Speaker 1: The public has had a long held fascination with detectives.
Speaker 1: Detective see aside of life the average persons never exposed her.
Speaker 1: I spent thirty four years as a cop. For twenty
Speaker 1: five of those years I was catching killers. That's what
Speaker 1: I did for a living. I was a homicide detective.
Speaker 1: I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead, I'm taking
Speaker 1: the public into the world in which I operated. The
Speaker 1: guests I talk to each week have amazing stories from
Speaker 1: all sides of the law. The interviews are raw and honest,
Speaker 1: just like the people I talk to. Some of the
Speaker 1: content and language might be confronting. That's because no one
Speaker 1: who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged. Join
Speaker 1: me now as I take you into this world. Today,
Speaker 1: I had a conversation with a woman named Michelle Milthorpe.
Speaker 1: Michelle found out that her daughters had been sexually assaulted
Speaker 1: by a person who is considered a trusted family friend.
Speaker 1: This man was treated like a fact our grandfather. He'd
Speaker 1: gained the trust of the whole family. Now, what Michelle
Speaker 1: told me about the impact this pedophile had on the children,
Speaker 1: I think is going to shock you. And it was
Speaker 1: certainly deeply personal. I've seen and heard so many stories
Speaker 1: about this type of crime, and I thought they had
Speaker 1: an understanding about the impact. But Michelle's account of what
Speaker 1: they went through really opened my eyes. The brazen and
Speaker 1: despicable way this person not only groomed the children but
Speaker 1: also the parents of the children so he could pray
Speaker 1: on these children is I don't know, it's disgusting. We
Speaker 1: also talked about how these innocent children were treated through
Speaker 1: the court process. When you hear what Michelle has to say,
Speaker 1: I think you're going to find it hard to comprehend
Speaker 1: what happened. So here is my conversation with Michelle Milthorp,
Speaker 1: the mother of daughters who were sexually assaulted by a pedophile,
Speaker 1: as a heavy but necessary discussion. So, Michelle, it was
Speaker 1: a typical Sunday morning two thousand thirteen. You're laying in
Speaker 1: bed on a Sunday morning and your five year old
Speaker 1: daughter jumps in the bed and said, Mummy, I've got
Speaker 1: something to tell you, And then words came out that
Speaker 1: actually changed changed your life. I think it's fair enough
Speaker 1: to say change your life that she said words the
Speaker 1: effect of Mummy, I don't like Leon licking my vagina.
Speaker 1: Now Leon was a family friend known to the family.
Speaker 1: We'll talk about more about him later, but from a
Speaker 1: mother's point of view, from your point of view, had
Speaker 1: that impact.
Speaker 2: Oh look, it was as you say, it was just
Speaker 2: everyday Sunday morning, and we did have our kids were
Speaker 2: sleeping in our beds and we were frustrated by that.
Speaker 2: You know, you went a good night sleep anyway. Yeah,
Speaker 2: Rose said that, and yeah, it shocked me, obviously, it
Speaker 2: shocked me. I just had this moment where she said it,
Speaker 2: she repeated it for me, and I went in to
Speaker 2: what I call professional mode because I thought, you know,
Speaker 2: there's no way she could say this unless it was happening.
Speaker 1: It's not the type of type of words the five
Speaker 1: year old would use.
Speaker 2: No, no, And I said, oh, you know, that's not great,
Speaker 2: that's not good. You know, is there anything else that
Speaker 2: he does that you don't like? Anyway? And she went
Speaker 2: on to tell me a few other things that were
Speaker 2: going on that we had no you know, that I
Speaker 2: had no knowledge of. And then she said, can I
Speaker 2: watch too too now, which was that ABC children's channel,
Speaker 2: So she'd sort of dropped this bomb, and then she
Speaker 2: moved on with her life really really quickly, and I
Speaker 2: think that's probably pretty indicative of, you know, how things
Speaker 2: went from there. It was like we were on this
Speaker 2: parallel track that just jumped everything about that we've sort
Speaker 2: of became before and after, you know, that very moment
Speaker 2: for our lives. And yeah, So I went and my
Speaker 2: husband was down in another bedroom, and I went down
Speaker 2: and talked to him, and I actually couldn't speak. He
Speaker 2: thought somebody had died. When I got him, I said,
Speaker 2: you know, Roses just told me something, and I vomited.
Speaker 2: I couldn't I couldn't speak. And then I told him
Speaker 2: what she had said, and then she repeated that to
Speaker 2: him as well, and it kind of just started this
Speaker 2: amazing rollercoaster that was really really crap.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that's a fair way of describing as crap.
Speaker 1: But to hear your door to say those words, and
Speaker 1: then you've got to process it, dissect the information, and
Speaker 1: then work out what to do. So what did you do.
Speaker 2: So for me? When she said it, she actually also
Speaker 2: said and Pipper told me that he shouldn't do things
Speaker 2: like that. Old sisters eight eight and a half at
Speaker 2: the time, and Rosa just turned five. Pit was eight
Speaker 2: and a half at the time, and so I went
Speaker 2: down to Pip and I woke her up, and I said, oh,
Speaker 2: you know, Roses just said something to me that he's
Speaker 2: a little bit concerning. And you know, she just mentioned
Speaker 2: that something was happening that she didn't like and somebody
Speaker 2: was doing things to her that she didn't like, and
Speaker 2: her entire demeanor changed. I hadn't used names, I hadn't
Speaker 2: used any information except for that, and she just withdrew
Speaker 2: into herself and she actually got her pillow and put
Speaker 2: it over her face anyway, and then I took the
Speaker 2: pillow off her face, and she just had a tear
Speaker 2: rolling down her face. And yeah, she couldn't talk. But
Speaker 2: Pip's always been a really great writer. And I said,
Speaker 2: would it be easier for you to write down if
Speaker 2: there's something going on that you don't like? And she
Speaker 2: actually wrote yes anyway, and then she wrote it became evidence,
Speaker 2: but yeah, she just acknowledged that, yeah, things were happening
Speaker 2: to her as well.
Speaker 1: Okay, so this is all on the Sunday Sunday morning.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Now you're a teacher, yeah, and so you understand like
Speaker 1: mandatory reporting also about your responsibility as a teacher not
Speaker 1: contaminating kids, evidence or leading questions, how did you spend
Speaker 1: that Sunday morning? I'm just trying to comprehend it, and
Speaker 1: I wanted to start to talk about it so people
Speaker 1: comprehend how a life can be changed in that split moment.
Speaker 2: Look, I think so. We also have an older daughter, Maggie,
Speaker 2: and I had a conversation with her as well on
Speaker 2: that morning, and she indicated that she had no knowledge
Speaker 2: what I was talking about. And then because Leon's wife
Speaker 2: was really close with our family, you know, for us,
Speaker 2: we considered her like a pseudo grandparent for us, I
Speaker 2: didn't feel comfortable having this knowledge and not having a
Speaker 2: conversation with her because they were literally literally at our
Speaker 2: house the day before. You know, so Brent took the
Speaker 2: girl's Brent, my husband, took the girls to the park,
Speaker 2: and I invited her around just to have a chat
Speaker 2: and to help me choose address.
Speaker 1: You know, I just like that was the way that
Speaker 1: you invited. Just so people understand when we refer to
Speaker 1: Leon and Jen, Leon being Jen's partner, that's not their
Speaker 1: real names because there's a cord order out, But can
Speaker 1: you describe what relationship, how they fitted into the family
Speaker 1: family situation.
Speaker 2: Yeah, Look, we moved to Aubrey from Kutamundra. I grew
Speaker 2: up in Kutemundra. We moved down to Aubrey when Maggie,
Speaker 2: I eldest, was eight weeks old, and I went back
Speaker 2: to work about six months after that and needed somebody
Speaker 2: to help, yeah, look after the kids. And we found Jen.
Speaker 2: She was a lady who was happy to to help
Speaker 2: us out with that, and she became like our family.
Speaker 2: She was retired at that point, she'd been retired for
Speaker 2: about a year, but she was still taking care of
Speaker 2: Rose for us a couple of days a week and
Speaker 2: you know, whoever away, she would look after the girls.
Speaker 1: And so how long had you known Jen and Leon?
Speaker 2: For?
Speaker 1: Ten years? Ten years? And I know in the document
Speaker 1: you wrote about that, I've got to say it was
Speaker 1: very very powerful the way you put the words down
Speaker 1: on how this since impacted on you. But Leon was
Speaker 1: looked on almost like a de facto grandfather. Yeah, I
Speaker 1: think if I remember rightly, he would go to the
Speaker 1: school for Grandparents' Day yea, and things like that.
Speaker 2: Yeah, do all those things, go to dancing concerts you
Speaker 2: know with Jen and Yeah, So they were they were
Speaker 2: essentially like grandparents, you know. Then they say, when you
Speaker 2: move town's friends of the family, you make for yourself,
Speaker 2: and that's sort of what we felt like we had
Speaker 2: with them, and to you know, some of their family
Speaker 2: members as well. So yeah, it was.
Speaker 1: Yeah, so there's a shock and just trying to articulate
Speaker 1: what you're going through there. You've got the horror of
Speaker 1: what your your daughters have said to you, and then
Speaker 1: the betrayal of trust with Leon and Jen. And this
Speaker 1: is a Sunday morning, and you can't just sit with this.
Speaker 1: This is not the situation where you can just sit
Speaker 1: and ponder. So you'll invite the Jen over to your
Speaker 1: over to your house on the pretense of picking out
Speaker 1: the dress or yeah.
Speaker 2: And look, I did it that way. And I actually
Speaker 2: got accused of being deceiving in court because I said
Speaker 2: that I had done it in that way.
Speaker 1: Don't worry, we'll be talking about later on.
Speaker 2: But I did it that way because he Jen had
Speaker 2: always been around to our house. You visited, and he
Speaker 2: didn't really come around in my mind, he was Jen's husband.
Speaker 2: Jen looked after our kids.
Speaker 1: That was a family case.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, and yeah, so I he had been coming
Speaker 2: around more frequently, which it was fine, but it was
Speaker 2: just different. And I didn't want him to be there,
Speaker 2: obviously for obvious reasons. So I invited Jen around and
Speaker 2: their daughter. They came around and I spoke to her
Speaker 2: and I told her exactly what Rose had said, and
Speaker 2: I showed her what Pipa had written. And I thought
Speaker 2: she would be angry. I thought she'd have a goal
Speaker 2: at me. I think if someone said that to me
Speaker 2: about someone I loved, my first reaction would be to defend.
Speaker 2: She didn't. Yeah, her reaction was, oh my god, Oh
Speaker 2: my godly and what have you done? What have you
Speaker 2: done to our girls?
Speaker 1: So the conversation that it must have been difficult when
Speaker 1: confronting how long did it go on for?
Speaker 2: Look that was she was probably there for about ten minutes,
Speaker 2: and then she actually went and got him. So she
Speaker 2: left and went and picked him up and brought him
Speaker 2: back to the house.
Speaker 1: You're there on your own, but Brent's got the girls.
Speaker 2: Girls.
Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, what happened when he came back?
Speaker 2: So he came back in and I could hear him
Speaker 2: on the way in, you know, saying, oh, this is ridiculous,
Speaker 2: this is ridiculous, And you know, he walked into the
Speaker 2: back room of our house. And I was just sitting
Speaker 2: there and I you know, I think he saw the
Speaker 2: look on my face, and yeah, he sort of backpedaled
Speaker 2: a little bit because he could say that you know,
Speaker 2: we were taking it. You know that it was ridiculous.
Speaker 2: And he was saying, oh, you know, you can't believe this,
Speaker 2: you can't believe it, and you know, just he was unreasonable.
Speaker 2: His shirt was inside out. I still just remember that
Speaker 2: his shirt was inside out, because the most ridiculous thing
Speaker 2: to remember. But you know, I was just the thing.
Speaker 2: I was like, oh my god, your shirt's inside out.
Speaker 2: You didn't e put you shirt on properly?
Speaker 1: Well, his little dirty secrets finally, yeah, the sounds of it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And anyway, he sort of sat down and I
Speaker 2: just said, and he's trying to can vince me that
Speaker 2: this is a lie. You know, this isn't true, Michelley,
Speaker 2: this can't be true. And I just said to him,
Speaker 2: tell me why, And I said no, Actually, I said,
Speaker 2: can you tell me how how Rose could know that
Speaker 2: that happens without it happening. I need you to tell
Speaker 2: me that, because if you can tell me that, then
Speaker 2: this can all go away. Anyway. Then he was like
Speaker 2: faint and he needed a drink, and I just said,
Speaker 2: I just think you need to go anyway. So he
Speaker 2: left and his wife left with him, and then the
Speaker 2: daughter stayed, and then the wife came back in and
Speaker 2: got the daughter and left, and then she came back again.
Speaker 2: The wife came back again, Jen came back again, and
Speaker 2: she just said to me, She goes, what are we
Speaker 2: going to do? I don't know what to do. I
Speaker 2: don't know what to do. And I just said, well,
Speaker 2: you know what I have to do. And so and
Speaker 2: I had, actually, and I don't know why I did
Speaker 2: what I did, but I had packed up everything that
Speaker 2: she gave me. So I had a casserole dish because
Speaker 2: she'd made some dinner for us a couple of weeks early.
Speaker 2: And you know, she gave me a necklace for my birthday.
Speaker 2: I put all these things and just gave them to
Speaker 2: her because I just didn't Yeah, I.
Speaker 1: Think an understandable move, like I want it's probably subconsciously
Speaker 1: I want you out of my life. I don't want
Speaker 1: to have anything to do with you. So what are
Speaker 1: we going to do? What are we going to do?
Speaker 1: I suppose the question the obvious answer, as you said, well,
Speaker 1: what do you think we're going to do. Yeah, of course,
Speaker 1: it's a matter that it's got to be reported. Okay,
Speaker 1: so you've dealt with that. I'm just trying to get
Speaker 1: a sense of it because reading what you wrote down
Speaker 1: about it, and it was a long Yeah, it was
Speaker 1: a condensed version of a book you describing this, but
Speaker 1: I've got to say, it's so confronting. But the way
Speaker 1: you articulated and what I hope people that listen today
Speaker 1: this is the impact that it's not. I think when
Speaker 1: we see on the news, we see o pedophiles being charged,
Speaker 1: ten kids have been assaulted, that type of thing. Happy
Speaker 1: to see people being caught, but we don't understand the
Speaker 1: ramifications and the flow on the fact that there's a
Speaker 1: ripple effect that goes with this type of crime, isn't there?
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, look there is. And you know it was
Speaker 2: that was sort of early in the day. I think
Speaker 2: we'd probably got up to about eleven thirty by this point,
Speaker 2: and Brent bought the girls back home. I'd made a
Speaker 2: phone call to the girls' school principal, and I think
Speaker 2: that subconsciously that was my way of not having to
Speaker 2: make the report. Okay, yep, I didn't want to have
Speaker 2: to make the report.
Speaker 1: Man, the story report it. So, yeah, brought to the
Speaker 1: attention of the school, yep.
Speaker 2: Yeah. And so she came around that afternoon, and I
Speaker 2: actually can't really remember what happened while she was there.
Speaker 2: You know, I was asked questions about that again during
Speaker 2: the trial, and I can't remember. I can tell you
Speaker 2: everything that happened in the morning, but that I think
Speaker 2: I sort of handed over the rain for about forty
Speaker 2: minutes because I just needed to not think. And then
Speaker 2: we called the police, and we also called good a
Speaker 2: couple of good friends who came in and got Maggie.
Speaker 1: How old was Maggie at the time. She was only ten, Okay,
Speaker 1: so we're looking at five eight and ten.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah. And she went with friends of ours. They
Speaker 2: had no idea what they were doing there. They knew
Speaker 2: that something had happened, and they just came and got
Speaker 2: her and took her to their house and went and
Speaker 2: did fun things, and we waited for the police to come.
Speaker 2: And you know, in my naivity or ignorance or whatever
Speaker 2: it is, I think everyone's the same, though in this situation,
Speaker 2: I didn't realize it. You called the police around, and
Speaker 2: that's just the first responders that they weren't going to
Speaker 2: talk to the girls that you know, we started this journey.
Speaker 1: That was well, I think it's interesting to explain this
Speaker 1: to people, and just so people understand what the processes
Speaker 1: are because by understanding that, the I won't say it
Speaker 1: makes it easier, but you've got an appreciation of the
Speaker 1: step by step. So you call the police, you call
Speaker 1: the local police, they'll send the a viable car crew round.
Speaker 1: So whoever's on the car crew will come around and
Speaker 1: knock on the door. Yet, how can I help you?
Speaker 1: And you explain that situation, So take us through what
Speaker 1: happened then.
Speaker 2: Yeah, So they came around and I assumed that they
Speaker 2: would want to speak to the girls and they said, oh, no,
Speaker 2: like we're not allowed to talk to the girls. There's
Speaker 2: a team that do that. And I was like okay,
Speaker 2: and I said, well, what do you need from us?
Speaker 2: And you know, they said, oh, we need to talk
Speaker 2: to you and your husband. So and they just took
Speaker 2: the initial report. And you know, while we were doing that,
Speaker 2: Brent was understandably just upset. We both were. I was pacing,
Speaker 2: like I think I looked like a mad woman. I
Speaker 2: was pacing up and down the laundroom and just saying
Speaker 2: to these poor poor guys, you know, it's not like
Speaker 2: we sit here watching porn. It's not like we do.
Speaker 2: Like I was just saying the most random things. Whatever's
Speaker 2: coming to.
Speaker 1: My head, the things that you running through your mind.
Speaker 1: How would my girls at that age talk about these
Speaker 1: type of things? Where did they get that?
Speaker 2: I wanted? I wanted there to be a reason other
Speaker 2: than what it was.
Speaker 1: From from the mother's point of view, I can fully
Speaker 1: understand that that you'd be looking for. No, this is
Speaker 1: just a horrible mistake.
Speaker 2: And yeah, yeah, anyway, and this this big burly police
Speaker 2: officer was sitting there, and you know, I'm ranting walking
Speaker 2: back and forward, and I just looked at him and
Speaker 2: I stopped because he just had a tear. And he said, no,
Speaker 2: it happened, because it happened. It just happened. And yeah, anyway,
Speaker 2: they were great, and Brent sort of got up and
Speaker 2: walked out. We didn't even recognize one of the police
Speaker 2: officers was someone he'd played footy with, Like, we just
Speaker 2: didn't even recognizing. That's a state that we were in
Speaker 2: at the time. Yeah, so they they came in, they said, look,
Speaker 2: you know someone will be in touch with you from
Speaker 2: the child abuse squad. Didn't know that was one of
Speaker 2: those you know, someone to be in touch with you
Speaker 2: and yeah, and we'll get back, And so I just
Speaker 2: assumed that the next morning we'd have a phone call
Speaker 2: or that even that afternoon, and we sort of got
Speaker 2: We took the girls to school the next day. Okay,
Speaker 2: yeah we did.
Speaker 1: And like taking the girls to school. But I would
Speaker 1: imagine that the balancing neck that you've got as a
Speaker 1: parent is this has happened, that it's got to be
Speaker 1: followed up, and we've got to address this, but you've
Speaker 1: also got kids. Kids have got to get on with
Speaker 1: her life. That's that's a difficult, difficult part of juggling.
Speaker 2: I beat myself up about that for a little taking them, yeah,
Speaker 2: for taking them to school, because there was part of
Speaker 2: me that was I just did it because that's what
Speaker 2: you did. You know, at school, We're going to school.
Speaker 2: And then the school counselor is actually something that I
Speaker 2: had gone to school with and she met me on
Speaker 2: the playground and took me into a room and I
Speaker 2: lost it, and you know, it's like I can't believe
Speaker 2: I bought them here, you know, And just like they're
Speaker 2: safe here. You know, they're safe here, They've got their
Speaker 2: friends here. You know, it's okay. And it wasn't until
Speaker 2: a few months later that I sort of was processing
Speaker 2: it again and a counselor said to me, she said, look,
Speaker 2: you know, I can see that this is really troubling you,
Speaker 2: she said, but you need to understand and give yourself
Speaker 2: a bit of a break. So that day, your kid's
Speaker 2: life got better. It was your life that changed.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that was an interesting Yeah, I wrote that down.
Speaker 1: That was an interesting, interesting twist.
Speaker 2: And it kind of gave me a bit of grace.
Speaker 2: So I sort of could sit with that and be
Speaker 2: okay with it, even though I still can't believe I
Speaker 2: did it.
Speaker 1: Well. I think there's a balancing between if you didn't
Speaker 1: let the kids go to school, they've reported something that
Speaker 1: I'm sure he told them not to tell anyone and
Speaker 1: all that if they've reported that and then you stop
Speaker 1: them going to school, they might think, oh, that's right,
Speaker 1: Look I've done wrong. It's so confusing for kids understanding
Speaker 1: what's going on with this before we move on, So
Speaker 1: we'll just pause it at that point where the girls
Speaker 1: have disclosed this to you, you've spoken to the perpetrator,
Speaker 1: you've spoken to the wife of the perpetrator, and you've
Speaker 1: informed the police. Describe the girls, because you talk about
Speaker 1: that your life prior and then then post describe the
Speaker 1: girls to me and the family life that you were
Speaker 1: living up until that point.
Speaker 2: Look, we had a really what seemed to be an
Speaker 2: ideally life, really I call it. We were living the
Speaker 2: Australian dream. You know. We were both working, We had
Speaker 2: a home that was lovely, We had a great group
Speaker 2: of friends. We participated in sport. The girls played sport.
Speaker 2: They you know, they did their dancing and they did
Speaker 2: their basketball. Yeah, we wore to skied, you know, we
Speaker 2: did all the you know, really fun you know, typical things.
Speaker 2: I'm glad the girls were the age they were when
Speaker 2: this came out. It's ridiculous as it sounds, because in
Speaker 2: terms of our family and probably Brennan and my relationship too,
Speaker 2: we're in that good space.
Speaker 1: You know.
Speaker 2: The kids could do things a little bit independently. We
Speaker 2: could have a conversation, you know, all those things that
Speaker 2: you can't do when your kids are really little. But yeah,
Speaker 2: we just had a typical, a really a good life.
Speaker 2: We were happy and We had Mags who was quiet
Speaker 2: and shy but really creative and caring, and you know,
Speaker 2: the best big sister, Pip was spirited. You know, they
Speaker 2: were the words that we used about her. And she
Speaker 2: was that kid that would dress herself and I would
Speaker 2: have parents say, I can't believe you let her leave
Speaker 2: the house like that, but she thought she looked amazing
Speaker 2: and she wore it well. And Rose was just everybody's friend,
Speaker 2: you know, she she was Yeah, that was just the
Speaker 2: way she was. She could talk to adults, she could
Speaker 2: talk to children, and she you know, she was just great.
Speaker 1: Well, you've described the type of life that most of
Speaker 1: us aspired to it and you're going along happily and
Speaker 1: then this this kicks in. So I think people often
Speaker 1: when the police are called them the way that you articulated,
Speaker 1: you thought, Okay, the police are here, Now everything's going
Speaker 1: to happen straight away, and that saw that out and
Speaker 1: all that. It's so far from the case. It's not funny,
Speaker 1: isn't it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And almost like having the ideally life was almost
Speaker 2: a curse because as far as the police were concerned
Speaker 2: and as far as you know, social services and all
Speaker 2: of those things who were involved our kids were safe.
Speaker 1: So the child at risks all people out and you.
Speaker 2: Know, which is great, but we didn't realize that that
Speaker 2: meant they Yeah, they go to the bottom of the pile,
Speaker 2: so to speak, you know, And and it's it's actually
Speaker 2: quite confronting to understand that you do get needed, you
Speaker 2: do have to go to the bottom of the pub
Speaker 2: because there is so much need.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, it's just synonymous with how many kids are
Speaker 1: sexually abused.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, and people don't know it. They just don't
Speaker 2: know it.
Speaker 1: People don't know it. I'm seeing it more and more,
Speaker 1: and that when we're having the conversation the other day,
Speaker 1: I was speaking to you about the podcast series I
Speaker 1: did in prison and the amount of the people I
Speaker 1: met in prison that were victims of childhood sexual abuse
Speaker 1: and it just perpetuates and they carry that for the
Speaker 1: rest of their life and often make poor life choices
Speaker 1: based on what's happened with your your story. I think
Speaker 1: it was eight days before the police actually came and
Speaker 1: interviewed the children.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and it wasn't you know. That was another thing
Speaker 2: about living regionally too. I think was a bit of
Speaker 2: an issue there because we knew the lead detective from
Speaker 2: child abuse squad, so we couldn't well, it was better
Speaker 2: not to be interviewed by him, so there was no
Speaker 2: conflict of interest. So we had to wait for somebody
Speaker 2: else to come back from holidays as well, so there
Speaker 2: was a bit of a wait time there. So for
Speaker 2: us and for the girls, particularly Pippa, who was spirited
Speaker 2: and had this really strong sense of justice, it was like, well,
Speaker 2: I told you this thing. I no longer get to
Speaker 2: see Jen, and you know everything that he said was true.
Speaker 2: People don't believe you. People don't want to talk about it,
Speaker 2: and I'm not going to I'm not going to talk
Speaker 2: to the police. They've waited too long.
Speaker 1: That would break your heart as a parent hearing that
Speaker 1: and explaining that peop is concerned about not seeing Jen.
Speaker 1: That was because Jen was such a prominent part in
Speaker 1: their life and mister creepy or Leon has put it
Speaker 1: in their heads that if you talk about this, all
Speaker 1: bad things are going to happen. And she's saying that
Speaker 1: there's exactly and true and did you notice see their
Speaker 1: behavior in that? And I'm talking like I'm sure the
Speaker 1: further impacts and the way the matter went through court
Speaker 1: from telling you was there a change in the kids
Speaker 1: now that they bought it out in that week waiting
Speaker 1: for the police.
Speaker 2: For Rose, Rose had this, it was like she'd been
Speaker 2: given permission to say whatever, you know, So the damn
Speaker 2: wall had broken, and she didn't have an understanding of
Speaker 2: you know, every time she was telling me something, the
Speaker 2: impact that it was having, I was. I was really
Speaker 2: grateful and glad that she could she could talk about it,
Speaker 2: but it was really hard to listen to.
Speaker 1: So she now that she's comfortable telling you what's happened,
Speaker 1: and she's revealing you details that no parent would want
Speaker 1: to hear, I would imagine.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's it for Pippa. She she was sort of
Speaker 2: old enough to start feeling bit of shame and a
Speaker 2: bit of embarrassment, think you could say, and then that
Speaker 2: real angry No one cares anyway, Why did we tell
Speaker 2: because everything's changed, you know, everything's changed. We don't get
Speaker 2: to see Jen anymore. But no one even cares because
Speaker 2: no one's you know. So so she and she really
Speaker 2: withdrew and was a little bit angry that Rose had
Speaker 2: told us. Maggie she didn't really understand what was going
Speaker 2: on for the girls because obviously we didn't tell her
Speaker 2: what they told us, but she was angry with them
Speaker 2: because her life changed too. So she didn't get to
Speaker 2: see Jen either, and she didn't know her, you know,
Speaker 2: she she didn't know anyone but her like for her,
Speaker 2: Jen was as close as any family member.
Speaker 1: Another difficult part I would imagine is that because you're
Speaker 1: trying to protect the children from contamination their evidence. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and you're aware of that from what you would have
Speaker 1: given knowledge as a school teacher. But I'm just trying
Speaker 1: to imagine the family dynamics. You'd want to sit down
Speaker 1: with the whole family and talk it through and let
Speaker 1: them support each other and all that I can't that
Speaker 1: wasn't available to So it just adds another layer to it,
Speaker 1: doesn't it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And look, that's one of the you know, we
Speaker 2: found out since that that's one of the things that
Speaker 2: they use in court to try and separate cases, which
Speaker 2: is tricky, and Brent was probably a little bit more
Speaker 2: savvy about that than I was. He just said, you know,
Speaker 2: they can't talk to one another about this, which, yeah, like,
Speaker 2: in hindsight, that was a really great thing in terms
Speaker 2: of the court, but as you say, for them, and
Speaker 2: it probably was difficult for them in their own relationship
Speaker 2: with one another.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And I would imagine as a child being told
Speaker 1: you can't talk about this is almost inferring the you've
Speaker 1: done something wrong in their minds. I would imagine that
Speaker 1: type of narrative if it's been fed to them that
Speaker 1: they would have felt, well, why can't I talk I've
Speaker 1: done nothing wrong? And then well you can't tell your
Speaker 1: sister or talk to people about it. So it's such
Speaker 1: a complex situation. We've talked about the impact with your daughters,
Speaker 1: what about yourself and your husband?
Speaker 2: This is yeah, Look, and I know it was something
Speaker 2: when I wrote a blog that isn't publicly available anymore,
Speaker 2: just because.
Speaker 1: It's and that's a document I'm referring to. And I
Speaker 1: might add, like I read that, I was angry, sad,
Speaker 1: and full of mixed emotions. It was such a revealing
Speaker 1: account of what you guys have been.
Speaker 2: For well, as I said, I hadn't read it since
Speaker 2: for a little while. I read it on my way
Speaker 2: it made me cry, Oh dear, I haven't done this
Speaker 2: for a while. But look, I think for me it
Speaker 2: was that experience to you know, to write down some
Speaker 2: of these things was experience for me just to get
Speaker 2: my thoughts out on paper, because you know, how do
Speaker 2: you talk to people about this sort of stuff, And
Speaker 2: you know, even just in terms of intimacy with with
Speaker 2: ya husband, I did not want to be touched because
Speaker 2: I'm hearing these things and sex was made dirty, you know,
Speaker 2: and because of what was happening and what we were hearing.
Speaker 2: And when I say we, it was it was me,
Speaker 2: like the girls were telling me. So that was a
Speaker 2: really you.
Speaker 1: Know, say side that I hadn't thought when I'm talking
Speaker 1: about your blog in that it really made me think
Speaker 1: about the why their impact because I hadn't even considered
Speaker 1: that the parents of the child that's been sexually sold
Speaker 1: and then intimacy becomes a problem. But it's so understandable
Speaker 1: why you'd be thinking, not why all this is going on?
Speaker 2: Well, Brent would be mortified and the girls would be
Speaker 2: worse because I'm talking about it, but it is a reality,
Speaker 2: and that's not something that anyone would have told us about.
Speaker 2: And that's why I did write it down at the time,
Speaker 2: because I thought, well, you know, this is something I
Speaker 2: wish someone had said. You know, it's totally normal to
Speaker 2: not ever feel like doing that again, you know, when
Speaker 2: you're hearing these things that you know. But then you
Speaker 2: start going, well, that's not what that was. That was
Speaker 2: somebody exerting power.
Speaker 1: It's abuse.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, so you know in the ration of brain
Speaker 2: kicks in, isn't you.
Speaker 1: But then there was another thing. And again I apologize
Speaker 1: if Brent doesn't want to hear this, but I mean
Speaker 1: in support of him on this is that when we'll
Speaker 1: keep it in the chronological order how the investigation evolved.
Speaker 1: But I'm talking generally when people are finding out the
Speaker 1: comments from other Blakes. If someone did that to my kid,
Speaker 1: I'd kill them, or I'd do this, I'd do that,
Speaker 1: And I would imagine if that was kept the response
Speaker 1: that Brent would have got. And that's a very blaky
Speaker 1: thing to say. And I know, yeah, so many Blakes
Speaker 1: would be saying saying the same thing. You'd start be
Speaker 1: looking at yourself going, well, why aren't I feel like
Speaker 1: killing him? Which he probably did feel like killing him,
Speaker 1: But as you articulate that he's a sensible, rational, reasonable person,
Speaker 1: that's not going to achieve anything there. But it's just
Speaker 1: another layer, isn't it. Like Brent would be thinking, well,
Speaker 1: all these people thinking I'm weak because I haven't gone
Speaker 1: around them bash this, but he had.
Speaker 2: Some really interesting thoughts, and again, like it's one of
Speaker 2: those things that in hindsight we've spoken about. But he
Speaker 2: said if he had a dollar for every time someone
Speaker 2: said that, it would be rich. But the other thing
Speaker 2: was that he was reluctant to have kids stay at
Speaker 2: our house because he worried that people would think that
Speaker 2: he was perpetrated and you know, things that he knew
Speaker 2: that that was an irrational thought because you know, obviously
Speaker 2: he was still living in our home and all of
Speaker 2: those things, but it made him think about his role
Speaker 2: as a man a little bit differently. But yeah, I
Speaker 2: loved and I love looking back and seeing that for
Speaker 2: him it was about getting around and going into that
Speaker 2: real protection mode rather than I'm really pleased that he
Speaker 2: didn't do anything, you know, because that would have just
Speaker 2: made everything a whole lot harder.
Speaker 1: Well, actually, and this is a compliment to him and
Speaker 1: what I took away from it, he showed himself to
Speaker 1: be a man and the way he supported you guys
Speaker 1: and protected these daughters. But yeah, a.
Speaker 2: Lot of people commented that it was unusual. So people
Speaker 2: who've worked in their space in child protection or in
Speaker 2: child to be squad. They commented on, you know how
Speaker 2: unique it was to have both of us so involved
Speaker 2: in the process, and so we were lucky, And I
Speaker 2: say we were lucky.
Speaker 1: It's interesting you say that, but I think you're probably
Speaker 1: right on that, because I see a lot of men
Speaker 1: pull away from it's too confronting, and I'm here supporting
Speaker 1: you but not really supporting.
Speaker 2: Yeah, he didn't really have a choice.
Speaker 1: All right, I'm trying to give him credit and.
Speaker 2: It was great.
Speaker 1: No, you're only joking. So, okay, eight days it's taken.
Speaker 1: The police have turned up. Did they get the statements
Speaker 1: at home or did they take them away to the station.
Speaker 1: So all this is just flipping young kids' lives upside down,
Speaker 1: isn't it? So what tell us the process there?
Speaker 2: So the process was we had to find the turtle door,
Speaker 2: which was a door at the police station that was
Speaker 2: the child abuse squad. So we ended up turning it
Speaker 2: into a game, which is probably deliberate from you know,
Speaker 2: the people that worked there. So we found the turtle door.
Speaker 2: Pitt was adamant, she was not going to speak, not
Speaker 2: going to say anything they don't want to hear if
Speaker 2: they wanted to hear they would have been here a
Speaker 2: week ago. You know, all that sort of stuff that
Speaker 2: is stubb an eight and a half year old would say.
Speaker 2: And anyway, so we went in and we met the
Speaker 2: detective and it was detective. It was Glenn, the detective,
Speaker 2: and he he sort of talked to us, and the
Speaker 2: girls were there. They were just sort of playing and
Speaker 2: you know, there was a police hard and Rose had
Speaker 2: that on and you know, all these things and he said,
Speaker 2: you know, he said to us, you know, I just
Speaker 2: want to give you a heads up before we start
Speaker 2: that you know, nine times out of ten this doesn't
Speaker 2: go anywhere. And he said it's not because we don't
Speaker 2: believe the kids, it's because of what we need to
Speaker 2: be able to prove to put them through the process. Anyway,
Speaker 2: that just annoyed me. I was really angry about that.
Speaker 2: And Brent just said, yeah, well, you know, you haven't
Speaker 2: met pepper Mill forp yet. Yeah, and he knew she
Speaker 2: could hear. He said, she is really good at telling
Speaker 2: the truth and making sure that she's protecting other kids,
Speaker 2: so you know, and he sort of just said it
Speaker 2: like that. And anyway, so we sat in this waiting
Speaker 2: room with a really lovely person. So there was the
Speaker 2: joint investigative response to you amount the time people from Yes,
Speaker 2: it's the police, community health and it was docs at
Speaker 2: the time, whenever they've decided to be now community justice. Yeah, anyway,
Speaker 2: so that's who was there. Another issue because we knew
Speaker 2: a lot of people that worked in that space too.
Speaker 1: Again, from what you put down in writing, the country
Speaker 1: town presents its same problems. You're not anonymous and you
Speaker 1: know people, what are you at the police station for?
Speaker 1: Why an't the kids turning up at school? Why aren't
Speaker 1: the kids? Yeah, it's hard to hard to hide. And
Speaker 1: the sad part is there should be no shame to it.
Speaker 1: But it's just such a complex situation, isn't it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's it. Yeah. So you know, and we're sitting
Speaker 2: there and we're putting our kids in this. You know
Speaker 2: that they take them. So your kids go and they
Speaker 2: get interviewed by Australia and.
Speaker 1: I'm not present. That's terrifying.
Speaker 2: And to this day I have never heard what they said.
Speaker 2: I don't know what they said. And Rose and I
Speaker 2: were only discussing it a few days ago and she said,
Speaker 2: I can't, like I know what happened, but I can't
Speaker 2: remember what I said, and she said, I just have
Speaker 2: blocked it out.
Speaker 1: Did they video interview?
Speaker 2: Yeah they did, so they videoed them. Yeah, so then
Speaker 2: that happened. It took a couple of hours to go
Speaker 2: through both the girls, so Pitt went first and then
Speaker 2: Rose went afterwards. And then we sort of got called
Speaker 2: into a room and somebody else was, you know, with
Speaker 2: kids playing doing their thing. We got called into a
Speaker 2: room and that the team were there, and you know,
Speaker 2: Glenn was sort of just sitting there really quietly. You know,
Speaker 2: someone was telling me how well the girls did. Other
Speaker 2: girls did so well, you know, great, I'm so glad
Speaker 2: they could speak about this. It was. It was weird.
Speaker 2: It's like, am I meant to be proud? I don't
Speaker 2: know what to feel here, Like, oh, that's good.
Speaker 1: It's just such a surreal sitution.
Speaker 2: It is. And Brent was very quiet and Glenn was
Speaker 2: very quiet, and then he just sort of like hit
Speaker 2: the desk and he said, I'm charging him, and the
Speaker 2: other two sort of looked quite surprised, and he said, nah,
Speaker 2: I'm charging him. We've got enough anyway, And that was
Speaker 2: sort of, you know, that was that sort of thing,
Speaker 2: and you know, they said, oh, you know, he never
Speaker 2: does that. He never does these. Yeah, so that happened,
Speaker 2: and then it was still I think it was another
Speaker 2: two weeks or so until he was arrested. Probably even longer.
Speaker 2: It was probably three weeks. So we were just in
Speaker 2: this real I called it a holding pattern. It felt
Speaker 2: like there were a number of holding patterns in the
Speaker 2: process because we didn't know the process. We didn't know
Speaker 2: how quickly things would move, and also slowly things would move.
Speaker 2: And I think the thing is that for a lot
Speaker 2: of people, they know what's going on because they do
Speaker 2: it all the time, but forget to share that knowledge.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that not a criticism but advice with
Speaker 1: policing if you keep the victims informed. And I think
Speaker 1: and I've been guilty of it myself as a police officer.
Speaker 1: So you think this is a norm, you'll understand that
Speaker 1: these things take time. But most people, most decent people
Speaker 1: and people are victims of crime, haven't come in contact
Speaker 1: with police. You know, there's so many decent people out
Speaker 1: there that don't come into contact with police. So this
Speaker 1: is a world that you're you're not familiar with. Yeah,
Speaker 1: what was going through the girls minds? With all this
Speaker 1: like it's I'm looking at the assaults have happened, the
Speaker 1: trauma that's associated with that, telling you and then all
Speaker 1: of a sudden they're dragged into a world that's almost incomprehensible.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and look, I think, you know, it is one
Speaker 2: of those things where you have to ask them, so think.
Speaker 2: But you know, we obviously have had conversations and through
Speaker 2: that advocacy that we've done that they have shared their
Speaker 2: views on it. Rose is interesting because you know, she
Speaker 2: she has said before, you know, I had this man
Speaker 2: doing things to me and saying, you can't tell anybody,
Speaker 2: You can't tell anybody, and then I had people saying
Speaker 2: you have to tell me everything. And it was, you know,
Speaker 2: trying to balance that out. And again strangers and people
Speaker 2: who who she didn't know. Glenn's one of Rose's favorite
Speaker 2: people in the world.
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, full full credit to them if they're special people,
Speaker 1: the detectives that work there.
Speaker 2: But she still couldn't she still couldn't tell him, you know,
Speaker 2: and again he was a stranger at the beginning. But yeah,
Speaker 2: it was still really difficult, and she didn't have a language,
Speaker 2: she didn't have a language for it. So yeah, she
Speaker 2: kind of looked like she was just getting on with things,
Speaker 2: and she was quite funny. She came up to me.
Speaker 2: We've been at a baptism, were outside the church afterwards,
Speaker 2: just standing around chatting, and she ran over to me
Speaker 2: and she goes, oh, I've just kept like these two girls.
Speaker 2: I've just kept these two girls safe. And I'm like,
Speaker 2: what do you mean how have you kept them safe?
Speaker 2: And she said, well, I told them that you can't
Speaker 2: let people liki vaginas.
Speaker 1: We're laughing, and I think it's probably the only way
Speaker 1: that it's how old she.
Speaker 2: Oh that was. It was just in the weeks after Okay.
Speaker 1: So those yeah, okay, this is how how complex it gets,
Speaker 1: isn't it. It's because it's such an unnatural situation to
Speaker 1: find yourself in. Yeah, and you've got kids with their
Speaker 1: little children in minds, trying to comprehend what's going on.
Speaker 1: And she thinks she's done well. And you can imagine
Speaker 1: the girls going back and telling their parents.
Speaker 2: I know, so it sort of it forced this conversation.
Speaker 2: So you know, you know, I just told them you
Speaker 2: can't let people do these things to you, and very graphically,
Speaker 2: and I was just thinking, oh, dear, anyway, So I
Speaker 2: did have to have a conversation. Fortunately, one of the
Speaker 2: girls mum's was a good friend of mine and she'd
Speaker 2: sort of helped. She'd stepped into that role, you know,
Speaker 2: straight after she got really practical. She was great and said,
Speaker 2: I will look after Rose on these days until she
Speaker 2: goes to school, and you will do this. And yeah,
Speaker 2: she was great in that way, so she already knew.
Speaker 2: But this other poor mom, she had no idea, you know.
Speaker 2: But Rose, you know, went into that oh, well, you know,
Speaker 2: I can protect people. So she had that very like
Speaker 2: it was a very childlike innocence. Still. Yeah, so Rose
Speaker 2: went into that protection mode and I think that's just
Speaker 2: the way she is, and that's the way she'll always be.
Speaker 2: Pipa with Drew.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and that's sad, isn't when the kids internalizing, Yeah
Speaker 1: things could be a moment.
Speaker 2: Yeah, she Withdrew just got these very vibrant blue eyes
Speaker 2: and they're dull.
Speaker 1: Sorry, you don't have to be sorry. I'll just put
Speaker 1: a bit of light on it that I've seen the
Speaker 1: means of you the recent as an older children talking
Speaker 1: about the advocacy that they're doing. You're going to be
Speaker 1: proud of them.
Speaker 2: Oh, absolutely, beautiful, articulate girls. Yeah, and look, I think
Speaker 2: you know that was part of the part of the
Speaker 2: difficulty for all of them. And as I said, Mags,
Speaker 2: Mags was great. She understood why things happened the way
Speaker 2: they did. She hated that our whole life changed because
Speaker 2: of what happened. But she's always been really supportive of
Speaker 2: the girls and always protective too, very honest. But I
Speaker 2: think not being able to tell her friends or not
Speaker 2: be able to talk about why it was, she felt sad.
Speaker 2: So she looked like this siok, you know, she looked
Speaker 2: like this sook and the kids didn't know why, and yeah,
Speaker 2: it was just it was rough.
Speaker 1: It's a live in hell, isn't it. It's a live
Speaker 1: in hell? And so many things that counterintuitive to kids
Speaker 1: have come out and told you. But you can't tell
Speaker 1: your friends like they don't know the intricacies of a
Speaker 1: legal system and why you can't discuss it with other people.
Speaker 1: It's just so difficult for them.
Speaker 2: And we did actually approach a couple of parents, and
Speaker 2: this is no disrespect to them at all, just to say,
Speaker 2: would it be possible for to share a little bit
Speaker 2: of what's happened, not in detail, just so that there
Speaker 2: was a bit more understanding, and they said, oh, we
Speaker 2: would prefer our kids not to know that that sort
Speaker 2: of thing happens, and are seeing me too. Yeah, And
Speaker 2: you know, how fortunate that they didn't have to deal
Speaker 2: with that, because sometimes I think it is just a
Speaker 2: bit of luck, like we never expected this to be
Speaker 2: our story.
Speaker 1: Sitting down and talking now, and this is importance of
Speaker 1: getting this out. People got to understand. This is the
Speaker 1: nature of the crime, the insidious way that people, they pray,
Speaker 1: they manipulate situations to get to vulnerable, vulnerable children. Another
Speaker 1: thing that you were going through and your husband was
Speaker 1: second guessing yourself, like the red flags that you line
Speaker 1: them all up with the benefit of pine sight, How
Speaker 1: did you miss this? How did you miss that? Tell
Speaker 1: us about some of the red flags in isolation. I
Speaker 1: wouldn't think anything of it either, But these are the
Speaker 1: type of things if we achieved something here, have people
Speaker 1: look out for these type of things because they seem
Speaker 1: innocent on the surface, but just little things that when
Speaker 1: you look back and think, okay, was what was happening there?
Speaker 2: So I think one of the first things was repeat
Speaker 2: UTIs so you're new tract in factions are. Remember the
Speaker 2: pediatrician saying to me, is there any chance that anything
Speaker 2: has happened to the girls, And what do you mean?
Speaker 2: And anyway he said it, he said, I said it again,
Speaker 2: and I was just like no, Like I couldn't think
Speaker 2: of anybody. You couldn't think of anybody in our life
Speaker 2: because to me, Jen was looking after our girls. I
Speaker 2: never he wasn't a consideration in my mind. So there
Speaker 2: was that very quiet and Shy was one of one
Speaker 2: of the girls not wanting to stay over there anymore. Incontinents,
Speaker 2: We had incontinents. There was some inappropriate touching that happened
Speaker 2: one time that I recalled and it was like, oh, no,
Speaker 2: you can't do that. Because I was that parent and
Speaker 2: was saying you're not allowed to let people touch you.
Speaker 2: Your vagina is private. I was doing that and I
Speaker 2: was using the word but you know again, that's the
Speaker 2: way these people operate. So yeah, there were lots of
Speaker 2: little flags. Rose and this is sort of a well
Speaker 2: known story. Now, she wanted me to make her a cape.
Speaker 2: So I made her this superhero cape. She was super
Speaker 2: Rose and she wanted her superpower to be invisible. And
Speaker 2: I was like, all right, Well, we'll see how we go,
Speaker 2: you know. So we made this cape and it was,
Speaker 2: you know, fabulous cape. And she brought it home from
Speaker 2: their house one day and she put it on the
Speaker 2: ground and stomped on it. I was like, what are
Speaker 2: you doing and she said, it doesn't work. Yeah, And
Speaker 2: I said, what do you mean it doesn't work? And
Speaker 2: then she said he still found me. I was like,
Speaker 2: who's still founding and she said, oh, Leon and I
Speaker 2: you know, at the time, I was like, oh, they
Speaker 2: must have been playing hard and seek did not even
Speaker 2: give it. And that's the other thing I've had to
Speaker 2: very deliberately, even though I can look at these things
Speaker 2: and put them all together, I very deliberately decided that
Speaker 2: I can't live in that because it would drive me crazy.
Speaker 2: Brent went to pick Rose up one day and he actually,
Speaker 2: in hindsight, when I think I interrupted something, either it
Speaker 2: was just about to happen, or it had just happened
Speaker 2: because he turned up at a time that he didn't usually.
Speaker 2: So he's advice to people who's always don't be too regular,
Speaker 2: you know, don't be too regular, don't be too obvious.
Speaker 1: We want to make it hard for these people. But
Speaker 1: they're very skilled manipulators, and.
Speaker 2: They manipulate our whole family and.
Speaker 1: That's what they that's how they get access to the children.
Speaker 1: The victim describe describe him like describe the top of person.
Speaker 1: That is.
Speaker 2: I didn't particularly like him. I really liked Jen, Like
Speaker 2: the minute I met her. I really liked her. He
Speaker 2: was very confident, a bit smug, a bit of a
Speaker 2: know it all. I think you would say he was
Speaker 2: a know it all. I know that people around the
Speaker 2: town liked Jen, tolerated him. He was nice enough, he
Speaker 2: was great with the kids. The kids loved him. They did,
Speaker 2: you know, they did, because you know, he'd play puzzles
Speaker 2: with them and he'd you know, do this and that. Yeah,
Speaker 2: he was just he was just kind of there. And
Speaker 2: as I said, he was Rose adored him.
Speaker 1: She did I. And it's such a difficult situation because, yeah,
Speaker 1: there's more decent people out there than there are creeps
Speaker 1: like M so everyone can't be tarnish. But I can
Speaker 1: talk from a man's point of view. There's relatives that, Okay,
Speaker 1: you'll be in situations where you're looking after a kid
Speaker 1: on your own, but I wouldn't feel comfortable looking after
Speaker 1: a child on my own. That's not I'm not related to.
Speaker 1: And I know there's a lot of bad things that
Speaker 1: happen within families, but I think from a I have
Speaker 1: a concern when I see someone and it might be
Speaker 1: that family or just a party of gathering and someone's
Speaker 1: always down in the backyard playing, playing, just with the kids.
Speaker 1: I'm not thinking that's adults tend to want to gravitate
Speaker 1: towards adults. Yeah, you can be friendly the kids, you
Speaker 1: can like kids, but anyone's constantly wrestling with kids or ah, look,
Speaker 1: I can look after and make an excuse. I think
Speaker 1: we've got to look out for those those And.
Speaker 2: It's interesting because it was the day before they came
Speaker 2: around to our house and Pippa. We sort of had
Speaker 2: a big room and then we had like a playroom
Speaker 2: off that with massive doors. Yes, quite open, but we
Speaker 2: had a couch around the corner, and Brandon said, I
Speaker 2: went around the corner of the couch, and now that
Speaker 2: I look at I know something was not okay.
Speaker 1: Getting the benefit of the benefit of hindsight.
Speaker 2: So he was getting and that was the thing. I
Speaker 2: think what was happening. He was getting more, He's taking
Speaker 2: more risks. I think and doing things that were hurting,
Speaker 2: physically hurting, and that's why it had to stop.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think, and not just talking your case, but
Speaker 1: any case, if there's doubts or whatever, hindsight, it's a
Speaker 1: wonderful thing looking back. But quite often, yeah, little things
Speaker 1: like that, if someone spending a lot of time with
Speaker 1: kids that are not their own, I'm a little bit
Speaker 1: wary of it and thinking, what's going on here? This
Speaker 1: is and we've got it because it happens so much.
Speaker 1: That's it sickens me. The figures of how many kids
Speaker 1: are sexually abused.
Speaker 2: Well, we didn't have we didn't realize how much time
Speaker 2: he had with them on his own. Like again, for us,
Speaker 2: our kids were going and being looked after by Jen.
Speaker 2: It wasn't until we found out what was happening. You know.
Speaker 2: She would sometimes be upstairs and he'd be downstairs, and
Speaker 2: you know, and that sort of seems to be where
Speaker 2: things were happening. And you know, one of the saddest
Speaker 2: things that Pip said to me was that they were
Speaker 2: there one day and she Maggie was upstairs with Jen
Speaker 2: and she and Rose were downstairs with him, and Maggie said, oh,
Speaker 2: come up lunches ready, and he said, Pip, you go
Speaker 2: up Rose and I'll stay here for a bit. And
Speaker 2: Pip said, no, Rose can go up because she knew
Speaker 2: what he was going to do, and like.
Speaker 1: What a girl protecting a little Yeah so something special,
Speaker 1: isn't she?
Speaker 2: Yeah? Yeah, so you know that happened and that Yeah again,
Speaker 2: as you say, hindsight, but I can't dwell on that.
Speaker 2: I can't live in that. It would drive me mad.
Speaker 1: There's something about child sexual abuse that we have really
Speaker 1: got to work this out because there's no excuse for it,
Speaker 1: there's no mitigation, and it destroys lives.
Speaker 2: It destroys lives.
Speaker 1: And another aspect before we just finish up here in
Speaker 1: part one, that part of the problem that you had,
Speaker 1: and we touched on it, but just how it played out.
Speaker 1: You were concerned that whilst this matter was being investigated,
Speaker 1: they had access to other children and you were waiting
Speaker 1: for risk assessments to be done. But there was a
Speaker 1: period of time over months where a risk assessment wasn't
Speaker 1: done and they still or Leon still had ACCEP actually
Speaker 1: access to children. That must have played on you.
Speaker 2: Well, I had, I was really naive. I was I
Speaker 2: just thought that the police would go and you know,
Speaker 2: interview these other people to make sure I'll let them
Speaker 2: know that there was a risk. And then, you know,
Speaker 2: Glenn explained to me that they can't do that because
Speaker 2: obviously then that can interfere with case downtrack blah blah blah.
Speaker 2: But that docs could because and you know, I'm saying, well,
Speaker 2: I'm a mandatory reporter and I'm letting you know that
Speaker 2: there is a risk, there's a real risk to these.
Speaker 1: Kids, and that must have troubled you. At what point
Speaker 1: do you go, well, stuff for the rules, stuff, what
Speaker 1: we're meant to do. I've got to tell such and
Speaker 1: such mother that well.
Speaker 2: I actually had a friend be a little bit harsh,
Speaker 2: which I'm pleased that she did. Yeah, yeah, it was good,
Speaker 2: but because I kept getting told it was oh, you know,
Speaker 2: it's going to be done, it's going to be done.
Speaker 2: But it was kind of getting past around. It was
Speaker 2: like this you know, political football being passed around, and
Speaker 2: no one wanted to take responsibility for what needed to happen.
Speaker 2: And so my friend said to me, she said, Michelle,
Speaker 2: if you had this knowledge about my children and you
Speaker 2: didn't tell me, I'd be really pissed. How did that
Speaker 2: land on me?
Speaker 1: You know this?
Speaker 2: And this was like a few months later, and I'm thinking,
Speaker 2: how does this land on me?
Speaker 1: Your life has been literally turned upside down. Everything you
Speaker 1: thought was writing life has been flipped.
Speaker 2: I was really concerned that people wouldn't believe us.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it was, well, it's again the nature of the crime.
Speaker 1: Because of this, say, confronting, people choose not to even
Speaker 1: engage in that. Now it couldn't be happening. Who knows.
Speaker 1: Let the courts so they don't have an opinion on it.
Speaker 1: It's heavy, heavy stuff, isn't it the way way it
Speaker 1: impacts We're going to have a break and we're talking.
Speaker 1: If people think this is the end of the story,
Speaker 1: this is just the beginning of the story of what
Speaker 1: you guys had to go through for the next couple
Speaker 1: of years. The system lets us down, doesn't it. It
Speaker 1: drags on like the slow of justice.
Speaker 2: Yeah, but if you jump up and down hard enough,
Speaker 2: you can make some changes.
Speaker 1: Well, that's why I like getting people on the podcast
Speaker 1: that do jump up and down, because they're the ones
Speaker 1: that make the changes. And you've got to scream from
Speaker 1: the rooftop sometimes and yeah, okay, enough said, I think
Speaker 1: we're giving a hint of what we're going to talk
Speaker 1: about in the second part, but just before we finish up,
Speaker 1: I know how hard this is talking about it, and
Speaker 1: in the conversation I've had with you prior to sitting
Speaker 1: down here, it's important people talk about it because I
Speaker 1: think this crime is allowed to flourish because people don't
Speaker 1: talk about it. And I want people listening to your
Speaker 1: story because that's what I got from the lengthy document
Speaker 1: that you created, how much it impacts on lives.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Look, it's one of my firsts, and particularly being
Speaker 2: an educator, I don't think schools talk about it enough.
Speaker 2: You know, we have National Child Protection Week and there's
Speaker 2: schools that don't even acknowledge it. There's a lot of
Speaker 2: work that needs to be done, and you know, we
Speaker 2: need to put the shame where it belongs.
Speaker 1: Good way to finish Part one. Ye, put the shame
Speaker 1: where it belongs. Okay, we'll have a break and we'll
Speaker 1: back shortly.