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Speaker 1: The public has had a long held fascination with detectives.

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Speaker 1: Detective see aside of life. The average person is never

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Speaker 1: exposed her I spent thirty four years as a cop.

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Speaker 1: For twenty five of those years I was catching killers.

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Speaker 1: That's what I did for a living. I was a

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Speaker 1: homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead,

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Speaker 1: I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated.

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Speaker 1: The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories

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Speaker 1: from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw

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Speaker 1: and honest, just like the people I talk to. Some

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Speaker 1: of the content and language might be confronting. That's because

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Speaker 1: no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged.

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Speaker 1: Join me now as I take you into this world. Today,

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Speaker 1: I had a conversation with former Victorian homicide detective called

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Speaker 1: Andrew Stamper. Andrew led some of the biggest investigations in

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Speaker 1: the country, including Melbourne's deadly gangland war. Andrew was one

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Speaker 1: of the leading investigators of Strikeforce Piranha, a police task

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Speaker 1: force that looked into the notorious underworld killings and drug syndicates,

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Speaker 1: involving infamous figures like Carl Williams. During that time Andrew

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Speaker 1: put away two murderers for the killing of Lewis Kane.

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Speaker 1: He also takes us inside the twenty seventeen Lone Wolf

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Speaker 1: Flinderstreet attack, where a car was deliberately driven in the

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Speaker 1: busy Christmas crowds, injuring nineteen innocent people and killing one person.

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Speaker 1: Having spent more than forty years with the police, Andrew

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Speaker 1: is a real deal as far as detectives go, and

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Speaker 1: he's someone I would have liked to have worked with.

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Speaker 1: Andrew Stamper, thank you for coming on I Catch Killers.

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Speaker 2: Thanks for having me.

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Speaker 1: Well, it's good talking to a former cop, and it's

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Speaker 1: really this is the genesis of what this whole podcast

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Speaker 1: started about. THO I speaking to people that had worked

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Speaker 1: homicide cases. So it's good to get back to our roots,

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Speaker 1: so to speak.

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Speaker 2: Yep, I agree.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, you spent forty years in the in the police.

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Speaker 1: What's your takeaway from it? We're looking back now you've

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Speaker 1: probably been out long enough to have time to reflect

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Speaker 1: on it.

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Speaker 2: On my takeaway as it was a privilege, I think,

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Speaker 2: you know, someone one of our former chief commissioners said

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Speaker 2: you you know you've got a front seat to the

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Speaker 2: best best show on Earth and I honestly feel that

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Speaker 2: it sometimes in some of the roles I was able

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Speaker 2: to do, I feel immense privilege and also a great

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Speaker 2: deal of pride as well when I think about the

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Speaker 2: people that I've worked with over the years, and you know,

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Speaker 2: and knowing how committed they've been to keep in the

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Speaker 2: community safe too. So yeah, that's my overwhelming thoughts.

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Speaker 1: I like sitting down speaking to people that have spent

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Speaker 1: as long as you have in the in the police,

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Speaker 1: at the sharp end of the police, and you're always

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Speaker 1: in there with your sleeves rolled up doing the work

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Speaker 1: that you come away from that. And I think you've

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Speaker 1: mentioned the word privilege, and I look back at my

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Speaker 1: career and there is a privilege, isn't it.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, I mean, look, probably the same as You've

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Speaker 2: got a few bruises over the journey, and I've certainly

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Speaker 2: got that, and I know you do too, But you know, holistically,

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Speaker 2: it's been a pleasure and privilege.

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Speaker 1: The other thing you said, it's like, or you attributed

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Speaker 1: to someone else's comment, but a front row seat into

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Speaker 1: some of the most interesting things you could possibly find

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Speaker 1: yourself at. I often felt that in cases, if they

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Speaker 1: were high profile cases, you would think, Yeah, everyone's interested,

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Speaker 1: what's behind that police tape? What's going on? What are

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Speaker 1: the police doing? And here you are in the thick

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Speaker 1: of it.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's life in the golfish bowl, isn't it. And

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Speaker 2: you know, certainly there's been a number of cases over

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Speaker 2: my career where you really feel that you're in the

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Speaker 2: Golfish bol and a lot of cases where you're really

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Speaker 2: working hard to stay one step ahead of the media

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Speaker 2: who are running their own investigations as well. And you know,

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Speaker 2: that was a lesson that I learned a number of

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Speaker 2: years ago to you know, I hope that's one of

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Speaker 2: the things that enabled me later in my career to

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Speaker 2: actually work more collaboratively with the media on a lot

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Speaker 2: of those you know, those high impact cases.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, Well, with the high profile comes a different type

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Speaker 1: of pressure, doesn't it when you're heading up an investigation

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Speaker 1: or you're involved in an investigation. But I've followed your career,

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Speaker 1: there's always interest. When I was in the cops, what's

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Speaker 1: happening down in Melbourne and I saw different things, But

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Speaker 1: in the times I saw you in the media, you

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Speaker 1: always seem to have a purpose to what you were saying.

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Speaker 2: Well, I think there has to be and you don't

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Speaker 2: just do it for the sake of it, you know.

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Speaker 2: And for me engaging with the media, that was either

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Speaker 2: the purpose, you know, it was either in community, in

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Speaker 2: community information or reassurance or trying to gain some strategic

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Speaker 2: benefit for the investigation. And I think that was always

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Speaker 2: a challenge early days in an investigation, certainly sitting in

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Speaker 2: the position that I did in later years in a

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Speaker 2: leadership position there to think how, you know, how we

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Speaker 2: you know, how we could leverage that most effectively.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I see it. I see it as as a tool,

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Speaker 1: a tool that you know, in the kit that you

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Speaker 1: have to solve a crime. You can certainly certainly use

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Speaker 1: the media. Your policing career a little bit different from

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Speaker 1: most Australian cops because you started your policing career in

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Speaker 1: the in the UK. Tell us about that.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, five years as a bobby and just to the

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Speaker 2: west of London in an area car Wiltshire there, and

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Speaker 2: you know that was that was fantastic, you know, I

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Speaker 2: grew up in the UK. Albeit, I you know, I'm

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Speaker 2: always pains to explain that I am Australian, particularly at

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Speaker 2: times such as now in the crickets, but yeah, I

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Speaker 2: did five years over there, and you know that was

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Speaker 2: very different starting off in the mid eighties where he

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Speaker 2: was still on foot. You started off on foot patrol

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Speaker 2: and as a nineteen year old, you know, walking into

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Speaker 2: people's homes. You know, I'd come from a small village

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Speaker 2: in the north of England and suddenly I'm talking to

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Speaker 2: people who are twice as old as me and had

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Speaker 2: life experience and trying to tell them how to live

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Speaker 2: their lives and a lot of early lessons there. You know,

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Speaker 2: one of my old sergeants who was a pretty fearsome character.

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Speaker 2: You know, he used to give you these old adages,

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Speaker 2: you know, like to be a good copy, you've got

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Speaker 2: to have more faces in town hall clock and you know,

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Speaker 2: that's one thing that's that's stuck with me that you

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Speaker 2: really have to adapt your approach or your communication style

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Speaker 2: to the person you're dealing with. And that was something

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Speaker 2: that really really stuck with me all of my career

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Speaker 2: that you know, you've got to communicate with people on

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Speaker 2: their level, and that could be you know, talking to

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Speaker 2: someone who's a multi millionaire and to someone who's living

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Speaker 2: on the straight. But you know, another thing that that

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Speaker 2: same sergeant told me is that you know that you

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Speaker 2: treat everyone equally. You treat everyone with respect, and you

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Speaker 2: know you start off from a position of respect, you know,

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Speaker 2: not notwithstanding where they come from or what their status

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Speaker 2: is in life. You treat everyone the same. And you know,

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Speaker 2: those two things I think have stayed with me from

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Speaker 2: from those early days in policing.

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Speaker 1: It's good advice, isn't it. That's very much formative views

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Speaker 1: those early early times in policing. And you're fortunate enough

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Speaker 1: if you get a good mental pointing you in the

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Speaker 1: right direction. I think that can shape your whole career.

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Speaker 1: The experience you get very early in policing.

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Speaker 2: Oh absolutely. And you know I can still quite all

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Speaker 2: of those little nuggets of gold that that you know,

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Speaker 2: that particular sergeant used to used to drill into all

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Speaker 2: of us probation as we as we were at the time.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, life is a bobby and you know a lot

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Speaker 1: of our perception of what goes on in the UK

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Speaker 1: is from the show The Bill. That was a big one.

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Speaker 1: That was very much watching the life of life of

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Speaker 1: cops walking the boat, not having a weapon, and you

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Speaker 1: would quite often it was very much community based policing.

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Speaker 1: That was my observation of it one out without without

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Speaker 1: the firearm. What were what was the different nature of

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Speaker 1: policing that we don't follow that path in Australia. What

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Speaker 1: was it about the UK policing that allowed that type

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Speaker 1: of policing.

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Speaker 2: I think there was a cultural thing, I think that

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Speaker 2: society in the UK at that time. And I stress

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Speaker 2: at that time because I think it's changed now. There

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Speaker 2: was there was guns were were far less common and certainly,

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Speaker 2: you know, certainly the crooks for one of the better

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Speaker 2: better terms you probably were less less less armed than

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Speaker 2: they were here and you know, and there's there's a

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Speaker 2: cultural piece to that somewhere, but it was just always

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Speaker 2: an acceptance that the British police weren't armed and there

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Speaker 2: seemed to be this kind of unwritten code, I suppose,

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Speaker 2: between between the crooks and the cops in the UK.

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Speaker 2: You know, and I'm talking back in the eighties and

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Speaker 2: as I say, things have changed a lot now, but

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Speaker 2: you certainly learned to think on your feet a lot more.

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Speaker 2: And particularly as I was as a nineteen year old,

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Speaker 2: as I say, just green, you know, you know, just

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Speaker 2: come out of training school and my first role was

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Speaker 2: as a you know, as a community, Bobby. So walking

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Speaker 2: around what you know, what we would call like a

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Speaker 2: housing commissioner state or you know, you know, a ministry

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Speaker 2: of housing kind of a state. And that was you know,

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Speaker 2: three shifts, twenty four hours and sometimes on night shift,

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Speaker 2: three o'clock in the morning, you're walking around in the

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Speaker 2: little winter by yourself. Occasionally some of the some of

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Speaker 2: the guys that were driving the cars had come and

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Speaker 2: pick you up just to defrost you. And I'll just

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Speaker 2: get you in the car and just turn the heter

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Speaker 2: on and and uh and just you know, come some

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Speaker 2: life back into you and then you know, chuck you

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Speaker 2: out because the sergeant to be coming around, and you know,

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Speaker 2: the expectation was that you'd be you be on your patch,

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Speaker 2: you know, and but yeah, unverwhelmingly, I think it was

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Speaker 2: just learning to think on your feet and talk your

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Speaker 2: way through situations a lot, a lot more. And that's

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Speaker 2: a very important tool here as you know, you know,

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Speaker 2: very often I get the privilege of speaking to young

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Speaker 2: cops and one of the things I, you know, I

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Speaker 2: do tell them is learn to talk to people. You know,

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Speaker 2: just have conversations with people. Because in the world the

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Speaker 2: way it is now, and particularly with policing where it's

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Speaker 2: just I must become a response type profession. Just take

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Speaker 2: the time to talk to people. It's one of the

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Speaker 2: greatest arts that couples have.

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Speaker 1: Well that's a good advice to pass on because it's

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Speaker 1: amazing what you get when you do actually sit down

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Speaker 1: and talk to people. And this is something that kept

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Speaker 1: my interest in policing too. You do get to speak

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Speaker 1: to a whole range of people. I was in the

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Speaker 1: course of my duties speaking to world leaders and people

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Speaker 1: that were living on the streets and flyblay and it

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Speaker 1: was but that communication is crucial. And I look at

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Speaker 1: all the cops that I respect, they had that ability

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Speaker 1: to communicate at different levels and often it breaks down

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Speaker 1: that barrier.

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Speaker 2: Yep. Absolutely, And you know, and that's something I've always

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Speaker 2: I've always prided myself in and just treating everyone with

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Speaker 2: respect kind of help me in good stead. I think

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Speaker 2: for the forty years that I was doing.

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Speaker 1: Okay, before we take you out of the voice and

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Speaker 1: bring you crashing into Victorian ployees in some of the

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Speaker 1: information just preparing for the podcast, so I see that

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Speaker 1: at one point in time, part of your duties was

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Speaker 1: protecting a UK cabinet minister high on the r IRA

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Speaker 1: hit list. What was the backstory there? That seems like

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Speaker 1: an interesting role.

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Speaker 2: Yeaholved in just before I came over back to Australia.

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Speaker 2: As it was, I did twelve months in a VRP

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Speaker 2: protection team for a fellow who was at the time

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Speaker 2: the British Minister for Northern Ireland. And you know a

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Speaker 2: lot of people forget about about, you know, how serious

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Speaker 2: the Northern Ireland issue issue was. And in the in

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Speaker 2: the mid eighties or mid to mid to late eighties

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Speaker 2: in the UK it was, you know, it's really at

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Speaker 2: its highest where we were talking Margaret Thatcher was the

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Speaker 2: Prime Minister and yah, there was absolutely not I've lost

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Speaker 2: whatsoever between you know, the Irish Republicans and the British

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Speaker 2: British government. So that was a really interesting time because

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Speaker 2: I was kind of thrust into this really high security

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Speaker 2: environment and we talk about going from a non armed

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Speaker 2: situation and I then went into a situation where I

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Speaker 2: was heavily armed and you know, talking about driving around

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Speaker 2: country lanes in range rovers with some serious weaponry as

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Speaker 2: a twenty two twenty three year old. So I'd done

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Speaker 2: all the firearms training over there, and the threat from

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Speaker 2: the IRA was very real. They actually did. There was

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Speaker 2: I think three people it was who who were initially

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Speaker 2: convicted of conspiracy to murder and this was all the

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Speaker 2: time that I was looking after him. And then you know,

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Speaker 2: ironically they were acquitted due to comments made by the

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Speaker 2: subject that we were protecting, who made comments in the

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Speaker 2: media which were deemed a highly prejudicial and and you

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Speaker 2: know the cases, you know, they were they were acquitted

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Speaker 2: on appeal. So that was quite ironic really that the

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Speaker 2: person that we would try to protect screwed it up ultimately.

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Speaker 2: But yeah, they were really serious about it, and you know,

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Speaker 2: they were highly highly trained, highly affective soldiers. You know,

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Speaker 2: they weren't some rag tag army like some street gang.

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Speaker 2: They were highly effective soldiers and they did their work,

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Speaker 2: They did their reconnaissance and you know, and then the

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Speaker 2: reconnaissance team would pass it on to onto you know,

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Speaker 2: onto a hit team. And yeah, so it was interesting times,

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Speaker 2: you know, just just being in that environment and yeah,

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Speaker 2: just was it was actually you know good to come

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Speaker 2: to Australia and kind of get out of that where

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Speaker 2: things were.

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Speaker 1: More related would be very tense. I've done close personal

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Speaker 1: prote action in situations like that. But not with that

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Speaker 1: threat of the IRA. And as you describe them, they're

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Speaker 1: not they're not part time as they're professional and if

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Speaker 1: they've got a target, they're going to go after them tactically.

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Speaker 1: So yeah, you would have had to be on your taes.

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Speaker 1: So is that why you have? I dug deep enough

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Speaker 1: to work out why you've come to Australia.

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Speaker 2: The look, I mean, I was born here. You know,

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Speaker 2: my parents are English, they came over here, went back,

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Speaker 2: So I was born here and just always been my

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Speaker 2: ambition to come back. So that was really a way

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Speaker 2: to you know, to you know, I took on that

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Speaker 2: role knowing that I was coming here in twelve months

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Speaker 2: time and so that was really you know, nothing to

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Speaker 2: do with you know, I wasn't scaping that or anything

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Speaker 2: like that, but yeah, it was it was you know,

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Speaker 2: it was hairy times as well. Again, as you know,

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Speaker 2: you learn something through all of these roles and you

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Speaker 2: take that with you during your career and you know,

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Speaker 2: so that concept of personal and operational security has always

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Speaker 2: been paramount as well.

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Speaker 1: I think having done tactical policing myself, I think it

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Speaker 1: boted very well for working in criminal investigation when you

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Speaker 1: might be doing the tactical stuff yourself at that stage,

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Speaker 1: but you had the communication, you understand their capabilities and

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Speaker 1: different things, so it's all about getting the experience. Did

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Speaker 1: you come over to Australia with the intent to join

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Speaker 1: the police?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, ok, I'd actually come here on holiday and I

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Speaker 2: did all the recruiting interviews while I was here on holiday.

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Speaker 2: And they at that time here in Victoria in nineteen

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Speaker 2: eighty nine, it would have been a lot of people

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Speaker 2: that they just changed the superannuation scheme and so a

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Speaker 2: lot of the old timers left under the old scheme,

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Speaker 2: and so there was a massive recruiting drive and you

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Speaker 2: know I didn't know that, but you know, they were

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Speaker 2: pushing people through, you know, very quickly, and unlike today,

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Speaker 2: there was a there was a you know, there was

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Speaker 2: a vast pool of applicants who wanted to do it,

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Speaker 2: which is a different story these days. But yeah, so

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Speaker 2: I came here, did all the testing and interviews and

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Speaker 2: they said, you know, come back in six months and

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Speaker 2: you can go straight in. So I was pretty much

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Speaker 2: back within six months.

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Speaker 1: Okay, did you get any the credit or allowances for

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Speaker 1: your experience or you know, you had to start fresh

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Speaker 1: and in the in the academy learned how to march.

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Speaker 2: And yeah, and you know I've used this, I've used

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Speaker 2: this analogy before. But back at the Academy in those days,

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Speaker 2: they still did a thing here which was called fatigues.

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Speaker 2: So if you lived in the academy, I don't know

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Speaker 2: what it was like at Gulban back in your day,

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Speaker 2: but if you lived in the academy, you had to

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Speaker 2: have a job and you got allocated a role. So

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Speaker 2: it might be picking letter up, it might be washing

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Speaker 2: dishes after dinner. And my role was sweeping the round

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Speaker 2: about it at the front of the Police Academy. So

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Speaker 2: you know, I'd gone from looking after the British Minister

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Speaker 2: for noln Island to sweeping the roundabout the front of

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Speaker 2: the Police Academy in very quick time. But you know, again,

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Speaker 2: out of that, you know, I remember those times and

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Speaker 2: the humbling moments where you kind of think, you know,

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Speaker 2: we'll just put your head down, just do what you've

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Speaker 2: got to do, you know, just keep pushing, pushing forward.

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Speaker 2: And you know you learn a lot from those moments

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Speaker 2: too that you know, you could actually throw your arms

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Speaker 2: up in the air and say I'm too good for this,

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Speaker 2: or whatever. But you know, I think you just push

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Speaker 2: through and just just think, well, yeah, there's a goal

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Speaker 2: at the end of the day, and this is you know,

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Speaker 2: this is part of the one of the hurdles I've

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Speaker 2: got to jump to get.

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Speaker 1: There, most definitely, And it's a good attitude to have.

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Speaker 1: It's all learning process. You're paying your dues. I think

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Speaker 1: that's very very important in an organization like a police force,

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Speaker 1: that you understand that, yeah, just learn your way, learn

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Speaker 1: all the things. It might be doing point duty of

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Speaker 1: the traffic accident, which is probably not what you're aspiring to,

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Speaker 1: but it's all part of the learning process.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, I do stress that they don't do those

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Speaker 2: things anymore.

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Speaker 1: So we both had a conversation before this and we

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Speaker 1: were talking about policing and trying to encourage police because

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Speaker 1: the bigger pill you've got, the better people you can select.

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Speaker 1: And it saddens me. I see across the country police

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Speaker 1: forces are struggling to attract recruits and yeah, it's okay,

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Speaker 1: we better not tell them they've got to sweep the

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Speaker 1: roundabout if they if they.

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Speaker 2: Know, no, not and not to you know, not to

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Speaker 2: take away you know how hard the job is. But

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Speaker 2: it's very very satisfying and very fulfilling as well.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, what what steered you towards the career in detectives.

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Speaker 2: I think I've been here for a number of years

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Speaker 2: and just did a few different roles in general duties

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Speaker 2: or you know, in regional policing, and then one of

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Speaker 2: my first postings was was in an area called paran

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Speaker 2: here in Melbourne, which is is pretty much next to

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Speaker 2: sin Kilda as well. So I've worked at the support

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Speaker 2: group it was called at the time, where they did

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Speaker 2: a lot of the lower level drugs investigations and you

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Speaker 2: know another you know, I suppose middle level crimes, you know,

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Speaker 2: I suppose that the ones that the detectives weren't doing,

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Speaker 2: and so I did that for a little while. And

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Speaker 2: one of the one of the great things about those

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Speaker 2: units and still is, is that they're a bit of

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Speaker 2: a breeding ground for new detectives. The junior people like

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Speaker 2: I was come in, but the sergeants there tend to

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Speaker 2: be people, you know, who've been detective, you know, either

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Speaker 2: been off at the crime squad's got promoted and then

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Speaker 2: are coming into these units. So you're actually getting led

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Speaker 2: by people who've got that background. So you know, it

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Speaker 2: was a really formative time for me. I think here

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Speaker 2: where I decided, yeah, this is what I wanted to do.

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Speaker 2: And there's a few those sergeants there that had come

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Speaker 2: from the robbery squad and the homicide squad, and you

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Speaker 2: kind of just got a taste of those bigger investigations

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Speaker 2: as well, I suppose. So that's where it started for me.

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Speaker 1: Okay, we're going to jump into your career in major

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Speaker 1: crime and being involved in leading some of the country's

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Speaker 1: biggest homicide investigations. But before we do, both former homicide detects,

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Speaker 1: I think it's important we talk about the impact victim

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Speaker 1: homicide has and the devastating that fact it has. And

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Speaker 1: there's a ripple effect homicide, isn't it When one life

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Speaker 1: is taken, it's not just one life destroyed. There's there's

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Speaker 1: multiple lives that are destroyed. What's your your thoughts on

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Speaker 1: homicide investigation in general?

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Speaker 2: Ah, Look, it's it's it doesn't get any tougher. And

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Speaker 2: I think about you know, myself, and I think about

390
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Speaker 2: all the all the other people doing that work, that

391
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Speaker 2: these cases stay with you forever. And I think, ultimately,

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Speaker 2: if I look at why I stepped away, at the

393
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Speaker 2: end of the day, I think, you know it just

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Speaker 2: you know, there's some title of you know, of carrying

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Speaker 2: all that from from over that period of time. You

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Speaker 2: just it's just a weight on your shoulders that you

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Speaker 2: kind of just want some release from. But I mean

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Speaker 2: the reality is, as an investigator in a homicide squads

399
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Speaker 2: in a homicide manner, I should say those those cases

400
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Speaker 2: can take ten years to work through the courts. And

401
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Speaker 2: if you're the lead investigator in those, you carry those

402
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Speaker 2: cases and other cases, you know, so you as you know,

403
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Speaker 2: all your homicide investigators O carry in multiple cases and

404
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Speaker 2: a lot of them can take a long time to

405
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Speaker 2: work through the courts, and you keep that, you know,

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Speaker 2: And this is probably one of the things if I

407
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Speaker 2: could actually change anything, or work towards changing something, it

408
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Speaker 2: would be to take the reliance off the individual a

409
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Speaker 2: little bit more. And you know, I'm talking specifically about

410
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Speaker 2: Victoria here. I think there's too much reliance and too

411
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Speaker 2: much pressure put on what we call the informant here

412
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Speaker 2: in Victoria, who are all things to all people. So

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Speaker 2: you know, they've got to prepare the case, they've got

414
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Speaker 2: to be the liaison with the families, which is a

415
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Speaker 2: very very difficult, you know, very difficult role the court

416
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Speaker 2: liaison prepare the matter for court, and that goes on

417
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Speaker 2: and on and on. If you get a man at

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Speaker 2: the coast of the High Court, then yeah, you look

419
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Speaker 2: at you potentially ten years down the track. That's the

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Speaker 2: one thing that I would like, you know, some focus

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Speaker 2: to be on and just relieving some of that pressure

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Speaker 2: on the individual here. But you know, I think that's

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Speaker 2: the hardest part about homicide. I don't think there's any

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Speaker 2: other cases, and I've investigated pretty much everything else where.

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Speaker 2: They stay with you as long as long as they do.

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Speaker 2: And of course it's not just stay with you in

427
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Speaker 2: a technical sense, or it's an emotional sense too, because

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Speaker 2: most of us, you know, most of us carry a

429
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Speaker 2: little bit you know with this, you know, and just

430
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Speaker 2: through that dealing with the families day to day and

431
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Speaker 2: these manners, you know, it attaches to you.

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Speaker 1: You talked about the pressure on the informant, I know

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Speaker 1: in New South Wales and I'm sure it's in Victoria.

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Speaker 1: It's just the nature of things and resources are limited.

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Speaker 1: Quite often you'd have a big strike force investigating a

436
00:24:57,960 --> 00:25:02,240
Speaker 1: particular murder and then someone's been charged and then Okay,

437
00:25:02,280 --> 00:25:05,480
Speaker 1: well we need to allocate the resources elsewhere and you're

438
00:25:05,560 --> 00:25:08,400
Speaker 1: left You're left there. You used to have a team

439
00:25:08,440 --> 00:25:10,720
Speaker 1: of twenty. Now you've got a team of one or

440
00:25:10,760 --> 00:25:15,120
Speaker 1: two and you've expected to run the matter through the courts.

441
00:25:14,920 --> 00:25:17,800
Speaker 2: And you're expected to help other people with other jobs,

442
00:25:17,840 --> 00:25:21,399
Speaker 2: and you know, and also take on new cases too.

443
00:25:21,480 --> 00:25:25,360
Speaker 1: Yeah, you said in the chat we had the other

444
00:25:25,440 --> 00:25:27,960
Speaker 1: day that in the UK they have a system where

445
00:25:28,000 --> 00:25:31,119
Speaker 1: that what you were saying we should aspire to, they

446
00:25:31,240 --> 00:25:33,520
Speaker 1: had a system in place there where there was a

447
00:25:33,520 --> 00:25:35,920
Speaker 1: little bit less or it was spread around. Once you've

448
00:25:36,000 --> 00:25:39,320
Speaker 1: charged someone, there's more people available to help the matters

449
00:25:39,920 --> 00:25:41,040
Speaker 1: proceed through the courts.

450
00:25:41,160 --> 00:25:43,159
Speaker 2: Yeah. So going back to nineteen eighty nine when I

451
00:25:43,240 --> 00:25:48,640
Speaker 2: left the UK, that there was investigation support teams which

452
00:25:48,680 --> 00:25:52,200
Speaker 2: were generally retired cops. Most cops retire after thirty years

453
00:25:52,240 --> 00:25:55,239
Speaker 2: in the UK, and a lot of them are just

454
00:25:55,440 --> 00:25:58,280
Speaker 2: you know, forty nine to fifty and not ready to

455
00:25:57,880 --> 00:26:02,679
Speaker 2: do nothing. So a lot of them actually finish on

456
00:26:02,680 --> 00:26:05,840
Speaker 2: the Friday is as a as a cop and come

457
00:26:05,880 --> 00:26:09,359
Speaker 2: back on the Monday as an administrative assistance or an

458
00:26:09,400 --> 00:26:15,399
Speaker 2: investigative assistant. And there's not much that they can't do

459
00:26:15,520 --> 00:26:18,520
Speaker 2: that you know, the cop can do is basically only

460
00:26:18,560 --> 00:26:22,399
Speaker 2: the arrest bows that the change. So there was a

461
00:26:22,520 --> 00:26:27,199
Speaker 2: lot of assistance through those areas. You know, looking at

462
00:26:27,240 --> 00:26:32,960
Speaker 2: it practically as a detective, as a as a cop

463
00:26:33,040 --> 00:26:35,080
Speaker 2: on the street, you go out, you make an arrest,

464
00:26:35,119 --> 00:26:38,560
Speaker 2: you bring them back, you'd interview them, then you charge

465
00:26:38,640 --> 00:26:40,720
Speaker 2: them and that would essentially be the last you'd see

466
00:26:40,760 --> 00:26:42,399
Speaker 2: it until it goes to court. There would be a

467
00:26:42,520 --> 00:26:45,639
Speaker 2: whole range of other support services that would put the

468
00:26:45,720 --> 00:26:50,760
Speaker 2: brief together with liaison with the CPS as it is there,

469
00:26:51,000 --> 00:26:53,760
Speaker 2: or the opp as we'd call it here. Yeah, you're

470
00:26:53,840 --> 00:26:58,680
Speaker 2: essentially just a witness on the brief. As the arresting officer. Here,

471
00:26:58,800 --> 00:27:02,000
Speaker 2: it's a lot different you you do the individual does

472
00:27:02,040 --> 00:27:07,160
Speaker 2: all those things. And there's a lot of conversations here

473
00:27:07,240 --> 00:27:12,080
Speaker 2: in Victoria at the moment about bringing back some of

474
00:27:12,160 --> 00:27:15,879
Speaker 2: the retired retired cops and to you know, to do

475
00:27:16,080 --> 00:27:19,240
Speaker 2: some of this work that's been spoken about for a

476
00:27:19,320 --> 00:27:21,399
Speaker 2: long time. I just don't think. I don't think in

477
00:27:21,480 --> 00:27:25,680
Speaker 2: Australia it's it's it's a priority for at the political level.

478
00:27:27,000 --> 00:27:29,520
Speaker 2: I think it's always a conversation is always around police

479
00:27:29,600 --> 00:27:32,480
Speaker 2: numbers and around you know, get more police, get more police.

480
00:27:32,520 --> 00:27:38,600
Speaker 2: That's that's sexy for politicians. Yeah for twelve months. Yeah, yeah,

481
00:27:38,800 --> 00:27:41,240
Speaker 2: so you know we're in that cycle again, or we

482
00:27:41,280 --> 00:27:44,440
Speaker 2: will be in that cycle again here very soon. And

483
00:27:44,560 --> 00:27:47,879
Speaker 2: what never gets spoken about was, you know, well, we

484
00:27:47,960 --> 00:27:51,639
Speaker 2: could we could probably do with less police if we

485
00:27:51,800 --> 00:27:56,560
Speaker 2: had more more assistances, more administrative assistance. And they're not

486
00:27:56,640 --> 00:27:58,639
Speaker 2: people that actually have to be swarm police, so they

487
00:27:58,680 --> 00:28:01,399
Speaker 2: don't have to go off and do three months. And

488
00:28:02,040 --> 00:28:05,280
Speaker 2: as you know, there's a body of people out there

489
00:28:05,760 --> 00:28:09,480
Speaker 2: in ex cops who would be prepared to come in

490
00:28:09,600 --> 00:28:15,919
Speaker 2: and if it was just taking statements or putting briefs together,

491
00:28:16,119 --> 00:28:19,639
Speaker 2: that sort of stuff. You know, those are the roles

492
00:28:19,680 --> 00:28:23,000
Speaker 2: where you could actually free up your investigators to actually

493
00:28:23,080 --> 00:28:24,480
Speaker 2: do the stuff that you want them to do. You

494
00:28:24,560 --> 00:28:26,000
Speaker 2: can go out and catching crooks.

495
00:28:27,000 --> 00:28:30,520
Speaker 1: Andrew I think that's an important conversations, something that we've

496
00:28:30,600 --> 00:28:34,399
Speaker 1: touched on previously, and it's usually with the experienced cops

497
00:28:34,800 --> 00:28:39,000
Speaker 1: like yourself, that that is really a way forward. It

498
00:28:39,160 --> 00:28:43,560
Speaker 1: doesn't necessarily we have to increase the police numbers, but

499
00:28:43,880 --> 00:28:46,240
Speaker 1: take a bit of the pressure off the administrative stuff,

500
00:28:46,280 --> 00:28:49,160
Speaker 1: not just with the criminal investigations, but the administration in

501
00:28:49,320 --> 00:28:52,520
Speaker 1: terms of keeping diaries up to date and different things

502
00:28:52,600 --> 00:28:56,360
Speaker 1: that really even and people I think have a misconception

503
00:28:56,520 --> 00:28:59,000
Speaker 1: that and I'm sure you would have experienced this. You

504
00:28:59,080 --> 00:29:02,320
Speaker 1: could be leading a hole profile homicide investigation, and you

505
00:29:02,400 --> 00:29:05,000
Speaker 1: could also be spending a day on the phato copier

506
00:29:05,320 --> 00:29:08,440
Speaker 1: making sure you could FADO copy, getting the brief prepared,

507
00:29:09,160 --> 00:29:11,600
Speaker 1: and doing stuff like that. And I often thought, with

508
00:29:12,120 --> 00:29:15,680
Speaker 1: the experience of experienced officers that we could have people

509
00:29:15,760 --> 00:29:18,160
Speaker 1: assisting in those roles. But there seems to be a

510
00:29:18,200 --> 00:29:21,360
Speaker 1: reluctance to it. But I think it's definitely worth having

511
00:29:21,440 --> 00:29:22,560
Speaker 1: the conversation about.

512
00:29:22,840 --> 00:29:26,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, as an example of the major cases you're

513
00:29:26,440 --> 00:29:31,280
Speaker 2: talking and I often used to say, you know, somewhat flippantly,

514
00:29:31,800 --> 00:29:34,000
Speaker 2: when we've made a significant arrest.

515
00:29:33,880 --> 00:29:36,200
Speaker 1: You know, all the fund's over that, you know, the

516
00:29:37,240 --> 00:29:38,040
Speaker 1: hard work begins.

517
00:29:38,240 --> 00:29:40,560
Speaker 2: The hard work begins and putting the brief together. And

518
00:29:41,160 --> 00:29:43,480
Speaker 2: these days it's not just putting the brief together, it's

519
00:29:43,920 --> 00:29:47,080
Speaker 2: the disclosure. The disclosure and in a lot of cases

520
00:29:47,520 --> 00:29:52,000
Speaker 2: is greater than the brief. And you know, and through

521
00:29:52,080 --> 00:29:55,560
Speaker 2: disclosure we're talking about when you know, obviously, just to

522
00:29:55,640 --> 00:29:59,040
Speaker 2: explain to the listeners, when the solicitors get the brief

523
00:29:59,080 --> 00:30:06,240
Speaker 2: and they and put in their disclosure requests or demands

524
00:30:06,280 --> 00:30:09,320
Speaker 2: as they are, you know, or the other material that

525
00:30:10,240 --> 00:30:15,000
Speaker 2: they deem to be relevant or want to assist their

526
00:30:15,120 --> 00:30:19,280
Speaker 2: case has to be prepared and submitted, and in a

527
00:30:19,360 --> 00:30:21,640
Speaker 2: lot of cases there's a lot of redaction and a

528
00:30:21,720 --> 00:30:23,840
Speaker 2: lot of a lot of work got to go into that,

529
00:30:23,960 --> 00:30:26,640
Speaker 2: and generally it's one person doing that again, and that

530
00:30:27,000 --> 00:30:28,360
Speaker 2: can take longer than the brief.

531
00:30:28,160 --> 00:30:32,320
Speaker 1: To put together. Most definitely, I think it's quite often,

532
00:30:32,640 --> 00:30:37,040
Speaker 1: I believe, not just solely, but sometimes use strategically by

533
00:30:37,160 --> 00:30:41,360
Speaker 1: defense barristers and solicitors that you get your requisitions on

534
00:30:41,440 --> 00:30:45,040
Speaker 1: a Friday afternoon and they can be extremely broad, and

535
00:30:45,120 --> 00:30:48,560
Speaker 1: it would be literally going through hundreds and hundreds if

536
00:30:48,600 --> 00:30:51,920
Speaker 1: not more, pages of evidence and redacting certain things and

537
00:30:52,320 --> 00:30:56,800
Speaker 1: gathering gathering information. So look, it's a conversation that I

538
00:30:56,920 --> 00:30:59,360
Speaker 1: think's worth having, and it's good sitting down speaking to

539
00:30:59,440 --> 00:31:02,880
Speaker 1: an experience police officer looking at it, stepping away, not

540
00:31:03,000 --> 00:31:05,680
Speaker 1: involved in it now, but thinking where there could be improvements,

541
00:31:05,720 --> 00:31:09,560
Speaker 1: and just using the experience of retired police officers. That's

542
00:31:09,600 --> 00:31:12,960
Speaker 1: something that I've often said about New South Wales and

543
00:31:13,000 --> 00:31:17,160
Speaker 1: I can only speak with knowledge on New South Wales.

544
00:31:17,240 --> 00:31:21,000
Speaker 1: But when someone retired, they were gone from the force.

545
00:31:21,600 --> 00:31:26,800
Speaker 1: And I had friends colleagues that had retired for whatever reason,

546
00:31:27,080 --> 00:31:29,000
Speaker 1: but they would love to be working two or three

547
00:31:29,120 --> 00:31:31,040
Speaker 1: days a week and it could just be as simply

548
00:31:31,200 --> 00:31:34,920
Speaker 1: as sitting down taking witness statements just to and there's

549
00:31:34,960 --> 00:31:37,000
Speaker 1: a skill set that they've walked away with and we're

550
00:31:37,040 --> 00:31:37,800
Speaker 1: not utilizing that.

551
00:31:38,040 --> 00:31:40,600
Speaker 2: And don't get me started on witness statements, because you know,

552
00:31:40,720 --> 00:31:43,000
Speaker 2: that's probably one of the you know, if I had

553
00:31:43,040 --> 00:31:45,520
Speaker 2: to talk about one of the one of the arts

554
00:31:46,240 --> 00:31:51,120
Speaker 2: of certainly being being an detctive is good witness statements

555
00:31:51,200 --> 00:31:54,440
Speaker 2: and they're very rarely done. And you know, some of

556
00:31:54,520 --> 00:31:57,400
Speaker 2: the some of the more experienced people, if that's all

557
00:31:57,440 --> 00:32:00,000
Speaker 2: you're doing, you know, because as you know, your case.

558
00:31:59,920 --> 00:32:02,600
Speaker 1: Is revolve on your witness witness statements.

559
00:32:02,800 --> 00:32:08,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, so yeah, I'm not submitting my CLV just.

560
00:32:10,560 --> 00:32:14,960
Speaker 1: But just for I know what you say. And we

561
00:32:15,120 --> 00:32:18,480
Speaker 1: look at it. And I was working with strike forces

562
00:32:18,520 --> 00:32:20,840
Speaker 1: and I'm thinking, I know these people are sitting home

563
00:32:20,920 --> 00:32:23,080
Speaker 1: board because they're fanning me all the time since they've

564
00:32:23,160 --> 00:32:24,800
Speaker 1: left the police, and I would love them to come

565
00:32:24,880 --> 00:32:28,840
Speaker 1: in and get this detailed twenty page witness statement covering

566
00:32:28,880 --> 00:32:33,360
Speaker 1: off all the information that's required. But look, we're getting distracted.

567
00:32:33,640 --> 00:32:37,160
Speaker 1: I was going to have the conversation about about policing,

568
00:32:37,240 --> 00:32:39,920
Speaker 1: but let's let's delve into some of the cases that

569
00:32:40,880 --> 00:32:45,080
Speaker 1: you've been involved in. I'd be criticized by the audience

570
00:32:45,160 --> 00:32:49,240
Speaker 1: if I didn't take you to strike a Force or Piranha,

571
00:32:49,440 --> 00:32:54,160
Speaker 1: the Melbourne Underworld gangland killings that certainly played out big

572
00:32:54,280 --> 00:32:58,560
Speaker 1: time and in the Underbelly TV series. What was your

573
00:32:58,640 --> 00:33:01,080
Speaker 1: involvement in that investigation and tell us about what was

574
00:33:01,120 --> 00:33:02,280
Speaker 1: going on at that time.

575
00:33:02,640 --> 00:33:06,600
Speaker 2: Well, I was there at the start, so I'd not

576
00:33:06,880 --> 00:33:09,719
Speaker 2: long been a homicide and I was I was allocated

577
00:33:09,760 --> 00:33:13,480
Speaker 2: to to a crew. My senior sergeant was Pheli Bonymus

578
00:33:13,640 --> 00:33:17,880
Speaker 2: Phil Swindles at the time, and we actually had a

579
00:33:17,960 --> 00:33:21,959
Speaker 2: lot of the unsolved cases on our crew which had

580
00:33:22,000 --> 00:33:26,080
Speaker 2: happened so unsolved shooting murders out in the western suburbs

581
00:33:26,240 --> 00:33:32,160
Speaker 2: of Melbourne, and that it was actually Phil who put

582
00:33:32,200 --> 00:33:38,040
Speaker 2: together a report a recommending a task force be set

583
00:33:38,120 --> 00:33:40,920
Speaker 2: up to investigate these all of these unsold murders because

584
00:33:40,960 --> 00:33:44,040
Speaker 2: there was some commonality in some of the some of

585
00:33:44,080 --> 00:33:47,840
Speaker 2: the identities that were that were that were cropping up.

586
00:33:47,880 --> 00:33:50,360
Speaker 2: And of course you know, now people like Carl Williams

587
00:33:51,080 --> 00:33:54,600
Speaker 2: and as you know, as a as a trooper and

588
00:33:55,240 --> 00:33:58,840
Speaker 2: and then as a boss task forces, you don't you know,

589
00:33:59,240 --> 00:34:01,840
Speaker 2: you don't want us that one up unless you absolutely

590
00:34:01,920 --> 00:34:03,480
Speaker 2: have to. So there was there was, you know, there

591
00:34:03,600 --> 00:34:08,279
Speaker 2: was some resistance at at the early stages, so that

592
00:34:08,440 --> 00:34:10,759
Speaker 2: was knocked back that request initially. And then there was

593
00:34:10,800 --> 00:34:13,680
Speaker 2: a there was a feller by name of Nick Radev

594
00:34:13,760 --> 00:34:18,360
Speaker 2: who was notoriously known as Nick the Russian, which I

595
00:34:18,400 --> 00:34:21,279
Speaker 2: could never understand because he was actually Bulgarian. But Nick

596
00:34:21,360 --> 00:34:25,160
Speaker 2: the Russian was shot and killed in Melbourne in an

597
00:34:25,320 --> 00:34:29,319
Speaker 2: area of Melbourne called Cobert and that was pretty much

598
00:34:29,360 --> 00:34:31,520
Speaker 2: the straw that broke the camel's back. So when that

599
00:34:31,640 --> 00:34:35,600
Speaker 2: happened to happened in a very public place, and there

600
00:34:35,719 --> 00:34:39,360
Speaker 2: was you know, rightfully, there was a lot of media

601
00:34:39,560 --> 00:34:43,360
Speaker 2: outrage about that, and so that was the start of Prana.

602
00:34:43,480 --> 00:34:46,080
Speaker 2: So it was really you know, for any of your

603
00:34:47,440 --> 00:34:50,880
Speaker 2: listeners and yourself, if you've watched the wire, when you

604
00:34:50,920 --> 00:34:52,840
Speaker 2: know it's a bit like setting up setting up the

605
00:34:53,360 --> 00:34:56,960
Speaker 2: task force in the wy you know that you go

606
00:34:57,120 --> 00:34:59,440
Speaker 2: down to the basement with the old you know the

607
00:34:59,520 --> 00:35:03,160
Speaker 2: facts mass. You know, we didn't quite have the walking

608
00:35:03,200 --> 00:35:05,839
Speaker 2: wounded that they had in the in the in the wire.

609
00:35:05,960 --> 00:35:10,279
Speaker 2: But again I always I've always found the startup of

610
00:35:10,400 --> 00:35:15,360
Speaker 2: task forces or strike forces something, you know, it's funny

611
00:35:15,400 --> 00:35:19,080
Speaker 2: and it's it's it's it's got its own culture itself

612
00:35:19,160 --> 00:35:19,680
Speaker 2: in policing.

613
00:35:19,760 --> 00:35:23,520
Speaker 1: I think as well, well, you've opened up my mind

614
00:35:23,600 --> 00:35:25,799
Speaker 1: about some of the strike forces that were started up

615
00:35:25,880 --> 00:35:28,040
Speaker 1: and then to be announced by the senior police that

616
00:35:28,120 --> 00:35:30,280
Speaker 1: we've got the strike force. And then you look around

617
00:35:30,360 --> 00:35:36,000
Speaker 1: and we're still sitting at the same desk. No car, yeah,

618
00:35:36,560 --> 00:35:39,520
Speaker 1: no computers. Well what about staff? We should be able

619
00:35:39,520 --> 00:35:41,640
Speaker 1: to get you some stuff. And invariably you get someone

620
00:35:41,719 --> 00:35:44,560
Speaker 1: that's on long term sick for on holidays.

621
00:35:44,560 --> 00:35:46,319
Speaker 2: He's coming back in six months. Yeah, but you can

622
00:35:46,400 --> 00:35:46,719
Speaker 2: have him.

623
00:35:46,800 --> 00:35:50,920
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, Well it has twigged my memory on on

624
00:35:51,080 --> 00:35:54,719
Speaker 1: those times and that work was chaotic and I would

625
00:35:54,760 --> 00:35:57,360
Speaker 1: explain to people, and the more experienced I got, and

626
00:35:57,400 --> 00:35:59,920
Speaker 1: I was taught by people that were experienced, I couldn't

627
00:36:00,120 --> 00:36:02,360
Speaker 1: the stand when we're starting the strikeforce. When I was

628
00:36:02,360 --> 00:36:06,120
Speaker 1: a young fresh detective, all excited, Why we're worrying so

629
00:36:06,280 --> 00:36:08,400
Speaker 1: much about where are we going to access a whiteboard?

630
00:36:08,440 --> 00:36:10,799
Speaker 1: Why are we worried about computers? Shouldn't we be locking

631
00:36:10,880 --> 00:36:14,080
Speaker 1: up the bad guys? But I came to learn that

632
00:36:14,320 --> 00:36:17,200
Speaker 1: was imperative for the success of an investigation, to make

633
00:36:17,239 --> 00:36:19,840
Speaker 1: sure your fought for everything you could to get your

634
00:36:19,880 --> 00:36:20,359
Speaker 1: strike force.

635
00:36:21,920 --> 00:36:25,000
Speaker 2: White boys were a serious commodity, weren't they, and policing

636
00:36:25,880 --> 00:36:31,000
Speaker 2: in but I do say that Piranha was different in that.

637
00:36:31,560 --> 00:36:34,839
Speaker 2: So our entire crew went up to this task force,

638
00:36:34,880 --> 00:36:36,560
Speaker 2: and then they brought in some other people and some

639
00:36:36,680 --> 00:36:40,320
Speaker 2: great people as well from different areas, from drugs and

640
00:36:40,400 --> 00:36:43,960
Speaker 2: stolen stolen cars. And so that was the start of it,

641
00:36:44,280 --> 00:36:50,000
Speaker 2: and then it multiplied significantly after the murder of Jason

642
00:36:50,040 --> 00:36:54,000
Speaker 2: Moran and a feller by name of Pasquali Barbera added

643
00:36:55,320 --> 00:36:59,239
Speaker 2: add at the Cross Keys Hotel in Pascal Vale. And

644
00:36:59,400 --> 00:37:02,840
Speaker 2: this was the one that happened on an oz kick mourning.

645
00:37:03,760 --> 00:37:07,279
Speaker 2: All the kids are playing playing footy and the two

646
00:37:08,080 --> 00:37:11,719
Speaker 2: deceased in that manner actually loaded their kids into into

647
00:37:11,760 --> 00:37:15,160
Speaker 2: a van and we're just about to leave from memory

648
00:37:15,200 --> 00:37:18,600
Speaker 2: when they were, you know, they were brutally assassinated and

649
00:37:19,680 --> 00:37:22,520
Speaker 2: in public view with all these kids at this junior

650
00:37:22,560 --> 00:37:26,880
Speaker 2: footy morning, and that was the one that just caused

651
00:37:27,000 --> 00:37:29,640
Speaker 2: enormous outrage. And you know, as I've said before, I

652
00:37:29,719 --> 00:37:32,080
Speaker 2: think there are a number of things that are sacrosanct

653
00:37:32,160 --> 00:37:37,520
Speaker 2: in Australian society and kids sport on the weekends as

654
00:37:37,560 --> 00:37:40,520
Speaker 2: one of them, and for something like that to happen

655
00:37:40,560 --> 00:37:43,759
Speaker 2: in that environment, so then there was there was a

656
00:37:43,800 --> 00:37:48,520
Speaker 2: big injection of staff into the task force. As a

657
00:37:48,600 --> 00:37:52,360
Speaker 2: result of that, we probably tripled in number, went to

658
00:37:52,400 --> 00:37:55,759
Speaker 2: a bigger room, got a couple more cars, a couple

659
00:37:55,880 --> 00:37:59,960
Speaker 2: more whiteboards. But yeah, that's when it really took off.

660
00:38:00,840 --> 00:38:03,040
Speaker 1: What was the pressure like then, because I know when

661
00:38:03,360 --> 00:38:06,640
Speaker 1: you're involved in big strike forces like that, it's twenty

662
00:38:06,680 --> 00:38:10,640
Speaker 1: four to seven For each action, there's a reaction. You're

663
00:38:10,719 --> 00:38:14,239
Speaker 1: targeting people, you're keeping an eye that further crimes, and

664
00:38:14,320 --> 00:38:17,400
Speaker 1: it's a little bit different from some homicide investigations because

665
00:38:17,400 --> 00:38:19,600
Speaker 1: you've almost got to be proactive in the way that

666
00:38:20,000 --> 00:38:23,760
Speaker 1: you're trying to prevent further fever crimes happening.

667
00:38:24,160 --> 00:38:27,520
Speaker 2: It was like who's next, So you know, we all

668
00:38:27,680 --> 00:38:33,400
Speaker 2: were allocated an investigation, and then there's homicides that are happening.

669
00:38:33,760 --> 00:38:36,560
Speaker 2: You're looking at those and seeing there's any connections into it,

670
00:38:36,719 --> 00:38:40,080
Speaker 2: and then if there are connections, then there was a

671
00:38:40,120 --> 00:38:43,840
Speaker 2: bit of a negotiation with a homicide squad, you know,

672
00:38:43,960 --> 00:38:49,160
Speaker 2: to release those investigations to the Task Force. So it

673
00:38:49,440 --> 00:38:53,560
Speaker 2: was yeah, that was crazy days really that you kind

674
00:38:53,600 --> 00:38:55,960
Speaker 2: of just every day you were just kind of wondering who,

675
00:38:56,560 --> 00:38:59,759
Speaker 2: you know, who's next. That the crooks on us got

676
00:39:00,239 --> 00:39:04,400
Speaker 2: intoxicated on what they thought was this power that they

677
00:39:04,520 --> 00:39:08,480
Speaker 2: had to do this, And yeah, so that's why, you know,

678
00:39:08,800 --> 00:39:10,800
Speaker 2: I'm really proud of the work that we did. And

679
00:39:11,320 --> 00:39:14,319
Speaker 2: you know, I often get asked about there's obviously been

680
00:39:14,680 --> 00:39:18,120
Speaker 2: some issues over the years where you know, some of

681
00:39:18,160 --> 00:39:20,440
Speaker 2: the tactics that we use they have you know, certainly

682
00:39:20,520 --> 00:39:24,239
Speaker 2: been questioned. But holistically, from my point of view, it

683
00:39:24,400 --> 00:39:30,120
Speaker 2: stopped what was happening and undoubtedly saved lives and you know,

684
00:39:30,320 --> 00:39:33,520
Speaker 2: stop the underworld we're actually trying to run the city.

685
00:39:34,480 --> 00:39:38,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, that is the difficulty of situations like that, Like

686
00:39:38,719 --> 00:39:43,200
Speaker 1: I'm sure the task Force was set up to solve

687
00:39:43,280 --> 00:39:46,279
Speaker 1: the crimes but also prevent further crimes from happening, and

688
00:39:46,360 --> 00:39:49,680
Speaker 1: there's a lot of pressure and you've got to play

689
00:39:50,040 --> 00:39:53,880
Speaker 1: think outside the square in those ways. I think what

690
00:39:54,000 --> 00:39:56,000
Speaker 1: we're alluding to and we don't have to delve into

691
00:39:56,080 --> 00:39:58,880
Speaker 1: it was the solicit that became an informant that's been

692
00:39:58,960 --> 00:40:02,919
Speaker 1: playing out publicly over the past the past few years.

693
00:40:03,120 --> 00:40:05,520
Speaker 1: From it, I look at it, I look at it

694
00:40:05,600 --> 00:40:07,960
Speaker 1: from an investigator's point of view, and I can just

695
00:40:08,080 --> 00:40:10,359
Speaker 1: picture how Chao think that whole time would have been

696
00:40:10,960 --> 00:40:14,200
Speaker 1: down there, and the pressures that were on and the

697
00:40:14,280 --> 00:40:19,040
Speaker 1: people involved in Yeah, you got big personalities in the

698
00:40:19,160 --> 00:40:22,640
Speaker 1: investigations like this and you're getting pulled from pill the post.

699
00:40:22,920 --> 00:40:25,080
Speaker 1: Did you have a specific role, Yeah, well, I.

700
00:40:25,200 --> 00:40:28,080
Speaker 2: Was one of the one of the lead investigators. There

701
00:40:28,160 --> 00:40:30,640
Speaker 2: was a murder that happened after the task force had

702
00:40:31,080 --> 00:40:37,160
Speaker 2: started Fellabono of Lewis Kane who was shot and killed

703
00:40:37,200 --> 00:40:39,719
Speaker 2: out at Carlton and then his body was dumped in Brunswick.

704
00:40:40,880 --> 00:40:46,719
Speaker 2: And there was two too very well known criminal identity

705
00:40:46,840 --> 00:40:49,920
Speaker 2: who I can't name because of active suppression orders. Still

706
00:40:52,320 --> 00:40:55,640
Speaker 2: they were ultimately charged with that. So I was the

707
00:40:55,680 --> 00:41:00,399
Speaker 2: informant in that case, carried that one through know over

708
00:41:00,480 --> 00:41:03,360
Speaker 2: a period of time. But so I was, you know,

709
00:41:03,520 --> 00:41:07,960
Speaker 2: one of the one of the homicide investigators who, as

710
00:41:08,000 --> 00:41:09,839
Speaker 2: I say, we had a you know, we generally had

711
00:41:09,840 --> 00:41:11,759
Speaker 2: an active job, and we had a you know, we

712
00:41:11,880 --> 00:41:14,279
Speaker 2: had you know, other unsolved jobs as well that we

713
00:41:14,360 --> 00:41:15,000
Speaker 2: were looking.

714
00:41:14,840 --> 00:41:20,279
Speaker 1: At without giving away methodology on how they were caught.

715
00:41:20,400 --> 00:41:22,800
Speaker 1: A lot of them have gone through gone through the courts.

716
00:41:23,239 --> 00:41:25,440
Speaker 1: Where did you think that the police was starting to

717
00:41:25,480 --> 00:41:28,480
Speaker 1: get the upper hand on what was going on.

718
00:41:29,080 --> 00:41:33,400
Speaker 2: It was probably the most significant investigation, you know, in

719
00:41:33,520 --> 00:41:36,960
Speaker 2: terms of the volume of electronic surveillance that was carried

720
00:41:36,960 --> 00:41:39,759
Speaker 2: out of a period of time, and again without sort

721
00:41:39,800 --> 00:41:42,719
Speaker 2: of digging into the depths of that, as you know,

722
00:41:42,880 --> 00:41:46,000
Speaker 2: that's you know, that's pretty complicated stuff. It's not stuff

723
00:41:46,040 --> 00:41:49,040
Speaker 2: you get, you know, it's it's hard to get. It's

724
00:41:49,040 --> 00:41:52,960
Speaker 2: a very high bar and justification and then actually managing

725
00:41:53,080 --> 00:41:55,040
Speaker 2: that stuff and when you're talking about the volume of

726
00:41:55,320 --> 00:41:59,040
Speaker 2: you know, of electronic material that we were dealing with,

727
00:41:59,160 --> 00:42:01,279
Speaker 2: some of the people and the scene so never got

728
00:42:01,400 --> 00:42:05,320
Speaker 2: the accolades should be you know, hell up high because

729
00:42:05,600 --> 00:42:09,440
Speaker 2: as you know, managing that kind of you know, information

730
00:42:09,600 --> 00:42:11,600
Speaker 2: and going through it and listening to it twenty four

731
00:42:11,640 --> 00:42:15,160
Speaker 2: to seven is highly challenging. So that was one of

732
00:42:15,200 --> 00:42:18,000
Speaker 2: the big things. You know. Another one was the ability

733
00:42:18,120 --> 00:42:20,239
Speaker 2: of you know, some of our people and again just

734
00:42:20,360 --> 00:42:24,880
Speaker 2: coming back to talking to people, and even some of

735
00:42:25,000 --> 00:42:28,960
Speaker 2: these the people that we were talking to were were

736
00:42:29,239 --> 00:42:34,360
Speaker 2: you know, the hardest, hardest criminals in this country. You know,

737
00:42:34,400 --> 00:42:36,080
Speaker 2: at the end of the day, a lot of them

738
00:42:36,360 --> 00:42:38,040
Speaker 2: you can actually have a conversation with.

739
00:42:38,120 --> 00:42:40,799
Speaker 1: You again, that communication, Yeah, if.

740
00:42:40,719 --> 00:42:43,360
Speaker 2: You actually just give people respect and give them a

741
00:42:43,400 --> 00:42:47,200
Speaker 2: bit of time. And I'm not saying all of them,

742
00:42:47,239 --> 00:42:50,040
Speaker 2: as you know, there's some that you wouldn't waste your

743
00:42:50,120 --> 00:42:52,200
Speaker 2: time on, but you know, some of the some of

744
00:42:52,239 --> 00:42:54,960
Speaker 2: these people are actually you know, you can have a

745
00:42:55,040 --> 00:42:58,000
Speaker 2: conversation with him. There's kind of like a mutual respect.

746
00:42:59,040 --> 00:43:01,360
Speaker 2: So one of the really you know, important things that

747
00:43:01,400 --> 00:43:04,640
Speaker 2: happened during that time was that they actually recruited some

748
00:43:04,760 --> 00:43:07,040
Speaker 2: people and came on board and actually you know, gave

749
00:43:07,120 --> 00:43:12,720
Speaker 2: evidence against their associates. So that was a really important

750
00:43:12,760 --> 00:43:14,440
Speaker 2: part of it as well. And I think that came

751
00:43:14,520 --> 00:43:16,640
Speaker 2: from the quality of a lot of the investigators that

752
00:43:16,719 --> 00:43:19,960
Speaker 2: we had and the team who had those abilities to actually,

753
00:43:20,400 --> 00:43:23,120
Speaker 2: you know, to actually communicate with with you know, some

754
00:43:23,360 --> 00:43:25,600
Speaker 2: pretty serious crooks at the end of the day.

755
00:43:27,080 --> 00:43:30,720
Speaker 1: I don't think you can underestimate that ability for people

756
00:43:30,840 --> 00:43:34,840
Speaker 1: to be able to communicate and cultivate relationships with people

757
00:43:34,880 --> 00:43:37,560
Speaker 1: to get information and we're talking criminal informants here, but

758
00:43:38,200 --> 00:43:41,000
Speaker 1: there's some people that have from law enforcement have a

759
00:43:41,120 --> 00:43:43,799
Speaker 1: natural aptitude for it and it can make a world

760
00:43:43,840 --> 00:43:46,160
Speaker 1: of difference in investigations of that nature.

761
00:43:46,920 --> 00:43:49,360
Speaker 2: It is a bit of a dying art. But you know,

762
00:43:49,440 --> 00:43:52,480
Speaker 2: back in the back in the olden days, you know,

763
00:43:52,640 --> 00:43:54,400
Speaker 2: I talked about the olden days, and you know, in

764
00:43:55,239 --> 00:43:58,040
Speaker 2: the eighties you did actually get out on the town

765
00:43:58,080 --> 00:44:00,880
Speaker 2: a little bit more and talk to talk to people.

766
00:44:01,080 --> 00:44:04,320
Speaker 2: And that's gone now, you know. And for some reasons

767
00:44:04,800 --> 00:44:07,440
Speaker 2: that's a good thing, and you know, for other reasons

768
00:44:07,520 --> 00:44:09,239
Speaker 2: it's not a great thing. But you know, again, I

769
00:44:09,280 --> 00:44:11,360
Speaker 2: think that's just one of the challenges of modern policing

770
00:44:11,520 --> 00:44:15,759
Speaker 2: is how you kind of breage that gap where, you know,

771
00:44:16,200 --> 00:44:19,719
Speaker 2: in teaching our younger people how to actually communicate with

772
00:44:20,360 --> 00:44:22,480
Speaker 2: with with people on the other side of the tracks,

773
00:44:24,160 --> 00:44:26,760
Speaker 2: because a lot of them don't do very.

774
00:44:26,640 --> 00:44:30,080
Speaker 1: Well, No they don't. And we had that was identified

775
00:44:30,120 --> 00:44:32,319
Speaker 1: as a problem in the Royal Commission we had up

776
00:44:32,360 --> 00:44:36,040
Speaker 1: here in New South Wales police and informant relationships and

777
00:44:36,080 --> 00:44:41,719
Speaker 1: all that. But in my time involved post Royal Commission,

778
00:44:42,239 --> 00:44:45,000
Speaker 1: we're very accountable in the communications that we had with

779
00:44:45,640 --> 00:44:49,080
Speaker 1: criminal informants. We had to document it and it was painful,

780
00:44:49,239 --> 00:44:52,440
Speaker 1: like every time you virtually every time you're speaking to them,

781
00:44:52,560 --> 00:44:55,120
Speaker 1: documenting it and all that. It was painful at the time,

782
00:44:55,239 --> 00:44:57,000
Speaker 1: but what I see down the track when it came

783
00:44:57,080 --> 00:45:00,439
Speaker 1: through the courts, it was great. The barristers are things, Okay,

784
00:45:00,520 --> 00:45:02,960
Speaker 1: what's gone here? Is something shocky gone on here? And

785
00:45:03,080 --> 00:45:05,120
Speaker 1: you produce all the records. This is every time I've

786
00:45:05,160 --> 00:45:08,040
Speaker 1: spoken to the informant, this is what the informant told me.

787
00:45:08,160 --> 00:45:11,840
Speaker 1: And moving on from there with the what we know

788
00:45:12,040 --> 00:45:14,440
Speaker 1: is the Melbourne Gangland War, how long did that go

789
00:45:14,600 --> 00:45:14,800
Speaker 1: on for?

790
00:45:17,840 --> 00:45:23,920
Speaker 2: Well, it had started well before Piranha started, so you

791
00:45:24,000 --> 00:45:26,320
Speaker 2: know it would have started in the early two thousands

792
00:45:26,400 --> 00:45:30,520
Speaker 2: and you know, probably for at least five five years

793
00:45:30,560 --> 00:45:32,840
Speaker 2: after that, I would think, you know, it would be

794
00:45:32,880 --> 00:45:35,200
Speaker 2: at least five years and then you know, obviously you

795
00:45:35,320 --> 00:45:39,680
Speaker 2: talk about how things now long things take to work

796
00:45:39,719 --> 00:45:42,080
Speaker 2: through the courts. But yeah, I would say certainly there

797
00:45:42,200 --> 00:45:45,960
Speaker 2: was five years of it with Piranha.

798
00:45:46,120 --> 00:45:48,520
Speaker 1: The task force that was set up. How many police

799
00:45:48,560 --> 00:45:51,040
Speaker 1: were attached to that at its highest.

800
00:45:50,920 --> 00:45:53,800
Speaker 2: Well, I would say we started off with from memory,

801
00:45:53,840 --> 00:45:57,120
Speaker 2: we started off with about ten or twelve in the

802
00:45:57,360 --> 00:45:58,960
Speaker 2: in the very early days, and then it went up

803
00:45:59,000 --> 00:46:01,560
Speaker 2: to about sixty years I think. So it was you know,

804
00:46:01,719 --> 00:46:05,320
Speaker 2: and that's a sizeable task forces, you know, in Australian terms,

805
00:46:07,960 --> 00:46:10,000
Speaker 2: it would have been up around those numbers.

806
00:46:10,160 --> 00:46:14,239
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's that's big numbers when it ended. Can you

807
00:46:14,320 --> 00:46:17,680
Speaker 1: put a point on when the war ended, as we

808
00:46:17,840 --> 00:46:20,600
Speaker 1: describe as a war and how many people were killed

809
00:46:20,719 --> 00:46:22,239
Speaker 1: or got the tributed in that course?

810
00:46:22,400 --> 00:46:22,960
Speaker 2: I couldn't tell you.

811
00:46:24,080 --> 00:46:24,480
Speaker 1: I can't.

812
00:46:24,840 --> 00:46:28,839
Speaker 2: I can't recall from from memory. But but pretty much

813
00:46:28,920 --> 00:46:32,279
Speaker 2: everyone either ended up dead or locked up one or

814
00:46:32,280 --> 00:46:34,400
Speaker 2: the other. And you know, certainly in the case of

815
00:46:34,480 --> 00:46:36,200
Speaker 2: Carl Williams, he was locked up and then he ended

816
00:46:36,280 --> 00:46:40,719
Speaker 2: up dead. But that's pretty much, you know. It was

817
00:46:40,800 --> 00:46:43,680
Speaker 2: actually the fact that we locked all the players up

818
00:46:43,960 --> 00:46:45,640
Speaker 2: at the end of the day or they were either

819
00:46:45,800 --> 00:46:47,480
Speaker 2: they'd either already been killed.

820
00:46:47,360 --> 00:46:50,319
Speaker 1: Or they've been killed or been locked up, and they

821
00:46:50,400 --> 00:46:51,320
Speaker 1: probably put an end to it.

822
00:46:51,640 --> 00:46:51,840
Speaker 2: It was.

823
00:46:52,080 --> 00:46:55,480
Speaker 1: It was a fascinating job and it certainly captured the

824
00:46:55,600 --> 00:46:59,360
Speaker 1: attention of the nation. With the Underbelly, the first Underbelly

825
00:46:59,400 --> 00:47:02,400
Speaker 1: series that the played out in it was that up

826
00:47:02,440 --> 00:47:04,800
Speaker 1: and running at the time of the investigations or that

827
00:47:04,920 --> 00:47:06,360
Speaker 1: came after the investigations.

828
00:47:06,680 --> 00:47:10,400
Speaker 2: Well it actually it actually came after the investigations, but

829
00:47:10,520 --> 00:47:14,400
Speaker 2: they started filming that and I was I was again

830
00:47:14,480 --> 00:47:18,520
Speaker 2: privileged to be part of that and actually was was

831
00:47:18,640 --> 00:47:24,399
Speaker 2: given permission within within Victoria Police to actually act as

832
00:47:24,440 --> 00:47:28,480
Speaker 2: the technical advisor to to that show, which was which

833
00:47:28,640 --> 00:47:31,680
Speaker 2: was really interesting. It wouldn't happen, it wouldn't happen now,

834
00:47:31,760 --> 00:47:36,279
Speaker 2: but different times. But that's where I got to know

835
00:47:36,320 --> 00:47:39,040
Speaker 2: a lot of people in that, you know, and in

836
00:47:39,200 --> 00:47:44,960
Speaker 2: the well in the film and television industry, I suppose

837
00:47:45,080 --> 00:47:47,800
Speaker 2: because a lot of the you know, the top people

838
00:47:48,200 --> 00:47:51,960
Speaker 2: in Australian film and television worked behind that, as you know,

839
00:47:52,040 --> 00:47:56,400
Speaker 2: because you were involved in it. And so that was

840
00:47:56,520 --> 00:48:01,080
Speaker 2: really really interesting experience to to be there from the

841
00:48:01,239 --> 00:48:05,440
Speaker 2: start with with Underbelly and to work with the writers

842
00:48:06,800 --> 00:48:12,000
Speaker 2: and the producers from the start of that. And you know,

843
00:48:12,080 --> 00:48:15,400
Speaker 2: I remember one of the one of the greatest takeaways

844
00:48:15,440 --> 00:48:18,040
Speaker 2: I had from that is a thing that I, you know,

845
00:48:18,160 --> 00:48:21,600
Speaker 2: I maintained today is that the truth is truth is

846
00:48:21,719 --> 00:48:25,680
Speaker 2: stranger than fiction. I remember sitting in writers' rooms with

847
00:48:25,960 --> 00:48:29,239
Speaker 2: you know, some of the best writers in Australian television

848
00:48:29,960 --> 00:48:32,000
Speaker 2: and seeing their jewels at the table when we were

849
00:48:32,040 --> 00:48:34,399
Speaker 2: telling them stories about things that had happened, and these

850
00:48:34,440 --> 00:48:38,040
Speaker 2: are ultimately things that made it into into the television show.

851
00:48:38,320 --> 00:48:40,160
Speaker 2: And they were, you know, saying, oh, we couldn't make

852
00:48:40,160 --> 00:48:42,080
Speaker 2: this up. You know that we couldn't. We couldn't, we

853
00:48:42,160 --> 00:48:44,799
Speaker 2: couldn't write this. And that's you know, that's one thing

854
00:48:44,840 --> 00:48:46,719
Speaker 2: that's actually stuck with me. There's a lot of things

855
00:48:46,760 --> 00:48:49,000
Speaker 2: that we see in the war exposed that you couldn't

856
00:48:49,400 --> 00:48:53,520
Speaker 2: make up. So that was really, you know, insightful for

857
00:48:53,640 --> 00:48:55,680
Speaker 2: me thinking that, yeah, a lot of a lot of

858
00:48:55,719 --> 00:48:58,920
Speaker 2: what we do see is actually stranger than fiction.

859
00:48:59,520 --> 00:49:04,320
Speaker 1: It seems. And I think you've got permission to consult

860
00:49:04,440 --> 00:49:08,160
Speaker 1: with the Underbelly. When they did the series on Underbelly

861
00:49:08,239 --> 00:49:11,960
Speaker 1: Badness on the Terry Falcon murder, senior police approached me

862
00:49:12,280 --> 00:49:16,440
Speaker 1: and said, look, Underbelly writers are doing this. We're happy

863
00:49:16,480 --> 00:49:19,360
Speaker 1: for them to sit down speak with you and all that.

864
00:49:19,520 --> 00:49:24,440
Speaker 1: So I had permission also to provide information to them. Sadly,

865
00:49:25,000 --> 00:49:27,080
Speaker 1: about three weeks before it was due to go on,

866
00:49:27,239 --> 00:49:30,560
Speaker 1: they've canceled that permission and I've said, well, you know,

867
00:49:30,920 --> 00:49:34,880
Speaker 1: I've already given all the details. They've followed me around

868
00:49:34,920 --> 00:49:36,960
Speaker 1: it at your direction, and now you're telling me not

869
00:49:37,080 --> 00:49:40,840
Speaker 1: to speak to them, But my experience with it, I

870
00:49:40,960 --> 00:49:43,800
Speaker 1: know in speaking to you, and I got to the

871
00:49:43,840 --> 00:49:46,800
Speaker 1: point where I said, look to the underbelly writers, you

872
00:49:46,920 --> 00:49:50,719
Speaker 1: can't be around while we're working. Step away from it,

873
00:49:50,840 --> 00:49:55,799
Speaker 1: and I'll give you my time after work. And they

874
00:49:55,840 --> 00:49:59,560
Speaker 1: would often say, well, yeah, we're taking up so much

875
00:49:59,640 --> 00:50:01,759
Speaker 1: of your time. I said, that's fine. And the thing

876
00:50:01,840 --> 00:50:06,880
Speaker 1: that helped me get through that was working with creative people.

877
00:50:07,440 --> 00:50:11,080
Speaker 1: I found it refreshing because police is so dark, heavy,

878
00:50:11,520 --> 00:50:15,160
Speaker 1: and you're stuck in this world, and then you sat

879
00:50:15,239 --> 00:50:17,440
Speaker 1: down with the writers and spending time in the writer's

880
00:50:17,560 --> 00:50:20,480
Speaker 1: room as you described, I found it quite refreshing, and

881
00:50:20,560 --> 00:50:23,640
Speaker 1: that balanced out the day to day police work I was.

882
00:50:24,600 --> 00:50:27,520
Speaker 2: I still am in awe of some of those people,

883
00:50:27,600 --> 00:50:29,680
Speaker 2: some of those writers, you know, I have the sort

884
00:50:29,719 --> 00:50:32,040
Speaker 2: of privilege of working with some of them still today.

885
00:50:32,680 --> 00:50:34,200
Speaker 2: And one i'll give a shout out to I know

886
00:50:34,560 --> 00:50:38,319
Speaker 2: he's mate of yours, Greg Hadrick. He's a good friend

887
00:50:38,360 --> 00:50:42,440
Speaker 2: of us. And Greg was one of the main guys

888
00:50:42,560 --> 00:50:49,120
Speaker 2: and his ability to absorb information and then to convert

889
00:50:49,239 --> 00:50:53,040
Speaker 2: that into a script or a story overnight, you know,

890
00:50:53,719 --> 00:50:58,120
Speaker 2: it was it still leaves me, leaves me and if

891
00:50:58,280 --> 00:51:00,640
Speaker 2: his skill and you know, Greg was one of one

892
00:51:00,680 --> 00:51:02,359
Speaker 2: of a number of writers and they were all good,

893
00:51:02,400 --> 00:51:03,640
Speaker 2: and a lot of them had come out of that

894
00:51:03,960 --> 00:51:07,239
Speaker 2: Neighbors and Harme and Away kind of environment where you know,

895
00:51:07,480 --> 00:51:11,680
Speaker 2: there's a constant churn, and I think that was kind

896
00:51:11,680 --> 00:51:14,440
Speaker 2: of where a lot of those riders cut their teeth

897
00:51:14,440 --> 00:51:16,839
Speaker 2: as well, you know, talking about where we cut our teeth,

898
00:51:16,920 --> 00:51:18,640
Speaker 2: you know, just on that constant churn.

899
00:51:19,000 --> 00:51:22,160
Speaker 1: The constant pressure. I was surprised that the depth and

900
00:51:22,440 --> 00:51:25,600
Speaker 1: the team that Greg had and I would fight often

901
00:51:25,680 --> 00:51:28,160
Speaker 1: joke with them that they delve so deeply. I said,

902
00:51:28,200 --> 00:51:31,000
Speaker 1: I need you guys on the strikeforce to work as

903
00:51:31,040 --> 00:51:35,399
Speaker 1: my analysts, like they would dig up things and come

904
00:51:35,480 --> 00:51:38,160
Speaker 1: back with things. But look, it's an interesting experience and

905
00:51:38,200 --> 00:51:40,640
Speaker 1: it's good sitting down speaking to a fellow cop who

906
00:51:40,719 --> 00:51:45,000
Speaker 1: has that experience, because it's something that's rather unique in

907
00:51:45,560 --> 00:51:46,200
Speaker 1: the world of police.

908
00:51:46,280 --> 00:51:48,040
Speaker 2: Well, if I could just say as well, I mean,

909
00:51:48,320 --> 00:51:50,239
Speaker 2: I know you've had experience of this, but in the

910
00:51:50,400 --> 00:51:52,760
Speaker 2: in the in the production phase, so when they're actually

911
00:51:52,840 --> 00:51:56,640
Speaker 2: filming things, you know, one thing that actually just just

912
00:51:57,160 --> 00:51:58,680
Speaker 2: I used to think I wish I could have these

913
00:51:58,719 --> 00:52:04,399
Speaker 2: people working for me doing doing warrant planning because they're

914
00:52:04,440 --> 00:52:09,280
Speaker 2: planning logistics and execution of their plans. You know, everything

915
00:52:09,360 --> 00:52:11,399
Speaker 2: is planned down because you know, time is money, as

916
00:52:11,440 --> 00:52:15,000
Speaker 2: you know, in that industry, and the planning that goes

917
00:52:15,040 --> 00:52:19,480
Speaker 2: into it, the communications and logistics is just it's just

918
00:52:19,600 --> 00:52:23,280
Speaker 2: first rate. So yeah, big shout out to that industry.

919
00:52:23,880 --> 00:52:27,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, interesting experience. We might we might take a break

920
00:52:27,760 --> 00:52:30,759
Speaker 1: here here, Andrew, and when we get back, I want

921
00:52:30,800 --> 00:52:33,279
Speaker 1: to talk about a couple of other cases. We'll talk

922
00:52:33,320 --> 00:52:36,520
Speaker 1: about the brutal rape and murder. You're a dissy Dixon

923
00:52:37,160 --> 00:52:40,239
Speaker 1: stalked on the streets of Melbourne. I'll get your thoughts on,

924
00:52:40,680 --> 00:52:43,759
Speaker 1: get your thoughts on policing, and I'm sure we're going

925
00:52:43,800 --> 00:52:45,600
Speaker 1: to have a lot more, a lot more to talk

926
00:52:45,600 --> 00:52:47,960
Speaker 1: about when we get back. OK. Thanks, cheers,