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Speaker 1: The public has had a long held fascination with detectives.

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Speaker 1: Detective see aside of life. The average person is never

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Speaker 1: exposed her I spent thirty four years as a cop.

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Speaker 1: For twenty five of those years I was catching killers.

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Speaker 1: That's what I did for a living. I was a

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Speaker 1: homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead,

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Speaker 1: I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated.

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Speaker 1: The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories

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Speaker 1: from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw

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Speaker 1: and honest, just like the people I talk to. Some

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Speaker 1: of the content and language might be confronting. That's because

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Speaker 1: no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged.

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Speaker 1: Join me now as I take you into this world.

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Speaker 1: Welcome back to part two of my chat. We've retired

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Speaker 1: magistrate David Helper. Now, if you listen to part one,

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Speaker 1: you would have found David is probably not the type

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Speaker 1: of person who you would think occupied a magistrate's position

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Speaker 1: for over twenty years. In part two, David told me

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Speaker 1: about the time his family was relocated to a safe

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Speaker 1: house over concerns of retribution from a man who appeared

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Speaker 1: at his court. We get his surprising views on drug legislation.

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Speaker 1: And we also talked about the emotional and mental impact

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Speaker 1: of someone in a judicial position. I think this is

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Speaker 1: something most of us had not considered, but David really

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Speaker 1: opened up about it. We also talked about sovereign citizens

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Speaker 1: and how AI might change the face of our legal system.

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Speaker 1: It was a great chat. David. Welcome back to part

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Speaker 1: two of I Catchkillers.

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Speaker 2: Thanks.

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Speaker 1: Thanks, that's a bit underwhelming. Thanks well.

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Speaker 2: I enjoyed the first half, so I hope the second

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Speaker 2: half is as good.

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Speaker 1: Great local courts. We were talking during the break that

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Speaker 1: you see all aspects of life, and the good, the bad,

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Speaker 1: the ugly literally come through the local courts and you

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Speaker 1: see some humor and there's you see some humanity. You

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Speaker 1: see every aspect of life. Any funny things happened to

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Speaker 1: you when you're on the bench.

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Speaker 2: Looks so many that I'm sure I could bore your

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Speaker 2: audience for dat. But I did sentence somebody who refused

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Speaker 2: to stand up, and I said stand up, please, and

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Speaker 2: he didn't, and I said, come on, stand up, this

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Speaker 2: is serious. And then I realized he was in a wheelchair.

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Speaker 2: That was not a good look.

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Speaker 1: That's embarrassing.

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Speaker 2: But another guy I refused bail too, and you know,

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Speaker 2: as he was being led out of court very unhappy,

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Speaker 2: he goes to me, oh, you fat cunt, and said,

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Speaker 2: did you call me fat? And fortunately he laughed. I

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Speaker 2: laughed and we left it at that. But you know,

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Speaker 2: court is a funny place. It's tense, and so anything

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Speaker 2: that breaks the ice can be really very funny, even

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Speaker 2: though it's not so funny outside court.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and there's a certain sharpness and a wit that

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Speaker 1: comes with the type of people in court. And I'm

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Speaker 1: not just talking the legal for there. Some of the

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Speaker 1: defendants come before the court, some of the comments that

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Speaker 1: they make are quite hilarious.

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Speaker 2: And you know, there's language that they don't understand, like

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Speaker 2: a defense low will often call prosecutor on my friend

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Speaker 2: or my learned friend or my very learned friend. And

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Speaker 2: half the time you see the defendants and sometimes they

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Speaker 2: jump up and go, I'm not staying here is your friends,

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Speaker 2: you know, and you just think, well, you know, what

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Speaker 2: hope is there?

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Speaker 1: Yeah? Well, I think in that environment you've got to

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Speaker 1: be able to laugh where you can. It's a little

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Speaker 1: bit hard when you're sitting there as a magistrate that

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Speaker 1: sees you when you're sitting in at the back of

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Speaker 1: the court.

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Speaker 2: But yeah, and it's even worse when everyone in front

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Speaker 2: of you starts laughing and you've got to keep it

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Speaker 2: straight face. Yeah, you just learn to be a good actor.

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Speaker 1: And I also and no, I don't want you to

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Speaker 1: acknowledge this. I can say it from my position when

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Speaker 1: I'm sitting in the gallery. Some court matters can be

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Speaker 1: very dry and very long, and it might be after

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Speaker 1: lunch and it's been a long day and you start

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Speaker 1: to start the nod off or your mind drift somewhere else.

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Speaker 1: There's a lot of concentration that's required as a magistrate.

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Speaker 1: Now I'm always gobsmacked by I could have worked on

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Speaker 1: a brief, not just magistrates, with judges as well, for

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Speaker 1: a long time, intricate briefs. It's taken to the court,

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Speaker 1: it's been explained once to the person sitting on the bench,

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Speaker 1: and they seem the grasp of the concept. There's a

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Speaker 1: real skill to be able to pick up what's important.

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Speaker 2: As hard as it is to believe, I actually found

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Speaker 2: it quite a relief because the vast majority of judging

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Speaker 2: is actually listening. Yeah, you know, and you do get

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Speaker 2: better at it over time and there's very little after

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Speaker 2: ten or fifteen or twenty years, there's not that much

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Speaker 2: that's new that you haven't seen before and that you

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Speaker 2: can't pick up pretty quickly. But good lawyers, good lawyers

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Speaker 2: make for good cases. And you know, good lawyers and

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Speaker 2: never boring. They may be thorough, but they're always they

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Speaker 2: always explaining things in short bites that you can comprehend

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Speaker 2: and that really give a good grasp on the case.

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Speaker 2: And that's why if you've got really excellent lawyers and

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Speaker 2: prosecutors in front of you, then cases run smoothly.

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Speaker 1: It makes sense. Did you find that your skills improved,

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Speaker 1: like your skills your experience and that did you think

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Speaker 1: you're a better magistrate towards the latter part of your

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Speaker 1: career or when you've got like over a decade of experience?

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Speaker 1: Was it something a job that you continually learn.

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Speaker 2: On absolutely every day was learning experience? And I think

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Speaker 2: those who stopped learning stopped being good at what they're doing.

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Speaker 2: And look, I'm sure you found that in policing too,

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Speaker 2: and probably in podcast making or me now being back

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Speaker 2: at the university. Every day's a learning experience. But certainly

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Speaker 2: I think the other thing is is that what I

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Speaker 2: got much better at was recognizing that people weren't with

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Speaker 2: some exceptions, people weren't generally good or bad. Their behavior

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Speaker 2: was good or bad. And once I drew that distinction,

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Speaker 2: which took quite a few years to get to, it

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Speaker 2: really started to dawn on me that we're dealing with

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Speaker 2: whole humans, some of whom are behaving badly, but that

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Speaker 2: doesn't make them bad people. And keeping that in and

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Speaker 2: you know, you could see that both in victims and perpetrators,

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Speaker 2: in witnesses, in police and it really helped me. But

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Speaker 2: I did get better at it. I think over time,

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Speaker 2: certainly I was calmer.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I would imagine that you're confident, and you've seen

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Speaker 1: something like this before, you know how to deal with it.

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Speaker 1: What you said about someone does something bad doesn't make

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Speaker 1: them a bad person. I work very closely with doctor

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Speaker 1: Sarah ull A forensic psychologists in homicide, and she and

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Speaker 1: I valued her opinion on some really interesting, tough, tough cases.

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Speaker 1: And she was great to work with because she'd be

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Speaker 1: looking at things from a slightly different perspective than the

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Speaker 1: looking through it from the police lens. But she was

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Speaker 1: always at pain saying to me, Gary, just because someone's

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Speaker 1: done something bad doesn't make them a bad person. And

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Speaker 1: I've really come to accept that as you found out

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Speaker 1: that we all make mistakes in life, and you know,

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Speaker 1: it's what you've done before then what you do after

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Speaker 1: it that doesn't sort of define you. And I think

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Speaker 1: it's a good thing to hang on to when you,

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Speaker 1: especially in your role when you're judging people, to be

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Speaker 1: able to see that people but not necessarily bad. They've

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Speaker 1: made a mistake, as we all do at some stage

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Speaker 1: in our life.

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Speaker 2: And as part of sentencing, would I would say that,

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Speaker 2: I would say, you know clearly, you know from reading

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Speaker 2: all the submissions your family care and love for you,

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Speaker 2: as do many members of the community have written on

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Speaker 2: your behalf. On the other hand, what you've done is

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Speaker 2: behavior that's completely unacceptable in our community, and you have

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Speaker 2: to be punished for it, both for you and for

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Speaker 2: all of society and for the victims. But people would

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Speaker 2: if if you approach people like that, you know, for

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Speaker 2: a judicial officer to say to someone you're a bad

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Speaker 2: person and you're evil, it takes away it robs them

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Speaker 2: of an ability to reform and rehabilitate, I think, or

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Speaker 2: it makes it much harder for them. Of course, there's

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Speaker 2: some exceptions, and I did deal with some people who

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Speaker 2: I would describe as really pathologically evil, not many, but some.

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Speaker 2: Did you come across some like that as well?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, most definitely. There's some people that are in jail

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Speaker 1: for the rest of their lives that I was involved in,

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Speaker 1: and I'm more than happy. I know the evil side

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Speaker 1: that those people, and you're not going to change them.

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Speaker 1: But there are other people and people thought as a

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Speaker 1: homicide detective, like everyone that you locked up must have

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Speaker 1: been a terrible human being. No, yeah, yes, done a

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Speaker 1: terrible thing, and there's you know, in the scale of things,

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Speaker 1: there's not much worse than murder. But some of the

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Speaker 1: people have made a mistake, a huge, huge mistake, and

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Speaker 1: the consequences have been devastating, But doesn't make them that

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Speaker 1: evil person. There is pure evil. That's my take on that.

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Speaker 1: Other people might have different opinions, but I think it

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Speaker 1: would be supported with research. There's some people that just

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Speaker 1: inherently evil and society does need to be protected from them.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. Absolutely. I dealt with one case and when it

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Speaker 2: went to the district court, he got forty eight years.

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Speaker 2: That's what he said to what he did to his daughters,

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Speaker 2: and you know, I'm glad. I'm glad he's behind bars

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Speaker 2: until after his death. For sure.

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Speaker 1: Well, I'm assuming there that it must be a child's

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Speaker 1: sexual abuse. And indeed, the thing that about that offense

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Speaker 1: that separates it from a lot of others is that

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Speaker 1: children should be protected, that there is no mitigating circumstances

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Speaker 1: for a child to be sexually assaulted. And also the

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Speaker 1: level of planning and the reoffending and the ongoing offending.

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Speaker 1: That's not like a one punch situation of about the

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Speaker 1: side of the local club in an argument. This is

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Speaker 1: people that have deliberately decided to do this and then

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Speaker 1: do it again and again.

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Speaker 2: And yeah, and I think there's a cost in the

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Speaker 2: criminal justice system. And of course I'm not taking away

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Speaker 2: from the harm to the victims and the victims family,

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Speaker 2: but the investigating police, the magistrates and judges, the jurors,

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Speaker 2: the witnesses, for everyone. It's an incredibly grueling experience. I mean,

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Speaker 2: it's at least in homicide, they're either dead or they're not.

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Speaker 1: I know what you're saying.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and you know that that whole process is incredibly

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Speaker 2: damaging for people. I'm sure we've all seen it in

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Speaker 2: our careers, people who are so harmed, not by their

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Speaker 2: involvement in those cases.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, And I like there's pressure on the homicide when

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Speaker 1: leading investigations, and the rare occasion that you're looking for

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Speaker 1: a serial killer or a contract killer, you know that

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Speaker 1: it's consequences you don't bring that person to justice. But

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Speaker 1: the pressure on the investigators in sex crimes, especially child protection.

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Speaker 1: Please you get a report of that. And you know,

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Speaker 1: if I don't move on this straight away, maybe the

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Speaker 1: child's going to be assaulted again. There's a lot of

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Speaker 1: pressure there. It brings me I jumping forward. But we

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Speaker 1: can go back to what we're talking about. You write

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Speaker 1: a paper on lifting the judicial veil, Vicarious Trauma PTSD

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Speaker 1: and the judiciary. A personal story. I bought some quotes

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Speaker 1: out there because we're talking about the impact of child

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Speaker 1: sexual abuse and this is an extract from your experience.

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Speaker 1: I'll read it out and I'll get you get you

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Speaker 1: to comment on it. About twelve years ago, I was

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Speaker 1: sitting in a series of cases involving child pornography in

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Speaker 1: Bateman's Bay. In those days, it was necessary for the

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Speaker 1: courts to view the pictures and the videos to determine

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Speaker 1: the seriousness of the charges. Fortunately, that is far less

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Speaker 1: often today due to computer classification. As is regular the case,

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Speaker 1: the charges include thousands and sometimes tens of thousands of

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Speaker 1: images and hundreds of videos. I'll not retraumatize all of

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Speaker 1: us or revictimize the victims by describing the images. That's

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Speaker 1: pretty heavy. And I think from there you've read on

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Speaker 1: a quote by the Chief Magistrate and Police versus Power,

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Speaker 1: who describes what you described there. To see the pale

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Speaker 1: death of innocence and the trust in the eyes of

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Speaker 1: so many young children is to bemoan the capacity of

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Speaker 1: some members of the human race to descend into the

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Speaker 1: dark and depraved side of the human condition. I pulled

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Speaker 1: both those quotes out because I thought that at some

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Speaker 1: point in time we would talk about that. But that

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Speaker 1: is that is really what we're talking about. The heaviness

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Speaker 1: of what you.

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Speaker 2: See, absolutely, and let's keep in mind who Power was.

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Speaker 2: It was Patrick Power, who was the Deputy DPP for

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Speaker 2: the state of New South Wales who was charged with

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Speaker 2: possession of that child pornography.

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Speaker 1: Right.

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Speaker 2: He was working as a Deputy DPP of New South

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Speaker 2: Wales and his computer needed some repairs. He sent it

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Speaker 2: in and they discovered a cash of child pornography material there.

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Speaker 2: They then conducted an investigation obviously searched his home and

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Speaker 2: the like, and found more. He pleaded guilty and was

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Speaker 2: sentenced to a term of imprisonment several years imprisonment, and

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Speaker 2: obviously that was the end of his career. That was

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Speaker 2: the case that I was quoting from, which is extraordinary

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Speaker 2: for a whole set of other reasons that we could

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Speaker 2: talk about.

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Speaker 1: Well, I didn't pick it up. He prosecuted the murder

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Speaker 1: trial I was involved in. I knew him well, and

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Speaker 1: I was disgusted and shocked when I heard of what

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Speaker 1: happened there.

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Speaker 2: So the reaction for me of having to deal with

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Speaker 2: it that nest of cases was really horrific. I couldn't

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Speaker 2: get the images out of my head and as a result,

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Speaker 2: you know, I really went through a very difficult mental time.

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Speaker 2: And again I don't you know, there's police who have

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Speaker 2: to classify this every day, and of course these are

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Speaker 2: real children who are being filmed. So I don't want

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Speaker 2: to take away from a moment the horror of the victims.

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Speaker 2: But the price of that of needing to deal with

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Speaker 2: that material for me was really high. I found it

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Speaker 2: very difficult to sleep. I had nightmares with those recurring images,

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Speaker 2: and it became very difficult for me to do my job.

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Speaker 2: I'm not ashamed of that at all. In fact, you'd

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Speaker 2: think it's a sign of humanity that you can't cope

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Speaker 2: with that sort of stuff. And clearly I thought I

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Speaker 2: was terrifically resilient. In the first few cases I did

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Speaker 2: didn't affect me. But it's a bit like a sponge,

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Speaker 2: and over time that sponge got full, and you know,

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Speaker 2: I realized that I had choices, so I could either

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Speaker 2: stop doing cases like that or get some help.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and as a magistrate, you've got help. You've got

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Speaker 1: professional help there to I did.

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Speaker 2: I find the Chief Magistrate and said, I'm not coping

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Speaker 2: with these cases. I explained what was happening to me,

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Speaker 2: and so delight, you know, pleased that my colleagues, you know,

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Speaker 2: I spoke to them and they said, well, you just

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Speaker 2: don't do those cases for I will swap. And I

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Speaker 2: did spent twelve eighteen months not doing those cases, getting

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Speaker 2: some professional help, getting some therapy and talk therapy about it,

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Speaker 2: and it really helped. And coincidentally, during that time, a

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Speaker 2: lot of the computer classification came in and rarely after

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Speaker 2: that did I need to certainly not look at the

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Speaker 2: same numbers of pictures. But you know, I think it's

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Speaker 2: the price. One of the prices that people don't talk

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Speaker 2: about or even think about of doing that kind of

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Speaker 2: work is that it can have a really significant impact

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Speaker 2: deep down.

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Speaker 1: It can take a time, but the fact that you

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Speaker 1: put your hand up and addressed it and then could

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Speaker 1: move forward from I think a lot of people, and

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Speaker 1: I'm talking more so with police because they understand that

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Speaker 1: world more. A lot of people don't put their hand

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Speaker 1: up until it's too late, and yeah, if they got

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Speaker 1: just acknowledge, Okay, let me step away from this a

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Speaker 1: little bit. I need to break from this type of work.

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Speaker 2: Well, in the last few years we've had two magistrates

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Speaker 2: in Victoria kill themselves and one family court judge in

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Speaker 2: Queensland to kill himself. So you know, there's and of

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Speaker 2: course we know about the rates of police suicide and

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Speaker 2: suicide and the legal profession and is it any wonder

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Speaker 2: when you're dealing with that kind of pressure and that

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Speaker 2: kind of crime.

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Speaker 1: And it is a dark world, and as we talked

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Speaker 1: about in part one, you are isolated as a magistrate,

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Speaker 1: Like even in policing, we see some horrific things, but

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Speaker 1: you could share it with the team because invariably there's

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Speaker 1: people that have experienced it. As a magistrate, you sit there,

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Speaker 1: sit there on your own and confronted with all this.

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Speaker 2: And you're meant to be above it all. You're meant

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Speaker 2: to be Cupucantan and not affected by it.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, I think it says a lot because you

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Speaker 1: would have heard it, and we all hear it with

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Speaker 1: the shock jocks and the headlines in the paper about judges.

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Speaker 1: If this happened to if this happened to their loved one,

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Speaker 1: they'd give the person the harder sentence. I think sitting down,

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Speaker 1: having a chat with you and giving it the exposure

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Speaker 1: to our audience and listeners allow them to understand that

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Speaker 1: there is a human sitting there. Quite often you're just

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Speaker 1: this character that sitting on the bench and we don't

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Speaker 1: think about that you've got emotions. You're just the magistrate

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Speaker 1: or the judge. So I think it's good that we

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Speaker 1: talk about it and there is an impact.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and you realize that there's discretion. I mean, when

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Speaker 2: you're sentencing someone, you've got discretion from the very minor

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Speaker 2: penalties to the maximum penalties, and where you drop that line,

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Speaker 2: of course, is to do with precedent and what high

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Speaker 2: courts are said, what the lawyers say before you and

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Speaker 2: point out what's an appropriate sentence. But you also carry

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Speaker 2: your own baggage. And there weren't many chop pornography offenders

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Speaker 2: who left mich court without getting really long jail sentences

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Speaker 2: because of my abhorrence for the crime.

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Speaker 1: Well, I think we had a brief discussion about it

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Speaker 1: the other day, but I was surprised about the amount

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Speaker 1: of people in prison that had been sexually assaulted as

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Speaker 1: children and the trajectory that took them on their life

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Speaker 1: from that point in time. And when we talk about

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Speaker 1: reducing crime, and we talked about other ways of preventing

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Speaker 1: crime from happening, I think we need to have a

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Speaker 1: real hard look at child sex offenders and the impact

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Speaker 1: that they have on society. Because the amount of people

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Speaker 1: in prison that have been sexually abused as children that

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Speaker 1: might necessitate them going into prison, but it's the way

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Speaker 1: they live their life with a risk they might become

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Speaker 1: drug dependent sorts of things because it disrupts their life.

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Speaker 1: We're really got to look at going as hard as

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Speaker 1: we can on it, and I don't think there would

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Speaker 1: be many people that would argue against it.

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Speaker 2: I think that's true, and I think the other aspect

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Speaker 2: is the harm that's done to children by witnessing domestic violence.

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Speaker 2: You know, over the years, I realized that young people

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Speaker 2: who came before me had a lot of things differences,

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Speaker 2: but a lot of things in common. And one of

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Speaker 2: the really common features of young young criminals, kids who

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Speaker 2: are committing crimes, who were all concerned about increases in crimes,

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Speaker 2: and particularly young people, but one thing they all or

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Speaker 2: almost all had in common was that they had witnessed crime,

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Speaker 2: They had witnessed violence in their homes. And you know,

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Speaker 2: there's a price to pay for the kinds of violence

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Speaker 2: that is perpetrated on children, all perpetrated around children, and

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Speaker 2: it's a big price.

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Speaker 1: That's interesting. Certainly clearly understand what you're saying there, and

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Speaker 1: I'm just processing in my mind, But that environment that

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Speaker 1: those formative views as a child growing up, if you're

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Speaker 1: in a safe environment, that sets you on a pathway

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Speaker 1: that you're given your best chance of making the most

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Speaker 1: of the life. If you've grown up in a violent

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Speaker 1: household with domestic violence going on. I can see the

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Speaker 1: problems that that could create, but you actually recognize it

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Speaker 1: and saw that in all the years that you were

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Speaker 1: on the bench and people that were coming before you.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's I think I better do some research on it.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, well, there you go, there's the next paper. We'll

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Speaker 1: bring you. We'll bring you back. How long were you

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Speaker 1: taken the whole three years?

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Speaker 2: It'll take me a little.

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Speaker 1: We'll book you in domestic violence. There's a lot of

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Speaker 1: talk about it across the country, not just New South Wales,

380
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Speaker 1: and how we really need to get a handle on

381
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Speaker 1: it and the end result where partners, invariably female partners

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Speaker 1: are taken to the conclusion where they've been murdered. How

383
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Speaker 1: did you deal with domestic violence situations in the court,

384
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Speaker 1: because in the local court and in the areas that

385
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Speaker 1: you presided in, I would imagine that a lot of

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Speaker 1: your casework would have been avios and domestic violence situations.

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Speaker 2: Absolutely, And it's not the most glamorous work for police either,

388
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Speaker 2: you know, And it's frustrating. So often victims would get

389
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Speaker 2: into the witness box and I can't remember I fell over,

390
00:21:24,280 --> 00:21:27,560
Speaker 2: I was drunk. I don't know what happened. But you know,

391
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Speaker 2: at one time in Grafton Local Court a woman her

392
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Speaker 2: partner had been charged with beating her on several occasions,

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Speaker 2: and I think it was about the fourth or fifth

394
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Speaker 2: time she got in the witness box and we're all

395
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Speaker 2: expecting the same again, and I saw the defeated look

396
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Speaker 2: on the arresting officer's faces, saying here we go, and

397
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Speaker 2: she said he hit me, and we all were just staggered.

398
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Speaker 2: It took five times, five lots of great police work, patience,

399
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Speaker 2: making a safe environment, and eventually she'd had enough. And

400
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Speaker 2: it was a real lesson to me that there's a

401
00:22:00,600 --> 00:22:04,359
Speaker 2: power in just bringing people to court. The outcome doesn't

402
00:22:04,400 --> 00:22:09,160
Speaker 2: matter so much as getting people protected as much as possible,

403
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Speaker 2: but it really is. I don't know if there's been

404
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Speaker 2: an increase in domestic violence or there's just been an

405
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Speaker 2: increase in the recognition that it's a crime.

406
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Speaker 1: The awareness of it, the willingness to report it.

407
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Speaker 2: But the fact that the police now are starting to

408
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Speaker 2: I think only now really take it seriously as serious

409
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Speaker 2: as some of the less serious crimes is a terrific thing.

410
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Speaker 2: And I think it's a cultural shift that we just

411
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Speaker 2: need to continue. I had recently went to a domestic

412
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Speaker 2: violence specialist court in Queensland to have a look at

413
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Speaker 2: how they're operating, just to find, you know, really terrific

414
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Speaker 2: thing where people feel safe, where justice is done, where

415
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Speaker 2: the emphasis is not so much on well lock them up,

416
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Speaker 2: but on how we're going to change the behavior in

417
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Speaker 2: this family and by this man, and you know, really

418
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Speaker 2: successful programs and you know, I've got a lot of

419
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Speaker 2: hope for change, but I don't think we need We

420
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Speaker 2: can possibly underestimate the seriousness of the problem.

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Speaker 1: I think part of and police are more aware of

422
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Speaker 1: it because we've had some horrific situations where people looked

423
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Speaker 1: at it and we've got to have this get a

424
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Speaker 1: handle of this type of crime. But I think there's

425
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Speaker 1: more accountability now like we can't. You know, when you

426
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Speaker 1: look and sadly, quite often you see a murder and

427
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Speaker 1: you look back and there's all these red flags. And

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Speaker 1: we had an expert a criminologists from overseas and described

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Speaker 1: as murdered by slaveh motion where a domestic situation there's

430
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Speaker 1: been for falling out and I can't remember the percentages,

431
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Speaker 1: but it was quite frightening that if you've been in

432
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Speaker 1: a domestic situation and your partner has threatened to key you.

433
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Speaker 1: When we're talking to men kill a woman, the likelihood

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Speaker 1: of that occurring the ridiculous percentage. We've got to acknowledge

435
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Speaker 1: that domestic violence is a red flag and indicator that

436
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Speaker 1: something much worse can.

437
00:24:00,200 --> 00:24:04,440
Speaker 2: Happen totally, and you know, the hardest decisions I think

438
00:24:04,480 --> 00:24:07,240
Speaker 2: that courts have to make is bail. You know, if

439
00:24:07,280 --> 00:24:10,119
Speaker 2: people are found guilty or they plead guilty. Sentencing is

440
00:24:10,200 --> 00:24:13,560
Speaker 2: relatively easy, but bail is the first time. And of

441
00:24:13,600 --> 00:24:17,560
Speaker 2: course we're all aware that there's situations where there's false allegations.

442
00:24:17,560 --> 00:24:20,800
Speaker 2: We're aware that people are innocent until they're proven guilty.

443
00:24:21,240 --> 00:24:23,760
Speaker 2: But if you locked up every man where a threat

444
00:24:23,840 --> 00:24:27,360
Speaker 2: was alleged, well, the jug you couldn't do it. So

445
00:24:27,720 --> 00:24:31,399
Speaker 2: it's really tough, tough call. And I think every magistrate

446
00:24:31,560 --> 00:24:35,040
Speaker 2: in Australia, every judge will have released someone on bail

447
00:24:35,080 --> 00:24:38,040
Speaker 2: who then commits an offense. Has refused people bail who

448
00:24:38,119 --> 00:24:41,800
Speaker 2: end up being found not guilty. It's a net loss

449
00:24:41,840 --> 00:24:44,040
Speaker 2: game and you can only do your best.

450
00:24:44,680 --> 00:24:46,920
Speaker 1: It's a tough one. I want to thry this out

451
00:24:46,960 --> 00:24:50,320
Speaker 1: because it's just something that in my simple mind it

452
00:24:50,320 --> 00:24:53,959
Speaker 1: seems like a simple solution, and I saw that. It

453
00:24:54,040 --> 00:24:56,160
Speaker 1: came to me when I was speaking to Hannah Clark's

454
00:24:56,200 --> 00:25:00,159
Speaker 1: parents that I know you're met, and talking about the

455
00:25:00,280 --> 00:25:03,440
Speaker 1: lead up to before Hannah and the three children were murdered,

456
00:25:03,560 --> 00:25:06,680
Speaker 1: and the fact that she was living in fear. There

457
00:25:06,760 --> 00:25:11,640
Speaker 1: was concerns. We talk hypothetically, so it's not Hannah's situation,

458
00:25:11,760 --> 00:25:17,240
Speaker 1: but hypothetically man and woman in a relationship. There's domestic

459
00:25:17,440 --> 00:25:22,280
Speaker 1: accusations of an assault, the person's perhaps charge on that

460
00:25:22,440 --> 00:25:27,439
Speaker 1: AVOs are taken out if they breached that AVO once.

461
00:25:28,359 --> 00:25:32,600
Speaker 1: Why can't we bring in I'm talking Angril bracelets, electronic

462
00:25:33,000 --> 00:25:36,240
Speaker 1: monitoring of people. Now. I've raised it a couple of

463
00:25:36,240 --> 00:25:38,560
Speaker 1: times and people said, well, the costing of it, we

464
00:25:38,560 --> 00:25:41,280
Speaker 1: haven't got the technology. Well, when we're going through COVID,

465
00:25:41,680 --> 00:25:44,240
Speaker 1: we knew where everyone, we knew how a bloke went

466
00:25:44,320 --> 00:25:47,159
Speaker 1: to ten different stores to buy a barbecue. You know,

467
00:25:48,440 --> 00:25:52,240
Speaker 1: we can track people. I raised this with Hannah's parents

468
00:25:52,240 --> 00:25:55,960
Speaker 1: and said, would you have felt more safe if the offender,

469
00:25:56,720 --> 00:25:59,920
Speaker 1: if he came within a five kilometer radius of Hannah,

470
00:26:00,080 --> 00:26:02,440
Speaker 1: she would have been notified because she was limiting fear,

471
00:26:03,320 --> 00:26:05,960
Speaker 1: And they said most definitely, most definitely that would have

472
00:26:06,000 --> 00:26:08,879
Speaker 1: given her comfort. And if she knew that he was

473
00:26:08,960 --> 00:26:13,120
Speaker 1: within five kilometers of her location, she would take certain action.

474
00:26:13,800 --> 00:26:16,040
Speaker 1: And then the naysayers say, but they could cut the

475
00:26:16,040 --> 00:26:18,840
Speaker 1: ankle bracelet off. Well, if they cut the ankle bracelet off,

476
00:26:19,600 --> 00:26:23,439
Speaker 1: the potential victim gets notified. I see it as a

477
00:26:23,480 --> 00:26:28,720
Speaker 1: way of a compromise between, as you identified, sending everyone

478
00:26:28,760 --> 00:26:31,359
Speaker 1: that's in breach to jail because the Giles just couldn't

479
00:26:31,400 --> 00:26:36,119
Speaker 1: deal with it, and protecting the victim and for the accused,

480
00:26:37,040 --> 00:26:40,359
Speaker 1: why do I have to walk around with an ankle braceleon? Well,

481
00:26:40,520 --> 00:26:42,960
Speaker 1: you were given the chance, you failed in that chance,

482
00:26:43,040 --> 00:26:45,480
Speaker 1: and this is the next alternative. If you've breached it again,

483
00:26:45,560 --> 00:26:48,280
Speaker 1: then you go into custody. Am I looking at things

484
00:26:48,280 --> 00:26:50,080
Speaker 1: too simplistically? No?

485
00:26:50,400 --> 00:26:52,160
Speaker 2: I don't think so at all. And I think it's

486
00:26:53,359 --> 00:26:55,560
Speaker 2: and it doesn't have to be an ankle bracelet these days.

487
00:26:55,560 --> 00:26:57,480
Speaker 2: I mean, we can all we can all find our phones,

488
00:26:57,520 --> 00:27:02,720
Speaker 2: we'll find my and you know, this technology exists, it's

489
00:27:02,800 --> 00:27:05,120
Speaker 2: there and that's where it should belong. I often think

490
00:27:05,119 --> 00:27:10,240
Speaker 2: the fanciest technology seems to be stuck on offenses like

491
00:27:10,920 --> 00:27:13,639
Speaker 2: major drug crimes and things like that. You know, the

492
00:27:13,680 --> 00:27:16,800
Speaker 2: Australian Federal Police seem to have every single gizmo known

493
00:27:17,080 --> 00:27:20,880
Speaker 2: humanity and investigating importation of drugs. If we put that

494
00:27:21,000 --> 00:27:25,479
Speaker 2: same effort, technology and money into domestic violence offenses, and

495
00:27:25,520 --> 00:27:30,200
Speaker 2: you're right, the geographic separation of people does two things.

496
00:27:30,240 --> 00:27:33,440
Speaker 2: Of course, it protects the victim, but it also protects

497
00:27:33,480 --> 00:27:38,520
Speaker 2: the perpetrator from unfair or unrealistic allegations because we know

498
00:27:38,680 --> 00:27:41,919
Speaker 2: where they are and if it's false, it's clearly false.

499
00:27:42,440 --> 00:27:46,840
Speaker 2: So it's absolutely win win, and there should be much

500
00:27:46,960 --> 00:27:47,640
Speaker 2: much more.

501
00:27:47,640 --> 00:27:51,080
Speaker 1: And the technology and you know, I'm speaking out of

502
00:27:51,080 --> 00:27:53,960
Speaker 1: my era of expertise, but I'm sure the technology is

503
00:27:54,000 --> 00:27:56,520
Speaker 1: available to set that in place, and I think that

504
00:27:57,600 --> 00:28:02,719
Speaker 1: will give that separation because we really have got to

505
00:28:02,760 --> 00:28:05,560
Speaker 1: make a difference in it because it's happening too much.

506
00:28:06,080 --> 00:28:09,679
Speaker 1: There's a quote that you talked about the role of

507
00:28:09,720 --> 00:28:12,720
Speaker 1: a magistrate, and I think it sort of will get

508
00:28:12,760 --> 00:28:16,639
Speaker 1: you to discuss it from there. A magistrate cannot stop

509
00:28:16,680 --> 00:28:19,920
Speaker 1: domestic violence or alcoholism or turn around the economy of

510
00:28:20,040 --> 00:28:22,879
Speaker 1: dyeing towns. What we can do is ensure that the

511
00:28:22,960 --> 00:28:26,520
Speaker 1: law is upheld and that there is humanity and consideration

512
00:28:26,640 --> 00:28:29,280
Speaker 1: in its application. Do you just want to expand on

513
00:28:29,960 --> 00:28:31,760
Speaker 1: what was meant there? Yeah.

514
00:28:31,880 --> 00:28:35,919
Speaker 2: Look, the sense of sitting in rural and regional New

515
00:28:35,960 --> 00:28:38,600
Speaker 2: South Wales is often a fairly depressing thing. As you

516
00:28:38,640 --> 00:28:42,080
Speaker 2: see these towns that were once boyant, they're in economic decline.

517
00:28:42,080 --> 00:28:45,960
Speaker 2: Often all that's left is the ragtag army of original

518
00:28:45,960 --> 00:28:49,760
Speaker 2: inhabitants or older people and a lot of disaffected young people.

519
00:28:49,760 --> 00:28:51,959
Speaker 2: They don't have the services, they don't have the medical

520
00:28:52,040 --> 00:28:55,719
Speaker 2: or mental health or educational services that other places have.

521
00:28:56,880 --> 00:28:59,880
Speaker 2: But the biggest injustice occurs when people aren't listened to.

522
00:29:00,560 --> 00:29:02,800
Speaker 2: And I found that the smaller the town and the

523
00:29:02,840 --> 00:29:06,880
Speaker 2: more you know, the tougher the regional environment, the more

524
00:29:06,920 --> 00:29:09,640
Speaker 2: time you took, the better justice was served. People have

525
00:29:09,720 --> 00:29:12,960
Speaker 2: a story that they want to tell. And you know,

526
00:29:13,000 --> 00:29:15,680
Speaker 2: the worst thing I've seen in court when I was

527
00:29:15,720 --> 00:29:19,360
Speaker 2: a lawyer and since is when magistrates just cut everyone

528
00:29:19,400 --> 00:29:21,880
Speaker 2: off and just you know, don't allow people to have

529
00:29:21,920 --> 00:29:25,400
Speaker 2: their say, win, lose or draw. If people manage to

530
00:29:25,400 --> 00:29:27,720
Speaker 2: have their say, they feel that justice has been done,

531
00:29:27,720 --> 00:29:30,120
Speaker 2: whether they're believed or not. If justice is seemed to

532
00:29:30,160 --> 00:29:33,640
Speaker 2: be done, people will leave court not happy, but not

533
00:29:33,720 --> 00:29:38,400
Speaker 2: begrudging the entire system. And I think it's really important

534
00:29:38,480 --> 00:29:41,000
Speaker 2: to show that it takes a bit of time, takes

535
00:29:41,040 --> 00:29:43,880
Speaker 2: a bit longer, you might get home as early, but

536
00:29:44,840 --> 00:29:47,120
Speaker 2: in the end justice is done.

537
00:29:47,600 --> 00:29:50,320
Speaker 1: Well saying that your day in court, you'll get your

538
00:29:50,400 --> 00:29:52,880
Speaker 1: day in court, I think that very much reflects what

539
00:29:53,360 --> 00:29:54,840
Speaker 1: you just said.

540
00:29:54,600 --> 00:29:59,000
Speaker 2: There absolutely and you know you see this particularly you

541
00:29:59,040 --> 00:30:01,719
Speaker 2: know in the masty court. As I said, there's no jury,

542
00:30:02,120 --> 00:30:04,040
Speaker 2: so you're not only the person who's doing the sentencing.

543
00:30:04,120 --> 00:30:06,240
Speaker 2: You're the person who's trying to determine the truth in

544
00:30:06,280 --> 00:30:10,080
Speaker 2: the situation. And that often means you believe one person

545
00:30:10,120 --> 00:30:13,200
Speaker 2: and don't believe the other. But if you explain why

546
00:30:13,280 --> 00:30:16,200
Speaker 2: you come to that conclusion that the man really did

547
00:30:16,280 --> 00:30:18,840
Speaker 2: beat his wife, that she was telling the truth because

548
00:30:18,880 --> 00:30:21,880
Speaker 2: of the bruises, or the immediacy of the complaint, or

549
00:30:21,880 --> 00:30:25,480
Speaker 2: his prior record or whatever. He may not be happy

550
00:30:25,520 --> 00:30:27,880
Speaker 2: with that decision, but as long as as long as

551
00:30:27,960 --> 00:30:30,720
Speaker 2: it's a process that is fair and open and he

552
00:30:30,760 --> 00:30:33,360
Speaker 2: gets a chance to have his say, well hopefully the

553
00:30:33,400 --> 00:30:34,400
Speaker 2: resentment will be less.

554
00:30:34,520 --> 00:30:39,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, understandable. Now, there was one defendant that you had

555
00:30:39,880 --> 00:30:43,360
Speaker 1: before you that he wasn't satisfied with the court, which

556
00:30:43,720 --> 00:30:48,239
Speaker 1: resulted in you having to relocate your family. Do you

557
00:30:48,480 --> 00:30:49,960
Speaker 1: care to tell a story?

558
00:30:50,000 --> 00:30:54,400
Speaker 2: Because it was that was a family law dispute which

559
00:30:54,400 --> 00:30:56,400
Speaker 2: had been going on for a while, and this fellow

560
00:30:56,400 --> 00:30:59,280
Speaker 2: who was ex army, decided that he would go to

561
00:30:59,320 --> 00:31:01,400
Speaker 2: his ex wife's house while she was at work and

562
00:31:01,520 --> 00:31:04,440
Speaker 2: the children were at school, and he got the dog

563
00:31:04,480 --> 00:31:07,959
Speaker 2: and nail guned the dog to the front door. So

564
00:31:08,080 --> 00:31:13,360
Speaker 2: when the children came home, that's what they were confronted with.

565
00:31:13,880 --> 00:31:17,920
Speaker 2: He was arrested and I refused him bail because I

566
00:31:17,920 --> 00:31:21,680
Speaker 2: thought the crime was just so horrendous that he was

567
00:31:21,720 --> 00:31:24,880
Speaker 2: a real d I mean, anyone, there's this whole psychology

568
00:31:24,960 --> 00:31:27,240
Speaker 2: and you would know this better than me from homicide,

569
00:31:27,280 --> 00:31:30,360
Speaker 2: but harm to animals is a really is a in

570
00:31:30,400 --> 00:31:34,400
Speaker 2: the red flag. Definitely, I refused him bail. In their wisdom,

571
00:31:34,440 --> 00:31:36,880
Speaker 2: the Supreme Court granted him bail. And his response to

572
00:31:36,960 --> 00:31:39,360
Speaker 2: that he didn't like me much, was to plant a

573
00:31:39,360 --> 00:31:42,680
Speaker 2: bomb at the courthouse on the gas tank on a

574
00:31:42,720 --> 00:31:46,120
Speaker 2: sitting day. So that then led to the police rightly

575
00:31:46,160 --> 00:31:48,480
Speaker 2: saying in the sheriff's office and you know the security

576
00:31:48,520 --> 00:31:52,280
Speaker 2: apparatus that we get the protective officers relocating us to

577
00:31:52,360 --> 00:31:56,040
Speaker 2: a motel until he was caught, and you know, that's

578
00:31:56,200 --> 00:32:00,160
Speaker 2: obviously a chilling experience. I'm sure it happens to a

579
00:32:00,200 --> 00:32:02,320
Speaker 2: lot of people in the community, but it also gives

580
00:32:02,320 --> 00:32:04,239
Speaker 2: you a taste of what it's like to be to

581
00:32:04,240 --> 00:32:05,160
Speaker 2: have to hide.

582
00:32:05,760 --> 00:32:08,120
Speaker 1: It's not good. It's not good if you're under threaten,

583
00:32:08,400 --> 00:32:12,719
Speaker 1: your family's under threaten, and especially in your red flag.

584
00:32:12,800 --> 00:32:15,240
Speaker 1: You know, someone that's prepared to commit a crime like

585
00:32:15,680 --> 00:32:18,760
Speaker 1: nailing the family pet to the front door, well that

586
00:32:19,280 --> 00:32:20,960
Speaker 1: tells me a great deal. And I don't think we

587
00:32:21,040 --> 00:32:24,520
Speaker 1: need to be psychologists or experts in the field to

588
00:32:24,560 --> 00:32:26,320
Speaker 1: know that that is a dangerous person.

589
00:32:26,960 --> 00:32:30,320
Speaker 2: And there's not many magistrates, not many judges who haven't

590
00:32:30,360 --> 00:32:34,840
Speaker 2: had stalkers, who haven't had threats, and you know, particularly

591
00:32:35,080 --> 00:32:39,680
Speaker 2: the Sovereign Citizen movement are very threatening often to judges

592
00:32:39,720 --> 00:32:44,080
Speaker 2: and magistrates. Desi Freeman sought to that's the fellows on

593
00:32:44,120 --> 00:32:49,280
Speaker 2: the run sought to arrest the magistrate who originally found

594
00:32:49,320 --> 00:32:51,240
Speaker 2: his decision that he didn't like, and then he sought

595
00:32:51,280 --> 00:32:54,680
Speaker 2: to arrest the Attorney General and others. And obviously there

596
00:32:54,720 --> 00:32:56,920
Speaker 2: would have been a fear factor, and that fear, as

597
00:32:56,960 --> 00:32:58,400
Speaker 2: we now know, was well found.

598
00:32:59,000 --> 00:33:03,160
Speaker 1: It's a worrying I find it worrying with this. It's

599
00:33:03,200 --> 00:33:08,880
Speaker 1: an ideology that in past times, a sovereign citizen, we

600
00:33:09,960 --> 00:33:12,760
Speaker 1: go back thirty years, come up on a show like

601
00:33:12,760 --> 00:33:17,440
Speaker 1: a Current Affairs, someone that's declared he's seceded from the country,

602
00:33:17,440 --> 00:33:19,520
Speaker 1: and we'd all have a laugh and think there's nothing

603
00:33:19,520 --> 00:33:22,200
Speaker 1: in it. My take on it. Now, we've been doing

604
00:33:22,240 --> 00:33:25,520
Speaker 1: a little bit on sovereign citizens and we've had actually

605
00:33:25,560 --> 00:33:28,160
Speaker 1: documents served on us from the sovereign citizens and they

606
00:33:28,160 --> 00:33:29,920
Speaker 1: want us to appear at the court and all that

607
00:33:30,040 --> 00:33:34,280
Speaker 1: sort of nonsense. But the danger of them now is

608
00:33:34,520 --> 00:33:39,680
Speaker 1: it's an ideology that is harmless in isolation, but then

609
00:33:39,760 --> 00:33:43,360
Speaker 1: they can connect in the social media world where people

610
00:33:43,480 --> 00:33:45,760
Speaker 1: they go down a rabbit hole and people are supporting

611
00:33:45,800 --> 00:33:49,720
Speaker 1: their views. So their radical view is that's what's skeet

612
00:33:49,880 --> 00:33:52,560
Speaker 1: fed back to them. And I see them as a

613
00:33:52,600 --> 00:33:56,080
Speaker 1: real risk. We had someone in and I'm not saying

614
00:33:56,120 --> 00:33:59,720
Speaker 1: sovereign citizen here, but just alone actor situation, someone fire

615
00:33:59,720 --> 00:34:02,640
Speaker 1: and show a couple of weeks ago in Sydney and

616
00:34:03,240 --> 00:34:06,960
Speaker 1: led off something like fifty shots. I see them as

617
00:34:07,000 --> 00:34:10,080
Speaker 1: the real danger of the future and sovereign citizens that

618
00:34:11,760 --> 00:34:13,959
Speaker 1: they're not something that we should laugh at we've got

619
00:34:14,120 --> 00:34:16,879
Speaker 1: as the two police officers down there. There are other

620
00:34:16,960 --> 00:34:20,440
Speaker 1: links with the police that were killed up in Queensland

621
00:34:20,600 --> 00:34:23,000
Speaker 1: that there was an ideology or a link with the

622
00:34:23,040 --> 00:34:27,080
Speaker 1: ideology of sovereign citizens. Have you had them before your

623
00:34:27,080 --> 00:34:28,880
Speaker 1: court at the preside over.

624
00:34:28,840 --> 00:34:31,240
Speaker 2: I've had them. I certainly had them a lot before

625
00:34:31,280 --> 00:34:33,759
Speaker 2: my court, particularly in the later years, and you know,

626
00:34:33,840 --> 00:34:36,759
Speaker 2: everybody reports there's been an exponential growth in those people

627
00:34:36,800 --> 00:34:40,080
Speaker 2: appearing before court, and since joining the university it's been

628
00:34:40,120 --> 00:34:43,359
Speaker 2: a area of focus of my research and publishing is

629
00:34:43,440 --> 00:34:45,640
Speaker 2: on the sovereign citizen movement. And it's hard to think

630
00:34:45,680 --> 00:34:49,640
Speaker 2: of any other ideology where four police have been killed

631
00:34:49,680 --> 00:34:54,000
Speaker 2: and yeah at least several injured as a result of

632
00:34:54,040 --> 00:34:56,720
Speaker 2: a set of common beliefs. I can't think of another

633
00:34:56,800 --> 00:35:00,520
Speaker 2: example in Australian recent history where that's occurred. So we

634
00:35:00,640 --> 00:35:05,320
Speaker 2: really are dealing with a dangerous edge and their numbers

635
00:35:05,360 --> 00:35:09,719
Speaker 2: are growing and the gobbledygook that they come out with

636
00:35:09,920 --> 00:35:12,840
Speaker 2: is just so crazy. And when they first appeared before

637
00:35:12,840 --> 00:35:15,359
Speaker 2: me in court, I just couldn't believe anyone would ever

638
00:35:15,400 --> 00:35:18,359
Speaker 2: spout such nonsense, you know. And when I say that,

639
00:35:18,800 --> 00:35:20,279
Speaker 2: I'm not laughing at them, but.

640
00:35:20,160 --> 00:35:23,960
Speaker 1: You're not ridiculing them, you're just saying you're completely wrong.

641
00:35:24,600 --> 00:35:27,000
Speaker 2: And they're not ill educated. A lot of these people,

642
00:35:27,000 --> 00:35:28,960
Speaker 2: they don't fit within the category of right wing or

643
00:35:29,040 --> 00:35:33,440
Speaker 2: left wing either. And certainly, sitting in Lismore, I had

644
00:35:33,440 --> 00:35:37,800
Speaker 2: a lot of, you know, people who were alternate healers

645
00:35:37,800 --> 00:35:41,279
Speaker 2: and the like who really follow sovereign citizenship as well.

646
00:35:41,360 --> 00:35:45,640
Speaker 2: So there really is a broad spectrum of people involved,

647
00:35:46,360 --> 00:35:51,320
Speaker 2: and it's extraordinary and it's dangerous, and they honestly believe

648
00:35:51,400 --> 00:35:54,319
Speaker 2: that the law doesn't apply to them. And when you think,

649
00:35:54,600 --> 00:35:57,600
Speaker 2: if you think that through logically, that the law doesn't

650
00:35:57,600 --> 00:35:59,920
Speaker 2: apply to them, of course they engage in risky and

651
00:36:00,080 --> 00:36:03,759
Speaker 2: dangerous behavior because they think that it doesn't apply to them.

652
00:36:03,800 --> 00:36:08,120
Speaker 2: They genuinely believe that, and that's a pretty dangerous starting

653
00:36:08,120 --> 00:36:12,719
Speaker 2: point from any law enforcement or judicial determination point of view.

654
00:36:13,040 --> 00:36:16,360
Speaker 1: It is dangerous and it can have impact, and you

655
00:36:16,440 --> 00:36:19,160
Speaker 1: see it from your role, and I understand the sort

656
00:36:19,200 --> 00:36:23,680
Speaker 1: of impact they can have. But also to the uninformed

657
00:36:23,920 --> 00:36:26,560
Speaker 1: in regards to legal matters, they serve these documents and

658
00:36:26,560 --> 00:36:29,680
Speaker 1: they throw in a couple of legal things and stamps

659
00:36:29,680 --> 00:36:32,160
Speaker 1: and that, and I can imagine that being served on

660
00:36:32,200 --> 00:36:34,880
Speaker 1: a person that isn't educated in that area, and the

661
00:36:34,920 --> 00:36:38,000
Speaker 1: confusion that would create just a simple thing like that.

662
00:36:38,480 --> 00:36:39,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, totally.

663
00:36:39,320 --> 00:36:41,360
Speaker 1: You get the document served or they raise it in

664
00:36:41,400 --> 00:36:44,680
Speaker 1: court and you can dismiss it out of hand. But yeah,

665
00:36:44,920 --> 00:36:47,200
Speaker 1: I imagine there's a lot of people that have been

666
00:36:47,280 --> 00:36:51,040
Speaker 1: impacted upon by them standing over people with the so

667
00:36:51,200 --> 00:36:51,880
Speaker 1: called Yeah.

668
00:36:51,760 --> 00:36:54,719
Speaker 2: Well it's okay for Scott Morrison and me to be

669
00:36:54,800 --> 00:36:57,439
Speaker 2: sent to jail. They senced me to five years jail,

670
00:36:57,440 --> 00:36:59,160
Speaker 2: they send him to ten. I thought the worst thing

671
00:36:59,200 --> 00:37:01,399
Speaker 2: could be is if we have to have a cell together.

672
00:37:01,280 --> 00:37:04,560
Speaker 1: That would be that would be unfee That wouldn't.

673
00:37:04,200 --> 00:37:07,080
Speaker 2: Have been a lot of fun for I'm sure, But yeah,

674
00:37:07,120 --> 00:37:09,600
Speaker 2: you have to appeal. But I think you're right. You know,

675
00:37:09,640 --> 00:37:12,680
Speaker 2: there's the Nagari Court that they've set up in Gimpi,

676
00:37:12,719 --> 00:37:15,239
Speaker 2: which purports to be a family court and which is

677
00:37:15,280 --> 00:37:17,799
Speaker 2: actually making orders for the return of children where the

678
00:37:17,840 --> 00:37:21,080
Speaker 2: family court has determined the children are with person X

679
00:37:21,520 --> 00:37:23,879
Speaker 2: in the In the leading case, it's it's a male

680
00:37:24,040 --> 00:37:26,920
Speaker 2: the father and the mother, who is the sovereign citizen

681
00:37:27,200 --> 00:37:30,239
Speaker 2: has got orders that she's serving on all sorts of

682
00:37:30,280 --> 00:37:34,200
Speaker 2: agencies and places saying that she actually has custody you

683
00:37:34,200 --> 00:37:35,600
Speaker 2: know there's an inherent danger in that.

684
00:37:35,880 --> 00:37:37,960
Speaker 1: How can we reduce the movement or the impact of

685
00:37:38,000 --> 00:37:40,840
Speaker 1: the movement. Have you got any thoughts on that? I have.

686
00:37:41,880 --> 00:37:45,240
Speaker 2: Firstly, I think when people come to court and start

687
00:37:45,280 --> 00:37:48,200
Speaker 2: expressing sovereign citizen views, I think we should give them

688
00:37:48,239 --> 00:37:50,440
Speaker 2: an option, just like we do with anger management, just

689
00:37:50,480 --> 00:37:52,680
Speaker 2: like we do with drug and alcohol counseling, just like

690
00:37:52,719 --> 00:37:56,120
Speaker 2: we do with gambling. And that is some sort of program,

691
00:37:56,200 --> 00:37:59,000
Speaker 2: at least a pilot, a program where you try and

692
00:37:59,040 --> 00:38:02,040
Speaker 2: debunk a lot of these beliefs, explain to them that

693
00:38:02,080 --> 00:38:04,640
Speaker 2: they won't hold up in court, and seek to change

694
00:38:05,040 --> 00:38:07,960
Speaker 2: their behavior. I've had success with that on a one

695
00:38:08,000 --> 00:38:10,719
Speaker 2: to one level, and I think it could work on scale.

696
00:38:11,000 --> 00:38:14,040
Speaker 2: We haven't done it yet, but I think it's worth exploring.

697
00:38:14,520 --> 00:38:16,880
Speaker 2: The second aspect is that there is people making money

698
00:38:16,920 --> 00:38:19,480
Speaker 2: out of the sovereign citizen movement. There are a lot

699
00:38:19,520 --> 00:38:24,879
Speaker 2: of subscription services where you subscribe and these people will

700
00:38:24,880 --> 00:38:26,719
Speaker 2: get you out of your speeding fine if you just

701
00:38:26,760 --> 00:38:29,319
Speaker 2: follow this script and just write these letters and just

702
00:38:29,440 --> 00:38:32,279
Speaker 2: take put your names in capitals and say you're a

703
00:38:32,360 --> 00:38:36,640
Speaker 2: traveler not a driver, and etc. The authorities really need

704
00:38:36,680 --> 00:38:41,120
Speaker 2: to crack down on these agencies of profit because behind

705
00:38:41,200 --> 00:38:43,640
Speaker 2: this movement there are people who are making a lot

706
00:38:43,680 --> 00:38:46,600
Speaker 2: of money and if you go for them, like the

707
00:38:46,680 --> 00:38:50,160
Speaker 2: drug trade, like a lot of crime, then if you

708
00:38:50,200 --> 00:38:51,759
Speaker 2: cut the head off the snake, the rest of it

709
00:38:51,800 --> 00:38:53,120
Speaker 2: really doesn't know what it's doing.

710
00:38:53,360 --> 00:38:58,360
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a difficult area and talking danger. You mentioned

711
00:38:59,080 --> 00:39:02,200
Speaker 1: Family Law Court the bomb that was placed, but we

712
00:39:02,239 --> 00:39:05,560
Speaker 1: had the Family Law Court judges and that was I

713
00:39:05,600 --> 00:39:08,759
Speaker 1: think it was even before my career but started in

714
00:39:08,800 --> 00:39:11,040
Speaker 1: the police. But I remember we're working on it and

715
00:39:11,719 --> 00:39:15,160
Speaker 1: very much aware of the recent charging of the conviction

716
00:39:15,280 --> 00:39:18,600
Speaker 1: of the person for it. That's horrific. That's where society is.

717
00:39:18,800 --> 00:39:21,520
Speaker 1: You know, we can all complain about the court so

718
00:39:21,600 --> 00:39:24,239
Speaker 1: they made the wrong decision, but when you start to

719
00:39:24,239 --> 00:39:27,840
Speaker 1: get people putting bombs in judges homes and people being murdered,

720
00:39:28,080 --> 00:39:28,760
Speaker 1: that's horrific.

721
00:39:29,600 --> 00:39:32,840
Speaker 2: I think it really is. And I think also we

722
00:39:33,360 --> 00:39:36,640
Speaker 2: should be grateful that we've got such an independent judiciary.

723
00:39:36,960 --> 00:39:39,360
Speaker 2: I know that that means sometimes decisions are made that

724
00:39:39,400 --> 00:39:41,720
Speaker 2: people don't like, too soft, too hard, whatever.

725
00:39:42,239 --> 00:39:45,520
Speaker 1: But in my time, David, I'm not talking about my

726
00:39:45,600 --> 00:39:46,520
Speaker 1: personal case here.

727
00:39:47,160 --> 00:39:51,400
Speaker 2: No, no, I'm not either, But you know, look at

728
00:39:51,400 --> 00:39:54,279
Speaker 2: the situation in America now where all judges are effectively

729
00:39:54,320 --> 00:39:59,240
Speaker 2: political appointments and there's no break on the excesses of government,

730
00:40:00,120 --> 00:40:03,440
Speaker 2: the excesses of enforcement agencies, and no one wants to

731
00:40:03,440 --> 00:40:06,719
Speaker 2: live in a society like that. When I was a magistrate,

732
00:40:06,760 --> 00:40:09,000
Speaker 2: I saw in that time, you know, literally hundreds of

733
00:40:09,000 --> 00:40:12,160
Speaker 2: magistrates come and go, and whether they are appointed because

734
00:40:12,160 --> 00:40:16,520
Speaker 2: they were prosecutors or ex defense lawyers or government officials,

735
00:40:17,120 --> 00:40:20,480
Speaker 2: all of them genuinely sought to apply the law according

736
00:40:20,480 --> 00:40:26,560
Speaker 2: to legal standards, not according to you know, one favoring

737
00:40:26,600 --> 00:40:29,120
Speaker 2: one party or another. And we should be so grateful

738
00:40:29,160 --> 00:40:30,920
Speaker 2: we've got that independent judiciary.

739
00:40:31,520 --> 00:40:35,560
Speaker 1: I think it's crucial with separation of powers between politics,

740
00:40:35,960 --> 00:40:38,840
Speaker 1: the courts of police. We need those separation of powers,

741
00:40:38,840 --> 00:40:41,839
Speaker 1: and if they all become too aligned, I think that's

742
00:40:41,840 --> 00:40:44,680
Speaker 1: where that's where problems are made, and it leans one

743
00:40:44,680 --> 00:40:47,880
Speaker 1: way or the other. That doesn't do the society justice.

744
00:40:48,640 --> 00:40:53,080
Speaker 1: It's so importantly. I don't like seeing politics get involved

745
00:40:53,120 --> 00:40:57,680
Speaker 1: in court matters. I'm a big believer in legislation changes

746
00:40:57,719 --> 00:40:59,640
Speaker 1: if it needed to be changes, but I don't like

747
00:40:59,640 --> 00:41:03,520
Speaker 1: the Neederk reaction where legislations changes because it's become a

748
00:41:03,560 --> 00:41:06,160
Speaker 1: popular vote winner and oh, we're going to bring in

749
00:41:05,920 --> 00:41:06,680
Speaker 1: this law.

750
00:41:06,880 --> 00:41:10,880
Speaker 2: So yeah, and also you know, magistrates and judges should

751
00:41:10,880 --> 00:41:13,840
Speaker 2: be criticized. It's you know, when the media would criticize

752
00:41:13,880 --> 00:41:15,560
Speaker 2: me saying, you know, you're at least a person and

753
00:41:15,560 --> 00:41:18,440
Speaker 2: then they did a crime fair cop, you know, like

754
00:41:19,560 --> 00:41:21,800
Speaker 2: I never had a problem with that in the sense

755
00:41:21,840 --> 00:41:24,040
Speaker 2: that you know, you can't afford to be reactive in

756
00:41:24,080 --> 00:41:27,919
Speaker 2: that situation and not cop criticism. But yes, as you say,

757
00:41:28,280 --> 00:41:30,880
Speaker 2: simply changing the law because of one bad case or

758
00:41:30,920 --> 00:41:34,200
Speaker 2: one bad decision, it always has implications that no one's

759
00:41:34,239 --> 00:41:36,040
Speaker 2: happy with in the end, and then you have to

760
00:41:36,080 --> 00:41:38,960
Speaker 2: go back and it takes time, and there's injustice.

761
00:41:40,320 --> 00:41:43,680
Speaker 1: The scrutiny called. I'm a big believer in open justice

762
00:41:43,680 --> 00:41:47,080
Speaker 1: as well, and I've seen it in my career times

763
00:41:47,080 --> 00:41:49,200
Speaker 1: where I think that's not good that the doors are

764
00:41:49,200 --> 00:41:51,480
Speaker 1: shut to the media or the public on this one,

765
00:41:51,520 --> 00:41:55,880
Speaker 1: because sometimes I think there's mistakes made or things that

766
00:41:55,920 --> 00:41:59,800
Speaker 1: aren't people are not accountable when there's not the public scrutiny.

767
00:42:00,160 --> 00:42:02,839
Speaker 1: I get the sense through your career you were very

768
00:42:02,880 --> 00:42:06,319
Speaker 1: much open to the open justice system, even in the

769
00:42:06,320 --> 00:42:09,400
Speaker 1: way that you talked and you'd offer opinions on current

770
00:42:09,480 --> 00:42:11,920
Speaker 1: situations and weren't afraid to voice those opinions.

771
00:42:12,840 --> 00:42:15,560
Speaker 2: If I thought the law was being silly, I would

772
00:42:15,600 --> 00:42:17,840
Speaker 2: certainly say so, but then I would go ahead and

773
00:42:17,840 --> 00:42:21,680
Speaker 2: apply it as you must. You take an oath, like

774
00:42:22,640 --> 00:42:24,880
Speaker 2: an oath to uphold the laws and usages of the

775
00:42:24,920 --> 00:42:27,480
Speaker 2: State of New South Wales without fear or favor, affection

776
00:42:27,640 --> 00:42:31,399
Speaker 2: or ill will. And what that means is whatever your

777
00:42:31,400 --> 00:42:33,239
Speaker 2: personal view is, the law is the law. And you know,

778
00:42:33,520 --> 00:42:37,320
Speaker 2: I had problems, like we've talked about with possession minor

779
00:42:37,360 --> 00:42:40,880
Speaker 2: possession charges for prohibited drugs, but you've got a lot

780
00:42:40,920 --> 00:42:43,120
Speaker 2: of discretion there. You don't have to send everyone to

781
00:42:43,200 --> 00:42:45,720
Speaker 2: jail for it. Indeed, you don't have to convict people

782
00:42:45,719 --> 00:42:49,759
Speaker 2: for it, and you know, especially first offenders, that's what

783
00:42:49,840 --> 00:42:52,239
Speaker 2: I would do. But it has to be open and

784
00:42:52,280 --> 00:42:55,440
Speaker 2: you have to have a good appeal system because the

785
00:42:55,440 --> 00:42:58,919
Speaker 2: scrutiny that's given by the media, whether it be whether

786
00:42:58,960 --> 00:43:03,160
Speaker 2: it be tabloid me or so called non tabloid media.

787
00:43:03,239 --> 00:43:07,680
Speaker 2: The more intellectual approach, I honestly don't think it matters.

788
00:43:07,760 --> 00:43:10,200
Speaker 2: It's good to have people in court and watching and

789
00:43:10,640 --> 00:43:12,879
Speaker 2: I would love it when school kids came in and

790
00:43:13,080 --> 00:43:15,239
Speaker 2: I tell the first thing I tell law students is

791
00:43:16,160 --> 00:43:18,440
Speaker 2: spend as much time in court as you can. Just

792
00:43:18,600 --> 00:43:21,640
Speaker 2: become a courtroom junkie. Just watch it. I still am

793
00:43:22,040 --> 00:43:25,080
Speaker 2: if I still practice a little now, and if I

794
00:43:25,120 --> 00:43:26,600
Speaker 2: have a case that's not going to get on till

795
00:43:26,640 --> 00:43:29,080
Speaker 2: the afternoon, no better way to spend the day than

796
00:43:29,120 --> 00:43:29,880
Speaker 2: watch the morning A.

797
00:43:30,280 --> 00:43:33,839
Speaker 1: Yeah, if you can, you can certainly learn things from there.

798
00:43:34,640 --> 00:43:39,560
Speaker 1: So with the as a magistrate, you talked about the

799
00:43:39,640 --> 00:43:43,960
Speaker 1: drug laws, and I think the issues that you had

800
00:43:44,000 --> 00:43:47,840
Speaker 1: with people that have used let's say, what's the medical

801
00:43:47,920 --> 00:43:51,239
Speaker 1: based cannabis and then being pulled over. You had a

802
00:43:51,280 --> 00:43:53,600
Speaker 1: lot of people coming before the court's there with a

803
00:43:53,640 --> 00:43:58,640
Speaker 1: miniscule amount of cannabis still in their system and people

804
00:43:58,640 --> 00:44:01,320
Speaker 1: being charged. What's your you take on that situation.

805
00:44:02,200 --> 00:44:04,640
Speaker 2: It wasn't so much problem when cannabiates was just an

806
00:44:04,600 --> 00:44:06,719
Speaker 2: illicit drug, But of course we know now that it's

807
00:44:06,719 --> 00:44:10,000
Speaker 2: available by prescription and there's a million prescriptions now in

808
00:44:10,040 --> 00:44:13,279
Speaker 2: excess of a million prescriptions, So what we've got is

809
00:44:13,280 --> 00:44:16,879
Speaker 2: a lot of people driving around who use THHC as

810
00:44:16,920 --> 00:44:20,200
Speaker 2: their preferred medication prescribed by their doctor. But if they

811
00:44:20,200 --> 00:44:22,640
Speaker 2: have a detectable level in their system. We're not talking

812
00:44:22,680 --> 00:44:26,440
Speaker 2: about people being stoned, but just a detectable level. Then

813
00:44:26,480 --> 00:44:29,319
Speaker 2: they're committing an offense and they lose their license. Now

814
00:44:29,360 --> 00:44:32,040
Speaker 2: that when I was sitting as a magistrate, I would have,

815
00:44:32,160 --> 00:44:36,040
Speaker 2: you know, single mums who who were getting medication for

816
00:44:36,920 --> 00:44:39,640
Speaker 2: all sorts of things, be it PTSD, or who were

817
00:44:39,640 --> 00:44:45,279
Speaker 2: getting THHDC prescribed by their doctors, or chronic pain or epilepsy,

818
00:44:45,600 --> 00:44:48,000
Speaker 2: and they would say, you can't take away my license.

819
00:44:48,000 --> 00:44:49,520
Speaker 2: How am I going to get my kids to school

820
00:44:49,600 --> 00:44:52,080
Speaker 2: or to sport or all the other things. And I

821
00:44:52,080 --> 00:44:54,359
Speaker 2: would say, I'm sorry, this is the law. And I

822
00:44:54,440 --> 00:44:56,640
Speaker 2: just felt that that was really wrong and I spoke

823
00:44:56,680 --> 00:44:59,040
Speaker 2: out about it, and I still speak out about it.

824
00:44:59,080 --> 00:45:00,799
Speaker 2: And you know, the drug some we just had in

825
00:45:00,880 --> 00:45:04,600
Speaker 2: New South Wales with John Brogden and Carmel Tabbitt recognize

826
00:45:04,640 --> 00:45:08,200
Speaker 2: that the overwhelming view of the unanimous view as far

827
00:45:08,239 --> 00:45:10,880
Speaker 2: as I know of the drug Summit, certainly of the report,

828
00:45:11,120 --> 00:45:15,239
Speaker 2: was that this law should change, and hopefully we're going

829
00:45:15,280 --> 00:45:16,319
Speaker 2: to see that this year.

830
00:45:16,520 --> 00:45:19,560
Speaker 1: Well, I think it is something that needs to come

831
00:45:19,560 --> 00:45:22,640
Speaker 1: in because I've got friends that use medical cannabis and

832
00:45:22,920 --> 00:45:24,879
Speaker 1: I see them drive and that might be a week later,

833
00:45:24,920 --> 00:45:28,880
Speaker 1: and I'm thinking, I'm no expert, but I'm thinking if

834
00:45:28,920 --> 00:45:31,240
Speaker 1: you get pulled over that there's a good chance that

835
00:45:31,320 --> 00:45:33,839
Speaker 1: you'd still have it in your system.

836
00:45:34,280 --> 00:45:37,600
Speaker 2: Typically, how people take medicinal cannabis is they would take

837
00:45:37,600 --> 00:45:40,080
Speaker 2: it after dinner. It would help them sleep, and of

838
00:45:40,120 --> 00:45:42,640
Speaker 2: course the effects of that eight, ten, twelve hours later

839
00:45:42,719 --> 00:45:45,320
Speaker 2: would be zero. There's no question that they are driving

840
00:45:45,360 --> 00:45:48,640
Speaker 2: while they're intoxicated or anything. The other aspect to this,

841
00:45:48,719 --> 00:45:51,000
Speaker 2: of course, is what's their alternative. Do they go on

842
00:45:51,360 --> 00:45:55,399
Speaker 2: benzodiazepines or valium or anti anxiety medication, or do they

843
00:45:55,480 --> 00:46:00,280
Speaker 2: drink a residual amount of any other prescription drug doesn't

844
00:46:00,280 --> 00:46:03,800
Speaker 2: trigger this law. I jokingly said at Parliament House a

845
00:46:03,800 --> 00:46:06,000
Speaker 2: few weeks ago, I was speaking about this and I

846
00:46:06,080 --> 00:46:07,919
Speaker 2: jokingly said, I feel like I need a T shirt

847
00:46:07,920 --> 00:46:11,479
Speaker 2: that says just like any other prescription drug, and that's

848
00:46:11,520 --> 00:46:14,239
Speaker 2: all people, that's how we should treat it, just like

849
00:46:14,360 --> 00:46:16,560
Speaker 2: every other. Imagine if there was a new drug we'll

850
00:46:16,560 --> 00:46:20,000
Speaker 2: call it weed, that came in from America that had

851
00:46:20,000 --> 00:46:23,320
Speaker 2: these benefits, no one would even think about making it

852
00:46:23,400 --> 00:46:26,680
Speaker 2: an offense to have a detectable level, like with desperine

853
00:46:27,000 --> 00:46:28,319
Speaker 2: or alcohol or anything else.

854
00:46:28,440 --> 00:46:31,960
Speaker 1: No, Well, it's again this is where I've always been

855
00:46:32,040 --> 00:46:34,919
Speaker 1: of the belief that the lawsuit evolved to reflect the

856
00:46:34,960 --> 00:46:39,920
Speaker 1: needs of society and the changes in society. Talking of changes,

857
00:46:40,000 --> 00:46:42,920
Speaker 1: one thing that I know that caused me concerned what

858
00:46:43,000 --> 00:46:46,400
Speaker 1: I saw of the effect and we're still talking drugs

859
00:46:46,400 --> 00:46:49,480
Speaker 1: with a completely different drug ice in the communities. And

860
00:46:49,480 --> 00:46:52,520
Speaker 1: I would imagine in the communities, even when you're a magistrate,

861
00:46:52,520 --> 00:46:56,200
Speaker 1: that would would have been prevalent. And what was the

862
00:46:56,239 --> 00:46:59,160
Speaker 1: impact that you saw of the prevalence of ice in

863
00:46:59,760 --> 00:47:00,840
Speaker 1: the me these.

864
00:47:01,880 --> 00:47:04,200
Speaker 2: And the two things, the two topics, the drug driving

865
00:47:04,239 --> 00:47:07,719
Speaker 2: topic and ice are not unrelated because for ice, as

866
00:47:07,719 --> 00:47:10,640
Speaker 2: we all know, it's water soluble, whereas cannabis as fat soluble.

867
00:47:10,680 --> 00:47:12,920
Speaker 2: So people could use ice on a Friday night if

868
00:47:12,920 --> 00:47:15,040
Speaker 2: they wanted to go out, it was cheap, they could

869
00:47:15,120 --> 00:47:17,600
Speaker 2: use it. They could then drive the next day without detection.

870
00:47:18,400 --> 00:47:22,040
Speaker 2: And it had a shocking impact on the operations of

871
00:47:22,080 --> 00:47:26,120
Speaker 2: the court. Lismore Courthouse has been there for at least

872
00:47:26,120 --> 00:47:29,640
Speaker 2: a couple of hundred years, but there'd never been the

873
00:47:29,719 --> 00:47:34,040
Speaker 2: need for a walled in, glassed in or barred dock.

874
00:47:34,480 --> 00:47:38,000
Speaker 2: That's where prisoners are kept while the court's on. But

875
00:47:38,120 --> 00:47:41,239
Speaker 2: with ice, there was people escapes, there was a lot

876
00:47:41,280 --> 00:47:44,040
Speaker 2: of violence in the court. There's people jumping over the

877
00:47:44,840 --> 00:47:48,040
Speaker 2: railing and injuring themselves. We had to double the number

878
00:47:48,080 --> 00:47:51,600
Speaker 2: of sheriffs in court. The impact of ice. People who

879
00:47:51,680 --> 00:47:55,480
Speaker 2: are craving ice, who are addicted and have been arrested,

880
00:47:56,719 --> 00:48:02,280
Speaker 2: they lose all sense of logical sense, and they're extremely

881
00:48:02,320 --> 00:48:04,719
Speaker 2: strong and extremely violent, and we saw that in the

882
00:48:04,760 --> 00:48:08,600
Speaker 2: court time after time. It's a really bad.

883
00:48:08,480 --> 00:48:11,960
Speaker 1: Drug and it's readily available too.

884
00:48:12,280 --> 00:48:15,600
Speaker 2: It's an absolute tragedy. You know. My students now tell

885
00:48:15,640 --> 00:48:17,839
Speaker 2: me that, Well, if they go out, you know, for

886
00:48:17,880 --> 00:48:20,120
Speaker 2: a big for a big night, as young people are

887
00:48:20,200 --> 00:48:23,279
Speaker 2: wont to do alcohol all costs them, you know, and

888
00:48:23,360 --> 00:48:26,520
Speaker 2: maybe one hundred dollars cannabis. Well they've got the risks

889
00:48:26,520 --> 00:48:31,080
Speaker 2: of driving and it smells and whatever. Ice fifteen bucks.

890
00:48:31,239 --> 00:48:32,480
Speaker 1: That's a concern, isn't it.

891
00:48:32,520 --> 00:48:36,200
Speaker 2: You know? I mean, that's that is just a that's

892
00:48:36,239 --> 00:48:39,279
Speaker 2: a failure of drug policy, and it's a failure of

893
00:48:40,880 --> 00:48:43,920
Speaker 2: our society that the most dangerous drug is there is

894
00:48:43,960 --> 00:48:47,680
Speaker 2: the cheapest and most prevalent. That's a really difficult and

895
00:48:47,800 --> 00:48:51,320
Speaker 2: dangerous situation for those involved. Now I get the sense

896
00:48:51,360 --> 00:48:53,480
Speaker 2: that we may have reached the peak of it and

897
00:48:53,520 --> 00:48:55,960
Speaker 2: we're on the downhill slide. Is that your sense as well?

898
00:48:56,040 --> 00:48:59,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, it doesn't like there was a point in time

899
00:48:59,000 --> 00:49:02,680
Speaker 1: where it was the usage was growing exponentially and with

900
00:49:02,840 --> 00:49:07,000
Speaker 1: almost and you would get the information that's hit the town,

901
00:49:07,239 --> 00:49:10,520
Speaker 1: and then the town the dynamics of the town change,

902
00:49:10,560 --> 00:49:14,080
Speaker 1: and maybe there is it's planted out, but it is

903
00:49:14,520 --> 00:49:17,680
Speaker 1: so concerning, and the crimes can be very violent when

904
00:49:18,320 --> 00:49:21,239
Speaker 1: the people have been on ice, and towards the latter

905
00:49:21,280 --> 00:49:23,480
Speaker 1: part of my career, in the homicide out at the

906
00:49:23,680 --> 00:49:27,120
Speaker 1: Tamworth there was someone that was affected by ice and

907
00:49:27,160 --> 00:49:29,919
Speaker 1: committed a horrific murder. But I remember speaking to him

908
00:49:30,440 --> 00:49:33,840
Speaker 1: and just it was chilling. It was like I was

909
00:49:33,880 --> 00:49:36,800
Speaker 1: talking to a zombie, like there was no soul behind

910
00:49:36,800 --> 00:49:39,080
Speaker 1: the eyes, and it was something different. I'd seen all

911
00:49:39,160 --> 00:49:42,440
Speaker 1: types of people affected by drugs, but there was something

912
00:49:42,560 --> 00:49:45,880
Speaker 1: not quite right when I was speaking to this person.

913
00:49:46,400 --> 00:49:49,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I think I think the involvement of a

914
00:49:49,120 --> 00:49:52,440
Speaker 2: whole lot of programs really have proven pretty successful. We

915
00:49:52,480 --> 00:49:55,160
Speaker 2: have the Drug Court, which doesn't sit in enough places,

916
00:49:55,160 --> 00:49:57,360
Speaker 2: but at least it's in Sydney and it's in Dubbo

917
00:49:57,400 --> 00:50:01,359
Speaker 2: now and it's in Newcastle. We also have MERIT, which

918
00:50:01,400 --> 00:50:05,319
Speaker 2: is magistrate's early referral into treatment, which means that drug

919
00:50:05,320 --> 00:50:09,280
Speaker 2: offenders can be dealt with via rehabilitation process as opposed

920
00:50:09,320 --> 00:50:13,279
Speaker 2: to know, a more punishment based process. So I think

921
00:50:13,360 --> 00:50:17,200
Speaker 2: the system always a bit slow, is a bit too late,

922
00:50:17,320 --> 00:50:21,600
Speaker 2: but still is effectively gearing up to deal with these

923
00:50:21,640 --> 00:50:24,160
Speaker 2: problems in a much more constructive way than we were

924
00:50:24,160 --> 00:50:27,240
Speaker 2: dealing with them before. Because you know, the other scary

925
00:50:27,280 --> 00:50:31,600
Speaker 2: aspect is the urine samples that are taken from prisons.

926
00:50:32,880 --> 00:50:37,880
Speaker 2: Amphetamines are rife in prisons, so you know, that's obviously

927
00:50:37,920 --> 00:50:41,040
Speaker 2: not an answer. I think the other thing that's happened,

928
00:50:41,080 --> 00:50:43,680
Speaker 2: also for good or for bad, is that cocaine has

929
00:50:43,760 --> 00:50:48,919
Speaker 2: really taken over to a bigger extent than ice. And

930
00:50:49,640 --> 00:50:52,799
Speaker 2: what you know, not saying one drug is better than

931
00:50:52,840 --> 00:50:55,960
Speaker 2: the other, but I think that the consequences of violence

932
00:50:56,000 --> 00:50:56,480
Speaker 2: are less.

933
00:50:56,640 --> 00:50:59,760
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that's far to say about putting ourselves

934
00:50:59,840 --> 00:51:03,719
Speaker 1: up experts in the field, but I think I'm not

935
00:51:03,800 --> 00:51:08,360
Speaker 1: saying anything. I think that, yeah, the damages from ice,

936
00:51:08,880 --> 00:51:12,640
Speaker 1: that's far far reaching. There's damages. I've seen people lose

937
00:51:12,719 --> 00:51:15,279
Speaker 1: track and lose path in in Cokaine, but it's more

938
00:51:15,320 --> 00:51:17,880
Speaker 1: of a gradual thing with ice. It gave from a

939
00:51:17,960 --> 00:51:20,480
Speaker 1: normal person to a shell of a human being in

940
00:51:20,520 --> 00:51:23,120
Speaker 1: a very short period of time. You work at the

941
00:51:23,200 --> 00:51:26,040
Speaker 1: UNI with the students. What are you doing there? What's

942
00:51:26,080 --> 00:51:28,080
Speaker 1: your title and what's your role that you're doing there.

943
00:51:28,640 --> 00:51:30,560
Speaker 2: I'm the Dean of Law, which means I'm head of

944
00:51:30,560 --> 00:51:34,680
Speaker 2: the law discipline, which we have, you know, students doing

945
00:51:34,760 --> 00:51:39,239
Speaker 2: law degrees, students doing paralegal degrees, students doing conveyancing. I'm

946
00:51:39,239 --> 00:51:41,680
Speaker 2: in a large faculty which is the faculty Business Law

947
00:51:41,719 --> 00:51:44,920
Speaker 2: and Arts, so there's compatibility with arts. We have a

948
00:51:44,920 --> 00:51:48,840
Speaker 2: lot of double degrees. And you know, it's marvelous for

949
00:51:48,920 --> 00:51:52,200
Speaker 2: me to be back in an environment where I'm teaching again.

950
00:51:52,239 --> 00:51:57,480
Speaker 2: It's an absolute delight. And I've got a great crew

951
00:51:57,920 --> 00:52:01,200
Speaker 2: of really dedicated academics. I guess we pride ourselves on

952
00:52:01,239 --> 00:52:06,360
Speaker 2: producing great lawyers as opposed to other universities which focus

953
00:52:06,520 --> 00:52:10,720
Speaker 2: much more on research and on higher degrees. We're a rural,

954
00:52:10,840 --> 00:52:14,040
Speaker 2: a regional law school. We were based in Lismore. Now

955
00:52:14,040 --> 00:52:16,799
Speaker 2: we're also at the Gold Coast and Coffs Harbor, and

956
00:52:17,120 --> 00:52:20,520
Speaker 2: you know, we produce lawyers who go to small firms

957
00:52:20,520 --> 00:52:24,279
Speaker 2: and practice law, who go to Aboriginal Legal Service, legal

958
00:52:24,320 --> 00:52:27,520
Speaker 2: aid government departments. We have some in the larger firms,

959
00:52:28,880 --> 00:52:32,080
Speaker 2: but it's you know, I've been living in the country

960
00:52:32,120 --> 00:52:34,920
Speaker 2: so long that produced to produce great country lawyers is

961
00:52:35,920 --> 00:52:38,200
Speaker 2: there's a shortage of them. There's not enough lawyers in

962
00:52:38,239 --> 00:52:40,160
Speaker 2: the country, in the country areas.

963
00:52:40,280 --> 00:52:44,040
Speaker 1: And what do you think you're saying making great lawyers?

964
00:52:44,080 --> 00:52:46,840
Speaker 1: What are the attributes you're looking for or what's the

965
00:52:46,920 --> 00:52:51,319
Speaker 1: finished product that comes out after they've got their qualifications?

966
00:52:51,360 --> 00:52:52,960
Speaker 1: What are you looking at for a good lawyer?

967
00:52:53,600 --> 00:52:56,839
Speaker 2: You know, I think there's really only two things that's

968
00:52:56,880 --> 00:52:58,840
Speaker 2: actually really simple. The first is you've got to be

969
00:52:58,880 --> 00:53:01,040
Speaker 2: able to communicate, and you've got to be able to

970
00:53:01,040 --> 00:53:04,760
Speaker 2: communicate with an incredible range of people, from the judges

971
00:53:04,800 --> 00:53:08,759
Speaker 2: and magistrates to your colleagues, the other lawyers, to the

972
00:53:08,800 --> 00:53:12,279
Speaker 2: people on the street, to your staff. You've just got

973
00:53:12,280 --> 00:53:15,600
Speaker 2: to have that real ability to talk to people and

974
00:53:15,719 --> 00:53:19,040
Speaker 2: not talk down to people and not complicate things. So

975
00:53:19,080 --> 00:53:21,440
Speaker 2: the first is communication. The second thing is you've got

976
00:53:21,440 --> 00:53:23,400
Speaker 2: to have a love of the law. You've got to

977
00:53:23,520 --> 00:53:27,560
Speaker 2: enjoy researching it, finding out what the latest is, seeing

978
00:53:27,640 --> 00:53:29,920
Speaker 2: how it's useful for your client, or how it fits

979
00:53:29,920 --> 00:53:33,160
Speaker 2: in better for the society. So if you've got those

980
00:53:33,200 --> 00:53:35,640
Speaker 2: two factors, then you've got a great lawyer and an

981
00:53:35,640 --> 00:53:38,360
Speaker 2: employable one and one that will be a benefit to

982
00:53:38,400 --> 00:53:40,160
Speaker 2: the community. And you know, we have a lot of

983
00:53:40,160 --> 00:53:41,880
Speaker 2: people who we have a lot of police who are

984
00:53:41,920 --> 00:53:44,480
Speaker 2: studying law because they want to become prosecutors or join

985
00:53:44,520 --> 00:53:47,800
Speaker 2: the DPP or go into private practice. At the average

986
00:53:47,840 --> 00:53:51,480
Speaker 2: age of our student is not school leaver age. It's

987
00:53:51,600 --> 00:53:54,120
Speaker 2: in their late twenties, so people have had a bit

988
00:53:54,160 --> 00:53:54,760
Speaker 2: of a life.

989
00:53:54,920 --> 00:53:58,120
Speaker 1: That's not a bad thing going into that environment. Having

990
00:53:58,280 --> 00:54:01,280
Speaker 1: life experience it makes it I saw it in policing,

991
00:54:01,360 --> 00:54:04,080
Speaker 1: and I would imagine that it's very much similar in law.

992
00:54:04,320 --> 00:54:06,719
Speaker 2: I remember reading I can't remember. I think it was

993
00:54:06,719 --> 00:54:12,360
Speaker 2: the Wood Royle Commission into Police corruption said that the

994
00:54:12,480 --> 00:54:15,200
Speaker 2: older the age you employed the police, the less likely

995
00:54:15,239 --> 00:54:19,120
Speaker 2: they are to be corruptible. You know, when people were

996
00:54:19,160 --> 00:54:22,480
Speaker 2: brought into professions at seventeen and eighteen, and you know

997
00:54:22,840 --> 00:54:25,600
Speaker 2: they were Whereas if you've got a trade to fall

998
00:54:25,600 --> 00:54:27,960
Speaker 2: back on if all else fails, then you know you're

999
00:54:28,000 --> 00:54:30,759
Speaker 2: less likely to be culturally influenced by negative things as

1000
00:54:30,760 --> 00:54:31,640
Speaker 2: opposed to positive.

1001
00:54:31,880 --> 00:54:34,040
Speaker 1: David, that's and I haven't heard it put that way,

1002
00:54:34,080 --> 00:54:36,839
Speaker 1: but it's an interesting point, the non reflection. I think

1003
00:54:36,840 --> 00:54:41,279
Speaker 1: it's very very true that if we had what was

1004
00:54:41,320 --> 00:54:44,160
Speaker 1: called cadets where you could basically go straight from school

1005
00:54:44,200 --> 00:54:47,640
Speaker 1: into the police, that's the only culture you knew outside

1006
00:54:47,640 --> 00:54:52,319
Speaker 1: of school. I worked in the building industry and got

1007
00:54:52,360 --> 00:54:55,200
Speaker 1: an electrical trade for six years before I joined the police,

1008
00:54:55,360 --> 00:54:57,080
Speaker 1: and I think that was the best thing that happened

1009
00:54:57,080 --> 00:54:59,840
Speaker 1: to me. And I was also in like I was

1010
00:55:00,040 --> 00:55:02,279
Speaker 1: age of crime before the Royal Commission and all that,

1011
00:55:02,360 --> 00:55:06,360
Speaker 1: so I was around that time, but I had the

1012
00:55:06,400 --> 00:55:09,279
Speaker 1: life experience to navigate my way through through that in

1013
00:55:09,360 --> 00:55:11,440
Speaker 1: that you know, I could stand up for myself. I

1014
00:55:12,000 --> 00:55:14,560
Speaker 1: could sense this person wasn't quite right. I didn't buy

1015
00:55:14,600 --> 00:55:18,040
Speaker 1: into the whole culture. And so I think that's a

1016
00:55:19,200 --> 00:55:22,759
Speaker 1: good idea that having that life experience before taking on

1017
00:55:22,840 --> 00:55:25,400
Speaker 1: the profession, that once you're in there, it gets your

1018
00:55:25,400 --> 00:55:27,960
Speaker 1: wholess ballus and you get caught up in the whole thing.

1019
00:55:28,320 --> 00:55:32,200
Speaker 1: And a lawyer, I always laugh when police are complaining

1020
00:55:32,239 --> 00:55:33,880
Speaker 1: how tough the job is, and I think spend the

1021
00:55:33,960 --> 00:55:38,520
Speaker 1: day on the jackammer and the hot sun spend the

1022
00:55:38,560 --> 00:55:40,560
Speaker 1: day on the jackammer and tell me what we're doing

1023
00:55:40,600 --> 00:55:45,000
Speaker 1: here at the crime scene is hard. So I wanted

1024
00:55:45,040 --> 00:55:48,360
Speaker 1: to ask you this because I'm falling. We're talking about

1025
00:55:48,360 --> 00:55:51,239
Speaker 1: sovereign citizens falling down rabbit holes. I'm falling down the

1026
00:55:51,320 --> 00:55:53,480
Speaker 1: rabbit hole of AI. At the moment I had to

1027
00:55:53,520 --> 00:55:56,440
Speaker 1: do a talk with a lady about crime and AI

1028
00:55:57,560 --> 00:56:02,520
Speaker 1: the future of training lawyers. But I'm thinking the access

1029
00:56:02,520 --> 00:56:05,120
Speaker 1: that you've got to material case law, which is always

1030
00:56:05,160 --> 00:56:07,160
Speaker 1: a part of a good lawyer being able to research

1031
00:56:07,200 --> 00:56:09,799
Speaker 1: the cases and get the material. Where do you see

1032
00:56:09,800 --> 00:56:13,240
Speaker 1: the future of law with the advent of AI.

1033
00:56:14,080 --> 00:56:16,399
Speaker 2: Well, in terms of teaching law, I think we've got

1034
00:56:16,440 --> 00:56:19,200
Speaker 2: to come pretty quickly to the conclusion that the bedrock

1035
00:56:19,280 --> 00:56:24,359
Speaker 2: method of assessment, which was assignments, is gone. You know,

1036
00:56:25,360 --> 00:56:27,799
Speaker 2: we can catch some now, we'll be able to catch

1037
00:56:27,880 --> 00:56:31,520
Speaker 2: less in five years and less five years later. So

1038
00:56:32,000 --> 00:56:34,840
Speaker 2: if you can't test people by writing assignments, how do

1039
00:56:34,880 --> 00:56:37,799
Speaker 2: you test them? Well, the other is exams. Well, then

1040
00:56:37,840 --> 00:56:40,080
Speaker 2: you're going to have closed book exams. Can people have

1041
00:56:40,120 --> 00:56:43,879
Speaker 2: their computers there? Because if they can, then AI will

1042
00:56:43,960 --> 00:56:46,040
Speaker 2: just take over. Are you going to go back to

1043
00:56:46,160 --> 00:56:49,920
Speaker 2: closed book handwritten exams, Well, what does that test? Just

1044
00:56:49,960 --> 00:56:53,200
Speaker 2: tests memory and we're not testing whether people are those

1045
00:56:53,239 --> 00:56:55,360
Speaker 2: skills that I said before, I love and passion for

1046
00:56:55,400 --> 00:56:58,200
Speaker 2: the law and the ability to communicate. So I guess

1047
00:56:58,280 --> 00:57:00,840
Speaker 2: I see the law school of the future with AI

1048
00:57:01,480 --> 00:57:05,400
Speaker 2: as being what I call, without being derogatory at all,

1049
00:57:05,480 --> 00:57:07,720
Speaker 2: the Plumber model where you go out into the field

1050
00:57:07,719 --> 00:57:09,880
Speaker 2: four days a week, you're working with other lawyers or

1051
00:57:10,000 --> 00:57:15,000
Speaker 2: judges or police or anyone within the justice system, and

1052
00:57:15,120 --> 00:57:16,640
Speaker 2: a day a week you come back and you learn

1053
00:57:16,680 --> 00:57:20,080
Speaker 2: your theory, rather than what we're doing now, which is

1054
00:57:20,160 --> 00:57:22,280
Speaker 2: just trying to ram it into three years or four

1055
00:57:22,360 --> 00:57:26,600
Speaker 2: years into a degree and it's all intellectual without very

1056
00:57:26,720 --> 00:57:29,600
Speaker 2: much going out into the field. And you know, I

1057
00:57:29,640 --> 00:57:32,680
Speaker 2: think that that model, which which ironically is what they

1058
00:57:32,760 --> 00:57:35,000
Speaker 2: used to call article clerks, it's how people used to

1059
00:57:35,080 --> 00:57:39,040
Speaker 2: go to UNI. That model of learning, I think is

1060
00:57:39,040 --> 00:57:42,400
Speaker 2: what we're going to have. And that's not a model

1061
00:57:42,440 --> 00:57:44,920
Speaker 2: that will come to any surprise for people, say in

1062
00:57:44,920 --> 00:57:48,800
Speaker 2: the medical profession or indeed teaching as well. You know,

1063
00:57:48,880 --> 00:57:51,280
Speaker 2: they do a lot of their learning in the field. Well,

1064
00:57:51,400 --> 00:57:53,560
Speaker 2: I think that's the way law has to move. As

1065
00:57:53,600 --> 00:57:56,919
Speaker 2: for AI and the practice of law, I can see

1066
00:57:56,960 --> 00:58:00,960
Speaker 2: situations where, for example, in sentencing, where all the factors

1067
00:58:01,000 --> 00:58:04,160
Speaker 2: are fed into AI, you know, just to drink, drive,

1068
00:58:04,280 --> 00:58:06,760
Speaker 2: charge the bread and butter of the local court tens

1069
00:58:06,800 --> 00:58:10,640
Speaker 2: of thousands of matters every year. Well do they really

1070
00:58:10,680 --> 00:58:16,000
Speaker 2: need individual assessment by a judge or should it instead

1071
00:58:16,120 --> 00:58:18,520
Speaker 2: be fed into a big mega computer and a proposed

1072
00:58:18,520 --> 00:58:21,800
Speaker 2: penalty comes out taking into account all the factors that

1073
00:58:21,840 --> 00:58:23,720
Speaker 2: are fed in and if you don't like that penalty

1074
00:58:23,760 --> 00:58:25,200
Speaker 2: you can go to the court and say, well this

1075
00:58:25,280 --> 00:58:29,240
Speaker 2: is why it should be different. Similarly, you know the

1076
00:58:29,280 --> 00:58:31,880
Speaker 2: preparation of documents. You know, the Chief Justice of New

1077
00:58:31,920 --> 00:58:33,800
Speaker 2: South Wales has said we're not going to use AI

1078
00:58:33,880 --> 00:58:38,800
Speaker 2: and affidavits and well, really, really, what you're inviting there

1079
00:58:39,360 --> 00:58:41,560
Speaker 2: is people to do it and then cover it up

1080
00:58:41,600 --> 00:58:42,520
Speaker 2: and that's even worse.

1081
00:58:42,880 --> 00:58:46,720
Speaker 1: Yeah, I wondered about that because that was a big

1082
00:58:46,760 --> 00:58:49,880
Speaker 1: part of policing, like Affhi Davids, and I'm thinking, what's

1083
00:58:49,880 --> 00:58:51,920
Speaker 1: happening because I've been out of the police five years,

1084
00:58:52,200 --> 00:58:55,000
Speaker 1: what's happening now? Because that was to type up an

1085
00:58:55,000 --> 00:58:57,800
Speaker 1: Affidavid to get a Supreme Court warrant at two o'clock

1086
00:58:57,840 --> 00:58:59,640
Speaker 1: in the morning. It took skill and that was a

1087
00:58:59,720 --> 00:59:02,400
Speaker 1: real the skill that you developed as a detective. You

1088
00:59:02,440 --> 00:59:04,680
Speaker 1: could you got renowned for your skills to be able

1089
00:59:04,720 --> 00:59:06,840
Speaker 1: to type up in that for David, and it was

1090
00:59:06,840 --> 00:59:10,400
Speaker 1: a particular skill drawing all the evidence together succinctly. That's

1091
00:59:10,440 --> 00:59:13,360
Speaker 1: going to pass the test with a Supreme Court judge.

1092
00:59:13,600 --> 00:59:16,840
Speaker 1: I'm thinking at two o'clock in the morning, with AI available,

1093
00:59:17,160 --> 00:59:20,440
Speaker 1: you know what's happening exactly.

1094
00:59:20,480 --> 00:59:24,200
Speaker 2: And look, you know we set exams or assignments now,

1095
00:59:24,240 --> 00:59:27,560
Speaker 2: which says, here's the problem. This is what AOI says.

1096
00:59:27,800 --> 00:59:29,320
Speaker 2: Criticize this response.

1097
00:59:29,440 --> 00:59:31,120
Speaker 1: Okay, so you know it's interesting.

1098
00:59:31,280 --> 00:59:33,200
Speaker 2: That's one way that you can get around it. Also,

1099
00:59:33,440 --> 00:59:35,720
Speaker 2: you know, in criminal law now we say to people,

1100
00:59:35,840 --> 00:59:38,760
Speaker 2: don't do an assignment on bayl law sentencing. You have

1101
00:59:38,840 --> 00:59:41,440
Speaker 2: to do a BAILA application and you have to do

1102
00:59:41,680 --> 00:59:45,600
Speaker 2: a sentencing. And so we do mock courts for assessment

1103
00:59:45,840 --> 00:59:49,280
Speaker 2: rather than an exam or an assignment. So look, you

1104
00:59:49,320 --> 00:59:52,360
Speaker 2: can do all that. But then I think to myself, well,

1105
00:59:52,760 --> 00:59:54,520
Speaker 2: if you really want people to learn criminal law, we

1106
00:59:54,520 --> 00:59:57,840
Speaker 2: aren't they working with legal aid or police prosecutions for

1107
00:59:57,880 --> 00:59:59,560
Speaker 2: six months that had learner.

1108
01:00:00,640 --> 01:00:03,120
Speaker 1: I like the way you're thinking, and until you raise it,

1109
01:00:03,200 --> 01:00:07,040
Speaker 1: I hadn't given it much thought on how to prepare

1110
01:00:07,360 --> 01:00:10,320
Speaker 1: for the future like that. But I suppose even as

1111
01:00:10,400 --> 01:00:13,280
Speaker 1: your career as a magistrate, you're an agent of change

1112
01:00:13,280 --> 01:00:17,320
Speaker 1: and pushing against some of the some of the more

1113
01:00:17,880 --> 01:00:23,000
Speaker 1: accepted practices of offensive behavior and different things. The future,

1114
01:00:23,200 --> 01:00:27,680
Speaker 1: the future of law. Do you think it's a career

1115
01:00:27,680 --> 01:00:30,400
Speaker 1: that you advise people to go into and what are

1116
01:00:30,400 --> 01:00:35,760
Speaker 1: the rewards for pursuing a career in law.

1117
01:00:36,240 --> 01:00:38,960
Speaker 2: One of the joys and pleasures of having been an

1118
01:00:39,040 --> 01:00:41,200
Speaker 2: academic and then a judicial officer is you get to

1119
01:00:41,200 --> 01:00:44,400
Speaker 2: see your students appearing in front of you, you know,

1120
01:00:44,560 --> 01:00:47,280
Speaker 2: and it was just wonderful. Occasional they'd bring books you'd

1121
01:00:47,280 --> 01:00:49,000
Speaker 2: written and put them on the bar table and think

1122
01:00:49,000 --> 01:00:52,920
Speaker 2: they're being very smart. But there is an enormous satisfaction

1123
01:00:52,960 --> 01:00:55,880
Speaker 2: I think in the practice of law. And the other

1124
01:00:55,920 --> 01:00:58,480
Speaker 2: thing is law degrees are really the new arts degree.

1125
01:00:58,840 --> 01:01:01,560
Speaker 2: There are no arts degrees at many universities now, and

1126
01:01:01,600 --> 01:01:04,360
Speaker 2: people do law as their base degree because it's such

1127
01:01:04,400 --> 01:01:07,040
Speaker 2: a great starting point. You know, if you didn't know

1128
01:01:07,040 --> 01:01:08,480
Speaker 2: what you wanted to do, you used to do an

1129
01:01:08,560 --> 01:01:11,479
Speaker 2: arts degree. Now I think, well, why wouldn't you do law?

1130
01:01:12,760 --> 01:01:14,880
Speaker 2: I guess a lot of people think to themselves, well,

1131
01:01:15,120 --> 01:01:16,960
Speaker 2: you know, I'm going to make more money as a plumber,

1132
01:01:17,000 --> 01:01:20,560
Speaker 2: and you might well, or I'm going to have bad

1133
01:01:20,560 --> 01:01:23,520
Speaker 2: off school holidays if I become a teacher, and you

1134
01:01:23,600 --> 01:01:27,800
Speaker 2: may well. But to me, at least, the satisfaction and

1135
01:01:27,840 --> 01:01:30,360
Speaker 2: seeing it in my students, the satisfaction and learning the

1136
01:01:30,440 --> 01:01:32,959
Speaker 2: law and applying it and trying to change the world

1137
01:01:32,960 --> 01:01:36,840
Speaker 2: to make it a better place, is enormously satisfying. So

1138
01:01:36,880 --> 01:01:40,880
Speaker 2: I would always encourage people to practice, to study law,

1139
01:01:40,960 --> 01:01:42,880
Speaker 2: and you know, if you don't like it, you'll soon

1140
01:01:42,960 --> 01:01:44,480
Speaker 2: know and you can go and do something else.

1141
01:01:45,240 --> 01:01:48,200
Speaker 1: Well, I get the sense that it served you well.

1142
01:01:48,480 --> 01:01:51,640
Speaker 1: You seem like you still have the joy for life

1143
01:01:51,640 --> 01:01:57,000
Speaker 1: and great future ahead of you. I'd like to thank

1144
01:01:57,040 --> 01:01:59,920
Speaker 1: you for coming on. I catchkillers. You're the second magist,

1145
01:02:00,440 --> 01:02:03,560
Speaker 1: but we had Hugh Dillon that I know you know,

1146
01:02:04,120 --> 01:02:06,560
Speaker 1: the coroner on there before. But I think you've given

1147
01:02:06,840 --> 01:02:09,960
Speaker 1: a fascinating insight because we talked about a lot of

1148
01:02:10,000 --> 01:02:13,360
Speaker 1: people don't know who the person is sitting on the bench,

1149
01:02:14,680 --> 01:02:16,880
Speaker 1: spent a lot of time sitting in the courts wondering

1150
01:02:16,960 --> 01:02:19,000
Speaker 1: what's going on in that person's mind. But you've given

1151
01:02:19,080 --> 01:02:22,080
Speaker 1: us a bit of insight into that. I think. I

1152
01:02:22,200 --> 01:02:24,600
Speaker 1: mean this sincerely too. I'd like to thank you for

1153
01:02:24,640 --> 01:02:29,120
Speaker 1: the service that you've brought to the communities, because someone

1154
01:02:29,160 --> 01:02:32,720
Speaker 1: that's got some humanity and empathy in them, sitting in

1155
01:02:32,760 --> 01:02:35,280
Speaker 1: a position of power like you have as a magistrate

1156
01:02:35,720 --> 01:02:39,320
Speaker 1: is so important. I think you really make a potentially

1157
01:02:39,360 --> 01:02:43,040
Speaker 1: make a difference the fact you understand crime when these

1158
01:02:43,080 --> 01:02:46,000
Speaker 1: people are saying, yeah, what would they know, it's never

1159
01:02:46,040 --> 01:02:48,760
Speaker 1: happened to them. You understand the impact it has, and

1160
01:02:48,800 --> 01:02:53,200
Speaker 1: I think that's so important. So congratulations on an impressive

1161
01:02:53,240 --> 01:02:57,840
Speaker 1: career and a future educating lawyers in the right direction.

1162
01:02:58,720 --> 01:03:01,120
Speaker 2: Thanks so much. Has been real pleasure talking to you,

1163
01:03:01,200 --> 01:03:05,400
Speaker 2: and obviously our shared experience in these things makes for

1164
01:03:05,560 --> 01:03:07,800
Speaker 2: a great base of knowledge. I've certainly learned things too,

1165
01:03:07,840 --> 01:03:10,280
Speaker 2: so it's been great. And I'll come back in a

1166
01:03:10,280 --> 01:03:13,080
Speaker 2: few years once I've done that research on children being

1167
01:03:13,160 --> 01:03:16,160
Speaker 2: victims of crime then committing crimes. We'll talk about that.

1168
01:03:16,520 --> 01:03:19,320
Speaker 1: Okay, we'll booked the studio. I'll just check the calendar.

1169
01:03:19,360 --> 01:03:22,680
Speaker 1: We'll get that sorted out. But thanks very much and

1170
01:03:23,000 --> 01:03:24,880
Speaker 1: all the best, David, sincerely.

1171
01:03:24,600 --> 01:03:25,440
Speaker 2: Thanks very much.

1172
01:03:25,720 --> 01:03:26,000
Speaker 1: Cheers,