Speaker 1: Now these are all hard decisions, but they're unavoidable, and
Speaker 1: they're urgent, and I'll be seeking passage of these immediate
Speaker 1: spending controls in the budget session of Parliament.
Speaker 2: We'll be working. The Government says the NDIS has drifted
Speaker 2: too far from its original purpose, has grown too fast
Speaker 2: and too loosely, and that it now needs a major reset.
Speaker 1: The NDIS, remember, was established to support people with significant
Speaker 1: and permanent disability, but its scope has expanded to cover
Speaker 1: many Australians with less significant support needs. The Thriving Kids
Speaker 1: reformed them.
Speaker 2: Mark Butler says the changes which will see eligibility tightened,
Speaker 2: participants reassessed and one hundred and sixty thousand people booted
Speaker 2: from the NDS are about making the scheme sustainable and
Speaker 2: pulling it back to the people it was originally designed
Speaker 2: to support.
Speaker 1: We can't afford for the NDIS to continue growing at
Speaker 1: its present rate, but far more importantly, we can't afford
Speaker 1: for the NDIS to part of the challenge.
Speaker 2: But for people with a disability, families and carers, the
Speaker 2: language has done little to calm anxiety. Because this is
Speaker 2: not just a crackdown on fraud and dodgy providers. It's
Speaker 2: a change to hugot support, how that support is judged
Speaker 2: and what happens to people who no longer meet the
Speaker 2: new test. I'm Daniel James and you're listening for seven
Speaker 2: am today Australian Autism Alliance co chair Jenny Carovolos from
Speaker 2: the government's innbas oberhor and why it's causing so much
Speaker 2: apprehension across the community. It's Friday, April twenty four. Jenny,
Speaker 2: what did you make of Mark Butler's press conference on Wednesday?
Speaker 3: There was a lot to absorb.
Speaker 4: Actually, if I look for the positives in what was
Speaker 4: being said. It was great that it was being recogniz
Speaker 4: eyes that it was a system failure problem and it
Speaker 4: wasn't based on people with disability and in particular autistic people.
Speaker 1: The diagnosis gateway has funneled people onto a scheme that
Speaker 1: was never designed for them. Now that's not their fault.
Speaker 1: They've been told this is the only program available.
Speaker 4: And it was also great to hear that it was
Speaker 4: being said, which is something we've a spouse for a
Speaker 4: long time, that fraud is not being done by people
Speaker 4: with disability.
Speaker 1: When we talk about fraud in the NDIS, we're not
Speaker 1: talking about people with disability. We're not talking about families
Speaker 1: who've been put on a plan and offered support. They're
Speaker 1: not doing anything wrong.
Speaker 2: What struck you about the top of language he was
Speaker 2: using the.
Speaker 3: Language for me?
Speaker 4: There was a difference between when you hear about age care,
Speaker 4: which absolutely I support, it was about respect and investment,
Speaker 4: and when you heard about disability in the same context,
Speaker 4: you hear about costs.
Speaker 1: Slowing these rapid cost increases, clearer eligibility requirements and so
Speaker 1: importantly delivering high quality supports and services for participants. Because
Speaker 1: Australians expect the NDIS to support people with a disability
Speaker 1: in their families and to continue to transform their lives
Speaker 1: in the way we've seen happen over the.
Speaker 4: Past, and it was said that human rights was an achievement,
Speaker 4: which is great, but still everything was couched in terms
Speaker 4: of costs and making sure things were sustainable.
Speaker 2: These are huge announcements that me and the NDIS participants
Speaker 2: like your son will be reassessed and that over one
Speaker 2: hundred and sixty thousand people will be moved off the scheme,
Speaker 2: while others will have their budgets cut by as much
Speaker 2: as fifty percent. Can you explain just how significant. That is,
Speaker 2: it is huge.
Speaker 3: It is absolutely huge.
Speaker 4: I have a saying at the moment, and it's autistic
Speaker 4: peace will should not be the shock absorbers of systems.
Speaker 4: Governments have not yet fixed the issue here is the
Speaker 4: risk is losing what's been working before. Many people that
Speaker 4: they're referring to as a low and moderate support needs,
Speaker 4: they receive a great outcome because a little goes a
Speaker 4: long way in sustaining education and employment. Before the NDIS,
Speaker 4: there was no coherent system for people with mild to
Speaker 4: moderate needs. Access and supports were inconsistent, and in fact,
Speaker 4: there was a Center inquiry into autism that confirm that
Speaker 4: systems were fragmented, complex and failing to deliver outcomes.
Speaker 3: The evidence is.
Speaker 4: Clear that autistic people experience poorer outcomes across the whole lifespan, education, employment,
Speaker 4: health and inclusion. Generic systems didn't deliver effective outcomes, and
Speaker 4: the NDIS has delivered real benefits. So if artis stick,
Speaker 4: people aren't in that scheme, what scheme were they meant
Speaker 4: to be in?
Speaker 2: You spoke a little b about the positives and about
Speaker 2: some of the risks. Well, were some of the negatives
Speaker 2: from your perspective about Mark Bola's announcement on Wednesday.
Speaker 4: Well, definitely the issue that it came across that there's
Speaker 4: all these initiatives which we absolutely support reform and that
Speaker 4: the need for the NDA is to be sustainable. But
Speaker 4: there's a capping, for instance, on supports, So as soon
Speaker 4: as there's capping on supports, it still means what happens
Speaker 4: to the need, So you can cup a budget, but
Speaker 4: that doesn't mean the need has disappeared, so there's still
Speaker 4: a huge amount of work to be done. The other
Speaker 4: thing was about eligibility and who would be getting access
Speaker 4: and who wouldn't. They are all huge structural reforms. There
Speaker 4: is confusion and distrust about assessments.
Speaker 3: That's what community is telling us.
Speaker 4: People don't understand how decisions will be made about access.
Speaker 4: There strong anxiety about cap supports, as I said, versus
Speaker 4: real need and the spheres of gaps which are legitimate
Speaker 4: about falling through the cracks.
Speaker 5: My reaction is one of shock and of deep sadness.
Speaker 5: The disability community knew that this announcement would be bad,
Speaker 5: but this is quite frankly terrifying for us and our families.
Speaker 2: So is there a real sense within the community that
Speaker 2: you represent the autism community that you are being targeted
Speaker 2: through these reforms.
Speaker 4: Absolutely, It's been referenced specifically that autism is the largest
Speaker 4: cohort in the ndis that reforms specifically do affect children
Speaker 4: undernine and as I said, mild to moderate autism. So
Speaker 4: the interpretation in community spaces is that autistic people are
Speaker 4: the ones being moved out.
Speaker 2: Your twenty year old son, Stephan is an autistic person
Speaker 2: on the INDs, how crucial is it for your lives
Speaker 2: and are you worried that he could be one of
Speaker 2: those who's affected by these cuts.
Speaker 3: Absolutely.
Speaker 4: It has played a role for my son, interestingly predominantly
Speaker 4: through education to help support him to be the best
Speaker 4: that he can be. And as a result of that
Speaker 4: it was said that he's teachable, he learns, and his progressors.
Speaker 4: For us, it means that we're going back into uncertainty.
Speaker 4: His next life stage would be employment, so what does
Speaker 4: that mean for us? And the other thing is I
Speaker 4: actually stepped out of a CEO role in order to
Speaker 4: support my child. Doing that meant I'm unless productive member
Speaker 4: of the Australian economy. So the more pressure that is
Speaker 4: put on individuals and families, the more it impacts and
Speaker 4: we end up with that informal care economy, which currently
Speaker 4: costs seventy nine billion dollars.
Speaker 3: We've also worked out.
Speaker 4: That if something happens to us by the age of
Speaker 4: say seventy, although we would have provided for our son
Speaker 4: to have a home and to have an asset behind him,
Speaker 4: he would still need supports if he doesn't stay on
Speaker 4: his path and things break along the education to employment
Speaker 4: transition path. It'll cost government sixteen point five million dollars
Speaker 4: to sustain our.
Speaker 2: Sun coming up the NBIS cut that could see participants
Speaker 2: cut off from their communities. Jenny, The government has made
Speaker 2: a lot of noise about consultation and negotiating with the
Speaker 2: various communities that are impacted by this. Do you feel
Speaker 2: like you've been consulted with these reforms?
Speaker 4: With the reforms, there has been consultation about the new
Speaker 4: framework planning. In terms of the specific reforms that were
Speaker 4: called out, there hasn't been consultation, but that's been indicated
Speaker 4: by the Minister himself indicating there's a lot to be done.
Speaker 4: He had stated that specifically with thriving kids, and there's
Speaker 4: still a lot to be done in terms of readiness
Speaker 4: and we strongly support being involved and being able to
Speaker 4: be part of the solution because it is our community
Speaker 4: with lived experience and the disability representative organizations and other
Speaker 4: support agencies that have that evidence base, research, evidence, in practice,
Speaker 4: lived experience, so that we can focus on real solutions.
Speaker 3: And make sure that we get it right.
Speaker 2: One of the cuts Mark Butler announced was a thirty
Speaker 2: we sent cut to the Social and Community butnticipation budget.
Speaker 2: Now two hundred million dollars is instead being allocated to
Speaker 2: a new Inclusive Communities Fund. But it does mean that
Speaker 2: the average ENDS participant will lose roughly seven thousand dollars
Speaker 2: in funding for the kinds of things that help them
Speaker 2: lead an ordinary life. How big an impact will that have?
Speaker 4: Oh, it's significant again for autistic people in particular, but
Speaker 4: all people with disability. Generalized supports don't work, so it's
Speaker 4: been about individualized supports. Already, people are excluded autistic people.
Speaker 4: It's been demonstrated. We had a Center inquiry on autism
Speaker 4: and people are completely socially isolated a significant portion because
Speaker 4: of their needs. So when education systems break down and
Speaker 4: you're at home, that means you don't get the social interaction.
Speaker 4: When employment systems break down and you're not in meaningful
Speaker 4: employment to interact with others. Again, your social network breaks down,
Speaker 4: and then just having those supports to be part of
Speaker 4: the community are absolutely invaluable.
Speaker 2: The government says fraud inside the NDIS has become a
Speaker 2: major problem. How big a problem is it and what
Speaker 2: does it say about how the scheme has been policed.
Speaker 3: Fraud is a significant problem.
Speaker 4: I mean, I don't need to repeat or come up
Speaker 4: with different statistics to Minister Butler. He has indicated I mean,
Speaker 4: and this is a telltale sign that it has been
Speaker 4: a focus for criminal activity and fraudulent activity by not
Speaker 4: all providers, but some providers.
Speaker 1: The fraud in the NDIS is being perpetrated by low
Speaker 1: lives who are scanning both the taxpayer but more importantly
Speaker 1: people with a disability.
Speaker 4: But again, government is openly now saying that those critical
Speaker 4: controls and systems haven't been in place, the gates have
Speaker 4: been open and it's time to close them.
Speaker 3: So we absolutely agree.
Speaker 4: But what I am going to say is we're expecting
Speaker 4: that it is the systems that are being controlled and
Speaker 4: not individuals. The NDIS was set up about choice and control.
Speaker 4: We cannot lose that as a fundamental principle to people.
Speaker 4: That is what equity is about. That is what rights
Speaker 4: are about.
Speaker 2: And finally, Jenny, how much confidence do you have in
Speaker 2: the government and the systems that are required to change
Speaker 2: to make this thing work? How much confidence do you
Speaker 2: have that this reset will actually work?
Speaker 4: I have absolute confidence if the disability representative organizations and
Speaker 4: other support organizations across researchers, educators, lived experience are well
Speaker 4: working together to being part of the solutions, testing the
Speaker 4: assumptions and actually doing trials.
Speaker 3: If we do great.
Speaker 4: System testing and ensure clear on the outcomes and measuring
Speaker 4: them along the way, it will happen. If we do
Speaker 4: reform the way that's been done in the past, where
Speaker 4: we start making the changes before the system is ready,
Speaker 4: then all we've done is created a problem and it
Speaker 4: will reveal itself in other systems instead.
Speaker 2: Jenny, thank you so much for your time.
Speaker 3: Thank you.
Speaker 2: Also in the news, the states have already begun flagging
Speaker 2: issues with the federal government's INDIS overhaul. The New South
Speaker 2: Wales Premier Cesi's government won't be able to provide an
Speaker 2: equivalent level of care for those who are cut from
Speaker 2: the scheme. About a third of the one hundred and
Speaker 2: sixty thousand people said to be booted from the NDIS
Speaker 2: are expected to come from your South Wales and Kyle
Speaker 2: Santolance has been accused of rating radio listeners and bosses
Speaker 2: makes spleedy ridden rants. Details of the alleged attacks have
Speaker 2: been revealed in court documents for aarn's defense against the
Speaker 2: eighty five million dollar claim filed by sant Lance. Kyle
Speaker 2: and Jackie Oh's former employer is also suing the pair,
Speaker 2: demanding they pay for the advertising loss by Kiss FM
Speaker 2: after their show was pulled off air. I'm Daniel James.
Speaker 2: Thanks for listening to seven AM. We'll be back tomorrow.