: it was hairy times as well. Again, as you know,
Speaker 2: you learn something through all of these roles and you
Speaker 2: take that with you during your career and you know,
Speaker 2: so that concept of personal and operational security has always
Speaker 2: been paramount as well.
Speaker 1: I think having done tactical policing myself, I think it
Speaker 1: boted very well for working in criminal investigation when you
Speaker 1: might be doing the tactical stuff yourself at that stage,
Speaker 1: but you had the communication, you understand their capabilities and
Speaker 1: different things, so it's all about getting the experience. Did
Speaker 1: you come over to Australia with the intent to join
Speaker 1: the police?
Speaker 2: Yeah, ok, I'd actually come here on holiday and I
Speaker 2: did all the recruiting interviews while I was here on holiday.
Speaker 2: And they at that time here in Victoria in nineteen
Speaker 2: eighty nine, it would have been a lot of people
Speaker 2: that they just changed the superannuation scheme and so a
Speaker 2: lot of the old timers left under the old scheme,
Speaker 2: and so there was a massive recruiting drive and you
Speaker 2: know I didn't know that, but you know, they were
Speaker 2: pushing people through, you know, very quickly, and unlike today,
Speaker 2: there was a there was a you know, there was
Speaker 2: a vast pool of applicants who wanted to do it,
Speaker 2: which is a different story these days. But yeah, so
Speaker 2: I came here, did all the testing and interviews and
Speaker 2: they said, you know, come back in six months and
Speaker 2: you can go straight in. So I was pretty much
Speaker 2: back within six months.
Speaker 1: Okay, did you get any the credit or allowances for
Speaker 1: your experience or you know, you had to start fresh
Speaker 1: and in the in the academy learned how to march.
Speaker 2: And yeah, and you know I've used this, I've used
Speaker 2: this analogy before. But back at the Academy in those days,
Speaker 2: they still did a thing here which was called fatigues.
Speaker 2: So if you lived in the academy, I don't know
Speaker 2: what it was like at Gulban back in your day,
Speaker 2: but if you lived in the academy, you had to
Speaker 2: have a job and you got allocated a role. So
Speaker 2: it might be picking letter up, it might be washing
Speaker 2: dishes after dinner. And my role was sweeping the round
Speaker 2: about it at the front of the Police Academy. So
Speaker 2: you know, I'd gone from looking after the British Minister
Speaker 2: for noln Island to sweeping the roundabout the front of
Speaker 2: the Police Academy in very quick time. But you know, again,
Speaker 2: out of that, you know, I remember those times and
Speaker 2: the humbling moments where you kind of think, you know,
Speaker 2: we'll just put your head down, just do what you've
Speaker 2: got to do, you know, just keep pushing, pushing forward.
Speaker 2: And you know you learn a lot from those moments
Speaker 2: too that you know, you could actually throw your arms
Speaker 2: up in the air and say I'm too good for this,
Speaker 2: or whatever. But you know, I think you just push
Speaker 2: through and just just think, well, yeah, there's a goal
Speaker 2: at the end of the day, and this is you know,
Speaker 2: this is part of the one of the hurdles I've
Speaker 2: got to jump to get.
Speaker 1: There, most definitely, And it's a good attitude to have.
Speaker 1: It's all learning process. You're paying your dues. I think
Speaker 1: that's very very important in an organization like a police force,
Speaker 1: that you understand that, yeah, just learn your way, learn
Speaker 1: all the things. It might be doing point duty of
Speaker 1: the traffic accident, which is probably not what you're aspiring to,
Speaker 1: but it's all part of the learning process.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, I do stress that they don't do those
Speaker 2: things anymore.
Speaker 1: So we both had a conversation before this and we
Speaker 1: were talking about policing and trying to encourage police because
Speaker 1: the bigger pill you've got, the better people you can select.
Speaker 1: And it saddens me. I see across the country police
Speaker 1: forces are struggling to attract recruits and yeah, it's okay,
Speaker 1: we better not tell them they've got to sweep the
Speaker 1: roundabout if they if they.
Speaker 2: Know, no, not and not to you know, not to
Speaker 2: take away you know how hard the job is. But
Speaker 2: it's very very satisfying and very fulfilling as well.
Speaker 1: Yeah, what what steered you towards the career in detectives.
Speaker 2: I think I've been here for a number of years
Speaker 2: and just did a few different roles in general duties
Speaker 2: or you know, in regional policing, and then one of
Speaker 2: my first postings was was in an area called paran
Speaker 2: here in Melbourne, which is is pretty much next to
Speaker 2: sin Kilda as well. So I've worked at the support
Speaker 2: group it was called at the time, where they did
Speaker 2: a lot of the lower level drugs investigations and you
Speaker 2: know another you know, I suppose middle level crimes, you know,
Speaker 2: I suppose that the ones that the detectives weren't doing,
Speaker 2: and so I did that for a little while. And
Speaker 2: one of the one of the great things about those
Speaker 2: units and still is, is that they're a bit of
Speaker 2: a breeding ground for new detectives. The junior people like
Speaker 2: I was come in, but the sergeants there tend to
Speaker 2: be people, you know, who've been detective, you know, either
Speaker 2: been off at the crime squad's got promoted and then
Speaker 2: are coming into these units. So you're actually getting led
Speaker 2: by people who've got that background. So you know, it
Speaker 2: was a really formative time for me. I think here
Speaker 2: where I decided, yeah, this is what I wanted to do.
Speaker 2: And there's a few those sergeants there that had come
Speaker 2: from the robbery squad and the homicide squad, and you
Speaker 2: kind of just got a taste of those bigger investigations
Speaker 2: as well, I suppose. So that's where it started for me.
Speaker 1: Okay, we're going to jump into your career in major
Speaker 1: crime and being involved in leading some of the country's
Speaker 1: biggest homicide investigations. But before we do, both former homicide detects,
Speaker 1: I think it's important we talk about the impact victim
Speaker 1: homicide has and the devastating that fact it has. And
Speaker 1: there's a ripple effect homicide, isn't it When one life
Speaker 1: is taken, it's not just one life destroyed. There's there's
Speaker 1: multiple lives that are destroyed. What's your your thoughts on
Speaker 1: homicide investigation in general?
Speaker 2: Ah, Look, it's it's it doesn't get any tougher. And
Speaker 2: I think about you know, myself, and I think about
Speaker 2: all the all the other people doing that work, that
Speaker 2: these cases stay with you forever. And I think, ultimately,
Speaker 2: if I look at why I stepped away, at the
Speaker 2: end of the day, I think, you know it just
Speaker 2: you know, there's some title of you know, of carrying
Speaker 2: all that from from over that period of time. You
Speaker 2: just it's just a weight on your shoulders that you
Speaker 2: kind of just want some release from. But I mean
Speaker 2: the reality is, as an investigator in a homicide squads
Speaker 2: in a homicide manner, I should say those those cases
Speaker 2: can take ten years to work through the courts. And
Speaker 2: if you're the lead investigator in those, you carry those
Speaker 2: cases and other cases, you know, so you as you know,
Speaker 2: all your homicide investigators O carry in multiple cases and
Speaker 2: a lot of them can take a long time to
Speaker 2: work through the courts, and you keep that, you know,
Speaker 2: And this is probably one of the things if I
Speaker 2: could actually change anything, or work towards changing something, it
Speaker 2: would be to take the reliance off the individual a
Speaker 2: little bit more. And you know, I'm talking specifically about
Speaker 2: Victoria here. I think there's too much reliance and too
Speaker 2: much pressure put on what we call the informant here
Speaker 2: in Victoria, who are all things to all people. So
Speaker 2: you know, they've got to prepare the case, they've got
Speaker 2: to be the liaison with the families, which is a
Speaker 2: very very difficult, you know, very difficult role the court
Speaker 2: liaison prepare the matter for court, and that goes on
Speaker 2: and on and on. If you get a man at
Speaker 2: the coast of the High Court, then yeah, you look
Speaker 2: at you potentially ten years down the track. That's the
Speaker 2: one thing that I would like, you know, some focus
Speaker 2: to be on and just relieving some of that pressure
Speaker 2: on the individual here. But you know, I think that's
Speaker 2: the hardest part about homicide. I don't think there's any
Speaker 2: other cases, and I've investigated pretty much everything else where.
Speaker 2: They stay with you as long as long as they do.
Speaker 2: And of course it's not just stay with you in
Speaker 2: a technical sense, or it's an emotional sense too, because
Speaker 2: most of us, you know, most of us carry a
Speaker 2: little bit you know with this, you know, and just
Speaker 2: through that dealing with the families day to day and
Speaker 2: these manners, you know, it attaches to you.
Speaker 1: You talked about the pressure on the informant, I know
Speaker 1: in New South Wales and I'm sure it's in Victoria.
Speaker 1: It's just the nature of things and resources are limited.
Speaker 1: Quite often you'd have a big strike force investigating a
Speaker 1: particular murder and then someone's been charged and then Okay,
Speaker 1: well we need to allocate the resources elsewhere and you're
Speaker 1: left You're left there. You used to have a team
Speaker 1: of twenty. Now you've got a team of one or
Speaker 1: two and you've expected to run the matter through the courts.
Speaker 2: And you're expected to help other people with other jobs,
Speaker 2: and you know, and also take on new cases too.
Speaker 1: Yeah, you said in the chat we had the other
Speaker 1: day that in the UK they have a system where
Speaker 1: that what you were saying we should aspire to, they
Speaker 1: had a system in place there where there was a
Speaker 1: little bit less or it was spread around. Once you've
Speaker 1: charged someone, there's more people available to help the matters
Speaker 1: proceed through the courts.
Speaker 2: Yeah. So going back to nineteen eighty nine when I
Speaker 2: left the UK, that there was investigation support teams which
Speaker 2: were generally retired cops. Most cops retire after thirty years
Speaker 2: in the UK, and a lot of them are just
Speaker 2: you know, forty nine to fifty and not ready to
Speaker 2: do nothing. So a lot of them actually finish on
Speaker 2: the Friday is as a as a cop and come
Speaker 2: back on the Monday as an administrative assistance or an
Speaker 2: investigative assistant. And there's not much that they can't do
Speaker 2: that you know, the cop can do is basically only
Speaker 2: the arrest bows that the change. So there was a
Speaker 2: lot of assistance through those areas. You know, looking at
Speaker 2: it practically as a detective, as a as a cop
Speaker 2: on the street, you go out, you make an arrest,
Speaker 2: you bring them back, you'd interview them, then you charge
Speaker 2: them and that would essentially be the last you'd see
Speaker 2: it until it goes to court. There would be a
Speaker 2: whole range of other support services that would put the
Speaker 2: brief together with liaison with the CPS as it is there,
Speaker 2: or the opp as we'd call it here. Yeah, you're
Speaker 2: essentially just a witness on the brief. As the arresting officer. Here,
Speaker 2: it's a lot different you you do the individual does
Speaker 2: all those things. And there's a lot of conversations here
Speaker 2: in Victoria at the moment about bringing back some of
Speaker 2: the retired retired cops and to you know, to do
Speaker 2: some of this work that's been spoken about for a
Speaker 2: long time. I just don't think. I don't think in
Speaker 2: Australia it's it's it's a priority for at the political level.
Speaker 2: I think it's always a conversation is always around police
Speaker 2: numbers and around you know, get more police, get more police.
Speaker 2: That's that's sexy for politicians. Yeah for twelve months. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 2: so you know we're in that cycle again, or we
Speaker 2: will be in that cycle again here very soon. And
Speaker 2: what never gets spoken about was, you know, well, we
Speaker 2: could we could probably do with less police if we
Speaker 2: had more more assistances, more administrative assistance. And they're not
Speaker 2: people that actually have to be swarm police, so they
Speaker 2: don't have to go off and do three months. And
Speaker 2: as you know, there's a body of people out there
Speaker 2: in ex cops who would be prepared to come in
Speaker 2: and if it was just taking statements or putting briefs together,
Speaker 2: that sort of stuff. You know, those are the roles
Speaker 2: where you could actually free up your investigators to actually
Speaker 2: do the stuff that you want them to do. You
Speaker 2: can go out and catching crooks.
Speaker 1: Andrew I think that's an important conversations, something that we've
Speaker 1: touched on previously, and it's usually with the experienced cops
Speaker 1: like yourself, that that is really a way forward. It
Speaker 1: doesn't necessarily we have to increase the police numbers, but
Speaker 1: take a bit of the pressure off the administrative stuff,
Speaker 1: not just with the criminal investigations, but the administration in
Speaker 1: terms of keeping diaries up to date and different things
Speaker 1: that really even and people I think have a misconception
Speaker 1: that and I'm sure you would have experienced this. You
Speaker 1: could be leading a hole profile homicide investigation, and you
Speaker 1: could also be spending a day on the phato copier
Speaker 1: making sure you could FADO copy, getting the brief prepared,
Speaker 1: and doing stuff like that. And I often thought, with
Speaker 1: the experience of experienced officers that we could have people
Speaker 1: assisting in those roles. But there seems to be a
Speaker 1: reluctance to it. But I think it's definitely worth having
Speaker 1: the conversation about.
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, as an example of the major cases you're
Speaker 2: talking and I often used to say, you know, somewhat flippantly,
Speaker 2: when we've made a significant arrest.
Speaker 1: You know, all the fund's over that, you know, the
Speaker 1: hard work begins.
Speaker 2: The hard work begins and putting the brief together. And
Speaker 2: these days it's not just putting the brief together, it's
Speaker 2: the disclosure. The disclosure and in a lot of cases
Speaker 2: is greater than the brief. And you know, and through
Speaker 2: disclosure we're talking about when you know, obviously, just to
Speaker 2: explain to the listeners, when the solicitors get the brief
Speaker 2: and they and put in their disclosure requests or demands
Speaker 2: as they are, you know, or the other material that
Speaker 2: they deem to be relevant or want to assist their
Speaker 2: case has to be prepared and submitted, and in a
Speaker 2: lot of cases there's a lot of redaction and a
Speaker 2: lot of a lot of work got to go into that,
Speaker 2: and generally it's one person doing that again, and that
Speaker 2: can take longer than the brief.
Speaker 1: To put together. Most definitely, I think it's quite often,
Speaker 1: I believe, not just solely, but sometimes use strategically by
Speaker 1: defense barristers and solicitors that you get your requisitions on
Speaker 1: a Friday afternoon and they can be extremely broad, and
Speaker 1: it would be literally going through hundreds and hundreds if
Speaker 1: not more, pages of evidence and redacting certain things and
Speaker 1: gathering gathering information. So look, it's a conversation that I
Speaker 1: think's worth having, and it's good sitting down speaking to
Speaker 1: an experience police officer looking at it, stepping away, not
Speaker 1: involved in it now, but thinking where there could be improvements,
Speaker 1: and just using the experience of retired police officers. That's
Speaker 1: something that I've often said about New South Wales and
Speaker 1: I can only speak with knowledge on New South Wales.
Speaker 1: But when someone retired, they were gone from the force.
Speaker 1: And I had friends colleagues that had retired for whatever reason,
Speaker 1: but they would love to be working two or three
Speaker 1: days a week and it could just be as simply
Speaker 1: as sitting down taking witness statements just to and there's
Speaker 1: a skill set that they've walked away with and we're
Speaker 1: not utilizing that.
Speaker 2: And don't get me started on witness statements, because you know,
Speaker 2: that's probably one of the you know, if I had
Speaker 2: to talk about one of the one of the arts
Speaker 2: of certainly being being an detctive is good witness statements
Speaker 2: and they're very rarely done. And you know, some of
Speaker 2: the some of the more experienced people, if that's all
Speaker 2: you're doing, you know, because as you know, your case.
Speaker 1: Is revolve on your witness witness statements.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so yeah, I'm not submitting my CLV just.
Speaker 1: But just for I know what you say. And we
Speaker 1: look at it. And I was working with strike forces
Speaker 1: and I'm thinking, I know these people are sitting home
Speaker 1: board because they're fanning me all the time since they've
Speaker 1: left the police, and I would love them to come
Speaker 1: in and get this detailed twenty page witness statement covering
Speaker 1: off all the information that's required. But look, we're getting distracted.
Speaker 1: I was going to have the conversation about about policing,
Speaker 1: but let's let's delve into some of the cases that
Speaker 1: you've been involved in. I'd be criticized by the audience
Speaker 1: if I didn't take you to strike a Force or Piranha,
Speaker 1: the Melbourne Underworld gangland killings that certainly played out big
Speaker 1: time and in the Underbelly TV series. What was your
Speaker 1: involvement in that investigation and tell us about what was
Speaker 1: going on at that time.
Speaker 2: Well, I was there at the start, so I'd not
Speaker 2: long been a homicide and I was I was allocated
Speaker 2: to to a crew. My senior sergeant was Pheli Bonymus
Speaker 2: Phil Swindles at the time, and we actually had a
Speaker 2: lot of the unsolved cases on our crew which had
Speaker 2: happened so unsolved shooting murders out in the western suburbs
Speaker 2: of Melbourne, and that it was actually Phil who put
Speaker 2: together a report a recommending a task force be set
Speaker 2: up to investigate these all of these unsold murders because
Speaker 2: there was some commonality in some of the some of
Speaker 2: the identities that were that were that were cropping up.
Speaker 2: And of course you know, now people like Carl Williams
Speaker 2: and as you know, as a as a trooper and
Speaker 2: and then as a boss task forces, you don't you know,
Speaker 2: you don't want us that one up unless you absolutely
Speaker 2: have to. So there was there was, you know, there
Speaker 2: was some resistance at at the early stages, so that
Speaker 2: was knocked back that request initially. And then there was
Speaker 2: a there was a feller by name of Nick Radev
Speaker 2: who was notoriously known as Nick the Russian, which I
Speaker 2: could never understand because he was actually Bulgarian. But Nick
Speaker 2: the Russian was shot and killed in Melbourne in an
Speaker 2: area of Melbourne called Cobert and that was pretty much
Speaker 2: the straw that broke the camel's back. So when that
Speaker 2: happened to happened in a very public place, and there
Speaker 2: was you know, rightfully, there was a lot of media
Speaker 2: outrage about that, and so that was the start of Prana.
Speaker 2: So it was really you know, for any of your
Speaker 2: listeners and yourself, if you've watched the wire, when you
Speaker 2: know it's a bit like setting up setting up the
Speaker 2: task force in the wy you know that you go
Speaker 2: down to the basement with the old you know the
Speaker 2: facts mass. You know, we didn't quite have the walking
Speaker 2: wounded that they had in the in the in the wire.
Speaker 2: But again I always I've always found the startup of
Speaker 2: task forces or strike forces something, you know, it's funny
Speaker 2: and it's it's it's it's got its own culture itself
Speaker 2: in policing.
Speaker 1: I think as well, well, you've opened up my mind
Speaker 1: about some of the strike forces that were started up
Speaker 1: and then to be announced by the senior police that
Speaker 1: we've got the strike force. And then you look around
Speaker 1: and we're still sitting at the same desk. No car, yeah,
Speaker 1: no computers. Well what about staff? We should be able
Speaker 1: to get you some stuff. And invariably you get someone
Speaker 1: that's on long term sick for on holidays.
Speaker 2: He's coming back in six months. Yeah, but you can
Speaker 2: have him.
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, Well it has twigged my memory on on
Speaker 1: those times and that work was chaotic and I would
Speaker 1: explain to people, and the more experienced I got, and
Speaker 1: I was taught by people that were experienced, I couldn't
Speaker 1: the stand when we're starting the strikeforce. When I was
Speaker 1: a young fresh detective, all excited, Why we're worrying so
Speaker 1: much about where are we going to access a whiteboard?
Speaker 1: Why are we worried about computers? Shouldn't we be locking
Speaker 1: up the bad guys? But I came to learn that
Speaker 1: was imperative for the success of an investigation, to make
Speaker 1: sure your fought for everything you could to get your
Speaker 1: strike force.
Speaker 2: White boys were a serious commodity, weren't they, and policing
Speaker 2: in but I do say that Piranha was different in that.
Speaker 2: So our entire crew went up to this task force,
Speaker 2: and then they brought in some other people and some
Speaker 2: great people as well from different areas, from drugs and
Speaker 2: stolen stolen cars. And so that was the start of it,
Speaker 2: and then it multiplied significantly after the murder of Jason
Speaker 2: Moran and a feller by name of Pasquali Barbera added
Speaker 2: add at the Cross Keys Hotel in Pascal Vale. And
Speaker 2: this was the one that happened on an oz kick mourning.
Speaker 2: All the kids are playing playing footy and the two
Speaker 2: deceased in that manner actually loaded their kids into into
Speaker 2: a van and we're just about to leave from memory
Speaker 2: when they were, you know, they were brutally assassinated and
Speaker 2: in public view with all these kids at this junior
Speaker 2: footy morning, and that was the one that just caused
Speaker 2: enormous outrage. And you know, as I've said before, I
Speaker 2: think there are a number of things that are sacrosanct
Speaker 2: in Australian society and kids sport on the weekends as
Speaker 2: one of them, and for something like that to happen
Speaker 2: in that environment, so then there was there was a
Speaker 2: big injection of staff into the task force. As a
Speaker 2: result of that, we probably tripled in number, went to
Speaker 2: a bigger room, got a couple more cars, a couple
Speaker 2: more whiteboards. But yeah, that's when it really took off.
Speaker 1: What was the pressure like then, because I know when
Speaker 1: you're involved in big strike forces like that, it's twenty
Speaker 1: four to seven For each action, there's a reaction. You're
Speaker 1: targeting people, you're keeping an eye that further crimes, and
Speaker 1: it's a little bit different from some homicide investigations because
Speaker 1: you've almost got to be proactive in the way that
Speaker 1: you're trying to prevent further fever crimes happening.
Speaker 2: It was like who's next, So you know, we all
Speaker 2: were allocated an investigation, and then there's homicides that are happening.
Speaker 2: You're looking at those and seeing there's any connections into it,
Speaker 2: and then if there are connections, then there was a
Speaker 2: bit of a negotiation with a homicide squad, you know,
Speaker 2: to release those investigations to the Task Force. So it
Speaker 2: was yeah, that was crazy days really that you kind
Speaker 2: of just every day you were just kind of wondering who,
Speaker 2: you know, who's next. That the crooks on us got
Speaker 2: intoxicated on what they thought was this power that they
Speaker 2: had to do this, And yeah, so that's why, you know,
Speaker 2: I'm really proud of the work that we did. And
Speaker 2: you know, I often get asked about there's obviously been
Speaker 2: some issues over the years where you know, some of
Speaker 2: the tactics that we use they have you know, certainly
Speaker 2: been questioned. But holistically, from my point of view, it
Speaker 2: stopped what was happening and undoubtedly saved lives and you know,
Speaker 2: stop the underworld we're actually trying to run the city.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that is the difficulty of situations like that, Like
Speaker 1: I'm sure the task Force was set up to solve
Speaker 1: the crimes but also prevent further crimes from happening, and
Speaker 1: there's a lot of pressure and you've got to play
Speaker 1: think outside the square in those ways. I think what
Speaker 1: we're alluding to and we don't have to delve into
Speaker 1: it was the solicit that became an informant that's been
Speaker 1: playing out publicly over the past the past few years.
Speaker 1: From it, I look at it, I look at it
Speaker 1: from an investigator's point of view, and I can just
Speaker 1: picture how Chao think that whole time would have been
Speaker 1: down there, and the pressures that were on and the
Speaker 1: people involved in Yeah, you got big personalities in the
Speaker 1: investigations like this and you're getting pulled from pill the post.
Speaker 1: Did you have a specific role, Yeah, well, I.
Speaker 2: Was one of the one of the lead investigators. There
Speaker 2: was a murder that happened after the task force had
Speaker 2: started Fellabono of Lewis Kane who was shot and killed
Speaker 2: out at Carlton and then his body was dumped in Brunswick.
Speaker 2: And there was two too very well known criminal identity
Speaker 2: who I can't name because of active suppression orders. Still
Speaker 2: they were ultimately charged with that. So I was the
Speaker 2: informant in that case, carried that one through know over
Speaker 2: a period of time. But so I was, you know,
Speaker 2: one of the one of the homicide investigators who, as
Speaker 2: I say, we had a you know, we generally had
Speaker 2: an active job, and we had a you know, we
Speaker 2: had you know, other unsolved jobs as well that we
Speaker 2: were looking.
Speaker 1: At without giving away methodology on how they were caught.
Speaker 1: A lot of them have gone through gone through the courts.
Speaker 1: Where did you think that the police was starting to
Speaker 1: get the upper hand on what was going on.
Speaker 2: It was probably the most significant investigation, you know, in
Speaker 2: terms of the volume of electronic surveillance that was carried
Speaker 2: out of a period of time, and again without sort
Speaker 2: of digging into the depths of that, as you know,
Speaker 2: that's you know, that's pretty complicated stuff. It's not stuff
Speaker 2: you get, you know, it's it's hard to get. It's
Speaker 2: a very high bar and justification and then actually managing
Speaker 2: that stuff and when you're talking about the volume of
Speaker 2: you know, of electronic material that we were dealing with,
Speaker 2: some of the people and the scene so never got
Speaker 2: the accolades should be you know, hell up high because
Speaker 2: as you know, managing that kind of you know, information
Speaker 2: and going through it and listening to it twenty four
Speaker 2: to seven is highly challenging. So that was one of
Speaker 2: the big things. You know. Another one was the ability
Speaker 2: of you know, some of our people and again just
Speaker 2: coming back to talking to people, and even some of
Speaker 2: these the people that we were talking to were were
Speaker 2: you know, the hardest, hardest criminals in this country. You know,
Speaker 2: at the end of the day, a lot of them
Speaker 2: you can actually have a conversation with.
Speaker 1: You again, that communication, Yeah, if.
Speaker 2: You actually just give people respect and give them a
Speaker 2: bit of time. And I'm not saying all of them,
Speaker 2: as you know, there's some that you wouldn't waste your
Speaker 2: time on, but you know, some of the some of
Speaker 2: these people are actually you know, you can have a
Speaker 2: conversation with him. There's kind of like a mutual respect.
Speaker 2: So one of the really you know, important things that
Speaker 2: happened during that time was that they actually recruited some
Speaker 2: people and came on board and actually you know, gave
Speaker 2: evidence against their associates. So that was a really important
Speaker 2: part of it as well. And I think that came
Speaker 2: from the quality of a lot of the investigators that
Speaker 2: we had and the team who had those abilities to actually,
Speaker 2: you know, to actually communicate with with you know, some
Speaker 2: pretty serious crooks at the end of the day.
Speaker 1: I don't think you can underestimate that ability for people
Speaker 1: to be able to communicate and cultivate relationships with people
Speaker 1: to get information and we're talking criminal informants here, but
Speaker 1: there's some people that have from law enforcement have a
Speaker 1: natural aptitude for it and it can make a world
Speaker 1: of difference in investigations of that nature.
Speaker 2: It is a bit of a dying art. But you know,
Speaker 2: back in the back in the olden days, you know,
Speaker 2: I talked about the olden days, and you know, in
Speaker 2: the eighties you did actually get out on the town
Speaker 2: a little bit more and talk to talk to people.
Speaker 2: And that's gone now, you know. And for some reasons
Speaker 2: that's a good thing, and you know, for other reasons
Speaker 2: it's not a great thing. But you know, again, I
Speaker 2: think that's just one of the challenges of modern policing
Speaker 2: is how you kind of breage that gap where, you know,
Speaker 2: in teaching our younger people how to actually communicate with
Speaker 2: with with people on the other side of the tracks,
Speaker 2: because a lot of them don't do very.
Speaker 1: Well, No they don't. And we had that was identified
Speaker 1: as a problem in the Royal Commission we had up
Speaker 1: here in New South Wales police and informant relationships and
Speaker 1: all that. But in my time involved post Royal Commission,
Speaker 1: we're very accountable in the communications that we had with
Speaker 1: criminal informants. We had to document it and it was painful,
Speaker 1: like every time you virtually every time you're speaking to them,
Speaker 1: documenting it and all that. It was painful at the time,
Speaker 1: but what I see down the track when it came
Speaker 1: through the courts, it was great. The barristers are things, Okay,
Speaker 1: what's gone here? Is something shocky gone on here? And
Speaker 1: you produce all the records. This is every time I've
Speaker 1: spoken to the informant, this is what the informant told me.
Speaker 1: And moving on from there with the what we know
Speaker 1: is the Melbourne Gangland War, how long did that go
Speaker 1: on for?
Speaker 2: Well, it had started well before Piranha started, so you
Speaker 2: know it would have started in the early two thousands
Speaker 2: and you know, probably for at least five five years
Speaker 2: after that, I would think, you know, it would be
Speaker 2: at least five years and then you know, obviously you
Speaker 2: talk about how things now long things take to work
Speaker 2: through the courts. But yeah, I would say certainly there
Speaker 2: was five years of it with Piranha.
Speaker 1: The task force that was set up. How many police
Speaker 1: were attached to that at its highest.
Speaker 2: Well, I would say we started off with from memory,
Speaker 2: we started off with about ten or twelve in the
Speaker 2: in the very early days, and then it went up
Speaker 2: to about sixty years I think. So it was you know,
Speaker 2: and that's a sizeable task forces, you know, in Australian terms,
Speaker 2: it would have been up around those numbers.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's that's big numbers when it ended. Can you
Speaker 1: put a point on when the war ended, as we
Speaker 1: describe as a war and how many people were killed
Speaker 1: or got the tributed in that course?
Speaker 2: I couldn't tell you.
Speaker 1: I can't.
Speaker 2: I can't recall from from memory. But but pretty much
Speaker 2: everyone either ended up dead or locked up one or
Speaker 2: the other. And you know, certainly in the case of
Speaker 2: Carl Williams, he was locked up and then he ended
Speaker 2: up dead. But that's pretty much, you know. It was
Speaker 2: actually the fact that we locked all the players up
Speaker 2: at the end of the day or they were either
Speaker 2: they'd either already been killed.
Speaker 1: Or they've been killed or been locked up, and they
Speaker 1: probably put an end to it.
Speaker 2: It was.
Speaker 1: It was a fascinating job and it certainly captured the
Speaker 1: attention of the nation. With the Underbelly, the first Underbelly
Speaker 1: series that the played out in it was that up
Speaker 1: and running at the time of the investigations or that
Speaker 1: came after the investigations.
Speaker 2: Well it actually it actually came after the investigations, but
Speaker 2: they started filming that and I was I was again
Speaker 2: privileged to be part of that and actually was was
Speaker 2: given permission within within Victoria Police to actually act as
Speaker 2: the technical advisor to to that show, which was which
Speaker 2: was really interesting. It wouldn't happen, it wouldn't happen now,
Speaker 2: but different times. But that's where I got to know
Speaker 2: a lot of people in that, you know, and in
Speaker 2: the well in the film and television industry, I suppose
Speaker 2: because a lot of the you know, the top people
Speaker 2: in Australian film and television worked behind that, as you know,
Speaker 2: because you were involved in it. And so that was
Speaker 2: really really interesting experience to to be there from the
Speaker 2: start with with Underbelly and to work with the writers
Speaker 2: and the producers from the start of that. And you know,
Speaker 2: I remember one of the one of the greatest takeaways
Speaker 2: I had from that is a thing that I, you know,
Speaker 2: I maintained today is that the truth is truth is
Speaker 2: stranger than fiction. I remember sitting in writers' rooms with
Speaker 2: you know, some of the best writers in Australian television
Speaker 2: and seeing their jewels at the table when we were
Speaker 2: telling them stories about things that had happened, and these
Speaker 2: are ultimately things that made it into into the television show.
Speaker 2: And they were, you know, saying, oh, we couldn't make
Speaker 2: this up. You know that we couldn't. We couldn't, we
Speaker 2: couldn't write this. And that's you know, that's one thing
Speaker 2: that's actually stuck with me. There's a lot of things
Speaker 2: that we see in the war exposed that you couldn't
Speaker 2: make up. So that was really, you know, insightful for
Speaker 2: me thinking that, yeah, a lot of a lot of
Speaker 2: what we do see is actually stranger than fiction.
Speaker 1: It seems. And I think you've got permission to consult
Speaker 1: with the Underbelly. When they did the series on Underbelly
Speaker 1: Badness on the Terry Falcon murder, senior police approached me
Speaker 1: and said, look, Underbelly writers are doing this. We're happy
Speaker 1: for them to sit down speak with you and all that.
Speaker 1: So I had permission also to provide information to them. Sadly,
Speaker 1: about three weeks before it was due to go on,
Speaker 1: they've canceled that permission and I've said, well, you know,
Speaker 1: I've already given all the details. They've followed me around
Speaker 1: it at your direction, and now you're telling me not
Speaker 1: to speak to them, But my experience with it, I
Speaker 1: know in speaking to you, and I got to the
Speaker 1: point where I said, look to the underbelly writers, you
Speaker 1: can't be around while we're working. Step away from it,
Speaker 1: and I'll give you my time after work. And they
Speaker 1: would often say, well, yeah, we're taking up so much
Speaker 1: of your time. I said, that's fine. And the thing
Speaker 1: that helped me get through that was working with creative people.
Speaker 1: I found it refreshing because police is so dark, heavy,
Speaker 1: and you're stuck in this world, and then you sat
Speaker 1: down with the writers and spending time in the writer's
Speaker 1: room as you described, I found it quite refreshing, and
Speaker 1: that balanced out the day to day police work I was.
Speaker 2: I still am in awe of some of those people,
Speaker 2: some of those writers, you know, I have the sort
Speaker 2: of privilege of working with some of them still today.
Speaker 2: And one i'll give a shout out to I know
Speaker 2: he's mate of yours, Greg Hadrick. He's a good friend
Speaker 2: of us. And Greg was one of the main guys
Speaker 2: and his ability to absorb information and then to convert
Speaker 2: that into a script or a story overnight, you know,
Speaker 2: it was it still leaves me, leaves me and if
Speaker 2: his skill and you know, Greg was one of one
Speaker 2: of a number of writers and they were all good,
Speaker 2: and a lot of them had come out of that
Speaker 2: Neighbors and Harme and Away kind of environment where you know,
Speaker 2: there's a constant churn, and I think that was kind
Speaker 2: of where a lot of those riders cut their teeth
Speaker 2: as well, you know, talking about where we cut our teeth,
Speaker 2: you know, just on that constant churn.
Speaker 1: The constant pressure. I was surprised that the depth and
Speaker 1: the team that Greg had and I would fight often
Speaker 1: joke with them that they delve so deeply. I said,
Speaker 1: I need you guys on the strikeforce to work as
Speaker 1: my analysts, like they would dig up things and come
Speaker 1: back with things. But look, it's an interesting experience and
Speaker 1: it's good sitting down speaking to a fellow cop who
Speaker 1: has that experience, because it's something that's rather unique in
Speaker 1: the world of police.
Speaker 2: Well, if I could just say as well, I mean,
Speaker 2: I know you've had experience of this, but in the
Speaker 2: in the in the production phase, so when they're actually
Speaker 2: filming things, you know, one thing that actually just just
Speaker 2: I used to think I wish I could have these
Speaker 2: people working for me doing doing warrant planning because they're
Speaker 2: planning logistics and execution of their plans. You know, everything
Speaker 2: is planned down because you know, time is money, as
Speaker 2: you know, in that industry, and the planning that goes
Speaker 2: into it, the communications and logistics is just it's just
Speaker 2: first rate. So yeah, big shout out to that industry.
Speaker 1: Yeah, interesting experience. We might we might take a break
Speaker 1: here here, Andrew, and when we get back, I want
Speaker 1: to talk about a couple of other cases. We'll talk
Speaker 1: about the brutal rape and murder. You're a dissy Dixon
Speaker 1: stalked on the streets of Melbourne. I'll get your thoughts on,
Speaker 1: get your thoughts on policing, and I'm sure we're going
Speaker 1: to have a lot more, a lot more to talk
Speaker 1: about when we get back. OK. Thanks, cheers,