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Speaker 1: Redmond Barry very nobly just held his gun in the

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Speaker 1: air and fired away. But it sort of gives an

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Speaker 1: insight into his character, I guess, and the fact that

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Speaker 1: he would be involved in such an archaic thing as

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Speaker 1: a jewel, but also this idea of honor.

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Speaker 2: I'm Jen Kelly from the Herald Son and this is

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Speaker 2: in Black and White, a podcast about some of Australia's

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Speaker 2: forgotten characters. So Redmond Barry is best remembered as the

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Speaker 2: judge who sent Ned Kelly to the gallows. However, there's

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Speaker 2: much more to the tale of the founding father of

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Speaker 2: many of Melbourne's major institutions, from Melbourne University to the

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Speaker 2: State Library of Victoria. But as we'll hear today, Redmond

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Speaker 2: Barry had no intention of making Melbourne his home when

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Speaker 2: he set off from Ireland to Australia as a young

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Speaker 2: lawyer with big ambitions. It was only when he became

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Speaker 2: embroiled in a scandal en route to Australia that Melbourne

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Speaker 2: became his plan. B tell us the story. We welcome

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Speaker 2: back State Library Victoria Reference Librarian Andrew McConville.

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Speaker 3: Welcome back to the podcast, Andrew, Thanks very much.

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Speaker 1: Jen. It's so nice to be here again.

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Speaker 4: Now, Redmond Barry is certainly not exactly a forgotten character.

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Speaker 4: So tell us, why have you chosen him for us

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Speaker 4: to chat about today.

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Speaker 1: Well, I think he's certainly remembered mainly for presiding over

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Speaker 1: the trial of Ned Kelly, and I think that's probably

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Speaker 1: an underestimation of him, because really he made a massive

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Speaker 1: contribution to Melbourne and the development of Melbourne as a

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Speaker 1: great city, and I think too often that's sort of

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Speaker 1: forgotten and overshadowed by his work as a judge and

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Speaker 1: his work on that particularly famous trial.

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Speaker 3: So let's go back to the beginning. Tell us about

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Speaker 3: his early life.

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Speaker 1: Well, he was Irish but Anglo Irish, so he was

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Speaker 1: part of that upper class in Ireland who had I mean,

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Speaker 1: he could trace his family back a long way Ireland,

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Speaker 1: but they had originally come over, I think with William

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Speaker 1: the Conqueror, so they had a long history in Ireland.

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Speaker 1: But they were part of the landed gentry in Ireland.

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Speaker 1: So in Ireland at that time, the basically the Irish

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Speaker 1: Catholics owned you know, maybe a couple of percent of

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Speaker 1: the land. Virtually all of the land was owned by

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Speaker 1: English or Irish. Many of whom were absentee land goods.

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Speaker 1: But raben Berry's family had owned farming land there for

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Speaker 1: generations and they basically survived on the rents paid by

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Speaker 1: their tenants, so they weren't particularly affluent. They were part

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Speaker 1: of the ruling class, but they weren't a particularly affluent family,

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Speaker 1: but they were also a family that was did have land,

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Speaker 1: so that made them ay in the upper upper levels

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Speaker 1: of that society. And he wasn't the first born son

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Speaker 1: and basically the firstborn son would inherit the land, so

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Speaker 1: as the third born son. While he did go to

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Speaker 1: boarding school in England, there was a great tradition of

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Speaker 1: joining the army. His father had been in the army

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Speaker 1: and have retired to the farm, so it was thought

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Speaker 1: that he would become an army officer. But when he

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Speaker 1: graduated from school, there weren't many commissions around. Actually Europe

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Speaker 1: was actually pretty peaceful at that stage. It was after

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Speaker 1: the Napoleonic Wars and before Crimea, so it was a

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Speaker 1: period of peace, so there wasn't many commissions in the army.

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Speaker 1: And he studied at Trinity College and did become a

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Speaker 1: barrister and was admitted to the Irish bar in eighteen

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Speaker 1: thirty eight, so that became his career.

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Speaker 3: And was he always quite intellectual as a young man.

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Speaker 1: Well, he was, but he was also I mean he

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Speaker 1: was as a young man. He was apparently quite a

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Speaker 1: good looking young man. He was always fairly interested in

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Speaker 1: the amorous side of life, I've got to say, as

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Speaker 1: we'll hear about a bit later. But he was also

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Speaker 1: a good sportsman, and I guess growing up on a farm,

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Speaker 1: he was a strong swimmer, he was a good horse rider,

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Speaker 1: and he did enjoy those pursuits. But he was also

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Speaker 1: someone who was I guess quite intellectual and someone who

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Speaker 1: did love the sort of classical education that traditionally had

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Speaker 1: existed in England. So he was drawn to that and

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Speaker 1: he did, over his life have a great commitment to

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Speaker 1: I guess culture and to education.

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Speaker 3: And was he actually working as a barrister in Ireland

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Speaker 3: or did he not need to work at that stage?

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Speaker 1: I was certainly needed to work, so he needed to

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Speaker 1: make his own way in life. And as I say,

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Speaker 1: they weren't a particularly affluent family, so it wasn't a

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Speaker 1: really wealthy family where he could just live off the

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Speaker 1: family money. So he did need to make his own

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Speaker 1: way in life, and what he found was that there

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Speaker 1: were a lot of lawyers in Ireland and not quite

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Speaker 1: so much work to keep them all busy. So fairly

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Speaker 1: soon after he was admitted to the Irish Bar he

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Speaker 1: did make the decision to emigrate to Australia, which was

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Speaker 1: probably for someone like him, was an opportunity to come

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Speaker 1: to a fairly fledgling British colony where there would be

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Speaker 1: many more opportunities as I established a judicial system for lawyers,

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Speaker 1: and for lawyers to go on and to be fully successful,

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Speaker 1: perhaps become judges. So I think that was what was

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Speaker 1: in his mind when he decided to emigrate.

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Speaker 3: So he just came out on his own, and he

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Speaker 3: would have been what in his twenties by.

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Speaker 1: Then, exactly, Yes, I think he was twenty six when

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Speaker 1: he came out to Australia, and as I say, that

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Speaker 1: was about within a year really of graduating, and he

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Speaker 1: did come out on his own. He was traveling in

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Speaker 1: a bit of style. He was in the cabin class,

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Speaker 1: so he had his own cabin, so certainly much different

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Speaker 1: to a lot of the people coming to Australia. But yes,

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Speaker 1: so his idea was that he would go to Sydney,

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Speaker 1: and he would have make himself known to the important

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Speaker 1: people in Sydney and hopefully launch a successful judicial career.

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Speaker 3: Now I believe that he was involved in a bit

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Speaker 3: of a scandal on his trip out to Australia. Can

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Speaker 3: you tell us about that?

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Speaker 1: Yes, he certainly was. He did have a great eye

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Speaker 1: for the ladies and was someone who did conduct a

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Speaker 1: number of love affairs, and he was normally fairly discreet

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Speaker 1: about that. But the journey to Melbourne to Sydney was

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Speaker 1: four months, so it was a long time on the ship,

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Speaker 1: and he did start an affair with a married woman

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Speaker 1: on the ship, which was fairly hard to keep secret

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Speaker 1: and became common knowledge. The lady involved her husband had

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Speaker 1: to remove from his cabin and put in a separate cabin,

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Speaker 1: and Redmond Barry became persona non grata on the ship

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Speaker 1: as this affair quite a flagrant affair that he didn't

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Speaker 1: actually seize for the entire journey and didn't seem to

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Speaker 1: worry too much about it. But yes, he did become

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Speaker 1: very notorious on the ship and that didn't do him

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Speaker 1: any favors when they landed in Sydney.

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Speaker 3: And how did this affect his career?

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Speaker 1: Prospects well, basically the various people that he thought he

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Speaker 1: would be being introduced to and would impress, people like

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Speaker 1: the governor and other important people. They heard about the

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Speaker 1: affair before he had a chance to meet them, and

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Speaker 1: he found that he in that sort of ruling class

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Speaker 1: of New South Wales. He was not probably going to

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Speaker 1: get ahead because his reputation was very poor because of

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Speaker 1: his behavior on the ship, and so he fairly quickly

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Speaker 1: made the decision that he would not say in Sydney,

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Speaker 1: he would head to Melbourne. And it was a very,

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Speaker 1: very small and undistinguished Melbourne that he was heading to

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Speaker 1: in eighteen thirty nine.

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Speaker 3: So can you give us a bit more of a

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Speaker 3: description what Melbourne was like at that time?

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Speaker 1: Certainly? Yes. In fact, the famous journalist Edmund Finn, who

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Speaker 1: wrote under the name Gary Owen and wrote a very

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Speaker 1: famous book about early Melbourne called The Chronicles Early Chronicles

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Speaker 1: of Melbourne, he has this great description of Melbourne in

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Speaker 1: eighteen forty, just after Redmond Barry arrived. I mean at

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Speaker 1: that time it was a town really just a settlement

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Speaker 1: of only about three thousand people, so it was tiny.

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Speaker 1: And Gary Owen says that Melbourne in eighteen forty was

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Speaker 1: certainly not a city and could hardly be called a town,

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Speaker 1: nor did it even partake of the characteristics of a

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Speaker 1: village or a hamlet. It was a kind of big

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Speaker 1: settlement and groups pitched here and there, with houses, sheds

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Speaker 1: and tents in clusters or scattered in ones and twos.

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Speaker 1: There were several brick built houses and a few weatherboard

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Speaker 1: cottages with some though not much pretension to comfort, but

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Speaker 1: the majority of the business or residential tenements were made

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Speaker 1: up of colonial wattle and daub roofed with sheets of

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Speaker 1: bark or coarse shingles. During winter, the streets were chains

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Speaker 1: of water holes, and the traffic had to be suspended

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Speaker 1: in places. So it was very much a frontier settlement

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Speaker 1: and a lot lot different than it developed as the

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Speaker 1: gold Rush and many more people came in. So when

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Speaker 1: Ribbon Barry arrived, it was very very early in the

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Speaker 1: settlement of Melbourne and it was very much a frontier settlement.

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Speaker 3: It's hard to imagine how different that was from what

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Speaker 3: Redmond Barry had left behind in Ireland.

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Speaker 1: Absolutely, and as I say, his expectations would have been

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Speaker 1: going to Sydney, which again was not a you know,

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Speaker 1: had been settled at that stage for almost fifty years,

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Speaker 1: so it was much different to Melbourne, and it was

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Speaker 1: quite established and it was sort of the powerful center

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Speaker 1: of the colonies in Australia. So he would have had

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Speaker 1: no expectation of arriving in this dusty, little frontier village,

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Speaker 1: but that's where he ended up, and in some ways

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Speaker 1: that was fortuitous because he was able to become quite

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Speaker 1: an influential person in this very very small fish bowl

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Speaker 1: of a town.

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Speaker 3: So of course, by the time Redmond Barry has had

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Speaker 3: to pay for his fair boy ship from Sydney to Melbourne,

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Speaker 3: he's used up even more of his last money. So

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Speaker 3: I imagine he was pretty brute by the time he's

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Speaker 3: arrived in Melbourne.

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Speaker 1: Yes he was. He had a fairly difficult trip to

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Speaker 1: Melbourn too, It was very rough seas and took them

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Speaker 1: a while to get to port. But he certainly was

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Speaker 1: never someone who was a particularly wealthy man, even later

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Speaker 1: in his life, and someone who actively pursued wealth in

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Speaker 1: the way that some of the other settlers did. But

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Speaker 1: certainly he had some savings, but they went fairly quickly

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Speaker 1: and so he did find work as a lawyer, but

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Speaker 1: he wasn't you know, It was a very scrabble sort

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Speaker 1: of type of position that he had. He was making

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Speaker 1: a little bit of a name for himself because partly

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Speaker 1: there wasn't a lot of competition, but also there wasn't

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Speaker 1: a huge amount of work, and he lived in very

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Speaker 1: modest little cottage in Burke Street initially, and it wasn't

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Speaker 1: really until Victoria became a separate colony that the sort

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Speaker 1: of more affluent or higher paying jobs, more responsible jobs

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Speaker 1: came about. But one of the things that was notable

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Speaker 1: in those early days was that he, unlike most of

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Speaker 1: the European settlers, most of the colonial settlers, he did

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Speaker 1: have great empathy for the Aboriginal people and he did

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Speaker 1: represent them in various encounters with the law, both in

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Speaker 1: times when they were victims of attack and also when

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Speaker 1: they had been charged with European laws. And so while

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Speaker 1: ultimately he wasn't able to do an enormous amount of

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Speaker 1: good there, he certainly wasn't through want of trying. So

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Speaker 1: he did. He's a very interesting and different sort of

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Speaker 1: person in that he had a lot of contradictions in

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Speaker 1: his manner, but certainly he was someone who did have

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Speaker 1: a much more empathy for the Aboriginals and did work

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Speaker 1: very hard for them in a way that most of

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Speaker 1: the other colonists didn't.

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Speaker 3: Now how did his career progress over the following years.

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Speaker 1: Well, as I say he, I mean one interesting point

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Speaker 1: too that probably gives an interesting insight into his character

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Speaker 1: and into the sort of wild West nature of Melbourne

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Speaker 1: was that in eighteen forty one he was actually challenged

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Speaker 1: to a duel for supposedly a derogdory comment he made

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Speaker 1: about a chap called Petas Snodgrass. And so they met

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Speaker 1: down on the foreshore near Albert Park and Peters Snodgrass

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Speaker 1: had actually been in a couple of duels and had

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Speaker 1: almost shot himself in the foot in the previous duel,

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Speaker 1: and he did this with rebend Bar too. He fired

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Speaker 1: his gun into the ground accidentally, and so Redmond Burry

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Speaker 1: very nobly just held his gun in the air and

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Speaker 1: fired away. But it sort of gives an insight into

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Speaker 1: his character, I guess, and the fact that he would

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Speaker 1: be involved in such an archaic thing as a duel,

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Speaker 1: but also this idea of honor. But yeah, for those

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Speaker 1: the aden forties, really he worked as a lawyer. He

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Speaker 1: fairly represent various cases. He was hoping to get a

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Speaker 1: higher position in the government as it was established. But

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Speaker 1: really he probably came into his own as many people

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Speaker 1: did after Aden fifty one, when firstly gold was discovered

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Speaker 1: and also when Victoria became its own colony, and so

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Speaker 1: the judicial process then was set up in Victoria where

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Speaker 1: you had a Supreme Court, and at that point he

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Speaker 1: became a Supreme Court judge, and that's where his career

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Speaker 1: really took off and where he became a very influential

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Speaker 1: person in Melbourne as Melbourne very very rapidly developed.

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Speaker 3: And Andrew, can you tell us about political views.

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Speaker 1: Well, he was, as I say, he'd come from a conservative,

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Speaker 1: ruling class background and that never left him. He really,

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Speaker 1: I mean, he was very much a man of the

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Speaker 1: early nineteenth century and perhaps eighteenth century in terms of

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Speaker 1: his attitudes, rather than the latter part of the nineteenth centuries.

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Speaker 1: So obviously, after the American War of Independence and after

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Speaker 1: the French Revolution the idea of democracy was taking hold.

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Speaker 1: He was certainly not a democrat. He at one stage

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Speaker 1: did consider running for the Legislative Council in Victoria, but

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Speaker 1: that was just as he was appointed as a judge.

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Speaker 1: So he didn't go ahead with that, but he did

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Speaker 1: publish his views in the paper, and one of the

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Speaker 1: things that he was very strong on was that he said,

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Speaker 1: I will resolutely oppose universal suffrage and vote by ballots.

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Speaker 1: So he had this idea of this benign ruling class

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Speaker 1: that had the wisdom to provide good leadership to everybody,

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Speaker 1: but that he certainly wasn't in favor of one well,

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Speaker 1: one person, one vote, certainly wasn't in favor of women

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Speaker 1: having the vote, but he certainly wasn't in favor of

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Speaker 1: men having the vote either. So he wasn't a Democrat

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Speaker 1: in any way. He was very conservative in his political views, although,

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Speaker 1: as I say, he was a man of contrast, So

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Speaker 1: in some ways he could be quite radical in his

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Speaker 1: representation for the Aboriginals and in some of the benevolent

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Speaker 1: things he did for people. But as a judge and

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Speaker 1: as his political views were very conservative.

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Speaker 2: We'll be back right after this short break to hear

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Speaker 2: more about Redmond Barry's private life.

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Speaker 3: So stay with us.

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Speaker 4: Now let's talk about his private life. We talked earlier

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Speaker 4: about his eye for the ladies. Was he like that

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Speaker 4: throughout his life with a stringham of romances or did

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Speaker 4: he get married.

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Speaker 1: Well, he didn't ever get married, and he probably he

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Speaker 1: certainly had an eye for the ladies and had various affairs.

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Speaker 1: It's hard to know much about them, really, He just

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Speaker 1: cryptically mentions various women in his diaries. But his main,

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Speaker 1: the main love of his life, in his main relationship

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Speaker 1: was with an Irish woman, Louis a Barrow, who was

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Speaker 1: actually married when he met her, and married when I

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Speaker 1: think she bore several of his children. Her husband seemed

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Speaker 1: to just disappear. She was Irish, Catholic, and Irish of

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Speaker 1: a more working class, certainly not having the same educational

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Speaker 1: opportunities as Redmond Barry. Now. They remained in a relationship

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Speaker 1: for the rest of Redmond Barry's life, and he always

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Speaker 1: provided for her, and he acknowledged his children, but he

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Speaker 1: also didn't ever live with her. They had houses nearby

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Speaker 1: each other which he paid for. Also, later he purchased

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Speaker 1: several farms. Actually I think I live on one of

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Speaker 1: his farms here in matt Waverley, though just in matt

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Speaker 1: Waverley along High Street. But he purchased adjoining farms, one

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Speaker 1: of which was sort of his and one was for

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Speaker 1: always a Barrow. But mainly managed by their son. But

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Speaker 1: so it was a little bit of a stranger, quite

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Speaker 1: a controversial personal life in particularly in the second half

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Speaker 1: of the nineteenth century, when there was a much more

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Speaker 1: i guess, straightened view of morality. So while and most

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Speaker 1: people knew of his relationship, even though he didn't really

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Speaker 1: publicize it. He didn't appear in public with Luisa Barrow really,

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Speaker 1: but everybody knew that to an extent they were almost

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Speaker 1: living together and they certainly were in a relationship that

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Speaker 1: produced four children and a relationship that was maintained lifelong.

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Speaker 1: But yeah, so it was sort of out of step

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Speaker 1: with I guess the morality of Victorian or that Victorian

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Speaker 1: era of colonial Victoria.

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Speaker 3: Now let's talk about Redmond Barry as a judge, because

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Speaker 3: that's how he's best known. So is it fair to

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Speaker 3: say that he had a reputation for being pretty harsh.

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Speaker 1: Well, he did, yes, I think from his point of view,

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Speaker 1: his attitude was that the Australian colonies had started as

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Speaker 1: a jail and he was concerned about crime. And then

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Speaker 1: after the I think at the time of the gold

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Speaker 1: Rush about eight and fifty eight and fifty one, there

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Speaker 1: was about thirty people in jail, and then a year

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Speaker 1: later there was one thousand people in jail. So with

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Speaker 1: the gold Rush, with the enormous increase in population, and

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Speaker 1: also with even though convicts weren't transported to Victoria, a

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Speaker 1: lot of escape convicts and also a lot of convicts

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Speaker 1: who had served their time were obviously very attracted to Victoria.

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Speaker 1: And also where there's great wealth, there's obviously crime. So

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Speaker 1: he was very harsh, and he felt that he was

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Speaker 1: harsh because he wanted to take Melbourne away from being

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Speaker 1: a wild frontier town to being a very cultured European

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Speaker 1: style city. But generally was felt that he often his

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Speaker 1: representation as a judge perhaps pushed duries to find people guilty,

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Speaker 1: and he was quite harsh in his punishments, although ironically

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Speaker 1: he presided over the trial of many of the Eureka

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Speaker 1: rebels and they were all found not guilty. One thing

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Speaker 1: to point out, too, is that he wasn't making the

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Speaker 1: judgments of guilt or not guilt that was made by

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Speaker 1: a jury. So there were jury trials, but obviously the

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Speaker 1: judge has great influence in directing a jury. He was

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Speaker 1: involved in the trial of some prisoners who murdered an

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Speaker 1: overseer called John Price, who had been very violent overseer

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Speaker 1: at Norfolk Island, and then he was in Melbourne overseeing

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Speaker 1: prisoners who were kept in ships on Hobson's Bay at

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Speaker 1: Williamstown and were in work gangs, and they had a

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Speaker 1: complaint and he went down to speak to them about

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Speaker 1: it and they surrounded him and when they dispersed, he'd

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Speaker 1: actually been killed. And I think Redmond Barry had quite

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Speaker 1: a few of them those men hung. It was a

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Speaker 1: letter of the law that capital punishment was punished by hanging.

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Speaker 1: But yeah, he did have a reputation for being quite

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Speaker 1: a stern judge and someone who tended to err on

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Speaker 1: the side of punishment rather than rehabilitation.

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Speaker 3: Now, the most famous trial level tell us about the

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Speaker 3: Ned Kelly trial in Redmond Barry's role in it.

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Speaker 1: Well, he's certainly most well known for that, and I

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Speaker 1: think that's probably slightly unfair. I mean, I think if

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Speaker 1: you read about it, and you read current lawyers accounts

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Speaker 1: of the trial, they would find various areas where Redmond Barry,

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Speaker 1: as the judge, was directing the jury in a way

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Speaker 1: that indicated that he decided ned was guilty beforehand. And look,

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Speaker 1: I think it's fair to say that Ned had shot

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Speaker 1: three policemen and rob Watson Banks, so he probably wasn't

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Speaker 1: ever going to be fair not guilty, but the murder

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Speaker 1: he was that they're originally charged with when he was

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Speaker 1: for shooting one of the policeman's Stringy barck Creek. You know,

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Speaker 1: the defense was really about whether he was acting in

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Speaker 1: self defense. But even then, when you shoot policemen, I'm

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Speaker 1: not sure what case you have. But he did have

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Speaker 1: a very experienced counsel, whereas the prosecutors were very experienced.

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Speaker 1: But I think the main criticism of Redmond Barry was

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Speaker 1: that he probably again was someone who tended to direct

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Speaker 1: the jury in a way that made them push towards

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Speaker 1: a guilt verdict. The other thing was that he did

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Speaker 1: have the trial move from Beechworth, where generally it would

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Speaker 1: have been held because that's where the crimes were committed

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Speaker 1: in that area. I mean, he had it moved to

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Speaker 1: Melbourne where there would be a less sympathetic jury in

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Speaker 1: Beechworth near Kelly probably got a pretty sympathetic jury, but again,

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Speaker 1: I mean he was found guilty by a jury, not

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Speaker 1: by the judge, and the penalty for a capital crime

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Speaker 1: like that was death. So I think in a way

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Speaker 1: it's quite unfair that that's the only or the main

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Speaker 1: reason people remember him, and he is vilified for that.

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Speaker 1: I'm not sure if that's completely fair.

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Speaker 3: Now, tell us about his significant contribution to Melbourne's cultural

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Speaker 3: life over the decades.

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Speaker 1: Well, his main He did make massive contributions to the

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Speaker 1: cultural and educational life of Melbourne, and he very strongly

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Speaker 1: felt that he wanted to turn Melbourne the Melbourne he

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Speaker 1: originally there's this tiny little village and he wanted to

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Speaker 1: turn it into one of the world's great cities. And

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Speaker 1: obviously the gold Rush brought the money into make great buildings.

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Speaker 1: But he was pretty altruistic. He wasn't someone that pursued

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Speaker 1: personal wealth in the way as I say that many

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Speaker 1: of his colleagues did. And he's most famous for being

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Speaker 1: very key person in establishing the Melbourne University and also

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Speaker 1: the well what we call now the State Library Victoria,

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Speaker 1: which was then called the Melbourne Public Library. Both of

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Speaker 1: the foundation stones for those were laid in Aden fifty

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Speaker 1: four and the Melbourne University started classes the next year

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Speaker 1: and the library opened in Aden fifty six. Very grand buildings,

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Speaker 1: I mean the library still has the beautiful Queen's Hall

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Speaker 1: that was the original part of the library from Aden

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Speaker 1: fifty six, so a very very grand building for quite

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Speaker 1: a fledgling city. And his view of the library and

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Speaker 1: the university. Even though the university started with a handful

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Speaker 1: of students, he actually ensured that they had high quality

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Speaker 1: academics there. He wanted it to be a great university,

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Speaker 1: so he bought in academics from Britain to be the

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Speaker 1: first academics at the library, and he continued to push

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Speaker 1: for very high quality and to attract high quality academics

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Speaker 1: all the way out to Australia to ensure that Melbourne

407
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Speaker 1: University became a great university, which it has become. And

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Speaker 1: the same with the library. He was very keen for

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Speaker 1: it to be a great library. He built the collection

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Speaker 1: very carefully, but he also didn't want it to be

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Speaker 1: an exclusive library. So for someone who was basically a

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Speaker 1: bit of a snob and a bit of an upper

413
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Speaker 1: class snob, he did have this contrasting side to his

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Speaker 1: character where he wanted a library for everyone. In fact,

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Speaker 1: most unusually for that period, it was a library that

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Speaker 1: if you're over fourteen and had clean hands, you're welcome

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Speaker 1: in the library, whoever you were. And his description of

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Speaker 1: the library was that he wanted it to be a

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Speaker 1: voluntary university of adults, all in bud alike, with a

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Speaker 1: desire to advance the great cause of education, which may

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Speaker 1: be said to begin in real earnest when men enter

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Speaker 1: on the struggle of life and resort to a great

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Speaker 1: emporium of learning, philosophy, of literature, science and art. And

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Speaker 1: he was the chancellor of Melbourne University from its establishment

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Speaker 1: until his death. And he's a president of the Trustees

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Speaker 1: of the Library, as I say, from when it was

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Speaker 1: opened until his death as well, so they were enormously influential.

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Speaker 1: But also he had other activities as well. He was

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Speaker 1: helped to found the Athenaeum, which was so important as

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Speaker 1: a mechanics institute and dated when he arrived actually from

431
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Speaker 1: just before he arrived eight in thirty eight, but he

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Speaker 1: was a very great supporter of that. Also involved in

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Speaker 1: the establishment of the Philharmonic Society, the Royal Society which

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Speaker 1: is a scientific society of Victoria, and help with the

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Speaker 1: Melbourne Hospital. He was also even involved with the Victorian

436
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Speaker 1: Horticultural Society. As a farm boy, he was always interested

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Speaker 1: in horticulture. So he very much was a huge figure

438
00:23:58,680 --> 00:24:01,760
Speaker 1: in the development of the cultural educational life of Victoria.

439
00:24:04,280 --> 00:24:06,639
Speaker 4: It's interesting when you consider just how much influence he

440
00:24:06,720 --> 00:24:09,320
Speaker 4: had in the early days of Melbourne. It makes me

441
00:24:09,440 --> 00:24:12,000
Speaker 4: wonder how different the city might have been if not

442
00:24:12,080 --> 00:24:12,960
Speaker 4: for him.

443
00:24:13,520 --> 00:24:15,199
Speaker 1: Well, yeah, that's true. I mean there were, you know,

444
00:24:15,280 --> 00:24:17,359
Speaker 1: other people who were involved, but I think he was.

445
00:24:17,800 --> 00:24:20,320
Speaker 1: I mean he was an autocrat, which is you know,

446
00:24:20,359 --> 00:24:23,680
Speaker 1: pretty much his personality, but he actually had the drive

447
00:24:23,720 --> 00:24:25,600
Speaker 1: to do it. He did and even with the library,

448
00:24:25,600 --> 00:24:28,000
Speaker 1: I mean he was there, you know, dusting books and

449
00:24:28,040 --> 00:24:30,240
Speaker 1: shelving books for the opening of the library. It wasn't

450
00:24:30,280 --> 00:24:32,359
Speaker 1: like he did never get his hands dirty, and he

451
00:24:32,400 --> 00:24:35,880
Speaker 1: really had a proprietorial feeling for the library. He would

452
00:24:35,880 --> 00:24:38,639
Speaker 1: come into the library almost every day. And really for

453
00:24:38,720 --> 00:24:41,680
Speaker 1: a building built, you know, only a few years after

454
00:24:41,720 --> 00:24:44,520
Speaker 1: Melbourne was just a shanty town, it is quite an

455
00:24:44,560 --> 00:24:48,000
Speaker 1: extraordinary achievement. Really. I mean it's one of the very

456
00:24:48,040 --> 00:24:51,080
Speaker 1: grand buildings. That first building that you come to in

457
00:24:51,080 --> 00:24:54,800
Speaker 1: Swanson Street, magnificent Queens Hall, which has been refurbished. I

458
00:24:54,800 --> 00:24:57,359
Speaker 1: mean that is a really grand, grand building and one

459
00:24:57,440 --> 00:25:00,760
Speaker 1: of the first of those post Gold Rush grand buildings

460
00:25:00,760 --> 00:25:03,480
Speaker 1: built in Melbourne, and so I mean he really had

461
00:25:03,480 --> 00:25:05,760
Speaker 1: a lot of drive. And as I say, I think

462
00:25:05,800 --> 00:25:09,000
Speaker 1: what was really admirable was that it wasn't He obviously

463
00:25:09,160 --> 00:25:10,960
Speaker 1: liked to be someone who was in charge, and he

464
00:25:11,119 --> 00:25:13,560
Speaker 1: liked to be someone who was seen to be driving

465
00:25:13,600 --> 00:25:16,800
Speaker 1: the culture and educational life of Melbourne. But the fact

466
00:25:16,840 --> 00:25:18,959
Speaker 1: is he did do that. He didn't just act as

467
00:25:18,960 --> 00:25:22,160
Speaker 1: a figurehead. He was their hands on and he worked

468
00:25:22,560 --> 00:25:25,720
Speaker 1: incredibly hard for particularly the university and the library, but

469
00:25:25,760 --> 00:25:30,720
Speaker 1: also for all those other institutions have promoted education and culture.

470
00:25:30,720 --> 00:25:33,960
Speaker 1: And it wasn't for his own purposes. He wasn't there

471
00:25:34,520 --> 00:25:36,399
Speaker 1: just to cut the ribbon or just to take credit.

472
00:25:36,800 --> 00:25:39,119
Speaker 1: I mean, he does deserve credit, and he did get credit,

473
00:25:39,160 --> 00:25:41,719
Speaker 1: but he utterly deserves that because he put in an

474
00:25:41,840 --> 00:25:44,440
Speaker 1: enormous amount of time, an enormous part of his life

475
00:25:44,480 --> 00:25:47,919
Speaker 1: to that when other people have the same era as

476
00:25:48,000 --> 00:25:50,880
Speaker 1: him were out speculating on land and trying to make

477
00:25:50,880 --> 00:25:52,760
Speaker 1: as much money as they could. That was something. He

478
00:25:52,840 --> 00:25:56,280
Speaker 1: was never a particularly wealthy man. He really just had

479
00:25:56,280 --> 00:25:59,240
Speaker 1: his you know, quite good sorry as a judge, but

480
00:25:59,320 --> 00:26:01,920
Speaker 1: certainly you know, he was nowhere near as wealthy as

481
00:26:01,960 --> 00:26:05,760
Speaker 1: some of the other early settlers of Melbourne became and he.

482
00:26:05,680 --> 00:26:08,520
Speaker 3: Is definitely remembered just mostly as the judge who presided

483
00:26:08,560 --> 00:26:11,199
Speaker 3: over the ned Kelly trial. How would you prefer that

484
00:26:11,240 --> 00:26:12,639
Speaker 3: MELBOURNI has remembered him.

485
00:26:13,000 --> 00:26:15,960
Speaker 1: Well, I'd prefer him to be remembered as a great

486
00:26:16,000 --> 00:26:19,879
Speaker 1: father of Melbourne as a great city. I mean, really,

487
00:26:19,920 --> 00:26:22,600
Speaker 1: the things that he did did establish Melbourne as much

488
00:26:22,600 --> 00:26:25,720
Speaker 1: more than just you know, a town for trading and

489
00:26:25,800 --> 00:26:28,919
Speaker 1: a town for you know, where people found gold and

490
00:26:29,000 --> 00:26:32,400
Speaker 1: found wealth. Through that, I think he saw wealth has

491
00:26:32,440 --> 00:26:36,679
Speaker 1: been important for establishing a great cultural and educational center

492
00:26:37,080 --> 00:26:39,439
Speaker 1: and I think he's certainly achieved that. So I think,

493
00:26:40,040 --> 00:26:42,359
Speaker 1: you know, we really should think of him as been

494
00:26:42,960 --> 00:26:45,240
Speaker 1: one of the key figures in the establishment of the

495
00:26:45,240 --> 00:26:48,240
Speaker 1: Melbourne that we know now, those great institutions we have

496
00:26:48,400 --> 00:26:51,159
Speaker 1: that are you know, world leading institutions. I mean, our

497
00:26:52,000 --> 00:26:55,399
Speaker 1: State Library is about the fifth most visitor library in

498
00:26:55,440 --> 00:26:58,359
Speaker 1: the world. Melbourne University is I think rated as the

499
00:26:58,440 --> 00:27:00,960
Speaker 1: number one university in at and one of the great

500
00:27:01,040 --> 00:27:03,680
Speaker 1: universities of the world. So I think that is all

501
00:27:03,720 --> 00:27:07,040
Speaker 1: down to the foresight and the really hard work and

502
00:27:07,080 --> 00:27:10,439
Speaker 1: the vision and the selflessness really of Redmond Barry. So

503
00:27:10,440 --> 00:27:13,240
Speaker 1: I think it is unfortunate that we only remember him

504
00:27:13,240 --> 00:27:15,960
Speaker 1: as a fairly harsh judge who did preside out of

505
00:27:15,960 --> 00:27:18,320
Speaker 1: the neck Kelly troll or be it. I'm not sure

506
00:27:18,359 --> 00:27:19,919
Speaker 1: if never was ever going to be found not guilty.

507
00:27:19,920 --> 00:27:22,360
Speaker 1: He did commit quite a few crimes. But I think

508
00:27:22,560 --> 00:27:24,880
Speaker 1: it is unfair that that is how he's remembered, because

509
00:27:24,880 --> 00:27:28,199
Speaker 1: you should be remembered as a great father of Melbourne,

510
00:27:28,240 --> 00:27:30,719
Speaker 1: and we should all be proud of our city, and

511
00:27:30,760 --> 00:27:33,960
Speaker 1: that city is, to some extent is the responsibility of

512
00:27:34,320 --> 00:27:36,640
Speaker 1: Redmond Barry some of the great things of that city.

513
00:27:36,640 --> 00:27:39,160
Speaker 1: And also even just if we go on and think

514
00:27:39,200 --> 00:27:42,200
Speaker 1: of you know what an arts capital Melbourne is, and

515
00:27:42,240 --> 00:27:45,520
Speaker 1: you know the cultural life of Melbourne, now, a lot

516
00:27:45,520 --> 00:27:48,600
Speaker 1: of that stems from the establishment of that cultural life

517
00:27:48,640 --> 00:27:51,520
Speaker 1: so very early in Melbourne's in Melbourne's existence.

518
00:27:51,760 --> 00:27:53,760
Speaker 3: Well, thank you so much for sharing his story with

519
00:27:53,840 --> 00:27:54,960
Speaker 3: us today, Andrew.

520
00:27:54,920 --> 00:27:56,679
Speaker 1: Thanks very much. Jen, it's been a great pleasure.

521
00:28:02,240 --> 00:28:04,760
Speaker 2: Thanks for listening. This has been in Black and White,

522
00:28:04,960 --> 00:28:09,000
Speaker 2: a podcast about some of Australia's forgotten characters, written and

523
00:28:09,040 --> 00:28:12,679
Speaker 2: hosted by me Jen Kelly, edited by Nina Young and

524
00:28:12,760 --> 00:28:15,639
Speaker 2: produced by John ty Burton. You can find all the

525
00:28:15,680 --> 00:28:19,640
Speaker 2: stories and photos associated with our episodes at haroldsun dot

526
00:28:19,680 --> 00:28:25,040
Speaker 2: com dot a slash ibaw. If you've enjoyed this podcast,

527
00:28:25,080 --> 00:28:27,080
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528
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529
00:28:31,640 --> 00:28:34,600
Speaker 2: questions please email me at in black and white at

530
00:28:34,640 --> 00:28:39,040
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531
00:28:39,040 --> 00:28:42,000
Speaker 2: appear in the show notes for each episode, and to

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