WEBVTT - Jon Faine on why the ABC's boss just quit

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<v Speaker 1>From Schwartz Media on Daniel James, This is seven Am.

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<v Speaker 1>David Anderson has resigned as Managing director of the ABC.

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<v Speaker 1>Anderson is an ABC lifer. He first joined the ABC

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<v Speaker 1>in nineteen eighty nine and worked his way to the top,

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<v Speaker 1>spending almost six years as the head of the national broadcaster.

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<v Speaker 1>His decision comes as a shock to many. It was

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<v Speaker 1>only last year he accepted a second term offered to

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<v Speaker 1>him by outgoing chairperson Ida Batros in one of her

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<v Speaker 1>last acts in that role. But with Buttro's gone and

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<v Speaker 1>a new chair in Kim Williams, the future of the

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<v Speaker 1>ABC now looks markedly different. Today, ABC veteran John Fame

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<v Speaker 1>tells us what he thinks of the leadership of the

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<v Speaker 1>ABC and who might replace David Anderson. It's Friday, August

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<v Speaker 1>twenty three.

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<v Speaker 2>John.

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<v Speaker 1>Are you surprised to hear that David Anderson has quit

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<v Speaker 1>given he's only just started his second term in the role.

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<v Speaker 2>I'm surprised because when Ita, on her way out the door,

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<v Speaker 2>gave him a new contract, it was implicit in that

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<v Speaker 2>that he wanted to see out a fair chunk of it.

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<v Speaker 2>Now you know, Kim Williams is a force to be

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<v Speaker 2>reckoned with But they've said very nice things about each

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<v Speaker 2>other from day one, and I'm aware there's I mean,

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<v Speaker 2>people talk about there's a bit of tension on the

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<v Speaker 2>top floor. Ultimo, that's a good thing. There should be

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<v Speaker 2>people nervous on the top floorid ultimate with Kim Williams

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<v Speaker 2>out there on the warpath. Apart from which I think

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<v Speaker 2>this is going to sound really horrible, but I'm going

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<v Speaker 2>to say it anyway. I don't think they've done the

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<v Speaker 2>sort of job where they should feel that they aren't

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<v Speaker 2>under pressure. Actually think the organization's gone backwards on a

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<v Speaker 2>whole lot of measures, but that automate the top manager's

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<v Speaker 2>very anxious and nervous. I mean, let me put it

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<v Speaker 2>this way. Let's take first of all, radio. If there

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<v Speaker 2>was one program on one radio station on one network

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<v Speaker 2>that was struggling, you'd say, that's got a problem. The

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<v Speaker 2>presenter's not cutting through, or the producers aren't choosing the

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<v Speaker 2>right subjects or the right talent, and it's not working.

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<v Speaker 2>If you've got a whole radio station that's struggling, you say, well,

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<v Speaker 2>there's a bit of a problem in that particular capital

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<v Speaker 2>city or regional or network, whatever it might be. But

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<v Speaker 2>that's the next thing. The network. You've got whole stations,

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<v Speaker 2>whole networks that are struggling, local radio radio, national news radio,

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<v Speaker 2>Triple J. They're all struggling. So what if they got

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<v Speaker 2>in common. It's not an individual presenter or a team

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<v Speaker 2>or a station, it's the thing they've got in common,

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<v Speaker 2>which is the management and the culture at the management level.

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<v Speaker 2>Under Itebtros became risk averse and I ended up like everyone.

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<v Speaker 2>I was excited when she was appointed. She said lots

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<v Speaker 2>of really good things, and then the dampeners came down

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<v Speaker 2>and she measured success by reducing the number of politicians

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<v Speaker 2>and powerful people complaining about the ABC. Well, that's just wrong.

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<v Speaker 2>If we're doing our job, then people will be complaining,

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<v Speaker 2>and that's a good thing. And so it started to

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<v Speaker 2>be risk averse, anodyne, don't make waves, don't upset people,

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<v Speaker 2>and it meant it wasn't as interesting to listen to

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<v Speaker 2>or to watch on television as well.

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<v Speaker 1>Do you think that Ida Buttrose should have held off

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<v Speaker 1>on David Anderson's reappointment until a new chair was in place.

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<v Speaker 2>I'll go harder than that. Ida Buttros should have left

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<v Speaker 2>a year before she did, and she shouldn't, and no

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<v Speaker 2>chair of a board should appoint someone to a key

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<v Speaker 2>position on their way out the door. It's just plain wrong.

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<v Speaker 2>You're tying the hands of the incoming people, which is

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<v Speaker 2>not right. It's just wrong. It's wrong. Whether it's a

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<v Speaker 2>public broadcaster or any other institution, public or private, it's

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<v Speaker 2>the same in corporate life. You don't do it.

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<v Speaker 1>David Anderson was at the ABC for decades. He worked

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<v Speaker 1>in a lot of different departments. He became the head

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<v Speaker 1>of Television than the director of Entertainment and specialist. I

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<v Speaker 1>was seeing all of the ABC's radio networks, so we

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<v Speaker 1>knew the organization before he got to the top job.

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<v Speaker 1>But what was he like as managing director in your view?

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<v Speaker 1>I think he's been terrific as a managing director. I've

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<v Speaker 1>got on my occasions when I dealt with him, he

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<v Speaker 1>was always very congenial, very supportive.

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<v Speaker 2>He loves the ABC. He lives and breathes the ABC.

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<v Speaker 2>He understands the nuance and the detail and the culture.

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<v Speaker 2>He is popular with most of the people he needs

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<v Speaker 2>to work with. When he came up to Senate estimates,

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<v Speaker 2>when he came up to public brillings, he always stood

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<v Speaker 2>up for the organization. He was a champion and you know,

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<v Speaker 2>he himself is the first to say he's not a

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<v Speaker 2>rock star, but he was always prepared to go in

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<v Speaker 2>and have a go bat hard for the ABC, and

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<v Speaker 2>for that, I think he deserves everybody's thanks. He did

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<v Speaker 2>have a board which for a while. In fact, I

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<v Speaker 2>think you know, going back in history, there were people

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<v Speaker 2>on the ABC board if you go far enough back,

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<v Speaker 2>there were people who were absolutely hostile to the ABC

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<v Speaker 2>and were specifically appointed to try and bash it up

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<v Speaker 2>from the inside. And I'm talking about Janet al Briton

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<v Speaker 2>and Michael Kraeger and the whole Jonathan Shire experiment which

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<v Speaker 2>was just nothing short of disastrous. And then you ended

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<v Speaker 2>up with Michelle Guthrie who I crossed swords with, and

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<v Speaker 2>Justin Milne and they both left, and you know, they

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<v Speaker 2>were planning to sack me and other key people because

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<v Speaker 2>we were upsetting people on the conservative side of politics

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<v Speaker 2>by holding power to account, which is what our job is.

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<v Speaker 2>But their response was, I know, it makes it harder

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<v Speaker 2>for us to go to camber and get funding, so

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<v Speaker 2>you have to go. I mean, that's just outrageous stuff.

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<v Speaker 1>How critical was David in studying the ship after all

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<v Speaker 1>that tumult that you just mentioned.

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<v Speaker 2>And that's I think the key thing, and he restored

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<v Speaker 2>the faith of a lot of staff in the capacity

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<v Speaker 2>of management to actually manage the ABC. I mean, it's

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<v Speaker 2>a very volatile environment. It's a very volatile it's an

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<v Speaker 2>enormous organization and you know, there's a lot of people

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<v Speaker 2>there who don't like being told what to do, which

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<v Speaker 2>from a manager's point of view is pretty tricky.

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<v Speaker 1>In recent years, the ABC has overtly or inadvertently found

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<v Speaker 1>itself in the midst of the cultural wars that would

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<v Speaker 1>add to the complexity of someone like David Anderson's job.

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<v Speaker 1>What were some of the challenges that he faced in

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<v Speaker 1>relation to all of that.

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<v Speaker 2>So there's a lot of this confected outrage that comes

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<v Speaker 2>from the usual suspects.

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<v Speaker 1>The ABC is running this kind of propaganda via its

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<v Speaker 1>own uninformed reporters and you are paying for it.

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<v Speaker 2>Is the far left ABC institutionally racist? What do you

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<v Speaker 2>call a quiet Australian in the ABC? Lonely, very lonely.

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<v Speaker 2>I noticed recently Kim Williams, the ABC should take notice

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<v Speaker 2>of what those confected outrage manufacturers what they're doing. But

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<v Speaker 2>by and large, you know, notice it, but don't respond

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<v Speaker 2>and react to it, and don't ever let them set

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<v Speaker 2>your agenda. So I don't think for a minute that,

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<v Speaker 2>for instance, the Murdoch muckrakers and the shock jocks and

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<v Speaker 2>people like that should be setting the agenda for Australian

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<v Speaker 2>news gathering and news conversations and the zeitgeist. But in

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<v Speaker 2>fact the ABC amplifies them by reacting and responding and

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<v Speaker 2>taking on board what they say. And yeah, David's found

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<v Speaker 2>himself caught up in some of those outrages. But I

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<v Speaker 2>wish the ABC would just chuckle and move on.

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<v Speaker 1>The ABC has some big problems. It's reaching fewer Australians

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<v Speaker 1>each week than at any time in the past decade,

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<v Speaker 1>and this comes after the Labor Gun restored funding to

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<v Speaker 1>the broadcaster. So what do you think an incoming managing

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<v Speaker 1>director needs to know about and do about all of that?

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<v Speaker 2>So the first thing any incoming MD should be told

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<v Speaker 2>is restructures are not the answer. The structures not the problem.

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<v Speaker 2>And don't start thinking that by shuffling the deck chairs

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<v Speaker 2>you're in any way saving the Titanic. It's rubbish. You know,

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<v Speaker 2>we're not having a rebranding. We're not having a reorganization.

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<v Speaker 2>Just forget that. It's a waste of energy, a waste

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<v Speaker 2>of resources, and the collective grown from thousands of ABC

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<v Speaker 2>staff if you announced another restructure would be audible around

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<v Speaker 2>the country. Don't even think about it. Get rid of

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<v Speaker 2>some of the frippery and some of the lifestyle and

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<v Speaker 2>some of the nonsense around the edges, and put our

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<v Speaker 2>resources into the things the public really values from us,

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<v Speaker 2>and the public do value from the ABC, and make

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<v Speaker 2>sure that we do it better. You know, Radio National

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<v Speaker 2>is fantastic. I just want it to be better. It

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<v Speaker 2>rates insignificantly. Well with all that content, how do we

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<v Speaker 2>get better value out of the enormous amounts of money

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<v Speaker 2>that we're spending on making it, which most Australians aren't

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<v Speaker 2>even aware of, the oblivious to it. Well, that's not

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<v Speaker 2>good enough anymore.

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<v Speaker 1>Coming up after the break, how the ABC under its

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<v Speaker 1>new chair, Kim Williams, is going to change. You've seen

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<v Speaker 1>a few chairs of the ABC in your time, John Ye.

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<v Speaker 1>Kim Williams seems to be particularly outspoken about editorial direction

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<v Speaker 1>and criticism focus of things like hard news. Is that

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<v Speaker 1>an unusual thing to hear from a chair a criticism

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<v Speaker 1>of the ABC's own decision making in such a public way.

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<v Speaker 2>I think it's fabulous and I welcome it, and I

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<v Speaker 2>agree with it, and I think it's great that he's

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<v Speaker 2>prepared to call a spade a spade. Now there's an

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<v Speaker 2>interesting dilemma here, because if there was a chair of

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<v Speaker 2>the board who said things I didn't agree with, I'd

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<v Speaker 2>be outraged. I'd say they shouldn't interfere. But because he's

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<v Speaker 2>saying things that I agree with, I'm going hooray and

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<v Speaker 2>cheering him on. No, I don't think the chair of

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<v Speaker 2>the board shouldn't be getting into the weeds of making programs.

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<v Speaker 2>But if the chair of the board has concerns, I

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<v Speaker 2>actually think it's fabulous that he's expressing them, and he's

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<v Speaker 2>putting people under pressure, and so he should. The ABC

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<v Speaker 2>rolled out a new digital front page on the ABC

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<v Speaker 2>dot net dot AU website, and immediately it's full of

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<v Speaker 2>all these sort of lifestyle stories, which, quite frankly, I

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<v Speaker 2>think are a total waste of the ABC's time, money

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<v Speaker 2>and resources and energy In emotion, I don't know why

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<v Speaker 2>they think anybody cares about some of that stuff, because

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<v Speaker 2>it's just not what the ABC should be doing, and

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<v Speaker 2>the energy and the resources should instead be put into

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<v Speaker 2>more investigatory pieces, more holding power to account. And I

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<v Speaker 2>don't care about which coffee is the most ordered coffee.

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<v Speaker 2>And you know, timbuctoo or whatever, give me a break.

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<v Speaker 2>I mean, you know the project can do that if

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<v Speaker 2>the ABC wants to be taken seriously, and what's an audience?

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<v Speaker 2>How about making compelling content instead of trying to go

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<v Speaker 2>down market?

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<v Speaker 1>Are there any obvious contenders to replace David Anderson Kim Williams?

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<v Speaker 1>You really think he's up for the role to do both?

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<v Speaker 2>I think it would be poorly seen and poorly regarded

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<v Speaker 2>as see if oh well, it's a sort of messiah syndrome.

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<v Speaker 2>So in that sense, I don't think you do both.

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<v Speaker 2>It's going to be a really interesting one. Does Kim

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<v Speaker 2>think he can bring about more change as managing director?

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<v Speaker 2>In which case, does he take the gamble of resigning

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<v Speaker 2>from the chairman of the board in order to put

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<v Speaker 2>forward his application, or does he go no, I can

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<v Speaker 2>shape the organization here from the chair. But he has

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<v Speaker 2>long aspired to run the ABC. If he doesn't apply

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<v Speaker 2>for it, he'll look for someone in his image. He'll

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<v Speaker 2>look for someone who is as skeptical of fads and

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<v Speaker 2>fashions of technology that the ABC occasionally seems to get

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<v Speaker 2>completely tied up into knots about Remember Mark Scott spent

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<v Speaker 2>a fortune on MySpace? Well you know, hello ah. But

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<v Speaker 2>that sense of urgency and relentless pursuit of better standards,

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<v Speaker 2>I mean, how can anyone possibly complain or disagree about that?

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<v Speaker 1>John Phone, Thank you so much for your time.

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<v Speaker 2>It's been fun.

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<v Speaker 1>Anything we have don't asked you about the.

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<v Speaker 2>Eating Who should be the next host of Media Watch?

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<v Speaker 1>Who?

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<v Speaker 2>Maybe David Anderson could be free to do it? Now,

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<v Speaker 2>that's the story. David Anderson's resign so he can host

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<v Speaker 2>media Watch. There why there's a scoop for you.

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<v Speaker 1>It all makes sense. Also in the news today, Senator

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<v Speaker 1>Linda Reynolds lawyers have launched another lawsuit against Britney Higgins

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<v Speaker 1>with the aim of gaining access to a two point

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<v Speaker 1>four million federal government settlement. When Miss Higgins received the funds,

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<v Speaker 1>she placed them in a trust. The new lawsuit seeks

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<v Speaker 1>to have funds released from that trust to Miss Higgins

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<v Speaker 1>so that if Senator Reynolds wins her defamation case, it

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<v Speaker 1>will make it easier for her to gain access to them,

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<v Speaker 1>and new parents could soon earn superannuation on top of

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<v Speaker 1>government funded pay per rental leave under new laws introduced

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<v Speaker 1>to Federal Parliament. The laws would allow for parents to

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<v Speaker 1>get twelve percent superannuation, helping one hundred and eighty thousand

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<v Speaker 1>families who access government funded leave following the birth of

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<v Speaker 1>a child. Seven Am is a daily show from SCHWARTZMDIA

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<v Speaker 1>and The Saturday Paper. It is produced by Shane Anderson,

0:13:05.840 --> 0:13:10.080
<v Speaker 1>Sultan Facho, and Zaia Tangral. Our senior producer is Chris

0:13:10.120 --> 0:13:14.800
<v Speaker 1>dan Gate. Our technical producer is Adigas Basto. Sarah McVeigh

0:13:14.920 --> 0:13:17.640
<v Speaker 1>is the head of audio. Eric Jensen is our editor

0:13:17.679 --> 0:13:21.840
<v Speaker 1>in chief. Mixing by Travis Evans, Adigas Basto and Sultan Facho.

0:13:22.520 --> 0:13:24.760
<v Speaker 1>Our theme music is by Ned Beckley and Josh Hogan

0:13:24.800 --> 0:13:28.439
<v Speaker 1>of envelop Bordier. Seven Am is hosted by Ruby Jones

0:13:28.480 --> 0:13:31.199
<v Speaker 1>and myself, Daniel James. See you next week.