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Speaker 1: The public has had a long held fascination with detectives.

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Speaker 1: Detective see aside of life the average persons never exposed her.

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Speaker 1: I spent thirty four years as a cop. For twenty

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Speaker 1: five of those years I was catching killers. That's what

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Speaker 1: I did for a living. I was a homicide detective.

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Speaker 1: I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead, I'm taking

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Speaker 1: the public into the world in which I operated. The

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Speaker 1: guests I talk to each week have amazing stories from

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Speaker 1: all sides of the law. The interviews are raw and honest,

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Speaker 1: just like the people I talk to. Some of the

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Speaker 1: content and language might be confronting. That's because no one

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Speaker 1: who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged. Join

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Speaker 1: me now as I take you into this world. Today,

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Speaker 1: I had a conversation with a woman named Michelle Milthorpe.

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Speaker 1: Michelle found out that her daughters had been sexually assaulted

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Speaker 1: by a person who is considered a trusted family friend.

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Speaker 1: This man was treated like a fact our grandfather. He'd

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Speaker 1: gained the trust of the whole family. Now, what Michelle

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Speaker 1: told me about the impact this pedophile had on the children,

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Speaker 1: I think is going to shock you. And it was

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Speaker 1: certainly deeply personal. I've seen and heard so many stories

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Speaker 1: about this type of crime, and I thought they had

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Speaker 1: an understanding about the impact. But Michelle's account of what

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Speaker 1: they went through really opened my eyes. The brazen and

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Speaker 1: despicable way this person not only groomed the children but

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Speaker 1: also the parents of the children so he could pray

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Speaker 1: on these children is I don't know, it's disgusting. We

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Speaker 1: also talked about how these innocent children were treated through

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Speaker 1: the court process. When you hear what Michelle has to say,

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Speaker 1: I think you're going to find it hard to comprehend

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Speaker 1: what happened. So here is my conversation with Michelle Milthorp,

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Speaker 1: the mother of daughters who were sexually assaulted by a pedophile,

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Speaker 1: as a heavy but necessary discussion. So, Michelle, it was

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Speaker 1: a typical Sunday morning two thousand thirteen. You're laying in

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Speaker 1: bed on a Sunday morning and your five year old

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Speaker 1: daughter jumps in the bed and said, Mummy, I've got

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Speaker 1: something to tell you, And then words came out that

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Speaker 1: actually changed changed your life. I think it's fair enough

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Speaker 1: to say change your life that she said words the

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Speaker 1: effect of Mummy, I don't like Leon licking my vagina.

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Speaker 1: Now Leon was a family friend known to the family.

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Speaker 1: We'll talk about more about him later, but from a

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Speaker 1: mother's point of view, from your point of view, had

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Speaker 1: that impact.

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Speaker 2: Oh look, it was as you say, it was just

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Speaker 2: everyday Sunday morning, and we did have our kids were

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Speaker 2: sleeping in our beds and we were frustrated by that.

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Speaker 2: You know, you went a good night sleep anyway. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: Rose said that, and yeah, it shocked me, obviously, it

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Speaker 2: shocked me. I just had this moment where she said it,

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Speaker 2: she repeated it for me, and I went in to

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Speaker 2: what I call professional mode because I thought, you know,

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Speaker 2: there's no way she could say this unless it was happening.

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Speaker 1: It's not the type of type of words the five

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Speaker 1: year old would use.

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Speaker 2: No, no, And I said, oh, you know, that's not great,

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Speaker 2: that's not good. You know, is there anything else that

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Speaker 2: he does that you don't like? Anyway? And she went

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Speaker 2: on to tell me a few other things that were

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Speaker 2: going on that we had no you know, that I

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Speaker 2: had no knowledge of. And then she said, can I

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Speaker 2: watch too too now, which was that ABC children's channel,

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Speaker 2: So she'd sort of dropped this bomb, and then she

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Speaker 2: moved on with her life really really quickly, and I

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Speaker 2: think that's probably pretty indicative of, you know, how things

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Speaker 2: went from there. It was like we were on this

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Speaker 2: parallel track that just jumped everything about that we've sort

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Speaker 2: of became before and after, you know, that very moment

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Speaker 2: for our lives. And yeah, So I went and my

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Speaker 2: husband was down in another bedroom, and I went down

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Speaker 2: and talked to him, and I actually couldn't speak. He

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Speaker 2: thought somebody had died. When I got him, I said,

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Speaker 2: you know, Roses just told me something, and I vomited.

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Speaker 2: I couldn't I couldn't speak. And then I told him

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Speaker 2: what she had said, and then she repeated that to

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Speaker 2: him as well, and it kind of just started this

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Speaker 2: amazing rollercoaster that was really really crap.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that's a fair way of describing as crap.

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Speaker 1: But to hear your door to say those words, and

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Speaker 1: then you've got to process it, dissect the information, and

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Speaker 1: then work out what to do. So what did you do.

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Speaker 2: So for me? When she said it, she actually also

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Speaker 2: said and Pipper told me that he shouldn't do things

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Speaker 2: like that. Old sisters eight eight and a half at

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Speaker 2: the time, and Rosa just turned five. Pit was eight

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Speaker 2: and a half at the time, and so I went

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Speaker 2: down to Pip and I woke her up, and I said, oh,

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Speaker 2: you know, Roses just said something to me that he's

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Speaker 2: a little bit concerning. And you know, she just mentioned

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Speaker 2: that something was happening that she didn't like and somebody

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Speaker 2: was doing things to her that she didn't like, and

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Speaker 2: her entire demeanor changed. I hadn't used names, I hadn't

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Speaker 2: used any information except for that, and she just withdrew

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Speaker 2: into herself and she actually got her pillow and put

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Speaker 2: it over her face anyway, and then I took the

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Speaker 2: pillow off her face, and she just had a tear

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Speaker 2: rolling down her face. And yeah, she couldn't talk. But

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Speaker 2: Pip's always been a really great writer. And I said,

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Speaker 2: would it be easier for you to write down if

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Speaker 2: there's something going on that you don't like? And she

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Speaker 2: actually wrote yes anyway, and then she wrote it became evidence,

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Speaker 2: but yeah, she just acknowledged that, yeah, things were happening

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Speaker 2: to her as well.

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Speaker 1: Okay, so this is all on the Sunday Sunday morning.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Now you're a teacher, yeah, and so you understand like

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Speaker 1: mandatory reporting also about your responsibility as a teacher not

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Speaker 1: contaminating kids, evidence or leading questions, how did you spend

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Speaker 1: that Sunday morning? I'm just trying to comprehend it, and

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Speaker 1: I wanted to start to talk about it so people

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Speaker 1: comprehend how a life can be changed in that split moment.

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Speaker 2: Look, I think so. We also have an older daughter, Maggie,

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Speaker 2: and I had a conversation with her as well on

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Speaker 2: that morning, and she indicated that she had no knowledge

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Speaker 2: what I was talking about. And then because Leon's wife

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Speaker 2: was really close with our family, you know, for us,

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Speaker 2: we considered her like a pseudo grandparent for us, I

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Speaker 2: didn't feel comfortable having this knowledge and not having a

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Speaker 2: conversation with her because they were literally literally at our

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Speaker 2: house the day before. You know, so Brent took the

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Speaker 2: girl's Brent, my husband, took the girls to the park,

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Speaker 2: and I invited her around just to have a chat

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Speaker 2: and to help me choose address.

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Speaker 1: You know, I just like that was the way that

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Speaker 1: you invited. Just so people understand when we refer to

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Speaker 1: Leon and Jen, Leon being Jen's partner, that's not their

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Speaker 1: real names because there's a cord order out, But can

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Speaker 1: you describe what relationship, how they fitted into the family

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Speaker 1: family situation.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, Look, we moved to Aubrey from Kutamundra. I grew

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Speaker 2: up in Kutemundra. We moved down to Aubrey when Maggie,

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Speaker 2: I eldest, was eight weeks old, and I went back

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Speaker 2: to work about six months after that and needed somebody

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Speaker 2: to help, yeah, look after the kids. And we found Jen.

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Speaker 2: She was a lady who was happy to to help

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Speaker 2: us out with that, and she became like our family.

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Speaker 2: She was retired at that point, she'd been retired for

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Speaker 2: about a year, but she was still taking care of

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Speaker 2: Rose for us a couple of days a week and

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Speaker 2: you know, whoever away, she would look after the girls.

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Speaker 1: And so how long had you known Jen and Leon?

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Speaker 2: For?

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Speaker 1: Ten years? Ten years? And I know in the document

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Speaker 1: you wrote about that, I've got to say it was

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Speaker 1: very very powerful the way you put the words down

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Speaker 1: on how this since impacted on you. But Leon was

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Speaker 1: looked on almost like a de facto grandfather. Yeah, I

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Speaker 1: think if I remember rightly, he would go to the

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Speaker 1: school for Grandparents' Day yea, and things like that.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, do all those things, go to dancing concerts you

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Speaker 2: know with Jen and Yeah, So they were they were

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Speaker 2: essentially like grandparents, you know. Then they say, when you

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Speaker 2: move town's friends of the family, you make for yourself,

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Speaker 2: and that's sort of what we felt like we had

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Speaker 2: with them, and to you know, some of their family

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Speaker 2: members as well. So yeah, it was.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, so there's a shock and just trying to articulate

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Speaker 1: what you're going through there. You've got the horror of

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Speaker 1: what your your daughters have said to you, and then

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Speaker 1: the betrayal of trust with Leon and Jen. And this

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Speaker 1: is a Sunday morning, and you can't just sit with this.

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Speaker 1: This is not the situation where you can just sit

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Speaker 1: and ponder. So you'll invite the Jen over to your

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Speaker 1: over to your house on the pretense of picking out

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Speaker 1: the dress or yeah.

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Speaker 2: And look, I did it that way. And I actually

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Speaker 2: got accused of being deceiving in court because I said

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Speaker 2: that I had done it in that way.

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Speaker 1: Don't worry, we'll be talking about later on.

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Speaker 2: But I did it that way because he Jen had

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Speaker 2: always been around to our house. You visited, and he

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Speaker 2: didn't really come around in my mind, he was Jen's husband.

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Speaker 2: Jen looked after our kids.

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Speaker 1: That was a family case.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, and yeah, so I he had been coming

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Speaker 2: around more frequently, which it was fine, but it was

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Speaker 2: just different. And I didn't want him to be there,

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Speaker 2: obviously for obvious reasons. So I invited Jen around and

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Speaker 2: their daughter. They came around and I spoke to her

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Speaker 2: and I told her exactly what Rose had said, and

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Speaker 2: I showed her what Pipa had written. And I thought

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Speaker 2: she would be angry. I thought she'd have a goal

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Speaker 2: at me. I think if someone said that to me

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Speaker 2: about someone I loved, my first reaction would be to defend.

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Speaker 2: She didn't. Yeah, her reaction was, oh my god, Oh

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Speaker 2: my godly and what have you done? What have you

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Speaker 2: done to our girls?

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Speaker 1: So the conversation that it must have been difficult when

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Speaker 1: confronting how long did it go on for?

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Speaker 2: Look that was she was probably there for about ten minutes,

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Speaker 2: and then she actually went and got him. So she

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Speaker 2: left and went and picked him up and brought him

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Speaker 2: back to the house.

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Speaker 1: You're there on your own, but Brent's got the girls.

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Speaker 2: Girls.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, what happened when he came back?

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Speaker 2: So he came back in and I could hear him

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Speaker 2: on the way in, you know, saying, oh, this is ridiculous,

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Speaker 2: this is ridiculous, And you know, he walked into the

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Speaker 2: back room of our house. And I was just sitting

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Speaker 2: there and I you know, I think he saw the

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Speaker 2: look on my face, and yeah, he sort of backpedaled

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Speaker 2: a little bit because he could say that you know,

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Speaker 2: we were taking it. You know that it was ridiculous.

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Speaker 2: And he was saying, oh, you know, you can't believe this,

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Speaker 2: you can't believe it, and you know, just he was unreasonable.

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Speaker 2: His shirt was inside out. I still just remember that

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Speaker 2: his shirt was inside out, because the most ridiculous thing

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Speaker 2: to remember. But you know, I was just the thing.

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Speaker 2: I was like, oh my god, your shirt's inside out.

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Speaker 2: You didn't e put you shirt on properly?

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Speaker 1: Well, his little dirty secrets finally, yeah, the sounds of it.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, And anyway, he sort of sat down and I

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Speaker 2: just said, and he's trying to can vince me that

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Speaker 2: this is a lie. You know, this isn't true, Michelley,

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Speaker 2: this can't be true. And I just said to him,

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Speaker 2: tell me why, And I said no, Actually, I said,

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Speaker 2: can you tell me how how Rose could know that

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Speaker 2: that happens without it happening. I need you to tell

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Speaker 2: me that, because if you can tell me that, then

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Speaker 2: this can all go away. Anyway. Then he was like

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Speaker 2: faint and he needed a drink, and I just said,

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Speaker 2: I just think you need to go anyway. So he

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Speaker 2: left and his wife left with him, and then the

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Speaker 2: daughter stayed, and then the wife came back in and

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Speaker 2: got the daughter and left, and then she came back again.

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Speaker 2: The wife came back again, Jen came back again, and

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Speaker 2: she just said to me, She goes, what are we

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Speaker 2: going to do? I don't know what to do. I

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Speaker 2: don't know what to do. And I just said, well,

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Speaker 2: you know what I have to do. And so and

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Speaker 2: I had, actually, and I don't know why I did

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Speaker 2: what I did, but I had packed up everything that

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Speaker 2: she gave me. So I had a casserole dish because

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Speaker 2: she'd made some dinner for us a couple of weeks early.

236
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Speaker 2: And you know, she gave me a necklace for my birthday.

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Speaker 2: I put all these things and just gave them to

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Speaker 2: her because I just didn't Yeah, I.

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Speaker 1: Think an understandable move, like I want it's probably subconsciously

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Speaker 1: I want you out of my life. I don't want

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Speaker 1: to have anything to do with you. So what are

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Speaker 1: we going to do? What are we going to do?

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Speaker 1: I suppose the question the obvious answer, as you said, well,

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Speaker 1: what do you think we're going to do. Yeah, of course,

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Speaker 1: it's a matter that it's got to be reported. Okay,

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Speaker 1: so you've dealt with that. I'm just trying to get

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Speaker 1: a sense of it because reading what you wrote down

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Speaker 1: about it, and it was a long Yeah, it was

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Speaker 1: a condensed version of a book you describing this, but

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Speaker 1: I've got to say, it's so confronting. But the way

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Speaker 1: you articulated and what I hope people that listen today

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Speaker 1: this is the impact that it's not. I think when

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Speaker 1: we see on the news, we see o pedophiles being charged,

254
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Speaker 1: ten kids have been assaulted, that type of thing. Happy

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Speaker 1: to see people being caught, but we don't understand the

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Speaker 1: ramifications and the flow on the fact that there's a

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00:14:05,520 --> 00:14:07,920
Speaker 1: ripple effect that goes with this type of crime, isn't there?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, look there is. And you know it was

259
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Speaker 2: that was sort of early in the day. I think

260
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Speaker 2: we'd probably got up to about eleven thirty by this point,

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Speaker 2: and Brent bought the girls back home. I'd made a

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Speaker 2: phone call to the girls' school principal, and I think

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Speaker 2: that subconsciously that was my way of not having to

264
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Speaker 2: make the report. Okay, yep, I didn't want to have

265
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Speaker 2: to make the report.

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Speaker 1: Man, the story report it. So, yeah, brought to the

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Speaker 1: attention of the school, yep.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. And so she came around that afternoon, and I

269
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Speaker 2: actually can't really remember what happened while she was there.

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Speaker 2: You know, I was asked questions about that again during

271
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Speaker 2: the trial, and I can't remember. I can tell you

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Speaker 2: everything that happened in the morning, but that I think

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Speaker 2: I sort of handed over the rain for about forty

274
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Speaker 2: minutes because I just needed to not think. And then

275
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Speaker 2: we called the police, and we also called good a

276
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Speaker 2: couple of good friends who came in and got Maggie.

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Speaker 1: How old was Maggie at the time. She was only ten, Okay,

278
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Speaker 1: so we're looking at five eight and ten.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah. And she went with friends of ours. They

280
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Speaker 2: had no idea what they were doing there. They knew

281
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Speaker 2: that something had happened, and they just came and got

282
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Speaker 2: her and took her to their house and went and

283
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Speaker 2: did fun things, and we waited for the police to come.

284
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Speaker 2: And you know, in my naivity or ignorance or whatever

285
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Speaker 2: it is, I think everyone's the same, though in this situation,

286
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Speaker 2: I didn't realize it. You called the police around, and

287
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Speaker 2: that's just the first responders that they weren't going to

288
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Speaker 2: talk to the girls that you know, we started this journey.

289
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Speaker 1: That was well, I think it's interesting to explain this

290
00:15:54,680 --> 00:15:58,240
Speaker 1: to people, and just so people understand what the processes

291
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Speaker 1: are because by understanding that, the I won't say it

292
00:16:01,000 --> 00:16:03,640
Speaker 1: makes it easier, but you've got an appreciation of the

293
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Speaker 1: step by step. So you call the police, you call

294
00:16:06,160 --> 00:16:09,400
Speaker 1: the local police, they'll send the a viable car crew round.

295
00:16:09,440 --> 00:16:11,560
Speaker 1: So whoever's on the car crew will come around and

296
00:16:12,640 --> 00:16:14,400
Speaker 1: knock on the door. Yet, how can I help you?

297
00:16:14,440 --> 00:16:17,280
Speaker 1: And you explain that situation, So take us through what

298
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Speaker 1: happened then.

299
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Speaker 2: Yeah, So they came around and I assumed that they

300
00:16:21,240 --> 00:16:23,680
Speaker 2: would want to speak to the girls and they said, oh, no,

301
00:16:24,040 --> 00:16:26,480
Speaker 2: like we're not allowed to talk to the girls. There's

302
00:16:26,960 --> 00:16:29,880
Speaker 2: a team that do that. And I was like okay,

303
00:16:29,880 --> 00:16:31,480
Speaker 2: and I said, well, what do you need from us?

304
00:16:31,520 --> 00:16:33,120
Speaker 2: And you know, they said, oh, we need to talk

305
00:16:33,160 --> 00:16:35,360
Speaker 2: to you and your husband. So and they just took

306
00:16:35,400 --> 00:16:38,320
Speaker 2: the initial report. And you know, while we were doing that,

307
00:16:39,960 --> 00:16:44,920
Speaker 2: Brent was understandably just upset. We both were. I was pacing,

308
00:16:45,120 --> 00:16:46,840
Speaker 2: like I think I looked like a mad woman. I

309
00:16:46,880 --> 00:16:50,640
Speaker 2: was pacing up and down the laundroom and just saying

310
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Speaker 2: to these poor poor guys, you know, it's not like

311
00:16:54,360 --> 00:16:56,200
Speaker 2: we sit here watching porn. It's not like we do.

312
00:16:56,400 --> 00:16:58,600
Speaker 2: Like I was just saying the most random things. Whatever's

313
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Speaker 2: coming to.

314
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Speaker 1: My head, the things that you running through your mind.

315
00:17:01,480 --> 00:17:04,400
Speaker 1: How would my girls at that age talk about these

316
00:17:04,440 --> 00:17:06,080
Speaker 1: type of things? Where did they get that?

317
00:17:06,359 --> 00:17:09,480
Speaker 2: I wanted? I wanted there to be a reason other

318
00:17:09,520 --> 00:17:10,320
Speaker 2: than what it was.

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Speaker 1: From from the mother's point of view, I can fully

320
00:17:14,160 --> 00:17:16,679
Speaker 1: understand that that you'd be looking for. No, this is

321
00:17:16,760 --> 00:17:17,800
Speaker 1: just a horrible mistake.

322
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Speaker 2: And yeah, yeah, anyway, and this this big burly police

323
00:17:22,560 --> 00:17:25,920
Speaker 2: officer was sitting there, and you know, I'm ranting walking

324
00:17:26,000 --> 00:17:28,320
Speaker 2: back and forward, and I just looked at him and

325
00:17:28,359 --> 00:17:34,080
Speaker 2: I stopped because he just had a tear. And he said, no,

326
00:17:35,080 --> 00:17:41,000
Speaker 2: it happened, because it happened. It just happened. And yeah, anyway,

327
00:17:41,000 --> 00:17:42,399
Speaker 2: they were great, and Brent sort of got up and

328
00:17:42,440 --> 00:17:45,200
Speaker 2: walked out. We didn't even recognize one of the police

329
00:17:45,240 --> 00:17:47,480
Speaker 2: officers was someone he'd played footy with, Like, we just

330
00:17:47,480 --> 00:17:49,560
Speaker 2: didn't even recognizing. That's a state that we were in

331
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Speaker 2: at the time. Yeah, so they they came in, they said, look,

332
00:17:54,320 --> 00:17:56,359
Speaker 2: you know someone will be in touch with you from

333
00:17:56,440 --> 00:17:58,439
Speaker 2: the child abuse squad. Didn't know that was one of

334
00:17:58,480 --> 00:18:00,800
Speaker 2: those you know, someone to be in touch with you

335
00:18:02,560 --> 00:18:06,159
Speaker 2: and yeah, and we'll get back, And so I just

336
00:18:06,240 --> 00:18:08,600
Speaker 2: assumed that the next morning we'd have a phone call

337
00:18:08,680 --> 00:18:11,840
Speaker 2: or that even that afternoon, and we sort of got

338
00:18:12,480 --> 00:18:14,840
Speaker 2: We took the girls to school the next day. Okay,

339
00:18:15,040 --> 00:18:16,200
Speaker 2: yeah we did.

340
00:18:16,760 --> 00:18:20,320
Speaker 1: And like taking the girls to school. But I would

341
00:18:20,359 --> 00:18:23,199
Speaker 1: imagine that the balancing neck that you've got as a

342
00:18:23,240 --> 00:18:26,600
Speaker 1: parent is this has happened, that it's got to be

343
00:18:26,600 --> 00:18:28,560
Speaker 1: followed up, and we've got to address this, but you've

344
00:18:28,560 --> 00:18:30,840
Speaker 1: also got kids. Kids have got to get on with

345
00:18:30,880 --> 00:18:35,240
Speaker 1: her life. That's that's a difficult, difficult part of juggling.

346
00:18:35,600 --> 00:18:39,040
Speaker 2: I beat myself up about that for a little taking them, yeah,

347
00:18:39,040 --> 00:18:41,800
Speaker 2: for taking them to school, because there was part of

348
00:18:41,800 --> 00:18:44,760
Speaker 2: me that was I just did it because that's what

349
00:18:44,760 --> 00:18:47,520
Speaker 2: you did. You know, at school, We're going to school.

350
00:18:48,680 --> 00:18:50,879
Speaker 2: And then the school counselor is actually something that I

351
00:18:50,920 --> 00:18:53,280
Speaker 2: had gone to school with and she met me on

352
00:18:53,320 --> 00:18:55,479
Speaker 2: the playground and took me into a room and I

353
00:18:55,520 --> 00:18:58,160
Speaker 2: lost it, and you know, it's like I can't believe

354
00:18:58,200 --> 00:19:00,200
Speaker 2: I bought them here, you know, And just like they're

355
00:19:00,240 --> 00:19:02,480
Speaker 2: safe here. You know, they're safe here, They've got their

356
00:19:02,520 --> 00:19:06,080
Speaker 2: friends here. You know, it's okay. And it wasn't until

357
00:19:06,080 --> 00:19:08,119
Speaker 2: a few months later that I sort of was processing

358
00:19:08,160 --> 00:19:12,040
Speaker 2: it again and a counselor said to me, she said, look,

359
00:19:13,240 --> 00:19:15,160
Speaker 2: you know, I can see that this is really troubling you,

360
00:19:15,160 --> 00:19:17,440
Speaker 2: she said, but you need to understand and give yourself

361
00:19:17,440 --> 00:19:21,040
Speaker 2: a bit of a break. So that day, your kid's

362
00:19:21,440 --> 00:19:24,400
Speaker 2: life got better. It was your life that changed.

363
00:19:24,560 --> 00:19:26,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, that was an interesting Yeah, I wrote that down.

364
00:19:26,720 --> 00:19:29,080
Speaker 1: That was an interesting, interesting twist.

365
00:19:28,920 --> 00:19:30,760
Speaker 2: And it kind of gave me a bit of grace.

366
00:19:30,840 --> 00:19:33,720
Speaker 2: So I sort of could sit with that and be

367
00:19:33,800 --> 00:19:36,320
Speaker 2: okay with it, even though I still can't believe I

368
00:19:36,320 --> 00:19:36,560
Speaker 2: did it.

369
00:19:36,760 --> 00:19:40,879
Speaker 1: Well. I think there's a balancing between if you didn't

370
00:19:40,920 --> 00:19:43,600
Speaker 1: let the kids go to school, they've reported something that

371
00:19:43,720 --> 00:19:46,399
Speaker 1: I'm sure he told them not to tell anyone and

372
00:19:46,480 --> 00:19:50,240
Speaker 1: all that if they've reported that and then you stop

373
00:19:50,280 --> 00:19:52,680
Speaker 1: them going to school, they might think, oh, that's right,

374
00:19:52,720 --> 00:19:56,160
Speaker 1: Look I've done wrong. It's so confusing for kids understanding

375
00:19:56,200 --> 00:20:01,119
Speaker 1: what's going on with this before we move on, So

376
00:20:01,440 --> 00:20:03,960
Speaker 1: we'll just pause it at that point where the girls

377
00:20:03,960 --> 00:20:07,800
Speaker 1: have disclosed this to you, you've spoken to the perpetrator,

378
00:20:07,840 --> 00:20:10,760
Speaker 1: you've spoken to the wife of the perpetrator, and you've

379
00:20:10,880 --> 00:20:15,040
Speaker 1: informed the police. Describe the girls, because you talk about

380
00:20:15,040 --> 00:20:18,000
Speaker 1: that your life prior and then then post describe the

381
00:20:18,000 --> 00:20:19,959
Speaker 1: girls to me and the family life that you were

382
00:20:19,960 --> 00:20:21,440
Speaker 1: living up until that point.

383
00:20:23,240 --> 00:20:26,000
Speaker 2: Look, we had a really what seemed to be an

384
00:20:26,040 --> 00:20:28,920
Speaker 2: ideally life, really I call it. We were living the

385
00:20:29,000 --> 00:20:33,200
Speaker 2: Australian dream. You know. We were both working, We had

386
00:20:33,680 --> 00:20:38,120
Speaker 2: a home that was lovely, We had a great group

387
00:20:38,160 --> 00:20:41,399
Speaker 2: of friends. We participated in sport. The girls played sport.

388
00:20:41,560 --> 00:20:44,560
Speaker 2: They you know, they did their dancing and they did

389
00:20:44,560 --> 00:20:49,000
Speaker 2: their basketball. Yeah, we wore to skied, you know, we

390
00:20:49,040 --> 00:20:53,240
Speaker 2: did all the you know, really fun you know, typical things.

391
00:20:54,480 --> 00:20:57,080
Speaker 2: I'm glad the girls were the age they were when

392
00:20:57,240 --> 00:21:00,159
Speaker 2: this came out. It's ridiculous as it sounds, because in

393
00:21:00,240 --> 00:21:05,320
Speaker 2: terms of our family and probably Brennan and my relationship too,

394
00:21:05,720 --> 00:21:07,119
Speaker 2: we're in that good space.

395
00:21:07,240 --> 00:21:07,399
Speaker 1: You know.

396
00:21:07,480 --> 00:21:10,240
Speaker 2: The kids could do things a little bit independently. We

397
00:21:10,240 --> 00:21:12,800
Speaker 2: could have a conversation, you know, all those things that

398
00:21:12,880 --> 00:21:15,680
Speaker 2: you can't do when your kids are really little. But yeah,

399
00:21:15,680 --> 00:21:20,040
Speaker 2: we just had a typical, a really a good life.

400
00:21:20,640 --> 00:21:24,680
Speaker 2: We were happy and We had Mags who was quiet

401
00:21:24,760 --> 00:21:29,639
Speaker 2: and shy but really creative and caring, and you know,

402
00:21:29,680 --> 00:21:36,040
Speaker 2: the best big sister, Pip was spirited. You know, they

403
00:21:36,080 --> 00:21:38,080
Speaker 2: were the words that we used about her. And she

404
00:21:38,200 --> 00:21:40,560
Speaker 2: was that kid that would dress herself and I would

405
00:21:40,560 --> 00:21:42,920
Speaker 2: have parents say, I can't believe you let her leave

406
00:21:42,960 --> 00:21:45,160
Speaker 2: the house like that, but she thought she looked amazing

407
00:21:45,160 --> 00:21:51,479
Speaker 2: and she wore it well. And Rose was just everybody's friend,

408
00:21:52,880 --> 00:21:56,080
Speaker 2: you know, she she was Yeah, that was just the

409
00:21:56,119 --> 00:21:59,280
Speaker 2: way she was. She could talk to adults, she could

410
00:21:59,320 --> 00:22:02,960
Speaker 2: talk to children, and she you know, she was just great.

411
00:22:03,400 --> 00:22:06,040
Speaker 1: Well, you've described the type of life that most of

412
00:22:06,080 --> 00:22:09,359
Speaker 1: us aspired to it and you're going along happily and

413
00:22:10,080 --> 00:22:14,760
Speaker 1: then this this kicks in. So I think people often

414
00:22:15,240 --> 00:22:18,000
Speaker 1: when the police are called them the way that you articulated,

415
00:22:18,080 --> 00:22:20,880
Speaker 1: you thought, Okay, the police are here, Now everything's going

416
00:22:20,880 --> 00:22:22,840
Speaker 1: to happen straight away, and that saw that out and

417
00:22:22,880 --> 00:22:25,520
Speaker 1: all that. It's so far from the case. It's not funny,

418
00:22:25,520 --> 00:22:25,800
Speaker 1: isn't it.

419
00:22:26,840 --> 00:22:30,359
Speaker 2: Yeah, And almost like having the ideally life was almost

420
00:22:30,400 --> 00:22:33,640
Speaker 2: a curse because as far as the police were concerned

421
00:22:33,640 --> 00:22:37,720
Speaker 2: and as far as you know, social services and all

422
00:22:37,760 --> 00:22:40,560
Speaker 2: of those things who were involved our kids were safe.

423
00:22:41,200 --> 00:22:47,480
Speaker 1: So the child at risks all people out and you.

424
00:22:47,440 --> 00:22:51,560
Speaker 2: Know, which is great, but we didn't realize that that

425
00:22:51,640 --> 00:22:54,960
Speaker 2: meant they Yeah, they go to the bottom of the pile,

426
00:22:55,080 --> 00:23:00,120
Speaker 2: so to speak, you know, And and it's it's actually

427
00:23:00,200 --> 00:23:03,919
Speaker 2: quite confronting to understand that you do get needed, you

428
00:23:04,040 --> 00:23:05,560
Speaker 2: do have to go to the bottom of the pub

429
00:23:05,600 --> 00:23:06,840
Speaker 2: because there is so much need.

430
00:23:07,359 --> 00:23:11,800
Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, it's just synonymous with how many kids are

431
00:23:11,840 --> 00:23:12,680
Speaker 1: sexually abused.

432
00:23:12,840 --> 00:23:16,440
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, and people don't know it. They just don't

433
00:23:16,440 --> 00:23:16,800
Speaker 2: know it.

434
00:23:17,280 --> 00:23:20,640
Speaker 1: People don't know it. I'm seeing it more and more,

435
00:23:20,680 --> 00:23:22,720
Speaker 1: and that when we're having the conversation the other day,

436
00:23:22,720 --> 00:23:25,639
Speaker 1: I was speaking to you about the podcast series I

437
00:23:25,640 --> 00:23:27,760
Speaker 1: did in prison and the amount of the people I

438
00:23:27,800 --> 00:23:30,920
Speaker 1: met in prison that were victims of childhood sexual abuse

439
00:23:31,119 --> 00:23:34,920
Speaker 1: and it just perpetuates and they carry that for the

440
00:23:35,000 --> 00:23:38,280
Speaker 1: rest of their life and often make poor life choices

441
00:23:38,320 --> 00:23:43,280
Speaker 1: based on what's happened with your your story. I think

442
00:23:43,280 --> 00:23:46,479
Speaker 1: it was eight days before the police actually came and

443
00:23:46,560 --> 00:23:48,080
Speaker 1: interviewed the children.

444
00:23:48,200 --> 00:23:50,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, and it wasn't you know. That was another thing

445
00:23:50,440 --> 00:23:53,040
Speaker 2: about living regionally too. I think was a bit of

446
00:23:53,040 --> 00:23:56,680
Speaker 2: an issue there because we knew the lead detective from

447
00:23:56,760 --> 00:24:00,520
Speaker 2: child abuse squad, so we couldn't well, it was better

448
00:24:00,560 --> 00:24:02,800
Speaker 2: not to be interviewed by him, so there was no

449
00:24:02,840 --> 00:24:05,320
Speaker 2: conflict of interest. So we had to wait for somebody

450
00:24:05,320 --> 00:24:07,920
Speaker 2: else to come back from holidays as well, so there

451
00:24:07,960 --> 00:24:10,600
Speaker 2: was a bit of a wait time there. So for

452
00:24:10,800 --> 00:24:15,000
Speaker 2: us and for the girls, particularly Pippa, who was spirited

453
00:24:15,240 --> 00:24:19,520
Speaker 2: and had this really strong sense of justice, it was like, well,

454
00:24:19,560 --> 00:24:22,399
Speaker 2: I told you this thing. I no longer get to

455
00:24:22,440 --> 00:24:26,840
Speaker 2: see Jen, and you know everything that he said was true.

456
00:24:27,040 --> 00:24:29,400
Speaker 2: People don't believe you. People don't want to talk about it,

457
00:24:30,760 --> 00:24:32,880
Speaker 2: and I'm not going to I'm not going to talk

458
00:24:32,920 --> 00:24:34,920
Speaker 2: to the police. They've waited too long.

459
00:24:35,080 --> 00:24:38,560
Speaker 1: That would break your heart as a parent hearing that

460
00:24:39,200 --> 00:24:44,440
Speaker 1: and explaining that peop is concerned about not seeing Jen.

461
00:24:44,520 --> 00:24:47,040
Speaker 1: That was because Jen was such a prominent part in

462
00:24:47,080 --> 00:24:51,600
Speaker 1: their life and mister creepy or Leon has put it

463
00:24:51,640 --> 00:24:54,920
Speaker 1: in their heads that if you talk about this, all

464
00:24:54,960 --> 00:24:57,800
Speaker 1: bad things are going to happen. And she's saying that

465
00:24:57,800 --> 00:25:03,360
Speaker 1: there's exactly and true and did you notice see their

466
00:25:03,400 --> 00:25:06,720
Speaker 1: behavior in that? And I'm talking like I'm sure the

467
00:25:06,760 --> 00:25:09,400
Speaker 1: further impacts and the way the matter went through court

468
00:25:10,880 --> 00:25:13,440
Speaker 1: from telling you was there a change in the kids

469
00:25:13,480 --> 00:25:15,479
Speaker 1: now that they bought it out in that week waiting

470
00:25:15,480 --> 00:25:17,600
Speaker 1: for the police.

471
00:25:17,880 --> 00:25:22,280
Speaker 2: For Rose, Rose had this, it was like she'd been

472
00:25:23,000 --> 00:25:26,480
Speaker 2: given permission to say whatever, you know, So the damn

473
00:25:26,520 --> 00:25:30,040
Speaker 2: wall had broken, and she didn't have an understanding of

474
00:25:30,680 --> 00:25:34,480
Speaker 2: you know, every time she was telling me something, the

475
00:25:34,640 --> 00:25:36,760
Speaker 2: impact that it was having, I was. I was really

476
00:25:36,800 --> 00:25:39,639
Speaker 2: grateful and glad that she could she could talk about it,

477
00:25:39,680 --> 00:25:41,000
Speaker 2: but it was really hard to listen to.

478
00:25:41,200 --> 00:25:44,000
Speaker 1: So she now that she's comfortable telling you what's happened,

479
00:25:44,320 --> 00:25:47,520
Speaker 1: and she's revealing you details that no parent would want

480
00:25:47,560 --> 00:25:48,840
Speaker 1: to hear, I would imagine.

481
00:25:48,600 --> 00:25:55,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's it for Pippa. She she was sort of

482
00:25:55,520 --> 00:25:58,439
Speaker 2: old enough to start feeling bit of shame and a

483
00:25:58,440 --> 00:26:02,360
Speaker 2: bit of embarrassment, think you could say, and then that

484
00:26:02,440 --> 00:26:06,920
Speaker 2: real angry No one cares anyway, Why did we tell

485
00:26:06,960 --> 00:26:11,600
Speaker 2: because everything's changed, you know, everything's changed. We don't get

486
00:26:11,640 --> 00:26:15,480
Speaker 2: to see Jen anymore. But no one even cares because

487
00:26:15,560 --> 00:26:18,879
Speaker 2: no one's you know. So so she and she really

488
00:26:19,280 --> 00:26:24,080
Speaker 2: withdrew and was a little bit angry that Rose had

489
00:26:24,119 --> 00:26:29,600
Speaker 2: told us. Maggie she didn't really understand what was going

490
00:26:29,600 --> 00:26:31,760
Speaker 2: on for the girls because obviously we didn't tell her

491
00:26:31,840 --> 00:26:37,919
Speaker 2: what they told us, but she was angry with them

492
00:26:38,400 --> 00:26:42,080
Speaker 2: because her life changed too. So she didn't get to

493
00:26:42,119 --> 00:26:47,000
Speaker 2: see Jen either, and she didn't know her, you know,

494
00:26:47,119 --> 00:26:49,720
Speaker 2: she she didn't know anyone but her like for her,

495
00:26:50,000 --> 00:26:53,160
Speaker 2: Jen was as close as any family member.

496
00:26:53,520 --> 00:26:57,400
Speaker 1: Another difficult part I would imagine is that because you're

497
00:26:57,440 --> 00:27:01,480
Speaker 1: trying to protect the children from contamination their evidence. Yeah,

498
00:27:01,760 --> 00:27:03,879
Speaker 1: and you're aware of that from what you would have

499
00:27:04,000 --> 00:27:08,560
Speaker 1: given knowledge as a school teacher. But I'm just trying

500
00:27:08,560 --> 00:27:10,920
Speaker 1: to imagine the family dynamics. You'd want to sit down

501
00:27:10,960 --> 00:27:13,399
Speaker 1: with the whole family and talk it through and let

502
00:27:13,480 --> 00:27:15,879
Speaker 1: them support each other and all that I can't that

503
00:27:16,000 --> 00:27:19,159
Speaker 1: wasn't available to So it just adds another layer to it,

504
00:27:19,200 --> 00:27:19,680
Speaker 1: doesn't it.

505
00:27:19,760 --> 00:27:21,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, And look, that's one of the you know, we

506
00:27:21,960 --> 00:27:25,080
Speaker 2: found out since that that's one of the things that

507
00:27:25,080 --> 00:27:28,480
Speaker 2: they use in court to try and separate cases, which

508
00:27:28,520 --> 00:27:31,720
Speaker 2: is tricky, and Brent was probably a little bit more

509
00:27:31,720 --> 00:27:36,479
Speaker 2: savvy about that than I was. He just said, you know,

510
00:27:36,600 --> 00:27:41,560
Speaker 2: they can't talk to one another about this, which, yeah, like,

511
00:27:41,600 --> 00:27:44,000
Speaker 2: in hindsight, that was a really great thing in terms

512
00:27:44,000 --> 00:27:49,000
Speaker 2: of the court, but as you say, for them, and

513
00:27:49,080 --> 00:27:52,280
Speaker 2: it probably was difficult for them in their own relationship

514
00:27:52,280 --> 00:27:52,919
Speaker 2: with one another.

515
00:27:54,280 --> 00:27:57,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, And I would imagine as a child being told

516
00:27:57,680 --> 00:28:00,320
Speaker 1: you can't talk about this is almost inferring the you've

517
00:28:00,320 --> 00:28:04,320
Speaker 1: done something wrong in their minds. I would imagine that

518
00:28:04,359 --> 00:28:07,280
Speaker 1: type of narrative if it's been fed to them that

519
00:28:07,600 --> 00:28:09,400
Speaker 1: they would have felt, well, why can't I talk I've

520
00:28:09,400 --> 00:28:12,480
Speaker 1: done nothing wrong? And then well you can't tell your

521
00:28:12,480 --> 00:28:15,120
Speaker 1: sister or talk to people about it. So it's such

522
00:28:15,119 --> 00:28:20,720
Speaker 1: a complex situation. We've talked about the impact with your daughters,

523
00:28:20,800 --> 00:28:22,240
Speaker 1: what about yourself and your husband?

524
00:28:24,280 --> 00:28:27,080
Speaker 2: This is yeah, Look, and I know it was something

525
00:28:27,200 --> 00:28:31,560
Speaker 2: when I wrote a blog that isn't publicly available anymore,

526
00:28:31,680 --> 00:28:32,480
Speaker 2: just because.

527
00:28:32,160 --> 00:28:36,399
Speaker 1: It's and that's a document I'm referring to. And I

528
00:28:36,520 --> 00:28:39,520
Speaker 1: might add, like I read that, I was angry, sad,

529
00:28:39,520 --> 00:28:42,400
Speaker 1: and full of mixed emotions. It was such a revealing

530
00:28:42,440 --> 00:28:44,120
Speaker 1: account of what you guys have been.

531
00:28:44,040 --> 00:28:46,000
Speaker 2: For well, as I said, I hadn't read it since

532
00:28:46,200 --> 00:28:48,640
Speaker 2: for a little while. I read it on my way

533
00:28:49,360 --> 00:28:52,719
Speaker 2: it made me cry, Oh dear, I haven't done this

534
00:28:52,760 --> 00:28:56,520
Speaker 2: for a while. But look, I think for me it

535
00:28:56,640 --> 00:28:58,920
Speaker 2: was that experience to you know, to write down some

536
00:28:58,960 --> 00:29:01,840
Speaker 2: of these things was experience for me just to get

537
00:29:02,040 --> 00:29:04,760
Speaker 2: my thoughts out on paper, because you know, how do

538
00:29:04,800 --> 00:29:07,080
Speaker 2: you talk to people about this sort of stuff, And

539
00:29:07,320 --> 00:29:11,320
Speaker 2: you know, even just in terms of intimacy with with

540
00:29:11,480 --> 00:29:16,120
Speaker 2: ya husband, I did not want to be touched because

541
00:29:16,160 --> 00:29:22,520
Speaker 2: I'm hearing these things and sex was made dirty, you know,

542
00:29:22,880 --> 00:29:28,120
Speaker 2: and because of what was happening and what we were hearing.

543
00:29:28,520 --> 00:29:30,120
Speaker 2: And when I say we, it was it was me,

544
00:29:30,520 --> 00:29:33,440
Speaker 2: like the girls were telling me. So that was a

545
00:29:33,480 --> 00:29:34,440
Speaker 2: really you.

546
00:29:34,400 --> 00:29:38,840
Speaker 1: Know, say side that I hadn't thought when I'm talking

547
00:29:38,840 --> 00:29:42,160
Speaker 1: about your blog in that it really made me think

548
00:29:42,200 --> 00:29:46,160
Speaker 1: about the why their impact because I hadn't even considered

549
00:29:46,200 --> 00:29:48,720
Speaker 1: that the parents of the child that's been sexually sold

550
00:29:48,720 --> 00:29:52,720
Speaker 1: and then intimacy becomes a problem. But it's so understandable

551
00:29:52,720 --> 00:29:55,320
Speaker 1: why you'd be thinking, not why all this is going on?

552
00:29:55,600 --> 00:29:57,520
Speaker 2: Well, Brent would be mortified and the girls would be

553
00:29:57,520 --> 00:30:01,120
Speaker 2: worse because I'm talking about it, but it is a reality,

554
00:30:01,160 --> 00:30:04,200
Speaker 2: and that's not something that anyone would have told us about.

555
00:30:04,720 --> 00:30:06,480
Speaker 2: And that's why I did write it down at the time,

556
00:30:06,560 --> 00:30:08,880
Speaker 2: because I thought, well, you know, this is something I

557
00:30:08,880 --> 00:30:11,000
Speaker 2: wish someone had said. You know, it's totally normal to

558
00:30:11,080 --> 00:30:15,280
Speaker 2: not ever feel like doing that again, you know, when

559
00:30:15,800 --> 00:30:18,640
Speaker 2: you're hearing these things that you know. But then you

560
00:30:18,720 --> 00:30:21,000
Speaker 2: start going, well, that's not what that was. That was

561
00:30:21,280 --> 00:30:22,840
Speaker 2: somebody exerting power.

562
00:30:23,200 --> 00:30:23,760
Speaker 1: It's abuse.

563
00:30:23,960 --> 00:30:27,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, so you know in the ration of brain

564
00:30:27,560 --> 00:30:28,240
Speaker 2: kicks in, isn't you.

565
00:30:28,560 --> 00:30:31,840
Speaker 1: But then there was another thing. And again I apologize

566
00:30:31,840 --> 00:30:34,360
Speaker 1: if Brent doesn't want to hear this, but I mean

567
00:30:34,440 --> 00:30:37,960
Speaker 1: in support of him on this is that when we'll

568
00:30:38,000 --> 00:30:40,760
Speaker 1: keep it in the chronological order how the investigation evolved.

569
00:30:40,760 --> 00:30:43,800
Speaker 1: But I'm talking generally when people are finding out the

570
00:30:43,880 --> 00:30:47,600
Speaker 1: comments from other Blakes. If someone did that to my kid,

571
00:30:47,640 --> 00:30:49,720
Speaker 1: I'd kill them, or I'd do this, I'd do that,

572
00:30:50,080 --> 00:30:53,200
Speaker 1: And I would imagine if that was kept the response

573
00:30:53,240 --> 00:30:55,240
Speaker 1: that Brent would have got. And that's a very blaky

574
00:30:55,280 --> 00:30:57,960
Speaker 1: thing to say. And I know, yeah, so many Blakes

575
00:30:58,000 --> 00:31:00,840
Speaker 1: would be saying saying the same thing. You'd start be

576
00:31:00,920 --> 00:31:03,720
Speaker 1: looking at yourself going, well, why aren't I feel like

577
00:31:03,880 --> 00:31:06,160
Speaker 1: killing him? Which he probably did feel like killing him,

578
00:31:06,160 --> 00:31:10,280
Speaker 1: But as you articulate that he's a sensible, rational, reasonable person,

579
00:31:10,360 --> 00:31:13,880
Speaker 1: that's not going to achieve anything there. But it's just

580
00:31:13,960 --> 00:31:16,720
Speaker 1: another layer, isn't it. Like Brent would be thinking, well,

581
00:31:17,280 --> 00:31:20,360
Speaker 1: all these people thinking I'm weak because I haven't gone

582
00:31:20,400 --> 00:31:22,320
Speaker 1: around them bash this, but he had.

583
00:31:22,160 --> 00:31:24,680
Speaker 2: Some really interesting thoughts, and again, like it's one of

584
00:31:24,760 --> 00:31:29,120
Speaker 2: those things that in hindsight we've spoken about. But he

585
00:31:29,120 --> 00:31:31,160
Speaker 2: said if he had a dollar for every time someone

586
00:31:31,200 --> 00:31:36,040
Speaker 2: said that, it would be rich. But the other thing

587
00:31:36,200 --> 00:31:40,680
Speaker 2: was that he was reluctant to have kids stay at

588
00:31:40,720 --> 00:31:43,800
Speaker 2: our house because he worried that people would think that

589
00:31:43,840 --> 00:31:48,680
Speaker 2: he was perpetrated and you know, things that he knew

590
00:31:49,680 --> 00:31:54,280
Speaker 2: that that was an irrational thought because you know, obviously

591
00:31:54,280 --> 00:31:56,320
Speaker 2: he was still living in our home and all of

592
00:31:56,360 --> 00:31:59,520
Speaker 2: those things, but it made him think about his role

593
00:32:00,040 --> 00:32:04,880
Speaker 2: as a man a little bit differently. But yeah, I

594
00:32:04,920 --> 00:32:07,680
Speaker 2: loved and I love looking back and seeing that for

595
00:32:07,800 --> 00:32:12,920
Speaker 2: him it was about getting around and going into that

596
00:32:12,960 --> 00:32:18,080
Speaker 2: real protection mode rather than I'm really pleased that he

597
00:32:18,120 --> 00:32:20,760
Speaker 2: didn't do anything, you know, because that would have just

598
00:32:20,800 --> 00:32:22,080
Speaker 2: made everything a whole lot harder.

599
00:32:22,080 --> 00:32:26,000
Speaker 1: Well, actually, and this is a compliment to him and

600
00:32:26,000 --> 00:32:27,960
Speaker 1: what I took away from it, he showed himself to

601
00:32:28,040 --> 00:32:30,760
Speaker 1: be a man and the way he supported you guys

602
00:32:30,800 --> 00:32:34,240
Speaker 1: and protected these daughters. But yeah, a.

603
00:32:34,160 --> 00:32:37,600
Speaker 2: Lot of people commented that it was unusual. So people

604
00:32:37,600 --> 00:32:40,480
Speaker 2: who've worked in their space in child protection or in

605
00:32:40,560 --> 00:32:44,880
Speaker 2: child to be squad. They commented on, you know how

606
00:32:45,560 --> 00:32:48,760
Speaker 2: unique it was to have both of us so involved

607
00:32:49,360 --> 00:32:55,400
Speaker 2: in the process, and so we were lucky, And I

608
00:32:55,400 --> 00:32:56,160
Speaker 2: say we were lucky.

609
00:32:56,360 --> 00:32:59,240
Speaker 1: It's interesting you say that, but I think you're probably

610
00:32:59,280 --> 00:33:00,960
Speaker 1: right on that, because I see a lot of men

611
00:33:01,040 --> 00:33:05,640
Speaker 1: pull away from it's too confronting, and I'm here supporting

612
00:33:05,680 --> 00:33:07,160
Speaker 1: you but not really supporting.

613
00:33:07,400 --> 00:33:09,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, he didn't really have a choice.

614
00:33:11,560 --> 00:33:13,720
Speaker 1: All right, I'm trying to give him credit and.

615
00:33:15,720 --> 00:33:16,280
Speaker 2: It was great.

616
00:33:17,480 --> 00:33:21,720
Speaker 1: No, you're only joking. So, okay, eight days it's taken.

617
00:33:21,800 --> 00:33:24,480
Speaker 1: The police have turned up. Did they get the statements

618
00:33:24,520 --> 00:33:26,800
Speaker 1: at home or did they take them away to the station.

619
00:33:26,960 --> 00:33:31,480
Speaker 1: So all this is just flipping young kids' lives upside down,

620
00:33:31,560 --> 00:33:34,560
Speaker 1: isn't it? So what tell us the process there?

621
00:33:34,760 --> 00:33:37,560
Speaker 2: So the process was we had to find the turtle door,

622
00:33:37,760 --> 00:33:41,479
Speaker 2: which was a door at the police station that was

623
00:33:41,760 --> 00:33:44,440
Speaker 2: the child abuse squad. So we ended up turning it

624
00:33:44,520 --> 00:33:47,080
Speaker 2: into a game, which is probably deliberate from you know,

625
00:33:47,120 --> 00:33:50,320
Speaker 2: the people that worked there. So we found the turtle door.

626
00:33:52,040 --> 00:33:54,840
Speaker 2: Pitt was adamant, she was not going to speak, not

627
00:33:54,880 --> 00:33:56,600
Speaker 2: going to say anything they don't want to hear if

628
00:33:56,600 --> 00:33:57,960
Speaker 2: they wanted to hear they would have been here a

629
00:33:58,000 --> 00:34:00,560
Speaker 2: week ago. You know, all that sort of stuff that

630
00:34:00,640 --> 00:34:02,320
Speaker 2: is stubb an eight and a half year old would say.

631
00:34:03,360 --> 00:34:05,760
Speaker 2: And anyway, so we went in and we met the

632
00:34:05,760 --> 00:34:09,719
Speaker 2: detective and it was detective. It was Glenn, the detective,

633
00:34:10,000 --> 00:34:13,200
Speaker 2: and he he sort of talked to us, and the

634
00:34:13,239 --> 00:34:15,279
Speaker 2: girls were there. They were just sort of playing and

635
00:34:15,440 --> 00:34:17,120
Speaker 2: you know, there was a police hard and Rose had

636
00:34:17,120 --> 00:34:20,160
Speaker 2: that on and you know, all these things and he said,

637
00:34:21,080 --> 00:34:23,080
Speaker 2: you know, he said to us, you know, I just

638
00:34:23,120 --> 00:34:25,080
Speaker 2: want to give you a heads up before we start

639
00:34:25,160 --> 00:34:28,360
Speaker 2: that you know, nine times out of ten this doesn't

640
00:34:28,440 --> 00:34:30,520
Speaker 2: go anywhere. And he said it's not because we don't

641
00:34:30,560 --> 00:34:32,920
Speaker 2: believe the kids, it's because of what we need to

642
00:34:32,960 --> 00:34:38,480
Speaker 2: be able to prove to put them through the process. Anyway,

643
00:34:38,880 --> 00:34:41,440
Speaker 2: that just annoyed me. I was really angry about that.

644
00:34:43,200 --> 00:34:45,359
Speaker 2: And Brent just said, yeah, well, you know, you haven't

645
00:34:45,360 --> 00:34:47,680
Speaker 2: met pepper Mill forp yet. Yeah, and he knew she

646
00:34:47,719 --> 00:34:50,960
Speaker 2: could hear. He said, she is really good at telling

647
00:34:51,000 --> 00:34:54,640
Speaker 2: the truth and making sure that she's protecting other kids,

648
00:34:54,680 --> 00:34:56,640
Speaker 2: so you know, and he sort of just said it

649
00:34:56,719 --> 00:35:00,560
Speaker 2: like that. And anyway, so we sat in this waiting

650
00:35:00,640 --> 00:35:02,520
Speaker 2: room with a really lovely person. So there was the

651
00:35:02,600 --> 00:35:06,520
Speaker 2: joint investigative response to you amount the time people from Yes,

652
00:35:06,880 --> 00:35:11,960
Speaker 2: it's the police, community health and it was docs at

653
00:35:11,960 --> 00:35:16,360
Speaker 2: the time, whenever they've decided to be now community justice. Yeah, anyway,

654
00:35:16,480 --> 00:35:20,719
Speaker 2: so that's who was there. Another issue because we knew

655
00:35:20,719 --> 00:35:22,359
Speaker 2: a lot of people that worked in that space too.

656
00:35:22,719 --> 00:35:26,640
Speaker 1: Again, from what you put down in writing, the country

657
00:35:26,680 --> 00:35:31,400
Speaker 1: town presents its same problems. You're not anonymous and you

658
00:35:31,480 --> 00:35:33,200
Speaker 1: know people, what are you at the police station for?

659
00:35:33,320 --> 00:35:35,279
Speaker 1: Why an't the kids turning up at school? Why aren't

660
00:35:35,280 --> 00:35:39,239
Speaker 1: the kids? Yeah, it's hard to hard to hide. And

661
00:35:39,480 --> 00:35:41,879
Speaker 1: the sad part is there should be no shame to it.

662
00:35:42,320 --> 00:35:46,400
Speaker 1: But it's just such a complex situation, isn't it.

663
00:35:46,480 --> 00:35:49,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's it. Yeah. So you know, and we're sitting

664
00:35:49,440 --> 00:35:52,759
Speaker 2: there and we're putting our kids in this. You know

665
00:35:52,840 --> 00:35:57,560
Speaker 2: that they take them. So your kids go and they

666
00:35:57,600 --> 00:36:01,239
Speaker 2: get interviewed by Australia and.

667
00:36:01,239 --> 00:36:04,160
Speaker 1: I'm not present. That's terrifying.

668
00:36:04,160 --> 00:36:07,240
Speaker 2: And to this day I have never heard what they said.

669
00:36:07,600 --> 00:36:09,560
Speaker 2: I don't know what they said. And Rose and I

670
00:36:09,600 --> 00:36:11,879
Speaker 2: were only discussing it a few days ago and she said,

671
00:36:11,960 --> 00:36:15,919
Speaker 2: I can't, like I know what happened, but I can't

672
00:36:15,960 --> 00:36:19,480
Speaker 2: remember what I said, and she said, I just have

673
00:36:19,560 --> 00:36:20,320
Speaker 2: blocked it out.

674
00:36:21,160 --> 00:36:22,560
Speaker 1: Did they video interview?

675
00:36:22,840 --> 00:36:27,279
Speaker 2: Yeah they did, so they videoed them. Yeah, so then

676
00:36:27,480 --> 00:36:29,680
Speaker 2: that happened. It took a couple of hours to go

677
00:36:29,760 --> 00:36:32,120
Speaker 2: through both the girls, so Pitt went first and then

678
00:36:32,200 --> 00:36:35,560
Speaker 2: Rose went afterwards. And then we sort of got called

679
00:36:35,600 --> 00:36:38,000
Speaker 2: into a room and somebody else was, you know, with

680
00:36:38,200 --> 00:36:42,200
Speaker 2: kids playing doing their thing. We got called into a

681
00:36:42,320 --> 00:36:49,360
Speaker 2: room and that the team were there, and you know,

682
00:36:49,440 --> 00:36:53,200
Speaker 2: Glenn was sort of just sitting there really quietly. You know,

683
00:36:53,280 --> 00:36:56,120
Speaker 2: someone was telling me how well the girls did. Other

684
00:36:56,200 --> 00:36:59,359
Speaker 2: girls did so well, you know, great, I'm so glad

685
00:36:59,440 --> 00:37:02,040
Speaker 2: they could speak about this. It was. It was weird.

686
00:37:02,120 --> 00:37:04,120
Speaker 2: It's like, am I meant to be proud? I don't

687
00:37:04,160 --> 00:37:06,720
Speaker 2: know what to feel here, Like, oh, that's good.

688
00:37:07,239 --> 00:37:09,120
Speaker 1: It's just such a surreal sitution.

689
00:37:08,760 --> 00:37:12,520
Speaker 2: It is. And Brent was very quiet and Glenn was

690
00:37:12,640 --> 00:37:16,239
Speaker 2: very quiet, and then he just sort of like hit

691
00:37:16,280 --> 00:37:20,520
Speaker 2: the desk and he said, I'm charging him, and the

692
00:37:20,600 --> 00:37:23,759
Speaker 2: other two sort of looked quite surprised, and he said, nah,

693
00:37:23,920 --> 00:37:28,000
Speaker 2: I'm charging him. We've got enough anyway, And that was

694
00:37:28,040 --> 00:37:31,600
Speaker 2: sort of, you know, that was that sort of thing,

695
00:37:31,719 --> 00:37:33,799
Speaker 2: and you know, they said, oh, you know, he never

696
00:37:33,840 --> 00:37:36,600
Speaker 2: does that. He never does these. Yeah, so that happened,

697
00:37:36,680 --> 00:37:38,280
Speaker 2: and then it was still I think it was another

698
00:37:38,320 --> 00:37:42,600
Speaker 2: two weeks or so until he was arrested. Probably even longer.

699
00:37:42,640 --> 00:37:44,319
Speaker 2: It was probably three weeks. So we were just in

700
00:37:44,360 --> 00:37:46,840
Speaker 2: this real I called it a holding pattern. It felt

701
00:37:46,880 --> 00:37:49,160
Speaker 2: like there were a number of holding patterns in the

702
00:37:49,200 --> 00:37:54,239
Speaker 2: process because we didn't know the process. We didn't know

703
00:37:54,280 --> 00:37:58,600
Speaker 2: how quickly things would move, and also slowly things would move.

704
00:38:00,080 --> 00:38:01,920
Speaker 2: And I think the thing is that for a lot

705
00:38:01,960 --> 00:38:04,200
Speaker 2: of people, they know what's going on because they do

706
00:38:04,239 --> 00:38:08,160
Speaker 2: it all the time, but forget to share that knowledge.

707
00:38:08,480 --> 00:38:12,400
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that not a criticism but advice with

708
00:38:12,560 --> 00:38:14,960
Speaker 1: policing if you keep the victims informed. And I think

709
00:38:15,000 --> 00:38:17,440
Speaker 1: and I've been guilty of it myself as a police officer.

710
00:38:17,440 --> 00:38:20,080
Speaker 1: So you think this is a norm, you'll understand that

711
00:38:20,080 --> 00:38:23,040
Speaker 1: these things take time. But most people, most decent people

712
00:38:23,040 --> 00:38:26,240
Speaker 1: and people are victims of crime, haven't come in contact

713
00:38:26,239 --> 00:38:29,200
Speaker 1: with police. You know, there's so many decent people out

714
00:38:29,239 --> 00:38:31,719
Speaker 1: there that don't come into contact with police. So this

715
00:38:31,800 --> 00:38:34,400
Speaker 1: is a world that you're you're not familiar with. Yeah,

716
00:38:34,440 --> 00:38:36,799
Speaker 1: what was going through the girls minds? With all this

717
00:38:37,000 --> 00:38:42,200
Speaker 1: like it's I'm looking at the assaults have happened, the

718
00:38:42,320 --> 00:38:46,160
Speaker 1: trauma that's associated with that, telling you and then all

719
00:38:46,160 --> 00:38:49,440
Speaker 1: of a sudden they're dragged into a world that's almost incomprehensible.

720
00:38:49,680 --> 00:38:52,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, and look, I think, you know, it is one

721
00:38:52,680 --> 00:38:54,520
Speaker 2: of those things where you have to ask them, so think.

722
00:38:55,000 --> 00:38:57,640
Speaker 2: But you know, we obviously have had conversations and through

723
00:38:57,680 --> 00:39:02,120
Speaker 2: that advocacy that we've done that they have shared their

724
00:39:02,440 --> 00:39:07,040
Speaker 2: views on it. Rose is interesting because you know, she

725
00:39:07,040 --> 00:39:10,320
Speaker 2: she has said before, you know, I had this man

726
00:39:10,400 --> 00:39:13,120
Speaker 2: doing things to me and saying, you can't tell anybody,

727
00:39:13,160 --> 00:39:15,719
Speaker 2: You can't tell anybody, and then I had people saying

728
00:39:15,760 --> 00:39:18,000
Speaker 2: you have to tell me everything. And it was, you know,

729
00:39:18,080 --> 00:39:22,000
Speaker 2: trying to balance that out. And again strangers and people

730
00:39:22,080 --> 00:39:26,240
Speaker 2: who who she didn't know. Glenn's one of Rose's favorite

731
00:39:26,239 --> 00:39:27,080
Speaker 2: people in the world.

732
00:39:27,239 --> 00:39:32,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, full full credit to them if they're special people,

733
00:39:32,040 --> 00:39:34,040
Speaker 1: the detectives that work there.

734
00:39:34,719 --> 00:39:39,920
Speaker 2: But she still couldn't she still couldn't tell him, you know,

735
00:39:39,960 --> 00:39:43,120
Speaker 2: and again he was a stranger at the beginning. But yeah,

736
00:39:43,120 --> 00:39:45,360
Speaker 2: it was still really difficult, and she didn't have a language,

737
00:39:45,480 --> 00:39:50,560
Speaker 2: she didn't have a language for it. So yeah, she

738
00:39:50,840 --> 00:39:53,640
Speaker 2: kind of looked like she was just getting on with things,

739
00:39:54,080 --> 00:39:57,600
Speaker 2: and she was quite funny. She came up to me.

740
00:39:57,680 --> 00:40:01,520
Speaker 2: We've been at a baptism, were outside the church afterwards,

741
00:40:01,520 --> 00:40:03,800
Speaker 2: just standing around chatting, and she ran over to me

742
00:40:03,840 --> 00:40:07,720
Speaker 2: and she goes, oh, I've just kept like these two girls.

743
00:40:07,760 --> 00:40:10,160
Speaker 2: I've just kept these two girls safe. And I'm like,

744
00:40:10,280 --> 00:40:12,479
Speaker 2: what do you mean how have you kept them safe?

745
00:40:12,480 --> 00:40:14,479
Speaker 2: And she said, well, I told them that you can't

746
00:40:14,520 --> 00:40:16,160
Speaker 2: let people liki vaginas.

747
00:40:17,840 --> 00:40:20,839
Speaker 1: We're laughing, and I think it's probably the only way

748
00:40:20,840 --> 00:40:25,480
Speaker 1: that it's how old she.

749
00:40:26,320 --> 00:40:29,560
Speaker 2: Oh that was. It was just in the weeks after Okay.

750
00:40:29,160 --> 00:40:34,040
Speaker 1: So those yeah, okay, this is how how complex it gets,

751
00:40:34,080 --> 00:40:37,120
Speaker 1: isn't it. It's because it's such an unnatural situation to

752
00:40:37,160 --> 00:40:39,440
Speaker 1: find yourself in. Yeah, and you've got kids with their

753
00:40:39,520 --> 00:40:42,160
Speaker 1: little children in minds, trying to comprehend what's going on.

754
00:40:42,239 --> 00:40:45,520
Speaker 1: And she thinks she's done well. And you can imagine

755
00:40:45,520 --> 00:40:48,520
Speaker 1: the girls going back and telling their parents.

756
00:40:48,520 --> 00:40:50,640
Speaker 2: I know, so it sort of it forced this conversation.

757
00:40:50,800 --> 00:40:52,560
Speaker 2: So you know, you know, I just told them you

758
00:40:52,600 --> 00:40:55,600
Speaker 2: can't let people do these things to you, and very graphically,

759
00:40:55,680 --> 00:40:58,960
Speaker 2: and I was just thinking, oh, dear, anyway, So I

760
00:40:58,960 --> 00:41:02,759
Speaker 2: did have to have a conversation. Fortunately, one of the

761
00:41:02,760 --> 00:41:04,919
Speaker 2: girls mum's was a good friend of mine and she'd

762
00:41:04,920 --> 00:41:10,600
Speaker 2: sort of helped. She'd stepped into that role, you know,

763
00:41:11,080 --> 00:41:14,520
Speaker 2: straight after she got really practical. She was great and said,

764
00:41:14,680 --> 00:41:18,319
Speaker 2: I will look after Rose on these days until she

765
00:41:18,440 --> 00:41:21,919
Speaker 2: goes to school, and you will do this. And yeah,

766
00:41:21,960 --> 00:41:23,839
Speaker 2: she was great in that way, so she already knew.

767
00:41:23,840 --> 00:41:27,200
Speaker 2: But this other poor mom, she had no idea, you know.

768
00:41:27,239 --> 00:41:29,279
Speaker 2: But Rose, you know, went into that oh, well, you know,

769
00:41:29,320 --> 00:41:31,920
Speaker 2: I can protect people. So she had that very like

770
00:41:31,920 --> 00:41:35,319
Speaker 2: it was a very childlike innocence. Still. Yeah, so Rose

771
00:41:35,360 --> 00:41:38,200
Speaker 2: went into that protection mode and I think that's just

772
00:41:38,239 --> 00:41:39,920
Speaker 2: the way she is, and that's the way she'll always be.

773
00:41:40,800 --> 00:41:42,719
Speaker 2: Pipa with Drew.

774
00:41:43,640 --> 00:41:47,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, and that's sad, isn't when the kids internalizing, Yeah

775
00:41:47,680 --> 00:41:51,480
Speaker 1: things could be a moment.

776
00:41:52,440 --> 00:41:57,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, she Withdrew just got these very vibrant blue eyes

777
00:41:57,800 --> 00:41:58,439
Speaker 2: and they're dull.

778
00:42:01,840 --> 00:42:06,520
Speaker 1: Sorry, you don't have to be sorry. I'll just put

779
00:42:06,520 --> 00:42:09,360
Speaker 1: a bit of light on it that I've seen the

780
00:42:09,400 --> 00:42:13,560
Speaker 1: means of you the recent as an older children talking

781
00:42:13,600 --> 00:42:16,440
Speaker 1: about the advocacy that they're doing. You're going to be

782
00:42:16,440 --> 00:42:17,040
Speaker 1: proud of them.

783
00:42:17,120 --> 00:42:23,319
Speaker 2: Oh, absolutely, beautiful, articulate girls. Yeah, and look, I think

784
00:42:23,680 --> 00:42:26,719
Speaker 2: you know that was part of the part of the

785
00:42:26,800 --> 00:42:30,560
Speaker 2: difficulty for all of them. And as I said, Mags,

786
00:42:31,719 --> 00:42:37,120
Speaker 2: Mags was great. She understood why things happened the way

787
00:42:37,120 --> 00:42:40,880
Speaker 2: they did. She hated that our whole life changed because

788
00:42:40,920 --> 00:42:45,960
Speaker 2: of what happened. But she's always been really supportive of

789
00:42:46,000 --> 00:42:52,840
Speaker 2: the girls and always protective too, very honest. But I

790
00:42:52,880 --> 00:42:55,520
Speaker 2: think not being able to tell her friends or not

791
00:42:55,600 --> 00:42:57,920
Speaker 2: be able to talk about why it was, she felt sad.

792
00:42:58,600 --> 00:43:01,799
Speaker 2: So she looked like this siok, you know, she looked

793
00:43:01,840 --> 00:43:07,359
Speaker 2: like this sook and the kids didn't know why, and yeah,

794
00:43:07,400 --> 00:43:08,879
Speaker 2: it was just it was rough.

795
00:43:10,480 --> 00:43:12,319
Speaker 1: It's a live in hell, isn't it. It's a live

796
00:43:12,360 --> 00:43:15,560
Speaker 1: in hell? And so many things that counterintuitive to kids

797
00:43:15,640 --> 00:43:17,359
Speaker 1: have come out and told you. But you can't tell

798
00:43:17,400 --> 00:43:19,640
Speaker 1: your friends like they don't know the intricacies of a

799
00:43:19,760 --> 00:43:23,360
Speaker 1: legal system and why you can't discuss it with other people.

800
00:43:23,520 --> 00:43:25,120
Speaker 1: It's just so difficult for them.

801
00:43:25,160 --> 00:43:28,600
Speaker 2: And we did actually approach a couple of parents, and

802
00:43:28,800 --> 00:43:32,080
Speaker 2: this is no disrespect to them at all, just to say,

803
00:43:33,120 --> 00:43:35,879
Speaker 2: would it be possible for to share a little bit

804
00:43:35,920 --> 00:43:39,319
Speaker 2: of what's happened, not in detail, just so that there

805
00:43:39,360 --> 00:43:43,360
Speaker 2: was a bit more understanding, and they said, oh, we

806
00:43:43,360 --> 00:43:45,480
Speaker 2: would prefer our kids not to know that that sort

807
00:43:45,480 --> 00:43:51,880
Speaker 2: of thing happens, and are seeing me too. Yeah, And

808
00:43:54,120 --> 00:43:59,759
Speaker 2: you know, how fortunate that they didn't have to deal

809
00:43:59,840 --> 00:44:02,560
Speaker 2: with that, because sometimes I think it is just a

810
00:44:02,560 --> 00:44:05,040
Speaker 2: bit of luck, like we never expected this to be

811
00:44:05,120 --> 00:44:06,400
Speaker 2: our story.

812
00:44:06,239 --> 00:44:09,000
Speaker 1: Sitting down and talking now, and this is importance of

813
00:44:09,600 --> 00:44:12,840
Speaker 1: getting this out. People got to understand. This is the

814
00:44:12,920 --> 00:44:16,640
Speaker 1: nature of the crime, the insidious way that people, they pray,

815
00:44:16,840 --> 00:44:22,920
Speaker 1: they manipulate situations to get to vulnerable, vulnerable children. Another

816
00:44:22,960 --> 00:44:26,560
Speaker 1: thing that you were going through and your husband was

817
00:44:26,640 --> 00:44:29,680
Speaker 1: second guessing yourself, like the red flags that you line

818
00:44:29,680 --> 00:44:32,440
Speaker 1: them all up with the benefit of pine sight, How

819
00:44:32,480 --> 00:44:34,759
Speaker 1: did you miss this? How did you miss that? Tell

820
00:44:34,840 --> 00:44:37,200
Speaker 1: us about some of the red flags in isolation. I

821
00:44:37,200 --> 00:44:39,440
Speaker 1: wouldn't think anything of it either, But these are the

822
00:44:39,480 --> 00:44:42,840
Speaker 1: type of things if we achieved something here, have people

823
00:44:43,120 --> 00:44:45,120
Speaker 1: look out for these type of things because they seem

824
00:44:45,160 --> 00:44:48,200
Speaker 1: innocent on the surface, but just little things that when

825
00:44:48,239 --> 00:44:51,960
Speaker 1: you look back and think, okay, was what was happening there?

826
00:44:52,680 --> 00:44:56,240
Speaker 2: So I think one of the first things was repeat

827
00:44:56,400 --> 00:45:00,960
Speaker 2: UTIs so you're new tract in factions are. Remember the

828
00:45:01,000 --> 00:45:06,959
Speaker 2: pediatrician saying to me, is there any chance that anything

829
00:45:07,680 --> 00:45:10,080
Speaker 2: has happened to the girls, And what do you mean?

830
00:45:11,239 --> 00:45:15,120
Speaker 2: And anyway he said it, he said, I said it again,

831
00:45:15,160 --> 00:45:17,600
Speaker 2: and I was just like no, Like I couldn't think

832
00:45:17,600 --> 00:45:19,560
Speaker 2: of anybody. You couldn't think of anybody in our life

833
00:45:19,560 --> 00:45:22,440
Speaker 2: because to me, Jen was looking after our girls. I

834
00:45:22,480 --> 00:45:24,719
Speaker 2: never he wasn't a consideration in my mind. So there

835
00:45:24,760 --> 00:45:31,600
Speaker 2: was that very quiet and Shy was one of one

836
00:45:31,640 --> 00:45:41,120
Speaker 2: of the girls not wanting to stay over there anymore. Incontinents,

837
00:45:41,600 --> 00:45:50,920
Speaker 2: We had incontinents. There was some inappropriate touching that happened

838
00:45:50,960 --> 00:45:53,880
Speaker 2: one time that I recalled and it was like, oh, no,

839
00:45:54,120 --> 00:45:56,719
Speaker 2: you can't do that. Because I was that parent and

840
00:45:56,840 --> 00:46:00,480
Speaker 2: was saying you're not allowed to let people touch you.

841
00:46:00,480 --> 00:46:03,160
Speaker 2: Your vagina is private. I was doing that and I

842
00:46:03,239 --> 00:46:07,440
Speaker 2: was using the word but you know again, that's the

843
00:46:07,480 --> 00:46:13,080
Speaker 2: way these people operate. So yeah, there were lots of

844
00:46:13,160 --> 00:46:18,520
Speaker 2: little flags. Rose and this is sort of a well

845
00:46:18,560 --> 00:46:21,680
Speaker 2: known story. Now, she wanted me to make her a cape.

846
00:46:22,040 --> 00:46:24,560
Speaker 2: So I made her this superhero cape. She was super

847
00:46:24,640 --> 00:46:30,759
Speaker 2: Rose and she wanted her superpower to be invisible. And

848
00:46:30,760 --> 00:46:32,560
Speaker 2: I was like, all right, Well, we'll see how we go,

849
00:46:32,760 --> 00:46:34,520
Speaker 2: you know. So we made this cape and it was,

850
00:46:34,680 --> 00:46:38,800
Speaker 2: you know, fabulous cape. And she brought it home from

851
00:46:38,920 --> 00:46:41,080
Speaker 2: their house one day and she put it on the

852
00:46:41,120 --> 00:46:43,640
Speaker 2: ground and stomped on it. I was like, what are

853
00:46:43,640 --> 00:46:47,120
Speaker 2: you doing and she said, it doesn't work. Yeah, And

854
00:46:47,160 --> 00:46:49,520
Speaker 2: I said, what do you mean it doesn't work? And

855
00:46:49,560 --> 00:46:51,520
Speaker 2: then she said he still found me. I was like,

856
00:46:51,520 --> 00:46:54,880
Speaker 2: who's still founding and she said, oh, Leon and I

857
00:46:54,920 --> 00:46:56,200
Speaker 2: you know, at the time, I was like, oh, they

858
00:46:56,280 --> 00:46:59,200
Speaker 2: must have been playing hard and seek did not even

859
00:46:59,440 --> 00:47:02,480
Speaker 2: give it. And that's the other thing I've had to

860
00:47:03,080 --> 00:47:07,040
Speaker 2: very deliberately, even though I can look at these things

861
00:47:07,160 --> 00:47:12,319
Speaker 2: and put them all together, I very deliberately decided that

862
00:47:14,600 --> 00:47:18,320
Speaker 2: I can't live in that because it would drive me crazy.

863
00:47:18,680 --> 00:47:22,120
Speaker 2: Brent went to pick Rose up one day and he actually,

864
00:47:22,320 --> 00:47:26,000
Speaker 2: in hindsight, when I think I interrupted something, either it

865
00:47:26,120 --> 00:47:28,680
Speaker 2: was just about to happen, or it had just happened

866
00:47:29,200 --> 00:47:33,000
Speaker 2: because he turned up at a time that he didn't usually.

867
00:47:33,040 --> 00:47:36,920
Speaker 2: So he's advice to people who's always don't be too regular,

868
00:47:37,360 --> 00:47:40,680
Speaker 2: you know, don't be too regular, don't be too obvious.

869
00:47:41,120 --> 00:47:43,480
Speaker 1: We want to make it hard for these people. But

870
00:47:43,520 --> 00:47:46,640
Speaker 1: they're very skilled manipulators, and.

871
00:47:46,520 --> 00:47:49,120
Speaker 2: They manipulate our whole family and.

872
00:47:48,840 --> 00:47:54,160
Speaker 1: That's what they that's how they get access to the children.

873
00:47:54,640 --> 00:47:59,280
Speaker 1: The victim describe describe him like describe the top of person.

874
00:47:59,320 --> 00:48:00,759
Speaker 1: That is.

875
00:48:01,280 --> 00:48:05,279
Speaker 2: I didn't particularly like him. I really liked Jen, Like

876
00:48:05,560 --> 00:48:09,560
Speaker 2: the minute I met her. I really liked her. He

877
00:48:09,880 --> 00:48:15,200
Speaker 2: was very confident, a bit smug, a bit of a

878
00:48:15,239 --> 00:48:17,680
Speaker 2: know it all. I think you would say he was

879
00:48:17,719 --> 00:48:21,160
Speaker 2: a know it all. I know that people around the

880
00:48:21,200 --> 00:48:28,680
Speaker 2: town liked Jen, tolerated him. He was nice enough, he

881
00:48:28,840 --> 00:48:32,960
Speaker 2: was great with the kids. The kids loved him. They did,

882
00:48:33,400 --> 00:48:38,759
Speaker 2: you know, they did, because you know, he'd play puzzles

883
00:48:38,760 --> 00:48:42,560
Speaker 2: with them and he'd you know, do this and that. Yeah,

884
00:48:42,600 --> 00:48:44,920
Speaker 2: he was just he was just kind of there. And

885
00:48:44,960 --> 00:48:50,000
Speaker 2: as I said, he was Rose adored him.

886
00:48:50,880 --> 00:48:55,919
Speaker 1: She did I. And it's such a difficult situation because, yeah,

887
00:48:56,040 --> 00:48:59,840
Speaker 1: there's more decent people out there than there are creeps

888
00:48:59,840 --> 00:49:02,399
Speaker 1: like M so everyone can't be tarnish. But I can

889
00:49:02,440 --> 00:49:07,480
Speaker 1: talk from a man's point of view. There's relatives that, Okay,

890
00:49:07,520 --> 00:49:09,839
Speaker 1: you'll be in situations where you're looking after a kid

891
00:49:09,880 --> 00:49:13,000
Speaker 1: on your own, but I wouldn't feel comfortable looking after

892
00:49:13,160 --> 00:49:16,279
Speaker 1: a child on my own. That's not I'm not related to.

893
00:49:16,760 --> 00:49:19,120
Speaker 1: And I know there's a lot of bad things that

894
00:49:19,160 --> 00:49:22,960
Speaker 1: happen within families, but I think from a I have

895
00:49:23,120 --> 00:49:25,640
Speaker 1: a concern when I see someone and it might be

896
00:49:25,840 --> 00:49:29,280
Speaker 1: that family or just a party of gathering and someone's

897
00:49:29,360 --> 00:49:32,600
Speaker 1: always down in the backyard playing, playing, just with the kids.

898
00:49:33,480 --> 00:49:36,520
Speaker 1: I'm not thinking that's adults tend to want to gravitate

899
00:49:36,560 --> 00:49:38,719
Speaker 1: towards adults. Yeah, you can be friendly the kids, you

900
00:49:38,760 --> 00:49:43,200
Speaker 1: can like kids, but anyone's constantly wrestling with kids or ah, look,

901
00:49:43,239 --> 00:49:45,239
Speaker 1: I can look after and make an excuse. I think

902
00:49:45,239 --> 00:49:47,640
Speaker 1: we've got to look out for those those And.

903
00:49:47,600 --> 00:49:50,640
Speaker 2: It's interesting because it was the day before they came

904
00:49:50,680 --> 00:49:55,960
Speaker 2: around to our house and Pippa. We sort of had

905
00:49:56,160 --> 00:49:58,080
Speaker 2: a big room and then we had like a playroom

906
00:49:58,120 --> 00:50:01,640
Speaker 2: off that with massive doors. Yes, quite open, but we

907
00:50:01,680 --> 00:50:05,799
Speaker 2: had a couch around the corner, and Brandon said, I

908
00:50:05,840 --> 00:50:08,960
Speaker 2: went around the corner of the couch, and now that

909
00:50:09,040 --> 00:50:14,760
Speaker 2: I look at I know something was not okay.

910
00:50:13,480 --> 00:50:15,400
Speaker 1: Getting the benefit of the benefit of hindsight.

911
00:50:15,480 --> 00:50:17,239
Speaker 2: So he was getting and that was the thing. I

912
00:50:17,239 --> 00:50:21,719
Speaker 2: think what was happening. He was getting more, He's taking

913
00:50:21,760 --> 00:50:27,280
Speaker 2: more risks. I think and doing things that were hurting,

914
00:50:28,239 --> 00:50:31,960
Speaker 2: physically hurting, and that's why it had to stop.

915
00:50:34,040 --> 00:50:37,719
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think, and not just talking your case, but

916
00:50:38,040 --> 00:50:41,840
Speaker 1: any case, if there's doubts or whatever, hindsight, it's a

917
00:50:41,880 --> 00:50:46,000
Speaker 1: wonderful thing looking back. But quite often, yeah, little things

918
00:50:46,000 --> 00:50:47,680
Speaker 1: like that, if someone spending a lot of time with

919
00:50:48,040 --> 00:50:50,120
Speaker 1: kids that are not their own, I'm a little bit

920
00:50:50,120 --> 00:50:52,560
Speaker 1: wary of it and thinking, what's going on here? This

921
00:50:52,640 --> 00:50:55,279
Speaker 1: is and we've got it because it happens so much.

922
00:50:55,360 --> 00:50:58,799
Speaker 1: That's it sickens me. The figures of how many kids

923
00:50:58,800 --> 00:51:00,000
Speaker 1: are sexually abused.

924
00:51:00,280 --> 00:51:04,200
Speaker 2: Well, we didn't have we didn't realize how much time

925
00:51:04,239 --> 00:51:07,160
Speaker 2: he had with them on his own. Like again, for us,

926
00:51:09,120 --> 00:51:11,759
Speaker 2: our kids were going and being looked after by Jen.

927
00:51:12,400 --> 00:51:15,520
Speaker 2: It wasn't until we found out what was happening. You know.

928
00:51:15,600 --> 00:51:19,880
Speaker 2: She would sometimes be upstairs and he'd be downstairs, and

929
00:51:20,360 --> 00:51:22,200
Speaker 2: you know, and that sort of seems to be where

930
00:51:22,280 --> 00:51:27,560
Speaker 2: things were happening. And you know, one of the saddest

931
00:51:28,760 --> 00:51:31,160
Speaker 2: things that Pip said to me was that they were

932
00:51:31,160 --> 00:51:36,359
Speaker 2: there one day and she Maggie was upstairs with Jen

933
00:51:36,880 --> 00:51:41,960
Speaker 2: and she and Rose were downstairs with him, and Maggie said, oh,

934
00:51:42,040 --> 00:51:45,120
Speaker 2: come up lunches ready, and he said, Pip, you go

935
00:51:45,280 --> 00:51:48,479
Speaker 2: up Rose and I'll stay here for a bit. And

936
00:51:48,840 --> 00:51:52,520
Speaker 2: Pip said, no, Rose can go up because she knew

937
00:51:52,520 --> 00:51:55,799
Speaker 2: what he was going to do, and like.

938
00:51:57,680 --> 00:52:02,880
Speaker 1: What a girl protecting a little Yeah so something special,

939
00:52:02,920 --> 00:52:03,279
Speaker 1: isn't she?

940
00:52:03,440 --> 00:52:09,719
Speaker 2: Yeah? Yeah, so you know that happened and that Yeah again,

941
00:52:09,840 --> 00:52:13,839
Speaker 2: as you say, hindsight, but I can't dwell on that.

942
00:52:14,200 --> 00:52:16,759
Speaker 2: I can't live in that. It would drive me mad.

943
00:52:19,760 --> 00:52:23,560
Speaker 1: There's something about child sexual abuse that we have really

944
00:52:23,560 --> 00:52:26,600
Speaker 1: got to work this out because there's no excuse for it,

945
00:52:26,640 --> 00:52:30,400
Speaker 1: there's no mitigation, and it destroys lives.

946
00:52:30,840 --> 00:52:32,160
Speaker 2: It destroys lives.

947
00:52:32,200 --> 00:52:37,000
Speaker 1: And another aspect before we just finish up here in

948
00:52:37,040 --> 00:52:40,600
Speaker 1: part one, that part of the problem that you had,

949
00:52:40,680 --> 00:52:43,920
Speaker 1: and we touched on it, but just how it played out.

950
00:52:44,320 --> 00:52:48,200
Speaker 1: You were concerned that whilst this matter was being investigated,

951
00:52:48,600 --> 00:52:52,120
Speaker 1: they had access to other children and you were waiting

952
00:52:52,120 --> 00:52:54,040
Speaker 1: for risk assessments to be done. But there was a

953
00:52:54,080 --> 00:52:56,680
Speaker 1: period of time over months where a risk assessment wasn't

954
00:52:56,680 --> 00:53:00,320
Speaker 1: done and they still or Leon still had ACCEP actually

955
00:53:00,360 --> 00:53:03,640
Speaker 1: access to children. That must have played on you.

956
00:53:04,719 --> 00:53:08,360
Speaker 2: Well, I had, I was really naive. I was I

957
00:53:08,480 --> 00:53:11,680
Speaker 2: just thought that the police would go and you know,

958
00:53:11,840 --> 00:53:15,359
Speaker 2: interview these other people to make sure I'll let them

959
00:53:15,400 --> 00:53:18,640
Speaker 2: know that there was a risk. And then, you know,

960
00:53:18,719 --> 00:53:21,000
Speaker 2: Glenn explained to me that they can't do that because

961
00:53:21,000 --> 00:53:25,759
Speaker 2: obviously then that can interfere with case downtrack blah blah blah.

962
00:53:25,840 --> 00:53:29,560
Speaker 2: But that docs could because and you know, I'm saying, well,

963
00:53:29,600 --> 00:53:32,400
Speaker 2: I'm a mandatory reporter and I'm letting you know that

964
00:53:32,440 --> 00:53:34,680
Speaker 2: there is a risk, there's a real risk to these.

965
00:53:34,600 --> 00:53:38,520
Speaker 1: Kids, and that must have troubled you. At what point

966
00:53:38,520 --> 00:53:40,719
Speaker 1: do you go, well, stuff for the rules, stuff, what

967
00:53:40,719 --> 00:53:43,200
Speaker 1: we're meant to do. I've got to tell such and

968
00:53:43,239 --> 00:53:45,320
Speaker 1: such mother that well.

969
00:53:45,360 --> 00:53:48,560
Speaker 2: I actually had a friend be a little bit harsh,

970
00:53:48,800 --> 00:53:53,440
Speaker 2: which I'm pleased that she did. Yeah, yeah, it was good,

971
00:53:53,520 --> 00:53:56,759
Speaker 2: but because I kept getting told it was oh, you know,

972
00:53:56,960 --> 00:53:58,439
Speaker 2: it's going to be done, it's going to be done.

973
00:53:58,480 --> 00:54:00,759
Speaker 2: But it was kind of getting past around. It was

974
00:54:00,800 --> 00:54:04,680
Speaker 2: like this you know, political football being passed around, and

975
00:54:04,760 --> 00:54:07,520
Speaker 2: no one wanted to take responsibility for what needed to happen.

976
00:54:07,600 --> 00:54:11,920
Speaker 2: And so my friend said to me, she said, Michelle,

977
00:54:12,960 --> 00:54:16,880
Speaker 2: if you had this knowledge about my children and you

978
00:54:16,920 --> 00:54:23,759
Speaker 2: didn't tell me, I'd be really pissed. How did that

979
00:54:23,880 --> 00:54:24,360
Speaker 2: land on me?

980
00:54:25,640 --> 00:54:26,080
Speaker 1: You know this?

981
00:54:26,239 --> 00:54:28,399
Speaker 2: And this was like a few months later, and I'm thinking,

982
00:54:28,680 --> 00:54:29,719
Speaker 2: how does this land on me?

983
00:54:30,000 --> 00:54:33,719
Speaker 1: Your life has been literally turned upside down. Everything you

984
00:54:33,800 --> 00:54:36,840
Speaker 1: thought was writing life has been flipped.

985
00:54:36,880 --> 00:54:39,120
Speaker 2: I was really concerned that people wouldn't believe us.

986
00:54:39,600 --> 00:54:43,320
Speaker 1: Yeah, it was, well, it's again the nature of the crime.

987
00:54:43,360 --> 00:54:47,000
Speaker 1: Because of this, say, confronting, people choose not to even

988
00:54:47,080 --> 00:54:49,479
Speaker 1: engage in that. Now it couldn't be happening. Who knows.

989
00:54:49,560 --> 00:54:53,160
Speaker 1: Let the courts so they don't have an opinion on it.

990
00:54:53,160 --> 00:54:56,520
Speaker 1: It's heavy, heavy stuff, isn't it the way way it

991
00:54:56,600 --> 00:54:59,840
Speaker 1: impacts We're going to have a break and we're talking.

992
00:55:00,080 --> 00:55:02,360
Speaker 1: If people think this is the end of the story,

993
00:55:02,400 --> 00:55:04,239
Speaker 1: this is just the beginning of the story of what

994
00:55:04,320 --> 00:55:06,680
Speaker 1: you guys had to go through for the next couple

995
00:55:06,719 --> 00:55:09,520
Speaker 1: of years. The system lets us down, doesn't it. It

996
00:55:09,680 --> 00:55:11,720
Speaker 1: drags on like the slow of justice.

997
00:55:12,200 --> 00:55:14,279
Speaker 2: Yeah, but if you jump up and down hard enough,

998
00:55:14,360 --> 00:55:15,520
Speaker 2: you can make some changes.

999
00:55:15,800 --> 00:55:18,520
Speaker 1: Well, that's why I like getting people on the podcast

1000
00:55:18,560 --> 00:55:21,719
Speaker 1: that do jump up and down, because they're the ones

1001
00:55:21,760 --> 00:55:24,319
Speaker 1: that make the changes. And you've got to scream from

1002
00:55:24,360 --> 00:55:28,279
Speaker 1: the rooftop sometimes and yeah, okay, enough said, I think

1003
00:55:28,360 --> 00:55:30,400
Speaker 1: we're giving a hint of what we're going to talk

1004
00:55:30,440 --> 00:55:33,799
Speaker 1: about in the second part, but just before we finish up,

1005
00:55:34,160 --> 00:55:36,719
Speaker 1: I know how hard this is talking about it, and

1006
00:55:36,840 --> 00:55:40,200
Speaker 1: in the conversation I've had with you prior to sitting

1007
00:55:40,239 --> 00:55:43,239
Speaker 1: down here, it's important people talk about it because I

1008
00:55:43,239 --> 00:55:46,879
Speaker 1: think this crime is allowed to flourish because people don't

1009
00:55:46,880 --> 00:55:50,040
Speaker 1: talk about it. And I want people listening to your

1010
00:55:50,080 --> 00:55:53,320
Speaker 1: story because that's what I got from the lengthy document

1011
00:55:53,360 --> 00:55:57,240
Speaker 1: that you created, how much it impacts on lives.

1012
00:55:57,480 --> 00:56:01,520
Speaker 2: Yeah. Look, it's one of my firsts, and particularly being

1013
00:56:01,560 --> 00:56:05,000
Speaker 2: an educator, I don't think schools talk about it enough.

1014
00:56:05,080 --> 00:56:08,560
Speaker 2: You know, we have National Child Protection Week and there's

1015
00:56:08,600 --> 00:56:11,360
Speaker 2: schools that don't even acknowledge it. There's a lot of

1016
00:56:11,400 --> 00:56:14,080
Speaker 2: work that needs to be done, and you know, we

1017
00:56:14,120 --> 00:56:16,040
Speaker 2: need to put the shame where it belongs.

1018
00:56:16,680 --> 00:56:20,839
Speaker 1: Good way to finish Part one. Ye, put the shame

1019
00:56:20,840 --> 00:56:23,239
Speaker 1: where it belongs. Okay, we'll have a break and we'll

1020
00:56:23,280 --> 00:56:23,840
Speaker 1: back shortly.