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Speaker 1: Welcome to Fear and Greed Q and A, where we

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Speaker 1: ask and answer questions about business, investing, economics, politics and more.

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Speaker 1: I'm Michael Thompson and good morning Adam Lang. Hello Michael,

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Speaker 1: and good morning to you Natalie McDonald.

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Speaker 2: Hello.

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Speaker 1: Today we are delving into the question of what do

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Speaker 1: we really value at work? Because we had two new

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Speaker 1: reports this week and they came out pretty much on

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Speaker 1: Monday and Tuesday of this week, so they were in

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Speaker 1: very close proximity. There we go, Thank you, Adam. We

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Speaker 1: had one from Hatch and one from seekh all right,

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Speaker 1: and they both showed how Australians are feeling about work,

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Speaker 1: and in one case it showed that Australians are torn

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Speaker 1: basically between wanting balanced security and growth and then the

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Speaker 1: rising pressure of money. At the same time, we got

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Speaker 1: younger workers who were leaning into leaning into side hustles

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Speaker 1: and hybrid working models, older workers saying that no pay

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Speaker 1: packet is going to be worth going back into the

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Speaker 1: office full time. So as we're going I was going

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Speaker 1: through this, now, how do you make sense of this?

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Speaker 1: And it feels like it is such a subjective thing

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Speaker 1: as to what you value at work. So I wanted

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Speaker 1: to find out what you both value at work? Is

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Speaker 1: it security? Is it money? Is it balance? Is it growth? Opportunities?

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Speaker 1: The Secret Report says that sixty five percent of workers

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Speaker 1: choose work life balance over salary, but only thirty six

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Speaker 1: percent actually feel financially secure. Adam, if I was to

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Speaker 1: start with you, is there an element do you think

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Speaker 1: that where almost financial insecurity just kind of tips people

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Speaker 1: back towards going You know what, I have a basic need,

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Speaker 1: which is I need to bring money into my household.

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Speaker 1: I will forego balance, I will forego all of those

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Speaker 1: other perks and I just need money.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, there is, And look, I think it starts with

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Speaker 2: how do you want your life to be and what

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Speaker 2: you want to be able to afford, and you obviously

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Speaker 2: work to the maximum of your capabilities and get the

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Speaker 2: most value for it. I think it starts at money.

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Speaker 2: There's an element of safety in that, and I don't

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Speaker 2: think that's crude. I think it's honest. Everything else that

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Speaker 2: you mentioned are factors. Do I feel welcome here, productive? Here?

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Speaker 2: Can I do good work? Am I in a great team?

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Speaker 2: They all matter, But I think the first step to

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Speaker 2: life balance is having the security of income.

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Speaker 1: Natalie, you talk to a lot of people. You have

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Speaker 1: another business where you have a lot of contact with

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Speaker 1: people and talk about kind of how they do their

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Speaker 1: jobs and how they kind of present their own their

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Speaker 1: lives publicly as well. Are you finding that balance is

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Speaker 1: almost seen as a non negotiable even if people are

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Speaker 1: going to be cost bear a cost financially. Is there

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Speaker 1: really this big shift pushed towards having this work life

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Speaker 1: balance and then that is kind of feeding into what

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Speaker 1: people are demonstrating about themselves publicly.

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Speaker 3: I think it's really interesting. I think organizations need to

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Speaker 3: be creating environments where employees can bring their whole sales

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Speaker 3: to work. But in order to do that, that's based

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Speaker 3: on a couple of different things. That is based on

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Speaker 3: the values of the organization aligning. That is based on

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Speaker 3: the culture and the supportive environment that's being created. It's

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Speaker 3: also based on being remunerated fairly. To your point, Adam,

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Speaker 3: if you are really worried about how you're going to

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Speaker 3: be making rent, how you're going to be paying childcare,

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Speaker 3: you're not concentrating on the job at hand. You're not

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Speaker 3: able to show up as your whole self because you've

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Speaker 3: got half your mind is somewhere else. Wandering and worrying

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Speaker 3: about how you're going to be doing those things. As

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Speaker 3: far as then that feeds into work life balance, I

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Speaker 3: do think in a post COVID environment, and yes, I

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Speaker 3: know we've got A and Z sending staffers back to

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Speaker 3: work and all of that type of thing, But work

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Speaker 3: life balance is just a fact of business now. It

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Speaker 3: looks different across different industries and I think that's something

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Speaker 3: that organizations are still struggling with At an enterprise level.

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Speaker 3: You can't talk to a store assistant at Woolworths about

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Speaker 3: being able to work from home because their job is

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Speaker 3: to be in a physical store. So what can you

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Speaker 3: offer that offers a different level of work life balance?

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Speaker 3: And I think we have to look at it through

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Speaker 3: that lens as well, that for an office worker, for

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Speaker 3: podcast hosts, for frontline staff in in hospitals, what work

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Speaker 3: life balance actually looks like. And we're clearly still in

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Speaker 3: a real push pull environment when it comes to that.

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Speaker 1: Where do you think age and kind of demographics come

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Speaker 1: into this then as well? Because different people at different

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Speaker 1: stages of their careers are going to have different priorities,

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Speaker 1: right And some of the research, the one from Hatch

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Speaker 1: found that growth is a bigger priority for young Australians

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Speaker 1: than salary. I suppose that makes sense, right that if

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Speaker 1: you are at the beginning of your career, you are

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Speaker 1: going to not necessarily will be accepting to some extent

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Speaker 1: that you're going to be paid list, but you are

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Speaker 1: going to want the opportunity to progress your career.

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Speaker 3: But I think even if we take growth through a

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Speaker 3: slightly different lens as well, and if we look at

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Speaker 3: what are we learning, like, what are we actually learning

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Speaker 3: from this role? How is this future proofing us? How

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Speaker 3: is this positioning us for an industry change or even

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Speaker 3: upward growth, you know, not just sort of those sideways movements.

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Speaker 3: I think you know jen Z obviously entering into the workplace,

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Speaker 3: that that's a priority for them. I think that mid

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Speaker 3: career professionals this is something that they need to be

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Speaker 3: looking at as well. You see even a lot of

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Speaker 3: people who are considering becoming parents, or who already are parents,

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Speaker 3: they're staying in roles where they're sort of stagnating. They're

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Speaker 3: maybe not learning as much, but they need to do

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Speaker 3: it for that flexibility they know they can work from

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Speaker 3: home a couple of days a week, or for that

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Speaker 3: financial security as well, but I think we are going

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Speaker 3: to hit more of an inflection point where learning you know,

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Speaker 3: are you the smartest person in the room, in which

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Speaker 3: case you need to find a different room to be in.

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Speaker 1: Adam you one of your many roles is you are

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Speaker 1: in a executive coach. You speak with a lot of

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Speaker 1: senior people within organizations. How are they seeing this the

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Speaker 1: conflicting demands and the expectations of people of all ages

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Speaker 1: that some are there for the salary, some are there

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Speaker 1: for the growth opportunities, some are wanting the balance, and

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Speaker 1: some want the flexibility to work from home. How on

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Speaker 1: earth does a senior person within an organization try and

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Speaker 1: kind of cater to everyone while still keeping their business

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Speaker 1: productive and making money.

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Speaker 2: There's a real mix of situations but some broad themes.

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Speaker 2: So building on what you said, Artie about different types

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Speaker 2: of roles and where you need to be situationally and geographically.

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Speaker 2: But I think everyone that I work with as an

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Speaker 2: executive coach probably shares a similar view that it's about

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Speaker 2: maximizing income. Like whether man, woman, whatever age they are,

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Speaker 2: whatever industry they in, I think they broadly accept that

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Speaker 2: our job as earn is to maximize whatever return we

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Speaker 2: can get in the most enjoyable and productive way. So

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Speaker 2: there's obviously there's qualifications around that. But people who say, hey,

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Speaker 2: just do what you love, Yeah, that can be the case.

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Speaker 2: But in terms of overall life balance and if you

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Speaker 2: want to have spare time, be fit, sleep well, raise

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Speaker 2: a family, you should maximize your income right and go

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Speaker 2: for it. And so what's going to help you do that?

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Speaker 2: And yes, it might be a passion, but more often

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Speaker 2: than not, it's just the thing that you're really good

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Speaker 2: at and the market values. So do that because there's

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Speaker 2: a lot of joy that comes from that and earning

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Speaker 2: productively in that space. So I would say that that's

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Speaker 2: probably the broadest theme I could say from on behalf

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Speaker 2: of the people that I work with as a coach

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Speaker 2: is that maximize your value. It's a good thing.

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Speaker 1: What do you think then, about the rise of side

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Speaker 1: hustles because one of the other one of the other

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Speaker 1: research points out of these two reports was that eighteen

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Speaker 1: ten young Australians either already have a side hustle or

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Speaker 1: want to have one. Is this do you think is

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Speaker 1: it entrepreneurial energy or is it just the need in

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Speaker 1: a slightly shaky economy where jobs are changing where AI

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Speaker 1: is coming and there is no real job security long

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Speaker 1: term in almost any industry, right, Are people just taking

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Speaker 1: their future into their own hands?

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Speaker 3: I think it's a bit of both. I think that

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Speaker 3: people are I think that people are multifaceted. And to

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Speaker 3: build on the point that Adam made, you know, I

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Speaker 3: really strongly think about the work that you want to

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Speaker 3: do and the work that you have to do, and

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Speaker 3: if you can find something that's at the intersection of that, great,

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Speaker 3: But so many, I mean, the three of us in

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Speaker 3: this room are building duel careers and the number of times,

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Speaker 3: at least exactly, but the number of people I've been

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Speaker 3: talking to about portfolio careers, and like you said, Michael,

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Speaker 3: as the stats are showing a period of economic insecurity,

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Speaker 3: portfolio careers and deriving salary and happiness from different places,

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Speaker 3: different sources is just what employment in twenty twenty five

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Speaker 3: and beyond kind of looks like.

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Speaker 2: I totally agree. I think it's actually wonderful, you know,

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Speaker 2: the traditional model. As a mature person, Michael fifty six

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Speaker 2: years of age, I grew up in a realm where

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Speaker 2: most people had long term careers a job. I love

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Speaker 2: the fact that we are all and other people are

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Speaker 2: doing the same is exploring different things that they can

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Speaker 2: do entrepreneurially. Right, So have a go, that great old

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Speaker 2: Australian expression of have a go, you know. I think

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Speaker 2: it is such an encouraging environment for that, for people

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Speaker 2: to have a go and explore different things, test and learn.

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Speaker 2: I think there's also been a diminishing to our credit

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Speaker 2: of shame around failure, so you don't have to fail

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Speaker 2: and walk away and hide yourself. It's okay, right, It's

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Speaker 2: okay to have a go and not win and have

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Speaker 2: another go. I think we're getting better at encouraging that

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Speaker 2: rather than the old tall poppy syndrome.

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Speaker 1: I saw a stat the other day that said gen

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Speaker 1: z throughout their lives will have between fifteen and seventeen

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Speaker 1: different jobs. Is that all across five to six different careers,

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Speaker 1: which is so interesting the idea that you will not

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Speaker 1: just have different jobs, but you'll actually have different careers

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Speaker 1: where you go into entirely different areas potentially, And to me,

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Speaker 1: that's really quite exciting.

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Speaker 3: It's because being destigmatized and the fact that we do

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Speaker 3: see younger generations particularly they are in roles for a

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Speaker 3: much much shorter time than you ten fifteen years ago

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Speaker 3: would have been would have been considered. And the fact

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Speaker 3: that you can go into something and you can learn

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Speaker 3: what you need to from it and walk away and

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Speaker 3: not having been a failure but you have learnt from it.

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Speaker 3: You don't always need to know with your next role

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Speaker 3: what it is that you want to do. But sometimes

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Speaker 3: it's identifying, oh, this didn't work, but this did. Okay,

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Speaker 3: I'll lean more into that.

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Speaker 1: We are running out of time, and I want to

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Speaker 1: put one question to both of you, right, And this

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Speaker 1: comes back to the Sikh research and it found that

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Speaker 1: Australians would rather get more annual leave, reduced hours, or

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Speaker 1: flexible rosters than things like company cars and some of

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Speaker 1: those traditional perks and benefits of it. So the question

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Speaker 1: then is if you were designing the ultimate package for

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Speaker 1: you today, what would it look like? What do you

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Speaker 1: value in work? And Natalie, I'll be asking you the

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Speaker 1: same thing in a moment.

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Speaker 2: Cash Yeah, I mean, look, there's also this kind of

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Speaker 2: warping I think of perks, which is fringe benefits tax,

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Speaker 2: which I think is holding our country back. But aside

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Speaker 2: from my not well versed any times on this, anytime

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Speaker 2: Adam wanders near an open microphone there. He sees it

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Speaker 2: as an opportunity for reform, to encourage reform of the

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Speaker 2: tax system in Australia, which I encourage this.

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Speaker 3: Well, when you.

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Speaker 2: See obstacles that we keep putting in our way of success,

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Speaker 2: I do get irritated by that. Take any opportunity to

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Speaker 2: h and it does done.

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Speaker 3: In a way that of financial security, because you can

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Speaker 3: have a fantastic package, but if you're being taxed the

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Speaker 3: heck out of it.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, well, companies are paying such a huge penalty for

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Speaker 2: any fringe benefit to start or not any I shouldn't say,

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Speaker 2: but for defined fringe benefits. So apart from that, it's

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Speaker 2: cash and then I choose what I do with that money.

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Speaker 2: That's really singular in my case.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I wouldn't disagree actually, and I think this changes.

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Speaker 3: I do think it changes throughout your life and throughout

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Speaker 3: your career. I think you can look at learning and growth.

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Speaker 3: I think you can. You do have a time where

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Speaker 3: flexibility is key. I'm in a phase where it is

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Speaker 3: finan It is financial. If two small children they're not

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Speaker 3: getting cheaper, it is financial.

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Speaker 2: But are you too working parents supporting them?

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Speaker 3: And you have to be you need dual income households now.

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Speaker 3: But I do think that what that financial security offers

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Speaker 3: you money buys you time back. So it means, yeah,

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Speaker 3: it means that you can afford a meal service if

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Speaker 3: you want to. It means you can afford a cleaners.

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Speaker 3: You don't need to spend your weekends cleaning. You can

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Speaker 3: spend that time with your children. It means that if

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Speaker 3: you've got if you have even a stringent package of

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Speaker 3: and your leave, you can spend that on some fantastic

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Speaker 3: memory making vacations. So the money does buy you greatness

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Speaker 3: in other space, and it buys you your time back

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Speaker 3: in other spaces, even if your job is maybe taking

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Speaker 3: a bit more time from you than it would do

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Speaker 3: on a lower salary.

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Speaker 1: I love that, despite all of this research that in

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Speaker 1: the end, cash is still king right. It buys you.

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Speaker 1: It does give you the ability to craft your own

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Speaker 1: and that's okay.

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Speaker 2: It should be a shameful discussion.

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Speaker 3: People are allowed to want to pay their bills and

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Speaker 3: then some people are allowed to want.

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Speaker 2: To do that.

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Speaker 1: It's a great conversation, all right. Thank you very much, Adam,

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Speaker 1: thank you, Michael, and thank you Natalie.

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Speaker 3: Thank you.

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Speaker 1: If you have a question that you would like us

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Speaker 1: to tackle and discuss and dissect and perhaps disagree on.

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Speaker 1: Send through anything on LinkedIn, Instagram, Facebook, or at Fearangreed

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Speaker 1: dot com dot au R Michael Thompson and this is

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Speaker 1: Fear and Greed Q and a