WEBVTT - Taking down Pablo Escobar: Steve Murphy Pt.1 0:00:01.880 --> 0:00:04.880 The public has had a long held fascination with detectives. 0:00:05.360 --> 0:00:08.840 Detective see aside of life the average persons never exposed her. 0:00:09.240 --> 0:00:12.040 I spent thirty four years as a cop. For twenty 0:00:12.080 --> 0:00:14.760 five of those years I was catching killers. That's what 0:00:14.800 --> 0:00:17.280 I did for a living. I was a homicide detective. 0:00:17.920 --> 0:00:21.040 I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead, I'm taking 0:00:21.040 --> 0:00:23.919 the public into the world in which I operated. The 0:00:23.960 --> 0:00:26.560 guests I talk to each week have amazing stories from 0:00:26.600 --> 0:00:29.280 all sides of the law. The interviews are raw and honest, 0:00:29.560 --> 0:00:31.760 just like the people I talk to. Some of the 0:00:31.840 --> 0:00:34.959 content and language might be confronting. That's because no one 0:00:34.960 --> 0:00:38.360 who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged. Join 0:00:38.440 --> 0:00:46.400 me now as I take you into this world. I 0:00:46.440 --> 0:00:50.320 absolutely love hosting this podcast and speaking to some amazing guests. 0:00:50.640 --> 0:00:52.880 And today I've got to speak to a former cop 0:00:53.080 --> 0:00:55.560 who I've greatly admired ever since I heard about this 0:00:55.680 --> 0:01:01.000 story on the hugely successful Netflix series Nakos. Steve Murphy 0:01:01.120 --> 0:01:04.720 is my guest. Him and his dea partner Harvey Penna, 0:01:05.040 --> 0:01:07.520 were part of a team who hunted down arguably the 0:01:07.560 --> 0:01:12.080 world's most wanted criminal, Pablo Escobar. He was a murdering 0:01:12.200 --> 0:01:14.560 drug lord who made billions of dollars out of the 0:01:14.560 --> 0:01:19.679 cocaine trade. Today, Steve spoke about the investigation and the 0:01:19.720 --> 0:01:22.920 impact it had on him, including living in the country 0:01:22.920 --> 0:01:24.880 with a bounty on his head. This is a crime 0:01:24.959 --> 0:01:27.640 story on steroids, and today we talk to the man 0:01:27.680 --> 0:01:29.560 who was in the thick of it, the man who 0:01:29.560 --> 0:01:31.000 brought down Pableau Escobar. 0:01:31.600 --> 0:01:35.320 Have a listen. Welcome to I Catch Killers. 0:01:35.400 --> 0:01:38.000 Thank you very much, Scary. I'm truly honored to be here. 0:01:38.200 --> 0:01:42.039 I've got to give a shout out to a common friend, 0:01:42.280 --> 0:01:44.480 lou Velosi, who put me in contact with you. 0:01:44.520 --> 0:01:47.120 And he's an interesting character, isn't he the undercover cop? 0:01:47.600 --> 0:01:50.880 You know you hit it now on the head. He 0:01:51.000 --> 0:01:53.880 is a real character. I love that guy though. He's 0:01:53.920 --> 0:01:55.600 one of my best best friends. 0:01:55.800 --> 0:01:56.400 Yeah, yeah, no. 0:01:56.720 --> 0:01:59.880 I enjoyed the chat I had with him, that's for sure. Hey, 0:02:00.400 --> 0:02:03.000 I've been a big fan of your work, and you know, 0:02:03.080 --> 0:02:07.480 from a law enforcement perspective, I've seen what you've done 0:02:07.560 --> 0:02:12.720 and the sacrifices you made, especially on the investigation tracking 0:02:12.760 --> 0:02:17.239 down Pablo Escobar. I know you'd probably like most cops 0:02:17.240 --> 0:02:19.520 and saying well, hey, I'm just doing the job. But 0:02:20.320 --> 0:02:23.480 my take on it and prepping for this and doing 0:02:23.520 --> 0:02:27.200 some research, reading your book, which I thoroughly enjoyed, and 0:02:27.280 --> 0:02:30.079 also some of the interviews you've done that you weren't 0:02:30.160 --> 0:02:33.200 just doing your job. You went above and beyond that. 0:02:33.280 --> 0:02:36.160 You were really really got in there and had a game. 0:02:36.240 --> 0:02:39.040 Well, thank you for saying that. It's you know, the 0:02:39.080 --> 0:02:41.280 truth of it. It was exciting. We were younger, it 0:02:41.360 --> 0:02:43.720 was exciting. It was the biggest thing, you know, the 0:02:43.800 --> 0:02:45.240 DEA was doing at that time. 0:02:45.320 --> 0:02:47.680 And you know how it is. 0:02:47.760 --> 0:02:52.079 Every other agent, a real police officer, would have gladly 0:02:52.120 --> 0:02:54.600 taken your place immediately if they had the opportunity. 0:02:55.360 --> 0:02:56.240 One percent. 0:02:56.440 --> 0:02:58.760 I can sit here and say I'm a bit jealous 0:02:59.560 --> 0:03:02.200 for a job like that. You start your career and 0:03:02.240 --> 0:03:04.640 you're not going to think it's going to get to 0:03:04.680 --> 0:03:06.440 what you were doing there, But we're gonna we're going 0:03:06.520 --> 0:03:10.239 to talk about that in great detail. But I got 0:03:10.240 --> 0:03:13.720 the sense it was it was personal. And yeah, I've 0:03:13.720 --> 0:03:15.880 been a homicide cop for a long time and people 0:03:15.919 --> 0:03:18.839 say you can't, can't let it get personal. I saw 0:03:18.880 --> 0:03:21.280 of say bullshit on that. I make the job personal 0:03:21.320 --> 0:03:24.360 because it drives me. I got the sense what you 0:03:24.480 --> 0:03:28.360 and Harber were doing on that case. It did become 0:03:28.400 --> 0:03:31.920 personal to you? Is that the right assessment? 0:03:32.280 --> 0:03:32.680 It is? 0:03:34.320 --> 0:03:36.200 I don't know how you cannot make it personal, you 0:03:36.240 --> 0:03:38.080 know that. I mean, you see the death and destruction 0:03:38.240 --> 0:03:41.640 that one man is responsible for, and it's offer his 0:03:41.760 --> 0:03:45.760 own power, his greed, his ego. You know, it just 0:03:45.840 --> 0:03:48.600 it's unbelievable. And you go to some of these barming 0:03:48.680 --> 0:03:51.680 sites where children, where babies have been killed just simply 0:03:51.720 --> 0:03:53.600 because they're in the wrong place at the wrong time. 0:03:54.400 --> 0:03:55.800 How can that not be personally? 0:03:56.120 --> 0:04:00.360 Yeah, well, yeah, he's he's certainly looked at now, but 0:04:00.520 --> 0:04:02.720 at the time it was starting to get a sense 0:04:02.760 --> 0:04:05.280 of it. He was considered one of the world's mass 0:04:05.360 --> 0:04:06.360 ruthless criminals. 0:04:07.080 --> 0:04:08.320 He was, he was, he was. 0:04:09.280 --> 0:04:11.160 I don't know if you ever saw the show here 0:04:11.160 --> 0:04:16.440 in the United States, America's Most Wanted yep, yep. So 0:04:16.480 --> 0:04:18.880 they came, they flew down to Columbia and we took 0:04:18.880 --> 0:04:21.320 a film crew to Mediine and they did one episode 0:04:21.320 --> 0:04:25.320 only of the World's Most Wanted. That was Pablo Escobar. Yeah, 0:04:25.400 --> 0:04:27.799 we're I mean, we're talking about the world's very first 0:04:27.920 --> 0:04:28.760 Narco terrorist. 0:04:29.160 --> 0:04:34.040 Yeah, described saying Naco terrorists Bright break that damn for us. 0:04:34.320 --> 0:04:35.880 So, you know, and I used to have the same 0:04:35.960 --> 0:04:38.240 question because I'd never heard that term. Uh, and we 0:04:38.360 --> 0:04:40.039 kind of coined it, believe it or not, but it's 0:04:40.120 --> 0:04:42.880 kind of caught on. So a narco terrorist is just 0:04:42.920 --> 0:04:48.719 basically a narco narcotics trafficker who employs terroristic activities in 0:04:48.760 --> 0:04:52.000 his daily routine. And so what we saw with Pablo 0:04:52.120 --> 0:04:54.480 Escobar is when he didn't get his way, he declared 0:04:54.520 --> 0:04:57.800 war on his own country. He was indiscriminately setting off 0:04:57.839 --> 0:05:02.760 car bombs, not only against the government but also against 0:05:02.760 --> 0:05:07.240 the Cali cartel. The murders were just completely out of control. 0:05:08.080 --> 0:05:11.240 We used to say that Pablo, in our estimation, Pablo 0:05:11.360 --> 0:05:15.720 was responsible for maybe ten, fifteen, twenty thousand murders. There 0:05:15.760 --> 0:05:18.200 was a documentary a few years ago that we were 0:05:18.200 --> 0:05:22.599 on that they also interviewed one of his remainings. Tocario's 0:05:22.680 --> 0:05:26.320 a guy named went by the nickname of Popeye. His 0:05:26.400 --> 0:05:30.520 real name is John Hiro of Alaskaz Vasquez. He was 0:05:30.560 --> 0:05:32.520 he's dead now, he died of cancer, thank goodness. But 0:05:33.800 --> 0:05:36.239 what sounded wrong, didn't it? But I mean that guy's evil. 0:05:36.279 --> 0:05:39.880 No, yeah, I understand where he's coming from there and He. 0:05:39.880 --> 0:05:42.520 Says on that documentary that Pablo, he said the Green 0:05:42.560 --> 0:05:45.680 Goes have it all wrong. Pablo is responsible for more 0:05:45.720 --> 0:05:50.520 than fifty thousand murders. And then Popeye in that same documentary, 0:05:50.520 --> 0:05:52.320 and you can see this, I think it's I think 0:05:52.360 --> 0:05:56.719 it's on the Discovery Channel. He says that he orchestrated 0:05:56.920 --> 0:05:59.760 as many as three thousand murders himself, and the Heat 0:06:00.360 --> 0:06:05.200 committed over three hundred murders himself, and he's laughing about 0:06:05.200 --> 0:06:07.320 his smiling about it. I mean, these guys are just 0:06:07.400 --> 0:06:11.200 like demons walking. They're pure evil walking on the face 0:06:11.240 --> 0:06:11.720 of our earth. 0:06:12.080 --> 0:06:15.279 Yeah, the sense of I got, and I think I've 0:06:15.320 --> 0:06:19.039 actually seen him interviewed, whether it's the documentary you're referring to, 0:06:19.200 --> 0:06:22.839 but there just seems to be no remorse, and it's 0:06:22.880 --> 0:06:24.840 just they get conditioned to it, and it's just their 0:06:25.200 --> 0:06:28.120 way of life. To murder someone life meant nothing. 0:06:29.040 --> 0:06:32.719 That's exactly right. And in Pope's case, he even murdered 0:06:32.760 --> 0:06:35.799 his girlfriend because Pablo told him to. Pabla was worried 0:06:35.839 --> 0:06:38.080 that she was talking to people, and he went and 0:06:38.160 --> 0:06:39.400 murdered his own girlfriend. 0:06:39.560 --> 0:06:40.400 Yeah. 0:06:39.960 --> 0:06:43.040 I got the sense of that as well, that if 0:06:43.080 --> 0:06:45.080 there was any risk. Well, we're not just going to 0:06:45.200 --> 0:06:47.400 take a risk, would just get the person killed without 0:06:47.400 --> 0:06:48.360 a second thought. 0:06:48.760 --> 0:06:51.800 Without a second thought, that's exactly right. No conscience, no 0:06:51.880 --> 0:06:55.280 guilt feelings, no remorse, nothing, just business. 0:06:56.040 --> 0:07:00.000 Well, Steve, you didn't start off as a fresh blue eye, 0:07:00.000 --> 0:07:02.000 so I'm ready to go take on the wheel the 0:07:02.000 --> 0:07:05.200 as a law enforcement officer, thinking you're going to be 0:07:05.279 --> 0:07:08.240 chasing the world's dangerous man. How did you find your 0:07:08.279 --> 0:07:10.560 way into policing and law enforcement? 0:07:11.480 --> 0:07:15.080 You know, Gary, it's and this if you read the book, 0:07:15.120 --> 0:07:17.000 you read this story. When I was about ten years old, 0:07:17.040 --> 0:07:19.440 I had my first running with the police as a 0:07:19.520 --> 0:07:22.160 kid in Tennessee, the state of Tennessee. And we're camping 0:07:22.200 --> 0:07:25.000 out in the backyard and you know, some middle it's 0:07:25.000 --> 0:07:26.840 probably one o'clock in the morning, and we're riding our 0:07:26.840 --> 0:07:29.000 bicycles through the neighborhood and you know, our parents would 0:07:29.040 --> 0:07:31.160 kill us if they knew what we were doing. There 0:07:31.200 --> 0:07:33.840 were some snack machines at all night laundry mat but 0:07:33.880 --> 0:07:35.680 none of us had any money. So we decided we'd 0:07:35.680 --> 0:07:37.560 break in a house because you know, that just really 0:07:37.560 --> 0:07:38.000 made sense. 0:07:38.200 --> 0:07:39.600 It makes sense as a ten year old. 0:07:39.680 --> 0:07:43.920 Yep, So we go to this house and we're trying 0:07:43.920 --> 0:07:45.320 to figure out how we're going to break in when 0:07:45.360 --> 0:07:49.640 we're at this bedroom window and apparently we were making 0:07:49.640 --> 0:07:51.920 a lot of noise because the cops showed up and 0:07:52.040 --> 0:07:54.160 hit us with the spotlight. You know, we were like 0:07:54.200 --> 0:07:56.720 a deer in the headlights, just frozen. I mean, we 0:07:56.720 --> 0:07:59.440 were so scared. We didn't even run. And the two 0:07:59.480 --> 0:08:01.160 police offs just came over and talked to us, and 0:08:02.120 --> 0:08:03.960 you know, we told I mean, we were honest, We 0:08:04.000 --> 0:08:06.280 told him what we were doing. They said, boys, you 0:08:06.360 --> 0:08:08.800 got a decision to make. You either go to jail 0:08:08.840 --> 0:08:10.280 with for you know, go with us and go to 0:08:10.320 --> 0:08:12.320 prison for the rest of your life, or we take 0:08:12.320 --> 0:08:14.320 you home to your parents. And we kind of looked 0:08:14.320 --> 0:08:16.000 at each other, like take us to jail, because I 0:08:16.040 --> 0:08:19.600 don't want to go home and face my dad. But 0:08:20.360 --> 0:08:23.480 that event just stuck in my mind and it really 0:08:23.520 --> 0:08:26.000 impressed me. And even at ten years old, you just 0:08:26.000 --> 0:08:28.440 think it's cool, right, I mean, you're not really processing 0:08:28.480 --> 0:08:31.760 in your mind as an adult, but it stuck with 0:08:31.840 --> 0:08:34.160 me and I just I liked the uniforms, and you know, 0:08:34.320 --> 0:08:37.280 back then, police officers had discretion to make decisions on 0:08:37.320 --> 0:08:40.280 the street. Realizing you know, this is just a bunch 0:08:40.320 --> 0:08:43.439 of kids about to get in trouble, and they could, 0:08:44.200 --> 0:08:46.199 rather than putting us in jail and you know, send 0:08:46.280 --> 0:08:49.319 us a juvenile hall, they could release us to our parents, 0:08:49.400 --> 0:08:50.640 and the punishment I'm sure was. 0:08:50.640 --> 0:08:51.320 A lot worse. 0:08:52.160 --> 0:08:54.520 But as I got older, that's all I wanted to 0:08:54.559 --> 0:08:57.000 do is be a cop. My dad was a retired 0:08:57.080 --> 0:09:01.120 minister and when he retired him my uncle, my favorite uncle, 0:09:01.200 --> 0:09:04.840 Uncle Joe. They started a flooring business, a carpet business, 0:09:04.880 --> 0:09:06.840 and I was the only son of both families, so 0:09:06.880 --> 0:09:09.359 it was always anticipated I would take over the business. 0:09:09.960 --> 0:09:12.440 I started working in carpet at fourteen years old. I 0:09:12.480 --> 0:09:16.120 hated it then, I hate it now, not what I 0:09:16.160 --> 0:09:20.080 wanted to do. My dad sent me to college to 0:09:20.080 --> 0:09:23.160 get a business degree, and my first semester I came 0:09:23.200 --> 0:09:26.200 out on academic probation because I hated it. So he 0:09:26.240 --> 0:09:29.400 maybe come home and I went to local college. They 0:09:29.440 --> 0:09:31.760 had just started their criminal justice program, so I got 0:09:31.760 --> 0:09:35.680 my four year degree there and became I took my 0:09:35.720 --> 0:09:39.840 first police test. I was eighteen years old, and my 0:09:39.920 --> 0:09:41.960 professor's the one that told me I should do it, 0:09:42.000 --> 0:09:43.199 and I said, you know, they're not going to hire 0:09:43.240 --> 0:09:45.440 me at eighteen. He's like, but you get experienced taking 0:09:45.480 --> 0:09:47.280 the tests of them. When you're old enough, they will 0:09:47.679 --> 0:09:50.120 hire you. You know, you'll know what to expect. Well, it 0:09:50.120 --> 0:09:52.400 turns out I scored the high score on that test. 0:09:52.679 --> 0:09:54.679 I mean the next closest guy behind me was ten 0:09:54.720 --> 0:09:58.400 points down. And not that I'm an overly smart guy. 0:09:58.400 --> 0:09:59.880 I was just you know, I was used to studying. 0:10:00.000 --> 0:10:04.120 I could take a test, and it ended up at 0:10:04.120 --> 0:10:05.839 the city that I went to work for in southern 0:10:05.840 --> 0:10:09.200 West Virginia hired me one month after I turned eighteen 0:10:09.240 --> 0:10:12.880 years old. I couldn't buy alcohol, I couldn't buy cigarettes, 0:10:12.920 --> 0:10:15.600 I couldn't buy a gun. I couldn't break by bullets. 0:10:15.640 --> 0:10:17.480 But I could carry a gun and I could use it. 0:10:17.559 --> 0:10:20.400 If I determined that was trying to save a life. 0:10:20.400 --> 0:10:24.280 That very right, dirty is And I do recall in 0:10:24.320 --> 0:10:26.760 your books saying that you still have a reaction if 0:10:26.760 --> 0:10:30.520 you go past the flooring store or that from what 0:10:31.280 --> 0:10:33.760 your life could have been. Not that there's anything wrong 0:10:33.800 --> 0:10:37.920 with that life, but you discovered discovered policing and the 0:10:37.960 --> 0:10:43.600 world that that had to offer your first in You've 0:10:43.640 --> 0:10:46.400 been across to Australia a few times, and our set 0:10:46.440 --> 0:10:48.840 up with law enforcement. We have federal police and then 0:10:48.880 --> 0:10:53.000 we have state police. But with your first police force 0:10:53.160 --> 0:10:55.480 or the section that you worked in, what was there 0:10:55.840 --> 0:11:01.360 thirty cops or thirty right? Sorry, I thought it was small, 0:11:01.600 --> 0:11:05.880 thirty five. That's a big beginning. Tell us about that. 0:11:06.000 --> 0:11:07.840 And you even had to buy your own gun, because 0:11:07.880 --> 0:11:11.000 it's hard for us to comprehend over here in Australia 0:11:11.400 --> 0:11:14.280 that that's the way that law enforcement is done over 0:11:14.280 --> 0:11:15.280 in the US. 0:11:15.880 --> 0:11:18.400 Yeah, and I'm not sure sure that it is nowadays, 0:11:18.480 --> 0:11:22.880 but this was back in nineteen seventy five. They provided 0:11:22.920 --> 0:11:25.480 your uniform, and they would buy your shoes and things 0:11:25.520 --> 0:11:27.520 like that, but you had to provide your own weapon, 0:11:27.640 --> 0:11:30.000 and you're on your gun belt and your you know, 0:11:30.120 --> 0:11:34.439 for your handcuffs and all that stuff. And so one 0:11:34.440 --> 0:11:37.400 of the police officers that i'd befriended when I was 0:11:37.520 --> 0:11:40.280 I'd actually done a college internship with the city police department, 0:11:40.320 --> 0:11:43.000 so they all knew me already, and one of the officers, 0:11:43.000 --> 0:11:44.920 I gave him the money. He bought me my first gun, 0:11:45.320 --> 0:11:47.440 and my dad bought my bullets for me. 0:11:50.240 --> 0:11:52.960 It's hard, it's just it's so funny. Now it's hard 0:11:52.960 --> 0:11:55.880 to comprehend. Okay, well you got your gun, you got 0:11:55.880 --> 0:11:58.240 your bullets. How did you find those is because you 0:11:58.320 --> 0:12:00.120 moved around a bit. How long did you stay and 0:12:00.320 --> 0:12:02.480 was it blue Bluefield? 0:12:03.200 --> 0:12:05.360 Uh place in West Virginia? 0:12:05.600 --> 0:12:06.480 How long were you there for? 0:12:06.640 --> 0:12:08.400 Yes, sir, six years. 0:12:08.800 --> 0:12:13.440 Six years and working uniform, not making very much money. 0:12:13.520 --> 0:12:15.600 I you know, worked as much overtime as I could. 0:12:15.640 --> 0:12:18.880 I was working off duty jobs. The college I went to, 0:12:18.920 --> 0:12:21.880 I actually had a little business and security business, and 0:12:21.920 --> 0:12:24.000 so I got the sports contract for the college for 0:12:24.080 --> 0:12:28.960 basketball games and baseball and football. I don't know if 0:12:29.000 --> 0:12:31.720 you know what Amway is, but even sold Amway. 0:12:32.040 --> 0:12:35.160 To know what Amway. And I'm not buying off you. Yeah, 0:12:35.280 --> 0:12:37.360 I don't care what you say, Steve. I respect you, 0:12:37.400 --> 0:12:38.920 but no, we're not going down that path. 0:12:39.520 --> 0:12:40.240 I've got. 0:12:41.760 --> 0:12:44.880 No sorry, I'm traumatized. I had a mate that said, 0:12:45.200 --> 0:12:47.439 I want to catch up, Well what about And it 0:12:47.520 --> 0:12:50.679 was doing an Amway pitch years ago, so yeah, I 0:12:50.679 --> 0:12:51.360 do know about it. 0:12:51.400 --> 0:12:54.520 Oh yeah, And there was even a one of the 0:12:54.520 --> 0:12:56.800 local firemen was an electrician when he was off duty, 0:12:56.840 --> 0:12:58.880 so I worked for him as an electricians helper. So 0:12:58.920 --> 0:13:00.360 I mean, you did just do with you had to 0:13:00.400 --> 0:13:01.200 do to pay the bills. 0:13:01.200 --> 0:13:05.680 You know, now, I understand. Then you moved to another area. 0:13:05.800 --> 0:13:09.480 What was that the north Transit transit policing all of 0:13:09.559 --> 0:13:10.280 the railways. 0:13:10.679 --> 0:13:13.840 Well, there was not Transit police but Norfolk and West 0:13:14.080 --> 0:13:16.760 Back then it was Northfolk and Western Railroad. It's now 0:13:16.840 --> 0:13:18.280 the Norfolk Southern Railroad. 0:13:19.600 --> 0:13:19.760 Yeah. 0:13:19.840 --> 0:13:24.559 Became a detective with them, moved down to Norfolk, Virginia. 0:13:25.720 --> 0:13:29.840 It was quite honestly, it was like a glorified security 0:13:29.960 --> 0:13:33.080 guard the job they had me doing, and I hated it. 0:13:33.200 --> 0:13:36.720 He was boring. I mean, it's just terrible. And transferred 0:13:36.760 --> 0:13:39.200 back to West Virginia. After two years as a railroad cop. 0:13:41.240 --> 0:13:44.880 Gotten involved in a couple of shootings there, mostly backing 0:13:45.000 --> 0:13:48.080 up other law enforcement agencies. And the chief I had 0:13:48.120 --> 0:13:50.120 at the time had never been a real cop. He'd 0:13:50.120 --> 0:13:52.280 always been a railroad cop. And I'm not taking anything 0:13:52.320 --> 0:13:56.640 away from railroad cops. I know some really fantastic investigators, 0:13:56.640 --> 0:13:59.920 but he really got upset when I helped the city 0:14:00.160 --> 0:14:02.600 where this is the city department I used to work for, 0:14:03.360 --> 0:14:06.199 so I know all the cops there. A rookie You've 0:14:06.200 --> 0:14:07.559 got in a shooting one night, so I went and 0:14:07.640 --> 0:14:10.640 backed him up. And uh a man was laying shot 0:14:10.679 --> 0:14:12.520 on the sidewalk and I had to go grab him 0:14:12.520 --> 0:14:15.560 and drag him in a recessed doorway and we had, 0:14:15.800 --> 0:14:17.760 you know, had a stand off there for a couple hours, 0:14:17.800 --> 0:14:20.960 and the guy finally surrendered. The shooter did, but my 0:14:21.040 --> 0:14:23.120 boss came in. I called my boss the next morning 0:14:23.200 --> 0:14:25.800 and told him what happened, and uh so he came in, 0:14:25.880 --> 0:14:27.800 and man, he was mad at me. He was He 0:14:27.800 --> 0:14:30.720 said that had nothing to do with railroad business, you know, 0:14:30.760 --> 0:14:35.040 And I mean he's chewing me out. So I told him, 0:14:35.080 --> 0:14:37.960 I said, chief, I'm the only railroad cop on duty 0:14:38.000 --> 0:14:41.720 for twenty six counties, which is an extremely large geographical area. 0:14:42.160 --> 0:14:43.840 Where do you think I go when I need help? 0:14:44.720 --> 0:14:46.840 So you know, when these guys need help, I'm going 0:14:46.880 --> 0:14:48.280 to be there for him if I can get to him. 0:14:49.000 --> 0:14:51.320 So he threatened to get me fired, and and uh, 0:14:52.120 --> 0:14:54.840 you know, just motivated me to go find something else 0:14:54.880 --> 0:14:56.560 to do, because that's I don't I'm not going to 0:14:56.640 --> 0:14:57.520 work for somebody like that. 0:14:57.760 --> 0:15:00.680 Yeah, I think it's a pathway working. 0:15:00.760 --> 0:15:04.960 And when I say working like genuine cops that they're 0:15:05.000 --> 0:15:07.720 going to clash with bosses like that, that really you 0:15:07.800 --> 0:15:09.960 wonder what they're in the job for when they don't 0:15:10.040 --> 0:15:13.960 understand what the role of a copy is. So I 0:15:15.080 --> 0:15:17.000 recall that in your book, and I thought, yeah, I 0:15:17.000 --> 0:15:19.160 can just picture the type of ship you would have 0:15:19.160 --> 0:15:23.520 got into and just shake your head, and yeah, it's 0:15:23.520 --> 0:15:24.480 frustrating you this. 0:15:25.240 --> 0:15:26.680 I'll give you another example. This guy. 0:15:26.760 --> 0:15:29.560 We had somebody broke into one of the railroad buildings 0:15:29.840 --> 0:15:32.280 at a remote site and they'd thrown a rock through 0:15:32.280 --> 0:15:34.840 the window. So I went and investigated, and you know, 0:15:34.880 --> 0:15:37.520 couldn't find my fingerprints and they didn't get very much. 0:15:38.240 --> 0:15:40.080 And so I came back and told him what I 0:15:40.400 --> 0:15:44.040 was preparing my reports. So where's the rock? So's it's 0:15:44.080 --> 0:15:45.520 in parking lot over there. I threw it back on 0:15:45.680 --> 0:15:49.880 you're going to in the draveway, Well, did your fingerprint it? 0:15:49.880 --> 0:15:54.120 Say it's the rock. It's porous, it won't absorb the 0:15:54.160 --> 0:15:56.720 oils on your fingers that you can fingerprint and lift 0:15:56.760 --> 0:15:59.600 the That's how unexperienced. 0:15:59.520 --> 0:16:00.800 I read, Steve. 0:16:00.920 --> 0:16:03.160 I always think there's a stream for them if they 0:16:03.200 --> 0:16:06.280 want to go through in the management level. But I 0:16:06.360 --> 0:16:09.960 always clashed with ones that yeah, it was obviously career 0:16:09.960 --> 0:16:13.120 was management. I was an operational police officer. I respect 0:16:13.160 --> 0:16:15.240 the work you do as a manager. Please respect the 0:16:15.240 --> 0:16:19.240 work I do as an operational police officer. But it's worldwide, 0:16:19.280 --> 0:16:21.320 isn't I can talk to a cop from anywhere and 0:16:21.360 --> 0:16:24.920 everyone's got the same type of story that the same experience. 0:16:25.600 --> 0:16:30.240 So okay, from absolutely from those experiences, you're thinking, DA, 0:16:30.480 --> 0:16:32.440 you wanted to go to the DA. What's the process 0:16:32.480 --> 0:16:34.400 to get into the DA? 0:16:35.160 --> 0:16:38.920 Well it Honestly, I had never heard of DEA. I 0:16:38.920 --> 0:16:41.600 didn't know what it was. And one of my fellow 0:16:41.640 --> 0:16:44.080 railroad police officers had been a Virginia State trooper that 0:16:44.160 --> 0:16:47.560 worked with DEA on a task force, and so he 0:16:47.600 --> 0:16:50.200 would tell me stories. And I was always interested in 0:16:50.320 --> 0:16:54.280 archatic's cases as a uniform carp so I got to 0:16:54.320 --> 0:16:56.360 looking at it. I had to finish up my college degree. 0:16:56.480 --> 0:16:58.280 I still had a few classes to take, so I 0:16:58.320 --> 0:17:03.680 did that apply in nineteen eighty five. Took two years 0:17:03.760 --> 0:17:06.639 before I finally got hired. And you know, through the 0:17:07.040 --> 0:17:09.680 background investigation and the interviews that you go through and 0:17:09.720 --> 0:17:11.919 all the things that you have to go through. So 0:17:12.680 --> 0:17:16.920 finally got hired and had just moved back to Norfolk, Virginia. 0:17:17.760 --> 0:17:20.679 Was like my first week there was living in a 0:17:20.720 --> 0:17:23.520 motel room because I didn't have an apartment yet. And 0:17:23.560 --> 0:17:25.760 they called and they said they called me on a 0:17:25.920 --> 0:17:28.480 like a Wednesday, and they said, hey, we've got an 0:17:28.520 --> 0:17:29.800 opening a class starting Monday. 0:17:29.840 --> 0:17:30.400 Can you be here? 0:17:30.440 --> 0:17:34.520 And I said absolutely, So I went from there, I 0:17:34.560 --> 0:17:37.880 went to the main office. My boss there in Norfolk 0:17:37.920 --> 0:17:39.639 was a guy that used to be a police officer 0:17:39.680 --> 0:17:42.159 with me, so I know him very well. And they 0:17:42.200 --> 0:17:44.359 all knew I was applying to DEA. So he, you know, 0:17:44.400 --> 0:17:46.840 I said, listen, I've got two weeks leave coming. I'm 0:17:46.840 --> 0:17:49.119 going to turn my notice in today. And he's like, 0:17:49.119 --> 0:17:51.119 I understand completely, Murph, we hate to lose you, but 0:17:51.400 --> 0:17:54.239 you know, do what you got to do. So that 0:17:54.400 --> 0:17:57.359 night I packed up. The next day, Thursday, I drove home. 0:17:57.680 --> 0:17:59.840 My wife was still living in West Virginia at the time. 0:18:00.040 --> 0:18:04.680 You hadn't even moved down yet, and uh got everything ready, 0:18:04.720 --> 0:18:07.520 and Sunday I drove to the da Academy in Quantica, 0:18:07.600 --> 0:18:10.320 Virginia and started my adventure there. 0:18:10.680 --> 0:18:14.320 Okay, how just to explain to people. I understand what 0:18:14.440 --> 0:18:18.359 DEI is, but explain to people what the role of 0:18:18.400 --> 0:18:19.119 the DEA is. 0:18:19.119 --> 0:18:23.040 What said, Chada, you know this is interesting if you know, 0:18:23.320 --> 0:18:24.919 I'm not sure you probably know a lot about our 0:18:24.960 --> 0:18:27.720 government here because it's crazy things going on. 0:18:27.720 --> 0:18:31.680 Right, Yeah, a little bit in the news every recent times. 0:18:32.000 --> 0:18:36.000 It's like watching reality TV. But anyway, oh my. 0:18:35.880 --> 0:18:38.320 Gosh, this is going to be the strangest four years 0:18:38.320 --> 0:18:43.000 I think any of us living. It's in de A 0:18:44.000 --> 0:18:46.280 most law enforce or I'm sorry, in federal law enforcement 0:18:46.320 --> 0:18:49.560 here in the United States. We have several different agencies 0:18:50.320 --> 0:18:54.639 and the only single mission agencies are the Internal Revenue Service, 0:18:54.640 --> 0:18:58.080 which are the tax collectors, and the Drug Enforcement Administration. 0:18:58.840 --> 0:19:03.080 Our single mission is to enforce the US Code Control 0:19:03.160 --> 0:19:07.480 Substances Act, and how that also carries over into money laundering. 0:19:07.600 --> 0:19:09.280 But you know, you've got to have an attorney to 0:19:09.280 --> 0:19:12.240 prosecute those cases, and they kind of go hand in hand, 0:19:12.280 --> 0:19:14.560 and you know, and you work in a task force environment, 0:19:14.640 --> 0:19:17.280 so you sometimes you have an IRS agent working with you. 0:19:18.119 --> 0:19:18.920 But that's what we do. 0:19:19.000 --> 0:19:22.240 We we we don't go after the users. We're not 0:19:22.400 --> 0:19:26.840 after street level dealers. We're after the largest dealers in 0:19:26.880 --> 0:19:30.400 the world that are having a negative impact on our country. 0:19:30.600 --> 0:19:33.879 So if you look at DEA's footprint, we only have 0:19:34.400 --> 0:19:36.640 if we have a full complement of agents. That's only 0:19:36.720 --> 0:19:40.000 forty six hundred agents. I think right now DEA is 0:19:40.040 --> 0:19:41.440 down about a thousand agents. 0:19:42.240 --> 0:19:43.760