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Speaker 1: The public has had a long held fascination with detectives.

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Speaker 1: Detective see aside of life the average persons never exposed her.

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Speaker 1: I spent thirty four years as a cop. For twenty

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Speaker 1: five of those years I was catching killers. That's what

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Speaker 1: I did for a living. I was a homicide detective.

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Speaker 1: I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead, I'm taking

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Speaker 1: the public into the world in which I operated. The

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Speaker 1: guests I talk to each week have amazing stories from

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Speaker 1: all sides of the law. The interviews are raw and honest,

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Speaker 1: just like the people I talk to. Some of the

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Speaker 1: content and language might be confronting. That's because no one

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Speaker 1: who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged. Join

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Speaker 1: me now as I take you into this world. I

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Speaker 1: absolutely love hosting this podcast and speaking to some amazing guests.

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Speaker 1: And today I've got to speak to a former cop

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Speaker 1: who I've greatly admired ever since I heard about this

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Speaker 1: story on the hugely successful Netflix series Nakos. Steve Murphy

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Speaker 1: is my guest. Him and his dea partner Harvey Penna,

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Speaker 1: were part of a team who hunted down arguably the

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Speaker 1: world's most wanted criminal, Pablo Escobar. He was a murdering

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Speaker 1: drug lord who made billions of dollars out of the

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Speaker 1: cocaine trade. Today, Steve spoke about the investigation and the

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Speaker 1: impact it had on him, including living in the country

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Speaker 1: with a bounty on his head. This is a crime

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Speaker 1: story on steroids, and today we talk to the man

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Speaker 1: who was in the thick of it, the man who

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Speaker 1: brought down Pableau Escobar.

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Speaker 2: Have a listen. Welcome to I Catch Killers.

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Speaker 3: Thank you very much, Scary. I'm truly honored to be here.

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Speaker 1: I've got to give a shout out to a common friend,

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Speaker 1: lou Velosi, who put me in contact with you.

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Speaker 2: And he's an interesting character, isn't he the undercover cop?

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Speaker 3: You know you hit it now on the head. He

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Speaker 3: is a real character. I love that guy though. He's

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Speaker 3: one of my best best friends.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, no.

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Speaker 1: I enjoyed the chat I had with him, that's for sure. Hey,

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Speaker 1: I've been a big fan of your work, and you know,

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Speaker 1: from a law enforcement perspective, I've seen what you've done

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Speaker 1: and the sacrifices you made, especially on the investigation tracking

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Speaker 1: down Pablo Escobar. I know you'd probably like most cops

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Speaker 1: and saying well, hey, I'm just doing the job. But

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Speaker 1: my take on it and prepping for this and doing

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Speaker 1: some research, reading your book, which I thoroughly enjoyed, and

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Speaker 1: also some of the interviews you've done that you weren't

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Speaker 1: just doing your job. You went above and beyond that.

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Speaker 1: You were really really got in there and had a game.

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Speaker 3: Well, thank you for saying that. It's you know, the

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Speaker 3: truth of it. It was exciting. We were younger, it

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Speaker 3: was exciting. It was the biggest thing, you know, the

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Speaker 3: DEA was doing at that time.

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Speaker 4: And you know how it is.

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Speaker 3: Every other agent, a real police officer, would have gladly

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Speaker 3: taken your place immediately if they had the opportunity.

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Speaker 2: One percent.

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Speaker 1: I can sit here and say I'm a bit jealous

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Speaker 1: for a job like that. You start your career and

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Speaker 1: you're not going to think it's going to get to

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Speaker 1: what you were doing there, But we're gonna we're going

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Speaker 1: to talk about that in great detail. But I got

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Speaker 1: the sense it was it was personal. And yeah, I've

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Speaker 1: been a homicide cop for a long time and people

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Speaker 1: say you can't, can't let it get personal. I saw

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Speaker 1: of say bullshit on that. I make the job personal

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Speaker 1: because it drives me. I got the sense what you

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Speaker 1: and Harber were doing on that case. It did become

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Speaker 1: personal to you? Is that the right assessment?

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Speaker 4: It is?

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Speaker 3: I don't know how you cannot make it personal, you

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Speaker 3: know that. I mean, you see the death and destruction

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Speaker 3: that one man is responsible for, and it's offer his

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Speaker 3: own power, his greed, his ego. You know, it just

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Speaker 3: it's unbelievable. And you go to some of these barming

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Speaker 3: sites where children, where babies have been killed just simply

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Speaker 3: because they're in the wrong place at the wrong time.

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Speaker 4: How can that not be personally?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, well, yeah, he's he's certainly looked at now, but

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Speaker 1: at the time it was starting to get a sense

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Speaker 1: of it. He was considered one of the world's mass

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Speaker 1: ruthless criminals.

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Speaker 4: He was, he was, he was.

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Speaker 3: I don't know if you ever saw the show here

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Speaker 3: in the United States, America's Most Wanted yep, yep. So

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Speaker 3: they came, they flew down to Columbia and we took

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Speaker 3: a film crew to Mediine and they did one episode

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Speaker 3: only of the World's Most Wanted. That was Pablo Escobar. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: we're I mean, we're talking about the world's very first

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Speaker 3: Narco terrorist.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, described saying Naco terrorists Bright break that damn for us.

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Speaker 3: So, you know, and I used to have the same

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Speaker 3: question because I'd never heard that term. Uh, and we

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Speaker 3: kind of coined it, believe it or not, but it's

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Speaker 3: kind of caught on. So a narco terrorist is just

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Speaker 3: basically a narco narcotics trafficker who employs terroristic activities in

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Speaker 3: his daily routine. And so what we saw with Pablo

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Speaker 3: Escobar is when he didn't get his way, he declared

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Speaker 3: war on his own country. He was indiscriminately setting off

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Speaker 3: car bombs, not only against the government but also against

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Speaker 3: the Cali cartel. The murders were just completely out of control.

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Speaker 3: We used to say that Pablo, in our estimation, Pablo

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Speaker 3: was responsible for maybe ten, fifteen, twenty thousand murders. There

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Speaker 3: was a documentary a few years ago that we were

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Speaker 3: on that they also interviewed one of his remainings. Tocario's

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Speaker 3: a guy named went by the nickname of Popeye. His

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Speaker 3: real name is John Hiro of Alaskaz Vasquez. He was

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Speaker 3: he's dead now, he died of cancer, thank goodness. But

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Speaker 3: what sounded wrong, didn't it? But I mean that guy's evil.

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Speaker 2: No, yeah, I understand where he's coming from there and He.

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Speaker 3: Says on that documentary that Pablo, he said the Green

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Speaker 3: Goes have it all wrong. Pablo is responsible for more

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Speaker 3: than fifty thousand murders. And then Popeye in that same documentary,

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Speaker 3: and you can see this, I think it's I think

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Speaker 3: it's on the Discovery Channel. He says that he orchestrated

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Speaker 3: as many as three thousand murders himself, and the Heat

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Speaker 3: committed over three hundred murders himself, and he's laughing about

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Speaker 3: his smiling about it. I mean, these guys are just

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Speaker 3: like demons walking. They're pure evil walking on the face

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Speaker 3: of our earth.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, the sense of I got, and I think I've

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Speaker 1: actually seen him interviewed, whether it's the documentary you're referring to,

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Speaker 1: but there just seems to be no remorse, and it's

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Speaker 1: just they get conditioned to it, and it's just their

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Speaker 1: way of life. To murder someone life meant nothing.

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Speaker 3: That's exactly right. And in Pope's case, he even murdered

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Speaker 3: his girlfriend because Pablo told him to. Pabla was worried

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Speaker 3: that she was talking to people, and he went and

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Speaker 3: murdered his own girlfriend.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: I got the sense of that as well, that if

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Speaker 1: there was any risk. Well, we're not just going to

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Speaker 1: take a risk, would just get the person killed without

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Speaker 1: a second thought.

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Speaker 3: Without a second thought, that's exactly right. No conscience, no

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Speaker 3: guilt feelings, no remorse, nothing, just business.

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Speaker 1: Well, Steve, you didn't start off as a fresh blue eye,

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Speaker 1: so I'm ready to go take on the wheel the

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Speaker 1: as a law enforcement officer, thinking you're going to be

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Speaker 1: chasing the world's dangerous man. How did you find your

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Speaker 1: way into policing and law enforcement?

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Speaker 3: You know, Gary, it's and this if you read the book,

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Speaker 3: you read this story. When I was about ten years old,

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Speaker 3: I had my first running with the police as a

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Speaker 3: kid in Tennessee, the state of Tennessee. And we're camping

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Speaker 3: out in the backyard and you know, some middle it's

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Speaker 3: probably one o'clock in the morning, and we're riding our

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Speaker 3: bicycles through the neighborhood and you know, our parents would

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Speaker 3: kill us if they knew what we were doing. There

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Speaker 3: were some snack machines at all night laundry mat but

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Speaker 3: none of us had any money. So we decided we'd

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Speaker 3: break in a house because you know, that just really

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Speaker 3: made sense.

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Speaker 2: It makes sense as a ten year old.

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Speaker 3: Yep, So we go to this house and we're trying

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Speaker 3: to figure out how we're going to break in when

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Speaker 3: we're at this bedroom window and apparently we were making

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Speaker 3: a lot of noise because the cops showed up and

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Speaker 3: hit us with the spotlight. You know, we were like

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Speaker 3: a deer in the headlights, just frozen. I mean, we

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Speaker 3: were so scared. We didn't even run. And the two

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Speaker 3: police offs just came over and talked to us, and

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Speaker 3: you know, we told I mean, we were honest, We

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Speaker 3: told him what we were doing. They said, boys, you

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Speaker 3: got a decision to make. You either go to jail

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Speaker 3: with for you know, go with us and go to

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Speaker 3: prison for the rest of your life, or we take

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Speaker 3: you home to your parents. And we kind of looked

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Speaker 3: at each other, like take us to jail, because I

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Speaker 3: don't want to go home and face my dad. But

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Speaker 3: that event just stuck in my mind and it really

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Speaker 3: impressed me. And even at ten years old, you just

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Speaker 3: think it's cool, right, I mean, you're not really processing

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Speaker 3: in your mind as an adult, but it stuck with

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Speaker 3: me and I just I liked the uniforms, and you know,

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Speaker 3: back then, police officers had discretion to make decisions on

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Speaker 3: the street. Realizing you know, this is just a bunch

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Speaker 3: of kids about to get in trouble, and they could,

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Speaker 3: rather than putting us in jail and you know, send

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Speaker 3: us a juvenile hall, they could release us to our parents,

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Speaker 3: and the punishment I'm sure was.

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Speaker 4: A lot worse.

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Speaker 3: But as I got older, that's all I wanted to

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Speaker 3: do is be a cop. My dad was a retired

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Speaker 3: minister and when he retired him my uncle, my favorite uncle,

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Speaker 3: Uncle Joe. They started a flooring business, a carpet business,

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Speaker 3: and I was the only son of both families, so

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Speaker 3: it was always anticipated I would take over the business.

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Speaker 3: I started working in carpet at fourteen years old. I

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Speaker 3: hated it then, I hate it now, not what I

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Speaker 3: wanted to do. My dad sent me to college to

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Speaker 3: get a business degree, and my first semester I came

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Speaker 3: out on academic probation because I hated it. So he

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Speaker 3: maybe come home and I went to local college. They

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Speaker 3: had just started their criminal justice program, so I got

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Speaker 3: my four year degree there and became I took my

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Speaker 3: first police test. I was eighteen years old, and my

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Speaker 3: professor's the one that told me I should do it,

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Speaker 3: and I said, you know, they're not going to hire

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Speaker 3: me at eighteen. He's like, but you get experienced taking

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Speaker 3: the tests of them. When you're old enough, they will

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Speaker 3: hire you. You know, you'll know what to expect. Well, it

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Speaker 3: turns out I scored the high score on that test.

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Speaker 3: I mean the next closest guy behind me was ten

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Speaker 3: points down. And not that I'm an overly smart guy.

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Speaker 3: I was just you know, I was used to studying.

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Speaker 3: I could take a test, and it ended up at

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Speaker 3: the city that I went to work for in southern

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Speaker 3: West Virginia hired me one month after I turned eighteen

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Speaker 3: years old. I couldn't buy alcohol, I couldn't buy cigarettes,

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Speaker 3: I couldn't buy a gun. I couldn't break by bullets.

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Speaker 3: But I could carry a gun and I could use it.

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Speaker 3: If I determined that was trying to save a life.

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Speaker 1: That very right, dirty is And I do recall in

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Speaker 1: your books saying that you still have a reaction if

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Speaker 1: you go past the flooring store or that from what

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Speaker 1: your life could have been. Not that there's anything wrong

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Speaker 1: with that life, but you discovered discovered policing and the

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Speaker 1: world that that had to offer your first in You've

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Speaker 1: been across to Australia a few times, and our set

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Speaker 1: up with law enforcement. We have federal police and then

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Speaker 1: we have state police. But with your first police force

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Speaker 1: or the section that you worked in, what was there

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Speaker 1: thirty cops or thirty right? Sorry, I thought it was small,

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Speaker 1: thirty five. That's a big beginning. Tell us about that.

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Speaker 1: And you even had to buy your own gun, because

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Speaker 1: it's hard for us to comprehend over here in Australia

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Speaker 1: that that's the way that law enforcement is done over

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Speaker 1: in the US.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and I'm not sure sure that it is nowadays,

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Speaker 3: but this was back in nineteen seventy five. They provided

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Speaker 3: your uniform, and they would buy your shoes and things

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Speaker 3: like that, but you had to provide your own weapon,

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Speaker 3: and you're on your gun belt and your you know,

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Speaker 3: for your handcuffs and all that stuff. And so one

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Speaker 3: of the police officers that i'd befriended when I was

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Speaker 3: I'd actually done a college internship with the city police department,

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Speaker 3: so they all knew me already, and one of the officers,

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Speaker 3: I gave him the money. He bought me my first gun,

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Speaker 3: and my dad bought my bullets for me.

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Speaker 1: It's hard, it's just it's so funny. Now it's hard

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Speaker 1: to comprehend. Okay, well you got your gun, you got

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Speaker 1: your bullets. How did you find those is because you

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Speaker 1: moved around a bit. How long did you stay and

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Speaker 1: was it blue Bluefield?

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Speaker 3: Uh place in West Virginia?

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Speaker 2: How long were you there for?

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Speaker 4: Yes, sir, six years.

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Speaker 3: Six years and working uniform, not making very much money.

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Speaker 3: I you know, worked as much overtime as I could.

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Speaker 3: I was working off duty jobs. The college I went to,

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Speaker 3: I actually had a little business and security business, and

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Speaker 3: so I got the sports contract for the college for

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Speaker 3: basketball games and baseball and football. I don't know if

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Speaker 3: you know what Amway is, but even sold Amway.

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Speaker 1: To know what Amway. And I'm not buying off you. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I don't care what you say, Steve. I respect you,

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Speaker 1: but no, we're not going down that path.

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Speaker 2: I've got.

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Speaker 1: No sorry, I'm traumatized. I had a mate that said,

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Speaker 1: I want to catch up, Well what about And it

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Speaker 1: was doing an Amway pitch years ago, so yeah, I

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Speaker 1: do know about it.

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Speaker 3: Oh yeah, And there was even a one of the

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Speaker 3: local firemen was an electrician when he was off duty,

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Speaker 3: so I worked for him as an electricians helper. So

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Speaker 3: I mean, you did just do with you had to

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Speaker 3: do to pay the bills.

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Speaker 1: You know, now, I understand. Then you moved to another area.

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Speaker 1: What was that the north Transit transit policing all of

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Speaker 1: the railways.

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Speaker 3: Well, there was not Transit police but Norfolk and West

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Speaker 3: Back then it was Northfolk and Western Railroad. It's now

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Speaker 3: the Norfolk Southern Railroad.

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: Became a detective with them, moved down to Norfolk, Virginia.

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Speaker 3: It was quite honestly, it was like a glorified security

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Speaker 3: guard the job they had me doing, and I hated it.

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Speaker 3: He was boring. I mean, it's just terrible. And transferred

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Speaker 3: back to West Virginia. After two years as a railroad cop.

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Speaker 3: Gotten involved in a couple of shootings there, mostly backing

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Speaker 3: up other law enforcement agencies. And the chief I had

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Speaker 3: at the time had never been a real cop. He'd

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Speaker 3: always been a railroad cop. And I'm not taking anything

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Speaker 3: away from railroad cops. I know some really fantastic investigators,

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Speaker 3: but he really got upset when I helped the city

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Speaker 3: where this is the city department I used to work for,

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Speaker 3: so I know all the cops there. A rookie You've

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Speaker 3: got in a shooting one night, so I went and

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Speaker 3: backed him up. And uh a man was laying shot

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Speaker 3: on the sidewalk and I had to go grab him

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Speaker 3: and drag him in a recessed doorway and we had,

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Speaker 3: you know, had a stand off there for a couple hours,

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Speaker 3: and the guy finally surrendered. The shooter did, but my

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Speaker 3: boss came in. I called my boss the next morning

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Speaker 3: and told him what happened, and uh so he came in,

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Speaker 3: and man, he was mad at me. He was He

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Speaker 3: said that had nothing to do with railroad business, you know,

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Speaker 3: And I mean he's chewing me out. So I told him,

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Speaker 3: I said, chief, I'm the only railroad cop on duty

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Speaker 3: for twenty six counties, which is an extremely large geographical area.

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Speaker 3: Where do you think I go when I need help?

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Speaker 3: So you know, when these guys need help, I'm going

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Speaker 3: to be there for him if I can get to him.

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Speaker 3: So he threatened to get me fired, and and uh,

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Speaker 3: you know, just motivated me to go find something else

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Speaker 3: to do, because that's I don't I'm not going to

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Speaker 3: work for somebody like that.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I think it's a pathway working.

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Speaker 1: And when I say working like genuine cops that they're

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Speaker 1: going to clash with bosses like that, that really you

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Speaker 1: wonder what they're in the job for when they don't

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Speaker 1: understand what the role of a copy is. So I

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Speaker 1: recall that in your book, and I thought, yeah, I

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Speaker 1: can just picture the type of ship you would have

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Speaker 1: got into and just shake your head, and yeah, it's

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Speaker 1: frustrating you this.

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Speaker 4: I'll give you another example. This guy.

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Speaker 3: We had somebody broke into one of the railroad buildings

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Speaker 3: at a remote site and they'd thrown a rock through

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Speaker 3: the window. So I went and investigated, and you know,

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Speaker 3: couldn't find my fingerprints and they didn't get very much.

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Speaker 3: And so I came back and told him what I

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Speaker 3: was preparing my reports. So where's the rock? So's it's

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Speaker 3: in parking lot over there. I threw it back on

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Speaker 3: you're going to in the draveway, Well, did your fingerprint it?

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Speaker 3: Say it's the rock. It's porous, it won't absorb the

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Speaker 3: oils on your fingers that you can fingerprint and lift

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Speaker 3: the That's how unexperienced.

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Speaker 2: I read, Steve.

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Speaker 1: I always think there's a stream for them if they

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Speaker 1: want to go through in the management level. But I

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Speaker 1: always clashed with ones that yeah, it was obviously career

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Speaker 1: was management. I was an operational police officer. I respect

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Speaker 1: the work you do as a manager. Please respect the

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Speaker 1: work I do as an operational police officer. But it's worldwide,

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Speaker 1: isn't I can talk to a cop from anywhere and

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Speaker 1: everyone's got the same type of story that the same experience.

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Speaker 1: So okay, from absolutely from those experiences, you're thinking, DA,

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Speaker 1: you wanted to go to the DA. What's the process

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Speaker 1: to get into the DA?

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Speaker 3: Well it Honestly, I had never heard of DEA. I

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Speaker 3: didn't know what it was. And one of my fellow

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Speaker 3: railroad police officers had been a Virginia State trooper that

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Speaker 3: worked with DEA on a task force, and so he

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Speaker 3: would tell me stories. And I was always interested in

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Speaker 3: archatic's cases as a uniform carp so I got to

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Speaker 3: looking at it. I had to finish up my college degree.

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Speaker 3: I still had a few classes to take, so I

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Speaker 3: did that apply in nineteen eighty five. Took two years

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Speaker 3: before I finally got hired. And you know, through the

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Speaker 3: background investigation and the interviews that you go through and

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Speaker 3: all the things that you have to go through. So

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Speaker 3: finally got hired and had just moved back to Norfolk, Virginia.

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Speaker 3: Was like my first week there was living in a

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Speaker 3: motel room because I didn't have an apartment yet. And

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Speaker 3: they called and they said they called me on a

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Speaker 3: like a Wednesday, and they said, hey, we've got an

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Speaker 3: opening a class starting Monday.

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Speaker 4: Can you be here?

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Speaker 3: And I said absolutely, So I went from there, I

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Speaker 3: went to the main office. My boss there in Norfolk

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Speaker 3: was a guy that used to be a police officer

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Speaker 3: with me, so I know him very well. And they

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00:17:42,200 --> 00:17:44,359
Speaker 3: all knew I was applying to DEA. So he, you know,

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Speaker 3: I said, listen, I've got two weeks leave coming. I'm

365
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Speaker 3: going to turn my notice in today. And he's like,

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Speaker 3: I understand completely, Murph, we hate to lose you, but

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Speaker 3: you know, do what you got to do. So that

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Speaker 3: night I packed up. The next day, Thursday, I drove home.

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Speaker 3: My wife was still living in West Virginia at the time.

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Speaker 3: You hadn't even moved down yet, and uh got everything ready,

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Speaker 3: and Sunday I drove to the da Academy in Quantica,

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Speaker 3: Virginia and started my adventure there.

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Speaker 1: Okay, how just to explain to people. I understand what

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Speaker 1: DEI is, but explain to people what the role of

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Speaker 1: the DEA is.

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Speaker 3: What said, Chada, you know this is interesting if you know,

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Speaker 3: I'm not sure you probably know a lot about our

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Speaker 3: government here because it's crazy things going on.

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Speaker 1: Right, Yeah, a little bit in the news every recent times.

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Speaker 1: It's like watching reality TV. But anyway, oh my.

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Speaker 3: Gosh, this is going to be the strangest four years

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Speaker 3: I think any of us living. It's in de A

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Speaker 3: most law enforce or I'm sorry, in federal law enforcement

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Speaker 3: here in the United States. We have several different agencies

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Speaker 3: and the only single mission agencies are the Internal Revenue Service,

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Speaker 3: which are the tax collectors, and the Drug Enforcement Administration.

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Speaker 3: Our single mission is to enforce the US Code Control

388
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Speaker 3: Substances Act, and how that also carries over into money laundering.

389
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Speaker 3: But you know, you've got to have an attorney to

390
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Speaker 3: prosecute those cases, and they kind of go hand in hand,

391
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Speaker 3: and you know, and you work in a task force environment,

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Speaker 3: so you sometimes you have an IRS agent working with you.

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Speaker 4: But that's what we do.

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Speaker 3: We we we don't go after the users. We're not

395
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Speaker 3: after street level dealers. We're after the largest dealers in

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Speaker 3: the world that are having a negative impact on our country.

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Speaker 3: So if you look at DEA's footprint, we only have

398
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Speaker 3: if we have a full complement of agents. That's only

399
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Speaker 3: forty six hundred agents. I think right now DEA is

400
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Speaker 3: down about a thousand agents.

401
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Speaker 4: But in the foreign.

402
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Speaker 3: Arena, the DEA has the largest footprint outside of the

403
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Speaker 3: United States of any federal law enforcement agency here in

404
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Speaker 3: the United States, including the FBI. I think there's it's

405
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Speaker 3: something like ninety one offices in seventy eight countries or

406
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Speaker 3: something like that. But what that does is, like, you know,

407
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Speaker 3: we've got right there in Australia, we now have an

408
00:20:01,440 --> 00:20:03,600
Speaker 3: office down in New Zealand. Of course, we had one

409
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Speaker 3: in Bogata and the baron Keia down you know when

410
00:20:06,160 --> 00:20:09,560
Speaker 3: I went down there back in the late eighties early nineties.

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Speaker 3: I'm sorry, but it's you know, we come to Australia,

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Speaker 3: we have no jurisdiction, so we it's it's an agreement

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Speaker 3: between countries to work together and we open up access

414
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Speaker 3: to information. We have working hand in hand with say

415
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Speaker 3: the Australian Federal Police or you know, whatever police agency

416
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Speaker 3: it is. I remember you used to have the Australian

417
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Speaker 3: Crime Commission, the acc over there. We had we'd partnered

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Speaker 3: with them for a while and you share intelligence and

419
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Speaker 3: then as the information say, information is coming out of

420
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Speaker 3: Australia that will pack impact other countries where we have

421
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Speaker 3: a presence, or more specifically the United States. Then we

422
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Speaker 3: send that intelligence to our investigators and what we're trying

423
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Speaker 3: to do is make prosecutable cases. And so if if

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Speaker 3: an Aussie is is a drug dealer sending cocaine, for example,

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Speaker 3: to the United States, well we want to we want

426
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Speaker 3: to build a case on him so we can get

427
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Speaker 3: extra dive to the United States and put his button jail.

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Speaker 4: That's there. In a nutshell, that's what de EA is.

429
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Speaker 1: How did you find the fund the training that I

430
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Speaker 1: would imagine giving the fact that you had a background

431
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Speaker 1: in law enforcement, it wasn't a complete shock. You weren't

432
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Speaker 1: coming in as a rural rookie.

433
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Speaker 2: Had it. How did you find the training.

434
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Speaker 3: For the day it was I'm not going to say

435
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Speaker 3: it was easy. You know, the PT was every day

436
00:21:32,320 --> 00:21:35,639
Speaker 3: if and if if every day you're either on the

437
00:21:35,720 --> 00:21:38,520
Speaker 3: range on the firing range shooting or then on the

438
00:21:38,520 --> 00:21:41,119
Speaker 3: opposite day as you're you're doing two to three hours

439
00:21:41,119 --> 00:21:44,520
Speaker 3: of PT training and that that's you know, they're always

440
00:21:44,560 --> 00:21:46,399
Speaker 3: gonna throw at least a five mile run on you

441
00:21:46,640 --> 00:21:48,720
Speaker 3: just to screw with you. To be honest with you,

442
00:21:48,760 --> 00:21:52,359
Speaker 3: but it gets into shape and it was very regimented,

443
00:21:52,520 --> 00:21:58,920
Speaker 3: so very paramilitary. I'll give you an example. Before I

444
00:21:59,000 --> 00:22:02,600
Speaker 3: joined DA, especially with the Railroad, I shot competition, so

445
00:22:02,800 --> 00:22:05,520
Speaker 3: I was a pretty good shot with a pistol, and

446
00:22:05,920 --> 00:22:07,040
Speaker 3: I was a very good shot. I was on the

447
00:22:07,080 --> 00:22:08,960
Speaker 3: Railroad pistol team and we traveled all over the United

448
00:22:08,960 --> 00:22:12,399
Speaker 3: States and competition. So your first time on the range

449
00:22:12,440 --> 00:22:15,400
Speaker 3: with DEA, they treat everybody as if you've never seen

450
00:22:15,440 --> 00:22:17,399
Speaker 3: a gun. You know, they'll hold a gun up to

451
00:22:17,440 --> 00:22:19,320
Speaker 3: say the bullet comes out here, don't ever point that

452
00:22:19,400 --> 00:22:21,919
Speaker 3: at yourself. Yeah, I mean, just really basic, you know.

453
00:22:22,520 --> 00:22:24,679
Speaker 3: So we get on the five yard line with paper

454
00:22:24,720 --> 00:22:26,359
Speaker 3: targets in front of you, and they said, and we

455
00:22:26,400 --> 00:22:30,080
Speaker 3: had revolvers back then, not the semi automatics, and they said, okay,

456
00:22:30,400 --> 00:22:33,760
Speaker 3: fire six rounds, slow fire that no need to rush

457
00:22:34,119 --> 00:22:35,680
Speaker 3: and try to hit that piece of paper in front

458
00:22:35,680 --> 00:22:36,560
Speaker 3: of it five yards.

459
00:22:36,880 --> 00:22:39,960
Speaker 2: Pretty well, it's five yards I had.

460
00:22:42,320 --> 00:22:43,160
Speaker 4: Said that way.

461
00:22:43,200 --> 00:22:45,480
Speaker 3: It was bigger than it was, bigger than a bullet hold.

462
00:22:45,480 --> 00:22:48,520
Speaker 3: But they're still they all touched. And so the instructor

463
00:22:48,560 --> 00:22:50,680
Speaker 3: comes over and he says, you see that right there,

464
00:22:50,720 --> 00:22:52,720
Speaker 3: And I said, yes, sir, and he said, if I

465
00:22:52,760 --> 00:22:55,280
Speaker 3: was scoring this year, get credit for one round. And

466
00:22:55,359 --> 00:22:58,159
Speaker 3: I started laughing. He said, what's funny? You got to

467
00:22:58,200 --> 00:23:01,920
Speaker 3: be kidnewed, you know, explained to him, I've been shooting competition,

468
00:23:02,359 --> 00:23:06,000
Speaker 3: you know, and he said, well, I'm telling you. You said,

469
00:23:06,119 --> 00:23:07,760
Speaker 3: if I can't count the hole, you don't get credit.

470
00:23:08,400 --> 00:23:10,760
Speaker 3: So as we progressed, then you know, they'd say, okay,

471
00:23:10,760 --> 00:23:12,920
Speaker 3: this time, we want you to fire six rounds, reload,

472
00:23:12,960 --> 00:23:15,680
Speaker 3: fire six more rounds. So I put a few rounds here,

473
00:23:15,720 --> 00:23:17,440
Speaker 3: a few rounds here, a few rounds here, a few

474
00:23:17,520 --> 00:23:19,359
Speaker 3: rounds here, and then some rounds right in the middle.

475
00:23:19,880 --> 00:23:21,240
Speaker 3: And then he comes back and he's like, oh, you're

476
00:23:21,240 --> 00:23:22,440
Speaker 3: real smart ass, aren't you.

477
00:23:23,880 --> 00:23:26,360
Speaker 2: I'm just doing what you told me, come on see.

478
00:23:26,480 --> 00:23:29,439
Speaker 4: And he didn't like that I was. He didn't like

479
00:23:29,480 --> 00:23:30,960
Speaker 4: it that I was challenging.

480
00:23:30,640 --> 00:23:34,000
Speaker 1: Dining upset the weapons instructor. You will probably have the

481
00:23:34,080 --> 00:23:35,600
Speaker 1: knock out push ups after that, for.

482
00:23:35,760 --> 00:23:37,040
Speaker 2: You've been a smart eye.

483
00:23:37,080 --> 00:23:41,399
Speaker 1: Ye that yeah, but that that would have served you will. Okay,

484
00:23:41,480 --> 00:23:44,800
Speaker 1: you get pro, you get pro, you your training? Way

485
00:23:44,880 --> 00:23:45,720
Speaker 1: do you get posted?

486
00:23:46,400 --> 00:23:46,560
Speaker 4: Well?

487
00:23:46,640 --> 00:23:48,520
Speaker 3: The first post I went to was Miami in nineteen

488
00:23:48,560 --> 00:23:53,400
Speaker 3: eighty seven, So that still the wild West down there,

489
00:23:53,480 --> 00:23:54,840
Speaker 3: that would have been a quiet place.

490
00:23:55,359 --> 00:23:56,800
Speaker 2: Miami eighty seven.

491
00:23:56,920 --> 00:24:01,080
Speaker 4: Oh it was a blast, I'll tell you what it was.

492
00:24:01,840 --> 00:24:04,119
Speaker 3: So when I joined EA, the most part of cocaine

493
00:24:04,160 --> 00:24:06,400
Speaker 3: I've ever seen it one time was two ounces.

494
00:24:06,119 --> 00:24:07,040
Speaker 4: Bagging about like this.

495
00:24:08,119 --> 00:24:10,240
Speaker 3: The first case I got to go on undercover, we

496
00:24:10,280 --> 00:24:12,200
Speaker 3: went down to the Turks and Coco sailings on a

497
00:24:12,600 --> 00:24:16,800
Speaker 3: seized fifty three foot yacht. We picked up four hundred

498
00:24:16,840 --> 00:24:19,560
Speaker 3: kilos of cocaine. So I went from two ounces to

499
00:24:19,600 --> 00:24:21,840
Speaker 3: eight hundred and eighty pounds of cocaine. And you know what, Gary,

500
00:24:21,880 --> 00:24:23,800
Speaker 3: I was addicted to cocaine at that point, just in

501
00:24:23,840 --> 00:24:24,680
Speaker 3: a different way.

502
00:24:24,920 --> 00:24:29,680
Speaker 2: Just love seizing it, not using it. Well exactly.

503
00:24:29,840 --> 00:24:33,080
Speaker 1: I'm glad Miami Vice was a documentary then the TV

504
00:24:33,280 --> 00:24:38,320
Speaker 1: series was it. Now I'll put I'll put you on

505
00:24:38,359 --> 00:24:40,800
Speaker 1: the spot because even over here in Australia, I think

506
00:24:40,840 --> 00:24:43,720
Speaker 1: Miami Vice had any influence on the way certain people

507
00:24:43,760 --> 00:24:46,800
Speaker 1: were dressing cops and yeah, ah, this is going to

508
00:24:46,800 --> 00:24:51,520
Speaker 1: be the life Miami there. Did you go there thinking

509
00:24:51,560 --> 00:24:53,280
Speaker 1: it was going to be you know, you're going to

510
00:24:53,320 --> 00:24:53,480
Speaker 1: be that?

511
00:24:53,600 --> 00:24:54,000
Speaker 4: What was it?

512
00:24:54,080 --> 00:24:54,880
Speaker 2: Sunny Crockett?

513
00:24:55,520 --> 00:24:59,400
Speaker 4: Absolutely, I used to have hair.

514
00:24:59,440 --> 00:25:01,439
Speaker 3: I don't have a whole I left now, but I

515
00:25:01,480 --> 00:25:03,840
Speaker 3: have the hair down to, you know, past my shoulders.

516
00:25:03,920 --> 00:25:06,480
Speaker 3: I never could bring myself to get a pierced here,

517
00:25:07,400 --> 00:25:09,520
Speaker 3: so my wife got me these little magnetic ear rings.

518
00:25:09,560 --> 00:25:11,199
Speaker 3: You know, you could put an earring on meet and

519
00:25:11,240 --> 00:25:13,640
Speaker 3: try to pretend to be, you know, bad guy.

520
00:25:14,640 --> 00:25:15,600
Speaker 4: But you know what I mean.

521
00:25:16,119 --> 00:25:18,040
Speaker 3: I knew I looked like a cop when I was young,

522
00:25:18,680 --> 00:25:21,040
Speaker 3: and people would still deal with me, They would still

523
00:25:21,040 --> 00:25:22,040
Speaker 3: work with you in the cover.

524
00:25:22,560 --> 00:25:24,720
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's funny that because I know a lot of

525
00:25:24,760 --> 00:25:27,800
Speaker 1: undercover blokes and sometimes the fact that you it's all

526
00:25:27,880 --> 00:25:31,280
Speaker 1: like almost hiding in plain sight that Blake couldn't be

527
00:25:31,320 --> 00:25:32,919
Speaker 1: a copy. He looks like a cop. He's not going

528
00:25:32,960 --> 00:25:34,919
Speaker 1: to be working undercover if he looks like that. So

529
00:25:35,359 --> 00:25:38,200
Speaker 1: I can understand how that played out. But look, we're

530
00:25:38,560 --> 00:25:43,360
Speaker 1: making light of you speeding around in fleshy cars and speedboats.

531
00:25:43,400 --> 00:25:44,760
Speaker 2: But that would have.

532
00:25:44,720 --> 00:25:48,320
Speaker 1: Been a pretty wild, dangerous place to be working in

533
00:25:48,359 --> 00:25:49,680
Speaker 1: the eighties in Miami.

534
00:25:49,920 --> 00:25:51,359
Speaker 4: It absolutely was. It was.

535
00:25:52,960 --> 00:25:56,600
Speaker 3: You'll understand when I say this, It was exciting. It

536
00:25:56,720 --> 00:25:59,400
Speaker 3: was nineteen eighty and aem we were doing a deal

537
00:25:59,440 --> 00:26:03,000
Speaker 3: for seventy kilos and a by bust operation. We had

538
00:26:03,040 --> 00:26:05,280
Speaker 3: an undercover and informant and they were going to be

539
00:26:05,359 --> 00:26:09,080
Speaker 3: the purchasers of the seventeen kilos. And we're in the

540
00:26:09,080 --> 00:26:13,080
Speaker 3: house and me, my partner, Kevin, and in the third agent.

541
00:26:13,119 --> 00:26:15,359
Speaker 3: We're the inside, arrest him and we've got backup teams

542
00:26:15,400 --> 00:26:19,040
Speaker 3: out dispersed throughout the neighborhood. And the two bad guys

543
00:26:19,040 --> 00:26:21,359
Speaker 3: show up and there's they're there to rip us off,

544
00:26:22,320 --> 00:26:25,520
Speaker 3: and so they you know, we hear the undercover agent

545
00:26:25,560 --> 00:26:27,479
Speaker 3: begging for his life out in the front room. We're

546
00:26:27,520 --> 00:26:30,800
Speaker 3: in the back bedroom. Long story short. I peecked down

547
00:26:30,800 --> 00:26:33,280
Speaker 3: the hallway, saw what was going on, stepped back in

548
00:26:33,320 --> 00:26:35,199
Speaker 3: the clause. They got the radio and told everybody you know,

549
00:26:35,240 --> 00:26:36,920
Speaker 3: get in here now, it's rip off. They've got Pete

550
00:26:36,960 --> 00:26:40,000
Speaker 3: on the floor. Pete was undercover agent. My partner Kevin

551
00:26:40,080 --> 00:26:42,240
Speaker 3: walked over to the door and as he's opening the

552
00:26:42,280 --> 00:26:45,080
Speaker 3: door to hear what's going on, the other bad guy

553
00:26:45,119 --> 00:26:46,800
Speaker 3: had his hand on the other side of that door.

554
00:26:46,840 --> 00:26:48,560
Speaker 3: So when they you know, they're the width of the

555
00:26:48,600 --> 00:26:51,399
Speaker 3: door apart. When they opened the door and Kevin Yille's

556
00:26:51,400 --> 00:26:54,240
Speaker 3: police and bad guys starts shooting, hits him twice, he

557
00:26:54,359 --> 00:26:56,720
Speaker 3: falls down if it comes back on me slams the

558
00:26:56,720 --> 00:27:00,479
Speaker 3: door shut, thank goodness, and bad guy came up shooting

559
00:27:00,480 --> 00:27:02,960
Speaker 3: through the door. And so then the third agent we

560
00:27:03,000 --> 00:27:05,600
Speaker 3: opened up on the door. Twenty three bullet holes in

561
00:27:05,640 --> 00:27:08,080
Speaker 3: that door on it was all over with. But as

562
00:27:08,119 --> 00:27:10,879
Speaker 3: they were making their escape, the informants stood up and

563
00:27:10,920 --> 00:27:13,880
Speaker 3: the second bad guy, as he was going out front door,

564
00:27:13,920 --> 00:27:15,879
Speaker 3: he turned around and fired three rounds back in the

565
00:27:16,119 --> 00:27:17,840
Speaker 3: in the house and hit the informant right in the

566
00:27:17,880 --> 00:27:21,399
Speaker 3: throat and he never made it to the hospital. So

567
00:27:22,119 --> 00:27:24,840
Speaker 3: it was you know, I know it sounds stupid to

568
00:27:24,840 --> 00:27:27,200
Speaker 3: say it like this, but it was just so exciting.

569
00:27:27,920 --> 00:27:29,840
Speaker 3: You know, it's scary but exciting.

570
00:27:30,359 --> 00:27:35,760
Speaker 1: Yeah, I understand that, Steve. You have like you you're

571
00:27:35,800 --> 00:27:38,160
Speaker 1: like a moth to the flame with the excitement when

572
00:27:38,200 --> 00:27:40,880
Speaker 1: you're when you're a cop, you're looking looking for the action.

573
00:27:41,480 --> 00:27:42,480
Speaker 2: Yeah you're not.

574
00:27:43,440 --> 00:27:46,320
Speaker 1: You're not shoying away from it. And I understand the adrenaline.

575
00:27:46,440 --> 00:27:48,919
Speaker 1: It comes at a price, but you get conditioned to it.

576
00:27:49,359 --> 00:27:52,400
Speaker 1: But you're saying you would have seen a fair bit

577
00:27:52,480 --> 00:27:55,920
Speaker 1: in your time there. How did that affect you? Did

578
00:27:55,960 --> 00:27:58,560
Speaker 1: you change as a person like you you join as

579
00:27:58,720 --> 00:28:00,640
Speaker 1: you were going to be a carpets for the rest

580
00:28:00,640 --> 00:28:05,080
Speaker 1: of your life and you're yeah, you I'm tidying. Yeah,

581
00:28:05,280 --> 00:28:06,240
Speaker 1: call in Miami.

582
00:28:06,680 --> 00:28:10,120
Speaker 3: Yeah. You know, going through high school and even college,

583
00:28:10,160 --> 00:28:14,639
Speaker 3: I was. I was not flamboyant. Uh, you know, probably

584
00:28:14,640 --> 00:28:18,440
Speaker 3: a little bit self conscious, not real shy, but a

585
00:28:18,480 --> 00:28:20,800
Speaker 3: little bit shy. You know, I'm not going to go

586
00:28:21,880 --> 00:28:23,200
Speaker 3: I'm not going to be the life of the party,

587
00:28:23,240 --> 00:28:24,920
Speaker 3: but I'll go have a good time at the party.

588
00:28:24,680 --> 00:28:25,200
Speaker 4: You know what I mean.

589
00:28:25,400 --> 00:28:25,880
Speaker 2: Yeah.

590
00:28:26,040 --> 00:28:27,480
Speaker 4: And and when you're on.

591
00:28:27,400 --> 00:28:30,800
Speaker 3: The street, especially in uniform, some of the situations you

592
00:28:30,880 --> 00:28:33,040
Speaker 3: go to, you know, people are looking for somebody to

593
00:28:33,080 --> 00:28:36,199
Speaker 3: take charge, and that's you. And you just when I

594
00:28:36,240 --> 00:28:38,560
Speaker 3: had a uniform on, I was, I was a different person.

595
00:28:38,600 --> 00:28:41,760
Speaker 3: I would I would control the situation. I tried to,

596
00:28:41,920 --> 00:28:43,600
Speaker 3: you know, it didn't always make the right decision, but

597
00:28:43,640 --> 00:28:48,120
Speaker 3: tried to and and uh followed orders. But people would

598
00:28:48,160 --> 00:28:51,160
Speaker 3: see you outside of uniform, and they would treat you

599
00:28:51,240 --> 00:28:53,160
Speaker 3: like if they recognized you. First of all, most time

600
00:28:53,160 --> 00:28:55,000
Speaker 3: they didn't recognize you if you were out of uniform.

601
00:28:55,320 --> 00:28:57,959
Speaker 3: These are people that you knew very well, and uh,

602
00:28:58,840 --> 00:29:02,320
Speaker 3: they would you know, whereas before I might tell them

603
00:29:02,320 --> 00:29:04,880
Speaker 3: this is what we're going to do now, I'd say, hey,

604
00:29:04,880 --> 00:29:06,600
Speaker 3: what do you guys want to do tonight? You know,

605
00:29:06,640 --> 00:29:09,720
Speaker 3: we're just trying to you know, trying to be the

606
00:29:09,720 --> 00:29:13,960
Speaker 3: same person. But I think it did change me. My

607
00:29:14,040 --> 00:29:16,160
Speaker 3: wife says that, you know, I should run from here

608
00:29:16,280 --> 00:29:18,040
Speaker 3: because I talk. I speak to everybody. I try to

609
00:29:18,040 --> 00:29:20,680
Speaker 3: speak to everybody. I try to say hello or kiss

610
00:29:20,720 --> 00:29:23,280
Speaker 3: my butt or whatever, you know, but I just try

611
00:29:23,320 --> 00:29:25,240
Speaker 3: to I try to be nice, to speak to everybody.

612
00:29:25,720 --> 00:29:29,040
Speaker 3: She thinks she gives me hard, she kiss me grounded,

613
00:29:29,120 --> 00:29:29,320
Speaker 3: you know.

614
00:29:31,600 --> 00:29:35,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, well we're going to talk about talk about Connie because.

615
00:29:35,720 --> 00:29:38,400
Speaker 2: She played, she shared, the shared.

616
00:29:38,160 --> 00:29:43,120
Speaker 1: The adventures in the things, which is quite quite un well,

617
00:29:43,560 --> 00:29:46,560
Speaker 1: when I say unusual, it's not often recognized. The pressure

618
00:29:46,600 --> 00:29:50,280
Speaker 1: on the partners. Yeah, and the people waiting at home

619
00:29:50,320 --> 00:29:53,520
Speaker 1: and being worried about what's going on when you're out there.

620
00:29:53,560 --> 00:29:56,800
Speaker 1: But okay, so I get a sense. I'm getting a

621
00:29:56,800 --> 00:29:58,880
Speaker 1: sense of the type of person person.

622
00:29:58,720 --> 00:29:59,760
Speaker 2: You are at this stage.

623
00:29:59,800 --> 00:30:04,880
Speaker 1: You, yeah, fairly typical childhood, had a bit of a

624
00:30:04,920 --> 00:30:07,760
Speaker 1: devil in you. But yeah, we've pointed in the right

625
00:30:07,800 --> 00:30:13,760
Speaker 1: direction most times. You've decided this policing is all right,

626
00:30:13,920 --> 00:30:16,760
Speaker 1: and you get it's like I think you get addicted

627
00:30:16,800 --> 00:30:19,920
Speaker 1: to the adrenaline, the excitement, the pressure, the intensity. I

628
00:30:20,000 --> 00:30:23,520
Speaker 1: understand that that chaos is the thing that you're looking for.

629
00:30:24,200 --> 00:30:27,000
Speaker 1: You've done your time at Miami, You've been involved in

630
00:30:27,720 --> 00:30:33,240
Speaker 1: some major stuff there. What inspired you to apply to

631
00:30:34,160 --> 00:30:35,840
Speaker 1: a posting in Columbia.

632
00:30:35,880 --> 00:30:38,600
Speaker 3: Well that's that's where Cannie comes out, because you know,

633
00:30:38,640 --> 00:30:41,800
Speaker 3: I can tell you she's a tough lady. We're coming

634
00:30:41,880 --> 00:30:44,800
Speaker 3: up on our forty first anniversary here in about a month.

635
00:30:45,720 --> 00:30:48,200
Speaker 3: She's given up her career over and over for me.

636
00:30:48,360 --> 00:30:51,920
Speaker 3: But we're down there in Miami. You know, she's excited

637
00:30:51,920 --> 00:30:54,360
Speaker 3: for me, for what we're doing. She's working in a hospital.

638
00:30:54,440 --> 00:30:58,080
Speaker 3: She's a registered nurse. She's working in a cardiac catheterization

639
00:30:58,280 --> 00:31:00,800
Speaker 3: unit where they you know, put those two up and

640
00:31:00,840 --> 00:31:03,120
Speaker 3: you're growing and it goes up into your heart. She

641
00:31:03,280 --> 00:31:05,920
Speaker 3: loves that kind of thing, the blood and guts, which

642
00:31:05,920 --> 00:31:09,160
Speaker 3: I think all has gross. But after we've been there

643
00:31:09,200 --> 00:31:10,720
Speaker 3: about three and a half years, she came to and

644
00:31:10,800 --> 00:31:13,040
Speaker 3: she said, you know, this has been a pretty exciting

645
00:31:13,080 --> 00:31:15,120
Speaker 3: life that. I mean. We're small town country people. We

646
00:31:15,200 --> 00:31:17,360
Speaker 3: end up in Fort We're living in Fort Lauderdale, working

647
00:31:17,360 --> 00:31:20,400
Speaker 3: in Miami and she said, what's the next most exciting

648
00:31:20,440 --> 00:31:22,960
Speaker 3: thing we can do. Well, I had already been working

649
00:31:23,000 --> 00:31:25,400
Speaker 3: some cases with our office in Baron Keya, Columbia, some

650
00:31:25,400 --> 00:31:29,240
Speaker 3: money cases, and I said, well, we could move to Colombia.

651
00:31:29,280 --> 00:31:31,719
Speaker 3: And you know, she kind of looked back at me

652
00:31:31,760 --> 00:31:33,520
Speaker 3: like I had three eyes, and.

653
00:31:33,480 --> 00:31:34,520
Speaker 4: She's like, are you serious?

654
00:31:34,560 --> 00:31:36,240
Speaker 3: And I said, yeah, you know, I mean it's something

655
00:31:36,240 --> 00:31:38,800
Speaker 3: to think about. You got to understand if you tell

656
00:31:38,800 --> 00:31:42,000
Speaker 3: Connie what to do, it's not going to happen. I mean,

657
00:31:42,040 --> 00:31:44,800
Speaker 3: she's her own woman, you know, which is what I

658
00:31:44,840 --> 00:31:47,720
Speaker 3: love about her. But so she just kind of walked

659
00:31:47,760 --> 00:31:49,800
Speaker 3: away and thought about it for a couple of weeks,

660
00:31:49,800 --> 00:31:51,320
Speaker 3: and she came back. She said, are you really serious

661
00:31:51,320 --> 00:31:53,760
Speaker 3: about going to Columbia And I said sure. She said,

662
00:31:53,760 --> 00:31:55,160
Speaker 3: well we're going to do it, Let's do it while

663
00:31:55,160 --> 00:31:59,840
Speaker 3: we're young. So I applied. We got selected for Baron Keiya,

664
00:32:01,280 --> 00:32:04,000
Speaker 3: but I had to go to language school. So a

665
00:32:04,000 --> 00:32:06,160
Speaker 3: couple of weeks later they rescinded that transfer because they

666
00:32:06,200 --> 00:32:09,600
Speaker 3: needed a Spanish speaking agent immediately. So a guy in

667
00:32:09,680 --> 00:32:12,880
Speaker 3: headquarters later on he called me, I don't know that.

668
00:32:12,920 --> 00:32:14,520
Speaker 3: I don't even remember the guy's name, and I didn't

669
00:32:14,560 --> 00:32:15,960
Speaker 3: know him back then, but he said, you know, you

670
00:32:16,040 --> 00:32:19,240
Speaker 3: just got screwed, right, So yeah, I kind of figured

671
00:32:19,240 --> 00:32:22,000
Speaker 3: that out. He said, we're getting ready to post three

672
00:32:22,080 --> 00:32:23,080
Speaker 3: jobs in Bogotype.

673
00:32:23,120 --> 00:32:23,880
Speaker 4: Do you want one of those?

674
00:32:23,880 --> 00:32:26,120
Speaker 3: And I said sure, And he said, okay, I'll do

675
00:32:26,200 --> 00:32:27,680
Speaker 3: everything I can to get you the job, and I

676
00:32:27,720 --> 00:32:31,200
Speaker 3: got it. So that's that's how it came about. I

677
00:32:31,560 --> 00:32:33,840
Speaker 3: want you to know right now, Gary that they never

678
00:32:33,920 --> 00:32:35,760
Speaker 3: hired me because I'm a real smart person.

679
00:32:37,640 --> 00:32:41,880
Speaker 1: I think let's not let's not tell people that too much, Steve,

680
00:32:41,880 --> 00:32:43,920
Speaker 1: because I think that's a secret of being a good cop.

681
00:32:44,000 --> 00:32:45,360
Speaker 2: You don't have to be that smart.

682
00:32:45,960 --> 00:32:50,720
Speaker 1: He's just well, we'll keep that one cat on the quiet.

683
00:32:51,080 --> 00:32:54,600
Speaker 1: I laughed the fact that, uh, and you know, putting

684
00:32:54,600 --> 00:32:57,520
Speaker 1: the book out there, and it's always confronting when you're

685
00:32:57,560 --> 00:32:59,920
Speaker 1: talking about your life. But I like the fact that

686
00:33:00,520 --> 00:33:03,040
Speaker 1: with Connie that hold that she owns a motor bike.

687
00:33:03,120 --> 00:33:05,880
Speaker 1: That's pretty cool. When you first got together and thought, okay,

688
00:33:06,120 --> 00:33:08,960
Speaker 1: she's a lady that likes adventure, and that certainly played

689
00:33:08,960 --> 00:33:11,360
Speaker 1: out so you read read read the script right.

690
00:33:11,760 --> 00:33:14,000
Speaker 4: Absolutely she was she wasn't a biker.

691
00:33:14,120 --> 00:33:15,800
Speaker 3: She wasn't a biker check or anything like that.

692
00:33:15,920 --> 00:33:21,000
Speaker 2: She just she was at clarify that.

693
00:33:22,160 --> 00:33:26,640
Speaker 1: Okay, so you get to get to your posting in Columbia.

694
00:33:26,680 --> 00:33:29,360
Speaker 1: What what was that experience like when you come in too,

695
00:33:29,560 --> 00:33:32,080
Speaker 1: coming to a country like that, you.

696
00:33:32,000 --> 00:33:33,880
Speaker 3: Know, the only Columbias I've ever met were the ones

697
00:33:33,920 --> 00:33:37,360
Speaker 3: I'd put in jail, and you just, you know, it's

698
00:33:37,400 --> 00:33:41,000
Speaker 3: wrong to stereotype any people that I stereotypes that whole

699
00:33:41,000 --> 00:33:44,040
Speaker 3: country and thought everybody here is a drug traffer, but

700
00:33:45,040 --> 00:33:47,000
Speaker 3: found out, you know, I was completely off based on that.

701
00:33:47,040 --> 00:33:48,960
Speaker 3: But that first week I was in the embassy is

702
00:33:49,000 --> 00:33:52,000
Speaker 3: the week that Pablos surrendered, So you know, that's when

703
00:33:52,040 --> 00:33:54,800
Speaker 3: he surrendered to his customer built prison, and I was

704
00:33:54,880 --> 00:33:56,720
Speaker 3: just meeting people. When you first get to the embassy

705
00:33:56,760 --> 00:33:57,920
Speaker 3: like that, you've got to go through a lot of

706
00:33:57,960 --> 00:34:01,200
Speaker 3: security things and get your building pass, and I mean,

707
00:34:01,200 --> 00:34:02,520
Speaker 3: you're just trying to get your feet on the ground.

708
00:34:02,560 --> 00:34:05,080
Speaker 3: And it's a city of eight and a half million people,

709
00:34:05,120 --> 00:34:06,800
Speaker 3: and you know the town I went to high school

710
00:34:06,800 --> 00:34:10,600
Speaker 3: and had nine thousand, So it's you know, you're learning

711
00:34:10,600 --> 00:34:12,759
Speaker 3: your way around, and so they give you a couple

712
00:34:12,800 --> 00:34:15,000
Speaker 3: of weeks to kind of figure everything out. But I

713
00:34:14,800 --> 00:34:17,600
Speaker 3: was I was already had already met Javier and he

714
00:34:17,640 --> 00:34:19,480
Speaker 3: had a partner named Gary Sheeron at the time, and

715
00:34:19,920 --> 00:34:21,319
Speaker 3: Gary and I kind of hit it off right off

716
00:34:21,360 --> 00:34:24,840
Speaker 3: the bat. When Pablos surrender, We're all watching it on

717
00:34:24,920 --> 00:34:27,839
Speaker 3: TV and I'm thinking, this is fantastic, man. I mean,

718
00:34:27,880 --> 00:34:31,520
Speaker 3: the world's biggest cocaine manufacturing distributor just went to jail.

719
00:34:31,840 --> 00:34:35,319
Speaker 3: And I'm looking around and everybody's disappointed and they're pissed off,

720
00:34:35,400 --> 00:34:38,239
Speaker 3: and I'm like, what's wrong with you guys? And they said,

721
00:34:38,280 --> 00:34:39,839
Speaker 3: you know what you just got here. You don't even

722
00:34:39,920 --> 00:34:41,520
Speaker 3: know what you're talking about yet. You don't know what

723
00:34:41,520 --> 00:34:44,280
Speaker 3: we've been through here and what the Columbia National Police

724
00:34:44,320 --> 00:34:46,200
Speaker 3: have been through and what the Columbian citizens have been

725
00:34:46,239 --> 00:34:48,759
Speaker 3: through because of Pablo Escobar. You know, you need to

726
00:34:48,840 --> 00:34:51,400
Speaker 3: keep your mouth shut and learn and that you know

727
00:34:51,520 --> 00:34:55,439
Speaker 3: you do. They were exactly right. Yeah, So I ended

728
00:34:55,480 --> 00:34:58,560
Speaker 3: up partnering with Javier. Gary got promoted and transferred up

729
00:34:58,560 --> 00:35:00,320
Speaker 3: to baron Kia. So that's when Hobby and Are became

730
00:35:00,320 --> 00:35:04,120
Speaker 3: full time partners. And for that first year that's exactly

731
00:35:04,120 --> 00:35:05,880
Speaker 3: what I did. I went through case files, I went

732
00:35:05,920 --> 00:35:08,840
Speaker 3: with Hoabyard to meet the Columbia National Police. We were

733
00:35:09,000 --> 00:35:11,520
Speaker 3: supporting their wiretap rooms, all that kind of stuff, all

734
00:35:11,560 --> 00:35:14,800
Speaker 3: the investigative things that they were doing. But I learned,

735
00:35:15,160 --> 00:35:17,360
Speaker 3: and that was the best thing that could have happened,

736
00:35:17,360 --> 00:35:19,320
Speaker 3: because a year later we know what happened.

737
00:35:19,719 --> 00:35:23,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, when he got out of prison. Let's one that

738
00:35:23,120 --> 00:35:27,200
Speaker 1: back a bit talk about Escaba. What was his backstory

739
00:35:27,239 --> 00:35:28,960
Speaker 1: and how did he get to that point where he

740
00:35:29,000 --> 00:35:29,839
Speaker 1: gave himself up?

741
00:35:30,120 --> 00:35:30,680
Speaker 4: You got it?

742
00:35:31,120 --> 00:35:33,759
Speaker 3: So, Pablu his mom was a school Teacher's dad was

743
00:35:34,200 --> 00:35:38,600
Speaker 3: a dirt farmer. Basically, very poor household, not a lot

744
00:35:38,640 --> 00:35:42,600
Speaker 3: of income. As he grew up and as a teenager,

745
00:35:42,640 --> 00:35:45,960
Speaker 3: he started stealing hub caps off of cars and he

746
00:35:46,000 --> 00:35:47,719
Speaker 3: would go in and his buddy would go into the

747
00:35:47,719 --> 00:35:50,440
Speaker 3: graveyards and they'd steal headstones and send them down and

748
00:35:50,480 --> 00:35:53,399
Speaker 3: resell them. I mean, just you know, really upstanding kind

749
00:35:53,400 --> 00:35:53,879
Speaker 3: of guy.

750
00:35:53,960 --> 00:35:54,120
Speaker 4: Right.

751
00:35:55,080 --> 00:35:56,319
Speaker 2: It says something, doesn't it.

752
00:35:56,840 --> 00:35:59,360
Speaker 3: Yeah, And then he got involved with a guy named Ristreppo.

753
00:36:00,040 --> 00:36:04,000
Speaker 3: Strepper was a cocaine deli, a small time and he

754
00:36:04,080 --> 00:36:06,279
Speaker 3: needed I guess he needed some muscle or somebody to

755
00:36:06,320 --> 00:36:08,840
Speaker 3: participate in a deal. And Pablo agreed to do it

756
00:36:08,880 --> 00:36:11,480
Speaker 3: for money, and he saw how easy it was to

757
00:36:11,480 --> 00:36:14,279
Speaker 3: do it, so he went and killed Bristreppo and took

758
00:36:14,280 --> 00:36:17,359
Speaker 3: his place. So this is I'm going to guess that

759
00:36:17,400 --> 00:36:20,480
Speaker 3: Pablo was probably in his early twenties at this point.

760
00:36:21,440 --> 00:36:25,160
Speaker 3: And I really hate to give this guy credit for anything,

761
00:36:25,280 --> 00:36:30,040
Speaker 3: but he did have somewhat of a charismatic personality and

762
00:36:30,239 --> 00:36:34,760
Speaker 3: he could logically think things through on how to expand

763
00:36:34,960 --> 00:36:36,920
Speaker 3: his illegal activities, if that makes sense.

764
00:36:37,920 --> 00:36:39,319
Speaker 4: So and that's what he did.

765
00:36:39,520 --> 00:36:41,640
Speaker 3: So they were, you know, they were smuggling marijuana in

766
00:36:41,800 --> 00:36:44,040
Speaker 3: and then he found out about this cocaine, this thing

767
00:36:44,080 --> 00:36:47,000
Speaker 3: called cocaine, and he liked it, not that he liked

768
00:36:47,040 --> 00:36:49,400
Speaker 3: to use it, but he liked the idea because it

769
00:36:49,440 --> 00:36:55,600
Speaker 3: was so much smaller than bought marijuana. So he got

770
00:36:55,600 --> 00:36:59,200
Speaker 3: involved in that and they bought some kilos. They got

771
00:36:59,600 --> 00:37:01,960
Speaker 3: they bought kilo has already done cocaine, had to chloride,

772
00:37:01,960 --> 00:37:05,080
Speaker 3: which is the finished product. Sold, it made some money,

773
00:37:05,239 --> 00:37:06,960
Speaker 3: and then he thought, well, you know what, why don't

774
00:37:06,960 --> 00:37:09,920
Speaker 3: we produce our own. So they went around and he

775
00:37:09,920 --> 00:37:12,280
Speaker 3: already had smuggling routes set up coming out of Bolivi

776
00:37:12,360 --> 00:37:15,320
Speaker 3: in Peru where they were bringing in just basically mainly

777
00:37:15,400 --> 00:37:20,720
Speaker 3: black market type items like televisions, electronics, just about anything

778
00:37:20,760 --> 00:37:24,120
Speaker 3: to get your hands on. So they learned how to

779
00:37:24,120 --> 00:37:29,560
Speaker 3: make cocaine, started setting up their own jungle labs, just

780
00:37:29,600 --> 00:37:32,479
Speaker 3: started making a buttload of money. And he realized that,

781
00:37:33,840 --> 00:37:37,000
Speaker 3: you know, people in Colombia, it's a third Wold country.

782
00:37:37,160 --> 00:37:39,120
Speaker 3: I mean, it's beautiful. I love Columbia. I hate the

783
00:37:39,160 --> 00:37:41,480
Speaker 3: same thing bad about it, but it's the truth, and

784
00:37:41,520 --> 00:37:46,319
Speaker 3: it's an extremely violent country. Their history shows that. But

785
00:37:46,840 --> 00:37:48,840
Speaker 3: he thought, I'm not going to sell this to Colombia's

786
00:37:48,840 --> 00:37:50,680
Speaker 3: I want to sell this to the Gringoes because they

787
00:37:50,840 --> 00:37:52,799
Speaker 3: you know, that's the rnchiest country in the world, and

788
00:37:52,880 --> 00:37:54,880
Speaker 3: you know they're idiots up there, and they'll spend money

789
00:37:54,880 --> 00:37:55,800
Speaker 3: on this kind of stuff.

790
00:37:56,000 --> 00:37:57,040
Speaker 4: And man, he was right.

791
00:37:58,080 --> 00:38:03,040
Speaker 3: So his we did an analysis later on it roughly

792
00:38:03,080 --> 00:38:05,440
Speaker 3: it would cost him about one thousand dollars to produce

793
00:38:05,560 --> 00:38:10,040
Speaker 3: one kilo cocaine the finished product. Transportation fees are going

794
00:38:10,080 --> 00:38:12,480
Speaker 3: to cost you maybe three to four thousand dollars, so

795
00:38:12,640 --> 00:38:15,400
Speaker 3: roughly five thousand dollars per kilo to get it to

796
00:38:15,480 --> 00:38:18,680
Speaker 3: the United States. Well back in the eighties, those were

797
00:38:18,680 --> 00:38:21,080
Speaker 3: going for his high as sixty or eighty thousand dollars

798
00:38:21,120 --> 00:38:24,799
Speaker 3: for one kilo. Pig profits, so your returnal investment. Oh

799
00:38:24,920 --> 00:38:27,200
Speaker 3: my gosh, I mean, and you can see the and

800
00:38:27,200 --> 00:38:30,239
Speaker 3: now you see how the money just kind of took

801
00:38:30,280 --> 00:38:32,440
Speaker 3: over his mentality and it was all about him from

802
00:38:32,440 --> 00:38:32,920
Speaker 3: that point on.

803
00:38:33,600 --> 00:38:37,480
Speaker 1: Okay, and as he built the cartel, like in the

804
00:38:37,520 --> 00:38:41,200
Speaker 1: cacarios that he would have working for him there, but

805
00:38:41,360 --> 00:38:44,600
Speaker 1: my sense of it, people would grew up in poverty

806
00:38:44,920 --> 00:38:47,319
Speaker 1: and we're just He's beck and call to do any

807
00:38:47,360 --> 00:38:50,400
Speaker 1: of these, any of these killings, murders or whatever he

808
00:38:50,480 --> 00:38:53,000
Speaker 1: wanted to do. Is that how it operated? Was there

809
00:38:53,000 --> 00:38:56,040
Speaker 1: a structure to it? How did he rise to the

810
00:38:56,080 --> 00:38:57,480
Speaker 1: top he was.

811
00:38:58,040 --> 00:38:59,920
Speaker 3: What brought him to the top is two things. One

812
00:39:00,239 --> 00:39:06,360
Speaker 3: his inability to have a conscience and not feel remorse.

813
00:39:06,400 --> 00:39:08,480
Speaker 3: You know that he was fine with murdering people. That's

814
00:39:08,520 --> 00:39:11,239
Speaker 3: what you had to do. The other was he brought

815
00:39:11,239 --> 00:39:15,720
Speaker 3: in his cousin, Gustavo Gaviria. Now Gustava, they're like their cousins,

816
00:39:15,719 --> 00:39:18,560
Speaker 3: but they're actually closer like brothers. They grew up together,

817
00:39:18,960 --> 00:39:22,319
Speaker 3: and Gustava was the brains behind the whole outfit. He

818
00:39:22,400 --> 00:39:26,160
Speaker 3: didn't have that mean streak that Pablo had, but he

819
00:39:26,239 --> 00:39:30,480
Speaker 3: also didn't shy away from it. So Pablo as people

820
00:39:30,480 --> 00:39:33,239
Speaker 3: would challenge him, he would kill him, and word got out.

821
00:39:33,440 --> 00:39:35,399
Speaker 3: You know, don't mess with Pablo, because they'll take you out.

822
00:39:36,239 --> 00:39:40,399
Speaker 3: He partnered up with Jose Gonzalo Rodriguez Scotcha, who's known

823
00:39:40,440 --> 00:39:45,640
Speaker 3: as Elmeicano, the Mexican who was Gotcha was every bit

824
00:39:45,760 --> 00:39:49,279
Speaker 3: as evil as Pablo Escobarn and some people will say

825
00:39:49,320 --> 00:39:52,560
Speaker 3: even more violent. At the time he got involved with

826
00:39:52,600 --> 00:39:55,320
Speaker 3: the Emerald Minds, he would go kill the owners of

827
00:39:55,360 --> 00:39:56,880
Speaker 3: the mines and then take ownership.

828
00:39:56,960 --> 00:39:58,440
Speaker 4: And you know, he had his.

829
00:39:58,400 --> 00:40:01,400
Speaker 3: Own thing going in court and to the cocaine production

830
00:40:01,520 --> 00:40:07,200
Speaker 3: and trafficking. And then Pablo realized that there's a lot

831
00:40:07,239 --> 00:40:10,920
Speaker 3: of different groups out there producing cocaine and it was competitive,

832
00:40:11,840 --> 00:40:13,640
Speaker 3: and he came up with this idea that hey, we're

833
00:40:13,680 --> 00:40:17,719
Speaker 3: all from Antiochia, which is the state where Medine is located,

834
00:40:18,360 --> 00:40:21,239
Speaker 3: and rather than you know, cutting each other's throats, why

835
00:40:21,239 --> 00:40:25,359
Speaker 3: don't we work together. We'll combine our loads. That way,

836
00:40:25,440 --> 00:40:27,879
Speaker 3: if we're sending five hundre kilos up, and let's say

837
00:40:28,080 --> 00:40:31,200
Speaker 3: Pablo's got a hundred, the Otrove brothers have one hundred,

838
00:40:31,400 --> 00:40:34,960
Speaker 3: Gonzalo Rodriguez Gotcha's got one hundred. A couple other people

839
00:40:35,040 --> 00:40:37,160
Speaker 3: have one hundred in there. If a load gets taken off,

840
00:40:37,160 --> 00:40:39,040
Speaker 3: we only lost one hundred kilos, you didn't lose five

841
00:40:39,120 --> 00:40:43,000
Speaker 3: hundred kilos. So you're kind of sharing. You're sharing the wealth,

842
00:40:43,000 --> 00:40:45,400
Speaker 3: but you're also sharing the pain. When the caizars do happen,

843
00:40:46,200 --> 00:40:49,600
Speaker 3: and everybody liked it. You know, Pablo was he knew

844
00:40:49,600 --> 00:40:53,520
Speaker 3: how to pay off government officials, whether they were police officers,

845
00:40:53,600 --> 00:40:56,719
Speaker 3: or they were senators or you know, did they pay

846
00:40:56,760 --> 00:41:00,000
Speaker 3: off the president. I don't know, but you know, certainly

847
00:41:00,200 --> 00:41:03,719
Speaker 3: was viable, the attorney general. There's a lot of suspect

848
00:41:03,760 --> 00:41:08,400
Speaker 3: things there. And eventually Pablo, in his own mind, became

849
00:41:08,440 --> 00:41:12,520
Speaker 3: so powerful that he thought everybody loved him. Well, the

850
00:41:12,520 --> 00:41:16,680
Speaker 3: only people loved him were the people that I mean, honestly,

851
00:41:16,719 --> 00:41:18,440
Speaker 3: it was the poor people.

852
00:41:19,480 --> 00:41:20,160
Speaker 4: He grew up poor.

853
00:41:20,320 --> 00:41:22,800
Speaker 3: He presented himself to be a man of the people

854
00:41:22,800 --> 00:41:24,360
Speaker 3: that he grew up like them, and he wanted to

855
00:41:24,360 --> 00:41:27,280
Speaker 3: help take care of them. He built clinics, he built

856
00:41:27,280 --> 00:41:29,480
Speaker 3: housing for people that lived on the edge of a

857
00:41:29,520 --> 00:41:32,759
Speaker 3: trash dump. He gave money away, he gave food away,

858
00:41:32,800 --> 00:41:35,160
Speaker 3: he built soccer fields and all those are good things.

859
00:41:35,800 --> 00:41:38,960
Speaker 3: But when he needed new sacarios because his old sagarios

860
00:41:38,960 --> 00:41:42,000
Speaker 3: are being killed. Where do you think he went to recruit?

861
00:41:43,080 --> 00:41:45,600
Speaker 1: So that was because that was it was almost like

862
00:41:45,680 --> 00:41:48,840
Speaker 1: he's ego. He wanted to wanted to be the gangster

863
00:41:49,000 --> 00:41:51,520
Speaker 1: and the money, but he also wanted to be loved

864
00:41:51,520 --> 00:41:52,120
Speaker 1: by the people.

865
00:41:52,120 --> 00:41:53,399
Speaker 2: He thought he was.

866
00:41:55,000 --> 00:41:58,000
Speaker 1: Representative of the people of Colombia, the pulled down, trodden

867
00:41:58,000 --> 00:41:59,719
Speaker 1: ones that are trying to make good.

868
00:42:00,080 --> 00:42:03,400
Speaker 3: He wanted to be president of Columbia. There was going

869
00:42:03,480 --> 00:42:07,719
Speaker 3: to be a congressional election, and so the leading candidate

870
00:42:08,000 --> 00:42:12,520
Speaker 3: in meddiing Pablo had befriended, and I'm sure befriended him

871
00:42:12,520 --> 00:42:17,120
Speaker 3: with some American cash, and so Pablo ran as an

872
00:42:17,160 --> 00:42:20,680
Speaker 3: alternate under that congressman. Well, so the congressman got elected,

873
00:42:21,080 --> 00:42:23,560
Speaker 3: you know, Pablo's funding his campaign and everything. And the

874
00:42:23,640 --> 00:42:26,560
Speaker 3: day that he got elected, he resigned for health reasons,

875
00:42:26,719 --> 00:42:29,840
Speaker 3: which bumped Pablo up to his position. Now he's a

876
00:42:30,000 --> 00:42:34,520
Speaker 3: duly elected congressman. Convenient, and so when congress session is

877
00:42:34,560 --> 00:42:38,359
Speaker 3: in session, congressman in Columbia cannot be arrested. Well, he

878
00:42:38,400 --> 00:42:41,359
Speaker 3: goes to Congress. The story about him not wearing a tie.

879
00:42:41,360 --> 00:42:43,000
Speaker 3: I supposedly that's true. I don't know if it was

880
00:42:43,120 --> 00:42:46,200
Speaker 3: or not. But this is before my time. But the

881
00:42:47,040 --> 00:42:51,880
Speaker 3: man the was he the attorney general or the Justice minister,

882
00:42:52,320 --> 00:42:57,200
Speaker 3: Rodrigo Laura Buonia. Anyway, he knew who Pablo was. He

883
00:42:57,239 --> 00:43:02,120
Speaker 3: knew he was a drug trafficker. If you remember, the

884
00:43:02,200 --> 00:43:06,040
Speaker 3: Gorilla group M nineteen one time had attacked the Palace

885
00:43:06,080 --> 00:43:08,400
Speaker 3: of Justice in Bogata rated it.

886
00:43:08,880 --> 00:43:12,160
Speaker 2: They were communists leaning yes.

887
00:43:12,320 --> 00:43:15,799
Speaker 3: Yeah, and so think when they killed a bunch of

888
00:43:15,840 --> 00:43:19,080
Speaker 3: the Columbia Supreme Court judges, there's some magistrates, there's people

889
00:43:19,120 --> 00:43:22,800
Speaker 3: that just disappeared, they were never found. But the evidence

890
00:43:22,880 --> 00:43:25,759
Speaker 3: room holding all the evidence against Pablo Escobar. Their goal

891
00:43:25,880 --> 00:43:28,719
Speaker 3: was to destroy that and they did pretty good job,

892
00:43:29,160 --> 00:43:34,319
Speaker 3: but not completely. So Rodrigo Lara Bania knew this. So

893
00:43:34,560 --> 00:43:38,480
Speaker 3: in open congress one day, he has that iconic photo

894
00:43:38,560 --> 00:43:41,400
Speaker 3: of Pablo as he's being arrested, holding his.

895
00:43:41,800 --> 00:43:43,640
Speaker 4: ID number and smiling.

896
00:43:43,920 --> 00:43:44,320
Speaker 2: Yeah.

897
00:43:44,760 --> 00:43:47,400
Speaker 3: So he has that blown up and he unveils that

898
00:43:47,480 --> 00:43:50,520
Speaker 3: in open congress and calls Pablo Escobar a drug trafficker,

899
00:43:50,560 --> 00:43:54,600
Speaker 3: which he's convicted criminal, which that nullifies him being a congressman.

900
00:43:55,480 --> 00:43:58,840
Speaker 3: So you know that that was extremely embarrassing for Pablo.

901
00:43:58,800 --> 00:44:02,640
Speaker 1: And that ended these ambitions to be a politician. And

902
00:44:03,160 --> 00:44:05,040
Speaker 1: aspire to be the president.

903
00:44:05,520 --> 00:44:08,399
Speaker 3: But the sad thing of that is about a week

904
00:44:08,480 --> 00:44:12,480
Speaker 3: or two later, Rodrigo Laura Bernia was assassinated.

905
00:44:12,040 --> 00:44:15,799
Speaker 1: Right, Okay, you don't have to guess where that order

906
00:44:15,880 --> 00:44:24,520
Speaker 1: came from. So he was in conflict with the government

907
00:44:24,560 --> 00:44:27,319
Speaker 1: at that point in time. You've got the sense that

908
00:44:27,360 --> 00:44:31,319
Speaker 1: I get is the government, the ones that weren't being

909
00:44:31,320 --> 00:44:36,160
Speaker 1: corrupted by him, were very much against him. And the

910
00:44:36,239 --> 00:44:39,480
Speaker 1: issue of extradition was that's played out in a lot

911
00:44:39,520 --> 00:44:42,719
Speaker 1: of well in the Nacos TV series and in some

912
00:44:42,760 --> 00:44:45,000
Speaker 1: of the books and documentaries. Was that very much the

913
00:44:45,080 --> 00:44:47,240
Speaker 1: issue that there was a lot of conflict about.

914
00:44:47,360 --> 00:44:51,320
Speaker 3: Absolutely. I mean, that's that's the leading issue right there.

915
00:44:51,920 --> 00:44:54,520
Speaker 3: He did not want Columbia nationals to be extradated to

916
00:44:54,560 --> 00:44:57,240
Speaker 3: the United States. And if you remember, he even created

917
00:44:57,280 --> 00:45:00,120
Speaker 3: a group called the Extra Datables, and they were to

918
00:45:00,160 --> 00:45:05,239
Speaker 3: create these flyers that they would drop out, you know,

919
00:45:05,280 --> 00:45:07,120
Speaker 3: they would fly over soccer games, have a plane fly

920
00:45:07,160 --> 00:45:10,080
Speaker 3: over and drop out these flyers and on these leaflets

921
00:45:10,080 --> 00:45:13,560
Speaker 3: that said the extraditibles, we prefer a tomb in Columbia

922
00:45:13,600 --> 00:45:16,880
Speaker 3: to a jail celle in the United States. So everybody

923
00:45:16,960 --> 00:45:21,800
Speaker 3: knew who it was that's Pablo. But when that happened

924
00:45:21,800 --> 00:45:24,960
Speaker 3: with Congress and they kicked him out, that's when he

925
00:45:25,040 --> 00:45:28,120
Speaker 3: really got violent. That's when he blew up the Avianca flight.

926
00:45:28,880 --> 00:45:32,800
Speaker 3: That's when he put a five hundred kilogram dynamite bomb

927
00:45:32,960 --> 00:45:35,640
Speaker 3: in front of the DOS headquarters, which was for us

928
00:45:35,680 --> 00:45:39,279
Speaker 3: would be like the combination of our intelligence agency and

929
00:45:39,320 --> 00:45:42,240
Speaker 3: the FBI blew them up, trying to kill the general

930
00:45:42,239 --> 00:45:47,040
Speaker 3: in charge to that. He killed the leading presidential candidate

931
00:45:47,400 --> 00:45:50,520
Speaker 3: at that time, a guy named Luis Carlos Kalan, who

932
00:45:50,680 --> 00:45:53,000
Speaker 3: had about a ninety percent approval rating. I mean, the

933
00:45:53,040 --> 00:45:56,480
Speaker 3: Columbians loved him and his platform is if elected, I'm

934
00:45:56,520 --> 00:46:01,319
Speaker 3: bringing back extradition. So Pablo had him assassinated. That's when

935
00:46:01,760 --> 00:46:04,760
Speaker 3: Oblo was so mad he declared war on his own country.

936
00:46:05,040 --> 00:46:06,439
Speaker 3: I mean openly declared war.

937
00:46:06,640 --> 00:46:10,319
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's the ruthlessness of it as well. Tell us

938
00:46:10,320 --> 00:46:13,000
Speaker 1: a little bit about the flight that was blown up,

939
00:46:13,040 --> 00:46:16,680
Speaker 1: because I got the sense that's when public opinions started

940
00:46:16,680 --> 00:46:19,680
Speaker 1: to sway against him, that you know, you've gone too far.

941
00:46:19,800 --> 00:46:22,680
Speaker 2: He what was the backstory to that?

942
00:46:23,280 --> 00:46:28,399
Speaker 3: Well, there Oblo had information that Luis Carlos Golan, or

943
00:46:28,560 --> 00:46:31,840
Speaker 3: the guy who took his place after his murder, says Argaviria.

944
00:46:31,880 --> 00:46:33,440
Speaker 3: I think that's who it was, was going to be

945
00:46:33,440 --> 00:46:37,400
Speaker 3: on a flight from Bogata to Cali. And so what

946
00:46:37,480 --> 00:46:40,239
Speaker 3: Pablo did is he one of his favorite Sakarios is

947
00:46:40,239 --> 00:46:44,320
Speaker 3: a guy named Dan Denny Munos Mosquera. Everybody calls him Lakika,

948
00:46:44,360 --> 00:46:46,640
Speaker 3: that was the street name. Lakika is actually here in

949
00:46:46,680 --> 00:46:49,000
Speaker 3: the United States doing life in prison for this bombing.

950
00:46:49,920 --> 00:46:54,600
Speaker 3: Solakika goes out and recruits a new member of the

951
00:46:54,680 --> 00:46:59,359
Speaker 3: Cikarios who's he's really an unwitting He doesn't know what's

952
00:46:59,400 --> 00:47:01,879
Speaker 3: really going on, and so Lakey could tell him. He says, listen,

953
00:47:01,920 --> 00:47:04,840
Speaker 3: here's a briefcase Pabla's. We're getting you a first class

954
00:47:04,840 --> 00:47:08,920
Speaker 3: ticket on this plane up to Kylie. The guy that

955
00:47:08,960 --> 00:47:11,240
Speaker 3: you're going to be sitting next to is an enemy

956
00:47:11,239 --> 00:47:13,520
Speaker 3: of Pablo. And once you get in the air, Pablo

957
00:47:13,560 --> 00:47:16,400
Speaker 3: wants you to just engage him in conversation and just

958
00:47:16,520 --> 00:47:17,880
Speaker 3: you know, try to bait him a little bit and

959
00:47:17,880 --> 00:47:19,799
Speaker 3: see what his opinion is on different things. And he said,

960
00:47:19,840 --> 00:47:22,879
Speaker 3: but once you're up in the air, pull this little

961
00:47:22,880 --> 00:47:25,839
Speaker 3: pin out of the outside of the briefcase, little hidden pen,

962
00:47:26,360 --> 00:47:29,880
Speaker 3: and that will activate the recording device inside. Guy says okay,

963
00:47:30,440 --> 00:47:32,200
Speaker 3: So he goes and gets on the plane, sits down,

964
00:47:32,239 --> 00:47:35,160
Speaker 3: the plane gets the altitude, he pulls the pin out

965
00:47:35,160 --> 00:47:38,080
Speaker 3: to start the recording, and that detonated the bomb. So

966
00:47:38,160 --> 00:47:41,240
Speaker 3: one hundred and seven people died on that flight, plus

967
00:47:41,320 --> 00:47:43,600
Speaker 3: three people on the ground that were killed, So one

968
00:47:43,640 --> 00:47:47,200
Speaker 3: hundred and ten people died because Pablo wanted to kill

969
00:47:47,520 --> 00:47:50,640
Speaker 3: Sayes of Gaviria, the next presidential candidate that he thought

970
00:47:50,640 --> 00:47:54,120
Speaker 3: would win. And at the last minute something came up

971
00:47:54,239 --> 00:47:58,560
Speaker 3: and Gavia didn't even get on the flight. Now, there

972
00:47:58,560 --> 00:48:01,440
Speaker 3: were supposed to be two deea on that flight and

973
00:48:01,680 --> 00:48:05,040
Speaker 3: you know, whatever reason, and the embassy, the boss came

974
00:48:05,080 --> 00:48:07,480
Speaker 3: out says, nineted you guys or something else. We had

975
00:48:07,480 --> 00:48:09,239
Speaker 3: no information that there was going to be a bomb

976
00:48:09,239 --> 00:48:11,960
Speaker 3: on that flate. Just by the grace of guard, those

977
00:48:12,000 --> 00:48:14,520
Speaker 3: guys didn't get on the plane. But who was on

978
00:48:14,560 --> 00:48:17,960
Speaker 3: the plane was two American citizens. So that's what gave

979
00:48:18,000 --> 00:48:20,880
Speaker 3: me then States jurisdiction to go after Lakika and Pablo

980
00:48:21,000 --> 00:48:21,239
Speaker 3: for that.

981
00:48:21,239 --> 00:48:26,960
Speaker 1: Baring okay, and that's well, it's say when he crossed

982
00:48:26,960 --> 00:48:28,480
Speaker 1: the line, He's crossed the line a lot.

983
00:48:28,520 --> 00:48:29,800
Speaker 2: But I think people.

984
00:48:29,600 --> 00:48:32,360
Speaker 1: Will look at that, how ruthless. It just says so

985
00:48:32,520 --> 00:48:36,040
Speaker 1: much about the person so on that there was this

986
00:48:36,880 --> 00:48:40,160
Speaker 1: very big effort to bring him to justice, but it

987
00:48:40,239 --> 00:48:43,200
Speaker 1: wasn't working. But they negotiated him. And what we started

988
00:48:43,200 --> 00:48:46,719
Speaker 1: talking about was when he gave up, gave himself up,

989
00:48:46,760 --> 00:48:47,640
Speaker 1: handing himself in.

990
00:48:48,320 --> 00:48:49,040
Speaker 2: Can you tell us.

991
00:48:49,000 --> 00:48:52,560
Speaker 1: About that, because it's bizarre you look at it from

992
00:48:53,040 --> 00:48:57,040
Speaker 1: our situation in the United States or Australia. How did

993
00:48:57,040 --> 00:48:59,640
Speaker 1: this play out? Just explain it because I find it

994
00:48:59,680 --> 00:49:00,920
Speaker 1: fascin it is.

995
00:49:00,960 --> 00:49:04,040
Speaker 3: It's the worst plead deal you will ever hear in

996
00:49:04,080 --> 00:49:07,520
Speaker 3: your life. I mean, it was embarrassing to the Columbian government.

997
00:49:08,200 --> 00:49:12,200
Speaker 3: But so the attorney general in Columbia, like here in

998
00:49:12,239 --> 00:49:14,800
Speaker 3: the United States, are presidents elected and then he appoints

999
00:49:14,880 --> 00:49:18,279
Speaker 3: the Attorney General to the United States. In Columbia, the

1000
00:49:18,280 --> 00:49:21,040
Speaker 3: president's elected, but the Attorney general is elected separately, so

1001
00:49:21,280 --> 00:49:24,920
Speaker 3: they're autonomous from each other. So the Attorney General at

1002
00:49:24,960 --> 00:49:27,439
Speaker 3: that time was a guy named Gustavo de Grief, who

1003
00:49:27,480 --> 00:49:30,520
Speaker 3: was a very very smart man educated in the United States,

1004
00:49:30,640 --> 00:49:33,360
Speaker 3: I think at one of the Ivy League colleges. He

1005
00:49:33,440 --> 00:49:36,080
Speaker 3: came up with this idea of what he called a

1006
00:49:36,080 --> 00:49:39,319
Speaker 3: self surrender plan. And the way this worked is you

1007
00:49:39,440 --> 00:49:41,880
Speaker 3: come in and you plead guilty to a felony that

1008
00:49:41,960 --> 00:49:44,640
Speaker 3: you choose. You just pick whatever failing you want to

1009
00:49:44,640 --> 00:49:48,279
Speaker 3: plead guilty to, and in exchange, will absolve you of

1010
00:49:48,400 --> 00:49:51,680
Speaker 3: every other crime you've ever committed in your life. And

1011
00:49:51,200 --> 00:49:55,080
Speaker 3: this was geared towards Pablo, so Pablo heard about it,

1012
00:49:55,120 --> 00:49:56,520
Speaker 3: you know, and they got the word out, and so

1013
00:49:56,640 --> 00:49:58,760
Speaker 3: he sent a couple of his guys, in lower ranking

1014
00:49:58,800 --> 00:50:00,640
Speaker 3: guys and said, you know, go into pleak Gills. We'll

1015
00:50:00,640 --> 00:50:03,560
Speaker 3: see what happens. And it worked, you know, the government

1016
00:50:03,600 --> 00:50:06,840
Speaker 3: lived up to what they said. So finally Pablo said, well,

1017
00:50:06,880 --> 00:50:09,120
Speaker 3: you know what, I can take advantage of this. So

1018
00:50:09,160 --> 00:50:12,040
Speaker 3: he said, he calls up to the Attorney General, mister Grief,

1019
00:50:12,080 --> 00:50:14,360
Speaker 3: and he says, uh, listen, I want to take advantage

1020
00:50:14,360 --> 00:50:16,560
Speaker 3: of yourself surrender program. I want to come in and

1021
00:50:16,560 --> 00:50:19,319
Speaker 3: plead guilty. And of course the Attorney General say, oh,

1022
00:50:19,360 --> 00:50:21,680
Speaker 3: thank you, mister mescabor. I think this means so much

1023
00:50:21,680 --> 00:50:23,120
Speaker 3: for our country. This is going to be a new

1024
00:50:23,200 --> 00:50:26,680
Speaker 3: chapter in our history. And blah blah blah, and Papa says,

1025
00:50:26,719 --> 00:50:28,319
Speaker 3: we wait a minute. I got some conditions that go

1026
00:50:28,360 --> 00:50:31,640
Speaker 3: along with this. Oh what are they? Well, the first

1027
00:50:31,680 --> 00:50:33,400
Speaker 3: one is, you know what, I'm going to build my

1028
00:50:33,440 --> 00:50:36,200
Speaker 3: own prison because I needed to be a place that's secure,

1029
00:50:36,280 --> 00:50:37,840
Speaker 3: that will protect me because I've got a lot of

1030
00:50:37,920 --> 00:50:40,400
Speaker 3: enemies out there. And by the way, I'm going to

1031
00:50:40,440 --> 00:50:42,040
Speaker 3: pay it for it, because I don't want the Columbian

1032
00:50:42,080 --> 00:50:45,240
Speaker 3: citizens to have to bury that tax burd And Thettorney

1033
00:50:45,280 --> 00:50:47,640
Speaker 3: General says, okay, to hell and he says, well, okay.

1034
00:50:47,719 --> 00:50:51,560
Speaker 3: Next is the guards of the prison. I'm going to

1035
00:50:51,800 --> 00:50:53,799
Speaker 3: pay their salaries, because again I don't want to tie

1036
00:50:53,840 --> 00:50:55,680
Speaker 3: the citizens of Columbia to have to pay that bird

1037
00:50:55,719 --> 00:50:59,640
Speaker 3: that that bill. Turn General says, okay, where do you

1038
00:50:59,640 --> 00:51:05,360
Speaker 3: think they're is. Then he says, all right, my fellow prisoners,

1039
00:51:05,640 --> 00:51:07,600
Speaker 3: there's only going to be fourteen of us, me and

1040
00:51:07,680 --> 00:51:10,720
Speaker 3: thirteen others. And I'm gonna handpick my fellow prisoners because

1041
00:51:10,760 --> 00:51:12,680
Speaker 3: I need them to be people who were loyal to me,

1042
00:51:13,600 --> 00:51:15,360
Speaker 3: just in case somebody tries to come in and get me.

1043
00:51:16,040 --> 00:51:19,359
Speaker 3: And the Attorney General said okay. He said, well I'm

1044
00:51:19,360 --> 00:51:21,839
Speaker 3: not done yet. He said, uh, listen to all those

1045
00:51:21,880 --> 00:51:25,239
Speaker 3: good guys, the Columbia Police, Columbia military, especially those gringoes.

1046
00:51:25,719 --> 00:51:28,600
Speaker 3: None of those good guys can come within two miles

1047
00:51:28,600 --> 00:51:30,399
Speaker 3: of the perimeter of my prison because I don't want

1048
00:51:30,400 --> 00:51:33,000
Speaker 3: them sneaking any of you trying to kidnap me. And

1049
00:51:33,000 --> 00:51:36,600
Speaker 3: the attorney general says okay, and he says, okay, listen,

1050
00:51:36,680 --> 00:51:39,560
Speaker 3: I'm only gonna do five years. That's that's the max.

1051
00:51:39,800 --> 00:51:43,120
Speaker 3: Attorney general said okay. And on top of that, there

1052
00:51:43,160 --> 00:51:45,560
Speaker 3: were no stipulations to take any.

1053
00:51:45,400 --> 00:51:46,279
Speaker 4: Of his assets.

1054
00:51:47,200 --> 00:51:49,760
Speaker 3: This guy at that time was rated as the sixth

1055
00:51:50,040 --> 00:51:52,400
Speaker 3: seventh richest person in the world. I think it was,

1056
00:51:52,960 --> 00:51:58,439
Speaker 3: with an estimated wealth between eight and thirty billion dollars.

1057
00:51:58,760 --> 00:52:03,560
Speaker 5: Unbelievable, So oh he So Pablo goes anyway, they agreed everything.

1058
00:52:04,320 --> 00:52:06,640
Speaker 5: So Pablo goes in and they said, well, what are

1059
00:52:06,640 --> 00:52:09,200
Speaker 5: you gonna plead guilty too? And he says, well, you know,

1060
00:52:09,239 --> 00:52:11,239
Speaker 5: there's this one time where some guys were moving a

1061
00:52:11,239 --> 00:52:13,280
Speaker 5: load of cocaine. I didn't know about it, but apparently

1062
00:52:13,280 --> 00:52:15,600
Speaker 5: it was in the car. So shame on me. I

1063
00:52:15,640 --> 00:52:18,160
Speaker 5: was in the car. I'll plead guilty to that. And

1064
00:52:18,200 --> 00:52:18,920
Speaker 5: they said, okay.

1065
00:52:19,840 --> 00:52:23,600
Speaker 3: That absolved him of every other crime he committed, including

1066
00:52:23,719 --> 00:52:27,680
Speaker 3: murder mass murder. That's why we say it was the

1067
00:52:27,680 --> 00:52:30,120
Speaker 3: worst plea bargain and in the history of the world.

1068
00:52:30,880 --> 00:52:34,239
Speaker 1: Well you'll sign that it's unbelievable. Sign it was the

1069
00:52:34,239 --> 00:52:38,360
Speaker 1: greatest deal. Yeah, but uh and oh yeah, and the

1070
00:52:38,719 --> 00:52:44,239
Speaker 1: prison described the prison soccer field at luxury. It was.

1071
00:52:44,920 --> 00:52:45,560
Speaker 4: It was a joke.

1072
00:52:45,680 --> 00:52:49,480
Speaker 3: It was it was he he had plans this was

1073
00:52:49,480 --> 00:52:51,399
Speaker 3: going to be a resort when he finished his time

1074
00:52:51,440 --> 00:52:53,799
Speaker 3: in prison, because he thought, well, you know what, there's

1075
00:52:53,840 --> 00:52:55,799
Speaker 3: idiots all around the world that will pay good money

1076
00:52:55,840 --> 00:52:58,279
Speaker 3: to come and sleep into bed that Pablo Escobar slept in,

1077
00:52:58,400 --> 00:53:00,640
Speaker 3: or a cabana or a chilet that I've build outside

1078
00:53:00,640 --> 00:53:05,319
Speaker 3: the prison. So when when he escaped the next day,

1079
00:53:05,760 --> 00:53:07,880
Speaker 3: Hobby and I flew to Mediina. For the next eighteen

1080
00:53:07,880 --> 00:53:11,239
Speaker 3: months we lived in Mediene with Columbia National Police and

1081
00:53:11,320 --> 00:53:14,040
Speaker 3: with the first place we went was the prison. You know,

1082
00:53:14,080 --> 00:53:15,560
Speaker 3: we flew into the base and then they flew us

1083
00:53:15,560 --> 00:53:19,080
Speaker 3: over to the prison. We went to Pablo's area of

1084
00:53:19,080 --> 00:53:19,520
Speaker 3: the prison.

1085
00:53:20,080 --> 00:53:21,520
Speaker 4: He's got a two room suite.

1086
00:53:22,600 --> 00:53:27,040
Speaker 3: He's got everything is very nice. He's got a full

1087
00:53:27,080 --> 00:53:30,200
Speaker 3: sized microwave oven, he's got a side by side refrigerator, freezer.

1088
00:53:30,760 --> 00:53:33,319
Speaker 3: He's got custom built cabinets and a big banana bar

1089
00:53:33,440 --> 00:53:38,520
Speaker 3: with marstools. He's got color coordinated upholstery and draperies. He's

1090
00:53:38,520 --> 00:53:42,640
Speaker 3: got arn't work, legitimate, arn't work hanging on the wall.

1091
00:53:42,719 --> 00:53:43,000
Speaker 4: He had.

1092
00:53:43,200 --> 00:53:46,040
Speaker 3: There's a famous artist in Columbia just died here not

1093
00:53:46,120 --> 00:53:49,680
Speaker 3: so long ago, Fernando Botero. He had a Botero original

1094
00:53:49,719 --> 00:53:52,279
Speaker 3: that he reportedly paid one point five million dollars for.

1095
00:53:53,160 --> 00:53:56,359
Speaker 3: He had a salad or Dolly original worth over three

1096
00:53:56,400 --> 00:54:00,720
Speaker 3: million dollars hanging in his room. He had nice French

1097
00:54:00,800 --> 00:54:03,960
Speaker 3: couches and love seats and individual chairs and coffee tables,

1098
00:54:04,680 --> 00:54:06,360
Speaker 3: and then you go into the second room and that

1099
00:54:06,520 --> 00:54:11,160
Speaker 3: was his bedroom and office area. His bed was larger

1100
00:54:11,200 --> 00:54:13,880
Speaker 3: than any king sized bed. I mean it was massive.

1101
00:54:14,000 --> 00:54:17,440
Speaker 3: It was massive bed. He had a fireplace in his office.

1102
00:54:18,680 --> 00:54:21,040
Speaker 3: Some of the pictures that were hanging up in there

1103
00:54:21,080 --> 00:54:23,799
Speaker 3: were not pictures of his family, but he had all

1104
00:54:23,800 --> 00:54:26,440
Speaker 3: of his mug shots matted and framed, hanging on the wall.

1105
00:54:26,920 --> 00:54:28,680
Speaker 3: He didn't have a picture of himself and his son

1106
00:54:28,760 --> 00:54:31,400
Speaker 3: standing in front of our white house sixteen hundred Pennsylvania

1107
00:54:31,400 --> 00:54:32,600
Speaker 3: Avenue in Washington, d C.

1108
00:54:33,440 --> 00:54:37,399
Speaker 4: Really he had pictures. He had pictures of.

1109
00:54:37,440 --> 00:54:41,920
Speaker 3: Himself and Gustavo dressed up like American style gangsters. He

1110
00:54:41,960 --> 00:54:44,200
Speaker 3: had a picture of himself dressed up like manchu Villa,

1111
00:54:44,239 --> 00:54:48,360
Speaker 3: the Mexican bandit. He had a wanted poster framed hanging

1112
00:54:48,400 --> 00:54:52,080
Speaker 3: in his in his two rooms suite with his picture

1113
00:54:52,120 --> 00:54:55,200
Speaker 3: at the top and all his criminal buddies decorated on

1114
00:54:55,280 --> 00:54:55,880
Speaker 3: the picture.

1115
00:54:56,320 --> 00:54:59,560
Speaker 2: I said, you can't make this stuff up, but you

1116
00:54:59,600 --> 00:55:02,359
Speaker 2: would just you sound like you're jealous of what he had.

1117
00:55:02,440 --> 00:55:04,359
Speaker 2: It was in his in his prison.

1118
00:55:06,719 --> 00:55:09,279
Speaker 3: He had he had a zie tub in his bath

1119
00:55:09,320 --> 00:55:11,239
Speaker 3: he had a private bathroom with a chub.

1120
00:55:12,239 --> 00:55:14,240
Speaker 1: You want to be comfortable. He's going to be spending

1121
00:55:14,239 --> 00:55:16,040
Speaker 1: a lot of time there. I think you've been too

1122
00:55:16,080 --> 00:55:20,279
Speaker 1: harsh on him. Look, we're making we're making light of

1123
00:55:20,320 --> 00:55:22,839
Speaker 1: the situation, but you've got to you've got to see

1124
00:55:22,880 --> 00:55:25,080
Speaker 1: the humor in the in the horror, because it was

1125
00:55:25,160 --> 00:55:28,000
Speaker 1: horror that he was creating. And I think that it

1126
00:55:28,080 --> 00:55:32,760
Speaker 1: was quite often people look at the two ex cops

1127
00:55:32,800 --> 00:55:35,399
Speaker 1: talking and sort of laughing about that. But you've got

1128
00:55:35,440 --> 00:55:38,560
Speaker 1: to take some of the lightness out of all all

1129
00:55:38,560 --> 00:55:40,279
Speaker 1: the heavy things that were going on, because it was

1130
00:55:40,360 --> 00:55:44,080
Speaker 1: quite horrendous what the people he was killing and the

1131
00:55:44,160 --> 00:55:48,319
Speaker 1: damage he was doing. Before we finish Part Part one.

1132
00:55:48,640 --> 00:55:52,239
Speaker 1: I just want to talk about your open here for

1133
00:55:52,480 --> 00:55:56,080
Speaker 1: whatever you want to say about your partner, have you, Penna,

1134
00:55:57,280 --> 00:56:01,560
Speaker 1: the good and the bad, Because I look back, I

1135
00:56:01,600 --> 00:56:05,080
Speaker 1: look back at my career and investigations is defined by

1136
00:56:05,160 --> 00:56:07,960
Speaker 1: who are you working with and different things tell us

1137
00:56:07,960 --> 00:56:10,360
Speaker 1: about you two. It seems like a little bit like

1138
00:56:10,400 --> 00:56:13,319
Speaker 1: the odd couple, but sometimes the odd couple work out.

1139
00:56:13,360 --> 00:56:16,319
Speaker 3: Well, we're actually opposites of each other. I'm I've been

1140
00:56:16,320 --> 00:56:19,799
Speaker 3: married pretty much my whole life. He's he's married now,

1141
00:56:19,800 --> 00:56:23,279
Speaker 3: but he certainly wasn't married back then. I'm very organized,

1142
00:56:23,440 --> 00:56:26,759
Speaker 3: he's very unorganized. But the man has a brain like

1143
00:56:26,800 --> 00:56:30,279
Speaker 3: an encyclopedia. I mean, it was just fascinating, you know,

1144
00:56:30,320 --> 00:56:33,920
Speaker 3: when we're reporting our activities to Washington doing teletypes, cables

1145
00:56:33,960 --> 00:56:37,960
Speaker 3: whatever you call them nowadays, I'm typing out the details

1146
00:56:37,960 --> 00:56:40,319
Speaker 3: and they and of course Washing wants to know what

1147
00:56:40,400 --> 00:56:43,720
Speaker 3: the relationship is amongst everybody and this and whatever event happened.

1148
00:56:44,160 --> 00:56:46,600
Speaker 3: And I'd say, hab, okay, how's this person related to Pablo?

1149
00:56:46,640 --> 00:56:46,719
Speaker 2: Oh?

1150
00:56:46,800 --> 00:56:49,400
Speaker 3: Well, his wife is a cousin to Pablo's wife. And

1151
00:56:49,840 --> 00:56:52,800
Speaker 3: he would just lay the whole thing out and Washington

1152
00:56:52,880 --> 00:56:54,959
Speaker 3: loved it because we had all this detail in there.

1153
00:56:56,680 --> 00:56:59,279
Speaker 4: He we would have parties.

1154
00:56:59,000 --> 00:57:02,880
Speaker 3: And on weekends at you know, one of our apartments,

1155
00:57:03,400 --> 00:57:05,120
Speaker 3: and they were really good parties. I'll tell you it

1156
00:57:05,160 --> 00:57:07,200
Speaker 3: was a lot of them would go to daylight the

1157
00:57:07,200 --> 00:57:11,080
Speaker 3: next day. Javier would show up with a girlfriend, a

1158
00:57:11,080 --> 00:57:13,319
Speaker 3: different girlfriend at every party. He didn't stay very long

1159
00:57:13,360 --> 00:57:15,560
Speaker 3: because he was going out on a date. But I

1160
00:57:15,600 --> 00:57:18,560
Speaker 3: mean his like he dated miss the former Miss Columbia.

1161
00:57:18,600 --> 00:57:21,960
Speaker 3: These were beautiful young ladies that he was dating. The

1162
00:57:22,000 --> 00:57:25,720
Speaker 3: show shows that Pablo was or I mean the Havier

1163
00:57:25,840 --> 00:57:28,600
Speaker 3: was dating hookers and informants and communists. He didn't date

1164
00:57:28,640 --> 00:57:31,280
Speaker 3: anybody like that. But let me tell you, Garry, every

1165
00:57:31,320 --> 00:57:36,720
Speaker 3: other woman in Columbia was fair game. So I lovingly

1166
00:57:36,800 --> 00:57:40,200
Speaker 3: refer to Hvier as a man slut fair call.

1167
00:57:40,280 --> 00:57:42,800
Speaker 1: I think he's, uh, yeah, he's got to carry that,

1168
00:57:43,360 --> 00:57:47,000
Speaker 1: carry that reputation. Sounds like you had a great relationship

1169
00:57:47,000 --> 00:57:51,200
Speaker 1: and the fact that you were like different types. That's

1170
00:57:51,240 --> 00:57:53,640
Speaker 1: sometimes the perfect jee, isn't it. That gets you through

1171
00:57:53,680 --> 00:57:56,560
Speaker 1: those gets you through the precious situations. Really, when we

1172
00:57:56,600 --> 00:57:58,960
Speaker 1: get back, we're going to talk about where it really

1173
00:57:59,040 --> 00:58:04,400
Speaker 1: ramps up, when Pablo escapes and the hunt for him

1174
00:58:04,560 --> 00:58:09,200
Speaker 1: that finally led to a shootout, and you were actually

1175
00:58:09,600 --> 00:58:12,320
Speaker 1: all the photos that the people would see of when

1176
00:58:12,680 --> 00:58:15,840
Speaker 1: Pablo did meet his end. You were the person that

1177
00:58:15,880 --> 00:58:19,920
Speaker 1: took the photos at the location. And what a ride

1178
00:58:20,120 --> 00:58:22,360
Speaker 1: you guys went on for It was it eighteen months

1179
00:58:22,400 --> 00:58:25,439
Speaker 1: from the time he escaped from prison to the time

1180
00:58:25,480 --> 00:58:26,600
Speaker 1: that he was finally caught.

1181
00:58:26,920 --> 00:58:29,640
Speaker 3: It was he escaped in June ninety two and he

1182
00:58:30,000 --> 00:58:31,680
Speaker 3: was killed in December ninety three.

1183
00:58:32,040 --> 00:58:34,360
Speaker 1: Yeah, Well, when we get back for part two, we're

1184
00:58:34,360 --> 00:58:37,000
Speaker 1: going to talk about that, and that's I think some

1185
00:58:37,040 --> 00:58:39,840
Speaker 1: of the most intense bit of policing I've heard about

1186
00:58:39,960 --> 00:58:42,360
Speaker 1: the pressure you guys would have been under and everyone

1187
00:58:42,360 --> 00:58:46,360
Speaker 1: else and the sacrifices people made. So it will take

1188
00:58:46,400 --> 00:58:49,080
Speaker 1: a break and we'll be back back for part two shortly.

1189
00:58:49,320 --> 00:58:51,920
Speaker 2: Amazing, amazing story.