WEBVTT - The hanging judge's Plan B 0:00:02.000 --> 0:00:04.240 Redmond Barry very nobly just held his gun in the 0:00:04.280 --> 0:00:05.960 air and fired away. But it sort of gives an 0:00:06.000 --> 0:00:08.680 insight into his character, I guess, and the fact that 0:00:08.720 --> 0:00:11.520 he would be involved in such an archaic thing as 0:00:11.520 --> 0:00:13.760 a jewel, but also this idea of honor. 0:00:17.239 --> 0:00:19.360 I'm Jen Kelly from the Herald Son and this is 0:00:19.360 --> 0:00:22.200 in Black and White, a podcast about some of Australia's 0:00:22.239 --> 0:00:26.319 forgotten characters. So Redmond Barry is best remembered as the 0:00:26.440 --> 0:00:30.319 judge who sent Ned Kelly to the gallows. However, there's 0:00:30.400 --> 0:00:33.440 much more to the tale of the founding father of 0:00:33.560 --> 0:00:38.360 many of Melbourne's major institutions, from Melbourne University to the 0:00:38.400 --> 0:00:42.280 State Library of Victoria. But as we'll hear today, Redmond 0:00:42.320 --> 0:00:46.199 Barry had no intention of making Melbourne his home when 0:00:46.200 --> 0:00:49.760 he set off from Ireland to Australia as a young 0:00:49.840 --> 0:00:53.200 lawyer with big ambitions. It was only when he became 0:00:53.320 --> 0:00:57.760 embroiled in a scandal en route to Australia that Melbourne 0:00:57.760 --> 0:01:01.720 became his plan. B tell us the story. We welcome 0:01:01.800 --> 0:01:07.280 back State Library Victoria Reference Librarian Andrew McConville. 0:01:09.200 --> 0:01:12.360 Welcome back to the podcast, Andrew, Thanks very much. 0:01:12.440 --> 0:01:13.959 Jen. It's so nice to be here again. 0:01:14.800 --> 0:01:18.640 Now, Redmond Barry is certainly not exactly a forgotten character. 0:01:18.840 --> 0:01:21.120 So tell us, why have you chosen him for us 0:01:21.160 --> 0:01:22.039 to chat about today. 0:01:22.880 --> 0:01:27.400 Well, I think he's certainly remembered mainly for presiding over 0:01:27.440 --> 0:01:30.199 the trial of Ned Kelly, and I think that's probably 0:01:30.600 --> 0:01:34.360 an underestimation of him, because really he made a massive 0:01:34.400 --> 0:01:38.120 contribution to Melbourne and the development of Melbourne as a 0:01:38.160 --> 0:01:40.520 great city, and I think too often that's sort of 0:01:40.520 --> 0:01:44.040 forgotten and overshadowed by his work as a judge and 0:01:44.120 --> 0:01:46.240 his work on that particularly famous trial. 0:01:47.480 --> 0:01:49.480 So let's go back to the beginning. Tell us about 0:01:49.480 --> 0:01:50.520 his early life. 0:01:50.920 --> 0:01:54.320 Well, he was Irish but Anglo Irish, so he was 0:01:54.760 --> 0:01:57.800 part of that upper class in Ireland who had I mean, 0:01:57.800 --> 0:02:00.480 he could trace his family back a long way Ireland, 0:02:00.480 --> 0:02:04.120 but they had originally come over, I think with William 0:02:04.120 --> 0:02:06.120 the Conqueror, so they had a long history in Ireland. 0:02:06.120 --> 0:02:09.440 But they were part of the landed gentry in Ireland. 0:02:09.600 --> 0:02:13.760 So in Ireland at that time, the basically the Irish 0:02:13.880 --> 0:02:16.840 Catholics owned you know, maybe a couple of percent of 0:02:16.880 --> 0:02:19.040 the land. Virtually all of the land was owned by 0:02:19.600 --> 0:02:23.240 English or Irish. Many of whom were absentee land goods. 0:02:23.240 --> 0:02:27.280 But raben Berry's family had owned farming land there for 0:02:27.680 --> 0:02:32.880 generations and they basically survived on the rents paid by 0:02:32.919 --> 0:02:35.840 their tenants, so they weren't particularly affluent. They were part 0:02:35.840 --> 0:02:38.480 of the ruling class, but they weren't a particularly affluent family, 0:02:38.800 --> 0:02:42.560 but they were also a family that was did have land, 0:02:42.600 --> 0:02:46.040 so that made them ay in the upper upper levels 0:02:46.040 --> 0:02:49.480 of that society. And he wasn't the first born son 0:02:49.520 --> 0:02:52.800 and basically the firstborn son would inherit the land, so 0:02:53.639 --> 0:02:55.680 as the third born son. While he did go to 0:02:56.320 --> 0:02:59.440 boarding school in England, there was a great tradition of 0:02:59.639 --> 0:03:02.200 joining the army. His father had been in the army 0:03:02.200 --> 0:03:05.200 and have retired to the farm, so it was thought 0:03:05.200 --> 0:03:08.400 that he would become an army officer. But when he 0:03:09.440 --> 0:03:14.000 graduated from school, there weren't many commissions around. Actually Europe 0:03:14.000 --> 0:03:16.080 was actually pretty peaceful at that stage. It was after 0:03:16.120 --> 0:03:19.360 the Napoleonic Wars and before Crimea, so it was a 0:03:19.400 --> 0:03:21.800 period of peace, so there wasn't many commissions in the army. 0:03:22.320 --> 0:03:25.440 And he studied at Trinity College and did become a 0:03:25.480 --> 0:03:29.960 barrister and was admitted to the Irish bar in eighteen 0:03:30.040 --> 0:03:32.480 thirty eight, so that became his career. 0:03:33.720 --> 0:03:36.960 And was he always quite intellectual as a young man. 0:03:37.360 --> 0:03:40.080 Well, he was, but he was also I mean he 0:03:40.160 --> 0:03:43.080 was as a young man. He was apparently quite a 0:03:43.120 --> 0:03:46.240 good looking young man. He was always fairly interested in 0:03:46.960 --> 0:03:48.800 the amorous side of life, I've got to say, as 0:03:48.840 --> 0:03:50.960 we'll hear about a bit later. But he was also 0:03:51.040 --> 0:03:53.160 a good sportsman, and I guess growing up on a farm, 0:03:53.200 --> 0:03:56.160 he was a strong swimmer, he was a good horse rider, 0:03:56.760 --> 0:03:59.160 and he did enjoy those pursuits. But he was also 0:04:00.160 --> 0:04:03.480 someone who was I guess quite intellectual and someone who 0:04:03.520 --> 0:04:07.480 did love the sort of classical education that traditionally had 0:04:07.520 --> 0:04:10.440 existed in England. So he was drawn to that and 0:04:10.480 --> 0:04:12.800 he did, over his life have a great commitment to 0:04:12.880 --> 0:04:14.960 I guess culture and to education. 0:04:16.040 --> 0:04:19.279 And was he actually working as a barrister in Ireland 0:04:19.360 --> 0:04:21.560 or did he not need to work at that stage? 0:04:21.720 --> 0:04:25.080 I was certainly needed to work, so he needed to 0:04:25.120 --> 0:04:27.760 make his own way in life. And as I say, 0:04:27.800 --> 0:04:32.359 they weren't a particularly affluent family, so it wasn't a 0:04:32.400 --> 0:04:34.560 really wealthy family where he could just live off the 0:04:34.600 --> 0:04:36.440 family money. So he did need to make his own 0:04:36.480 --> 0:04:39.120 way in life, and what he found was that there 0:04:39.160 --> 0:04:42.120 were a lot of lawyers in Ireland and not quite 0:04:42.160 --> 0:04:45.200 so much work to keep them all busy. So fairly 0:04:45.240 --> 0:04:48.120 soon after he was admitted to the Irish Bar he 0:04:48.160 --> 0:04:51.440 did make the decision to emigrate to Australia, which was 0:04:51.960 --> 0:04:56.279 probably for someone like him, was an opportunity to come 0:04:56.320 --> 0:04:58.960 to a fairly fledgling British colony where there would be 0:04:59.440 --> 0:05:04.480 many more opportunities as I established a judicial system for lawyers, 0:05:04.520 --> 0:05:07.799 and for lawyers to go on and to be fully successful, 0:05:07.800 --> 0:05:10.400 perhaps become judges. So I think that was what was 0:05:10.440 --> 0:05:12.279 in his mind when he decided to emigrate. 0:05:13.320 --> 0:05:15.600 So he just came out on his own, and he 0:05:15.600 --> 0:05:17.320 would have been what in his twenties by. 0:05:17.200 --> 0:05:20.280 Then, exactly, Yes, I think he was twenty six when 0:05:20.320 --> 0:05:22.719 he came out to Australia, and as I say, that 0:05:22.800 --> 0:05:26.240 was about within a year really of graduating, and he 0:05:26.279 --> 0:05:29.160 did come out on his own. He was traveling in 0:05:29.160 --> 0:05:31.040 a bit of style. He was in the cabin class, 0:05:31.040 --> 0:05:33.680 so he had his own cabin, so certainly much different 0:05:33.680 --> 0:05:36.640 to a lot of the people coming to Australia. But yes, 0:05:36.680 --> 0:05:39.280 so his idea was that he would go to Sydney, 0:05:39.320 --> 0:05:42.520 and he would have make himself known to the important 0:05:42.520 --> 0:05:46.680 people in Sydney and hopefully launch a successful judicial career. 0:05:48.160 --> 0:05:50.080 Now I believe that he was involved in a bit 0:05:50.120 --> 0:05:53.160 of a scandal on his trip out to Australia. Can 0:05:53.160 --> 0:05:53.960 you tell us about that? 0:05:54.520 --> 0:05:57.640 Yes, he certainly was. He did have a great eye 0:05:57.720 --> 0:06:01.760 for the ladies and was someone who did conduct a 0:06:01.880 --> 0:06:05.320 number of love affairs, and he was normally fairly discreet 0:06:05.440 --> 0:06:09.240 about that. But the journey to Melbourne to Sydney was 0:06:09.680 --> 0:06:11.640 four months, so it was a long time on the ship, 0:06:11.920 --> 0:06:14.440 and he did start an affair with a married woman 0:06:14.480 --> 0:06:17.080 on the ship, which was fairly hard to keep secret 0:06:17.160 --> 0:06:23.240 and became common knowledge. The lady involved her husband had 0:06:23.240 --> 0:06:25.719 to remove from his cabin and put in a separate cabin, 0:06:26.920 --> 0:06:31.000 and Redmond Barry became persona non grata on the ship 0:06:31.080 --> 0:06:34.080 as this affair quite a flagrant affair that he didn't 0:06:34.080 --> 0:06:37.359 actually seize for the entire journey and didn't seem to 0:06:37.360 --> 0:06:40.720 worry too much about it. But yes, he did become 0:06:40.800 --> 0:06:43.280 very notorious on the ship and that didn't do him 0:06:43.279 --> 0:06:45.080 any favors when they landed in Sydney. 0:06:46.320 --> 0:06:47.880 And how did this affect his career? 0:06:47.920 --> 0:06:52.080 Prospects well, basically the various people that he thought he 0:06:52.120 --> 0:06:55.599 would be being introduced to and would impress, people like 0:06:55.640 --> 0:06:59.000 the governor and other important people. They heard about the 0:06:59.040 --> 0:07:02.320 affair before he had a chance to meet them, and 0:07:02.360 --> 0:07:05.520 he found that he in that sort of ruling class 0:07:05.680 --> 0:07:09.840 of New South Wales. He was not probably going to 0:07:09.840 --> 0:07:13.800 get ahead because his reputation was very poor because of 0:07:13.880 --> 0:07:16.880 his behavior on the ship, and so he fairly quickly 0:07:16.920 --> 0:07:20.240 made the decision that he would not say in Sydney, 0:07:20.280 --> 0:07:22.640 he would head to Melbourne. And it was a very, 0:07:22.800 --> 0:07:26.200 very small and undistinguished Melbourne that he was heading to 0:07:26.240 --> 0:07:27.440 in eighteen thirty nine. 0:07:27.720 --> 0:07:29.160 So can you give us a bit more of a 0:07:29.200 --> 0:07:31.880 description what Melbourne was like at that time? 0:07:32.720 --> 0:07:36.520 Certainly? Yes. In fact, the famous journalist Edmund Finn, who 0:07:36.560 --> 0:07:39.240 wrote under the name Gary Owen and wrote a very 0:07:39.240 --> 0:07:42.080 famous book about early Melbourne called The Chronicles Early Chronicles 0:07:42.120 --> 0:07:44.840 of Melbourne, he has this great description of Melbourne in 0:07:44.920 --> 0:07:48.320 eighteen forty, just after Redmond Barry arrived. I mean at 0:07:48.360 --> 0:07:52.680 that time it was a town really just a settlement 0:07:52.720 --> 0:07:55.160 of only about three thousand people, so it was tiny. 0:07:55.880 --> 0:07:59.000 And Gary Owen says that Melbourne in eighteen forty was 0:07:59.000 --> 0:08:02.000 certainly not a city and could hardly be called a town, 0:08:02.680 --> 0:08:05.280 nor did it even partake of the characteristics of a 0:08:05.360 --> 0:08:07.760 village or a hamlet. It was a kind of big 0:08:07.840 --> 0:08:12.600 settlement and groups pitched here and there, with houses, sheds 0:08:12.640 --> 0:08:15.800 and tents in clusters or scattered in ones and twos. 0:08:17.400 --> 0:08:20.040 There were several brick built houses and a few weatherboard 0:08:20.040 --> 0:08:24.160 cottages with some though not much pretension to comfort, but 0:08:24.280 --> 0:08:28.000 the majority of the business or residential tenements were made 0:08:28.080 --> 0:08:31.760 up of colonial wattle and daub roofed with sheets of 0:08:31.800 --> 0:08:35.640 bark or coarse shingles. During winter, the streets were chains 0:08:35.640 --> 0:08:38.040 of water holes, and the traffic had to be suspended 0:08:38.080 --> 0:08:42.880 in places. So it was very much a frontier settlement 0:08:43.160 --> 0:08:47.160 and a lot lot different than it developed as the 0:08:47.200 --> 0:08:49.920 gold Rush and many more people came in. So when 0:08:50.000 --> 0:08:52.800 Ribbon Barry arrived, it was very very early in the 0:08:52.840 --> 0:08:55.560 settlement of Melbourne and it was very much a frontier settlement. 0:08:56.200 --> 0:08:59.080 It's hard to imagine how different that was from what 0:08:59.200 --> 0:09:01.240 Redmond Barry had left behind in Ireland. 0:09:02.080 --> 0:09:05.200 Absolutely, and as I say, his expectations would have been 0:09:05.720 --> 0:09:08.520 going to Sydney, which again was not a you know, 0:09:09.280 --> 0:09:12.319 had been settled at that stage for almost fifty years, 0:09:12.360 --> 0:09:14.080 so it was much different to Melbourne, and it was 0:09:14.160 --> 0:09:17.400 quite established and it was sort of the powerful center 0:09:18.040 --> 0:09:20.880 of the colonies in Australia. So he would have had 0:09:20.920 --> 0:09:24.680 no expectation of arriving in this dusty, little frontier village, 0:09:25.080 --> 0:09:27.320 but that's where he ended up, and in some ways 0:09:27.360 --> 0:09:31.440 that was fortuitous because he was able to become quite 0:09:31.440 --> 0:09:35.640 an influential person in this very very small fish bowl 0:09:35.679 --> 0:09:36.199 of a town. 0:09:36.679 --> 0:09:38.840 So of course, by the time Redmond Barry has had 0:09:38.880 --> 0:09:42.000 to pay for his fair boy ship from Sydney to Melbourne, 0:09:42.040 --> 0:09:44.960 he's used up even more of his last money. So 0:09:45.280 --> 0:09:47.439 I imagine he was pretty brute by the time he's 0:09:47.520 --> 0:09:48.600 arrived in Melbourne. 0:09:49.080 --> 0:09:51.880 Yes he was. He had a fairly difficult trip to 0:09:51.920 --> 0:09:53.679 Melbourn too, It was very rough seas and took them 0:09:53.679 --> 0:09:56.080 a while to get to port. But he certainly was 0:09:56.160 --> 0:09:59.160 never someone who was a particularly wealthy man, even later 0:09:59.200 --> 0:10:03.080 in his life, and someone who actively pursued wealth in 0:10:03.120 --> 0:10:05.400 the way that some of the other settlers did. But 0:10:05.480 --> 0:10:08.240 certainly he had some savings, but they went fairly quickly 0:10:08.280 --> 0:10:12.040 and so he did find work as a lawyer, but 0:10:12.120 --> 0:10:14.960 he wasn't you know, It was a very scrabble sort 0:10:15.000 --> 0:10:19.200 of type of position that he had. He was making 0:10:19.240 --> 0:10:21.240 a little bit of a name for himself because partly 0:10:21.280 --> 0:10:23.280 there wasn't a lot of competition, but also there wasn't 0:10:23.720 --> 0:10:25.880 a huge amount of work, and he lived in very 0:10:25.920 --> 0:10:30.560 modest little cottage in Burke Street initially, and it wasn't 0:10:30.600 --> 0:10:35.880 really until Victoria became a separate colony that the sort 0:10:35.920 --> 0:10:40.240 of more affluent or higher paying jobs, more responsible jobs 0:10:40.320 --> 0:10:43.040 came about. But one of the things that was notable 0:10:43.080 --> 0:10:47.080 in those early days was that he, unlike most of 0:10:47.080 --> 0:10:49.679 the European settlers, most of the colonial settlers, he did 0:10:49.720 --> 0:10:53.320 have great empathy for the Aboriginal people and he did 0:10:53.520 --> 0:10:57.120 represent them in various encounters with the law, both in 0:10:57.200 --> 0:11:01.000 times when they were victims of attack and also when 0:11:01.040 --> 0:11:05.080 they had been charged with European laws. And so while 0:11:05.160 --> 0:11:07.640 ultimately he wasn't able to do an enormous amount of 0:11:07.640 --> 0:11:10.000 good there, he certainly wasn't through want of trying. So 0:11:10.080 --> 0:11:13.400 he did. He's a very interesting and different sort of 0:11:13.400 --> 0:11:15.679 person in that he had a lot of contradictions in 0:11:16.000 --> 0:11:19.000 his manner, but certainly he was someone who did have 0:11:19.080 --> 0:11:22.080 a much more empathy for the Aboriginals and did work 0:11:22.160 --> 0:11:24.160 very hard for them in a way that most of 0:11:24.200 --> 0:11:25.320 the other colonists didn't. 0:11:26.920 --> 0:11:30.600 Now how did his career progress over the following years. 0:11:30.880 --> 0:11:33.319 Well, as I say he, I mean one interesting point 0:11:33.320 --> 0:11:35.880 too that probably gives an interesting insight into his character 0:11:36.000 --> 0:11:38.960 and into the sort of wild West nature of Melbourne 0:11:39.000 --> 0:11:42.920 was that in eighteen forty one he was actually challenged 0:11:42.960 --> 0:11:46.640 to a duel for supposedly a derogdory comment he made 0:11:46.679 --> 0:11:50.120 about a chap called Petas Snodgrass. And so they met 0:11:50.160 --> 0:11:54.240 down on the foreshore near Albert Park and Peters Snodgrass 0:11:54.440 --> 0:11:56.560 had actually been in a couple of duels and had 0:11:56.559 --> 0:11:58.880 almost shot himself in the foot in the previous duel, 0:11:58.880 --> 0:12:00.720 and he did this with rebend Bar too. He fired 0:12:00.760 --> 0:12:04.200 his gun into the ground accidentally, and so Redmond Burry 0:12:04.280 --> 0:12:06.120 very nobly just held his gun in the air and 0:12:06.160 --> 0:12:08.240 fired away. But it sort of gives an insight into 0:12:08.720 --> 0:12:10.800 his character, I guess, and the fact that he would 0:12:11.000 --> 0:12:13.560 be involved in such an archaic thing as a duel, 0:12:13.920 --> 0:12:16.720 but also this idea of honor. But yeah, for those 0:12:16.800 --> 0:12:20.800 the aden forties, really he worked as a lawyer. He 0:12:22.840 --> 0:12:26.839 fairly represent various cases. He was hoping to get a 0:12:26.920 --> 0:12:32.640 higher position in the government as it was established. But 0:12:33.160 --> 0:12:36.760 really he probably came into his own as many people 0:12:36.800 --> 0:12:40.680 did after Aden fifty one, when firstly gold was discovered 0:12:40.679 --> 0:12:43.920 and also when Victoria became its own colony, and so 0:12:44.400 --> 0:12:46.920 the judicial process then was set up in Victoria where 0:12:46.920 --> 0:12:48.920 you had a Supreme Court, and at that point he 0:12:49.360 --> 0:12:52.120 became a Supreme Court judge, and that's where his career 0:12:52.640 --> 0:12:55.079 really took off and where he became a very influential 0:12:55.120 --> 0:12:58.400 person in Melbourne as Melbourne very very rapidly developed. 0:12:58.640 --> 0:13:02.040 And Andrew, can you tell us about political views. 0:13:01.840 --> 0:13:05.199 Well, he was, as I say, he'd come from a conservative, 0:13:05.520 --> 0:13:08.600 ruling class background and that never left him. He really, 0:13:08.880 --> 0:13:10.200 I mean, he was very much a man of the 0:13:10.320 --> 0:13:13.080 early nineteenth century and perhaps eighteenth century in terms of 0:13:13.080 --> 0:13:16.760 his attitudes, rather than the latter part of the nineteenth centuries. 0:13:16.800 --> 0:13:21.040 So obviously, after the American War of Independence and after 0:13:21.080 --> 0:13:24.680 the French Revolution the idea of democracy was taking hold. 0:13:25.160 --> 0:13:29.040 He was certainly not a democrat. He at one stage 0:13:29.120 --> 0:13:33.440 did consider running for the Legislative Council in Victoria, but 0:13:33.840 --> 0:13:35.720 that was just as he was appointed as a judge. 0:13:35.760 --> 0:13:37.400 So he didn't go ahead with that, but he did 0:13:37.880 --> 0:13:39.960 publish his views in the paper, and one of the 0:13:39.960 --> 0:13:42.640 things that he was very strong on was that he said, 0:13:42.800 --> 0:13:46.800 I will resolutely oppose universal suffrage and vote by ballots. 0:13:46.880 --> 0:13:50.520 So he had this idea of this benign ruling class 0:13:50.559 --> 0:13:53.960 that had the wisdom to provide good leadership to everybody, 0:13:54.000 --> 0:13:58.320 but that he certainly wasn't in favor of one well, 0:13:58.360 --> 0:14:01.160 one person, one vote, certainly wasn't in favor of women 0:14:01.200 --> 0:14:03.120 having the vote, but he certainly wasn't in favor of 0:14:03.760 --> 0:14:07.760 men having the vote either. So he wasn't a Democrat 0:14:07.800 --> 0:14:12.520 in any way. He was very conservative in his political views, although, 0:14:12.559 --> 0:14:14.439 as I say, he was a man of contrast, So 0:14:14.880 --> 0:14:17.679 in some ways he could be quite radical in his 0:14:18.320 --> 0:14:23.440 representation for the Aboriginals and in some of the benevolent 0:14:23.480 --> 0:14:26.760 things he did for people. But as a judge and 0:14:26.800 --> 0:14:30.000 as his political views were very conservative. 0:14:30.760 --> 0:14:33.080 We'll be back right after this short break to hear 0:14:33.120 --> 0:14:35.120 more about Redmond Barry's private life. 0:14:35.240 --> 0:14:36.600 So stay with us. 0:14:40.000 --> 0:14:42.080 Now let's talk about his private life. We talked earlier 0:14:42.080 --> 0:14:44.160 about his eye for the ladies. Was he like that 0:14:44.280 --> 0:14:47.400 throughout his life with a stringham of romances or did 0:14:47.400 --> 0:14:48.440 he get married. 0:14:48.600 --> 0:14:52.400 Well, he didn't ever get married, and he probably he 0:14:52.560 --> 0:14:55.520 certainly had an eye for the ladies and had various affairs. 0:14:55.520 --> 0:14:58.160 It's hard to know much about them, really, He just 0:14:58.240 --> 0:15:02.800 cryptically mentions various women in his diaries. But his main, 0:15:02.880 --> 0:15:05.160 the main love of his life, in his main relationship 0:15:05.360 --> 0:15:09.320 was with an Irish woman, Louis a Barrow, who was 0:15:09.320 --> 0:15:11.600 actually married when he met her, and married when I 0:15:11.640 --> 0:15:15.600 think she bore several of his children. Her husband seemed 0:15:15.640 --> 0:15:19.800 to just disappear. She was Irish, Catholic, and Irish of 0:15:20.000 --> 0:15:24.280 a more working class, certainly not having the same educational 0:15:24.280 --> 0:15:29.440 opportunities as Redmond Barry. Now. They remained in a relationship 0:15:29.480 --> 0:15:32.400 for the rest of Redmond Barry's life, and he always 0:15:32.440 --> 0:15:36.080 provided for her, and he acknowledged his children, but he 0:15:36.160 --> 0:15:40.000 also didn't ever live with her. They had houses nearby 0:15:40.560 --> 0:15:45.360 each other which he paid for. Also, later he purchased 0:15:45.360 --> 0:15:48.000 several farms. Actually I think I live on one of 0:15:48.040 --> 0:15:50.600 his farms here in matt Waverley, though just in matt 0:15:50.600 --> 0:15:54.480 Waverley along High Street. But he purchased adjoining farms, one 0:15:54.480 --> 0:15:56.480 of which was sort of his and one was for 0:15:57.080 --> 0:15:59.560 always a Barrow. But mainly managed by their son. But 0:16:00.080 --> 0:16:01.800 so it was a little bit of a stranger, quite 0:16:01.840 --> 0:16:05.800 a controversial personal life in particularly in the second half 0:16:05.840 --> 0:16:08.640 of the nineteenth century, when there was a much more 0:16:08.960 --> 0:16:13.680 i guess, straightened view of morality. So while and most 0:16:13.720 --> 0:16:17.440 people knew of his relationship, even though he didn't really 0:16:17.480 --> 0:16:21.040 publicize it. He didn't appear in public with Luisa Barrow really, 0:16:21.120 --> 0:16:24.600 but everybody knew that to an extent they were almost 0:16:24.640 --> 0:16:26.680 living together and they certainly were in a relationship that 0:16:26.720 --> 0:16:31.120 produced four children and a relationship that was maintained lifelong. 0:16:31.240 --> 0:16:33.480 But yeah, so it was sort of out of step 0:16:33.520 --> 0:16:37.840 with I guess the morality of Victorian or that Victorian 0:16:37.880 --> 0:16:39.800 era of colonial Victoria. 0:16:41.600 --> 0:16:44.840 Now let's talk about Redmond Barry as a judge, because 0:16:44.880 --> 0:16:47.720 that's how he's best known. So is it fair to 0:16:47.760 --> 0:16:52.320 say that he had a reputation for being pretty harsh. 0:16:51.200 --> 0:16:53.600 Well, he did, yes, I think from his point of view, 0:16:53.680 --> 0:16:58.600 his attitude was that the Australian colonies had started as 0:16:58.640 --> 0:17:02.760 a jail and he was concerned about crime. And then 0:17:02.800 --> 0:17:05.159 after the I think at the time of the gold 0:17:05.240 --> 0:17:07.399 Rush about eight and fifty eight and fifty one, there 0:17:07.400 --> 0:17:10.080 was about thirty people in jail, and then a year 0:17:10.119 --> 0:17:12.639 later there was one thousand people in jail. So with 0:17:12.720 --> 0:17:16.919 the gold Rush, with the enormous increase in population, and 0:17:17.000 --> 0:17:21.480 also with even though convicts weren't transported to Victoria, a 0:17:21.520 --> 0:17:23.639 lot of escape convicts and also a lot of convicts 0:17:23.680 --> 0:17:27.280 who had served their time were obviously very attracted to Victoria. 0:17:27.359 --> 0:17:30.000 And also where there's great wealth, there's obviously crime. So 0:17:30.119 --> 0:17:32.560 he was very harsh, and he felt that he was 0:17:32.600 --> 0:17:35.879 harsh because he wanted to take Melbourne away from being 0:17:36.240 --> 0:17:39.120 a wild frontier town to being a very cultured European 0:17:39.160 --> 0:17:44.639 style city. But generally was felt that he often his 0:17:44.960 --> 0:17:49.800 representation as a judge perhaps pushed duries to find people guilty, 0:17:49.840 --> 0:17:53.240 and he was quite harsh in his punishments, although ironically 0:17:53.320 --> 0:17:56.919 he presided over the trial of many of the Eureka 0:17:57.000 --> 0:17:59.440 rebels and they were all found not guilty. One thing 0:17:59.440 --> 0:18:03.040 to point out, too, is that he wasn't making the 0:18:03.119 --> 0:18:05.479 judgments of guilt or not guilt that was made by 0:18:05.520 --> 0:18:08.359 a jury. So there were jury trials, but obviously the 0:18:08.440 --> 0:18:12.359 judge has great influence in directing a jury. He was 0:18:12.400 --> 0:18:17.359 involved in the trial of some prisoners who murdered an 0:18:17.400 --> 0:18:21.080 overseer called John Price, who had been very violent overseer 0:18:21.080 --> 0:18:23.480 at Norfolk Island, and then he was in Melbourne overseeing 0:18:24.000 --> 0:18:27.800 prisoners who were kept in ships on Hobson's Bay at 0:18:27.800 --> 0:18:30.879 Williamstown and were in work gangs, and they had a 0:18:30.920 --> 0:18:32.720 complaint and he went down to speak to them about 0:18:32.720 --> 0:18:36.360 it and they surrounded him and when they dispersed, he'd 0:18:36.400 --> 0:18:40.320 actually been killed. And I think Redmond Barry had quite 0:18:40.359 --> 0:18:43.000 a few of them those men hung. It was a 0:18:43.080 --> 0:18:46.760 letter of the law that capital punishment was punished by hanging. 0:18:46.840 --> 0:18:49.560 But yeah, he did have a reputation for being quite 0:18:49.600 --> 0:18:54.320 a stern judge and someone who tended to err on 0:18:54.359 --> 0:18:58.200 the side of punishment rather than rehabilitation. 0:19:00.320 --> 0:19:02.960 Now, the most famous trial level tell us about the 0:19:02.960 --> 0:19:05.199 Ned Kelly trial in Redmond Barry's role in it. 0:19:05.800 --> 0:19:08.280 Well, he's certainly most well known for that, and I 0:19:08.280 --> 0:19:11.800 think that's probably slightly unfair. I mean, I think if 0:19:11.800 --> 0:19:15.240 you read about it, and you read current lawyers accounts 0:19:15.320 --> 0:19:19.520 of the trial, they would find various areas where Redmond Barry, 0:19:19.560 --> 0:19:23.000 as the judge, was directing the jury in a way 0:19:23.040 --> 0:19:27.520 that indicated that he decided ned was guilty beforehand. And look, 0:19:27.560 --> 0:19:30.160 I think it's fair to say that Ned had shot 0:19:30.200 --> 0:19:33.000 three policemen and rob Watson Banks, so he probably wasn't 0:19:33.440 --> 0:19:36.080 ever going to be fair not guilty, but the murder 0:19:36.119 --> 0:19:39.000 he was that they're originally charged with when he was 0:19:39.240 --> 0:19:42.240 for shooting one of the policeman's Stringy barck Creek. You know, 0:19:42.480 --> 0:19:44.760 the defense was really about whether he was acting in 0:19:44.760 --> 0:19:47.960 self defense. But even then, when you shoot policemen, I'm 0:19:48.000 --> 0:19:50.159 not sure what case you have. But he did have 0:19:50.200 --> 0:19:53.720 a very experienced counsel, whereas the prosecutors were very experienced. 0:19:54.119 --> 0:19:57.040 But I think the main criticism of Redmond Barry was 0:19:57.080 --> 0:20:02.919 that he probably again was someone who tended to direct 0:20:02.920 --> 0:20:05.520 the jury in a way that made them push towards 0:20:05.680 --> 0:20:08.280 a guilt verdict. The other thing was that he did 0:20:08.760 --> 0:20:12.520 have the trial move from Beechworth, where generally it would 0:20:12.560 --> 0:20:14.960 have been held because that's where the crimes were committed 0:20:15.000 --> 0:20:16.960 in that area. I mean, he had it moved to 0:20:17.000 --> 0:20:20.040 Melbourne where there would be a less sympathetic jury in 0:20:20.119 --> 0:20:23.760 Beechworth near Kelly probably got a pretty sympathetic jury, but again, 0:20:23.800 --> 0:20:26.320 I mean he was found guilty by a jury, not 0:20:26.440 --> 0:20:29.399 by the judge, and the penalty for a capital crime 0:20:29.520 --> 0:20:32.439 like that was death. So I think in a way 0:20:33.240 --> 0:20:35.600 it's quite unfair that that's the only or the main 0:20:35.680 --> 0:20:38.760 reason people remember him, and he is vilified for that. 0:20:39.440 --> 0:20:41.159 I'm not sure if that's completely fair. 0:20:43.119 --> 0:20:47.199 Now, tell us about his significant contribution to Melbourne's cultural 0:20:47.240 --> 0:20:48.280 life over the decades. 0:20:48.960 --> 0:20:52.119 Well, his main He did make massive contributions to the 0:20:52.119 --> 0:20:56.280 cultural and educational life of Melbourne, and he very strongly 0:20:56.320 --> 0:20:58.879 felt that he wanted to turn Melbourne the Melbourne he 0:20:59.359 --> 0:21:02.320 originally there's this tiny little village and he wanted to 0:21:02.320 --> 0:21:04.199 turn it into one of the world's great cities. And 0:21:04.240 --> 0:21:08.080 obviously the gold Rush brought the money into make great buildings. 0:21:08.119 --> 0:21:11.160 But he was pretty altruistic. He wasn't someone that pursued 0:21:11.200 --> 0:21:13.400 personal wealth in the way as I say that many 0:21:13.400 --> 0:21:17.520 of his colleagues did. And he's most famous for being 0:21:17.880 --> 0:21:22.199 very key person in establishing the Melbourne University and also 0:21:22.520 --> 0:21:25.080 the well what we call now the State Library Victoria, 0:21:25.119 --> 0:21:28.000 which was then called the Melbourne Public Library. Both of 0:21:28.040 --> 0:21:32.919 the foundation stones for those were laid in Aden fifty 0:21:32.920 --> 0:21:36.360 four and the Melbourne University started classes the next year 0:21:36.400 --> 0:21:41.359 and the library opened in Aden fifty six. Very grand buildings, 0:21:41.400 --> 0:21:44.480 I mean the library still has the beautiful Queen's Hall 0:21:44.560 --> 0:21:47.760 that was the original part of the library from Aden 0:21:47.840 --> 0:21:50.880 fifty six, so a very very grand building for quite 0:21:50.920 --> 0:21:54.800 a fledgling city. And his view of the library and 0:21:54.840 --> 0:21:57.359 the university. Even though the university started with a handful 0:21:57.400 --> 0:22:00.520