1 00:00:00,480 --> 00:00:04,840 Speaker 1: I tell him, it's it's mayhem here before the before 2 00:00:04,880 --> 00:00:07,600 Speaker 1: the go buttoners pressed, it's complete mayhem. But now we 3 00:00:07,640 --> 00:00:11,039 Speaker 1: get ourselves back in order, we straighten up a little bit, 4 00:00:11,080 --> 00:00:14,360 Speaker 1: We sit straighter at our desk. Tivity and Cook is 5 00:00:14,880 --> 00:00:18,919 Speaker 1: much to David Gillespie's sheer delight tivity. An Cook is 6 00:00:19,000 --> 00:00:23,239 Speaker 1: joining us live. It's not a post production editing scenario. 7 00:00:23,680 --> 00:00:25,400 Speaker 1: You're here in real time. 8 00:00:25,440 --> 00:00:26,040 Speaker 2: Real time. 9 00:00:26,079 --> 00:00:30,000 Speaker 3: And if I add the preamble to the show, I 10 00:00:30,040 --> 00:00:31,920 Speaker 3: won't have a job. So that's disappointing. 11 00:00:32,880 --> 00:00:35,440 Speaker 1: Well, if you, yeah, if any of us do, we 12 00:00:35,520 --> 00:00:37,560 Speaker 1: won't have a job. Because we were sharing a few 13 00:00:37,600 --> 00:00:39,559 Speaker 1: thoughts on a few things, it probably better that we 14 00:00:39,600 --> 00:00:43,080 Speaker 1: don't share on a potty. Maybe one day when it's 15 00:00:43,200 --> 00:00:45,320 Speaker 1: like there's only a week of the world left to live, 16 00:00:46,280 --> 00:00:50,559 Speaker 1: maybe when you know we're spinning out of control as 17 00:00:50,560 --> 00:00:54,040 Speaker 1: a planet heading towards some kind of devastating destruction, we'll 18 00:00:54,040 --> 00:00:56,680 Speaker 1: talk about it. But tonight it sounds like the now 19 00:00:56,760 --> 00:01:01,280 Speaker 1: has to me, Hi, David, are you good? 20 00:01:01,400 --> 00:01:02,200 Speaker 2: Good to be here? 21 00:01:02,680 --> 00:01:04,600 Speaker 1: I sent and I'm not going to say what it 22 00:01:04,680 --> 00:01:07,120 Speaker 1: is everyone, but I said, I said, I had an idea, 23 00:01:07,160 --> 00:01:10,119 Speaker 1: and I sent it to David yesterday maybe we'd talk 24 00:01:10,160 --> 00:01:12,040 Speaker 1: about this, And then after I sent it, I went, no, 25 00:01:12,160 --> 00:01:14,240 Speaker 1: we're not talking about that. And then we just jumped 26 00:01:14,280 --> 00:01:16,399 Speaker 1: on before and he goes, you know that thing you 27 00:01:16,440 --> 00:01:18,280 Speaker 1: sent No, I went yeah, he goes, we're not talking 28 00:01:18,319 --> 00:01:21,760 Speaker 1: about that. I went correct. So I'll tell you what 29 00:01:21,840 --> 00:01:23,840 Speaker 1: we are going to talk about, which you and I 30 00:01:23,880 --> 00:01:29,000 Speaker 1: haven't spoken about for a long time. Just because well 31 00:01:29,240 --> 00:01:32,560 Speaker 1: just actually really because I had a conversation, quite a 32 00:01:32,560 --> 00:01:37,319 Speaker 1: long conversation this morning with somebody about this, and that 33 00:01:37,440 --> 00:01:41,880 Speaker 1: is I just wanted to revisit the sugar conversation because 34 00:01:42,040 --> 00:01:44,560 Speaker 1: I want to see. So you wrote Sweet Poison in 35 00:01:44,640 --> 00:01:45,720 Speaker 1: two thousand and eight. 36 00:01:46,319 --> 00:01:50,640 Speaker 4: Yep, so I wrote it in two thousand and seven, right, 37 00:01:50,840 --> 00:01:53,480 Speaker 4: My publishers finally got around of putting it out in 38 00:01:53,480 --> 00:01:53,720 Speaker 4: two that. 39 00:01:54,440 --> 00:01:58,720 Speaker 1: So the publisher fucked around for a year, and you 40 00:01:58,760 --> 00:02:02,280 Speaker 1: wrote it in two thousand and Evan, So that is 41 00:02:02,360 --> 00:02:05,640 Speaker 1: seventeen year geez, that's a long time ago. So seventeen 42 00:02:05,760 --> 00:02:09,960 Speaker 1: years ago you were speaking about the you know, the 43 00:02:10,000 --> 00:02:13,960 Speaker 1: low sugar, reduced sugar, fuck off sugar gospel. You were 44 00:02:14,000 --> 00:02:18,519 Speaker 1: evangelizing the world. What's the how have we gone over 45 00:02:18,560 --> 00:02:21,320 Speaker 1: the last well since publication how have we gone over 46 00:02:21,360 --> 00:02:25,200 Speaker 1: the last sixteen years? Are we eating less sugar? Is 47 00:02:25,200 --> 00:02:28,960 Speaker 1: it just been I just I just googled how many 48 00:02:29,000 --> 00:02:31,520 Speaker 1: different names for sugar are there and it came up 49 00:02:31,680 --> 00:02:37,920 Speaker 1: sixty one sixty one different types of sugar. So is 50 00:02:37,919 --> 00:02:41,120 Speaker 1: there just as much sugar being consumed or have we 51 00:02:41,400 --> 00:02:43,360 Speaker 1: improved in some way or don't you know? 52 00:02:45,080 --> 00:02:49,120 Speaker 4: The answer is we don't know for sure. And the 53 00:02:49,240 --> 00:02:52,480 Speaker 4: reason for that is quite interesting because the sugar lobby 54 00:02:52,520 --> 00:02:56,800 Speaker 4: has worked very, very hard to make sure that accurate 55 00:02:56,800 --> 00:03:00,639 Speaker 4: statistics on sugar usage are not collected, both in the 56 00:03:00,760 --> 00:03:05,880 Speaker 4: United States and in Australia. So the ABS the RAM 57 00:03:05,960 --> 00:03:09,760 Speaker 4: Bureau Statistics discontinued its series on sugar consumption in nineteen 58 00:03:10,040 --> 00:03:16,480 Speaker 4: ninety eight after some intense lobbying, and so we don't 59 00:03:16,680 --> 00:03:20,360 Speaker 4: really know how much sugar Australians are consuming. There have 60 00:03:20,480 --> 00:03:25,519 Speaker 4: been some intermittent surveys, and surveys, as you might guess 61 00:03:25,560 --> 00:03:31,720 Speaker 4: in nutrition, mostly rubbish. And that's because, believe it or not, 62 00:03:31,800 --> 00:03:34,920 Speaker 4: people don't tell the truth about how much sugar they're consuming. 63 00:03:36,840 --> 00:03:39,400 Speaker 4: And even if they know how much sugar they're consuming, 64 00:03:39,760 --> 00:03:40,440 Speaker 4: they're still not. 65 00:03:40,360 --> 00:03:41,800 Speaker 2: Going to tell the truth about it. 66 00:03:41,920 --> 00:03:45,120 Speaker 1: So yeah, well, that reminds me of trying to get 67 00:03:45,160 --> 00:03:49,520 Speaker 1: Australians sugar consumption statistics. I just brought that up trying 68 00:03:49,560 --> 00:03:52,440 Speaker 1: to I mean, I know this is obvious, we'll come 69 00:03:52,480 --> 00:03:54,720 Speaker 1: back to sugar in one second, but trying to find 70 00:03:54,760 --> 00:04:00,920 Speaker 1: statistics on how often people liely that's a thing. 71 00:04:01,680 --> 00:04:05,400 Speaker 4: Even the ABS acknowledges that in the stuff they do publish, 72 00:04:05,680 --> 00:04:08,800 Speaker 4: and they say that look sugar. Well, not to sugar, 73 00:04:08,840 --> 00:04:12,960 Speaker 4: but any food intake survey data is very very unreliable, 74 00:04:13,000 --> 00:04:15,240 Speaker 4: and they've got all sorts of interesting statistics about how 75 00:04:15,360 --> 00:04:19,320 Speaker 4: very unreliable it is, so you really can't take them 76 00:04:19,400 --> 00:04:20,120 Speaker 4: too seriously. 77 00:04:20,400 --> 00:04:21,120 Speaker 2: You can do some. 78 00:04:21,120 --> 00:04:23,719 Speaker 4: Back of the envelope sort of stuff though, just by 79 00:04:23,800 --> 00:04:30,040 Speaker 4: looking at total consumption of goods sold that we're without 80 00:04:30,200 --> 00:04:33,000 Speaker 4: explicitly looking at sugar, not breaking it down to that, 81 00:04:33,040 --> 00:04:36,040 Speaker 4: but sort of looking at things like categories like breakfast, cereals, 82 00:04:36,960 --> 00:04:38,840 Speaker 4: soft drinks, things like that, So you can do a 83 00:04:38,880 --> 00:04:41,240 Speaker 4: little bit of backward calculation on that sort of thing. 84 00:04:41,760 --> 00:04:44,560 Speaker 4: And I think a conservative measure of it is that 85 00:04:44,600 --> 00:04:48,239 Speaker 4: the average Australian is putting away about forty t spoons 86 00:04:48,240 --> 00:04:53,200 Speaker 4: of sugar a day, which is a serious quantity of sugar. 87 00:04:54,400 --> 00:04:55,680 Speaker 2: But and most people. 88 00:04:55,440 --> 00:04:58,920 Speaker 4: Would say, well, you know, maybe Harps is doing that, 89 00:04:59,000 --> 00:05:02,719 Speaker 4: but I I'm not getting anywhere near forty tea spoons 90 00:05:02,720 --> 00:05:05,600 Speaker 4: of sugar. That's if you think about adding forty teaspoons 91 00:05:05,640 --> 00:05:07,719 Speaker 4: of sugar to your food, most peo would say, I 92 00:05:07,720 --> 00:05:09,760 Speaker 4: don't add any You know, I threw the sugar pot 93 00:05:09,800 --> 00:05:13,280 Speaker 4: out years ago, And the reason for that is you 94 00:05:13,360 --> 00:05:16,800 Speaker 4: don't have to. I mean, you look at a breakfast cereal, 95 00:05:17,520 --> 00:05:20,400 Speaker 4: you know, like say Sultana brand or Neutral Grain or 96 00:05:20,400 --> 00:05:23,040 Speaker 4: something like that. It's going to be a quarter to 97 00:05:23,120 --> 00:05:25,680 Speaker 4: a third sugar. So you have one hundred grams of it. 98 00:05:25,760 --> 00:05:29,039 Speaker 4: There's you know, twenty five thirty grams of sugar straight away, 99 00:05:30,160 --> 00:05:33,680 Speaker 4: and you know, four grams per teaspoon. It's not hard 100 00:05:33,720 --> 00:05:35,279 Speaker 4: to get to forty tea spoons. In fact, if you 101 00:05:35,320 --> 00:05:37,040 Speaker 4: do the masks on it and say, okay, I'm going 102 00:05:37,040 --> 00:05:39,400 Speaker 4: to sit down to a heart foundation to prove breakfast 103 00:05:39,880 --> 00:05:43,120 Speaker 4: of Sultana brand and a glass of orange juice, and 104 00:05:43,160 --> 00:05:46,160 Speaker 4: you're at about twenty teaspoons of sugar before you push 105 00:05:46,240 --> 00:05:48,160 Speaker 4: back from that. So you don't have to go anywhere 106 00:05:48,160 --> 00:05:51,320 Speaker 4: near a mars bar or a coke. You're already at 107 00:05:51,360 --> 00:05:54,760 Speaker 4: half the average Australian consumption of sugar. And when you 108 00:05:54,800 --> 00:05:58,720 Speaker 4: compare that to say, the early eighteen hundreds, before sugar 109 00:05:58,800 --> 00:06:02,400 Speaker 4: was able to be mass produced in commercial quantities, we 110 00:06:02,400 --> 00:06:06,640 Speaker 4: were consuming about two teaspoons per person per day and 111 00:06:06,760 --> 00:06:11,839 Speaker 4: that mostly came from honey and fresh fruit. Now we 112 00:06:11,839 --> 00:06:14,479 Speaker 4: haven't changed that much. We're still getting about two teaspoons 113 00:06:15,040 --> 00:06:17,360 Speaker 4: per person per day from honey and fresh fruit, and 114 00:06:17,440 --> 00:06:20,120 Speaker 4: we just lay it on an extra thirty eight in 115 00:06:20,640 --> 00:06:22,039 Speaker 4: sugar added into the food supply. 116 00:06:22,400 --> 00:06:25,000 Speaker 1: I remember a lady coming to see me years ago, David, 117 00:06:25,080 --> 00:06:27,440 Speaker 1: who told me she didn't have any sugar in her diet. 118 00:06:28,040 --> 00:06:30,799 Speaker 1: And she literally thought that she didn't because she didn't 119 00:06:30,839 --> 00:06:34,680 Speaker 1: add sugar to anything. And then so I sat down 120 00:06:34,720 --> 00:06:37,039 Speaker 1: with her. I had a one and a half hour 121 00:06:37,120 --> 00:06:40,640 Speaker 1: console with her, and I said, you know what she 122 00:06:40,800 --> 00:06:43,280 Speaker 1: ate in a typical day, you know, and what she drank, 123 00:06:43,400 --> 00:06:46,719 Speaker 1: what she consumed in a typical day. And I can't 124 00:06:46,760 --> 00:06:51,000 Speaker 1: remember exactly, but yeah, it was somewhere around thirty tea spoons, 125 00:06:51,080 --> 00:06:54,120 Speaker 1: despite the fact that she had no sugar in inverted 126 00:06:54,120 --> 00:06:57,840 Speaker 1: commas in her diet. And she was like, she was 127 00:06:57,880 --> 00:06:59,000 Speaker 1: completely unaware. 128 00:06:59,440 --> 00:07:01,880 Speaker 2: You know, Well, most a lot of people are. 129 00:07:02,120 --> 00:07:05,160 Speaker 4: I mean, people will say to you, look, I understand 130 00:07:05,200 --> 00:07:07,039 Speaker 4: that there's sugar and coke, but you know I don't 131 00:07:07,120 --> 00:07:10,560 Speaker 4: drink coke. You so what do you drink? Oh, I 132 00:07:10,600 --> 00:07:12,160 Speaker 4: have a nice coffee. Well there's more sugar in a 133 00:07:12,240 --> 00:07:15,080 Speaker 4: nice coffee than there isn't a coke. Yes, you know, 134 00:07:15,320 --> 00:07:19,000 Speaker 4: Australia's consumption of sugar in liquid form is actually highest 135 00:07:19,040 --> 00:07:23,640 Speaker 4: in dairy products, not not in soft drinks. Soft drinks 136 00:07:23,680 --> 00:07:26,920 Speaker 4: are actually in full sugar. Soft drinks are in serious trouble. 137 00:07:26,960 --> 00:07:29,360 Speaker 4: I mean there's a massive decline. So you know, I'm 138 00:07:29,360 --> 00:07:31,559 Speaker 4: going to take credit for that. Since two thousand and seven, 139 00:07:31,600 --> 00:07:35,840 Speaker 4: there's been a massive decline in soft drink consumption, full sugar, 140 00:07:35,880 --> 00:07:38,240 Speaker 4: soft drink. And you can see that going to a supermarket. 141 00:07:38,360 --> 00:07:41,200 Speaker 4: You're not to a supermarket now, and the soft drink 142 00:07:41,240 --> 00:07:43,600 Speaker 4: aisle is still there, but there's an awful lot of 143 00:07:43,600 --> 00:07:47,320 Speaker 4: sugar free stuff there and very little of the full stuff. 144 00:07:47,840 --> 00:07:51,000 Speaker 1: Yeah. And I mean we've mentioned this once before at least, 145 00:07:51,000 --> 00:07:54,080 Speaker 1: but people might be blown away to know that something 146 00:07:54,160 --> 00:07:59,559 Speaker 1: like barbecue sugar Peru barbecue sauce, I should say barbecue sugar. 147 00:07:59,720 --> 00:08:04,080 Speaker 1: That was faux pa wasn't it. Barbecue is the same thing. Well, 148 00:08:04,160 --> 00:08:09,280 Speaker 1: it's about fifty two grams per hundred grams. So for say, 149 00:08:09,800 --> 00:08:13,200 Speaker 1: you know, let's say you've got a two hundred mill cup, 150 00:08:13,880 --> 00:08:16,880 Speaker 1: so you've got two hundred grams of that source. Then 151 00:08:17,040 --> 00:08:19,800 Speaker 1: of that about well more than half of the cup 152 00:08:20,000 --> 00:08:23,040 Speaker 1: is sugar. So I mean things like that where people 153 00:08:23,120 --> 00:08:26,600 Speaker 1: think it's essentially even peanut butter, which you think, oh, 154 00:08:26,640 --> 00:08:30,400 Speaker 1: that's nuts and it's salty, but most peanut butters are 155 00:08:30,480 --> 00:08:33,079 Speaker 1: somewhere between ten and twenty percent sugar because it's got 156 00:08:33,080 --> 00:08:36,000 Speaker 1: added sugar. Not all of them are course jams. You go, 157 00:08:36,080 --> 00:08:39,560 Speaker 1: oh yeah, but jams fruit, But it's still incredibly high. 158 00:08:39,960 --> 00:08:43,000 Speaker 1: And some of those I won't name names because I 159 00:08:43,000 --> 00:08:45,000 Speaker 1: don't want it. Well I should name names because they 160 00:08:45,000 --> 00:08:47,560 Speaker 1: can't sue me because it's just fucking information. It's not 161 00:08:47,600 --> 00:08:50,880 Speaker 1: an opinion. But a lot of those smoothie bars and 162 00:08:50,920 --> 00:08:55,000 Speaker 1: those you know kind of juice kind of bar places 163 00:08:55,040 --> 00:08:58,600 Speaker 1: that sell you know, these mega energy drinks and stuff 164 00:08:58,640 --> 00:09:02,319 Speaker 1: which you know them, have got heading towards one hundred 165 00:09:02,360 --> 00:09:05,800 Speaker 1: grams of sugar in one of their large servings, which 166 00:09:05,840 --> 00:09:09,400 Speaker 1: is twenty or twenty something teaspoons. 167 00:09:08,920 --> 00:09:12,240 Speaker 4: There's no functional difference between a glass of apple juice 168 00:09:12,280 --> 00:09:15,959 Speaker 4: and a glass of coke. They both have about the 169 00:09:16,000 --> 00:09:20,439 Speaker 4: same amount of sugar in them, so one has bubbles 170 00:09:20,480 --> 00:09:21,880 Speaker 4: in it and the other doesn't. 171 00:09:22,400 --> 00:09:23,560 Speaker 2: But that's about it. 172 00:09:24,440 --> 00:09:28,000 Speaker 4: So anyone who tells you that a juice of any 173 00:09:28,080 --> 00:09:32,400 Speaker 4: kind is any kind of health food is delusional if 174 00:09:32,400 --> 00:09:36,000 Speaker 4: they believe it. But you know, and the manufacturers have 175 00:09:36,040 --> 00:09:38,240 Speaker 4: been onto this for a long time. So you know, 176 00:09:39,160 --> 00:09:42,400 Speaker 4: yogurt produces, for example, you have to put sugar in 177 00:09:42,840 --> 00:09:44,920 Speaker 4: yogurt to make it palatable to someone who's used to 178 00:09:44,960 --> 00:09:51,000 Speaker 4: eating sugar. And pretty quickly people got onto the fact 179 00:09:51,000 --> 00:09:52,960 Speaker 4: that there was more sugar in the average yogurt than 180 00:09:53,000 --> 00:09:55,040 Speaker 4: in a bowl of ice cream, and so, but it 181 00:09:55,080 --> 00:09:59,720 Speaker 4: was being sold as health food. So the manufacturers started saying, ah, 182 00:10:00,040 --> 00:10:02,920 Speaker 4: we'll put a label on it that says no cane 183 00:10:03,000 --> 00:10:08,760 Speaker 4: sugar in this yogurt, and there isn't because they're using 184 00:10:08,800 --> 00:10:12,280 Speaker 4: concentrated fruit juice instead, which is still for it doesn't 185 00:10:12,320 --> 00:10:14,559 Speaker 4: matter whether the sugar got squeezed out of a piece 186 00:10:14,600 --> 00:10:17,360 Speaker 4: of sugar cane or got squeezed out of an apple 187 00:10:17,440 --> 00:10:17,960 Speaker 4: or an orange. 188 00:10:17,960 --> 00:10:18,720 Speaker 2: It's still sugar. 189 00:10:19,880 --> 00:10:22,000 Speaker 1: So whether or not we look like. I guess some 190 00:10:22,040 --> 00:10:25,080 Speaker 1: of the more common ones or forms, you know, fructose 191 00:10:25,679 --> 00:10:30,200 Speaker 1: or fructose, glucose, lactose, soucrose, which is just sugar in it. 192 00:10:31,400 --> 00:10:35,520 Speaker 1: Do they all have a very similar consequence in the body. 193 00:10:36,000 --> 00:10:36,559 Speaker 2: No. 194 00:10:36,559 --> 00:10:39,560 Speaker 4: No, And this is the interesting bit. The only one 195 00:10:39,600 --> 00:10:43,359 Speaker 4: of the ones you mentioned that's a problem is fructose. 196 00:10:43,559 --> 00:10:44,880 Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm going to say that. 197 00:10:45,679 --> 00:10:51,559 Speaker 4: So the rest of them metabolized to glucose. And when 198 00:10:51,600 --> 00:10:54,120 Speaker 4: a sugar is metabolized to glucose, that's not a problem 199 00:10:54,160 --> 00:10:57,200 Speaker 4: for us because evolution has set us up to have 200 00:10:57,280 --> 00:11:00,880 Speaker 4: glucose as our primary source of energy. So we have 201 00:11:01,400 --> 00:11:05,680 Speaker 4: enormously complex systems to manage our intake of glucose and 202 00:11:05,800 --> 00:11:08,480 Speaker 4: to manage our intake of anything that can be converted 203 00:11:08,480 --> 00:11:12,120 Speaker 4: to glucose because it's our primary energy source. So when 204 00:11:12,160 --> 00:11:15,359 Speaker 4: we've had enough of that, we stop eating. Because fructose 205 00:11:15,440 --> 00:11:19,760 Speaker 4: is relatively really rare in our environment, we don't do that. 206 00:11:20,040 --> 00:11:24,080 Speaker 4: We have no biochemical breaks on fructose. It's something that 207 00:11:24,160 --> 00:11:28,679 Speaker 4: is metabolized immediately to fat in our liver and stored immediately. 208 00:11:28,760 --> 00:11:33,160 Speaker 4: It was a bonus in evolutionary times coming across a 209 00:11:33,200 --> 00:11:37,160 Speaker 4: piece of ripe fruit that could deliver you a fructose 210 00:11:37,200 --> 00:11:39,800 Speaker 4: hit was a bonus. You didn't want your body shutting 211 00:11:39,840 --> 00:11:41,720 Speaker 4: down your ability to consume it because you were going 212 00:11:41,760 --> 00:11:42,800 Speaker 4: to get one shot. 213 00:11:42,520 --> 00:11:43,040 Speaker 2: At this thing. 214 00:11:44,600 --> 00:11:46,240 Speaker 4: You wanted our eat as much of it as you 215 00:11:46,280 --> 00:11:48,760 Speaker 4: possibly could, and you wanted it stored as body fat 216 00:11:48,840 --> 00:11:53,240 Speaker 4: as soon as possible. So we have no evolutionary controls 217 00:11:53,240 --> 00:11:57,160 Speaker 4: on fructose, but we have controls on every other sugar 218 00:11:57,240 --> 00:12:01,599 Speaker 4: we consume. And that's the trick. That's the problem with fructose. 219 00:12:02,080 --> 00:12:04,080 Speaker 4: If we've gone from an environment where it was really 220 00:12:04,120 --> 00:12:06,679 Speaker 4: really rare and a real advantage to have no control 221 00:12:06,720 --> 00:12:10,000 Speaker 4: over it, to an environment where it's been added to 222 00:12:10,120 --> 00:12:13,560 Speaker 4: every single part of our food supply because it's addictive 223 00:12:13,600 --> 00:12:17,520 Speaker 4: as well, and food manufacturers know that food with sugar 224 00:12:17,559 --> 00:12:20,640 Speaker 4: added sells a lot better than food without sugar, so 225 00:12:21,400 --> 00:12:24,120 Speaker 4: it's added into our entire food supply. So we've gone 226 00:12:24,120 --> 00:12:26,760 Speaker 4: from an environment where we almost never encountered it, and 227 00:12:26,800 --> 00:12:28,880 Speaker 4: when we did, it was it to our advantage to 228 00:12:29,480 --> 00:12:33,480 Speaker 4: tear down on it, to an environment where it is 229 00:12:33,520 --> 00:12:37,600 Speaker 4: in everything and it is subverting our appetite control system. 230 00:12:37,720 --> 00:12:40,960 Speaker 4: It is addictive, and it gets in and turns to 231 00:12:41,000 --> 00:12:46,080 Speaker 4: fat and then also destroys our ability to control how 232 00:12:46,120 --> 00:12:48,040 Speaker 4: much of everything else we eat as well. 233 00:12:48,440 --> 00:12:50,160 Speaker 2: So the net result. 234 00:12:49,840 --> 00:12:51,720 Speaker 4: Of this is you put this stuff in the food 235 00:12:51,720 --> 00:12:55,040 Speaker 4: supply of any animal in any lab or any human 236 00:12:55,240 --> 00:12:59,920 Speaker 4: in society, and they get fat. It's not magic, not 237 00:13:00,120 --> 00:13:04,360 Speaker 4: woo woo. It's just plain biochemical fact. 238 00:13:05,600 --> 00:13:11,679 Speaker 1: So are you are you anti fruit advocate, low fruit advocate? 239 00:13:12,160 --> 00:13:13,680 Speaker 2: What do you? 240 00:13:14,360 --> 00:13:16,960 Speaker 4: Well, you've got to think about your evolved environment. When 241 00:13:17,000 --> 00:13:21,200 Speaker 4: do we have fruit? Fruit was nature's dessert. It was rare, 242 00:13:22,440 --> 00:13:25,439 Speaker 4: and we had it whenever we could get it, but 243 00:13:25,480 --> 00:13:30,400 Speaker 4: that wasn't frequent. So my attitude to fruit is fruit 244 00:13:30,440 --> 00:13:32,360 Speaker 4: should not be a primary part of your diet. 245 00:13:33,520 --> 00:13:34,839 Speaker 2: If you get access to. 246 00:13:34,800 --> 00:13:37,160 Speaker 4: It every now and then and treat yourself, why not 247 00:13:37,440 --> 00:13:40,319 Speaker 4: treat it like what it is, nature's dessert. And by 248 00:13:40,360 --> 00:13:43,840 Speaker 4: the way, when you stop eating sugar or fruit starts 249 00:13:43,920 --> 00:13:48,120 Speaker 4: tasting very very sweet. And so when I say to you, 250 00:13:48,200 --> 00:13:51,199 Speaker 4: treat it like nature's dessert, it'll feel like nature's dessert 251 00:13:51,240 --> 00:13:53,760 Speaker 4: because it'll be just about the only intensely sweet thing 252 00:13:53,800 --> 00:13:54,160 Speaker 4: you eat. 253 00:13:56,520 --> 00:13:58,880 Speaker 1: Is there such a thing as a sugar addiction or 254 00:13:58,920 --> 00:14:02,560 Speaker 1: is that just a term? I know you're very dantic 255 00:14:02,679 --> 00:14:04,280 Speaker 1: about addictions. 256 00:14:04,440 --> 00:14:06,960 Speaker 2: Very pantic about addiction it's a very real thing. 257 00:14:07,400 --> 00:14:10,240 Speaker 4: So we know that fractose spikes cortisol, which spikes don't 258 00:14:10,360 --> 00:14:13,000 Speaker 4: mean which is the pathway you need for addiction. So 259 00:14:13,360 --> 00:14:16,000 Speaker 4: it is a real chemical addiction. We have the word 260 00:14:16,080 --> 00:14:19,360 Speaker 4: chocoholic in our language because chocolate is addictive. I don't 261 00:14:19,360 --> 00:14:22,520 Speaker 4: know if you've eaten cocoa powder without sugar added to it, 262 00:14:22,560 --> 00:14:25,880 Speaker 4: but it tastes roughly like dirt, So no one's getting 263 00:14:25,920 --> 00:14:28,840 Speaker 4: addicted to that in a hurry. Put a ton of 264 00:14:28,880 --> 00:14:32,520 Speaker 4: sugar in it, you've got a different proposition altogether. Yes, 265 00:14:32,640 --> 00:14:36,000 Speaker 4: we're addicted to sugar. You can tell if you're addicted 266 00:14:36,040 --> 00:14:37,560 Speaker 4: to sugar, like a lot of people say to me, ah, 267 00:14:37,720 --> 00:14:40,320 Speaker 4: I'm not addicted to sugar. That's a lot of rubbish. 268 00:14:40,600 --> 00:14:43,280 Speaker 4: But the test for that is, well, then don't consume 269 00:14:43,320 --> 00:14:46,640 Speaker 4: it and see what happens. Like just don't consume stop 270 00:14:46,680 --> 00:14:49,560 Speaker 4: for eating sugar and see what happens. And everybody who 271 00:14:49,640 --> 00:14:54,680 Speaker 4: does that tells describes exactly the withdrawal pathway of anyone 272 00:14:54,760 --> 00:14:58,080 Speaker 4: dropping any other addictive substance, which is that they go 273 00:14:58,160 --> 00:15:02,280 Speaker 4: through a couple of weeks intense cravings and then they 274 00:15:02,280 --> 00:15:03,160 Speaker 4: can walk away from it. 275 00:15:04,600 --> 00:15:08,400 Speaker 1: And some of my friends have had headaches, like. 276 00:15:08,840 --> 00:15:13,440 Speaker 4: Yeah, there are headaches associated with yeah yeah, yeah generally yeah. 277 00:15:13,280 --> 00:15:18,360 Speaker 1: Yeah, and crankiness and tiredness and headaches. And I'm like, wow, 278 00:15:18,480 --> 00:15:21,240 Speaker 1: you sound like you're coming off bloody heroin or something. 279 00:15:21,320 --> 00:15:23,960 Speaker 4: I mean, it's not as bad as heroin, but it 280 00:15:24,120 --> 00:15:26,840 Speaker 4: is breaking an addiction, just like any other addiction. 281 00:15:27,240 --> 00:15:27,840 Speaker 2: It's interesting. 282 00:15:28,120 --> 00:15:30,240 Speaker 4: When I first put Sweet Poison out, I was contacted 283 00:15:30,240 --> 00:15:35,360 Speaker 4: by a bloke who ran one of the first sort 284 00:15:35,400 --> 00:15:40,360 Speaker 4: of alcohol addiction centers in the Northern Territory, and he 285 00:15:40,400 --> 00:15:42,920 Speaker 4: said that he found like he read Sweet Poison, and 286 00:15:42,920 --> 00:15:44,440 Speaker 4: he got in touch with me. He said one of 287 00:15:44,480 --> 00:15:46,600 Speaker 4: the things he found in running that center was that 288 00:15:46,600 --> 00:15:48,000 Speaker 4: if you were going to try and break someone of 289 00:15:48,040 --> 00:15:50,360 Speaker 4: alcohol addiction, the first thing you had to do was 290 00:15:50,400 --> 00:15:52,520 Speaker 4: break them with the sugar addiction or you had no chance. 291 00:15:52,920 --> 00:15:55,760 Speaker 4: So he would make them break sugar addiction for the 292 00:15:55,800 --> 00:15:58,120 Speaker 4: first two weeks, then he would start on alcohol, and 293 00:15:58,160 --> 00:16:00,680 Speaker 4: he said he was much more successful with that than 294 00:16:00,720 --> 00:16:02,600 Speaker 4: if you just let them maintain the sugar addiction. 295 00:16:03,000 --> 00:16:09,600 Speaker 1: It's so interesting. Tip do you reckon you're a sugar addict? Okay, okay, 296 00:16:10,280 --> 00:16:11,840 Speaker 1: do you want any help with that? Or is you're 297 00:16:11,920 --> 00:16:14,440 Speaker 1: just a happy sugar addict. A happy sugar addict. 298 00:16:15,280 --> 00:16:18,320 Speaker 3: And I don't lie about how much sugar I eat, David, 299 00:16:18,520 --> 00:16:21,560 Speaker 3: I'd tell all of the truth. I eat all of 300 00:16:21,600 --> 00:16:22,080 Speaker 3: the sugar. 301 00:16:23,040 --> 00:16:26,280 Speaker 1: But you do think because you have you ever Sorry, David, 302 00:16:26,360 --> 00:16:29,400 Speaker 1: you have a real healthy diet. I do I do 303 00:16:29,520 --> 00:16:30,920 Speaker 1: other than chocolate. 304 00:16:30,920 --> 00:16:33,600 Speaker 3: Yes, yeap, which is still an addiction. But the rest 305 00:16:33,600 --> 00:16:36,600 Speaker 3: of my diet is great. There's no silly sugars hiding in, 306 00:16:37,080 --> 00:16:38,920 Speaker 3: you know, pretend not sweet food. 307 00:16:39,760 --> 00:16:42,160 Speaker 4: Yeah, so you're not having ninety nine percent fat free 308 00:16:42,160 --> 00:16:46,040 Speaker 4: mayonnaise which is twenty percent sugar, or no, you're not 309 00:16:46,120 --> 00:16:47,720 Speaker 4: having a barbecue. 310 00:16:47,200 --> 00:16:50,600 Speaker 2: Sauce which is fifty two percent sugar. Definitely not. 311 00:16:51,760 --> 00:16:54,760 Speaker 4: But the other thing to bear in mind too, and 312 00:16:54,880 --> 00:16:58,600 Speaker 4: this is worth knowing if you've got a high energy lifestyle, 313 00:16:58,600 --> 00:17:02,000 Speaker 4: so if you're doing something that requires significant amounts of energy, 314 00:17:02,360 --> 00:17:05,200 Speaker 4: So if you're if you're burning you know, three three 315 00:17:05,200 --> 00:17:07,680 Speaker 4: and a half thousand calories a day because we're either 316 00:17:07,840 --> 00:17:12,200 Speaker 4: you know, doing intense labor, or you're working out a lot, 317 00:17:12,720 --> 00:17:17,119 Speaker 4: or you know, doing marathon sports, et cetera like that, 318 00:17:17,119 --> 00:17:20,119 Speaker 4: that people who are in that situation never get to 319 00:17:20,160 --> 00:17:23,360 Speaker 4: a point where fractose accumulates to fat in the liver. 320 00:17:23,520 --> 00:17:28,480 Speaker 4: Because the fractose actually helps them because it's metabolized instantly 321 00:17:29,160 --> 00:17:32,600 Speaker 4: without any control. It's actually a very very fast way 322 00:17:32,760 --> 00:17:36,359 Speaker 4: of delivering energy to the body. Now, this is a 323 00:17:36,400 --> 00:17:40,119 Speaker 4: good thing if you are a marathon athlete. So a 324 00:17:40,160 --> 00:17:42,520 Speaker 4: lot of them take you know, fractose gels and so on, 325 00:17:42,600 --> 00:17:45,439 Speaker 4: and there's good science as to why that's a not 326 00:17:45,560 --> 00:17:47,840 Speaker 4: bad for them and be actually a good source of 327 00:17:47,920 --> 00:17:51,400 Speaker 4: energy for them. But it turns into a problem if 328 00:17:51,400 --> 00:17:55,159 Speaker 4: you're not running marathons every day, So if you're not 329 00:17:56,080 --> 00:18:02,200 Speaker 4: massively consuming calories and needing that extracts boost, then it's 330 00:18:02,240 --> 00:18:04,679 Speaker 4: turning to fat in your body. So for ninety nine 331 00:18:04,720 --> 00:18:08,040 Speaker 4: percent of the population it's a bad thing. But for 332 00:18:08,200 --> 00:18:11,280 Speaker 4: people who are you know, ultra athletes who are pushing 333 00:18:11,280 --> 00:18:13,840 Speaker 4: their bodies to the extreme, it's actually a good thing. 334 00:18:14,320 --> 00:18:17,720 Speaker 1: That's why we see Tour de France riders, I mean, 335 00:18:17,880 --> 00:18:22,160 Speaker 1: apart from their gels, they often have a banana, yeah 336 00:18:22,240 --> 00:18:24,600 Speaker 1: or two, and we see a lot of yeah, like 337 00:18:24,640 --> 00:18:30,920 Speaker 1: you said, endurance athletes runners writers Michael Phelps allegedly used 338 00:18:30,960 --> 00:18:33,480 Speaker 1: to when he was in full training and winning whatever 339 00:18:33,560 --> 00:18:36,359 Speaker 1: he won seventeen gold medals or something. Over his career 340 00:18:36,960 --> 00:18:39,320 Speaker 1: averaged ten thousand calories a day. 341 00:18:40,760 --> 00:18:40,960 Speaker 2: Well. 342 00:18:41,000 --> 00:18:45,120 Speaker 4: And the problem for those athletes is that's great when 343 00:18:45,119 --> 00:18:48,520 Speaker 4: they're doing it. It's when they stop doing it and 344 00:18:48,600 --> 00:18:52,880 Speaker 4: then don't drop those habits so frequently. I mean, there's 345 00:18:52,640 --> 00:18:54,360 Speaker 4: two more stories than you could poke a stick out 346 00:18:54,480 --> 00:18:58,600 Speaker 4: of high performance athletes who put on huge amounts of 347 00:18:58,640 --> 00:19:02,520 Speaker 4: weight once they were hire. And that's because they've spent 348 00:19:02,600 --> 00:19:05,359 Speaker 4: their whole lives being able to consume anything they like 349 00:19:06,520 --> 00:19:11,280 Speaker 4: and have zero ill effects, and then suddenly they haven't. 350 00:19:11,320 --> 00:19:13,000 Speaker 4: They don't know how to eat to avoid that. 351 00:19:14,440 --> 00:19:19,960 Speaker 1: And neither of you two think of a very well 352 00:19:20,000 --> 00:19:23,640 Speaker 1: he's not well. He was a very well known athlete 353 00:19:23,680 --> 00:19:28,320 Speaker 1: to me and my homies. He retired from a particular sport, 354 00:19:28,400 --> 00:19:33,800 Speaker 1: professional sport. He blew out to him obviously self described fatty, 355 00:19:34,160 --> 00:19:36,200 Speaker 1: got hit. Don't get mad at me. That's what he's 356 00:19:36,200 --> 00:19:39,600 Speaker 1: called himself. He got huge, he put on about forty kilos, 357 00:19:39,680 --> 00:19:42,199 Speaker 1: retired from the sport. In fact, I can think of 358 00:19:42,280 --> 00:19:46,880 Speaker 1: two ones. An Olympic swimmer, but this guy retired from 359 00:19:46,880 --> 00:19:51,320 Speaker 1: the sport, then hated his life, felt like shit, started training, 360 00:19:51,440 --> 00:19:54,320 Speaker 1: lost all the weight and came back and became world champion. 361 00:19:55,280 --> 00:19:55,520 Speaker 2: Wow. 362 00:19:56,160 --> 00:19:59,760 Speaker 1: Yeah, so his name is Mark Okalupo. Yeah, yeah, world 363 00:19:59,800 --> 00:20:03,920 Speaker 1: chi champion. And also I think Jeff Fhugel the swimmer, 364 00:20:03,960 --> 00:20:04,320 Speaker 1: put on. 365 00:20:04,280 --> 00:20:06,159 Speaker 2: About a swimmer that was all he was thinking of. 366 00:20:06,280 --> 00:20:10,200 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, he put on about forty k's as well. 367 00:20:10,240 --> 00:20:12,280 Speaker 1: But yeah, I think you're right David. Like, it's that 368 00:20:13,400 --> 00:20:15,479 Speaker 1: there is a big I mean, and not just with 369 00:20:15,520 --> 00:20:20,160 Speaker 1: sugar and food, but psychological emotional adjustment for athletes when 370 00:20:20,160 --> 00:20:24,359 Speaker 1: they have to live in this this operating, very specific 371 00:20:24,520 --> 00:20:28,440 Speaker 1: operating system, high intensity. It's all about sleep and energy 372 00:20:28,760 --> 00:20:32,320 Speaker 1: and recovery and intake and micros and macros and training 373 00:20:32,359 --> 00:20:36,120 Speaker 1: cycles and periodization. And now you don't do that anymore. 374 00:20:36,440 --> 00:20:38,920 Speaker 1: But you've been eating a certain way for fifteen or 375 00:20:38,960 --> 00:20:40,160 Speaker 1: twenty years, right. 376 00:20:40,760 --> 00:20:45,040 Speaker 4: Yeah, And you've also been able to obtain a benefit from, say, 377 00:20:45,080 --> 00:20:48,879 Speaker 4: sucking down a front coast shell, and it's been an 378 00:20:48,880 --> 00:20:53,560 Speaker 4: important part of your regime. And unless you're really clued 379 00:20:53,640 --> 00:20:58,840 Speaker 4: into the biochemistry, you wouldn't understand that that's much much 380 00:20:58,920 --> 00:21:01,679 Speaker 4: more than the galleries it says on the packet. You know, 381 00:21:01,680 --> 00:21:04,199 Speaker 4: if you just take a lightweight view of nutrition and 382 00:21:04,240 --> 00:21:08,400 Speaker 4: just look at calories, rather than what they are. Then 383 00:21:09,400 --> 00:21:12,080 Speaker 4: that can be really dangerous because fractose calories are not 384 00:21:12,160 --> 00:21:16,400 Speaker 4: the same as glucose calories, just the same as alcohol 385 00:21:16,440 --> 00:21:19,800 Speaker 4: calories are not the same as glucose calories. If you 386 00:21:20,000 --> 00:21:23,320 Speaker 4: just go by the calories, you're being seriously misled about 387 00:21:23,320 --> 00:21:25,040 Speaker 4: what your bo he's doing with the substance. 388 00:21:25,720 --> 00:21:29,359 Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly, not all calories are equal. Speaking of athletes, TOI, 389 00:21:29,440 --> 00:21:33,679 Speaker 1: F you're the athlete on the show, when you fight, 390 00:21:34,359 --> 00:21:37,480 Speaker 1: you do you have to suck down to a weight 391 00:21:38,119 --> 00:21:39,080 Speaker 1: or have you had to? 392 00:21:39,800 --> 00:21:43,120 Speaker 3: I generally didn't have to worry about that a lot. 393 00:21:43,119 --> 00:21:47,000 Speaker 3: I sat at Wayne my last fight. I was close, 394 00:21:47,200 --> 00:21:48,720 Speaker 3: very close to the weight, so I had to make 395 00:21:48,760 --> 00:21:50,760 Speaker 3: sure I came in under to Wayne. But I never 396 00:21:50,800 --> 00:21:52,600 Speaker 3: had to drop I never really had to drop weight 397 00:21:52,640 --> 00:21:53,120 Speaker 3: to fight. 398 00:21:53,560 --> 00:21:55,199 Speaker 1: I saw a photo of you the other day, or 399 00:21:55,200 --> 00:21:58,160 Speaker 1: two side by side photos, because we know how shy 400 00:21:58,280 --> 00:22:00,640 Speaker 1: you are about putting out pictures of yourself. But if 401 00:22:00,640 --> 00:22:04,840 Speaker 1: I was jacked, i'd probably do the same. But they 402 00:22:04,880 --> 00:22:07,399 Speaker 1: were side by side photos, and I can't remember, but 403 00:22:07,440 --> 00:22:10,919 Speaker 1: one was like maybe fifty four or five kilos and 404 00:22:10,960 --> 00:22:12,639 Speaker 1: one was sixty two or something. 405 00:22:12,720 --> 00:22:16,280 Speaker 3: Yeah, I think there was eight kilos different fifty fifty six, 406 00:22:16,800 --> 00:22:18,520 Speaker 3: fifty four or fifty six. 407 00:22:19,359 --> 00:22:22,320 Speaker 1: Yeah, there was like a lot of weight difference a 408 00:22:22,520 --> 00:22:25,720 Speaker 1: on a relatively small body, but you were pretty much 409 00:22:26,000 --> 00:22:28,359 Speaker 1: just as lean in both of them. Like one of 410 00:22:28,400 --> 00:22:31,480 Speaker 1: them you looked like, with respect the hulk compared to 411 00:22:31,520 --> 00:22:35,320 Speaker 1: the Compared to the other one, you looked almost like 412 00:22:35,359 --> 00:22:37,399 Speaker 1: a bodybuilder, and then the other one you look like 413 00:22:37,440 --> 00:22:41,040 Speaker 1: an endurance athlete. Did that? Did that shock you when 414 00:22:41,040 --> 00:22:42,880 Speaker 1: you saw those side by side photos? 415 00:22:43,119 --> 00:22:43,560 Speaker 3: It did? 416 00:22:43,680 --> 00:22:44,000 Speaker 2: It did? 417 00:22:44,040 --> 00:22:46,679 Speaker 3: That's what spurred me to put it up because I 418 00:22:46,680 --> 00:22:49,879 Speaker 3: remember doing it years ago when I was not ripped, 419 00:22:49,920 --> 00:22:52,080 Speaker 3: when I'd had time off, and I was just and 420 00:22:52,160 --> 00:22:53,840 Speaker 3: I might have put a couple of kilos on, but 421 00:22:53,880 --> 00:22:57,320 Speaker 3: I was similar and or actually I think I didn't 422 00:22:57,320 --> 00:22:59,600 Speaker 3: put weight on. I just changed body compositions. That was 423 00:22:59,640 --> 00:23:02,560 Speaker 3: exactly We're the same weight, but one was ripped and 424 00:23:02,640 --> 00:23:05,640 Speaker 3: lean and one was just normal. And I just think 425 00:23:05,680 --> 00:23:08,359 Speaker 3: it's fascinating because everyone's obsessed with the scales. 426 00:23:08,680 --> 00:23:12,120 Speaker 1: Yeah, well, I mean that's that's a problem in itself, 427 00:23:12,160 --> 00:23:14,960 Speaker 1: isn't it, Especially when you know, like I can get 428 00:23:14,960 --> 00:23:17,000 Speaker 1: on the scales in the morning at eighty four, drink 429 00:23:17,000 --> 00:23:20,119 Speaker 1: a liter of water, and literally thirty seconds later on eighty. 430 00:23:19,880 --> 00:23:23,680 Speaker 2: Five, well what is a leader of water way? 431 00:23:24,000 --> 00:23:27,520 Speaker 1: Exactly? That's what I'm saying. Well, that was my point, David. 432 00:23:27,560 --> 00:23:28,240 Speaker 1: It's like, oh. 433 00:23:28,359 --> 00:23:32,520 Speaker 4: Good, I'm glad, yeah, glad, I'm keeping up with you now. 434 00:23:33,000 --> 00:23:36,280 Speaker 1: I'll tell you what. You're the tipsy athlete, You're the journeus. 435 00:23:36,320 --> 00:23:38,960 Speaker 1: Fucking keep up, will you. I was going to say 436 00:23:38,960 --> 00:23:44,960 Speaker 1: to you, I was reading somewhere with your book that 437 00:23:45,800 --> 00:23:50,400 Speaker 1: they were promoting it. David Gillespie lost six Stone. I'm like, well, 438 00:23:50,400 --> 00:23:53,080 Speaker 1: this must be the British public version. 439 00:23:53,200 --> 00:23:54,480 Speaker 2: I didn't know what that was either. 440 00:23:54,680 --> 00:23:57,040 Speaker 1: I'm like six Stone, who wrote this? 441 00:23:58,480 --> 00:24:00,760 Speaker 2: Yeah, no, so that it was released in Britain as well. 442 00:24:00,880 --> 00:24:06,240 Speaker 4: So this book, which I thought wasn't controversial at all, 443 00:24:06,520 --> 00:24:09,359 Speaker 4: you know, saying you know what, maybe it's not a 444 00:24:09,359 --> 00:24:12,680 Speaker 4: good idea to eat sugar. And the only reason I'd 445 00:24:12,680 --> 00:24:14,400 Speaker 4: written it is because I grew up in a time 446 00:24:14,560 --> 00:24:18,480 Speaker 4: when you know, ninety nine percent fat free marshmallows were 447 00:24:18,600 --> 00:24:21,200 Speaker 4: health food really, you know, because there was no fat 448 00:24:21,240 --> 00:24:25,439 Speaker 4: in them, so they were good. And it had just 449 00:24:25,480 --> 00:24:27,720 Speaker 4: become a revelation to me that maybe sugar wasn't a 450 00:24:27,720 --> 00:24:29,840 Speaker 4: good idea. And then I saw the biochemistry that said 451 00:24:29,840 --> 00:24:32,679 Speaker 4: it definitely wasn't a good idea, and so decided not 452 00:24:32,720 --> 00:24:35,000 Speaker 4: to eat it, and you know, I lost forty kilos. 453 00:24:35,040 --> 00:24:39,119 Speaker 4: But the thing about it was, I thought, well, this 454 00:24:39,160 --> 00:24:41,840 Speaker 4: is a relatively uncontroversial, fairly obvious. 455 00:24:41,440 --> 00:24:42,439 Speaker 2: Thing to say. 456 00:24:42,800 --> 00:24:45,280 Speaker 4: And the book came out and the publisher pretty much 457 00:24:45,280 --> 00:24:46,879 Speaker 4: agreed with me, and they thought, you know, this is 458 00:24:46,920 --> 00:24:48,399 Speaker 4: going to be boring as and it's going to sell 459 00:24:48,440 --> 00:24:54,440 Speaker 4: about three copies. And then everyone started jumping all over 460 00:24:54,520 --> 00:24:56,760 Speaker 4: it and taking shots at me, you know, the like 461 00:24:56,920 --> 00:25:00,800 Speaker 4: Heart Foundation and the Dietitians Association and of course any 462 00:25:01,000 --> 00:25:03,320 Speaker 4: which made me suspect that perhaps so on the take 463 00:25:03,359 --> 00:25:07,200 Speaker 4: from the sugar industry not how dare I suggest that? 464 00:25:07,280 --> 00:25:09,280 Speaker 1: But it just. 465 00:25:11,040 --> 00:25:15,280 Speaker 4: It astounded me, the controversy that it caused. And how 466 00:25:15,359 --> 00:25:18,000 Speaker 4: dare you say that sugar makes people fat? And I thought, well, 467 00:25:18,040 --> 00:25:19,440 Speaker 4: I thought that was obvious. 468 00:25:19,560 --> 00:25:24,439 Speaker 1: And how dare you be scientific and analytical and research based? 469 00:25:24,760 --> 00:25:26,679 Speaker 1: This is this is what I found before it's in 470 00:25:26,720 --> 00:25:30,360 Speaker 1: front of me, it says. Sweet Poison, published in two 471 00:25:30,400 --> 00:25:33,840 Speaker 1: thousand and eight, is widely credited with starting the current 472 00:25:33,920 --> 00:25:40,960 Speaker 1: Australian wave of anti sugar sentiment. It's like how dare 473 00:25:41,000 --> 00:25:46,280 Speaker 1: you start that waver sugar sentiment like you what are 474 00:25:46,320 --> 00:25:46,919 Speaker 1: you doing? 475 00:25:47,560 --> 00:25:50,680 Speaker 2: I mean profits left right? All right? 476 00:25:50,800 --> 00:25:55,800 Speaker 1: Before we go just quickly Olympics thoughts, what's what's taken your. 477 00:25:56,000 --> 00:26:00,240 Speaker 4: I thought that, well, I almost tried to find three 478 00:26:00,280 --> 00:26:02,800 Speaker 4: seconds of preparation I do before it's talking to you, Craig. 479 00:26:03,320 --> 00:26:05,720 Speaker 2: I tried to. 480 00:26:05,720 --> 00:26:09,040 Speaker 4: Find an article that i'd briefly seen the other day 481 00:26:09,240 --> 00:26:12,760 Speaker 4: about I think it was Dean Boxell saying that he 482 00:26:12,840 --> 00:26:16,760 Speaker 4: wanted his swimmers off the social media during the Olympics, 483 00:26:16,800 --> 00:26:21,639 Speaker 4: and I thought, you know, that makes sense because it 484 00:26:21,720 --> 00:26:24,960 Speaker 4: isn't as obvious as it at first appears as to 485 00:26:25,000 --> 00:26:28,040 Speaker 4: why that's a good idea. But I thought, maybe just 486 00:26:28,080 --> 00:26:31,280 Speaker 4: explain a bit about why it's a good idea. The 487 00:26:32,440 --> 00:26:34,440 Speaker 4: thing about social media, and this is I think I've 488 00:26:34,480 --> 00:26:35,040 Speaker 4: told you before. 489 00:26:35,080 --> 00:26:37,159 Speaker 2: I was brought down. 490 00:26:37,400 --> 00:26:40,480 Speaker 4: By one of the NRL clubs to talk to their 491 00:26:40,520 --> 00:26:44,280 Speaker 4: players about this as well. The thing about playing players 492 00:26:44,280 --> 00:26:47,360 Speaker 4: on social media is it's not just the distraction thing 493 00:26:47,400 --> 00:26:50,680 Speaker 4: and that they're looking at their phones rather than getting 494 00:26:50,720 --> 00:26:53,719 Speaker 4: on with their teammates and so on. There's actually some 495 00:26:53,840 --> 00:26:59,240 Speaker 4: much more insidious things occurring there, which is social media rewards. 496 00:26:59,359 --> 00:27:04,520 Speaker 4: People with cotocin hits for their own personal endeavors. So 497 00:27:05,080 --> 00:27:08,040 Speaker 4: the rewards from social media are when you post something, 498 00:27:08,080 --> 00:27:10,320 Speaker 4: you want to see the likes on whatever it is 499 00:27:10,359 --> 00:27:12,200 Speaker 4: you've posted. You know, you want to see the views, 500 00:27:12,240 --> 00:27:13,919 Speaker 4: You want to see the likes, you know, all that 501 00:27:13,960 --> 00:27:16,640 Speaker 4: sort of thing. So if you're getting your oxytocin hits 502 00:27:16,640 --> 00:27:19,720 Speaker 4: from that, and therefore your dopamine hits from that, what 503 00:27:19,800 --> 00:27:26,280 Speaker 4: you're actually getting is your personal performance and your personal 504 00:27:27,880 --> 00:27:32,520 Speaker 4: image is becomes the critical thing to you rather than 505 00:27:33,240 --> 00:27:38,440 Speaker 4: the team and the team performance and your you know, 506 00:27:38,600 --> 00:27:41,320 Speaker 4: all of that sort of thing, which which any athletic 507 00:27:41,359 --> 00:27:44,280 Speaker 4: director wants. He wants the team working together, he wants 508 00:27:44,400 --> 00:27:49,600 Speaker 4: everybody focused on everybody doing well, not individuals. The other 509 00:27:49,640 --> 00:27:53,560 Speaker 4: aspect to it is that it seriously because, as we've 510 00:27:53,560 --> 00:27:57,400 Speaker 4: talked about many many times before, getting all those dopamine hits, 511 00:27:57,520 --> 00:28:00,640 Speaker 4: which is just the same as getting them from cocaine, 512 00:28:01,600 --> 00:28:05,960 Speaker 4: it makes you anxious and makes you depressed and makes 513 00:28:06,040 --> 00:28:09,159 Speaker 4: it hard for you to sleep, and those are all 514 00:28:09,280 --> 00:28:13,000 Speaker 4: terrible things for an athlete, particularly the bit about not 515 00:28:13,040 --> 00:28:17,280 Speaker 4: being able to sleep. So it takes the focus of 516 00:28:17,280 --> 00:28:19,080 Speaker 4: the athlete away from the thing they're supposed to be 517 00:28:19,119 --> 00:28:23,000 Speaker 4: focused on. It takes a mix master to their brain 518 00:28:23,880 --> 00:28:27,400 Speaker 4: and it means they can't sleep. And so. 519 00:28:29,000 --> 00:28:30,800 Speaker 2: It's a very very good. 520 00:28:30,560 --> 00:28:33,520 Speaker 4: Point being made by the coach there to say get 521 00:28:33,560 --> 00:28:38,040 Speaker 4: off the social media the whole time. Now people are saying, oh, 522 00:28:38,080 --> 00:28:39,880 Speaker 4: that's because he doesn't want to see people bagging out 523 00:28:39,920 --> 00:28:42,000 Speaker 4: his athletes, et cetera. Well, I'm sure that's part of it, 524 00:28:42,280 --> 00:28:45,080 Speaker 4: but there are some deep biochemical reasons why it's a 525 00:28:45,160 --> 00:28:46,240 Speaker 4: very good idea as well. 526 00:28:46,640 --> 00:28:51,000 Speaker 1: Yes, and also, like I think from I mean obviously 527 00:28:51,040 --> 00:28:53,719 Speaker 1: what you said, but also from a psychological and emotional 528 00:28:53,800 --> 00:28:56,360 Speaker 1: point of view, when somebody looks for a number and 529 00:28:56,400 --> 00:28:59,400 Speaker 1: the number is lower, you know, they want ten x 530 00:28:59,440 --> 00:29:01,600 Speaker 1: and they get it two x response, but they had 531 00:29:02,040 --> 00:29:06,200 Speaker 1: a ten x hope or expectation, and now they're disappointed, 532 00:29:06,240 --> 00:29:08,920 Speaker 1: and now they're you know, now they're sad, or now 533 00:29:08,920 --> 00:29:11,160 Speaker 1: they're anxious, or now they think, fuck, I need to 534 00:29:11,160 --> 00:29:14,520 Speaker 1: do a better post. I need to I'm guilty of that, 535 00:29:14,720 --> 00:29:17,320 Speaker 1: not too much these days, but I remember putting up 536 00:29:17,360 --> 00:29:21,120 Speaker 1: things and not getting the response I thought it would get, 537 00:29:21,720 --> 00:29:23,960 Speaker 1: and I've taken it down and put up something else, 538 00:29:24,640 --> 00:29:32,000 Speaker 1: you know, and then I know, little social media junkie mate. 539 00:29:32,040 --> 00:29:35,320 Speaker 1: It's always good to chat to you. I know you're 540 00:29:35,560 --> 00:29:37,960 Speaker 1: one of the rare guests that I don't have to say. 541 00:29:38,200 --> 00:29:40,360 Speaker 1: How do people find you, follow you, connect with you 542 00:29:40,440 --> 00:29:42,840 Speaker 1: because you're not interested in any of that, because you 543 00:29:42,880 --> 00:29:44,120 Speaker 1: actually don't like people. 544 00:29:44,800 --> 00:29:46,920 Speaker 2: Oh that's not fair. I love you, I love talking 545 00:29:46,920 --> 00:29:49,480 Speaker 2: to you. 546 00:29:49,520 --> 00:29:52,640 Speaker 1: All Right, we'll say goodbye, affair, but as always we 547 00:29:52,760 --> 00:29:53,400 Speaker 1: appreciate you. 548 00:29:53,480 --> 00:29:54,880 Speaker 2: Thanks mate, See you later.