WEBVTT - Inside Melbourne’s gangland war: Andrew Stamper Pt.1 0:00:01.880 --> 0:00:04.880 The public has had a long held fascination with detectives. 0:00:05.360 --> 0:00:08.039 Detective see aside of life. The average person is never 0:00:08.119 --> 0:00:11.080 exposed her I spent thirty four years as a cop. 0:00:11.560 --> 0:00:14.040 For twenty five of those years I was catching killers. 0:00:14.440 --> 0:00:16.200 That's what I did for a living. I was a 0:00:16.200 --> 0:00:20.560 homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead, 0:00:20.600 --> 0:00:23.120 I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated. 0:00:23.840 --> 0:00:26.400 The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories 0:00:26.440 --> 0:00:28.760 from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw 0:00:28.800 --> 0:00:31.440 and honest, just like the people I talk to. Some 0:00:31.600 --> 0:00:34.640 of the content and language might be confronting. That's because 0:00:34.640 --> 0:00:37.640 no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged. 0:00:38.159 --> 0:00:46.960 Join me now as I take you into this world. Today, 0:00:47.440 --> 0:00:50.840 I had a conversation with former Victorian homicide detective called 0:00:50.880 --> 0:00:54.680 Andrew Stamper. Andrew led some of the biggest investigations in 0:00:54.720 --> 0:00:59.319 the country, including Melbourne's deadly gangland war. Andrew was one 0:00:59.360 --> 0:01:03.200 of the leading investigators of Strikeforce Piranha, a police task 0:01:03.240 --> 0:01:07.399 force that looked into the notorious underworld killings and drug syndicates, 0:01:07.440 --> 0:01:12.080 involving infamous figures like Carl Williams. During that time Andrew 0:01:12.120 --> 0:01:15.679 put away two murderers for the killing of Lewis Kane. 0:01:15.840 --> 0:01:19.959 He also takes us inside the twenty seventeen Lone Wolf 0:01:20.040 --> 0:01:23.640 Flinderstreet attack, where a car was deliberately driven in the 0:01:23.680 --> 0:01:28.080 busy Christmas crowds, injuring nineteen innocent people and killing one person. 0:01:28.880 --> 0:01:31.720 Having spent more than forty years with the police, Andrew 0:01:31.800 --> 0:01:34.399 is a real deal as far as detectives go, and 0:01:34.440 --> 0:01:36.280 he's someone I would have liked to have worked with. 0:01:37.400 --> 0:01:40.360 Andrew Stamper, thank you for coming on I Catch Killers. 0:01:40.560 --> 0:01:41.319 Thanks for having me. 0:01:41.560 --> 0:01:46.479 Well, it's good talking to a former cop, and it's 0:01:46.600 --> 0:01:49.120 really this is the genesis of what this whole podcast 0:01:49.200 --> 0:01:51.760 started about. THO I speaking to people that had worked 0:01:51.800 --> 0:01:55.320 homicide cases. So it's good to get back to our roots, 0:01:55.400 --> 0:01:56.040 so to speak. 0:01:56.360 --> 0:01:57.160 Yep, I agree. 0:01:57.320 --> 0:02:01.280 Yeah, you spent forty years in the in the police. 0:02:01.520 --> 0:02:04.160 What's your takeaway from it? We're looking back now you've 0:02:04.160 --> 0:02:07.360 probably been out long enough to have time to reflect 0:02:07.400 --> 0:02:07.640 on it. 0:02:07.920 --> 0:02:11.120 On my takeaway as it was a privilege, I think, 0:02:11.480 --> 0:02:14.079 you know, someone one of our former chief commissioners said 0:02:14.120 --> 0:02:15.480 you you know you've got a front seat to the 0:02:16.440 --> 0:02:20.360 best best show on Earth and I honestly feel that 0:02:20.400 --> 0:02:23.400 it sometimes in some of the roles I was able 0:02:23.440 --> 0:02:28.359 to do, I feel immense privilege and also a great 0:02:28.400 --> 0:02:30.280 deal of pride as well when I think about the 0:02:30.280 --> 0:02:32.920 people that I've worked with over the years, and you know, 0:02:33.080 --> 0:02:36.480 and knowing how committed they've been to keep in the 0:02:36.480 --> 0:02:40.280 community safe too. So yeah, that's my overwhelming thoughts. 0:02:40.639 --> 0:02:44.399 I like sitting down speaking to people that have spent 0:02:44.520 --> 0:02:46.600 as long as you have in the in the police, 0:02:46.800 --> 0:02:48.600 at the sharp end of the police, and you're always 0:02:48.600 --> 0:02:51.400 in there with your sleeves rolled up doing the work 0:02:51.680 --> 0:02:53.880 that you come away from that. And I think you've 0:02:53.919 --> 0:02:56.440 mentioned the word privilege, and I look back at my 0:02:56.560 --> 0:02:58.240 career and there is a privilege, isn't it. 0:02:58.360 --> 0:03:01.720 Yeah. Yeah, I mean, look, probably the same as You've 0:03:01.800 --> 0:03:04.919 got a few bruises over the journey, and I've certainly 0:03:04.960 --> 0:03:08.679 got that, and I know you do too, But you know, holistically, 0:03:08.800 --> 0:03:11.079 it's been a pleasure and privilege. 0:03:12.160 --> 0:03:15.640 The other thing you said, it's like, or you attributed 0:03:15.680 --> 0:03:19.160 to someone else's comment, but a front row seat into 0:03:19.280 --> 0:03:21.640 some of the most interesting things you could possibly find 0:03:21.680 --> 0:03:26.560 yourself at. I often felt that in cases, if they 0:03:26.560 --> 0:03:30.480 were high profile cases, you would think, Yeah, everyone's interested, 0:03:30.560 --> 0:03:33.720 what's behind that police tape? What's going on? What are 0:03:33.760 --> 0:03:36.000 the police doing? And here you are in the thick 0:03:36.000 --> 0:03:36.240 of it. 0:03:36.600 --> 0:03:38.480 Yeah, it's life in the golfish bowl, isn't it. And 0:03:38.680 --> 0:03:41.920 you know, certainly there's been a number of cases over 0:03:42.000 --> 0:03:44.760 my career where you really feel that you're in the 0:03:44.760 --> 0:03:49.960 Golfish bol and a lot of cases where you're really 0:03:50.000 --> 0:03:53.120 working hard to stay one step ahead of the media 0:03:53.120 --> 0:03:55.800 who are running their own investigations as well. And you know, 0:03:55.840 --> 0:03:57.320 that was a lesson that I learned a number of 0:03:57.440 --> 0:04:00.920 years ago to you know, I hope that's one of 0:04:00.960 --> 0:04:06.120 the things that enabled me later in my career to 0:04:06.200 --> 0:04:09.400 actually work more collaboratively with the media on a lot 0:04:09.440 --> 0:04:13.480 of those you know, those high impact cases. 0:04:13.840 --> 0:04:16.520 Yeah, Well, with the high profile comes a different type 0:04:16.520 --> 0:04:19.880 of pressure, doesn't it when you're heading up an investigation 0:04:20.040 --> 0:04:25.040 or you're involved in an investigation. But I've followed your career, 0:04:26.320 --> 0:04:28.719 there's always interest. When I was in the cops, what's 0:04:28.720 --> 0:04:31.320 happening down in Melbourne and I saw different things, But 0:04:32.520 --> 0:04:34.320 in the times I saw you in the media, you 0:04:34.360 --> 0:04:36.960 always seem to have a purpose to what you were saying. 0:04:37.400 --> 0:04:39.800 Well, I think there has to be and you don't 0:04:39.880 --> 0:04:43.080 just do it for the sake of it, you know. 0:04:43.160 --> 0:04:46.599 And for me engaging with the media, that was either 0:04:47.320 --> 0:04:50.080 the purpose, you know, it was either in community, in 0:04:50.320 --> 0:04:57.440 community information or reassurance or trying to gain some strategic 0:04:58.520 --> 0:05:02.479 benefit for the investigation. And I think that was always 0:05:02.480 --> 0:05:05.359 a challenge early days in an investigation, certainly sitting in 0:05:05.400 --> 0:05:08.120 the position that I did in later years in a 0:05:08.200 --> 0:05:11.080 leadership position there to think how, you know, how we 0:05:11.440 --> 0:05:14.520 you know, how we could leverage that most effectively. 0:05:14.839 --> 0:05:18.000 Yeah, I see it. I see it as as a tool, 0:05:18.080 --> 0:05:20.640 a tool that you know, in the kit that you 0:05:20.760 --> 0:05:23.640 have to solve a crime. You can certainly certainly use 0:05:23.680 --> 0:05:27.360 the media. Your policing career a little bit different from 0:05:27.600 --> 0:05:31.000 most Australian cops because you started your policing career in 0:05:31.040 --> 0:05:33.400 the in the UK. Tell us about that. 0:05:33.880 --> 0:05:36.080 Yeah, five years as a bobby and just to the 0:05:36.080 --> 0:05:38.800 west of London in an area car Wiltshire there, and 0:05:39.360 --> 0:05:41.240 you know that was that was fantastic, you know, I 0:05:41.320 --> 0:05:44.920 grew up in the UK. Albeit, I you know, I'm 0:05:44.920 --> 0:05:49.320 always pains to explain that I am Australian, particularly at 0:05:49.440 --> 0:05:52.360 times such as now in the crickets, but yeah, I 0:05:52.360 --> 0:05:55.080 did five years over there, and you know that was 0:05:55.279 --> 0:05:58.560 very different starting off in the mid eighties where he 0:05:58.680 --> 0:06:02.320 was still on foot. You started off on foot patrol 0:06:02.400 --> 0:06:05.480 and as a nineteen year old, you know, walking into 0:06:05.520 --> 0:06:08.160 people's homes. You know, I'd come from a small village 0:06:08.200 --> 0:06:12.680 in the north of England and suddenly I'm talking to 0:06:12.720 --> 0:06:14.560 people who are twice as old as me and had 0:06:14.600 --> 0:06:16.640 life experience and trying to tell them how to live 0:06:16.680 --> 0:06:20.039 their lives and a lot of early lessons there. You know, 0:06:20.080 --> 0:06:22.679 one of my old sergeants who was a pretty fearsome character. 0:06:22.839 --> 0:06:25.120 You know, he used to give you these old adages, 0:06:25.200 --> 0:06:26.840 you know, like to be a good copy, you've got 0:06:26.839 --> 0:06:29.680 to have more faces in town hall clock and you know, 0:06:29.760 --> 0:06:32.839 that's one thing that's that's stuck with me that you 0:06:32.960 --> 0:06:40.360 really have to adapt your approach or your communication style 0:06:40.600 --> 0:06:44.880 to the person you're dealing with. And that was something 0:06:44.920 --> 0:06:47.520 that really really stuck with me all of my career 0:06:47.680 --> 0:06:50.720 that you know, you've got to communicate with people on 0:06:50.760 --> 0:06:53.760 their level, and that could be you know, talking to 0:06:54.360 --> 0:06:59.760 someone who's a multi millionaire and to someone who's living 0:06:59.800 --> 0:07:02.479 on the straight. But you know, another thing that that 0:07:02.600 --> 0:07:05.120 same sergeant told me is that you know that you 0:07:05.200 --> 0:07:08.600 treat everyone equally. You treat everyone with respect, and you 0:07:08.920 --> 0:07:11.680 know you start off from a position of respect, you know, 0:07:11.840 --> 0:07:15.840 not notwithstanding where they come from or what their status 0:07:15.880 --> 0:07:19.440 is in life. You treat everyone the same. And you know, 0:07:19.520 --> 0:07:22.320 those two things I think have stayed with me from 0:07:22.360 --> 0:07:24.440 from those early days in policing. 0:07:25.520 --> 0:07:28.560 It's good advice, isn't it. That's very much formative views 0:07:28.600 --> 0:07:32.840 those early early times in policing. And you're fortunate enough 0:07:32.960 --> 0:07:35.280 if you get a good mental pointing you in the 0:07:35.320 --> 0:07:38.080 right direction. I think that can shape your whole career. 0:07:38.400 --> 0:07:40.840 The experience you get very early in policing. 0:07:41.000 --> 0:07:44.880 Oh absolutely. And you know I can still quite all 0:07:44.920 --> 0:07:48.640 of those little nuggets of gold that that you know, 0:07:48.680 --> 0:07:52.520 that particular sergeant used to used to drill into all 0:07:52.560 --> 0:07:54.720 of us probation as we as we were at the time. 0:07:55.760 --> 0:07:58.880 Yeah, life is a bobby and you know a lot 0:07:58.880 --> 0:08:01.760 of our perception of what goes on in the UK 0:08:01.960 --> 0:08:04.960 is from the show The Bill. That was a big one. 0:08:04.960 --> 0:08:10.800 That was very much watching the life of life of 0:08:11.520 --> 0:08:14.640 cops walking the boat, not having a weapon, and you 0:08:15.000 --> 0:08:17.640 would quite often it was very much community based policing. 0:08:17.680 --> 0:08:21.160 That was my observation of it one out without without 0:08:21.200 --> 0:08:24.000 the firearm. What were what was the different nature of 0:08:24.040 --> 0:08:27.840 policing that we don't follow that path in Australia. What 0:08:27.880 --> 0:08:30.520 was it about the UK policing that allowed that type 0:08:30.560 --> 0:08:31.040 of policing. 0:08:32.800 --> 0:08:35.319 I think there was a cultural thing, I think that 0:08:36.400 --> 0:08:39.760 society in the UK at that time. And I stress 0:08:39.760 --> 0:08:42.679 at that time because I think it's changed now. There 0:08:42.800 --> 0:08:48.960 was there was guns were were far less common and certainly, 0:08:49.960 --> 0:08:53.160 you know, certainly the crooks for one of the better 0:08:53.440 --> 0:08:58.360 better terms you probably were less less less armed than 0:08:59.640 --> 0:09:03.240 they were here and you know, and there's there's a 0:09:03.240 --> 0:09:06.200 cultural piece to that somewhere, but it was just always 0:09:06.200 --> 0:09:11.000 an acceptance that the British police weren't armed and there 0:09:11.040 --> 0:09:13.959 seemed to be this kind of unwritten code, I suppose, 0:09:14.040 --> 0:09:18.320 between between the crooks and the cops in the UK. 0:09:18.760 --> 0:09:20.560 You know, and I'm talking back in the eighties and 0:09:20.960 --> 0:09:25.560 as I say, things have changed a lot now, but 0:09:26.200 --> 0:09:29.960 you certainly learned to think on your feet a lot more. 0:09:30.120 --> 0:09:33.120 And particularly as I was as a nineteen year old, 0:09:33.440 --> 0:09:35.520 as I say, just green, you know, you know, just 0:09:35.520 --> 0:09:39.120 come out of training school and my first role was 0:09:39.160 --> 0:09:42.480 as a you know, as a community, Bobby. So walking 0:09:42.559 --> 0:09:45.959 around what you know, what we would call like a 0:09:45.960 --> 0:09:49.400 housing commissioner state or you know, you know, a ministry 0:09:49.440 --> 0:09:54.000 of housing kind of a state. And that was you know, 0:09:54.120 --> 0:09:56.680 three shifts, twenty four hours and sometimes on night shift, 0:09:56.720 --> 0:09:59.920 three o'clock in the morning, you're walking around in the 0:10:00.040 --> 0:10:05.160 little winter by yourself. Occasionally some of the some of 0:10:05.200 --> 0:10:07.000 the guys that were driving the cars had come and 0:10:07.040 --> 0:10:08.920 pick you up just to defrost you. And I'll just 0:10:09.040 --> 0:10:10.640 get you in the car and just turn the heter 0:10:10.760 --> 0:10:14.600 on and and uh and just you know, come some 0:10:14.679 --> 0:10:16.480 life back into you and then you know, chuck you 0:10:16.520 --> 0:10:19.240 out because the sergeant to be coming around, and you know, 0:10:19.360 --> 0:10:22.199 the expectation was that you'd be you be on your patch, 0:10:22.280 --> 0:10:28.760 you know, and but yeah, unverwhelmingly, I think it was 0:10:28.960 --> 0:10:32.280 just learning to think on your feet and talk your 0:10:32.280 --> 0:10:35.640 way through situations a lot, a lot more. And that's 0:10:35.679 --> 0:10:37.960 a very important tool here as you know, you know, 0:10:38.120 --> 0:10:43.520 very often I get the privilege of speaking to young 0:10:43.720 --> 0:10:45.880 cops and one of the things I, you know, I 0:10:46.360 --> 0:10:49.360 do tell them is learn to talk to people. You know, 0:10:49.520 --> 0:10:52.599 just have conversations with people. Because in the world the 0:10:52.640 --> 0:10:55.360 way it is now, and particularly with policing where it's 0:10:55.400 --> 0:11:00.680 just I must become a response type profession. Just take 0:11:00.679 --> 0:11:03.360 the time to talk to people. It's one of the 0:11:03.360 --> 0:11:05.600 greatest arts that couples have. 0:11:06.679 --> 0:11:09.319 Well that's a good advice to pass on because it's 0:11:09.360 --> 0:11:11.720 amazing what you get when you do actually sit down 0:11:11.800 --> 0:11:15.840 and talk to people. And this is something that kept 0:11:15.880 --> 0:11:18.720 my interest in policing too. You do get to speak 0:11:18.760 --> 0:11:21.320 to a whole range of people. I was in the 0:11:21.360 --> 0:11:24.880 course of my duties speaking to world leaders and people 0:11:24.880 --> 0:11:27.520 that were living on the streets and flyblay and it 0:11:27.559 --> 0:11:31.760 was but that communication is crucial. And I look at 0:11:31.800 --> 0:11:35.520 all the cops that I respect, they had that ability 0:11:35.559 --> 0:11:39.520 to communicate at different levels and often it breaks down 0:11:39.559 --> 0:11:40.120 that barrier. 0:11:40.640 --> 0:11:45.559 Yep. Absolutely, And you know, and that's something I've always 0:11:46.400 --> 0:11:50.559 I've always prided myself in and just treating everyone with 0:11:51.600 --> 0:11:54.719 respect kind of help me in good stead. I think 0:11:55.360 --> 0:11:56.720 for the forty years that I was doing. 0:11:57.600 --> 0:12:01.120 Okay, before we take you out of the voice and 0:12:01.160 --> 0:12:05.160 bring you crashing into Victorian ployees in some of the 0:12:05.200 --> 0:12:07.880 information just preparing for the podcast, so I see that 0:12:08.000 --> 0:12:10.160 at one point in time, part of your duties was 0:12:10.400 --> 0:12:14.040 protecting a UK cabinet minister high on the r IRA 0:12:14.360 --> 0:12:17.520 hit list. What was the backstory there? That seems like 0:12:17.559 --> 0:12:18.760 an interesting role. 0:12:19.120 --> 0:12:23.120 Yeaholved in just before I came over back to Australia. 0:12:23.160 --> 0:12:26.400 As it was, I did twelve months in a VRP 0:12:26.559 --> 0:12:31.320 protection team for a fellow who was at the time 0:12:31.360 --> 0:12:34.440 the British Minister for Northern Ireland. And you know a 0:12:34.480 --> 0:12:39.480 lot of people forget about about, you know, how serious 0:12:39.559 --> 0:12:43.480 the Northern Ireland issue issue was. And in the in 0:12:43.520 --> 0:12:46.360 the mid eighties or mid to mid to late eighties 0:12:46.400 --> 0:12:48.719 in the UK it was, you know, it's really at 0:12:48.720 --> 0:12:50.920 its highest where we were talking Margaret Thatcher was the 0:12:50.960 --> 0:12:57.199 Prime Minister and yah, there was absolutely not I've lost 0:12:58.480 --> 0:13:02.359 whatsoever between you know, the Irish Republicans and the British 0:13:02.400 --> 0:13:06.640 British government. So that was a really interesting time because 0:13:06.679 --> 0:13:09.160 I was kind of thrust into this really high security 0:13:09.920 --> 0:13:14.360 environment and we talk about going from a non armed 0:13:14.400 --> 0:13:18.520 situation and I then went into a situation where I 0:13:18.679 --> 0:13:21.800 was heavily armed and you know, talking about driving around 0:13:21.840 --> 0:13:27.840 country lanes in range rovers with some serious weaponry as 0:13:27.880 --> 0:13:31.840 a twenty two twenty three year old. So I'd done 0:13:31.880 --> 0:13:36.839 all the firearms training over there, and the threat from 0:13:36.920 --> 0:13:41.040 the IRA was very real. They actually did. There was 0:13:41.360 --> 0:13:44.480 I think three people it was who who were initially 0:13:44.520 --> 0:13:47.400 convicted of conspiracy to murder and this was all the 0:13:47.440 --> 0:13:50.800 time that I was looking after him. And then you know, 0:13:50.920 --> 0:13:54.760 ironically they were acquitted due to comments made by the 0:13:54.800 --> 0:13:57.760 subject that we were protecting, who made comments in the 0:13:57.840 --> 0:14:03.400 media which were deemed a highly prejudicial and and you 0:14:03.440 --> 0:14:06.840 know the cases, you know, they were they were acquitted 0:14:07.080 --> 0:14:11.320 on appeal. So that was quite ironic really that the 0:14:11.360 --> 0:14:15.240 person that we would try to protect screwed it up ultimately. 0:14:15.320 --> 0:14:19.880 But yeah, they were really serious about it, and you know, 0:14:20.000 --> 0:14:25.200 they were highly highly trained, highly affective soldiers. You know, 0:14:25.280 --> 0:14:29.840 they weren't some rag tag army like some street gang. 0:14:30.200 --> 0:14:33.560 They were highly effective soldiers and they did their work, 0:14:33.600 --> 0:14:36.800 They did their reconnaissance and you know, and then the 0:14:37.160 --> 0:14:40.400 reconnaissance team would pass it on to onto you know, 0:14:40.440 --> 0:14:45.320 onto a hit team. And yeah, so it was interesting times, 0:14:45.600 --> 0:14:49.560 you know, just just being in that environment and yeah, 0:14:49.800 --> 0:14:52.320 just was it was actually you know good to come 0:14:52.360 --> 0:14:54.600 to Australia and kind of get out of that where 0:14:54.640 --> 0:14:56.920 things were. 0:14:55.760 --> 0:14:59.720 More related would be very tense. I've done close personal 0:14:59.720 --> 0:15:03.600 prote action in situations like that. But not with that 0:15:03.720 --> 0:15:06.520 threat of the IRA. And as you describe them, they're 0:15:06.560 --> 0:15:10.560 not they're not part time as they're professional and if 0:15:10.560 --> 0:15:13.520 they've got a target, they're going to go after them tactically. 0:15:14.080 --> 0:15:15.960 So yeah, you would have had to be on your taes. 0:15:16.040 --> 0:15:19.240 So is that why you have? I dug deep enough 0:15:19.240 --> 0:15:21.240 to work out why you've come to Australia. 0:15:22.400 --> 0:15:25.360 The look, I mean, I was born here. You know, 0:15:25.400 --> 0:15:28.880 my parents are English, they came over here, went back, 0:15:29.000 --> 0:15:31.560 So I was born here and just always been my 0:15:31.600 --> 0:15:35.600 ambition to come back. So that was really a way 0:15:36.400 --> 0:15:40.520 to you know, to you know, I took on that 0:15:40.640 --> 0:15:43.560 role knowing that I was coming here in twelve months 0:15:43.600 --> 0:15:46.960 time and so that was really you know, nothing to 0:15:47.000 --> 0:15:49.480 do with you know, I wasn't scaping that or anything 0:15:49.520 --> 0:15:51.840 like that, but yeah, it was it was you know, 0:15:51.840 --> 0:15:55.200 it was hairy times as well. Again, as you know, 0:15:55.320 --> 0:15:58.800 you learn something through all of these roles and you 0:15:58.840 --> 0:16:02.280 take that with you during your career and you know, 0:16:02.480 --> 0:16:08.080 so that concept of personal and operational security has always 0:16:08.080 --> 0:16:09.600 been paramount as well. 0:16:10.760 --> 0:16:14.400 I think having done tactical policing myself, I think it 0:16:14.760 --> 0:16:18.680 boted very well for working in criminal investigation when you 0:16:18.800 --> 0:16:21.920 might be doing the tactical stuff yourself at that stage, 0:16:22.080 --> 0:16:25.560 but you had the communication, you understand their capabilities and 0:16:25.640 --> 0:16:29.320 different things, so it's all about getting the experience. Did 0:16:29.360 --> 0:16:32.160 you come over to Australia with the intent to join 0:16:32.200 --> 0:16:32.600 the police? 0:16:33.280 --> 0:16:36.480 Yeah, ok, I'd actually come here on holiday and I 0:16:36.480 --> 0:16:41.440 did all the recruiting interviews while I was here on holiday. 0:16:41.760 --> 0:16:47.480 And they at that time here in Victoria in nineteen 0:16:47.720 --> 0:16:50.560 eighty nine, it would have been a lot of people 0:16:50.680 --> 0:16:55.320 that they just changed the superannuation scheme and so a 0:16:56.040 --> 0:16:59.800 lot of the old timers left under the old scheme, 0:17:00.160 --> 0:17:03.320 and so there was a massive recruiting drive and you 0:17:03.360 --> 0:17:06.040 know I didn't know that, but you know, they were 0:17:06.040 --> 0:17:11.760 pushing people through, you know, very quickly, and unlike today, 0:17:11.840 --> 0:17:14.040 there was a there was a you know, there was 0:17:14.080 --> 0:17:17.920 a vast pool of applicants who wanted to do it, 0:17:18.200 --> 0:17:22.480 which is a different story these days. But yeah, so 0:17:22.520 --> 0:17:26.560 I came here, did all the testing and interviews and 0:17:26.760 --> 0:17:29.000 they said, you know, come back in six months and 0:17:29.040 --> 0:17:30.960 you can go straight in. So I was pretty much 0:17:31.000 --> 0:17:32.680 back within six months. 0:17:33.160 --> 0:17:36.439 Okay, did you get any the credit or allowances for 0:17:36.480 --> 0:17:38.840 your experience or you know, you had to start fresh 0:17:38.840 --> 0:17:41.440 and in the in the academy learned how to march. 0:17:41.480 --> 0:17:45.200 And yeah, and you know I've used this, I've used 0:17:45.160 --> 0:17:50.160 this analogy before. But back at the Academy in those days, 0:17:50.160 --> 0:17:53.280 they still did a thing here which was called fatigues. 0:17:54.240 --> 0:17:56.639 So if you lived in the academy, I don't know 0:17:56.680 --> 0:17:58.600 what it was like at Gulban back in your day, 0:17:58.680 --> 0:18:01.879 but if you lived in the academy, you had to 0:18:01.920 --> 0:18:05.000 have a job and you got allocated a role. So 0:18:05.040 --> 0:18:07.960 it might be picking letter up, it might be washing 0:18:08.000 --> 0:18:12.480 dishes after dinner. And my role was sweeping the round 0:18:12.520 --> 0:18:14.320 about it at the front of the Police Academy. So 0:18:15.160 --> 0:18:18.679 you know, I'd gone from looking after the British Minister 0:18:18.720 --> 0:18:21.320 for noln Island to sweeping the roundabout the front of 0:18:21.359 --> 0:18:24.800 the Police Academy in very quick time. But you know, again, 0:18:24.920 --> 0:18:28.240 out of that, you know, I remember those times and 0:18:28.520 --> 0:18:30.679 the humbling moments where you kind of think, you know, 0:18:30.760 --> 0:18:33.239 we'll just put your head down, just do what you've 0:18:33.240 --> 0:18:35.520 got to do, you know, just keep pushing, pushing forward. 0:18:35.600 --> 0:18:37.560 And you know you learn a lot from those moments 0:18:37.600 --> 0:18:40.720 too that you know, you could actually throw your arms 0:18:40.800 --> 0:18:42.480 up in the air and say I'm too good for this, 0:18:42.640 --> 0:18:46.480 or whatever. But you know, I think you just push 0:18:46.560 --> 0:18:50.160 through and just just think, well, yeah, there's a goal 0:18:50.200 --> 0:18:52.159 at the end of the day, and this is you know, 0:18:52.240 --> 0:18:54.320 this is part of the one of the hurdles I've 0:18:54.320 --> 0:18:55.200 got to jump to get. 0:18:55.040 --> 0:18:58.679 There, most definitely, And it's a good attitude to have. 0:18:58.800 --> 0:19:01.680 It's all learning process. You're paying your dues. I think 0:19:01.720 --> 0:19:06.760 that's very very important in an organization like a police force, 0:19:07.200 --> 0:19:11.480 that you understand that, yeah, just learn your way, learn 0:19:11.520 --> 0:19:13.840 all the things. It might be doing point duty of 0:19:14.119 --> 0:19:17.520 the traffic accident, which is probably not what you're aspiring to, 0:19:17.640 --> 0:19:19.400 but it's all part of the learning process. 0:19:19.720 --> 0:19:22.800 Yeah. Yeah, I do stress that they don't do those 0:19:22.840 --> 0:19:28.159 things anymore. 0:19:28.880 --> 0:19:32.240 So we both had a conversation before this and we 0:19:32.280 --> 0:19:36.359 were talking about policing and trying to encourage police because 0:19:36.359 --> 0:19:38.679 the bigger pill you've got, the better people you can select. 0:19:38.680 --> 0:19:41.960 And it saddens me. I see across the country police 0:19:41.960 --> 0:19:47.520 forces are struggling to attract recruits and yeah, it's okay, 0:19:47.520 --> 0:19:49.080 we better not tell them they've got to sweep the 0:19:49.320 --> 0:19:50.760 roundabout if they if they. 0:19:50.920 --> 0:19:54.639 Know, no, not and not to you know, not to 0:19:54.680 --> 0:19:56.800 take away you know how hard the job is. But 0:19:57.000 --> 0:19:59.600 it's very very satisfying and very fulfilling as well. 0:20:00.200 --> 0:20:05.280 Yeah, what what steered you towards the career in detectives. 0:20:07.560 --> 0:20:09.840 I think I've been here for a number of years 0:20:09.840 --> 0:20:13.600 and just did a few different roles in general duties 0:20:13.720 --> 0:20:16.600 or you know, in regional policing, and then one of 0:20:16.640 --> 0:20:19.879 my first postings was was in an area called paran 0:20:20.040 --> 0:20:23.800 here in Melbourne, which is is pretty much next to 0:20:23.840 --> 0:20:27.760 sin Kilda as well. So I've worked at the support 0:20:27.760 --> 0:20:31.600 group it was called at the time, where they did 0:20:31.640 --> 0:20:36.199 a lot of the lower level drugs investigations and you 0:20:36.280 --> 0:20:41.280 know another you know, I suppose middle level crimes, you know, 0:20:41.320 --> 0:20:44.679 I suppose that the ones that the detectives weren't doing, 0:20:44.760 --> 0:20:49.800 and so I did that for a little while. And 0:20:50.560 --> 0:20:52.960 one of the one of the great things about those 0:20:53.080 --> 0:20:58.000 units and still is, is that they're a bit of 0:20:58.000 --> 0:21:02.919 a breeding ground for new detectives. The junior people like 0:21:03.040 --> 0:21:05.960 I was come in, but the sergeants there tend to 0:21:06.000 --> 0:21:09.200 be people, you know, who've been detective, you know, either 0:21:09.240 --> 0:21:12.639 been off at the crime squad's got promoted and then 0:21:13.040 --> 0:21:16.560 are coming into these units. So you're actually getting led 0:21:16.720 --> 0:21:19.480 by people who've got that background. So you know, it 0:21:19.520 --> 0:21:21.640 was a really formative time for me. I think here 0:21:21.680 --> 0:21:23.880 where I decided, yeah, this is what I wanted to do. 0:21:23.960 --> 0:21:28.360 And there's a few those sergeants there that had come 0:21:28.400 --> 0:21:32.679 from the robbery squad and the homicide squad, and you 0:21:32.840 --> 0:21:36.080 kind of just got a taste of those bigger investigations 0:21:36.080 --> 0:21:38.600 as well, I suppose. So that's where it started for me. 0:21:38.880 --> 0:21:42.639 Okay, we're going to jump into your career in major 0:21:42.680 --> 0:21:46.160 crime and being involved in leading some of the country's 0:21:46.440 --> 0:21:51.520 biggest homicide investigations. But before we do, both former homicide detects, 0:21:51.960 --> 0:21:54.920 I think it's important we talk about the impact victim 0:21:55.600 --> 0:21:58.840 homicide has and the devastating that fact it has. And 0:21:58.880 --> 0:22:01.760 there's a ripple effect homicide, isn't it When one life 0:22:01.840 --> 0:22:04.760 is taken, it's not just one life destroyed. There's there's 0:22:04.840 --> 0:22:08.160 multiple lives that are destroyed. What's your your thoughts on 0:22:08.480 --> 0:22:10.280 homicide investigation in general? 0:22:11.560 --> 0:22:16.199 Ah, Look, it's it's it doesn't get any tougher. And 0:22:16.240 --> 0:22:18.800 I think about you know, myself, and I think about 0:22:18.840 --> 0:22:21.240 all the all the other people doing that work, that 0:22:21.440 --> 0:22:26.160 these cases stay with you forever. And I think, ultimately, 0:22:26.240 --> 0:22:28.800 if I look at why I stepped away, at the 0:22:28.880 --> 0:22:31.159 end of the day, I think, you know it just 0:22:31.760 --> 0:22:33.920 you know, there's some title of you know, of carrying 0:22:33.960 --> 0:22:36.399 all that from from over that period of time. You 0:22:36.600 --> 0:22:38.560 just it's just a weight on your shoulders that you 0:22:38.640 --> 0:22:41.399 kind of just want some release from. But I mean 0:22:41.440 --> 0:22:45.800 the reality is, as an investigator in a homicide squads 0:22:46.240 --> 0:22:50.480 in a homicide manner, I should say those those cases 0:22:50.480 --> 0:22:54.040 can take ten years to work through the courts. And 0:22:54.119 --> 0:22:57.280 if you're the lead investigator in those, you carry those 0:22:57.359 --> 0:23:00.439 cases and other cases, you know, so you as you know, 0:23:01.000 --> 0:23:05.280 all your homicide investigators O carry in multiple cases and 0:23:05.600 --> 0:23:07.480 a lot of them can take a long time to 0:23:07.520 --> 0:23:12.159 work through the courts, and you keep that, you know, 0:23:12.240 --> 0:23:15.000 And this is probably one of the things if I 0:23:15.040 --> 0:23:20.040 could actually change anything, or work towards changing something, it 0:23:20.080 --> 0:23:23.200 would be to take the reliance off the individual a 0:23:23.240 --> 0:23:26.840 little bit more. And you know, I'm talking specifically about 0:23:26.920 --> 0:23:29.159 Victoria here. I think there's too much reliance and too 0:23:29.240 --> 0:23:33.560 much pressure put on what we call the informant here 0:23:33.600 --> 0:23:38.080 in Victoria, who are all things to all people. So 0:23:38.320 --> 0:23:40.680 you know, they've got to prepare the case, they've got 0:23:40.720 --> 0:23:43.960 to be the liaison with the families, which is a 0:23:44.119 --> 0:23:49.280 very very difficult, you know, very difficult role the court 0:23:49.359 --> 0:23:54.439 liaison prepare the matter for court, and that goes on 0:23:54.520 --> 0:23:55.840 and on and on. If you get a man at 0:23:55.840 --> 0:23:59.040 the coast of the High Court, then yeah, you look 0:23:59.040 --> 0:24:02.520 at you potentially ten years down the track. That's the 0:24:02.560 --> 0:24:05.800 one thing that I would like, you know, some focus 0:24:06.480 --> 0:24:09.040 to be on and just relieving some of that pressure 0:24:09.119 --> 0:24:12.040 on the individual here. But you know, I think that's 0:24:12.080 --> 0:24:15.840 the hardest part about homicide. I don't think there's any 0:24:15.880 --> 0:24:20.840 other cases, and I've investigated pretty much everything else where. 0:24:21.359 --> 0:24:23.600 They stay with you as long as long as they do. 0:24:24.000 --> 0:24:26.239 And of course it's not just stay with you in 0:24:26.280 --> 0:24:30.800 a technical sense, or it's an emotional sense too, because 0:24:31.320 --> 0:24:34.159 most of us, you know, most of us carry a 0:24:34.200 --> 0:24:36.879 little bit you know with this, you know, and just 0:24:36.920 --> 0:24:41.040 through that dealing with the families day to day and 0:24:41.160 --> 0:24:45.800 these manners, you know, it attaches to you. 0:24:45.800 --> 0:24:48.800 You talked about the pressure on the informant, I know 0:24:48.920 --> 0:24:51.159 in New South Wales and I'm sure it's in Victoria. 0:24:51.200 --> 0:24:54.320 It's just the nature of things and resources are limited. 0:24:54.800 --> 0:24:57.520 Quite often you'd have a big strike force investigating a 0:24:57.960 --> 0:25:02.240 particular murder and then someone's been charged and then Okay, 0:25:02.280 --> 0:25:05.480 well we need to allocate the resources elsewhere and you're 0:25:05.560 --> 0:25:08.400 left You're left there. You used to have a team 0:25:08.440 --> 0:25:10.720 of twenty. Now you've got a team of one or 0:25:10.760 --> 0:25:15.120 two and you've expected to run the matter through the courts. 0:25:14.920 --> 0:25:17.800 And you're expected to help other people with other jobs, 0:25:17.840 --> 0:25:21.399 and you know, and also take on new cases too. 0:25:21.480 --> 0:25:25.360 Yeah, you said in the chat we had the other 0:25:25.440 --> 0:25:27.960 day that in the UK they have a system where 0:25:28.000 --> 0:25:31.119 that what you were saying we should aspire to, they 0:25:31.240 --> 0:25:33.520 had a system in place there where there was a 0:25:33.520 --> 0:25:35.920 little bit less or it was spread around. Once you've 0:25:36.000 --> 0:25:39.320 charged someone, there's more people available to help the matters 0:25:39.920 --> 0:25:41.040 proceed through the courts. 0:25:41.160 --> 0:25:43.159 Yeah. So going back to nineteen eighty nine when I 0:25:43.240 --> 0:25:48.640 left the UK, that there was investigation support teams which 0:25:48.680 --> 0:25:52.200 were generally retired cops. Most cops retire after thirty years 0:25:52.240 --> 0:25:55.239 in the UK, and a lot of them are just 0:25:55.440 --> 0:25:58.280 you know, forty nine to fifty and not ready to 0:25:57.880 --> 0:26:02.679 do nothing. So a lot of them actually finish on 0:26:02.680 --> 0:26:05.840 the Friday is as a as a cop and come 0:26:05.880 --> 0:26:09.359 back on the Monday as an administrative assistance or an 0:26:09.400 --> 0:26:15.399 investigative assistant. And there's not much that they can't do 0:26:15.520 --> 0:26:18.520 that you know, the cop can do is basically only 0:26:18.560 --> 0:26:22.399 the arrest bows that the change. So there was a 0:26:22.520 --> 0:26:27.199 lot of assistance through those areas. You know, looking at 0:26:27.240 --> 0:26:32.960 it practically as a detective, as a as a cop 0:26:33.040 --> 0:26:35.080 on the street, you go out, you make an arrest, 0:26:35.119 --> 0:26:38.560 you bring them back, you'd interview them, then you charge 0:26:38.640 --> 0:26:40.720 them and that would essentially be the last you'd see 0:26:40.760 --> 0:26:42.399 it until it goes to court. There would be a 0:26:42.520 --> 0:26:45.639 whole range of other support services that would put the 0:26:45.720 --> 0:26:50.760 brief together with liaison with the CPS as it is there, 0:26:51.000 --> 0:26:53.760 or the opp as we'd call it here. Yeah, you're 0:26:53.840 --> 0:26:58.680 essentially just a witness on the brief. As the arresting officer. Here, 0:26:58.800 --> 0:27:02.000 it's a lot different you you do the individual does 0:27:02.040 --> 0:27:07.160 all those things. And there's a lot of conversations here 0:27:07.240 --> 0:27:12.080 in Victoria at the moment about bringing back some of 0:27:12.160 --> 0:27:15.879 the retired retired cops and to you know, to do 0:27:16.080 --> 0:27:19.240 some of this work that's been spoken about for a 0:27:19.320 --> 0:27:21.399 long time. I just don't think. I don't think in 0:27:21.480 --> 0:27:25.680 Australia it's it's it's a priority for at the political level. 0:27:27.000 --> 0:27:29.520 I think it's always a conversation is always around police 0:27:29.600 --> 0:27:32.480 numbers and around you know, get more police, get more police. 0:27:32.520 --> 0:27:38.600 That's that's sexy for politicians. Yeah for twelve months. Yeah, yeah, 0:27:38.800 --> 0:27:41.240 so you know we're in that cycle again, or we 0:27:41.280 --> 0:27:44.440 will be in that cycle again here very soon. And 0:27:44.560 --> 0:27:47.879 what never gets spoken about was, you know, well, we 0:27:47.960 --> 0:27:51.639 could we could probably do with less police if we 0:27:51.800 --> 0:27:56.560 had more more assistances, more administrative assistance. And they're not 0:27:56.640 --> 0:27:58.639 people that actually have to be swarm police, so they 0:27:58.680 --> 0:28:01.399 don't have to go off and do three months. And 0:28:02.040 --> 0:28:05.280 as you know, there's a body of people out there 0:28:05.760 --> 0:28:09.480 in ex cops who would be prepared to come in 0:28:09.600 --> 0:28:15.919 and if it was just taking statements or putting briefs together, 0:28:16.119 --> 0:28:19.639 that sort of stuff. You know, those are the roles 0:28:19.680 --> 0:28:23.000 where you could actually free up your investigators to actually 0:28:23.080 --> 0:28:24.480 do the stuff that you want them to do. You 0:28:24.560 --> 0:28:26.000 can go out and catching crooks. 0:28:27.000 --> 0:28:30.520 Andrew I think that's an important conversations, something that we've 0:28:30.600 --> 0:28:34.399 touched on previously, and it's usually with the experienced cops 0:28:34.800 --> 0:28:39.000 like yourself, that that is really a way forward. It 0:28:39.160 --> 0:28:43.560 doesn't necessarily we have to increase the police numbers, but 0:28:43.880 --> 0:28:46.240 take a bit of the pressure off the administrative stuff, 0:28:46.280 --> 0:28:49.160 not just with the criminal investigations, but the administration in 0:28:49.320 --> 0:28:52.520 terms of keeping diaries up to date and different things 0:28:52.600 --> 0:28:56.360 that really even and people I think have a misconception 0:28:56.520 --> 0:28:59.000 that and I'm sure you would have experienced this. You 0:28:59.080 --> 0:29:02.320 could be leading a hole profile homicide investigation, and you 0:29:02.400 --> 0:29:05.000 could also be spending a day on the phato copier 0:29:05.320 --> 0:29:08.440 making sure you could FADO copy, getting the brief prepared, 0:29:09.160 --> 0:29:11.600 and doing stuff like that. And I often thought, with 0:29:12.120 --> 0:29:15.680 the experience of experienced officers that we could have people 0:29:15.760 --> 0:29:18.160 assisting in those roles. But there seems to be a 0:29:18.200 --> 0:29:21.360 reluctance to it. But I think it's definitely worth having 0:29:21.440 --> 0:29:22.560 the conversation about. 0:29:22.840 --> 0:29:26.360 Yeah, well, as an example of the major cases you're 0:29:26.440 --> 0:29:31.280 talking and I often used to say, you know, somewhat flippantly, 0:29:31.800 --> 0:29:34.000 when we've made a significant arrest. 0:29:33.880 --> 0:29:36.200 You know, all the fund's over that, you know, the 0:29:37.240 --> 0:29:38.040 hard work begins. 0:29:38.240 --> 0:29:40.560 The hard work begins and putting the brief together. And 0:29:41.160 --> 0:29:43.480 these days it's not just putting the brief together, it's 0:29:43.920 --> 0:29:47.080 the disclosure. The disclosure and in a lot of cases 0:29:47.520 --> 0:29:52.000 is greater than the brief. And you know, and through 0:29:52.080 --> 0:29:55.560 disclosure we're talking about when you know, obviously, just to 0:29:55.640 --> 0:29:59.040 explain to the listeners, when the solicitors get the brief 0:29:59.080 --> 0:30:06.240 and they and put in their disclosure requests or demands 0:30:06.280 --> 0:30:09.320 as they are, you know, or the other material that 0:30:10.240 --> 0:30:15.000 they deem to be relevant or want to assist their 0:30:15.120 --> 0:30:19.280 case has to be prepared and submitted, and in a 0:30:19.360 --> 0:30:21.640 lot of cases there's a lot of redaction and a 0:30:21.720 --> 0:30:23.840 lot of a lot of work got to go into that, 0:30:23.960 --> 0:30:26.640 and generally it's one person doing that again, and that 0:30:27.000 --> 0:30:28.360 can take longer than the brief. 0:30:28.160 --> 0:30:32.320 To put together. Most definitely, I think it's quite often, 0:30:32.640 --> 0:30:37.040 I believe, not just solely, but sometimes use strategically by 0:30:37.160 --> 0:30:41.360 defense barristers and solicitors that you get your requisitions on 0:30:41.440 --> 0:30:45.040 a Friday afternoon and they can be extremely broad, and 0:30:45.120 --> 0:30:48.560 it would be literally going through hundreds and hundreds if 0:30:48.600 --> 0:30:51.920 not more, pages of evidence and redacting certain things and 0:30:52.320 --> 0:30:56.800 gathering gathering information. So look, it's a conversation that I 0:30:56.920 --> 0:30:59.360 think's worth having, and it's good sitting down speaking to 0:30:59.440 --> 0:31:02.880 an experience police officer looking at it, stepping away, not 0:31:03.000 --> 0:31:05.680 involved in it now, but thinking where there could be improvements, 0:31:05.720 --> 0:31:09.560 and just using the experience of retired police officers. That's 0:31:09.600 --> 0:31:12.960 something that I've often said about New South Wales and 0:31:13.000 --> 0:31:17.160 I can only speak with knowledge on New South Wales. 0:31:17.240 --> 0:31:21.000 But when someone retired, they were gone from the force. 0:31:21.600 --> 0:31:26.800 And I had friends colleagues that had retired for whatever reason, 0:31:27.080 --> 0:31:29.000 but they would love to be working two or three 0:31:29.120 --> 0:31:31.040 days a week and it could just be as simply 0:31:31.200 --> 0:31:34.920 as sitting down taking witness statements just to and there's 0:31:34.960 --> 0:31:37.000 a skill set that they've walked away with and we're 0:31:37.040 --> 0:31:37.800 not utilizing that. 0:31:38.040 --> 0:31:40.600 And don't get me started on witness statements, because you know, 0:31:40.720 --> 0:31:43.000 that's probably one of the you know, if I had 0:31:43.040 --> 0:31:45.520 to talk about one of the one of the arts 0:31:46.240 --> 0:31:51.120 of certainly being being an detctive is good witness statements 0:31:51.200 --> 0:31:54.440 and they're very rarely done. And you know, some of 0:31:54.520 --> 0:31:57.400 the some of the more experienced people, if that's all 0:31:57.440 --> 0:32:00.000 you're doing, you know, because as you know, your case. 0:31:59.920 --> 0:32:02.600 Is revolve on your witness witness statements. 0:32:02.800 --> 0:32:08.480 Yeah, so yeah, I'm not submitting my CLV just. 0:32:10.560 --> 0:32:14.960 But just for I know what you say. And we 0:32:15.120 --> 0:32:18.480 look at it. And I was working with strike forces 0:32:18.520 --> 0:32:20.840 and I'm thinking, I know these people are sitting home 0:32:20.920 --> 0:32:23.080 board because they're fanning me all the time since they've 0:32:23.160 --> 0:32:24.800 left the police, and I would love them to come 0:32:24.880 --> 0:32:28.840 in and get this detailed twenty page witness statement covering 0:32:28.880 --> 0:32:33.360 off all the information that's required. But look, we're getting distracted. 0:32:33.640 --> 0:32:37.160 I was going to have the conversation about about policing, 0:32:37.240 --> 0:32:39.920 but let's let's delve into some of the cases that 0:32:40.880 --> 0:32:45.080 you've been involved in. I'd be criticized by the audience 0:32:45.160 --> 0:32:49.240 if I didn't take you to strike a Force or Piranha, 0:32:49.440 --> 0:32:54.160 the Melbourne Underworld gangland killings that certainly played out big 0:32:54.280 --> 0:32:58.560 time and in the Underbelly TV series. What was your 0:32:58.640 --> 0:33:01.080 involvement in that investigation and tell us about what was 0:33:01.120 --> 0:33:02.280 going on at that time. 0:33:02.640 --> 0:33:06.600 Well, I was there at the start, so I'd not 0:33:06.880 --> 0:33:09.719 long been a homicide and I was I was allocated 0:33:09.760 --> 0:33:13.480 to to a crew. My senior sergeant was Pheli Bonymus 0:33:13.640 --> 0:33:17.880 Phil Swindles at the time, and we actually had a 0:33:17.960 --> 0:33:21.959 lot of the unsolved cases on our crew which had 0:33:22.000 --> 0:33:26.080 happened so unsolved shooting murders out in the western suburbs 0:33:26.240 --> 0:33:32.160 of Melbourne, and that it was actually Phil who put 0:33:32.200 --> 0:33:38.040 together a report a recommending a task force be set 0:33:38.120 --> 0:33:40.920 up to investigate these all of these unsold murders because 0:33:40.960 --> 0:33:44.040 there was some commonality in some of the some of 0:33:44.080 --> 0:33:47.840 the identities that were that were that were cropping up. 0:33:47.880 --> 0:33:50.360 And of course you know, now people like Carl Williams 0:33:51.080 --> 0:33:54.600 and as you know, as a as a trooper and 0:33:55.240 --> 0:33:58.840 and then as a boss task forces, you don't you know, 0:33:59.240 --> 0:34:01.840 you don't want us that one up unless you absolutely 0:34:01.920 --> 0:34:03.480 have to. So there was there was, you know, there 0:34:03.600 --> 0:34:08.279 was some resistance at at the early stages, so that 0:34:08.440 --> 0:34:10.759 was knocked back that request initially. And then there was 0:34:10.800 --> 0:34:13.680 a there was a feller by name of Nick Radev 0:34:13.760 --> 0:34:18.360 who was notoriously known as Nick the Russian, which I 0:34:18.400 --> 0:34:21.279 could never understand because he was actually Bulgarian. But Nick 0:34:21.360 --> 0:34:25.160 the Russian was shot and killed in Melbourne in an 0:34:25.320 --> 0:34:29.319 area of Melbourne called Cobert and that was pretty much 0:34:29.360 --> 0:34:31.520 the straw that broke the camel's back. So when that 0:34:31.640 --> 0:34:35.600 happened to happened in a very public place, and there 0:34:35.719 --> 0:34:39.360 was you know, rightfully, there was a lot of media 0:34:39.560 --> 0:34:43.360 outrage about that, and so that was the start of Prana. 0:34:43.480 --> 0:34:46.080 So it was really you know, for any of your 0:34:47.440 --> 0:34:50.880 listeners and yourself, if you've watched the wire, when you 0:34:50.920 --> 0:34:52.840 know it's a bit like setting up setting up the 0:34:53.360 --> 0:34:56.960 task force in the wy you know that you go 0:34:57.120 --> 0:34:59.440 down to the basement with the old you know the 0:34:59.520 --> 0:35:03.160 facts mass. You know, we didn't quite have the walking 0:35:03.200 --> 0:35:05.839 wounded that they had in the in the in the wire. 0:35:05.960 --> 0:35:10.279 But again I always I've always found the startup of 0:35:10.400 --> 0:35:15.360 task forces or strike forces something, you know, it's funny 0:35:15.400 --> 0:35:19.080 and it's it's it's it's got its own culture itself 0:35:19.160 --> 0:35:19.680 in policing. 0:35:19.760 --> 0:35:23.520 I think as well, well, you've opened up my mind 0:35:23.600 --> 0:35:25.799 about some of the strike forces that were started up 0:35:25.880 --> 0:35:28.040 and then to be announced by the senior police that 0:35:28.120 --> 0:35:30.280 we've got the strike force. And then you look around 0:35:30.360 --> 0:35:36.000 and we're still sitting at the same desk. No car, yeah, 0:35:36.560 --> 0:35:39.520 no computers. Well what about staff? We should be able 0:35:39.520 --> 0:35:41.640 to get you some stuff. And invariably you get someone 0:35:41.719 --> 0:35:44.560 that's on long term sick for on holidays. 0:35:44.560 --> 0:35:46.319 He's coming back in six months. Yeah, but you can 0:35:46.400 --> 0:35:46.719 have him. 0:35:46.800 --> 0:35:50.920 Yeah yeah, Well it has twigged my memory on on 0:35:51.080 --> 0:35:54.719 those times and that work was chaotic and I would 0:35:54.760 --> 0:35:57.360 explain to people, and the more experienced I got, and 0:35:57.400 --> 0:35:59.920 I was taught by people that were experienced, I couldn't 0:36:00.120 --> 0:36:02.360 the stand when we're starting the strikeforce. When I was 0:36:02.360 --> 0:36:06.120 a young fresh detective, all excited, Why we're worrying so 0:36:06.280 --> 0:36:08.400 much about where are we going to access a whiteboard? 0:36:08.440 --> 0:36:10.799 Why are we worried about computers? Shouldn't we be locking 0:36:10.880 --> 0:36:14.080 up the bad guys? But I came to learn that 0:36:14.320 --> 0:36:17.200 was imperative for the success of an investigation, to make 0:36:17.239 --> 0:36:19.840 sure your fought for everything you could to get your 0:36:19.880 --> 0:36:20.359 strike force. 0:36:21.920 --> 0:36:25.000 White boys were a serious commodity, weren't they, and policing 0:36:25.880 --> 0:36:31.000 in but I do say that Piranha was different in that. 0:36:31.560 --> 0:36:34.839 So our entire crew went up to this task force, 0:36:34.880 --> 0:36:36.560 and then they brought in some other people and some 0:36:36.680 --> 0:36:40.320 great people as well from different areas, from drugs and 0:36:40.400 --> 0:36:43.960 stolen stolen cars. And so that was the start of it, 0:36:44.280 --> 0:36:50.000 and then it multiplied significantly after the murder of Jason 0:36:50.040 --> 0:36:54.000 Moran and a feller by name of Pasquali Barbera added 0:36:55.320 --> 0:36:59.239 add at the Cross Keys Hotel in Pascal Vale. And 0:36:59.400 --> 0:37:02.840 this was the one that happened on an oz kick mourning. 0:37:03.760 --> 0:37:07.279 All the kids are playing playing footy and the two 0:37:08.080 --> 0:37:11.719 deceased in that manner actually loaded their kids into into 0:37:11.760 --> 0:37:15.160 a van and we're just about to leave from memory 0:37:15.200 --> 0:37:18.600 when they were, you know, they were brutally assassinated and 0:37:19.680 --> 0:37:22.520 in public view with all these kids at this junior 0:37:22.560 --> 0:37:26.880 footy morning, and that was the one that just caused 0:37:27.000 --> 0:37:29.640 enormous outrage. And you know, as I've said before, I 0:37:29.719 --> 0:37:32.080 think there are a number of things that are sacrosanct 0:37:32.160 --> 0:37:37.520 in Australian society and kids sport on the weekends as 0:37:37.560 --> 0:37:40.520 one of them, and for something like that to happen 0:37:40.560 --> 0:37:43.759 in that environment, so then there was there was a 0:37:43.800 --> 0:37:48.520 big injection of staff into the task force. As a 0:37:48.600 --> 0:37:52.360 result of that, we probably tripled in number, went to 0:37:52.400 --> 0:37:55.759 a bigger room, got a couple more cars, a couple 0:37:55.880 --> 0:37:59.960 more whiteboards. But yeah, that's when it really took off. 0:38:00.840 --> 0:38:03.040 What was the pressure like then, because I know when 0:38:03.360 --> 0:38:06.640 you're involved in big strike forces like that, it's twenty 0:38:06.680 --> 0:38:10.640 four to seven For each action, there's a reaction. You're 0:38:10.719 --> 0:38:14.239 targeting people, you're keeping an eye that further crimes, and 0:38:14.320 --> 0:38:17.400 it's a little bit different from some homicide investigations because 0:38:17.400 --> 0:38:19.600 you've almost got to be proactive in the way that 0:38:20.000 --> 0:38:23.760 you're trying to prevent further fever crimes happening. 0:38:24.160 --> 0:38:27.520 It was like who's next, So you know, we all 0:38:27.680 --> 0:38:33.400 were allocated an investigation, and then there's homicides that are happening. 0:38:33.760 --> 0:38:36.560 You're looking at those and seeing there's any connections into it, 0:38:36.719 --> 0:38:40.080 and then if there are connections, then there was a 0:38:40.120 --> 0:38:43.840 bit of a negotiation with a homicide squad, you know, 0:38:43.960 --> 0:38:49.160 to release those investigations to the Task Force. So it 0:38:49.440 --> 0:38:53.560 was yeah, that was crazy days really that you kind 0:38:53.600 --> 0:38:55.960 of just every day you were just kind of wondering who, 0:38:56.560 --> 0:38:59.759 you know, who's next. That the crooks on us got 0:39:00.239 --> 0:39:04.400 intoxicated on what they thought was this power that they 0:39:04.520 --> 0:39:08.480 had to do this, And yeah, so that's why, you know, 0:39:08.800 --> 0:39:10.800 I'm really proud of the work that we did. And 0:39:11.320 --> 0:39:14.319 you know, I often get asked about there's obviously been 0:39:14.680 --> 0:39:18.120 some issues over the years where you know, some of 0:39:18.160 --> 0:39:20.440 the tactics that we use they have you know, certainly 0:39:20.520 --> 0:39:24.239 been questioned. But holistically, from my point of view, it 0:39:24.400 --> 0:39:30.120 stopped what was happening and undoubtedly saved lives and you know, 0:39:30.320 --> 0:39:33.520 stop the underworld we're actually trying to run the city. 0:39:34.480 --> 0:39:38.600 Yeah, that is the difficulty of situations like that, Like 0:39:38.719 --> 0:39:43.200 I'm sure the task Force was set up to solve 0:39:43.280 --> 0:39:46.279 the crimes but also prevent further crimes from happening, and 0:39:46.360 --> 0:39:49.680 there's a lot of pressure and you've got to play 0:39:50.040 --> 0:39:53.880 think outside the square in those ways. I think what 0:39:54.000 --> 0:39:56.000 we're alluding to and we don't have to delve into 0:39:56.080 --> 0:39:58.880 it was the solicit that became an informant that's been 0:39:58.960 --> 0:40:02.919 playing out publicly over the past the past few years. 0:40:03.120 --> 0:40:05.520 From it, I look at it, I look at it 0:40:05.600 --> 0:40:07.960 from an investigator's point of view, and I can just 0:40:08.080 --> 0:40:10.359 picture how Chao think that whole time would have been 0:40:10.960 --> 0:40:14.200 down there, and the pressures that were on and the 0:40:14.280 --> 0:40:19.040 people involved in Yeah, you got big personalities in the 0:40:19.160 --> 0:40:22.640 investigations like this and you're getting pulled from pill the post. 0:40:22.920 --> 0:40:25.080 Did you have a specific role, Yeah, well, I. 0:40:25.200 --> 0:40:28.080 Was one of the one of the lead investigators. There 0:40:28.160 --> 0:40:30.640 was a murder that happened after the task force had 0:40:31.080 --> 0:40:37.160 started Fellabono of Lewis Kane who was shot and killed 0:40:37.200 --> 0:40:39.719 out at Carlton and then his body was dumped in Brunswick. 0:40:40.880 --> 0:40:46.719 And there was two too very well known criminal identity 0:40:46.840 --> 0:40:49.920 who I can't name because of active suppression orders. Still 0:40:52.320 --> 0:40:55.640 they were ultimately charged with that. So I was the 0:40:55.680 --> 0:41:00.399 informant in that case, carried that one through know over 0:41:00.480 --> 0:41:03.360 a period of time. But so I was, you know, 0:41:03.520 --> 0:41:07.960 one of the one of the homicide investigators who, as 0:41:08.000 --> 0:41:09.839 I say, we had a you know, we generally had 0:41:09.840 --> 0:41:11.759 an active job, and we had a you know, we 0:41:11.880 --> 0:41:14.279 had you know, other unsolved jobs as well that we 0:41:14.360 --> 0:41:15.000 were looking. 0:41:14.840 --> 0:41:20.279 At without giving away methodology on how they were caught. 0:41:20.400 --> 0:41:22.800 A lot of them have gone through gone through the courts. 0:41:23.239 --> 0:41:25.440 Where did you think that the police was starting to 0:41:25.480 --> 0:41:28.480 get the upper hand on what was going on. 0:41:29.080 --> 0:41:33.400 It was probably the most significant investigation, you know, in 0:41:33.520 --> 0:41:36.960 terms of the volume of electronic surveillance that was carried 0:41:36.960 --> 0:41:39.759 out of a period of time, and again without sort 0:41:39.800 --> 0:41:42.719 of digging into the depths of that, as you know, 0:41:42.880 --> 0:41:46.000 that's you know, that's pretty complicated stuff. It's not stuff 0:41:46.040 --> 0:41:49.040 you get, you know, it's it's hard to get. It's 0:41:49.040 --> 0:41:52.960 a very high bar and justification and then actually managing 0:41:53.080 --> 0:41:55.040 that stuff and when you're talking about the volume of 0:41:55.320 --> 0:41:59.040 you know, of electronic material that we were dealing with, 0:41:59.160 --> 0:42:01.279 some of the people and the scene so never got 0:42:01.400 --> 0:42:05.320 the accolades should be you know, hell up high because 0:42:05.600 --> 0:42:09.440 as you know, managing that kind of you know, information 0:42:09.600 --> 0:42:11.600 and going through it and listening to it twenty four 0:42:11.640 --> 0:42:15.160 to seven is highly challenging. So that was one of 0:42:15.200 --> 0:42:18.000 the big things. You know. Another one was the ability 0:42:18.120 --> 0:42:20.239 of you know, some of our people and again just 0:42:20.360 --> 0:42:24.880 coming back to talking to people, and even some of 0:42:25.000 --> 0:42:28.960 these the people that we were talking to were were 0:42:29.239 --> 0:42:34.360 you know, the hardest, hardest criminals in this country. You know, 0:42:34.400 --> 0:42:36.080 at the end of the day, a lot of them 0:42:36.360 --> 0:42:38.040 you can actually have a conversation with. 0:42:38.120 --> 0:42:40.799 You again, that communication, Yeah, if. 0:42:40.719 --> 0:42:43.360 You actually just give people respect and give them a 0:42:43.400 --> 0:42:47.200 bit of time. And I'm not saying all of them, 0:42:47.239 --> 0:42:50.040 as you know, there's some that you wouldn't waste your 0:42:50.120 --> 0:42:52.200 time on, but you know, some of the some of 0:42:52.239 --> 0:42:54.960 these people are actually you know, you can have a 0:42:55.040 --> 0:42:58.000 conversation with him. There's kind of like a mutual respect. 0:42:59.040 --> 0:43:01.360 So one of the really you know, important things that 0:43:01.400 --> 0:43:04.640 happened during that time was that they actually recruited some 0:43:04.760 --> 0:43:07.040 people and came on board and actually you know, gave 0:43:07.120 --> 0:43:12.720 evidence against their associates. So that was a really important 0:43:12.760 --> 0:43:14.440 part of it as well. And I think that came 0:43:14.520 --> 0:43:16.640 from the quality of a lot of the investigators that 0:43:16.719 --> 0:43:19.960 we had and the team who had those abilities to actually, 0:43:20.400 --> 0:43:23.120 you know, to actually communicate with with you know, some 0:43:23.360 --> 0:43:25.600 pretty serious crooks at the end of the day. 0:43:27.080 --> 0:43:30.720 I don't think you can underestimate that ability for people 0:43:30.840 --> 0:43:34.840 to be able to communicate and cultivate relationships with people 0:43:34.880 --> 0:43:37.560 to get information and we're talking criminal informants here, but 0:43:38.200 --> 0:43:41.000 there's some people that have from law enforcement have a 0:43:41.120 --> 0:43:43.799 natural aptitude for it and it can make a world 0:43:43.840 --> 0:43:46.160 of difference in investigations of that nature. 0:43:46.920 --> 0:43:49.360 It is a bit of a dying art. But you know, 0:43:49.440 --> 0:43:52.480 back in the back in the olden days, you know, 0:43:52.640 --> 0:43:54.400 I talked about the olden days, and you know, in 0:43:55.239 --> 0:43:58.040 the eighties you did actually get out on the town 0:43:58.080 --> 0:44:00.880 a little bit more and talk to talk to people. 0:44:01.080 --> 0:44:04.320 And that's gone now, you know. And for some reasons 0:44:04.800 --> 0:44:07.440 that's a good thing, and you know, for other reasons 0:44:07.520 --> 0:44:09.239 it's not a great thing. But you know, again, I 0:44:09.280 --> 0:44:11.360 think that's just one of the challenges of modern policing 0:44:11.520 --> 0:44:15.759 is how you kind of breage that gap where, you know, 0:44:16.200 --> 0:44:19.719 in teaching our younger people how to actually communicate with 0:44:20.360 --> 0:44:22.480 with with people on the other side of the tracks, 0:44:24.160 --> 0:44:26.760 because a lot of them don't do very. 0:44:26.640 --> 0:44:30.080 Well, No they don't. And we had that was identified 0:44:30.120 --> 0:44:32.319 as a problem in the Royal Commission we had up 0:44:32.360 --> 0:44:36.040 here in New South Wales police and informant relationships and 0:44:36.080 --> 0:44:41.719 all that. But in my time involved post Royal Commission, 0:44:42.239 --> 0:44:45.000 we're very accountable in the communications that we had with 0:44:45.640 --> 0:44:49.080 criminal informants. We had to document it and it was painful, 0:44:49.239 --> 0:44:52.440 like every time you virtually every time you're speaking to them, 0:44:52.560 --> 0:44:55.120 documenting it and all that. It was painful at the time, 0:44:55.239 --> 0:44:57.000 but what I see down the track when it came 0:44:57.080 --> 0:45:00.439 through the courts, it was great. The barristers are things, Okay, 0:45:00.520 --> 0:45:02.960 what's gone here? Is something shocky gone on here? And 0:45:03.080 --> 0:45:05.120 you produce all the records. This is every time I've 0:45:05.160 --> 0:45:08.040 spoken to the informant, this is what the informant told me. 0:45:08.160 --> 0:45:11.840 And moving on from there with the what we know 0:45:12.040 --> 0:45:14.440 is the Melbourne Gangland War, how long did that go 0:45:14.600 --> 0:45:14.800 on for? 0:45:17.840 --> 0:45:23.920 Well, it had started well before Piranha started, so you 0:45:24.000 --> 0:45:26.320 know it would have started in the early two thousands 0:45:26.400 --> 0:45:30.520 and you know, probably for at least five five years 0:45:30.560 --> 0:45:32.840 after that, I would think, you know, it would be 0:45:32.880 --> 0:45:35.200 at least five years and then you know, obviously you 0:45:35.320 --> 0:45:39.680 talk about how things now long things take to work 0:45:39.719 --> 0:45:42.080 through the courts. But yeah, I would say certainly there 0:45:42.200 --> 0:45:45.960 was five years of it with Piranha. 0:45:46.120 --> 0:45:48.520 The task force that was set up. How many police 0:45:48.560 --> 0:45:51.040 were attached to that at its highest. 0:45:50.920 --> 0:45:53.800 Well, I would say we started off with from memory, 0:45:53.840 --> 0:45:57.120 we started off with about ten or twelve in the 0:45:57.360 --> 0:45:58.960 in the very early days, and then it went up 0:45:59.000 --> 0:46:01.560 to about sixty years I think. So it was you know, 0:46:01.719 --> 0:46:05.320 and that's a sizeable task forces, you know, in Australian terms, 0:46:07.960 --> 0:46:10.000 it would have been up around those numbers. 0:46:10.160 --> 0:46:14.239 Yeah, that's that's big numbers when it ended. Can you 0:46:14.320 --> 0:46:17.680 put a point on when the war ended, as we 0:46:17.840 --> 0:46:20.600 describe as a war and how many people were killed 0:46:20.719 --> 0:46:22.239 or got the tributed in that course? 0:46:22.400 --> 0:46:22.960 I couldn't tell you. 0:46:24.080 --> 0:46:24.480 I can't. 0:46:24.840 --> 0:46:28.839 I can't recall from from memory. But but pretty much 0:46:28.920 --> 0:46:32.279 everyone either ended up dead or locked up one or 0:46:32.280 --> 0:46:34.400 the other. And you know, certainly in the case of 0:46:34.480 --> 0:46:36.200 Carl Williams, he was locked up and then he ended 0:46:36.280 --> 0:46:40.719 up dead. But that's pretty much, you know. It was 0:46:40.800 --> 0:46:43.680 actually the fact that we locked all the players up 0:46:43.960 --> 0:46:45.640 at the end of the day or they were either 0:46:45.800 --> 0:46:47.480 they'd either already been killed. 0:46:47.360 --> 0:46:50.319 Or they've been killed or been locked up, and they 0:46:50.400 --> 0:46:51.320 probably put an end to it. 0:46:51.640 --> 0:46:51.840 It was. 0:46:52.080 --> 0:46:55.480 It was a fascinating job and it certainly captured the 0:46:55.600 --> 0:46:59.360 attention of the nation. With the Underbelly, the first Underbelly 0:46:59.400 --> 0:47:02.400 series that the played out in it was that up 0:47:02.440 --> 0:47:04.800 and running at the time of the investigations or that 0:47:04.920 --> 0:47:06.360 came after the investigations. 0:47:06.680 --> 0:47:10.400 Well it actually it actually came after the investigations, but 0:47:10.520 --> 0:47:14.400 they started filming that and I was I was again 0:47:14.480 --> 0:47:18.520 privileged to be part of that and actually was was 0:47:18.640 --> 0:47:24.399 given permission within within Victoria Police to actually act as 0:47:24.440 --> 0:47:28.480 the technical advisor to to that show, which was which 0:47:28.640 --> 0:47:31.680 was really interesting. It wouldn't happen, it wouldn't happen now, 0:47:31.760 --> 0:47:36.279 but different times. But that's where I got to know 0:47:36.320 --> 0:47:39.040 a lot of people in that, you know, and in 0:47:39.200 --> 0:47:44.960 the well in the film and television industry, I suppose 0:47:45.080 --> 0:47:47.800 because a lot of the you know, the top people 0:47:48.200 --> 0:47:51.960 in Australian film and television worked behind that, as you know, 0:47:52.040 --> 0:47:56.400 because you were involved in it. And so that was 0:47:56.520 --> 0:48:01.080 really really interesting experience to to be there from the 0:48:01.239 --> 0:48:05.440 start with with Underbelly and to work with the writers 0:48:06.800 --> 0:48:12.000 and the producers from the start of that. And you know, 0:48:12.080 --> 0:48:15.400 I remember one of the one of the greatest takeaways 0:48:15.440 --> 0:48:18.040 I had from that is a thing that I, you know, 0:48:18.160 --> 0:48:21.600 I maintained today is that the truth is truth is 0:48:21.719 --> 0:48:25.680 stranger than fiction. I remember sitting in writers' rooms with 0:48:25.960 --> 0:48:29.239 you know, some of the best writers in Australian television 0:48:29.960 --> 0:48:32.000 and seeing their jewels at the table when we were 0:48:32.040 --> 0:48:34.399 telling them stories about things that had happened, and these 0:48:34.440 --> 0:48:38.040 are ultimately things that made it into into the television show. 0:48:38.320 --> 0:48:40.160 And they were, you know, saying, oh, we couldn't make 0:48:40.160 --> 0:48:42.080 this up. You know that we couldn't. We couldn't, we 0:48:42.160 --> 0:48:44.799 couldn't write this. And that's you know, that's one thing 0:48:44.840 --> 0:48:46.719 that's actually stuck with me. There's a lot of things 0:48:46.760 --> 0:48:49.000 that we see in the war exposed that you couldn't 0:48:49.400 --> 0:48:53.520 make up. So that was really, you know, insightful for 0:48:53.640 --> 0:48:55.680 me thinking that, yeah, a lot of a lot of 0:48:55.719 --> 0:48:58.920 what we do see is actually stranger than fiction. 0:48:59.520 --> 0:49:04.320 It seems. And I think you've got permission to consult 0:49:04.440 --> 0:49:08.160 with the Underbelly. When they did the series on Underbelly 0:49:08.239 --> 0:49:11.960 Badness on the Terry Falcon murder, senior police approached me 0:49:12.280 --> 0:49:16.440 and said, look, Underbelly writers are doing this. We're happy 0:49:16.480 --> 0:49:19.360 for them to sit down speak with you and all that. 0:49:19.520 --> 0:49:24.440 So I had permission also to provide information to them. Sadly, 0:49:25.000 --> 0:49:27.080 about three weeks before it was due to go on, 0:49:27.239 --> 0:49:30.560 they've canceled that permission and I've said, well, you know, 0:49:30.920 --> 0:49:34.880 I've already given all the details. They've followed me around 0:49:34.920 --> 0:49:36.960 it at your direction, and now you're telling me not 0:49:37.080 --> 0:49:40.840 to speak to them, But my experience with it, I 0:49:40.960 --> 0:49:43.800 know in speaking to you, and I got to the 0:49:43.840 --> 0:49:46.800 point where I said, look to the underbelly writers, you 0:49:46.920 --> 0:49:50.719 can't be around while we're working. Step away from it, 0:49:50.840 --> 0:49:55.799 and I'll give you my time after work. And they 0:49:55.840 --> 0:49:59.560 would often say, well, yeah, we're taking up so much 0:49:59.640 --> 0:50:01.759 of your time. I said, that's fine. And the thing 0:50:01.840 --> 0:50:06.880 that helped me get through that was working with creative people. 0:50:07.440 --> 0:50:11.080 I found it refreshing because police is so dark, heavy, 0:50:11.520 --> 0:50:15.160 and you're stuck in this world, and then you sat 0:50:15.239 --> 0:50:17.440 down with the writers and spending time in the writer's 0:50:17.560 --> 0:50:20.480 room as you described, I found it quite refreshing, and 0:50:20.560 --> 0:50:23.640 that balanced out the day to day police work I was. 0:50:24.600 --> 0:50:27.520 I still am in awe of some of those people, 0:50:27.600 --> 0:50:29.680 some of those writers, you know, I have the sort 0:50:29.719 --> 0:50:32.040 of privilege of working with some of them still today. 0:50:32.680 --> 0:50:34.200 And one i'll give a shout out to I know 0:50:34.560 --> 0:50:38.319 he's mate of yours, Greg Hadrick. He's a good friend 0:50:38.360 --> 0:50:42.440 of us. And Greg was one of the main guys 0:50:42.560 --> 0:50:49.120 and his ability to absorb information and then to convert 0:50:49.239 --> 0:50:53.040 that into a script or a story overnight, you know, 0:50:53.719 --> 0:50:58.120 it was it still leaves me, leaves me and if 0:50:58.280 --> 0:51:00.640 his skill and you know, Greg was one of one 0:51:00.680 --> 0:51:02.359 of a number of writers and they were all good, 0:51:02.400 --> 0:51:03.640 and a lot of them had come out of that 0:51:03.960 --> 0:51:07.239 Neighbors and Harme and Away kind of environment where you know, 0:51:07.480 --> 0:51:11.680 there's a constant churn, and I think that was kind 0:51:11.680 --> 0:51:14.440 of where a lot of those riders cut their teeth 0:51:14.440 --> 0:51:16.839 as well, you know, talking about where we cut our teeth, 0:51:16.920 --> 0:51:18.640 you know, just on that constant churn. 0:51:19.000 --> 0:51:22.160 The constant pressure. I was surprised that the depth and 0:51:22.440 --> 0:51:25.600 the team that Greg had and I would fight often 0:51:25.680 --> 0:51:28.160 joke with them that they delve so deeply. I said, 0:51:28.200 --> 0:51:31.000 I need you guys on the strikeforce to work as 0:51:31.040 --> 0:51:35.399 my analysts, like they would dig up things and come 0:51:35.480 --> 0:51:38.160 back with things. But look, it's an interesting experience and 0:51:38.200 --> 0:51:40.640 it's good sitting down speaking to a fellow cop who 0:51:40.719 --> 0:51:45.000 has that experience, because it's something that's rather unique in 0:51:45.560 --> 0:51:46.200 the world of police. 0:51:46.280 --> 0:51:48.040 Well, if I could just say as well, I mean, 0:51:48.320 --> 0:51:50.239 I know you've had experience of this, but in the 0:51:50.400 --> 0:51:52.760 in the in the production phase, so when they're actually 0:51:52.840 --> 0:51:56.640 filming things, you know, one thing that actually just just 0:51:57.160 --> 0:51:58.680 I used to think I wish I could have these 0:51:58.719 --> 0:52:04.399 people working for me doing doing warrant planning because they're 0:52:04.440 --> 0:52:09.280 planning logistics and execution of their plans. You know, everything 0:52:09.360 --> 0:52:11.399 is planned down because you know, time is money, as 0:52:11.440 --> 0:52:15.000 you know, in that industry, and the planning that goes 0:52:15.040 --> 0:52:19.480 into it, the communications and logistics is just it's just 0:52:19.600 --> 0:52:23.280 first rate. So yeah, big shout out to that industry. 0:52:23.880 --> 0:52:27.680 Yeah, interesting experience. We might we might take a break 0:52:27.760 --> 0:52:30.759 here here, Andrew, and when we get back, I want 0:52:30.800 --> 0:52:33.279 to talk about a couple of other cases. We'll talk 0:52:33.320 --> 0:52:36.520 about the brutal rape and murder. You're a dissy Dixon 0:52:37.160 --> 0:52:40.239 stalked on the streets of Melbourne. I'll get your thoughts on, 0:52:40.680 --> 0:52:43.759 get your thoughts on policing, and I'm sure we're going 0:52:43.800 --> 0:52:45.600 to have a lot more, a lot more to talk 0:52:45.600 --> 0:52:47.960 about when we get back. OK. Thanks, cheers,