WEBVTT - The case that haunts me: David Heilpern Pt.2 0:00:01.880 --> 0:00:04.880 The public has had a long held fascination with detectives. 0:00:05.360 --> 0:00:08.039 Detective see aside of life. The average person is never 0:00:08.119 --> 0:00:11.119 exposed her I spent thirty four years as a cop. 0:00:11.560 --> 0:00:14.040 For twenty five of those years I was catching killers. 0:00:14.440 --> 0:00:16.200 That's what I did for a living. I was a 0:00:16.200 --> 0:00:20.560 homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead, 0:00:20.600 --> 0:00:23.120 I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated. 0:00:23.840 --> 0:00:26.400 The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories 0:00:26.440 --> 0:00:28.760 from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw 0:00:28.800 --> 0:00:31.440 and honest, just like the people I talk to. Some 0:00:31.600 --> 0:00:34.640 of the content and language might be confronting. That's because 0:00:34.640 --> 0:00:37.640 no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged. 0:00:38.159 --> 0:00:40.400 Join me now as I take you into this world. 0:00:46.479 --> 0:00:49.360 Welcome back to part two of my chat. We've retired 0:00:49.440 --> 0:00:53.000 magistrate David Helper. Now, if you listen to part one, 0:00:53.159 --> 0:00:55.440 you would have found David is probably not the type 0:00:55.440 --> 0:00:58.800 of person who you would think occupied a magistrate's position 0:00:58.840 --> 0:01:02.680 for over twenty years. In part two, David told me 0:01:02.720 --> 0:01:05.360 about the time his family was relocated to a safe 0:01:05.440 --> 0:01:09.080 house over concerns of retribution from a man who appeared 0:01:09.080 --> 0:01:13.080 at his court. We get his surprising views on drug legislation. 0:01:13.760 --> 0:01:16.560 And we also talked about the emotional and mental impact 0:01:16.640 --> 0:01:19.840 of someone in a judicial position. I think this is 0:01:19.880 --> 0:01:22.800 something most of us had not considered, but David really 0:01:22.800 --> 0:01:26.399 opened up about it. We also talked about sovereign citizens 0:01:26.800 --> 0:01:29.680 and how AI might change the face of our legal system. 0:01:30.360 --> 0:01:35.479 It was a great chat. David. Welcome back to part 0:01:35.520 --> 0:01:36.680 two of I Catchkillers. 0:01:37.600 --> 0:01:38.000 Thanks. 0:01:39.080 --> 0:01:42.759 Thanks, that's a bit underwhelming. Thanks well. 0:01:42.760 --> 0:01:45.039 I enjoyed the first half, so I hope the second 0:01:45.080 --> 0:01:45.839 half is as good. 0:01:46.080 --> 0:01:50.080 Great local courts. We were talking during the break that 0:01:50.360 --> 0:01:54.720 you see all aspects of life, and the good, the bad, 0:01:54.800 --> 0:01:58.560 the ugly literally come through the local courts and you 0:01:58.640 --> 0:02:01.600 see some humor and there's you see some humanity. You 0:02:01.640 --> 0:02:05.120 see every aspect of life. Any funny things happened to 0:02:05.160 --> 0:02:07.560 you when you're on the bench. 0:02:08.520 --> 0:02:11.320 Looks so many that I'm sure I could bore your 0:02:11.360 --> 0:02:14.360 audience for dat. But I did sentence somebody who refused 0:02:14.400 --> 0:02:16.480 to stand up, and I said stand up, please, and 0:02:16.919 --> 0:02:19.840 he didn't, and I said, come on, stand up, this 0:02:19.960 --> 0:02:23.400 is serious. And then I realized he was in a wheelchair. 0:02:23.800 --> 0:02:24.960 That was not a good look. 0:02:25.040 --> 0:02:25.760 That's embarrassing. 0:02:26.560 --> 0:02:29.760 But another guy I refused bail too, and you know, 0:02:29.880 --> 0:02:32.680 as he was being led out of court very unhappy, 0:02:32.720 --> 0:02:36.320 he goes to me, oh, you fat cunt, and said, 0:02:36.760 --> 0:02:41.040 did you call me fat? And fortunately he laughed. I 0:02:41.160 --> 0:02:43.920 laughed and we left it at that. But you know, 0:02:44.040 --> 0:02:47.440 court is a funny place. It's tense, and so anything 0:02:47.440 --> 0:02:50.440 that breaks the ice can be really very funny, even 0:02:50.440 --> 0:02:52.600 though it's not so funny outside court. 0:02:52.720 --> 0:02:55.640 Yeah, and there's a certain sharpness and a wit that 0:02:55.760 --> 0:02:58.440 comes with the type of people in court. And I'm 0:02:58.440 --> 0:03:02.560 not just talking the legal for there. Some of the 0:03:02.600 --> 0:03:05.960 defendants come before the court, some of the comments that 0:03:06.280 --> 0:03:08.600 they make are quite hilarious. 0:03:08.240 --> 0:03:11.040 And you know, there's language that they don't understand, like 0:03:11.520 --> 0:03:15.200 a defense low will often call prosecutor on my friend 0:03:15.400 --> 0:03:18.200 or my learned friend or my very learned friend. And 0:03:18.280 --> 0:03:20.600 half the time you see the defendants and sometimes they 0:03:20.680 --> 0:03:23.680 jump up and go, I'm not staying here is your friends, 0:03:24.520 --> 0:03:26.880 you know, and you just think, well, you know, what 0:03:26.960 --> 0:03:27.600 hope is there? 0:03:27.840 --> 0:03:31.160 Yeah? Well, I think in that environment you've got to 0:03:31.160 --> 0:03:33.360 be able to laugh where you can. It's a little 0:03:33.360 --> 0:03:35.320 bit hard when you're sitting there as a magistrate that 0:03:35.400 --> 0:03:38.880 sees you when you're sitting in at the back of 0:03:38.920 --> 0:03:39.280 the court. 0:03:39.360 --> 0:03:42.480 But yeah, and it's even worse when everyone in front 0:03:42.520 --> 0:03:44.480 of you starts laughing and you've got to keep it 0:03:44.560 --> 0:03:47.840 straight face. Yeah, you just learn to be a good actor. 0:03:48.120 --> 0:03:52.880 And I also and no, I don't want you to 0:03:53.480 --> 0:03:55.920 acknowledge this. I can say it from my position when 0:03:55.920 --> 0:03:58.880 I'm sitting in the gallery. Some court matters can be 0:03:59.040 --> 0:04:02.000 very dry and very long, and it might be after 0:04:02.120 --> 0:04:04.880 lunch and it's been a long day and you start 0:04:04.960 --> 0:04:08.040 to start the nod off or your mind drift somewhere else. 0:04:08.720 --> 0:04:12.120 There's a lot of concentration that's required as a magistrate. 0:04:12.160 --> 0:04:15.400 Now I'm always gobsmacked by I could have worked on 0:04:15.440 --> 0:04:18.120 a brief, not just magistrates, with judges as well, for 0:04:18.160 --> 0:04:22.000 a long time, intricate briefs. It's taken to the court, 0:04:22.080 --> 0:04:24.600 it's been explained once to the person sitting on the bench, 0:04:24.640 --> 0:04:26.880 and they seem the grasp of the concept. There's a 0:04:26.920 --> 0:04:30.200 real skill to be able to pick up what's important. 0:04:31.400 --> 0:04:33.600 As hard as it is to believe, I actually found 0:04:33.640 --> 0:04:36.360 it quite a relief because the vast majority of judging 0:04:36.480 --> 0:04:40.440 is actually listening. Yeah, you know, and you do get 0:04:40.480 --> 0:04:45.400 better at it over time and there's very little after 0:04:45.520 --> 0:04:47.920 ten or fifteen or twenty years, there's not that much 0:04:48.000 --> 0:04:50.560 that's new that you haven't seen before and that you 0:04:50.640 --> 0:04:56.200 can't pick up pretty quickly. But good lawyers, good lawyers 0:04:56.240 --> 0:05:00.040 make for good cases. And you know, good lawyers and 0:05:00.120 --> 0:05:03.640 never boring. They may be thorough, but they're always they 0:05:03.760 --> 0:05:07.200 always explaining things in short bites that you can comprehend 0:05:07.240 --> 0:05:09.960 and that really give a good grasp on the case. 0:05:10.000 --> 0:05:12.680 And that's why if you've got really excellent lawyers and 0:05:12.720 --> 0:05:16.440 prosecutors in front of you, then cases run smoothly. 0:05:16.760 --> 0:05:21.080 It makes sense. Did you find that your skills improved, 0:05:21.480 --> 0:05:24.159 like your skills your experience and that did you think 0:05:24.160 --> 0:05:27.000 you're a better magistrate towards the latter part of your 0:05:27.080 --> 0:05:30.400 career or when you've got like over a decade of experience? 0:05:30.520 --> 0:05:33.640 Was it something a job that you continually learn. 0:05:33.520 --> 0:05:37.560 On absolutely every day was learning experience? And I think 0:05:37.600 --> 0:05:40.719 those who stopped learning stopped being good at what they're doing. 0:05:40.760 --> 0:05:43.000 And look, I'm sure you found that in policing too, 0:05:43.080 --> 0:05:46.640 and probably in podcast making or me now being back 0:05:46.640 --> 0:05:50.359 at the university. Every day's a learning experience. But certainly 0:05:50.360 --> 0:05:53.359 I think the other thing is is that what I 0:05:53.400 --> 0:05:56.720 got much better at was recognizing that people weren't with 0:05:56.839 --> 0:06:01.040 some exceptions, people weren't generally good or bad. Their behavior 0:06:01.640 --> 0:06:04.960 was good or bad. And once I drew that distinction, 0:06:05.040 --> 0:06:07.120 which took quite a few years to get to, it 0:06:07.160 --> 0:06:09.360 really started to dawn on me that we're dealing with 0:06:09.440 --> 0:06:13.479 whole humans, some of whom are behaving badly, but that 0:06:13.520 --> 0:06:17.600 doesn't make them bad people. And keeping that in and 0:06:17.760 --> 0:06:21.400 you know, you could see that both in victims and perpetrators, 0:06:21.440 --> 0:06:26.359 in witnesses, in police and it really helped me. But 0:06:26.480 --> 0:06:28.840 I did get better at it. I think over time, 0:06:29.880 --> 0:06:32.479 certainly I was calmer. 0:06:32.920 --> 0:06:36.640 Yeah, I would imagine that you're confident, and you've seen 0:06:36.720 --> 0:06:39.040 something like this before, you know how to deal with it. 0:06:39.440 --> 0:06:43.040 What you said about someone does something bad doesn't make 0:06:43.080 --> 0:06:46.320 them a bad person. I work very closely with doctor 0:06:46.360 --> 0:06:50.880 Sarah ull A forensic psychologists in homicide, and she and 0:06:51.080 --> 0:06:55.560 I valued her opinion on some really interesting, tough, tough cases. 0:06:55.560 --> 0:06:57.400 And she was great to work with because she'd be 0:06:57.440 --> 0:06:59.919 looking at things from a slightly different perspective than the 0:07:00.279 --> 0:07:03.080 looking through it from the police lens. But she was 0:07:03.120 --> 0:07:06.080 always at pain saying to me, Gary, just because someone's 0:07:06.279 --> 0:07:09.840 done something bad doesn't make them a bad person. And 0:07:10.760 --> 0:07:13.760 I've really come to accept that as you found out 0:07:13.800 --> 0:07:17.560 that we all make mistakes in life, and you know, 0:07:17.720 --> 0:07:20.559 it's what you've done before then what you do after 0:07:20.600 --> 0:07:23.400 it that doesn't sort of define you. And I think 0:07:23.440 --> 0:07:25.000 it's a good thing to hang on to when you, 0:07:25.280 --> 0:07:27.880 especially in your role when you're judging people, to be 0:07:27.920 --> 0:07:30.760 able to see that people but not necessarily bad. They've 0:07:30.800 --> 0:07:33.160 made a mistake, as we all do at some stage 0:07:33.160 --> 0:07:33.880 in our life. 0:07:34.240 --> 0:07:37.080 And as part of sentencing, would I would say that, 0:07:37.320 --> 0:07:40.559 I would say, you know clearly, you know from reading 0:07:40.560 --> 0:07:43.200 all the submissions your family care and love for you, 0:07:43.400 --> 0:07:46.400 as do many members of the community have written on 0:07:46.480 --> 0:07:49.480 your behalf. On the other hand, what you've done is 0:07:50.200 --> 0:07:53.040 behavior that's completely unacceptable in our community, and you have 0:07:53.120 --> 0:07:55.680 to be punished for it, both for you and for 0:07:56.600 --> 0:07:59.480 all of society and for the victims. But people would 0:07:59.840 --> 0:08:03.000 if if you approach people like that, you know, for 0:08:03.080 --> 0:08:05.480 a judicial officer to say to someone you're a bad 0:08:05.560 --> 0:08:10.040 person and you're evil, it takes away it robs them 0:08:10.240 --> 0:08:14.120 of an ability to reform and rehabilitate, I think, or 0:08:14.120 --> 0:08:17.040 it makes it much harder for them. Of course, there's 0:08:17.080 --> 0:08:19.920 some exceptions, and I did deal with some people who 0:08:20.920 --> 0:08:27.400 I would describe as really pathologically evil, not many, but some. 0:08:27.520 --> 0:08:29.240 Did you come across some like that as well? 0:08:29.480 --> 0:08:32.839 Yeah, most definitely. There's some people that are in jail 0:08:32.880 --> 0:08:34.960 for the rest of their lives that I was involved in, 0:08:35.200 --> 0:08:38.400 and I'm more than happy. I know the evil side 0:08:38.520 --> 0:08:42.400 that those people, and you're not going to change them. 0:08:42.920 --> 0:08:45.679 But there are other people and people thought as a 0:08:45.679 --> 0:08:48.560 homicide detective, like everyone that you locked up must have 0:08:48.600 --> 0:08:53.439 been a terrible human being. No, yeah, yes, done a 0:08:53.520 --> 0:08:55.800 terrible thing, and there's you know, in the scale of things, 0:08:55.840 --> 0:08:58.240 there's not much worse than murder. But some of the 0:08:58.280 --> 0:09:00.840 people have made a mistake, a huge, huge mistake, and 0:09:00.880 --> 0:09:04.920 the consequences have been devastating, But doesn't make them that 0:09:05.320 --> 0:09:08.680 evil person. There is pure evil. That's my take on that. 0:09:08.720 --> 0:09:11.560 Other people might have different opinions, but I think it 0:09:11.559 --> 0:09:15.320 would be supported with research. There's some people that just 0:09:15.520 --> 0:09:19.120 inherently evil and society does need to be protected from them. 0:09:19.520 --> 0:09:22.120 Yeah. Absolutely. I dealt with one case and when it 0:09:22.160 --> 0:09:24.640 went to the district court, he got forty eight years. 0:09:25.040 --> 0:09:28.400 That's what he said to what he did to his daughters, 0:09:29.080 --> 0:09:33.360 and you know, I'm glad. I'm glad he's behind bars 0:09:33.480 --> 0:09:35.080 until after his death. For sure. 0:09:35.280 --> 0:09:39.440 Well, I'm assuming there that it must be a child's 0:09:39.480 --> 0:09:44.560 sexual abuse. And indeed, the thing that about that offense 0:09:44.600 --> 0:09:46.760 that separates it from a lot of others is that 0:09:47.480 --> 0:09:51.800 children should be protected, that there is no mitigating circumstances 0:09:52.720 --> 0:09:55.559 for a child to be sexually assaulted. And also the 0:09:55.679 --> 0:09:59.640 level of planning and the reoffending and the ongoing offending. 0:09:59.679 --> 0:10:02.960 That's not like a one punch situation of about the 0:10:03.320 --> 0:10:06.360 side of the local club in an argument. This is 0:10:06.400 --> 0:10:09.920 people that have deliberately decided to do this and then 0:10:10.280 --> 0:10:11.400 do it again and again. 0:10:11.440 --> 0:10:15.120 And yeah, and I think there's a cost in the 0:10:15.160 --> 0:10:18.200 criminal justice system. And of course I'm not taking away 0:10:18.200 --> 0:10:20.440 from the harm to the victims and the victims family, 0:10:21.080 --> 0:10:27.360 but the investigating police, the magistrates and judges, the jurors, 0:10:28.080 --> 0:10:34.640 the witnesses, for everyone. It's an incredibly grueling experience. I mean, 0:10:34.679 --> 0:10:38.439 it's at least in homicide, they're either dead or they're not. 0:10:39.120 --> 0:10:40.559 I know what you're saying. 0:10:40.840 --> 0:10:45.240 Yeah, and you know that that whole process is incredibly 0:10:45.320 --> 0:10:47.240 damaging for people. I'm sure we've all seen it in 0:10:47.280 --> 0:10:51.280 our careers, people who are so harmed, not by their 0:10:51.320 --> 0:10:52.880 involvement in those cases. 0:10:53.720 --> 0:10:58.280 Yeah, And I like there's pressure on the homicide when 0:10:58.440 --> 0:11:01.720 leading investigations, and the rare occasion that you're looking for 0:11:01.760 --> 0:11:03.880 a serial killer or a contract killer, you know that 0:11:03.920 --> 0:11:09.200 it's consequences you don't bring that person to justice. But 0:11:09.240 --> 0:11:13.199 the pressure on the investigators in sex crimes, especially child protection. 0:11:13.360 --> 0:11:16.439 Please you get a report of that. And you know, 0:11:16.640 --> 0:11:19.160 if I don't move on this straight away, maybe the 0:11:19.240 --> 0:11:21.760 child's going to be assaulted again. There's a lot of 0:11:21.800 --> 0:11:24.520 pressure there. It brings me I jumping forward. But we 0:11:24.600 --> 0:11:28.240 can go back to what we're talking about. You write 0:11:28.240 --> 0:11:34.599 a paper on lifting the judicial veil, Vicarious Trauma PTSD 0:11:34.960 --> 0:11:38.679 and the judiciary. A personal story. I bought some quotes 0:11:38.720 --> 0:11:41.200 out there because we're talking about the impact of child 0:11:41.640 --> 0:11:44.760 sexual abuse and this is an extract from your experience. 0:11:45.280 --> 0:11:47.000 I'll read it out and I'll get you get you 0:11:47.040 --> 0:11:49.880 to comment on it. About twelve years ago, I was 0:11:49.880 --> 0:11:52.880 sitting in a series of cases involving child pornography in 0:11:53.000 --> 0:11:55.880 Bateman's Bay. In those days, it was necessary for the 0:11:55.880 --> 0:11:58.520 courts to view the pictures and the videos to determine 0:11:58.559 --> 0:12:02.719 the seriousness of the charges. Fortunately, that is far less 0:12:02.800 --> 0:12:07.000 often today due to computer classification. As is regular the case, 0:12:07.080 --> 0:12:10.320 the charges include thousands and sometimes tens of thousands of 0:12:10.360 --> 0:12:14.680 images and hundreds of videos. I'll not retraumatize all of 0:12:14.760 --> 0:12:19.920 us or revictimize the victims by describing the images. That's 0:12:21.200 --> 0:12:25.439 pretty heavy. And I think from there you've read on 0:12:25.480 --> 0:12:29.200 a quote by the Chief Magistrate and Police versus Power, 0:12:30.280 --> 0:12:34.600 who describes what you described there. To see the pale 0:12:34.679 --> 0:12:36.679 death of innocence and the trust in the eyes of 0:12:36.720 --> 0:12:39.520 so many young children is to bemoan the capacity of 0:12:39.559 --> 0:12:42.439 some members of the human race to descend into the 0:12:42.559 --> 0:12:47.960 dark and depraved side of the human condition. I pulled 0:12:48.040 --> 0:12:51.280 both those quotes out because I thought that at some 0:12:51.400 --> 0:12:54.080 point in time we would talk about that. But that 0:12:54.320 --> 0:12:57.800 is that is really what we're talking about. The heaviness 0:12:57.840 --> 0:12:58.480 of what you. 0:12:58.480 --> 0:13:03.680 See, absolutely, and let's keep in mind who Power was. 0:13:03.760 --> 0:13:07.160 It was Patrick Power, who was the Deputy DPP for 0:13:07.200 --> 0:13:09.360 the state of New South Wales who was charged with 0:13:09.480 --> 0:13:11.760 possession of that child pornography. 0:13:11.880 --> 0:13:12.120 Right. 0:13:12.160 --> 0:13:14.480 He was working as a Deputy DPP of New South 0:13:14.480 --> 0:13:17.280 Wales and his computer needed some repairs. He sent it 0:13:17.320 --> 0:13:22.480 in and they discovered a cash of child pornography material there. 0:13:22.679 --> 0:13:26.679 They then conducted an investigation obviously searched his home and 0:13:26.720 --> 0:13:30.840 the like, and found more. He pleaded guilty and was 0:13:30.880 --> 0:13:34.640 sentenced to a term of imprisonment several years imprisonment, and 0:13:34.800 --> 0:13:37.880 obviously that was the end of his career. That was 0:13:37.920 --> 0:13:43.319 the case that I was quoting from, which is extraordinary 0:13:43.320 --> 0:13:46.080 for a whole set of other reasons that we could 0:13:46.080 --> 0:13:46.680 talk about. 0:13:47.120 --> 0:13:49.840 Well, I didn't pick it up. He prosecuted the murder 0:13:49.840 --> 0:13:52.160 trial I was involved in. I knew him well, and 0:13:52.559 --> 0:13:56.000 I was disgusted and shocked when I heard of what 0:13:56.160 --> 0:13:56.760 happened there. 0:13:57.080 --> 0:13:59.800 So the reaction for me of having to deal with 0:13:59.840 --> 0:14:04.680 it that nest of cases was really horrific. I couldn't 0:14:04.760 --> 0:14:08.720 get the images out of my head and as a result, 0:14:08.880 --> 0:14:11.600 you know, I really went through a very difficult mental time. 0:14:11.640 --> 0:14:14.080 And again I don't you know, there's police who have 0:14:14.120 --> 0:14:16.760 to classify this every day, and of course these are 0:14:16.800 --> 0:14:19.520 real children who are being filmed. So I don't want 0:14:19.560 --> 0:14:22.720 to take away from a moment the horror of the victims. 0:14:22.760 --> 0:14:26.000 But the price of that of needing to deal with 0:14:26.040 --> 0:14:30.320 that material for me was really high. I found it 0:14:30.560 --> 0:14:34.080 very difficult to sleep. I had nightmares with those recurring images, 0:14:34.720 --> 0:14:38.080 and it became very difficult for me to do my job. 0:14:38.880 --> 0:14:41.120 I'm not ashamed of that at all. In fact, you'd 0:14:41.120 --> 0:14:44.320 think it's a sign of humanity that you can't cope 0:14:44.440 --> 0:14:49.040 with that sort of stuff. And clearly I thought I 0:14:49.080 --> 0:14:51.560 was terrifically resilient. In the first few cases I did 0:14:51.600 --> 0:14:54.080 didn't affect me. But it's a bit like a sponge, 0:14:54.200 --> 0:14:57.960 and over time that sponge got full, and you know, 0:14:58.200 --> 0:15:00.520 I realized that I had choices, so I could either 0:15:00.560 --> 0:15:03.400 stop doing cases like that or get some help. 0:15:03.600 --> 0:15:07.040 Yeah, and as a magistrate, you've got help. You've got 0:15:07.080 --> 0:15:09.600 professional help there to I did. 0:15:09.880 --> 0:15:12.680 I find the Chief Magistrate and said, I'm not coping 0:15:12.720 --> 0:15:14.800 with these cases. I explained what was happening to me, 0:15:14.880 --> 0:15:20.160 and so delight, you know, pleased that my colleagues, you know, 0:15:20.400 --> 0:15:22.200 I spoke to them and they said, well, you just 0:15:22.280 --> 0:15:25.560 don't do those cases for I will swap. And I 0:15:25.600 --> 0:15:28.600 did spent twelve eighteen months not doing those cases, getting 0:15:28.600 --> 0:15:33.080 some professional help, getting some therapy and talk therapy about it, 0:15:33.160 --> 0:15:38.320 and it really helped. And coincidentally, during that time, a 0:15:38.360 --> 0:15:41.720 lot of the computer classification came in and rarely after 0:15:41.760 --> 0:15:44.280 that did I need to certainly not look at the 0:15:44.360 --> 0:15:48.920 same numbers of pictures. But you know, I think it's 0:15:49.480 --> 0:15:52.000 the price. One of the prices that people don't talk 0:15:52.000 --> 0:15:54.600 about or even think about of doing that kind of 0:15:54.640 --> 0:15:57.160 work is that it can have a really significant impact 0:15:57.800 --> 0:15:58.400 deep down. 0:15:58.760 --> 0:16:01.640 It can take a time, but the fact that you 0:16:01.960 --> 0:16:04.720 put your hand up and addressed it and then could 0:16:04.760 --> 0:16:07.120 move forward from I think a lot of people, and 0:16:07.560 --> 0:16:10.440 I'm talking more so with police because they understand that 0:16:10.480 --> 0:16:12.840 world more. A lot of people don't put their hand 0:16:12.880 --> 0:16:16.280 up until it's too late, and yeah, if they got 0:16:16.720 --> 0:16:19.040 just acknowledge, Okay, let me step away from this a 0:16:19.080 --> 0:16:21.480 little bit. I need to break from this type of work. 0:16:21.680 --> 0:16:24.720 Well, in the last few years we've had two magistrates 0:16:24.720 --> 0:16:28.280 in Victoria kill themselves and one family court judge in 0:16:28.760 --> 0:16:33.240 Queensland to kill himself. So you know, there's and of 0:16:33.240 --> 0:16:36.080 course we know about the rates of police suicide and 0:16:36.560 --> 0:16:40.800 suicide and the legal profession and is it any wonder 0:16:40.840 --> 0:16:42.560 when you're dealing with that kind of pressure and that 0:16:42.640 --> 0:16:43.600 kind of crime. 0:16:43.520 --> 0:16:45.320 And it is a dark world, and as we talked 0:16:45.320 --> 0:16:48.320 about in part one, you are isolated as a magistrate, 0:16:48.440 --> 0:16:51.360 Like even in policing, we see some horrific things, but 0:16:51.400 --> 0:16:53.880 you could share it with the team because invariably there's 0:16:54.520 --> 0:16:58.320 people that have experienced it. As a magistrate, you sit there, 0:16:58.720 --> 0:17:02.520 sit there on your own and confronted with all this. 0:17:02.880 --> 0:17:04.600 And you're meant to be above it all. You're meant 0:17:04.640 --> 0:17:07.280 to be Cupucantan and not affected by it. 0:17:07.400 --> 0:17:09.720 Yeah. Well, I think it says a lot because you 0:17:09.720 --> 0:17:11.679 would have heard it, and we all hear it with 0:17:11.720 --> 0:17:16.080 the shock jocks and the headlines in the paper about judges. 0:17:16.480 --> 0:17:19.720 If this happened to if this happened to their loved one, 0:17:19.760 --> 0:17:22.800 they'd give the person the harder sentence. I think sitting down, 0:17:22.920 --> 0:17:25.360 having a chat with you and giving it the exposure 0:17:25.440 --> 0:17:29.679 to our audience and listeners allow them to understand that 0:17:29.720 --> 0:17:31.879 there is a human sitting there. Quite often you're just 0:17:31.960 --> 0:17:34.800 this character that sitting on the bench and we don't 0:17:34.840 --> 0:17:37.679 think about that you've got emotions. You're just the magistrate 0:17:37.760 --> 0:17:40.920 or the judge. So I think it's good that we 0:17:40.960 --> 0:17:42.520 talk about it and there is an impact. 0:17:43.400 --> 0:17:47.880 Yeah, and you realize that there's discretion. I mean, when 0:17:47.920 --> 0:17:51.359 you're sentencing someone, you've got discretion from the very minor 0:17:51.400 --> 0:17:56.240 penalties to the maximum penalties, and where you drop that line, 0:17:56.680 --> 0:17:58.920 of course, is to do with precedent and what high 0:17:59.000 --> 0:18:01.600 courts are said, what the lawyers say before you and 0:18:01.640 --> 0:18:04.640 point out what's an appropriate sentence. But you also carry 0:18:04.680 --> 0:18:09.119 your own baggage. And there weren't many chop pornography offenders 0:18:09.160 --> 0:18:12.639 who left mich court without getting really long jail sentences 0:18:13.359 --> 0:18:15.399 because of my abhorrence for the crime. 0:18:16.040 --> 0:18:20.320 Well, I think we had a brief discussion about it 0:18:20.359 --> 0:18:25.080 the other day, but I was surprised about the amount 0:18:25.080 --> 0:18:28.639 of people in prison that had been sexually assaulted as 0:18:28.760 --> 0:18:32.159 children and the trajectory that took them on their life 0:18:32.200 --> 0:18:35.879 from that point in time. And when we talk about 0:18:36.359 --> 0:18:40.520 reducing crime, and we talked about other ways of preventing 0:18:40.600 --> 0:18:43.080 crime from happening, I think we need to have a 0:18:43.160 --> 0:18:46.960 real hard look at child sex offenders and the impact 0:18:46.960 --> 0:18:49.440 that they have on society. Because the amount of people 0:18:49.480 --> 0:18:53.359 in prison that have been sexually abused as children that 0:18:54.040 --> 0:18:56.640 might necessitate them going into prison, but it's the way 0:18:56.680 --> 0:18:58.960 they live their life with a risk they might become 0:18:59.040 --> 0:19:02.359 drug dependent sorts of things because it disrupts their life. 0:19:02.840 --> 0:19:05.080 We're really got to look at going as hard as 0:19:05.119 --> 0:19:07.000 we can on it, and I don't think there would 0:19:07.040 --> 0:19:08.760 be many people that would argue against it. 0:19:09.760 --> 0:19:11.680 I think that's true, and I think the other aspect 0:19:11.800 --> 0:19:15.400 is the harm that's done to children by witnessing domestic violence. 0:19:16.359 --> 0:19:19.520 You know, over the years, I realized that young people 0:19:19.600 --> 0:19:24.000 who came before me had a lot of things differences, 0:19:24.280 --> 0:19:26.080 but a lot of things in common. And one of 0:19:26.119 --> 0:19:29.840 the really common features of young young criminals, kids who 0:19:29.880 --> 0:19:33.600 are committing crimes, who were all concerned about increases in crimes, 0:19:33.640 --> 0:19:36.679 and particularly young people, but one thing they all or 0:19:36.760 --> 0:19:40.359 almost all had in common was that they had witnessed crime, 0:19:40.880 --> 0:19:44.479 They had witnessed violence in their homes. And you know, 0:19:44.520 --> 0:19:48.040 there's a price to pay for the kinds of violence 0:19:48.080 --> 0:19:52.080 that is perpetrated on children, all perpetrated around children, and 0:19:52.400 --> 0:19:53.240 it's a big price. 0:19:53.880 --> 0:19:58.439 That's interesting. Certainly clearly understand what you're saying there, and 0:19:58.440 --> 0:20:02.360 I'm just processing in my mind, But that environment that 0:20:02.760 --> 0:20:06.520 those formative views as a child growing up, if you're 0:20:06.560 --> 0:20:09.360 in a safe environment, that sets you on a pathway 0:20:09.440 --> 0:20:12.120 that you're given your best chance of making the most 0:20:12.359 --> 0:20:15.000 of the life. If you've grown up in a violent 0:20:15.080 --> 0:20:19.040 household with domestic violence going on. I can see the 0:20:19.080 --> 0:20:22.000 problems that that could create, but you actually recognize it 0:20:22.040 --> 0:20:23.880 and saw that in all the years that you were 0:20:23.920 --> 0:20:26.399 on the bench and people that were coming before you. 0:20:26.520 --> 0:20:28.879 Yeah, it's I think I better do some research on it. 0:20:29.040 --> 0:20:33.080 Yeah, well, there you go, there's the next paper. We'll 0:20:33.119 --> 0:20:35.320 bring you. We'll bring you back. How long were you 0:20:35.359 --> 0:20:37.200 taken the whole three years? 0:20:37.480 --> 0:20:38.320 It'll take me a little. 0:20:38.320 --> 0:20:42.960 We'll book you in domestic violence. There's a lot of 0:20:43.000 --> 0:20:46.200 talk about it across the country, not just New South Wales, 0:20:46.240 --> 0:20:48.359 and how we really need to get a handle on 0:20:48.440 --> 0:20:53.440 it and the end result where partners, invariably female partners 0:20:53.480 --> 0:20:58.240 are taken to the conclusion where they've been murdered. How 0:20:58.280 --> 0:21:01.120 did you deal with domestic violence situations in the court, 0:21:01.160 --> 0:21:04.119 because in the local court and in the areas that 0:21:03.200 --> 0:21:06.600 you presided in, I would imagine that a lot of 0:21:06.640 --> 0:21:10.680 your casework would have been avios and domestic violence situations. 0:21:11.320 --> 0:21:15.840 Absolutely, And it's not the most glamorous work for police either, 0:21:16.880 --> 0:21:21.080 you know, And it's frustrating. So often victims would get 0:21:21.119 --> 0:21:23.880 into the witness box and I can't remember I fell over, 0:21:24.280 --> 0:21:27.560 I was drunk. I don't know what happened. But you know, 0:21:27.800 --> 0:21:30.800 at one time in Grafton Local Court a woman her 0:21:30.880 --> 0:21:33.560 partner had been charged with beating her on several occasions, 0:21:33.600 --> 0:21:35.679 and I think it was about the fourth or fifth 0:21:35.720 --> 0:21:38.200 time she got in the witness box and we're all 0:21:38.240 --> 0:21:40.680 expecting the same again, and I saw the defeated look 0:21:40.720 --> 0:21:44.159 on the arresting officer's faces, saying here we go, and 0:21:44.200 --> 0:21:48.560 she said he hit me, and we all were just staggered. 0:21:48.600 --> 0:21:52.800 It took five times, five lots of great police work, patience, 0:21:53.359 --> 0:21:57.360 making a safe environment, and eventually she'd had enough. And 0:21:57.560 --> 0:22:00.480 it was a real lesson to me that there's a 0:22:00.600 --> 0:22:04.359