1 00:00:00,240 --> 00:00:02,680 Speaker 1: This podcast was recorded on the land of the Gatigel 2 00:00:02,720 --> 00:00:09,360 Speaker 1: people of the Eur Nation. Hello and welcome to the 3 00:00:09,360 --> 00:00:12,520 Speaker 1: Real Story with Joe Hildeuran and by god, the story 4 00:00:12,880 --> 00:00:17,919 Speaker 1: just got real this week. Australia has officially or will 5 00:00:17,960 --> 00:00:22,800 Speaker 1: officially recognize the state of Palestine. This is an event 6 00:00:22,840 --> 00:00:26,720 Speaker 1: that is something like seventy seven years in the making 7 00:00:26,840 --> 00:00:30,600 Speaker 1: and it is going to happen next month at the 8 00:00:30,720 --> 00:00:35,120 Speaker 1: United Nations General Assembly. We're going to talk about this 9 00:00:35,200 --> 00:00:37,320 Speaker 1: and nothing but this for the whole episode. I'm going 10 00:00:37,360 --> 00:00:40,480 Speaker 1: to speak to a former Prime ministerial advisor to find 11 00:00:40,479 --> 00:00:43,479 Speaker 1: out what is the thinking behind a decision like this 12 00:00:43,680 --> 00:00:46,839 Speaker 1: and will it actually work and what does it actually 13 00:00:46,920 --> 00:00:49,559 Speaker 1: mean and why are they actually doing it? All that 14 00:00:49,920 --> 00:01:02,120 Speaker 1: coming up. So I thought i'd start this week doing 15 00:01:02,160 --> 00:01:04,920 Speaker 1: something I've been very slack in doing over the last 16 00:01:05,360 --> 00:01:07,440 Speaker 1: few months, which is take a letter from one of 17 00:01:07,480 --> 00:01:11,800 Speaker 1: our beloved listeners. And this is from Mike, who hit 18 00:01:11,880 --> 00:01:14,520 Speaker 1: me up on the gram. He says, Hi, Joe, love 19 00:01:14,560 --> 00:01:16,679 Speaker 1: the podcast and love your takes, even though I think 20 00:01:16,720 --> 00:01:19,840 Speaker 1: we're from opposite sides of the political spectrum. I've got 21 00:01:19,840 --> 00:01:21,840 Speaker 1: a question I was hoping you might be able to 22 00:01:21,880 --> 00:01:25,280 Speaker 1: address on your podcast. And Mike, those hopes are about 23 00:01:25,319 --> 00:01:28,960 Speaker 1: to be realized. ALBO has gone ahead with the recognized 24 00:01:29,000 --> 00:01:32,080 Speaker 1: Palestine thing, even though it's dubious that it could actually 25 00:01:32,120 --> 00:01:35,319 Speaker 1: function as a state in its current setup without being 26 00:01:35,360 --> 00:01:39,680 Speaker 1: hamas led. Whilst ideologically I find this appalling from the 27 00:01:39,720 --> 00:01:43,560 Speaker 1: cold calculating political point of view, what does ALBO have 28 00:01:43,720 --> 00:01:47,600 Speaker 1: to gain? Surely the majority of the vocal free Palestine 29 00:01:47,600 --> 00:01:51,160 Speaker 1: mob are Green's voters who will never win over and 30 00:01:51,240 --> 00:01:54,680 Speaker 1: the vast majority of voters aligned to the not my 31 00:01:54,840 --> 00:01:58,040 Speaker 1: problem mindset looking forward to your take on it all. 32 00:01:58,120 --> 00:02:01,520 Speaker 1: Thank you very much, Mike. And that is an incredibly 33 00:02:01,600 --> 00:02:06,720 Speaker 1: good question, and that is basically the only question. Really, 34 00:02:06,760 --> 00:02:09,600 Speaker 1: Why is the government doing this? What does it hope 35 00:02:09,639 --> 00:02:14,320 Speaker 1: to gain? Is it really about achieving peace in the 36 00:02:14,360 --> 00:02:20,079 Speaker 1: Middle East? The short answer is kind of no. I'm 37 00:02:20,120 --> 00:02:24,120 Speaker 1: sure that is what we would all want. And the government, 38 00:02:24,240 --> 00:02:28,160 Speaker 1: as every labor government previously and officially the US government 39 00:02:28,200 --> 00:02:30,960 Speaker 1: as well, has always been committed to a two state 40 00:02:31,040 --> 00:02:35,520 Speaker 1: solution with Israel and Palestine living side by side without 41 00:02:35,520 --> 00:02:38,320 Speaker 1: trying to kill each other. That is one hundred percent 42 00:02:38,919 --> 00:02:44,400 Speaker 1: what I want and hope for and believe in, and 43 00:02:44,600 --> 00:02:46,720 Speaker 1: dare I say it believe can happen, because to not 44 00:02:46,760 --> 00:02:50,720 Speaker 1: believe it is unthinkable, even though it seems incredibly remote. Now, 45 00:02:51,120 --> 00:02:53,200 Speaker 1: strangely enough, the only people who don't believe in a 46 00:02:53,200 --> 00:02:57,200 Speaker 1: two state solution are the two states, namely Israel under 47 00:02:57,200 --> 00:03:00,440 Speaker 1: Benjamin net and Yahoo, who is captive to his stream 48 00:03:00,520 --> 00:03:03,320 Speaker 1: right coalition partners and is now saying, well, there's no 49 00:03:03,400 --> 00:03:06,639 Speaker 1: way we can recognize Palestine or even start to recognize 50 00:03:06,680 --> 00:03:09,560 Speaker 1: Palestine because it's a basket case and it's trying to 51 00:03:09,600 --> 00:03:11,080 Speaker 1: kill us, and so we've got to wipe them all 52 00:03:11,080 --> 00:03:12,880 Speaker 1: out and then we'll recognize them. And he's now talking 53 00:03:12,880 --> 00:03:19,040 Speaker 1: about reoccupying Gaza, actually having a full military occupation of 54 00:03:19,080 --> 00:03:22,919 Speaker 1: Gaza City and indeed possibly the whole Gaza strip, which 55 00:03:23,200 --> 00:03:26,280 Speaker 1: is the opposite of a two state solution. That is 56 00:03:26,280 --> 00:03:29,560 Speaker 1: Israel just taking it over again after having given it 57 00:03:29,639 --> 00:03:33,120 Speaker 1: up two decades ago. So that is a massive step 58 00:03:33,160 --> 00:03:36,200 Speaker 1: backwards for the peace process, and they'll be catastrophic. We 59 00:03:36,240 --> 00:03:38,840 Speaker 1: can talk about that later. And of course we know 60 00:03:38,920 --> 00:03:42,280 Speaker 1: that Hamas wants to wipe Israel from the face of 61 00:03:42,320 --> 00:03:45,280 Speaker 1: the map, from the river to the sea. And indeed 62 00:03:45,360 --> 00:03:51,280 Speaker 1: even the Palestinian authority, who the labor government here Albanezi 63 00:03:51,400 --> 00:03:56,400 Speaker 1: is going to formally recognize as the new government of 64 00:03:56,440 --> 00:03:59,520 Speaker 1: the new State of Palestine, even they have been busted, 65 00:03:59,560 --> 00:04:02,000 Speaker 1: sort of saying in Arabic, you know, from the river 66 00:04:02,080 --> 00:04:05,360 Speaker 1: to the sea, Palestine will be free. And that's obviously 67 00:04:05,360 --> 00:04:10,880 Speaker 1: interpreted by Israelis and people who support Israel as a 68 00:04:10,920 --> 00:04:13,920 Speaker 1: pretty clear intent that Israel, which exists between the river 69 00:04:13,960 --> 00:04:16,719 Speaker 1: and the sea, should be literally wiped from the face 70 00:04:17,040 --> 00:04:21,000 Speaker 1: of the map. So getting back to this critical issue, 71 00:04:21,680 --> 00:04:25,039 Speaker 1: will this actually work? What does this actually mean? Well, 72 00:04:25,400 --> 00:04:29,600 Speaker 1: what it means is that Australia will join France, which 73 00:04:29,640 --> 00:04:33,560 Speaker 1: was the first country to unilaterally recognize Palestine or say 74 00:04:33,560 --> 00:04:36,320 Speaker 1: it would announce that it would recognize Palestine at the upcoming 75 00:04:36,400 --> 00:04:41,960 Speaker 1: UN meeting, the UK, which followed suit with slightly different caveats, 76 00:04:42,000 --> 00:04:44,480 Speaker 1: and we can talk about those two, and then Canada 77 00:04:45,839 --> 00:04:48,880 Speaker 1: and New Zealand almost certainly very shortly if it hasn't 78 00:04:48,920 --> 00:04:51,440 Speaker 1: already by the time you're hearing this, will follow suit 79 00:04:51,520 --> 00:04:55,120 Speaker 1: and say the same thing. And Australia is basically just 80 00:04:55,240 --> 00:05:00,000 Speaker 1: going with the flow of its core allies on this issue. 81 00:05:00,120 --> 00:05:04,400 Speaker 1: And Australia has been fully aligned pretty much with the UK, 82 00:05:04,880 --> 00:05:11,600 Speaker 1: France and Canada in its position on Israel. Those nations 83 00:05:13,120 --> 00:05:18,160 Speaker 1: we've issued joint statements with them, you know, condemning Israel 84 00:05:18,320 --> 00:05:23,760 Speaker 1: for its actions in Gaza, being too reckless with civilian casualties, 85 00:05:23,800 --> 00:05:26,040 Speaker 1: not allowing aid in at the same time, of course, 86 00:05:26,080 --> 00:05:29,880 Speaker 1: constantly calling for the release of hostages and condemning mass 87 00:05:31,480 --> 00:05:39,200 Speaker 1: and so once all our kind of partners in in 88 00:05:39,279 --> 00:05:42,640 Speaker 1: the in diplomacy. I was going to say partners in crime, 89 00:05:42,720 --> 00:05:46,920 Speaker 1: but the crimes are being committed by Hamas and Yahoo, 90 00:05:46,960 --> 00:05:50,040 Speaker 1: not US. But our partners in this process have all 91 00:05:50,080 --> 00:05:52,599 Speaker 1: sort of said this. So suddenly Australia has a choice. 92 00:05:52,600 --> 00:05:55,320 Speaker 1: Do we break ranks and say we're not with you 93 00:05:55,360 --> 00:05:59,880 Speaker 1: anymore and align ourselves with the US, whom we've been 94 00:06:00,120 --> 00:06:05,400 Speaker 1: kind of diverging on this issue, or do we say, yep, okay, well, 95 00:06:05,560 --> 00:06:07,480 Speaker 1: if this is the time and if you're doing it, 96 00:06:07,680 --> 00:06:09,600 Speaker 1: then we're going to do it. So that is the 97 00:06:09,640 --> 00:06:14,520 Speaker 1: main reason why Australia has done it. And I did 98 00:06:14,520 --> 00:06:16,279 Speaker 1: get a heads up that this was going to happen, 99 00:06:16,839 --> 00:06:20,520 Speaker 1: and the sense was that it was simply inevitable it 100 00:06:20,560 --> 00:06:22,880 Speaker 1: was going to happen. Is just a matter of when 101 00:06:23,640 --> 00:06:27,520 Speaker 1: Australia has been saying and passing sort of increasingly or 102 00:06:27,640 --> 00:06:36,240 Speaker 1: proposing or voting for increasingly forward looking motions at the 103 00:06:36,360 --> 00:06:40,359 Speaker 1: UN and releasing statements changing its actual national platform, the 104 00:06:40,360 --> 00:06:43,560 Speaker 1: ALP's national platform to say that, you know, it is 105 00:06:43,600 --> 00:06:46,279 Speaker 1: a matter of when, not if, that Palestine becomes a 106 00:06:46,320 --> 00:06:52,800 Speaker 1: state and that Australia will support that process. And most 107 00:06:52,800 --> 00:06:54,360 Speaker 1: of that has just been sort of kicking the can 108 00:06:54,400 --> 00:06:57,000 Speaker 1: down the road, not wanting to actually set a date, 109 00:06:57,320 --> 00:07:00,359 Speaker 1: not wanting to actually formally recognize Palestine as a state, 110 00:07:00,600 --> 00:07:03,680 Speaker 1: but say that you are going to recognize Palestine as 111 00:07:03,680 --> 00:07:06,840 Speaker 1: a state. So you don't say, oh, we recognize Palestine state, 112 00:07:06,880 --> 00:07:09,280 Speaker 1: Oh don't know, but we say we're going to recognize 113 00:07:09,360 --> 00:07:12,320 Speaker 1: Palestine as a state. Oh when, oh, when the time 114 00:07:12,440 --> 00:07:14,800 Speaker 1: is right. And of course this has just been kicking 115 00:07:14,800 --> 00:07:16,880 Speaker 1: the can down the road. And as Anthony Albernezi said, 116 00:07:17,600 --> 00:07:19,520 Speaker 1: this is a process that in many ways has been 117 00:07:19,560 --> 00:07:21,920 Speaker 1: going on for seventy seven years. And that was when 118 00:07:21,960 --> 00:07:25,200 Speaker 1: of course Israel was declared a state and Palestine and 119 00:07:25,240 --> 00:07:28,560 Speaker 1: all its Arab neighbors immediately declared war on Israel and 120 00:07:28,800 --> 00:07:33,800 Speaker 1: Israel one and beat them and took control of the 121 00:07:34,560 --> 00:07:38,120 Speaker 1: territories that are now contested, and that Palestine wants back. 122 00:07:38,240 --> 00:07:42,520 Speaker 1: So you can draw your own conclusions from that. But 123 00:07:43,040 --> 00:07:44,800 Speaker 1: the point being is this has been going on for 124 00:07:44,800 --> 00:07:49,360 Speaker 1: a very very long time. So what does it mean. Well, 125 00:07:49,360 --> 00:07:52,000 Speaker 1: it means that these countries Australia, the UK, France and 126 00:07:52,080 --> 00:07:54,160 Speaker 1: Canada and of course New Zealand. But it doesn't matter, 127 00:07:54,160 --> 00:07:55,640 Speaker 1: it's New Zealand. Who cares what they do, but they 128 00:07:55,680 --> 00:07:57,640 Speaker 1: will do it. I'll go to you and I'll say, 129 00:07:57,640 --> 00:08:02,600 Speaker 1: we support Palestineinian stated, we want to recognize Palestine as 130 00:08:02,680 --> 00:08:06,679 Speaker 1: a state. And then what happens, Well, then the UN 131 00:08:07,160 --> 00:08:12,200 Speaker 1: Security Council gets to decide on the matter and if 132 00:08:12,240 --> 00:08:17,120 Speaker 1: they approve it, they then it goes to a vote 133 00:08:17,160 --> 00:08:19,480 Speaker 1: of the UN General Assembly, and I think that's a 134 00:08:19,480 --> 00:08:22,680 Speaker 1: two thirds vote. Then Palestine's part of the club. Palestine's 135 00:08:22,720 --> 00:08:25,920 Speaker 1: officially a nation on the mery old planet Earth, and 136 00:08:25,920 --> 00:08:27,520 Speaker 1: it gets to sit in the UN, and it gets 137 00:08:27,520 --> 00:08:30,360 Speaker 1: to have a flagged, it's already got a flag. It 138 00:08:30,400 --> 00:08:34,920 Speaker 1: gets to be a country. The problem is, though, that 139 00:08:35,160 --> 00:08:37,480 Speaker 1: this has to be approved by Security Council and the 140 00:08:37,520 --> 00:08:41,800 Speaker 1: five permanent members of the Security Council, and that is 141 00:08:41,840 --> 00:08:47,760 Speaker 1: of course China, the Russia, the USA, France and the 142 00:08:47,880 --> 00:08:53,680 Speaker 1: UK and it just takes one member of the Security Council. 143 00:08:53,760 --> 00:08:56,040 Speaker 1: The permanent members or the other members of the Council 144 00:08:56,040 --> 00:08:58,200 Speaker 1: are rotating, and they don't matter for Squad. They're just 145 00:08:58,440 --> 00:09:00,880 Speaker 1: window dressing to give a sort of fig leaf of 146 00:09:01,240 --> 00:09:05,800 Speaker 1: legitimacy or democratic process. The real power exists in the 147 00:09:05,840 --> 00:09:08,080 Speaker 1: five permanent members of the Security Council, which is the 148 00:09:08,120 --> 00:09:12,760 Speaker 1: two major superpowers after World War Two again, what was 149 00:09:12,800 --> 00:09:16,600 Speaker 1: the USSR now Russia and the USA and the other 150 00:09:16,679 --> 00:09:21,280 Speaker 1: victorious Allied partners the UK and France and China. Because 151 00:09:21,320 --> 00:09:25,320 Speaker 1: it's because it's just so big and any one of 152 00:09:25,360 --> 00:09:28,880 Speaker 1: those countries has veto power, which is why the UN 153 00:09:29,240 --> 00:09:31,480 Speaker 1: is kind of useless and never really gets anything done 154 00:09:31,559 --> 00:09:34,480 Speaker 1: because if there's anything the USA doesn't like or Russia 155 00:09:34,520 --> 00:09:38,280 Speaker 1: doesn't like, or China doesn't like, it doesn't happen. And 156 00:09:38,320 --> 00:09:40,480 Speaker 1: you can imagine that all of those mega powers have 157 00:09:40,840 --> 00:09:43,400 Speaker 1: vested interests in various things that are going on, so 158 00:09:43,480 --> 00:09:46,240 Speaker 1: action in Syria, for example, you've got Russia teaming up 159 00:09:46,280 --> 00:09:50,400 Speaker 1: with Iran and President Asad, so you know, don't get 160 00:09:50,480 --> 00:09:53,480 Speaker 1: UN action there. In this case it's the USA. The 161 00:09:53,559 --> 00:09:59,400 Speaker 1: USA is not going to formally recognize Palestine as a state, 162 00:09:59,480 --> 00:10:03,360 Speaker 1: even though it too officially supports a two state solution. 163 00:10:03,520 --> 00:10:06,720 Speaker 1: But again, it just keeps kicking the can down the road, 164 00:10:07,240 --> 00:10:10,040 Speaker 1: a tiny bit similar to its position on Taiwan, which 165 00:10:10,040 --> 00:10:13,080 Speaker 1: it sort of agrees to help out and says, oh, yeah, yeah, 166 00:10:13,120 --> 00:10:15,680 Speaker 1: but is it really a country. Oh, let's change the subject. 167 00:10:15,679 --> 00:10:17,400 Speaker 1: Isn't it a beautiful day? Look at that weather. Oh 168 00:10:17,480 --> 00:10:19,920 Speaker 1: I'm not just going to rain later on. So the 169 00:10:20,040 --> 00:10:23,080 Speaker 1: USA will be to it, even though Russia and China 170 00:10:23,440 --> 00:10:29,280 Speaker 1: have already supported Palestinian statehood, and now France and the 171 00:10:29,400 --> 00:10:35,240 Speaker 1: UK are also saying they are going to support actually 172 00:10:35,240 --> 00:10:37,360 Speaker 1: do it, not just say they support it, but actually 173 00:10:37,400 --> 00:10:42,800 Speaker 1: recognize Palestine as a state. So that means four members 174 00:10:43,240 --> 00:10:46,800 Speaker 1: of the Security Council recognize Palestine as a state or 175 00:10:46,840 --> 00:10:50,520 Speaker 1: will move to or support that motion. But it just 176 00:10:50,559 --> 00:10:53,480 Speaker 1: takes one to say nah. And of course the USA 177 00:10:53,480 --> 00:10:56,079 Speaker 1: will do that for its own reasons. But it is 178 00:10:56,080 --> 00:11:02,600 Speaker 1: Israel's absolute number one daylight second and it is extremely unlikely. 179 00:11:03,440 --> 00:11:06,960 Speaker 1: In fact, you could take it to the bank to say, oh, yeah, yeah, 180 00:11:07,000 --> 00:11:09,400 Speaker 1: you guys get to be a country now. After October 181 00:11:09,400 --> 00:11:11,959 Speaker 1: seven and the terror attack, even though israelis of course 182 00:11:12,679 --> 00:11:16,920 Speaker 1: committed all sorts of appalling acts in retaliation ever since. 183 00:11:17,400 --> 00:11:20,640 Speaker 1: So it's just not going to happen. To cut a 184 00:11:20,679 --> 00:11:23,920 Speaker 1: long story short, it's just not going to happen. So 185 00:11:24,040 --> 00:11:29,600 Speaker 1: why is Australia doing it? We know that it's not 186 00:11:29,640 --> 00:11:31,840 Speaker 1: actually going to get through the UN, So why we 187 00:11:31,920 --> 00:11:34,920 Speaker 1: bother putting up the motion? Is it just empty virtue signaling? 188 00:11:35,360 --> 00:11:42,960 Speaker 1: Well kind of, but it's also sending a message to Israel. 189 00:11:43,120 --> 00:11:46,720 Speaker 1: And this comes in Australia's case, which is why I 190 00:11:46,720 --> 00:11:48,920 Speaker 1: have much more sympathy for us taking a stand when 191 00:11:49,000 --> 00:11:51,920 Speaker 1: we did than France going out early, which caught us 192 00:11:52,000 --> 00:11:53,840 Speaker 1: by surprise. Incidentally, we didn't think it was going to 193 00:11:53,880 --> 00:11:56,960 Speaker 1: move this quickly, and previously the Prime Minister had been 194 00:11:56,960 --> 00:12:00,600 Speaker 1: assuring Jewish groups that no decision was imminent on this issue, 195 00:12:00,800 --> 00:12:04,360 Speaker 1: and I believe that he was actually telling the truth 196 00:12:04,400 --> 00:12:07,000 Speaker 1: as he understood it back then, even though that was 197 00:12:07,040 --> 00:12:09,200 Speaker 1: only a couple of weeks ago. But things moved so 198 00:12:09,320 --> 00:12:12,480 Speaker 1: quickly then and it was a question of Okay, the 199 00:12:12,600 --> 00:12:18,440 Speaker 1: UN's meeting next month, UK, France, Canada, they're all doing it, 200 00:12:18,640 --> 00:12:20,720 Speaker 1: Are we on board or not? And so we were basically, 201 00:12:21,360 --> 00:12:24,800 Speaker 1: as I said, forced into to going with our allies 202 00:12:24,840 --> 00:12:26,480 Speaker 1: on this or against them, so we had to go 203 00:12:26,520 --> 00:12:31,360 Speaker 1: with it. But it also came after Netanyahu's announcement that 204 00:12:31,400 --> 00:12:36,520 Speaker 1: he was going to militarily occupy Gaza and Gaza City 205 00:12:37,040 --> 00:12:39,760 Speaker 1: again for the first time in two decades. Right, and 206 00:12:40,640 --> 00:12:42,760 Speaker 1: this is obviously just the biggest gift to her mass. 207 00:12:42,800 --> 00:12:45,360 Speaker 1: I mean, forget recognition for Palestine. The biggest gift to 208 00:12:45,400 --> 00:12:48,000 Speaker 1: her mass is Israel going in there with tanks and 209 00:12:48,040 --> 00:12:52,440 Speaker 1: guns and soldiers and putting the squeeze on Palestinian people again. 210 00:12:52,480 --> 00:12:54,679 Speaker 1: Because of course they're then going to turn to as 211 00:12:54,720 --> 00:12:56,880 Speaker 1: their conditions get more extreme, they're going to turn to 212 00:12:56,920 --> 00:13:00,680 Speaker 1: more and more extreme measures and support her mass even more, 213 00:13:01,000 --> 00:13:04,200 Speaker 1: which they already do. We'll get to that as well. 214 00:13:04,920 --> 00:13:12,000 Speaker 1: So so net Nyahu announces this, what does the international 215 00:13:12,000 --> 00:13:15,640 Speaker 1: community do in response more calls to increase AIDS say, oh, no, 216 00:13:15,679 --> 00:13:18,760 Speaker 1: that's a terrible idea, don't do it. Well no, in 217 00:13:18,800 --> 00:13:22,520 Speaker 1: this case, Australia responded by saying, right, you do that. 218 00:13:22,720 --> 00:13:26,280 Speaker 1: We're recognizing Palestine, and it's almost as simple as that. 219 00:13:26,320 --> 00:13:29,800 Speaker 1: It's tit for tat. So and again, I've never really 220 00:13:29,880 --> 00:13:33,480 Speaker 1: seen anything quite like this, but for a lot of 221 00:13:33,520 --> 00:13:36,520 Speaker 1: the powers. So for Australia doing this in response to 222 00:13:37,080 --> 00:13:41,560 Speaker 1: Israel's actions. It's kind of like using a whole country, 223 00:13:42,400 --> 00:13:46,040 Speaker 1: the formation of a whole country, as a bargaining chip 224 00:13:47,000 --> 00:13:52,480 Speaker 1: in a sort of game of brinkmanship with another state 225 00:13:52,640 --> 00:13:55,080 Speaker 1: that is doing something that you don't want it to 226 00:13:55,080 --> 00:13:56,600 Speaker 1: do and you want it to stop. And the UK 227 00:13:56,880 --> 00:13:59,439 Speaker 1: even formally put this, Unlike any of the other nations 228 00:13:59,480 --> 00:14:02,280 Speaker 1: that said they going to recognize Palestinian stated, the UK 229 00:14:02,520 --> 00:14:06,640 Speaker 1: actually put it in an ultimatum. They said to Israel, 230 00:14:06,880 --> 00:14:10,040 Speaker 1: you have to let all the aid through, which Israel 231 00:14:10,800 --> 00:14:14,120 Speaker 1: claims it is not actually impeding, but whatever, you have 232 00:14:14,160 --> 00:14:16,360 Speaker 1: to let all the aid through, and you have to 233 00:14:16,400 --> 00:14:20,120 Speaker 1: impose a ceasefire or we're recognizing Palestine as a state. 234 00:14:20,920 --> 00:14:25,280 Speaker 1: They're openly saying we're going to create a country or 235 00:14:25,320 --> 00:14:27,320 Speaker 1: not create a country, not that they actually have the 236 00:14:27,360 --> 00:14:29,640 Speaker 1: power to do that, but that's what they're saying. We're 237 00:14:29,640 --> 00:14:32,200 Speaker 1: going to say it's a country or not say it's 238 00:14:32,200 --> 00:14:36,520 Speaker 1: a country unless you do based on whether you do 239 00:14:36,600 --> 00:14:39,120 Speaker 1: what we're telling you to or not. So in many 240 00:14:39,160 --> 00:14:41,920 Speaker 1: ways it is just to show Israel, even though it 241 00:14:41,960 --> 00:14:46,520 Speaker 1: will probably never happen. And this, you know, this is 242 00:14:46,600 --> 00:14:50,240 Speaker 1: the political cycles they say, even though well, probably never have. 243 00:14:50,320 --> 00:14:53,200 Speaker 1: They're saying, right, you carry on like this big trouble. 244 00:14:53,240 --> 00:14:56,640 Speaker 1: And that was before Israel announced that it was going 245 00:14:56,680 --> 00:15:00,880 Speaker 1: to go all in and reoccupy Gaza, and that was 246 00:15:00,880 --> 00:15:05,280 Speaker 1: one of the things that pushed the Australian government into saying, right, 247 00:15:06,080 --> 00:15:08,080 Speaker 1: you've got to just stop now, and this is how 248 00:15:08,120 --> 00:15:10,360 Speaker 1: we're going to you know, we can't really do anything, 249 00:15:10,520 --> 00:15:13,080 Speaker 1: but this is how we're going to express our strongest 250 00:15:13,240 --> 00:15:20,440 Speaker 1: possible disapproval discussed with what you're planning to do. So 251 00:15:20,520 --> 00:15:23,360 Speaker 1: that was a lot of it. Does it also, as 252 00:15:24,160 --> 00:15:29,080 Speaker 1: Mike asked, does it also help albow at home domestically? Yes, 253 00:15:30,080 --> 00:15:33,600 Speaker 1: yes it does. It helps it helps calm the jitters 254 00:15:33,600 --> 00:15:38,360 Speaker 1: of MPs who have very strong, large Muslim populations in 255 00:15:38,400 --> 00:15:40,920 Speaker 1: their electorates. And I've spoken a lot about them, and 256 00:15:40,960 --> 00:15:44,400 Speaker 1: these are some of the best most senior ministers in 257 00:15:44,440 --> 00:15:47,960 Speaker 1: the Albanese government, people like Tony Burke, people like Jason Claire, 258 00:15:48,520 --> 00:15:53,160 Speaker 1: Chris Bowen, even Michelle Rowland to some extent, Andrew Charlton 259 00:15:53,200 --> 00:15:59,880 Speaker 1: and Paramatta. These are the top top tier of cabinet ministers. 260 00:16:00,280 --> 00:16:02,800 Speaker 1: And we know that a couple of them were under 261 00:16:02,800 --> 00:16:06,800 Speaker 1: a really serious threat to their seats despite holding them 262 00:16:06,800 --> 00:16:09,840 Speaker 1: on incredibly safe margins. We had this Muslim Vote movement 263 00:16:10,800 --> 00:16:14,400 Speaker 1: that was recruiting candidates and campaigning solely on the issue 264 00:16:14,400 --> 00:16:17,280 Speaker 1: of Palestine, and they were hoping to pick up enough 265 00:16:17,320 --> 00:16:21,200 Speaker 1: preferences from the Greens, potentially even from the Liberal Party 266 00:16:21,280 --> 00:16:24,280 Speaker 1: until an incredibly handsome journalist from the Daily Telegraph blew 267 00:16:24,320 --> 00:16:28,040 Speaker 1: the whistle on that one, and those seats that were 268 00:16:28,040 --> 00:16:29,840 Speaker 1: once safe as houses could have been in danger and 269 00:16:29,920 --> 00:16:34,520 Speaker 1: Labor could have lost its most talented ministers, potentially future 270 00:16:34,560 --> 00:16:39,240 Speaker 1: prime ministers. So that didn't happen at the election. But again, 271 00:16:39,320 --> 00:16:42,280 Speaker 1: Muslim Votes, the Muslim Votes movement is going to come 272 00:16:42,320 --> 00:16:44,080 Speaker 1: back at the next election. It's got very much a 273 00:16:44,120 --> 00:16:47,000 Speaker 1: two term strategy, so they want to kind of sandbag 274 00:16:47,040 --> 00:16:49,320 Speaker 1: those seats a bit calm those judis. It also helps 275 00:16:49,360 --> 00:16:51,760 Speaker 1: just with the ALP's rank and file base. I talked 276 00:16:51,800 --> 00:16:55,400 Speaker 1: to a senior figure from the left faction just last 277 00:16:55,480 --> 00:16:59,400 Speaker 1: night and she was saying she gets letters on this, 278 00:17:00,600 --> 00:17:03,080 Speaker 1: representations on these calls on this from all the branches 279 00:17:03,680 --> 00:17:07,200 Speaker 1: more than any other issue. So among the local branches 280 00:17:07,280 --> 00:17:11,239 Speaker 1: of AP, especially in the inner city, all they care 281 00:17:11,280 --> 00:17:14,840 Speaker 1: about is Palestine. So this throws them a bone, and 282 00:17:14,880 --> 00:17:17,480 Speaker 1: he says, look, we're listening. There you go, we've recognized, 283 00:17:17,520 --> 00:17:20,400 Speaker 1: we're going to recognize Palestine's estate. No more talking about it. 284 00:17:20,840 --> 00:17:23,960 Speaker 1: We're going to do it. But will it be enough 285 00:17:23,960 --> 00:17:26,160 Speaker 1: for all the greeny pro Palatine people, As Mark said, 286 00:17:26,160 --> 00:17:28,720 Speaker 1: they're never going to be happy. I know they're not already. 287 00:17:28,840 --> 00:17:31,640 Speaker 1: Labor for Palestine has said, no, you've got to go further. 288 00:17:31,680 --> 00:17:35,080 Speaker 1: You've got to sanction Benjamin det and Yahoo. You've got 289 00:17:35,119 --> 00:17:38,320 Speaker 1: to tell tell him he's not allowed to come to Australia. 290 00:17:38,840 --> 00:17:42,080 Speaker 1: I don't think he's coming to Australia anyway, guys. Got 291 00:17:42,080 --> 00:17:45,119 Speaker 1: to be honest. He's not too thrilled with us, not 292 00:17:45,200 --> 00:17:48,800 Speaker 1: too happy. Had a pretty pretty frosty phone call with 293 00:17:48,840 --> 00:17:51,520 Speaker 1: the PM. I don't think they'll be rolling out the 294 00:17:51,520 --> 00:17:54,160 Speaker 1: red carpet for him at the lodge anytime soon. And 295 00:17:54,720 --> 00:17:56,679 Speaker 1: I don't think he'd rock up even if we did. So. 296 00:17:57,200 --> 00:18:01,439 Speaker 1: Thanks for the suggestion, Labor Palistine, but probably a bit 297 00:18:01,480 --> 00:18:03,800 Speaker 1: of a moot point in that one. And of course 298 00:18:03,840 --> 00:18:07,600 Speaker 1: the yeah, the full Palestinian activists there, Oh no, it's 299 00:18:07,600 --> 00:18:11,240 Speaker 1: not enough. That enough, stop the killing, and they, you know, 300 00:18:11,440 --> 00:18:13,359 Speaker 1: they just want everything. They don't know what they want. 301 00:18:13,840 --> 00:18:16,040 Speaker 1: Stop the arm sales to Israel. We don't sell them 302 00:18:16,040 --> 00:18:21,120 Speaker 1: any arms. Stop them, stop selling anything that Israel could 303 00:18:21,200 --> 00:18:24,840 Speaker 1: use to make a weapon, like you know, a button knife. 304 00:18:26,240 --> 00:18:28,680 Speaker 1: It makes any sense. So no, the hardcore activists will 305 00:18:28,680 --> 00:18:31,840 Speaker 1: never be happy, and yes their votes will go to 306 00:18:31,880 --> 00:18:35,160 Speaker 1: the Greens, but they will come back to Labor eventually 307 00:18:35,359 --> 00:18:37,960 Speaker 1: before they go to the Libs. So you know, it's 308 00:18:38,000 --> 00:18:42,280 Speaker 1: not about appeasing them, and certainly not about appeasing the 309 00:18:42,280 --> 00:18:44,600 Speaker 1: people who marched on the Harbor Bridge a couple of 310 00:18:44,640 --> 00:18:48,400 Speaker 1: weekends ago. In fact, the government was very keen and 311 00:18:48,560 --> 00:18:52,320 Speaker 1: again was kind of pressed into moving as fast as 312 00:18:52,320 --> 00:18:54,919 Speaker 1: it did when it actually wanted to take things a 313 00:18:54,920 --> 00:18:57,720 Speaker 1: bit slower. I knew that this was going to be inevitable, 314 00:18:57,720 --> 00:18:59,760 Speaker 1: but it didn't want to rush into it. I certainly 315 00:18:59,760 --> 00:19:01,040 Speaker 1: didn't want to do it straight off the Harbor Bridge 316 00:19:01,040 --> 00:19:02,960 Speaker 1: because it didn't want to look like it was doing 317 00:19:02,960 --> 00:19:06,760 Speaker 1: it because of that protest which the government didn't actually approve, 318 00:19:06,800 --> 00:19:10,080 Speaker 1: of which the new South Wales Labor government actively opposed, 319 00:19:11,359 --> 00:19:16,359 Speaker 1: and which Albo said, you know we need we need 320 00:19:16,680 --> 00:19:19,280 Speaker 1: more than just slogans on a protest. Slogans on a 321 00:19:19,320 --> 00:19:23,000 Speaker 1: protest are useless, he said. He took a really deliberate 322 00:19:23,880 --> 00:19:27,120 Speaker 1: and pointed dig at them when they marched on the bridge, 323 00:19:27,119 --> 00:19:28,800 Speaker 1: after they marched on the Harbor Bridge, and then the 324 00:19:28,880 --> 00:19:32,160 Speaker 1: following weekend they were holding up banners at the city 325 00:19:32,200 --> 00:19:35,119 Speaker 1: to serve protesting again and he said, this is not 326 00:19:35,200 --> 00:19:38,840 Speaker 1: gonna you know, the slogans on a protest do nothing. 327 00:19:39,600 --> 00:19:44,080 Speaker 1: They're pointless, is what he said. So the government was 328 00:19:44,200 --> 00:19:47,560 Speaker 1: very keen to ensure that it wasn't responding to those 329 00:19:47,600 --> 00:19:51,160 Speaker 1: things because again Albo's really pissed off of those guys. 330 00:19:51,160 --> 00:19:52,680 Speaker 1: Those are sort of Those are the guys who were 331 00:19:52,720 --> 00:19:57,159 Speaker 1: camped outside his electric office and effectively blockaded it so 332 00:19:57,240 --> 00:20:00,439 Speaker 1: that staff didn't feel safe to go there. These are 333 00:20:00,440 --> 00:20:02,680 Speaker 1: guys who, you know, the Greens who made his life 334 00:20:03,000 --> 00:20:07,520 Speaker 1: a misery in the parliament, blocking legislation, blocking his housing legislation, 335 00:20:07,680 --> 00:20:12,399 Speaker 1: then jumping up and down about So it's nothing to 336 00:20:12,440 --> 00:20:16,959 Speaker 1: do with them, it's all to do with the international movement. 337 00:20:17,000 --> 00:20:21,239 Speaker 1: And again is their political benefit for him in some 338 00:20:21,320 --> 00:20:24,800 Speaker 1: of those southwestern Sydney seats and a couple of couple 339 00:20:24,800 --> 00:20:28,960 Speaker 1: of Melbourne ones as well. Yep. But it also seen 340 00:20:29,000 --> 00:20:32,080 Speaker 1: off that challenge at the last election as well, and 341 00:20:32,080 --> 00:20:34,280 Speaker 1: that was probably going to be the high watermark of 342 00:20:34,280 --> 00:20:38,800 Speaker 1: the Muslim vote movement. Anyway, even though they do have 343 00:20:38,840 --> 00:20:40,520 Speaker 1: a two term strategy and they're trying to build and 344 00:20:40,560 --> 00:20:42,760 Speaker 1: come back again, it's hard to imagine the issue being 345 00:20:42,800 --> 00:20:44,919 Speaker 1: any more white hot than it was at the last election. 346 00:20:45,600 --> 00:20:49,280 Speaker 1: And so if they didn't jag a seat then that 347 00:20:49,400 --> 00:20:51,080 Speaker 1: it's very hard to see how they're going to do 348 00:20:51,080 --> 00:20:54,680 Speaker 1: it this time around or next time around. So long 349 00:20:54,720 --> 00:20:58,840 Speaker 1: story short, I don't think there was a huge amount 350 00:20:58,880 --> 00:21:01,960 Speaker 1: of domestic beefit in it for him. I think he 351 00:21:02,080 --> 00:21:05,480 Speaker 1: was doing it, dare I say, because he genuinely thinks 352 00:21:06,000 --> 00:21:08,840 Speaker 1: it is the right thing to do, and because there 353 00:21:08,840 --> 00:21:13,560 Speaker 1: were enough planets aligned on the international on the international 354 00:21:13,640 --> 00:21:16,359 Speaker 1: stage that there was sort of the train was stopping 355 00:21:16,359 --> 00:21:18,960 Speaker 1: at the station, there was a seat available for Australia 356 00:21:18,960 --> 00:21:21,520 Speaker 1: if it wanted to get on, and we had to 357 00:21:21,520 --> 00:21:23,240 Speaker 1: make the decision where we get on the train and 358 00:21:23,320 --> 00:21:25,080 Speaker 1: sit on the seat, or would just let the train 359 00:21:25,200 --> 00:21:27,240 Speaker 1: shut its doors and move on without us. And we 360 00:21:27,320 --> 00:21:30,200 Speaker 1: obviously made that decision. But again, what does it mean. 361 00:21:30,640 --> 00:21:32,919 Speaker 1: It's not going to get through the UN anyway, And 362 00:21:32,960 --> 00:21:36,720 Speaker 1: even Australia's conditions are kind of absurd in Australia. Again, 363 00:21:36,720 --> 00:21:40,320 Speaker 1: it's done better than the UK and France because it's 364 00:21:40,320 --> 00:21:43,879 Speaker 1: actually spoken to the Palestinian Authority and gotten commitments from that, 365 00:21:44,560 --> 00:21:48,120 Speaker 1: gotten commitments from President Mamdu of Us, who is the 366 00:21:48,160 --> 00:21:51,719 Speaker 1: president of the Palestinian Authority, which is run by the 367 00:21:52,000 --> 00:21:57,080 Speaker 1: Fatar Party as opposed to Hamas. And therein lies the 368 00:21:57,119 --> 00:22:01,479 Speaker 1: problem because FATA doesn't run Gaza. It only runs the 369 00:22:01,520 --> 00:22:05,639 Speaker 1: West Bank, it only runs basically half of Palestine, and 370 00:22:05,760 --> 00:22:09,919 Speaker 1: even there it is deeply unpopular because it has a 371 00:22:09,960 --> 00:22:15,199 Speaker 1: reputation pretty well deserved for corruption, cronyism, you know, the 372 00:22:15,280 --> 00:22:18,280 Speaker 1: usual stuff that sets in if a government hasn't had 373 00:22:18,560 --> 00:22:21,240 Speaker 1: free and fair elections for a decade or two. And 374 00:22:21,320 --> 00:22:24,719 Speaker 1: of course the Palactine authorities refusing to have elections in 375 00:22:24,760 --> 00:22:27,879 Speaker 1: the West Bank because it knows that if it did, 376 00:22:28,440 --> 00:22:33,640 Speaker 1: Hamas would win. And indeed, when elections were last held 377 00:22:34,000 --> 00:22:39,919 Speaker 1: in Gaza just after Israel pulled out in two thousand 378 00:22:39,960 --> 00:22:42,960 Speaker 1: and five, and elections were held the following year, guess 379 00:22:43,000 --> 00:22:47,120 Speaker 1: who did win Hamas. That's how Hamas took control of Gaza, 380 00:22:47,880 --> 00:22:52,240 Speaker 1: was popularly elected. Now it hasn't allowed any elections since 381 00:22:52,240 --> 00:22:56,679 Speaker 1: then because it is a extremist terrorist organization, but it's 382 00:22:56,720 --> 00:22:58,960 Speaker 1: still very popular. And there's a report in the front 383 00:22:58,960 --> 00:23:03,000 Speaker 1: page of the Australian just this week that shows around 384 00:23:03,119 --> 00:23:06,600 Speaker 1: sixty percent of Palestinians in both the West Bank and 385 00:23:06,800 --> 00:23:13,560 Speaker 1: Gaza support Hamas sixty percent. Now, how much of that 386 00:23:13,680 --> 00:23:16,919 Speaker 1: is reliable? How you do polling in rubbilized areas where 387 00:23:17,440 --> 00:23:21,320 Speaker 1: you know people have lost their homes, where people are homeless. 388 00:23:21,720 --> 00:23:24,119 Speaker 1: You know, I think that's probably more reflective of the 389 00:23:24,160 --> 00:23:27,919 Speaker 1: situation before October seventh, twenty twenty three. But certainly it 390 00:23:27,960 --> 00:23:31,119 Speaker 1: was well known in Israel. I was there I met 391 00:23:31,160 --> 00:23:35,640 Speaker 1: the Prime Minister of the Palestinian Authority, It was well 392 00:23:35,680 --> 00:23:40,040 Speaker 1: known that Hamas was way more popular than the guys 393 00:23:40,119 --> 00:23:45,600 Speaker 1: that Albanezi extracted all these conditions from, extracted these deals from. 394 00:23:45,840 --> 00:23:48,800 Speaker 1: So one of the conditions is that Hamas has no 395 00:23:48,920 --> 00:23:54,280 Speaker 1: role in any future government of Palestine. And another condition 396 00:23:54,480 --> 00:23:59,719 Speaker 1: is that they have to have a general election. So 397 00:24:00,040 --> 00:24:01,920 Speaker 1: does that work if a mass is the most popular 398 00:24:01,960 --> 00:24:05,159 Speaker 1: party and the party that the people voted for it 399 00:24:05,240 --> 00:24:07,720 Speaker 1: the last general election. So you have a general election, 400 00:24:08,200 --> 00:24:10,560 Speaker 1: but you're not allowed vote for the party that the 401 00:24:10,600 --> 00:24:14,560 Speaker 1: majority actually wants to be the government. So that's the 402 00:24:14,600 --> 00:24:17,800 Speaker 1: first catch twenty two that this deal kind of runs 403 00:24:17,800 --> 00:24:20,480 Speaker 1: into it. And again this is why even if it 404 00:24:20,520 --> 00:24:23,680 Speaker 1: got through the UN it would almost certainly fall over 405 00:24:23,800 --> 00:24:28,840 Speaker 1: at the first hurdle. But does this actually create an 406 00:24:28,920 --> 00:24:32,280 Speaker 1: incentive for people to vote? Dare I say it the 407 00:24:32,359 --> 00:24:36,359 Speaker 1: right way? So it also sends a message. And again 408 00:24:36,400 --> 00:24:40,760 Speaker 1: this is just a message how in what context this 409 00:24:40,840 --> 00:24:43,880 Speaker 1: election could possibly play out in the real world as 410 00:24:43,960 --> 00:24:47,920 Speaker 1: just another question. But it does say to the people 411 00:24:47,920 --> 00:24:52,560 Speaker 1: of Paliston and said, right, if you stop supporting, if 412 00:24:52,600 --> 00:24:56,760 Speaker 1: you stop electing, stop voting for extremist organizations, if you 413 00:24:56,800 --> 00:25:00,760 Speaker 1: stop voting for hamas a listed terror organization, then you 414 00:25:00,800 --> 00:25:03,840 Speaker 1: get your statehood. So the way to get statehood is 415 00:25:03,840 --> 00:25:06,680 Speaker 1: not to be more extreme, but to be less extreme. 416 00:25:07,320 --> 00:25:10,879 Speaker 1: So again that sends another message. You know, these conditions 417 00:25:11,080 --> 00:25:14,080 Speaker 1: cannot be met. They cannot be met by the Palestinian 418 00:25:14,080 --> 00:25:16,280 Speaker 1: authority because it simply does not have the power. It 419 00:25:16,320 --> 00:25:19,040 Speaker 1: is not popular where it actually holds onto power and 420 00:25:19,080 --> 00:25:22,000 Speaker 1: is refusing to hold elections, let alone in Gaza where 421 00:25:22,000 --> 00:25:27,960 Speaker 1: it has no authority whatsoever, no governmental administry's role. But 422 00:25:28,080 --> 00:25:31,480 Speaker 1: it does send a message to the people of Palestine 423 00:25:31,480 --> 00:25:37,520 Speaker 1: that the path to statehood is through being more moderate 424 00:25:37,920 --> 00:25:43,919 Speaker 1: and going for more moderate leaders rather than more extreme ones. 425 00:25:45,119 --> 00:25:47,560 Speaker 1: And then, of course, so that could be a good thing. 426 00:25:47,800 --> 00:25:50,119 Speaker 1: And then people say, well, why haven't you called for 427 00:25:50,160 --> 00:25:54,879 Speaker 1: the release of the hostages. Well, of course, and again 428 00:25:54,920 --> 00:26:00,600 Speaker 1: even though Canada, when it supported Palestinians recognition, it said 429 00:26:00,640 --> 00:26:03,200 Speaker 1: and another condition is you have to release the hostages. 430 00:26:04,640 --> 00:26:08,080 Speaker 1: But the people they're doing the deal with, the people 431 00:26:08,119 --> 00:26:11,560 Speaker 1: they're recognizing, the people they're giving the authority to, are 432 00:26:11,600 --> 00:26:16,600 Speaker 1: you either Palestinian authority? They don't have the hostages. The 433 00:26:16,600 --> 00:26:20,800 Speaker 1: people who have the hostages, the people who these countries 434 00:26:20,840 --> 00:26:23,639 Speaker 1: are saying can have no role, can have no power 435 00:26:24,440 --> 00:26:28,320 Speaker 1: whatsoever in any future Palestinian state. So how can you 436 00:26:28,400 --> 00:26:32,960 Speaker 1: also say that releasing the hostages is part of that deal? 437 00:26:33,000 --> 00:26:36,120 Speaker 1: And that's another one of those funny kind of non 438 00:26:36,160 --> 00:26:39,440 Speaker 1: sequiturs in these conditions. And it's amazing that you've got 439 00:26:39,560 --> 00:26:44,960 Speaker 1: you know, heads of government, nations, armies of diplomats making 440 00:26:44,960 --> 00:26:48,040 Speaker 1: these demands, making these announcements that fall over it the 441 00:26:48,080 --> 00:26:54,359 Speaker 1: first kind of logical hurdle, how do you how do 442 00:26:54,400 --> 00:27:00,159 Speaker 1: you demand someone do something who isn't actually party to 443 00:27:00,280 --> 00:27:03,080 Speaker 1: the deal that you are striking to the negotiations. It's 444 00:27:03,760 --> 00:27:07,240 Speaker 1: it's like me doing a deal with the Labor Party 445 00:27:07,640 --> 00:27:10,520 Speaker 1: to demand that Malcolm Turnbull doesn't become leader of the 446 00:27:10,560 --> 00:27:17,000 Speaker 1: Liberal Party. So yes, it is fraught, it is messy, 447 00:27:17,080 --> 00:27:20,240 Speaker 1: it will probably never happen, but there are elements of 448 00:27:20,280 --> 00:27:23,840 Speaker 1: it that are just about sending a moral message, sending 449 00:27:23,840 --> 00:27:27,360 Speaker 1: a moral message to Israel to say what you are 450 00:27:27,440 --> 00:27:31,560 Speaker 1: doing is beyond the pale. You are no longer now 451 00:27:32,600 --> 00:27:35,760 Speaker 1: any better I suppose of an international actor than a 452 00:27:35,760 --> 00:27:39,919 Speaker 1: future Palestinian state, and therefore we are going to recognize 453 00:27:39,920 --> 00:27:45,439 Speaker 1: a future Palestinian state because what you're doing deserves a 454 00:27:45,520 --> 00:27:49,399 Speaker 1: counter response that is as emphatic as what you are 455 00:27:49,440 --> 00:27:51,119 Speaker 1: trying to do. So you're trying to take over all 456 00:27:51,160 --> 00:27:54,000 Speaker 1: of Palestine, We're actually going to say no, we're enshrining it. 457 00:27:55,760 --> 00:27:57,760 Speaker 1: And then it also sends a message to the people 458 00:27:57,800 --> 00:28:01,600 Speaker 1: of Palestine that if you vote for Hamas, you don't 459 00:28:01,600 --> 00:28:06,600 Speaker 1: get statehood, not that they're voting anytime soon for anyone anyway, 460 00:28:07,680 --> 00:28:11,360 Speaker 1: but if you embrace more moderate leaders, then you will 461 00:28:11,400 --> 00:28:17,040 Speaker 1: get statehood. So will it happen, probably not. Will it 462 00:28:17,119 --> 00:28:21,399 Speaker 1: work if it does happen, probably not. Let's face it, 463 00:28:21,720 --> 00:28:24,000 Speaker 1: we've tried everything else and that hasn't worked either, So 464 00:28:25,440 --> 00:28:33,479 Speaker 1: let's suck it up and see. So to get in 465 00:28:33,520 --> 00:28:36,320 Speaker 1: the PM's head and find out what a labor government 466 00:28:36,440 --> 00:28:38,480 Speaker 1: is trying to do with this issue, we thought we'd 467 00:28:38,520 --> 00:28:42,200 Speaker 1: bring back friend of the podcast and former Prime Ministerial 468 00:28:42,320 --> 00:28:46,080 Speaker 1: advisor in the Gillard government, Darren Barnett. Welcome to the 469 00:28:46,080 --> 00:28:46,640 Speaker 1: Real Story. 470 00:28:47,120 --> 00:28:49,120 Speaker 2: Thank you, Joe. It's always a pleasure to be here. 471 00:28:49,200 --> 00:28:50,880 Speaker 1: It is always a pleasure to have you and I 472 00:28:50,960 --> 00:28:56,360 Speaker 1: believe you have some breaking news for us on on 473 00:28:56,640 --> 00:28:59,480 Speaker 1: the Prime Minister's decision to recognize the state of Palestine. 474 00:29:00,520 --> 00:29:04,360 Speaker 2: Some might think that there are certain supporters and cheer 475 00:29:04,360 --> 00:29:08,520 Speaker 2: squad members that you would enjoy. I want to say 476 00:29:08,720 --> 00:29:13,160 Speaker 2: I'm with prominent members of the Palestinian and Jewish communities 477 00:29:13,160 --> 00:29:18,680 Speaker 2: in Australia, or your community leaders, religious leaders, social commentators, 478 00:29:19,320 --> 00:29:23,120 Speaker 2: but perhaps perhaps not her mass Oh dear so our 479 00:29:23,160 --> 00:29:25,560 Speaker 2: old pearls are her Mass. I just I'm going to 480 00:29:25,600 --> 00:29:28,840 Speaker 2: read this straight from the Sydney Morning. It's fairly right. 481 00:29:29,240 --> 00:29:32,280 Speaker 1: Fair, right wing red rag. You can't trust. 482 00:29:31,920 --> 00:29:38,360 Speaker 2: That Hamas praises Albanese's courage, claims credit for Palestinian recognition. 483 00:29:38,640 --> 00:29:42,400 Speaker 2: It doesn't get better from there. Listed terrorist group of 484 00:29:42,520 --> 00:29:44,640 Speaker 2: Mass has applauded the albannment. 485 00:29:44,640 --> 00:29:47,520 Speaker 1: It sounds bad, but you call it listed terrorist group 486 00:29:47,560 --> 00:29:49,200 Speaker 1: of Mars? What about? What do you do feel? As 487 00:29:49,200 --> 00:29:52,320 Speaker 1: freedom fighters? He mass just bluddy Sidney body, he ad. 488 00:29:52,360 --> 00:29:53,160 Speaker 1: Those right wing. 489 00:29:53,040 --> 00:29:59,120 Speaker 2: Shock jocks friends of some ha Maas, they've said that, 490 00:30:01,280 --> 00:30:04,840 Speaker 2: rejecting Albaneze's claim that her mass will be quite unquote 491 00:30:05,080 --> 00:30:11,160 Speaker 2: totally opposed. Great Hamas said that it shows political courage, 492 00:30:12,280 --> 00:30:13,680 Speaker 2: and they urged others to follow. 493 00:30:14,080 --> 00:30:15,200 Speaker 1: Oh really, oh great. 494 00:30:15,320 --> 00:30:19,480 Speaker 2: So look, that's not particularly helpful. I think that might 495 00:30:19,520 --> 00:30:22,080 Speaker 2: dominate some headlines for the next twenty four hours or so. 496 00:30:22,440 --> 00:30:25,440 Speaker 2: But god, as we've got through the sort of twenty 497 00:30:25,520 --> 00:30:28,360 Speaker 2: four to forty eight hours since the announcement, the dust 498 00:30:28,400 --> 00:30:30,720 Speaker 2: has settled a little, We've got a bit more clarity 499 00:30:30,880 --> 00:30:33,480 Speaker 2: on what it really means. And to be honest with you, 500 00:30:33,520 --> 00:30:35,440 Speaker 2: I'm not sure that it means it great, do you No? 501 00:30:35,920 --> 00:30:40,320 Speaker 1: I agree with you, and I think it's there to 502 00:30:40,360 --> 00:30:43,360 Speaker 1: sort of obviously send a message, But how it actually 503 00:30:43,400 --> 00:30:46,880 Speaker 1: impacts the situation on the ground, I would say somewhere 504 00:30:46,920 --> 00:30:52,040 Speaker 1: between sweet fa and bugger all. But her mass. Let's 505 00:30:52,040 --> 00:30:55,240 Speaker 1: talk about the situation here because immediately you had Jewish 506 00:30:55,280 --> 00:30:57,800 Speaker 1: groups saying this was complete and ut of betrayal, just 507 00:30:57,840 --> 00:31:01,080 Speaker 1: as Albo was starting to mend fences with them, and 508 00:31:01,720 --> 00:31:04,000 Speaker 1: that was and assuring them that he was on side. 509 00:31:04,280 --> 00:31:05,959 Speaker 1: And of course you've got the activists on the other 510 00:31:05,960 --> 00:31:08,000 Speaker 1: side saying it doesn't go far enough, it's nowhere near enough, 511 00:31:08,000 --> 00:31:09,680 Speaker 1: it's just you know, blah blah blah blah blah. So 512 00:31:10,760 --> 00:31:13,880 Speaker 1: obviously you're always end up pleasing no one sort of 513 00:31:14,760 --> 00:31:16,840 Speaker 1: who's all in on the issue. Do you think this 514 00:31:16,920 --> 00:31:20,800 Speaker 1: plays well with the center though? Do most Australians say yeah, 515 00:31:20,840 --> 00:31:23,160 Speaker 1: fair enough or do they just say I don't care. 516 00:31:23,200 --> 00:31:25,280 Speaker 1: Why are we even talking about this? When's the next 517 00:31:25,360 --> 00:31:25,840 Speaker 1: rate cut? 518 00:31:26,800 --> 00:31:29,840 Speaker 2: I think the Center do care, and they increasingly care. 519 00:31:29,920 --> 00:31:33,160 Speaker 2: And the evidence of that is the volume of people 520 00:31:33,640 --> 00:31:36,200 Speaker 2: who walked across the Harbor Bridge a couple of weekends ago. 521 00:31:37,000 --> 00:31:38,880 Speaker 2: There was probably one hundred thousand pains. I think they 522 00:31:38,920 --> 00:31:39,480 Speaker 2: were the center. 523 00:31:40,480 --> 00:31:43,520 Speaker 1: I think that was every every activist said, if I'm 524 00:31:43,560 --> 00:31:44,200 Speaker 1: gonna mind, if. 525 00:31:44,120 --> 00:31:46,760 Speaker 2: There's another two hundred, if that's three hundred thousand people, 526 00:31:47,040 --> 00:31:49,200 Speaker 2: I don't think there are three hundred thousand rat bags. 527 00:31:49,240 --> 00:31:52,040 Speaker 1: I think there's thousand rat bags. I don't think they're 528 00:31:52,080 --> 00:31:53,880 Speaker 1: rat bags at all, but I think that these are 529 00:31:53,920 --> 00:31:57,440 Speaker 1: people who are already all in on Palestine, and sometimes 530 00:31:57,440 --> 00:31:59,520 Speaker 1: they might sleep in on a Sunday and not go 531 00:31:59,560 --> 00:32:01,520 Speaker 1: to the march. But this time they decided yet I 532 00:32:01,600 --> 00:32:03,240 Speaker 1: was going to do it, and I know that the government, 533 00:32:04,680 --> 00:32:08,120 Speaker 1: I know Albo and the government very very clear, keen 534 00:32:08,240 --> 00:32:12,440 Speaker 1: to make sure this wasn't seen as responding to that protest, 535 00:32:12,480 --> 00:32:15,120 Speaker 1: that it was falling in line with the other. 536 00:32:15,040 --> 00:32:18,680 Speaker 2: Nations who were doing it, UK, France, and also Netnyahu's 537 00:32:18,720 --> 00:32:21,840 Speaker 2: decision that he may put ground troops into Gaza City. 538 00:32:21,840 --> 00:32:27,240 Speaker 2: I think most people find that distasteful. Yeah, and I think, but. 539 00:32:27,280 --> 00:32:28,960 Speaker 1: Look, I think if there was any lingering doubt the 540 00:32:28,960 --> 00:32:33,160 Speaker 1: fact Australia made its decision after that announcement that they 541 00:32:33,160 --> 00:32:35,440 Speaker 1: were going to reoccupy Gaza, I think if there was 542 00:32:35,480 --> 00:32:37,600 Speaker 1: any doubt, I think Albo probably would have done it anyway. 543 00:32:37,600 --> 00:32:39,880 Speaker 1: But if there was any doubt, that decision would have 544 00:32:39,920 --> 00:32:42,120 Speaker 1: been right f you, we're packing. 545 00:32:42,680 --> 00:32:45,680 Speaker 2: I just think there is mainstream consciousness. Obviously, people are 546 00:32:45,720 --> 00:32:48,120 Speaker 2: more concerned by a rate cup, They're concerned by cost 547 00:32:48,200 --> 00:32:51,320 Speaker 2: of living there, concerned by domestic matters, They're probably a 548 00:32:51,400 --> 00:32:54,560 Speaker 2: touch frightened of what Trump is or isn't doing, but 549 00:32:54,600 --> 00:32:56,800 Speaker 2: they're hyper aware of this conflict. 550 00:32:56,840 --> 00:32:57,000 Speaker 1: I know. 551 00:32:57,040 --> 00:32:59,600 Speaker 2: I was on something the other day where someone said, oh, 552 00:32:59,680 --> 00:33:02,520 Speaker 2: what about you know what's happening in Sudan or what's 553 00:33:02,520 --> 00:33:05,440 Speaker 2: happening All of our images on television are of Gaza. 554 00:33:05,800 --> 00:33:10,160 Speaker 2: People are taking those images in I don't think, and 555 00:33:10,200 --> 00:33:12,600 Speaker 2: given that they are probably the best pr outfit in 556 00:33:12,640 --> 00:33:14,880 Speaker 2: the world over the last seventy years, I don't think 557 00:33:14,880 --> 00:33:17,320 Speaker 2: the Israelis have done a great job in trying to 558 00:33:17,360 --> 00:33:23,320 Speaker 2: convince screw every day people. The images are not friendly 559 00:33:23,480 --> 00:33:26,320 Speaker 2: to Israel at this time, and people are responding to that. 560 00:33:26,400 --> 00:33:29,960 Speaker 2: I think they think there's a widespread view that if 561 00:33:30,160 --> 00:33:32,760 Speaker 2: food's not getting through and without trying to say who's 562 00:33:32,760 --> 00:33:37,200 Speaker 2: stopping that, and that kids are starving. If kids are 563 00:33:37,200 --> 00:33:40,640 Speaker 2: starving and food's not getting through and there's still widespread 564 00:33:40,680 --> 00:33:43,120 Speaker 2: bombing and the place looks like it's a World War 565 00:33:43,120 --> 00:33:47,880 Speaker 2: II movie, I think that people would expect the government 566 00:33:47,920 --> 00:33:50,000 Speaker 2: to respond in some way. 567 00:33:50,240 --> 00:33:51,760 Speaker 1: And I think there is a bit of that. Obviously, 568 00:33:52,120 --> 00:33:55,080 Speaker 1: as I was saying before, when you want pick it, 569 00:33:55,080 --> 00:33:57,080 Speaker 1: it kind of doesn't really make much sense, and it 570 00:33:57,120 --> 00:34:00,520 Speaker 1: probably will never happen. But I think there is a 571 00:34:00,600 --> 00:34:02,720 Speaker 1: sense that and this is probably why people did much 572 00:34:02,720 --> 00:34:04,840 Speaker 1: across the Harbor Bridge, even if it makes no difference, 573 00:34:05,240 --> 00:34:08,000 Speaker 1: there is a sense that you have to do something, 574 00:34:08,320 --> 00:34:09,839 Speaker 1: even if it's not going to have it. In fact, 575 00:34:10,000 --> 00:34:12,200 Speaker 1: I think one thing that people would normally be concerned 576 00:34:12,239 --> 00:34:15,720 Speaker 1: about is whether it would harm our relationship with the US. 577 00:34:15,760 --> 00:34:20,239 Speaker 1: But also again I think the massive public sentiment, and 578 00:34:20,280 --> 00:34:22,120 Speaker 1: there's been a couple of big poles that show this 579 00:34:22,520 --> 00:34:25,920 Speaker 1: show that when it comes to you know, Albow versus 580 00:34:26,080 --> 00:34:28,880 Speaker 1: Donald Trump, they are team Albow all the way and 581 00:34:28,920 --> 00:34:33,200 Speaker 1: they don't trust Donald Trump, and they've blamed Donald Trump 582 00:34:33,239 --> 00:34:35,440 Speaker 1: for the fracturing. If there is one of the Australia 583 00:34:35,560 --> 00:34:37,319 Speaker 1: US alliance. 584 00:34:36,800 --> 00:34:40,400 Speaker 2: They do And so ever since we announced the tariffs 585 00:34:40,440 --> 00:34:43,560 Speaker 2: and the share market tanked, the trust in Trump has 586 00:34:43,680 --> 00:34:46,000 Speaker 2: been that's right now, al. 587 00:34:46,080 --> 00:34:48,640 Speaker 1: Standing up to Trump. We're not going to follow America slavery. 588 00:34:49,960 --> 00:34:51,520 Speaker 1: I don't think that hurts him, and then maybe even 589 00:34:51,520 --> 00:34:51,800 Speaker 1: helps you. 590 00:34:51,920 --> 00:34:54,120 Speaker 2: The headlines didn't ask permission. I'm not sure that we 591 00:34:54,120 --> 00:34:57,120 Speaker 2: would ever ask permission, but that kind of strong language 592 00:34:57,560 --> 00:35:00,359 Speaker 2: was helpful to Elbow in the last forty eight hours. Look, 593 00:35:00,440 --> 00:35:03,480 Speaker 2: the problem is that they're threading a needle that doesn't 594 00:35:03,480 --> 00:35:08,600 Speaker 2: really exist. Dealing with the Palestinian authority and there and 595 00:35:08,800 --> 00:35:13,120 Speaker 2: not dealing with her mass entirely misses the point that 596 00:35:13,160 --> 00:35:16,719 Speaker 2: her mass run Gaza, and you might be able to 597 00:35:16,719 --> 00:35:20,719 Speaker 2: do something in the West Bank, but I don't see 598 00:35:20,719 --> 00:35:23,359 Speaker 2: how you get much done in Gaza and coming out 599 00:35:23,360 --> 00:35:25,839 Speaker 2: and saying, oh, well, we do with other countries where 600 00:35:25,920 --> 00:35:27,839 Speaker 2: part of it is not run by the government. Well, 601 00:35:28,480 --> 00:35:32,279 Speaker 2: we're actually creating a state and its borders are undefined. 602 00:35:32,719 --> 00:35:35,759 Speaker 2: We're in a different position of responsibility in terms of 603 00:35:35,800 --> 00:35:39,160 Speaker 2: what we create and what legacy we leave. So I 604 00:35:39,160 --> 00:35:40,640 Speaker 2: don't I think that's false equivalence. 605 00:35:40,680 --> 00:35:41,000 Speaker 1: I don't. 606 00:35:41,480 --> 00:35:43,560 Speaker 2: I just don't buy that argument. I don't think you 607 00:35:43,560 --> 00:35:46,479 Speaker 2: can say, oh, no, we don't have any responsibility for 608 00:35:47,560 --> 00:35:50,520 Speaker 2: those who've been kidnapped because we're not dealing with her mass, 609 00:35:50,520 --> 00:35:53,280 Speaker 2: we're only dealing with the other guys. That doesn't make sense. 610 00:35:53,520 --> 00:35:55,320 Speaker 2: It doesn't matter, It makes no sense whatsoever. 611 00:35:55,360 --> 00:35:59,600 Speaker 1: It's a bit like saying we're going to recognize Australian 612 00:35:59,680 --> 00:36:03,839 Speaker 1: state would by striking a deal with the Jackie Lamby network. Correct. Well, 613 00:36:03,880 --> 00:36:07,719 Speaker 1: that worked in tas Madia. So maybe there's hope for us. All. 614 00:36:09,040 --> 00:36:11,200 Speaker 1: This is obviously something I mean, this is something that 615 00:36:11,239 --> 00:36:15,520 Speaker 1: has been labor policy since forever, but it has also 616 00:36:15,640 --> 00:36:19,879 Speaker 1: been some a decision they've never really wanted to make. 617 00:36:19,920 --> 00:36:22,560 Speaker 1: You have people in the branches, obviously, the activists jumping 618 00:36:22,640 --> 00:36:24,640 Speaker 1: up and down saying, you know, from the river to 619 00:36:24,640 --> 00:36:27,200 Speaker 1: the sea, you got to recognize Palistine And just recently 620 00:36:27,280 --> 00:36:30,279 Speaker 1: the Labor Party's national policy platform was changed to say 621 00:36:30,280 --> 00:36:32,759 Speaker 1: we're going to recognize, but even then it didn't say when, 622 00:36:33,440 --> 00:36:35,640 Speaker 1: didn't have anything about the and that was just a 623 00:36:35,680 --> 00:36:41,480 Speaker 1: sop to get the left to back orcus in boats 624 00:36:41,520 --> 00:36:44,600 Speaker 1: and that's right. So they say, yeah, yeah, and yeah, 625 00:36:44,760 --> 00:36:47,800 Speaker 1: well recognized Palestine. And this is way before October seven, 626 00:36:47,960 --> 00:36:49,880 Speaker 1: and no one knew this was going to happen. And 627 00:36:49,880 --> 00:36:53,480 Speaker 1: then suddenly this sort of thing is sitting there and 628 00:36:53,520 --> 00:36:56,319 Speaker 1: the government. Something that the government sort of threw in 629 00:36:56,360 --> 00:36:59,040 Speaker 1: as a kind of sop to make a problem go away. 630 00:36:59,600 --> 00:37:02,680 Speaker 1: Suddenly it's kind of back in its lap. And usually 631 00:37:02,719 --> 00:37:04,719 Speaker 1: you would ignore the national platform. That's a time on 632 00:37:04,760 --> 00:37:07,200 Speaker 1: a labor tradition, because it is such a wide hot 633 00:37:07,200 --> 00:37:11,200 Speaker 1: issue and people remember this. It's now a hot potato 634 00:37:11,239 --> 00:37:12,640 Speaker 1: that they've got it's been a. 635 00:37:12,640 --> 00:37:16,680 Speaker 2: Cause celeb amongst the left for generations. Mandala was a 636 00:37:16,719 --> 00:37:21,120 Speaker 2: big pro Palestine campaigner and supporter. It was there was 637 00:37:21,160 --> 00:37:24,680 Speaker 2: a time when supporting Palestine and opposing apartheid were part 638 00:37:24,719 --> 00:37:26,640 Speaker 2: of the same people. 639 00:37:29,280 --> 00:37:30,000 Speaker 1: The New Vietnam. 640 00:37:30,200 --> 00:37:34,480 Speaker 2: Yeah, and the labor left and progressives and lefties in 641 00:37:34,520 --> 00:37:37,360 Speaker 2: general have been on this bandwagon for decades. 642 00:37:38,239 --> 00:37:39,040 Speaker 1: I think, right and. 643 00:37:40,920 --> 00:37:42,920 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, whatever, they've been the ones who've kept a 644 00:37:42,960 --> 00:37:44,920 Speaker 2: lid on it. I guess part of it would be 645 00:37:45,000 --> 00:37:48,239 Speaker 2: that numbers in ALP conference are now slightly left. 646 00:37:48,320 --> 00:37:51,640 Speaker 1: And also that all the senior right figures are well. 647 00:37:51,719 --> 00:37:54,000 Speaker 2: The other thing is that there, particularly if you look 648 00:37:54,040 --> 00:37:59,600 Speaker 2: at Sydney, the seats that have got heavy Muslim voting populations, 649 00:38:00,120 --> 00:38:02,960 Speaker 2: like obviously the progressive seats are going to be left, 650 00:38:03,719 --> 00:38:08,759 Speaker 2: but the left, yeah, sure, but the Muslim voting seats 651 00:38:09,239 --> 00:38:13,720 Speaker 2: are held by seenior right wing figures. So suspect Israel 652 00:38:13,920 --> 00:38:16,839 Speaker 2: or correctly are the ones who are most reliant on 653 00:38:17,040 --> 00:38:20,799 Speaker 2: pro Palestine votes. Correct, And that might be part of 654 00:38:20,840 --> 00:38:24,200 Speaker 2: the reason as well, because logically you look at it 655 00:38:24,200 --> 00:38:26,600 Speaker 2: and you why would they Why would they do that? 656 00:38:26,640 --> 00:38:29,000 Speaker 2: Because it's not going to It's a cosmetic thing. In 657 00:38:29,040 --> 00:38:33,160 Speaker 2: some ways, particularly when you consider the next round of 658 00:38:33,200 --> 00:38:40,840 Speaker 2: the UN there's five UN Security Council members. Historically you 659 00:38:40,920 --> 00:38:43,839 Speaker 2: had two who supported you, had Russia and China. Now 660 00:38:43,920 --> 00:38:46,880 Speaker 2: you might, under some circumstances have the UK and France. 661 00:38:47,440 --> 00:38:49,480 Speaker 2: America is not going to change its vote, and if 662 00:38:49,520 --> 00:38:52,680 Speaker 2: America Vito's, it doesn't progress to a full vote to 663 00:38:52,719 --> 00:38:55,680 Speaker 2: the floor. So a man, it requires two thirds. I 664 00:38:55,719 --> 00:38:59,280 Speaker 2: don't know what the numbers are, but thirds, but America. 665 00:39:01,080 --> 00:39:05,080 Speaker 2: So the whole thing is kind of posturing in some ways, 666 00:39:06,080 --> 00:39:09,480 Speaker 2: and symbolic things matter. I'm not saying that making a 667 00:39:09,520 --> 00:39:11,799 Speaker 2: stand as a government or as a nation doesn't matter. 668 00:39:11,920 --> 00:39:12,319 Speaker 1: It does. 669 00:39:12,800 --> 00:39:16,880 Speaker 2: But when you look at why, I think those stacks 670 00:39:16,880 --> 00:39:19,759 Speaker 2: in certain seats probably explained part of the enthusiasm. 671 00:39:19,960 --> 00:39:22,279 Speaker 1: Yeah, and I think if we are going to, you know, 672 00:39:22,640 --> 00:39:24,799 Speaker 1: give the government the benefit of doubt and say, look, 673 00:39:24,840 --> 00:39:27,000 Speaker 1: they are doing this for high minded reason, I think 674 00:39:27,000 --> 00:39:29,160 Speaker 1: there is that genuine stuff as well, Like I. 675 00:39:29,120 --> 00:39:31,920 Speaker 2: Know both two state solution guys and so as. 676 00:39:31,880 --> 00:39:34,560 Speaker 1: The government and and Elbow I can tell you is 677 00:39:34,600 --> 00:39:37,760 Speaker 1: personally he just you know, he really does believe this stuff. 678 00:39:38,320 --> 00:39:41,160 Speaker 1: But that doesn't mean there's not also political realities that 679 00:39:41,200 --> 00:39:42,319 Speaker 1: he has to deal with and he is very good 680 00:39:42,320 --> 00:39:43,839 Speaker 1: at dealing with them as well. So both those things 681 00:39:43,880 --> 00:39:48,440 Speaker 1: can be true. But I think the two possible benefits, 682 00:39:48,440 --> 00:39:52,480 Speaker 1: and it's really only one benefit. But the first, which 683 00:39:52,520 --> 00:39:56,279 Speaker 1: is really just jumping up and down and screaming at 684 00:39:56,320 --> 00:39:58,799 Speaker 1: you know, shaking your fist at a cloud, is that 685 00:39:58,880 --> 00:40:01,960 Speaker 1: it sends a message to Israel, particularly after it said 686 00:40:01,960 --> 00:40:04,440 Speaker 1: it's going to reoccupy Gaza and says, you know what, fine, 687 00:40:04,920 --> 00:40:07,120 Speaker 1: you do that you go to deaf Con three, where 688 00:40:07,120 --> 00:40:10,640 Speaker 1: you go to deaf Con three Palestine's estate that you've. 689 00:40:10,480 --> 00:40:14,000 Speaker 2: Just we're sending a message. Therefore, that's right, you do 690 00:40:14,040 --> 00:40:15,320 Speaker 2: starting so there. 691 00:40:16,480 --> 00:40:19,000 Speaker 1: That's right. The more extreme you are, the more we 692 00:40:19,080 --> 00:40:23,200 Speaker 1: you are going to support Palestine and advance Palestinian statehood. 693 00:40:23,280 --> 00:40:24,799 Speaker 1: So you show him that he's actually going in the 694 00:40:24,800 --> 00:40:28,080 Speaker 1: wrong direction. Not that he'll care, but whatever. And the 695 00:40:28,120 --> 00:40:30,560 Speaker 1: other thing is doing the same thing to the Palestinian people. 696 00:40:30,600 --> 00:40:33,200 Speaker 1: So you say, look, if you this is the other 697 00:40:33,239 --> 00:40:35,759 Speaker 1: absurdity you're alluding to saying, oh, we're going to have 698 00:40:35,840 --> 00:40:37,520 Speaker 1: general elections, but you can't vote for the people you 699 00:40:37,600 --> 00:40:38,520 Speaker 1: voted for last time. 700 00:40:39,440 --> 00:40:41,440 Speaker 2: And they also run the joint and they also run 701 00:40:41,480 --> 00:40:44,120 Speaker 2: the joint and rolling out the ballot butt and the 702 00:40:44,160 --> 00:40:48,080 Speaker 2: fact that dare I say a listed terrorist group. That's right, 703 00:40:48,160 --> 00:40:52,640 Speaker 2: there's there might be, and fair correctly, they might put 704 00:40:52,680 --> 00:40:55,080 Speaker 2: some pressure on that's right in terms of which way 705 00:40:55,120 --> 00:40:57,560 Speaker 2: you vote. Might be a bit mcgabies, that's right. 706 00:40:57,560 --> 00:41:01,520 Speaker 1: But let's say, let's say in a ridiculously ideal world 707 00:41:01,680 --> 00:41:06,879 Speaker 1: where Palestine is recognized, the Palestinian authority is a transitory 708 00:41:06,920 --> 00:41:09,120 Speaker 1: body that knows it's going to disappear into the ether, 709 00:41:09,920 --> 00:41:14,279 Speaker 1: and you have the UN peacekeepers organizing an election, and 710 00:41:14,719 --> 00:41:18,919 Speaker 1: basically the international community says the only way you get 711 00:41:18,960 --> 00:41:22,719 Speaker 1: statehood is not voting for Hamas, is not voting for extremists. 712 00:41:22,760 --> 00:41:25,759 Speaker 1: You vote in a moderate way, you get your statehood. 713 00:41:25,840 --> 00:41:28,440 Speaker 1: You keep voting for terrorists, you don't, do you think 714 00:41:28,440 --> 00:41:29,480 Speaker 1: that has any potential. 715 00:41:29,840 --> 00:41:31,960 Speaker 2: Let's see, I'd lose a limb save a life kind 716 00:41:31,960 --> 00:41:36,959 Speaker 2: of argument, and that's being flippant, but you, I think 717 00:41:37,040 --> 00:41:39,600 Speaker 2: sometimes there has to be a greater good and if 718 00:41:39,640 --> 00:41:44,799 Speaker 2: you have an absolute impass, which we currently do, then 719 00:41:44,840 --> 00:41:47,399 Speaker 2: you've got to try something a little bit different. There's 720 00:41:47,400 --> 00:41:49,239 Speaker 2: a couple of little interesting things. 721 00:41:49,920 --> 00:41:53,280 Speaker 1: Just so everyone knows, Darren wasn't here for my initial monologue, 722 00:41:53,280 --> 00:41:55,200 Speaker 1: and he's just said the exact same thing that I said. 723 00:41:55,239 --> 00:41:58,360 Speaker 1: So it's proves that it's absolutely true. Great minds think alike, 724 00:41:58,400 --> 00:42:01,520 Speaker 1: but go on, So I'll be back next week. The 725 00:42:01,880 --> 00:42:03,320 Speaker 1: definitely a friend of the podcast. 726 00:42:04,160 --> 00:42:08,640 Speaker 2: Look, but it's not straightforward either. When you consider even 727 00:42:08,800 --> 00:42:11,759 Speaker 2: the West Bank, there's the best part of half a 728 00:42:11,760 --> 00:42:17,680 Speaker 2: million Jewish residents and mixes, settlers and others. There's two 729 00:42:17,719 --> 00:42:23,920 Speaker 2: hundred and fifty thousand Jews inside East Jerusalem trying to 730 00:42:24,000 --> 00:42:28,839 Speaker 2: unscramble the egg in that part of the world. It's 731 00:42:28,840 --> 00:42:32,480 Speaker 2: like we're talking about guards are being impossible, the other 732 00:42:32,560 --> 00:42:35,239 Speaker 2: part of the equation. That's not straightforward either. 733 00:42:35,400 --> 00:42:37,839 Speaker 1: So this is why the Jewish settlers have been such 734 00:42:38,200 --> 00:42:42,800 Speaker 1: utter pains in the ass, because they are literally a 735 00:42:42,840 --> 00:42:45,799 Speaker 1: physical impediment to the peace process, because you can't draw 736 00:42:45,800 --> 00:42:49,239 Speaker 1: a border without having these numpties on the wrong side 737 00:42:49,239 --> 00:42:54,040 Speaker 1: of it. They're like creating partition in Yeah, justly they are, 738 00:42:54,080 --> 00:42:55,160 Speaker 1: but doing it deliberately. 739 00:42:55,360 --> 00:42:59,720 Speaker 2: But if you're in their position, then if everyone around 740 00:42:59,760 --> 00:43:03,120 Speaker 2: you is in a perpetual state of war, pretty much 741 00:43:03,160 --> 00:43:05,719 Speaker 2: no one wants you to exist. In reality, they might 742 00:43:05,800 --> 00:43:11,160 Speaker 2: occasionally merely mouthsaale no resupport Israel. If I was your 743 00:43:11,200 --> 00:43:14,440 Speaker 2: average Jewish settler, I'd be a bit uneasy, and I'd 744 00:43:14,480 --> 00:43:18,279 Speaker 2: be fairly interested in finding and keeping territory too. 745 00:43:18,280 --> 00:43:20,560 Speaker 1: That's why it settled in Israel instead of Palestine. Then 746 00:43:20,600 --> 00:43:22,080 Speaker 1: if you're a risk averse. 747 00:43:21,840 --> 00:43:24,839 Speaker 2: But yeah, but once then we hit that same question 748 00:43:24,920 --> 00:43:27,920 Speaker 2: again of where is Israel and where is Palestine exactly? 749 00:43:28,000 --> 00:43:32,279 Speaker 2: And so these are really difficult questions there what two 750 00:43:32,320 --> 00:43:34,440 Speaker 2: thousand years or thereabouts been going for. 751 00:43:34,719 --> 00:43:38,240 Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly. Yeah, and then Jerusalem eas Jerusalem is Jerusalem, 752 00:43:38,320 --> 00:43:40,640 Speaker 1: like it's the bit with all the big stuff, you know, 753 00:43:40,760 --> 00:43:42,480 Speaker 1: the dime of the rock and the whaling wall and 754 00:43:42,480 --> 00:43:45,560 Speaker 1: all that stuff that would have to be internationally run. 755 00:43:45,680 --> 00:43:47,760 Speaker 1: I would imagine there was a proposal that would actually 756 00:43:47,760 --> 00:43:49,880 Speaker 1: become an international city, which I really like. So there 757 00:43:49,880 --> 00:43:53,800 Speaker 1: would be which the Old City kind of is anyway, 758 00:43:53,800 --> 00:43:56,560 Speaker 1: the Orthodoxes and the Muslims of the Jews, or have 759 00:43:56,600 --> 00:43:58,520 Speaker 1: this weird deal where someone's got a pair of keys 760 00:43:58,560 --> 00:44:00,680 Speaker 1: to the Church of the Holy separate and someone's got 761 00:44:00,680 --> 00:44:03,560 Speaker 1: a bit. It's nuts. It's a nuts city. But but 762 00:44:03,600 --> 00:44:05,560 Speaker 1: you could have that internationally run. Then you have broadly 763 00:44:05,600 --> 00:44:08,200 Speaker 1: basically the West Bank and Gaza we kind of know 764 00:44:08,239 --> 00:44:09,280 Speaker 1: that's Palestine. 765 00:44:09,800 --> 00:44:13,040 Speaker 2: I think Trump version one wanted to have Jerusalem as 766 00:44:13,080 --> 00:44:16,240 Speaker 2: the capital of Israel, didn't he. And that's when Scott 767 00:44:16,280 --> 00:44:19,160 Speaker 2: Morrison and yeah, yeah, yeah no it went worth by election. 768 00:44:19,280 --> 00:44:20,839 Speaker 2: They decided they were going to go for. 769 00:44:21,040 --> 00:44:25,160 Speaker 1: No under no, no, it is under under now how 770 00:44:25,160 --> 00:44:27,320 Speaker 1: it is the couple I moved from television to jerusale. 771 00:44:27,360 --> 00:44:30,080 Speaker 2: But in terms of international support, like trying to wind 772 00:44:30,120 --> 00:44:33,799 Speaker 2: that back to become an international city once again, it's 773 00:44:33,840 --> 00:44:34,640 Speaker 2: not straightforward. 774 00:44:34,680 --> 00:44:37,680 Speaker 1: The capital could be in West Jerusalem and the East Jerusalem. 775 00:44:37,680 --> 00:44:39,239 Speaker 1: So you can have the nest I think the nest 776 00:44:39,239 --> 00:44:41,440 Speaker 1: it is in West Jerusalem, and so you could have 777 00:44:41,440 --> 00:44:44,360 Speaker 1: the Parliament, the executive actually in undisputed kind of all 778 00:44:44,520 --> 00:44:48,400 Speaker 1: everything's disputed Israeli territory. And then have all the old bits, 779 00:44:48,400 --> 00:44:50,520 Speaker 1: all the fun bits that all the tourists go to. 780 00:44:50,800 --> 00:44:54,160 Speaker 1: Have that sort of internationally run by a committee of 781 00:44:55,320 --> 00:44:55,799 Speaker 1: I don't know. 782 00:44:56,880 --> 00:45:02,160 Speaker 3: Sort of indistinct ethnicity, just a panel of don'tancy your 783 00:45:02,200 --> 00:45:11,319 Speaker 3: page panel, that's a panel of automatons. It's complicated, and 784 00:45:11,400 --> 00:45:13,640 Speaker 3: that is all we have time for this week. 785 00:45:14,200 --> 00:45:15,960 Speaker 1: Thank you so much for joining us on the real 786 00:45:16,040 --> 00:45:18,680 Speaker 1: story as we once more, solve the Middle East peace 787 00:45:18,719 --> 00:45:23,120 Speaker 1: crisis and avoid World War III. You can slide into 788 00:45:23,160 --> 00:45:25,920 Speaker 1: my dms on the instag as Mike did at Joe Underscore. 789 00:45:26,040 --> 00:45:29,239 Speaker 1: Hildebrand is the handle, and you can also send us 790 00:45:29,239 --> 00:45:32,520 Speaker 1: an email the Real story at Nova Podcasts dot com 791 00:45:32,560 --> 00:45:35,279 Speaker 1: dot au. Of course, drop us a line, leave us 792 00:45:35,320 --> 00:45:40,800 Speaker 1: a review or a rating of our incredibly high rating score. 793 00:45:41,920 --> 00:45:44,200 Speaker 1: And you can all, of course reading in the news 794 00:45:44,239 --> 00:45:47,239 Speaker 1: court papers every Monday and Saturday, even I'm sick of myself, 795 00:45:47,239 --> 00:45:48,839 Speaker 1: Why would you want to do that? Just come back 796 00:45:48,880 --> 00:45:52,400 Speaker 1: next week, do it all again. Till then, bye bye