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Speaker 1: Him Mike Boris, and this is straight Talk. Can you

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Speaker 1: just take you quickly inside a woman's world, the women's world,

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Speaker 1: Go Me Freeman.

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Speaker 2: Hello, Marke Worris, Hello Phaps, Well the straight Talk. Thanks

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Speaker 2: for having me on straight Talk. I was fascinated always

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Speaker 2: in the news and information and what we would now

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Speaker 2: call content. I used to love magazines. There was no

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Speaker 2: other medium that really at that time spoke to women.

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Speaker 2: The old joke is that Dolly taught you what an

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Speaker 2: orgasm was. Cleo taught you how to have one, Cosmo

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Speaker 2: taught you had a fake one, and the W This

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Speaker 2: Weekly taught you had to knit one, and then you died.

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Speaker 2: And so it was like we built our communities around

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Speaker 2: these brands. It was really powerful. Part of the reason

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Speaker 2: I left magazines was because I got tired of trying

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Speaker 2: to explain to my bosses that armageddon was coming in

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Speaker 2: the form of the Internet and that we needed to move,

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Speaker 2: we needed to evolve, and they were like, no, we're

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Speaker 2: a magazine company. What we do at Mama MEA, I

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Speaker 2: guess is cover all of those things. We've got sixty

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Speaker 2: four different podcasts we speak to eight million Australian women

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Speaker 2: every month. Is to make the world a better place

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Speaker 2: for women and girls.

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Speaker 1: Look, I'm just looking over it, tour producer me are

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Speaker 1: starting to interview me, Yeah, as she can't help it

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Speaker 1: MEA Freeman.

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Speaker 2: Hello, Mark Werris, Hello, welcomes straight Talk. Thanks for having

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Speaker 2: me on Straight Talk.

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Speaker 1: I love the way you dressed like they're so cool.

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Speaker 1: You need to get to a stage in your life

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Speaker 1: that being cool as not what everyone else things being

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Speaker 1: as called as you wear, what the hell you feel

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Speaker 1: like wearing it?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, just be comfortable, exactly be comfortable. But for me,

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Speaker 2: it's also sparking joy. So I realized I don't dress

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Speaker 2: for men. I don't dress for women either, because I

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Speaker 2: often just dressed in a ridiculous way. But it just

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Speaker 2: gives me joy. And if someone hates it, it doesn't

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Speaker 2: honestly doesn't affect me, and it's not interesting to me

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Speaker 2: what they think. It just sparks joy in me.

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Speaker 1: Do you know I don't know if you know this,

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Speaker 1: but I know, and I'm hoping you still that. But

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Speaker 1: I knew your dad in the nineties, did you Yeah? Yeah,

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Speaker 1: And I also knew I knew Brian better. Yeah, But

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Speaker 1: your dad and Brian Sherman were the equity known as

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Speaker 1: equid Linked Twins in those days, they were, and they

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Speaker 1: were one of the first group to ever go sort

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Speaker 1: of one of the most prominent groups and first groups

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Speaker 1: to work move into the funds management sort of sphere

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Speaker 1: in Australia before it was even known. And I got

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Speaker 1: to meet him through some people who are good mates

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Speaker 1: of mine, who were friends there and actually they're a

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Speaker 1: Jewish lawyer guy who used to work for back in

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Speaker 1: the nineties. And that's where I first met Your Father's

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Speaker 1: your father still alive? He is well, none perfect.

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Speaker 2: I see him every week. He is he turned eighty

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Speaker 2: last year.

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Speaker 1: Wow.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and he's still great.

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Speaker 1: Well, please give him my regards if he remembers me

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Speaker 1: at all. But I was only a young fellow when

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Speaker 1: I did meet him, and I was with it in

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Speaker 1: a law fulm called Simon Zebowski, and that's where I

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Speaker 1: meet him in those days, back in those days. Yeah, Mason,

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Speaker 1: feel me feel really ancient. But I'm sitting here in

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Speaker 1: front of someone who's the daughter of somebody I know,

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Speaker 1: or the son of somebody I know.

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Speaker 2: I feel the same way. I had dinner with a

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Speaker 2: girlfriend last night and her daughter is an entrepreneur. You

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Speaker 2: know her daughter, who I knew when she was a

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Speaker 2: little kid, is an entrepreneur of the skin of the

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Speaker 2: sunscreen band Ultraviolet. And I now interview the children of

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Speaker 2: people I used to know. So I hear you totally.

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Speaker 1: Well, what's for me is what's worse though, was you're

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Speaker 1: a mature woman, have grown How old are kids?

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Speaker 2: Twenty seven, eighteen and sixteen?

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Speaker 1: So you've got grown kids? Yeah, pretty much.

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Speaker 2: I've got a grandchild.

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Speaker 1: Do you have Wow?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, my grandma, my eccentric grandmother era.

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Speaker 1: I have a grand I have three grandsons.

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Speaker 2: Isn't it the best?

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Speaker 1: So good?

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Speaker 2: Do you love it?

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Speaker 1: Yeah?

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Speaker 2: I do?

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Speaker 1: I do, I really have it. I'm actually on a weekend.

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Speaker 1: What's weird? It's amazing. I'm just looking over it. A

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Speaker 1: producer me are starting to interview me as she can't

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Speaker 1: help it. But I tell you why I love it

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Speaker 1: is that on a weekend when I'm thinking what am

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Speaker 1: I going to do? Like I'm trying to I try

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Speaker 1: to chill on weekends. And I just sent them a

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Speaker 1: text for all my sons and I say, semi photograph

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Speaker 1: with the kids. Yeah, And they send me video with

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Speaker 1: the kids doing something stupid or you know. I bought

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Speaker 1: them all at punching ball the other day.

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Speaker 2: And how old are their grandkids?

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Speaker 1: The two of them are one two, one year old

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Speaker 1: each one. There's two weeks between them and the other one.

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Speaker 1: And George's six at seventh. Sorry, And I just love

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Speaker 1: watching their antics.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I've got more patients as a grandmother than they

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Speaker 2: probably did as a mum, Like you can enjoy it more.

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Speaker 1: Well, also, you're not as exhausted because I mean, you

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Speaker 1: ever think back, you've got three kids. Yeah, when you

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Speaker 1: think back, I had four sons, and I think back,

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Speaker 1: how the hell did I do it?

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Speaker 2: Were your hands on dad?

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Speaker 1: Yeah? Well yes, with in my second marriage with the

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Speaker 1: three boys, I was more so because my wife at

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Speaker 1: the time, she was ill for a lot a lot

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Speaker 1: of time, and unfortunately, so I had to do a lot.

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Speaker 1: When I say hands on, did I go to everything

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Speaker 1: like school, parent teaching me?

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Speaker 2: Know?

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Speaker 1: But I was always there. Yeah, And like in the

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Speaker 1: morning I had to get them ready for school, and

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Speaker 1: I feel someone ill. I would make sure that nanny

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Speaker 1: or my grand my mother came over and the other

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Speaker 1: grandmother came over, and I was always sort of organizing crap.

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Speaker 1: But I was sort of pretty hands on relative to

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Speaker 1: the fact that I was trying to run a business. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and I was running the Wizard business in those days,

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Speaker 1: so it was pretty full on, and I had a

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Speaker 1: pretty full on partner who was sort of very demanding

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Speaker 1: of me. So and that's not James, that's scary. So

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Speaker 1: I had really but I wonder where I got the

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Speaker 1: energy from, Like, like I couldn't do it.

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Speaker 2: I just well, no, because you're older.

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Speaker 1: I'm old. I just don't have that energy all the patients,

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Speaker 1: I think, and I do you think you get into

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Speaker 1: a fog when you're a mom or a dad and

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Speaker 1: you've got and you're sort of just you're just doing Look, yeah,

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Speaker 1: you're not standing back thinking about it.

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Speaker 2: No, I mean you have no choice. Whereas that's what's

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Speaker 2: so lovely about being a grandparent is that you can

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Speaker 2: actually enjoy it because it's for shorter periods of time.

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Speaker 1: How old is your grand.

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Speaker 2: She's one and a half. So even if she stays

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Speaker 2: the night and she wakes up, I don't even care

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Speaker 2: because it's one night, Like I don't I can sleep

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Speaker 2: in the next day like no, you know, like I've

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Speaker 2: got to get to work tomorrow and put the load

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Speaker 2: of washing on and get dinner, and you know that

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Speaker 2: it's like you feel quite beleagued.

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Speaker 1: Does she get into bed.

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Speaker 2: When your kids are little? No, she sleeps in a

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Speaker 2: little sleeping bag. I'm very strict about why not strict,

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Speaker 2: but I follow all the rules that my son puts

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Speaker 2: down for This is what she did, This is her routine.

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Speaker 2: And I wouldn't dare.

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Speaker 1: Cross that you have one son.

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Speaker 2: My eldest is twenty seven, my daughter is eighteen, and

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Speaker 2: then I've got a younger son who's sixteen, still at school. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: I've got a child at My husband's biggest fear is

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Speaker 2: we still have kids at school while we had grown children.

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Speaker 2: And hey, it's come to pass. But I'm stoked because

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Speaker 2: I wanted more than three kids. So I feel like,

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Speaker 2: you know, I've got a little bit of that.

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Speaker 1: At eighteen months old, one and a half years, they're walking,

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Speaker 1: they're actually that's total level. That's when they're a little

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Speaker 1: bit mischievous.

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Speaker 2: What do your personalities come out?

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Speaker 1: But also like there, what do you do is your house?

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Speaker 2: We play with my jewelry. I've got a room set

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Speaker 2: up for her. She loves reading books. We go to

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Speaker 2: the park. But I like we're a family of homebodies.

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Speaker 2: I like hanging out at home and just mucking around.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, but do you job with your house? Like

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Speaker 1: so do you you're running around making sure there's a Yeah,

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Speaker 1: you have to.

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Speaker 2: Buy all the new stuff, like I have to buy

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Speaker 2: a cot again. I have to buy pram again in

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Speaker 2: a high chair and all that stuff I've just completely

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Speaker 2: forgotten about, and nappies and you know, a lot of

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Speaker 2: the stuff stay the same, but there's you know a

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Speaker 2: few funky new inventions. I like a funky new pram.

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Speaker 1: And are you one of those grandparents I try to

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Speaker 1: be who tries to be constructive with the kid, for example,

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Speaker 1: relatively the way I was with my kids growing up.

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Speaker 1: I just happy for me to get up, beat their

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Speaker 1: food and go back to sleep. Yeah, as opposed to

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Speaker 1: now when George is there, he's a seven year old.

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Speaker 1: I'm always trying to give in constructive things to do,

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Speaker 1: like lego, let's make something, let's do something like I

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Speaker 1: try to be like more educational.

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Speaker 2: No, I just want to be fun.

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Speaker 1: You want to be fun?

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Speaker 2: Yes, I just want to be fun. And that's what

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Speaker 2: one of the things I love. There's no pressure, like

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Speaker 2: if she doesn't have all the food groups at my house.

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Speaker 2: Oh well, like we just have fun. I feel no

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Speaker 2: pressure to tick all the boxes and do all the things.

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Speaker 1: On the Tiger are you Yeah, that's weird. I'm the

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Speaker 1: Tiger grand dad. I'm going he's got to be able

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Speaker 1: to you know, like bounce of basketball, hit the punch

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Speaker 1: of pads.

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Speaker 2: No, I forget all that stuff, like I forget like

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Speaker 2: even with my third I've sort of forgot that I

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Speaker 2: had to teach him things like how to tie shoelaces,

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Speaker 2: how to answer the phone, like I sort of because

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Speaker 2: there was such a big gap between my kids. It

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Speaker 2: was like I've been a parent for so long and

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Speaker 2: now I'm you know, I'm now being a grandparent. So

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Speaker 2: I kind of I've never been very good. I'm good

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Speaker 2: at the life lessons, like the teaching about you know, feminism,

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Speaker 2: and I love nothing more than having my kids trapped

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Speaker 2: in the car with me so I can deliver a lecture.

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Speaker 1: Your kids will got about life.

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Speaker 2: What about grandkids, Well, I don't talk to she's too

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Speaker 2: little to absorbed my life lessons. But particularly I love

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Speaker 2: a car of teenage boys on the way to sport,

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Speaker 2: where I can just give them a little bit of

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Speaker 2: coaching about life and about women and about consent and

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Speaker 2: about how to be a good guy.

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Speaker 1: That's interesting because they usually.

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Speaker 2: Try to get out of the car while it's still

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Speaker 2: moving to get away from me.

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Speaker 1: Thanks missus, Frevean, Why, thank you? Thank you?

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Speaker 2: Thanks?

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Speaker 1: Okay, Well, sixteen year old is a pretty interesting age group.

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Speaker 1: Fifteen sixteen is a pretty interesting age group.

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Speaker 2: I love sixteen year old boys.

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Speaker 1: They're pretty aware, they're so.

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Speaker 2: Oh, they're so funny. My son's group of friends are

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Speaker 2: just so funny and interesting and quirky, and they're just

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Speaker 2: good kids. They're just really interesting, good kids. I love

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Speaker 2: talking to, you know, younger people, my daughter's friends as.

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Speaker 1: Well, But when they're that age me like, you can

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Speaker 1: get the boys who are not not sulky, but it's

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Speaker 1: not cool to talk to MoMA or be sin as

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Speaker 1: talking to mom.

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Speaker 2: In front of them. Yeah, they've come out of that.

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Speaker 2: He's come out of that. Luckily. That always breaks my heart,

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Speaker 2: that face. At least I was prepared for it because

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Speaker 2: it happened with my eldest. But I find those years

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Speaker 2: between about twelve and about sixteen really hard. I really

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Speaker 2: missed them because they're just they don't even you know,

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Speaker 2: you touch them.

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Speaker 1: And they literally totally you were touched before.

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Speaker 2: Like they recoil from you, and that breaks my heart.

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Speaker 2: But then they come back around this age we.

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Speaker 1: Were just talking about, because it's interesting you just said

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Speaker 1: to me about you know, you might talk to about

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Speaker 1: life lessons, things that you've learned and experienced and things

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Speaker 1: that you're passionate about, and you know, and that is,

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Speaker 1: you know, I don't want to see women's rights and

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Speaker 1: feminism generally in the broader sense and all those things

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Speaker 1: ago with it, and you know the position of women

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Speaker 1: in society. I actually read most of my sons on

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Speaker 1: my own, so it was me and before sons, and

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Speaker 1: then we had a male dog as well. And one

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Speaker 1: of the things that I noticed that when they all

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Speaker 1: went out on their own, they left time at made

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Speaker 1: in nineteen twenty. They'd had very little experience with it

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Speaker 1: other than my mother and that was more a grandmother.

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Speaker 2: Did they go to boys schools as well?

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Speaker 1: They were Cranbrooken Escot And.

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Speaker 2: I think that's really really challenging, you know. I think

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Speaker 2: that single sex education is yeah, is problematic, particularly if

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Speaker 2: kids don't have siblings of the opposite sex at home.

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Speaker 2: I think it can It can mean that, I mean,

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Speaker 2: and I went to a girl's high school, but it

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Speaker 2: can mean that weekends can just be about hooking up.

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Speaker 2: Like you're so focused on the hook up, you almost

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Speaker 2: don't have time to have girls as friends or boys

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Speaker 2: as friends unless you're in a sort of a group,

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Speaker 2: which I had growing up because my best friend had

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Speaker 2: a twin brother, so we had this big group of

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Speaker 2: girls and boys. And my son has that as well.

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Speaker 2: They have a big group of girls and guys that

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Speaker 2: are all mates. But yeah, I think that that's it's

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Speaker 2: so important to have friends of the opposite sex.

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Speaker 1: Well, given it that you're someone who's you operate in

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Speaker 1: this environment, what would you have said to someone like

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Speaker 1: me and during that period, because I was acutely unaware

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Speaker 1: of what might be the consequences of not having them

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Speaker 1: exposed to enough women in their life, influencial women I'm

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Speaker 1: talking about. And they all relied on each other quite

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Speaker 1: heavily because I was always flying overseas to work. So

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Speaker 1: we had a nanny there, but she was Japanese, couldn't

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Speaker 1: speak hardly in the English, and she would take over

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Speaker 1: when I was away, and the boys had sort of

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Speaker 1: pretty much run right. What don't mean by that? Not

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Speaker 1: in a bad way. But they owned the house. They

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Speaker 1: owned the place because it's four of them, and they

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Speaker 1: range from nineteen down to nine and a probably a

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Speaker 1: bit overwhelming for the poor girl when I think about

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Speaker 1: it in hindsight. But I never used think about this stuff.

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Speaker 1: But I didn't really have an alternative. I guess I've

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Speaker 1: got a sold them to send them to, a sold them,

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Speaker 1: could have sold them to, could have sent him to

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Speaker 1: a co at school. But I wasn't aware of those things.

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Speaker 1: You know, maybe I'm maybe I'm the problem. Maybe I

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Speaker 1: was just totally unaware of having proper balance for them.

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Speaker 1: I only become aware of when they got older. What

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Speaker 1: would you say to someone like that? Because there must

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Speaker 1: be other men in those situations.

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Speaker 2: I just think they learn a lot by how the

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Speaker 2: men in their life treat women and talk about women.

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Speaker 2: I think that that's I think that you model that behavior,

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Speaker 2: whether it's how the men in their life treat their

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Speaker 2: mother or their grandmother, or their aunts or their you know, waitress,

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Speaker 2: or you know someone that works in their house or

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Speaker 2: that works for them, or their teacher. You know, it's

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Speaker 2: how you talk about women. It's how you talk about

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Speaker 2: women that you know, how you talk about women that

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Speaker 2: you don't know, women that are in the news, women

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Speaker 2: you know, And I think they learn a lot about

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Speaker 2: how to be in the world just by osmosis. It's

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Speaker 2: not though, it's not you know, for all of my

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Speaker 2: life lessons in the car, it's not really that. It's

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Speaker 2: the quantity exposure that they get. Because kids biggest role

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Speaker 2: models are always their parents, and they have the most

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Speaker 2: exposure to their parents in most cases. So I think

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Speaker 2: that it's about that interesting.

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Speaker 1: So probably what I should have been doing at that

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Speaker 1: time is because I was very close to my mother

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Speaker 1: and my sister, I probably should have been exposing them. Well,

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Speaker 1: I did expose them a bit, but I should expose them.

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Speaker 1: I should have exposed them more to those things. It's

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Speaker 1: funny because I just never grew up aware of those things.

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Speaker 1: Maybe it's a generational thing too for my generation. You know,

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Speaker 1: men and men women women. Men went to work, you know,

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Speaker 1: provided the women stayed hound mind the kids. You know,

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Speaker 1: if the husband and wife never sort of crossed paths

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Speaker 1: because when he got home she was on a bed,

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Speaker 1: or because she was too tight, and that was pretty normal.

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Speaker 1: Certainly when I grew up and a firm believe monkey,

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Speaker 1: see monkey, do exactly. It doesn't matter what you get told,

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Speaker 1: you said Biasmosis. And as you said that, I'm thinking, well, observation.

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Speaker 1: I observed I did, and my son's probably observed me.

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Speaker 1: I wasn't disrespectful to women, but I just had no

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Speaker 1: women in life. I didn't even have a girlfriend. Like.

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Speaker 1: I didn't want to do that because I didn't want

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Speaker 1: to challenge them with that, So I was just Dad

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Speaker 1: went to work. Dad came home and looked and you know,

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Speaker 1: marked around with the boys and told him do the

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Speaker 1: home and go to bed, and then Dad would go

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Speaker 1: on a work trip and come back ye later.

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Speaker 2: I don't know how you would have constructed that, like

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Speaker 2: without it, you know, it's not like, let's go and

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Speaker 2: be around some women like I don't know if you

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Speaker 2: can sort of do that, but it's you know, I

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Speaker 2: think one of the toughest things for boys and girls

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Speaker 2: is seeing the opposite sex is the other. And you know,

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Speaker 2: one of the I remember saying to my son he

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Speaker 2: really appreciated were on the way to school one day

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Speaker 2: he had like an exam. He was in the middle

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Speaker 2: of his exams and something had happened in the US.

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Speaker 2: I think it was the Supreme Court Roe versus Weight

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Speaker 2: or something, and I was trying to explain that the

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Speaker 2: rights to reproductive right. It's like the abortion being legal

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Speaker 2: is not just a women's issue. It's also a man's

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Speaker 2: issue because if you accidentally get a goal pregnant, which

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Speaker 2: you probably will in your lifetime at some stage, guess

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Speaker 2: what that is half of your problem. And if she

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Speaker 2: doesn't have access to abortion legally. And I was giving

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Speaker 2: this whole copse, and it's like, can I please just

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Speaker 2: study for my friends Inciente? And I was like, okay, yeah,

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Speaker 2: but it's really important.

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Speaker 1: So can I just do you mind if I just

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Speaker 1: take a little bit. I don't know. I mean, there's

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Speaker 1: a lot of stuff in the bedro on Wikipedia, but

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Speaker 1: I know half the stuff in Wikipedia, with the gross perspective,

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Speaker 1: Wikipedia is incorrect. I know that my birthday is on

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Speaker 1: there sometime in November, and it's like my birthday was

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Speaker 1: in June. So what my team produced to me is

370
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Speaker 1: probably incorrect. So can I go back? Mea Friedman as

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Speaker 1: a young kid? Yeah, where'd you were up?

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Speaker 2: I grew up in Sydney, brothers and sisters. An older

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Speaker 2: brother seven years older.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and mum and dad divorce, married, married, still married,

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Speaker 1: happily married. And your dad, my dad.

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Speaker 2: Was started his own business when I was probably in

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Speaker 2: late primary school. So it was like he had a

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Speaker 2: business partner. He'd worked in you know, he'd been as

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Speaker 2: sort of a stockbroker, went out on his own entrepreneur.

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Speaker 2: It was very much the two families because it was

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Speaker 2: his business partner was his cousin's husband, and they kind

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Speaker 2: of literally from the kitchen table, like I have very

383
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Speaker 2: strong memories of the two families sort of grew up together,

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Speaker 2: and it was you know, we'd be putting things in

385
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Speaker 2: envelopes and sending them out the kids, and it would

386
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Speaker 2: be walking, you know, trying to think of names for

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Speaker 2: the business. So we watched that happen. I wasn't you know.

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Speaker 2: He was an immigrant from South Africa, so his whole

389
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Speaker 2: family came over as a political protest to apartheid in

390
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Speaker 2: the sixties because that's the only way you could protest

391
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Speaker 2: apartheid is by leaving. And they had a great life there.

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Speaker 2: His father was a doctor and his mother was an artist,

393
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Speaker 2: and you know, white people had great lives in South

394
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Speaker 2: Africa during apartheid, but they found it absolutely oborron and

395
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Speaker 2: they left in protest and came to Australia with nothing

396
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Speaker 2: and had to start again. So I did not grow

397
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Speaker 2: up in a house with money. My mum, her father's

398
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Speaker 2: a doctor, but you know, very working class and middle class,

399
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Speaker 2: and she was Australian or yeah Australian, you know, back

400
00:18:28,440 --> 00:18:32,479
Speaker 2: to the convicts. And so, yeah, I grew up in

401
00:18:32,480 --> 00:18:35,880
Speaker 2: a house that was, you know, kind of typical seventies

402
00:18:35,920 --> 00:18:39,560
Speaker 2: where the parents were doing their own thing. A parent

403
00:18:39,640 --> 00:18:44,399
Speaker 2: was something you were, not something that you did, you know,

404
00:18:44,760 --> 00:18:48,400
Speaker 2: kind of normal regular childhood. And my dad's business became

405
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Speaker 2: really successful probably when when I was in my late

406
00:18:53,440 --> 00:18:57,000
Speaker 2: years of primary school, but it kind of wasn't really overnight.

407
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Speaker 2: And yeah, so I always had an entrepreneur in my world.

408
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Speaker 2: You saw it since Yeah, I saw it. I saw

409
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Speaker 2: what it looked.

410
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Speaker 1: Like watching your dad starting a startup, doing a startup.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it was very much a startup with business existed.

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00:19:13,400 --> 00:19:16,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, very much started and this is the this

413
00:19:17,080 --> 00:19:18,399
Speaker 1: is the funds managed business.

414
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Speaker 2: Yeah.

415
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Speaker 1: Yeah, so that was pretty new. I don't know if

416
00:19:21,040 --> 00:19:23,840
Speaker 1: you know that, but yeah, there was a lot of

417
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Speaker 1: going on in the US. It got exported or imported

418
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Speaker 1: from US to Australia. We didn't really have funds management,

419
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Speaker 1: particularly definitely in the eighties. There was a few people

420
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Speaker 1: talking about it. It was nowhere near as prevalent as

421
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Speaker 1: was in the United States. And then a few people

422
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Speaker 1: like your dad and his business partner started to have

423
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Speaker 1: a crack of these things. But it wasn't easy to

424
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Speaker 1: raise the money. It wasn't easy to get.

425
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Speaker 2: And they traveled a lot and they raised money Australia,

426
00:19:50,080 --> 00:19:54,160
Speaker 2: went overseas, got money to be invested in Australia. And

427
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Speaker 2: you know, I remember any kid whose parents run a

428
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Speaker 2: business and grows up in that family, there are really

429
00:20:02,359 --> 00:20:05,359
Speaker 2: tough times, and there are scary times, and it's the

430
00:20:05,400 --> 00:20:09,320
Speaker 2: stakes are high, and you know, there's there's highs, a

431
00:20:09,320 --> 00:20:10,160
Speaker 2: lot of highs and lows.

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Speaker 1: Could you see that, I mean, as a young girl,

433
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Speaker 1: how would you been, like, Yeah.

434
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Speaker 2: I remember the big I remember the stock market crash

435
00:20:15,720 --> 00:20:18,479
Speaker 2: that was terrifying in the age seven yeah yeah, and

436
00:20:18,520 --> 00:20:23,160
Speaker 2: I was what sixteen then, and that was like shockwaves

437
00:20:23,359 --> 00:20:27,760
Speaker 2: through the world. But but I was not protected from that,

438
00:20:28,040 --> 00:20:30,000
Speaker 2: like that was potentially ruinous.

439
00:20:30,160 --> 00:20:33,800
Speaker 1: What happened. I mean, remember, what did you feel though,

440
00:20:34,040 --> 00:20:35,960
Speaker 1: fear in the household.

441
00:20:35,840 --> 00:20:38,200
Speaker 2: Absolute terror because like, is this the end.

442
00:20:39,119 --> 00:20:41,600
Speaker 1: Stock marke rush was a big deal, Like it was huge, massive,

443
00:20:42,280 --> 00:20:45,760
Speaker 1: and your dad's fund would have been investing in the

444
00:20:45,760 --> 00:20:47,679
Speaker 1: stock market. So one in those days people do is

445
00:20:48,080 --> 00:20:50,159
Speaker 1: maybe I'm a high net worth person. I put in,

446
00:20:50,280 --> 00:20:52,480
Speaker 1: you know, maybe a million dollars into the fund, and

447
00:20:52,520 --> 00:20:55,840
Speaker 1: the objective was your dad would invest mine and all

448
00:20:55,920 --> 00:20:58,920
Speaker 1: my other friends' money. In those days, they would invest

449
00:20:58,920 --> 00:21:01,200
Speaker 1: in the stock market. They didn't really startups and equity

450
00:21:01,240 --> 00:21:03,760
Speaker 1: private equity stuff in those days, but the investment stock market,

451
00:21:03,960 --> 00:21:08,360
Speaker 1: stock market crashes. Do you have any sense of as

452
00:21:08,400 --> 00:21:11,920
Speaker 1: a teenager, have any sense of the devastation that you

453
00:21:11,960 --> 00:21:15,760
Speaker 1: would the anxiety that your father would have been experiencing.

454
00:21:16,000 --> 00:21:20,159
Speaker 2: Oh massive. I mean, my whole childhood was just anxiety.

455
00:21:20,200 --> 00:21:22,520
Speaker 2: Before I realized that I actually had anxiety, which is

456
00:21:22,560 --> 00:21:25,840
Speaker 2: only sort of much later in my life. I was

457
00:21:25,840 --> 00:21:28,320
Speaker 2: an incredibly anxious child because there was also the threat

458
00:21:28,359 --> 00:21:31,199
Speaker 2: of nuclear war because it was the Cold War with

459
00:21:31,280 --> 00:21:34,080
Speaker 2: Russia and America, so I lived and then there was

460
00:21:34,119 --> 00:21:37,120
Speaker 2: also AIDS, so that was the eighties. So the eighties

461
00:21:37,280 --> 00:21:40,080
Speaker 2: was just the worst time to grow up because between

462
00:21:40,119 --> 00:21:43,600
Speaker 2: the stock market Crash, AIDS and the Cold War. We

463
00:21:43,600 --> 00:21:47,800
Speaker 2: were a generation that was just terrified, constantly terrified.

464
00:21:47,880 --> 00:21:50,040
Speaker 1: Well, the ads major terrified AIDS.

465
00:21:50,200 --> 00:21:56,119
Speaker 2: Absolutely because we became of age sexually when sex was

466
00:21:56,119 --> 00:22:01,560
Speaker 2: connected with death and so that was our introduction to

467
00:22:01,600 --> 00:22:05,640
Speaker 2: sex that it could kill you. And the Simon Reynolds,

468
00:22:05,880 --> 00:22:10,720
Speaker 2: the Grim Reaper ads, and it was everything was scary.

469
00:22:10,840 --> 00:22:15,600
Speaker 2: My memory of my childhood and adolescents was just terror,

470
00:22:16,080 --> 00:22:17,080
Speaker 2: absolute terror.

471
00:22:17,720 --> 00:22:19,880
Speaker 1: How did you become aware? Because aware of those things,

472
00:22:19,920 --> 00:22:24,640
Speaker 1: because it's pretty unusual that, certainly in my household at

473
00:22:24,640 --> 00:22:28,639
Speaker 1: that stage, I had a teenage son. Close enough to

474
00:22:28,680 --> 00:22:32,200
Speaker 1: teenage son, I would not have brought home the newspaper

475
00:22:32,200 --> 00:22:34,359
Speaker 1: to him. How is it that mer Freedman was aware

476
00:22:34,359 --> 00:22:35,960
Speaker 1: of that? Did you? Was it from TV? I mean,

477
00:22:35,960 --> 00:22:38,440
Speaker 1: the ads are on television, but was it? Did you watch?

478
00:22:39,640 --> 00:22:44,080
Speaker 2: My parents were always very you know, my mother's always

479
00:22:44,080 --> 00:22:47,000
Speaker 2: been heavily into social justice and used to take us

480
00:22:47,080 --> 00:22:52,399
Speaker 2: on Palm Sunday anti nuclear marches. When all my friends

481
00:22:52,440 --> 00:22:55,159
Speaker 2: at school were, you know, going to tennis days and stuff,

482
00:22:55,160 --> 00:22:57,960
Speaker 2: we'd be in the city carrying placards going to know

483
00:22:58,080 --> 00:23:02,280
Speaker 2: nuke's marches. So I grew up with a real understanding

484
00:23:02,280 --> 00:23:04,800
Speaker 2: of the world and social justice and politics, and because

485
00:23:04,800 --> 00:23:07,080
Speaker 2: my father had come from South Africa, all of those

486
00:23:07,119 --> 00:23:10,960
Speaker 2: conversations would happen around our table, and I was fascinated

487
00:23:11,080 --> 00:23:13,960
Speaker 2: always in the news and information and what we would

488
00:23:13,960 --> 00:23:18,919
Speaker 2: now call content. But I used to love magazines. I would,

489
00:23:19,000 --> 00:23:22,720
Speaker 2: you know, watch magazines were my thing as a kid

490
00:23:22,840 --> 00:23:25,400
Speaker 2: growing up, because that was the only women's media, any

491
00:23:25,440 --> 00:23:27,240
Speaker 2: magazines I could get my hand on. I mean, Cleo

492
00:23:27,440 --> 00:23:31,800
Speaker 2: was my go to and favorite, and you know, gold Star,

493
00:23:31,960 --> 00:23:34,959
Speaker 2: but everything from of course, I started with Dolly and

494
00:23:35,040 --> 00:23:37,919
Speaker 2: followed Lisa Wilkinson through her career. But I would buy

495
00:23:37,960 --> 00:23:39,760
Speaker 2: Women's Weekly, I'd Buyom's Day, I would buy a new

496
00:23:39,800 --> 00:23:42,840
Speaker 2: Idea because there was no other medium that really at

497
00:23:42,840 --> 00:23:46,280
Speaker 2: that time spoke to women and that covered issues that

498
00:23:46,320 --> 00:23:48,359
Speaker 2: were relevant to women. And I don't just mean like

499
00:23:48,400 --> 00:23:55,080
Speaker 2: lipstick and sex, but like relationships, career, you know, physical health,

500
00:23:55,520 --> 00:23:59,080
Speaker 2: all of those kinds of things. They would all be

501
00:23:59,160 --> 00:24:02,080
Speaker 2: in women's make. So that was when I really and

502
00:24:02,160 --> 00:24:04,000
Speaker 2: I was a really lonely kid, so all I wanted

503
00:24:04,000 --> 00:24:05,800
Speaker 2: to do was read magazines, and it just drove me

504
00:24:05,840 --> 00:24:07,439
Speaker 2: crazy that they would only come out, most of them

505
00:24:07,440 --> 00:24:07,920
Speaker 2: once a month.

506
00:24:08,119 --> 00:24:09,159
Speaker 1: I had a mean lonely.

507
00:24:09,200 --> 00:24:11,399
Speaker 2: Like in that year, my brother I was seven years older,

508
00:24:11,640 --> 00:24:16,560
Speaker 2: so that was that was a big gap. And I well,

509
00:24:16,760 --> 00:24:18,760
Speaker 2: you know, now I know that I had ADHD, So

510
00:24:19,760 --> 00:24:22,399
Speaker 2: I was like bored. I needed a lot of stimulation

511
00:24:22,760 --> 00:24:26,159
Speaker 2: and I didn't have it, Like I didn't you know,

512
00:24:26,520 --> 00:24:28,840
Speaker 2: I didn't have anyone to play with on the weekends,

513
00:24:28,840 --> 00:24:31,000
Speaker 2: and my parents were kind of busy with their own lives,

514
00:24:31,040 --> 00:24:35,080
Speaker 2: and so I would love, you know, I would just

515
00:24:35,119 --> 00:24:36,880
Speaker 2: go and buy magazines. I spent a lot of time

516
00:24:36,880 --> 00:24:39,080
Speaker 2: with my dog, and I would just go out to

517
00:24:39,160 --> 00:24:41,120
Speaker 2: the shops and save all my pocket money to buy

518
00:24:41,160 --> 00:24:42,480
Speaker 2: magazines and lawleies.

519
00:24:42,840 --> 00:24:44,919
Speaker 1: Okay, I'm just sort of having an imagination of you

520
00:24:45,000 --> 00:24:49,920
Speaker 1: sitting at home, sitting on your bed with magazine, reading magazine.

521
00:24:49,520 --> 00:24:51,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, and cutting things out and sticking them on my

522
00:24:51,359 --> 00:24:53,520
Speaker 2: wall and sticking them in my school diary and on

523
00:24:53,560 --> 00:24:54,240
Speaker 2: my school folder.

524
00:24:54,400 --> 00:24:57,320
Speaker 1: More than that, more than just reading, you were participating

525
00:24:57,359 --> 00:24:57,560
Speaker 1: in that.

526
00:24:57,720 --> 00:24:59,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, it was as much as you could. And it's

527
00:24:59,440 --> 00:25:03,320
Speaker 2: funny you say that, because one of the wonderful things

528
00:25:03,320 --> 00:25:05,919
Speaker 2: about the Internet and that has been so revelatory for

529
00:25:05,960 --> 00:25:09,400
Speaker 2: women is the two way that engagement. You couldn't really

530
00:25:09,440 --> 00:25:11,520
Speaker 2: engage with magazines unless you wrote a letter to Dolly

531
00:25:11,520 --> 00:25:13,760
Speaker 2: doctor or that was pretty much all you could do.

532
00:25:14,600 --> 00:25:16,560
Speaker 2: But you know, I'd cut them out and I wanted

533
00:25:16,600 --> 00:25:18,680
Speaker 2: to I wanted to become them.

534
00:25:18,840 --> 00:25:23,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's very interesting because not too many people and

535
00:25:23,080 --> 00:25:25,280
Speaker 1: officer those people like, if you want to be good

536
00:25:25,280 --> 00:25:27,159
Speaker 1: at something, you've got to take the next step. Just

537
00:25:27,160 --> 00:25:29,800
Speaker 1: don't read about it, cut it out even today, or

538
00:25:30,440 --> 00:25:32,400
Speaker 1: if you're reading online's a bit different. But maybe you've

539
00:25:32,560 --> 00:25:36,720
Speaker 1: photoshot it and you put it in record it somewhere.

540
00:25:36,840 --> 00:25:39,520
Speaker 2: Which is so anyone can make content now, but.

541
00:25:39,480 --> 00:25:41,840
Speaker 1: You've got to get the content and you've got to

542
00:25:41,880 --> 00:25:44,199
Speaker 1: be part of it. You've got to be participatory as

543
00:25:44,359 --> 00:25:46,639
Speaker 1: I was, just being an observations reading kind of the

544
00:25:46,680 --> 00:25:49,720
Speaker 1: next thing because then because then it becomes part of

545
00:25:49,720 --> 00:25:52,600
Speaker 1: your brain's DNA, you really get it inside your head.

546
00:25:52,600 --> 00:25:58,000
Speaker 1: And Dolly magazine and Cleo. I remember because my girlfriend

547
00:25:58,040 --> 00:26:01,160
Speaker 1: at the time, who became a she used to get

548
00:26:01,160 --> 00:26:02,920
Speaker 1: all the magazines and she'd we still always want you

549
00:26:03,000 --> 00:26:05,159
Speaker 1: do those quizzes and stuff.

550
00:26:05,240 --> 00:26:09,719
Speaker 2: Yeah, relationship quizes and that was interesting, yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely,

551
00:26:10,119 --> 00:26:14,800
Speaker 2: And it was like in a media that didn't speak

552
00:26:14,800 --> 00:26:17,320
Speaker 2: to women or care about women. And a culture that

553
00:26:17,400 --> 00:26:19,200
Speaker 2: kind of didn't really rate women, and it was very

554
00:26:19,200 --> 00:26:23,560
Speaker 2: focused on men. Women's magazines were where we built our

555
00:26:23,600 --> 00:26:27,480
Speaker 2: communities around these brands. And you know, the old joke

556
00:26:27,640 --> 00:26:30,439
Speaker 2: is that Dolly taught you what an orgasm was, Cleo

557
00:26:30,520 --> 00:26:32,560
Speaker 2: taught you how to have one, Cosmo taught you had

558
00:26:32,560 --> 00:26:34,760
Speaker 2: a fake one, and then this Weekly taught you had

559
00:26:34,760 --> 00:26:37,359
Speaker 2: a knit one, and then you died. And so it

560
00:26:37,440 --> 00:26:40,040
Speaker 2: was like, we built our communities around these brands, and

561
00:26:40,080 --> 00:26:42,200
Speaker 2: we moved from brand to brand as we got older

562
00:26:42,240 --> 00:26:46,439
Speaker 2: in our interests, in our life stage changed, and it

563
00:26:46,520 --> 00:26:48,960
Speaker 2: was really powerful, which is why it's just such a

564
00:26:49,119 --> 00:26:52,439
Speaker 2: travesty and yet an opportunity for me that, you know,

565
00:26:52,480 --> 00:26:54,879
Speaker 2: when I went on to work for those magazines and

566
00:26:55,000 --> 00:26:58,600
Speaker 2: edit some of them, that company didn't understand that what

567
00:26:58,640 --> 00:27:02,960
Speaker 2: they had were incredible. They had the most amazing collateral

568
00:27:03,040 --> 00:27:05,880
Speaker 2: in those brands that they just pissed into the wind.

569
00:27:05,920 --> 00:27:09,320
Speaker 2: And it's so sad that there's no Cleo, there's no Dolly.

570
00:27:10,720 --> 00:27:12,920
Speaker 2: You know, even brands like The Bulletin. There was these

571
00:27:12,920 --> 00:27:16,560
Speaker 2: incredible brands that meant so much and that should have

572
00:27:16,600 --> 00:27:21,320
Speaker 2: become these iconic digital brands across different platforms and they

573
00:27:21,320 --> 00:27:23,520
Speaker 2: were just you know, part of the reason I left

574
00:27:23,560 --> 00:27:26,800
Speaker 2: magazines was because I got tired of trying to explain

575
00:27:26,840 --> 00:27:30,080
Speaker 2: to my bosses that armageddon was coming in the form

576
00:27:30,119 --> 00:27:34,280
Speaker 2: of the Internet and that we needed to move, we

577
00:27:34,359 --> 00:27:36,199
Speaker 2: needed to evolve, and they were like, no, we're a

578
00:27:36,200 --> 00:27:40,000
Speaker 2: magazine company. Internet's are fad where a print company and

579
00:27:40,080 --> 00:27:42,159
Speaker 2: magazines are a fad. And anything that we put on

580
00:27:42,240 --> 00:27:46,280
Speaker 2: our website for the magazines is just to get people

581
00:27:46,320 --> 00:27:49,600
Speaker 2: to buy the magazine, and we don't want to you know,

582
00:27:49,920 --> 00:27:53,440
Speaker 2: if we put content online, then they won't buy the magazine,

583
00:27:53,480 --> 00:27:54,560
Speaker 2: and that's our business model.

584
00:27:54,720 --> 00:27:56,280
Speaker 1: Yeah. They didn't want to bussardize.

585
00:27:57,119 --> 00:27:59,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, they thought it was going to be killing the

586
00:27:59,040 --> 00:28:01,680
Speaker 2: golden goose, and in fact, he killed the golden goose

587
00:28:01,720 --> 00:28:05,320
Speaker 2: by not seeing what was happening under their nose.

588
00:28:05,600 --> 00:28:08,680
Speaker 1: Before we moved past that. What was your first introduction

589
00:28:09,240 --> 00:28:10,960
Speaker 1: to working in magazines.

590
00:28:10,800 --> 00:28:15,720
Speaker 2: Doing work experience at CLEO Lisa Wilkinson and Deborah Thomas. Yeah,

591
00:28:16,400 --> 00:28:19,479
Speaker 2: I mean, iconic, amazing. I had dinner with them both

592
00:28:19,560 --> 00:28:24,080
Speaker 2: last night and some of my CLEO friends. So that

593
00:28:24,280 --> 00:28:27,960
Speaker 2: was the most incredible education that I could have got.

594
00:28:28,119 --> 00:28:30,919
Speaker 2: Like I to work at the knee of those women,

595
00:28:31,160 --> 00:28:34,320
Speaker 2: and to be in that building in Park Street during

596
00:28:34,359 --> 00:28:39,560
Speaker 2: that time of when the Packers owned it and it

597
00:28:39,600 --> 00:28:43,920
Speaker 2: was Nannie King and it was it wasn't at a Buttros,

598
00:28:43,960 --> 00:28:47,520
Speaker 2: but it was like Lisa and Pat Ingram and you know,

599
00:28:47,880 --> 00:28:53,320
Speaker 2: absolute icons and Richard Walshon and then Nick Chan and

600
00:28:53,920 --> 00:28:56,920
Speaker 2: even later John Alexander liked it. But yeah, Ja, to

601
00:28:57,000 --> 00:29:01,480
Speaker 2: be around those people was an ab salute privilege and

602
00:29:01,520 --> 00:29:03,200
Speaker 2: like that was my university because I dropped out of

603
00:29:03,280 --> 00:29:05,720
Speaker 2: university almost immediately and that was my university.

604
00:29:05,880 --> 00:29:08,080
Speaker 1: I just scored the job. How old you get?

605
00:29:08,160 --> 00:29:10,200
Speaker 2: I just wrote a letter. I just wrote a letter,

606
00:29:10,280 --> 00:29:14,040
Speaker 2: and it was like to Lisa and to just like,

607
00:29:14,840 --> 00:29:16,640
Speaker 2: you know, can I please call I love mag It

608
00:29:16,680 --> 00:29:20,280
Speaker 2: wasn't a very original letter. And you know, she came

609
00:29:20,320 --> 00:29:22,640
Speaker 2: and said, I knew someone else who'd been a guy

610
00:29:22,720 --> 00:29:25,680
Speaker 2: actually who'd been doing work experience like a day a week,

611
00:29:26,040 --> 00:29:28,920
Speaker 2: and that was my dream. And you know, I think

612
00:29:28,960 --> 00:29:30,720
Speaker 2: I sort of used his name to get in the door.

613
00:29:30,880 --> 00:29:34,080
Speaker 2: And you know, in my naivity, I thought Lisa would

614
00:29:34,080 --> 00:29:36,320
Speaker 2: offer me a job. But like I was a nineteen

615
00:29:36,360 --> 00:29:38,720
Speaker 2: year old, eighteen year old, I had no experience, nothing,

616
00:29:40,280 --> 00:29:42,080
Speaker 2: And she said, I remember exactly what she said in

617
00:29:42,080 --> 00:29:45,960
Speaker 2: that conversation, she said, because she was no doubt useful.

618
00:29:46,000 --> 00:29:48,560
Speaker 2: A lot of people going on magazines, it's glamorous. I

619
00:29:48,600 --> 00:29:50,760
Speaker 2: didn't want to go to the photo shoots. I wanted

620
00:29:50,800 --> 00:29:53,120
Speaker 2: like she was my hero, not the models on the cover.

621
00:29:53,680 --> 00:29:55,680
Speaker 2: It was Lisa. I wanted to be in the office.

622
00:29:55,720 --> 00:29:59,680
Speaker 2: I wanted with the disgusting carpet that was masking tape

623
00:29:59,720 --> 00:30:02,840
Speaker 2: down and the shit falling from the ceiling and the little

624
00:30:02,920 --> 00:30:05,520
Speaker 2: rabbit Warren. You know, Carrie didn't get rich by spending

625
00:30:05,520 --> 00:30:08,800
Speaker 2: money on his officers. But that's where I wanted to be,

626
00:30:09,000 --> 00:30:12,600
Speaker 2: learning at the knee of those incredible women, and that's

627
00:30:12,640 --> 00:30:16,440
Speaker 2: where I spent the next pretty much fifteen years of

628
00:30:16,480 --> 00:30:16,880
Speaker 2: my career.

629
00:30:16,960 --> 00:30:19,160
Speaker 1: It's pretty full on though, as a nine year old

630
00:30:19,400 --> 00:30:25,120
Speaker 1: thinking that way, especially as opposed to playing the ball

631
00:30:25,440 --> 00:30:28,240
Speaker 1: the magazine, you played the man the woman. In this case,

632
00:30:28,400 --> 00:30:30,840
Speaker 1: he played the player. So you actually wanted to be

633
00:30:30,880 --> 00:30:34,720
Speaker 1: with Lisa Wilkinson. What did she what did she represent you?

634
00:30:35,680 --> 00:30:40,120
Speaker 1: And how do you know Lisa was as important a

635
00:30:40,120 --> 00:30:45,200
Speaker 1: person potentially into the characteristics as you did know about

636
00:30:45,200 --> 00:30:48,640
Speaker 1: like most people. Was she the editor of She'd.

637
00:30:48,440 --> 00:30:51,760
Speaker 2: Been the youngest ever editor in Australia twenty one because

638
00:30:51,760 --> 00:30:55,040
Speaker 2: I'd read Dolly as an eight year old or nine

639
00:30:55,080 --> 00:30:58,840
Speaker 2: year old whatever. And my favorite thing was Lisa's editor's

640
00:30:58,880 --> 00:31:01,080
Speaker 2: letter at the front of the magazine. And it's so

641
00:31:01,160 --> 00:31:04,000
Speaker 2: funny that editor's letters ended up becoming, you know, these

642
00:31:04,040 --> 00:31:08,760
Speaker 2: airbrushed glamour shots. But Lisa was always very relatable. She

643
00:31:08,800 --> 00:31:11,560
Speaker 2: had this long hair, and she had like glasses and

644
00:31:11,920 --> 00:31:17,960
Speaker 2: she looked like a regular woman girl like she was

645
00:31:18,000 --> 00:31:22,080
Speaker 2: my idol, absolutely, and then meeting her and just learning

646
00:31:22,240 --> 00:31:25,120
Speaker 2: so much from her over the time that I was

647
00:31:25,120 --> 00:31:28,440
Speaker 2: there before she you know, left and had a baby

648
00:31:28,440 --> 00:31:30,479
Speaker 2: and whent a maternity leave and I can't remember if

649
00:31:30,480 --> 00:31:32,280
Speaker 2: she came back before she had a second child, but

650
00:31:33,360 --> 00:31:36,600
Speaker 2: you know, sitting with her and Deborah, and the most

651
00:31:36,600 --> 00:31:41,440
Speaker 2: important thing Lisa ever taught me was something that's a

652
00:31:41,480 --> 00:31:43,880
Speaker 2: core value at Mamma Mia now, which is walking her shoes.

653
00:31:44,000 --> 00:31:46,360
Speaker 2: And she didn't use those exact words, but she always said, look,

654
00:31:46,840 --> 00:31:50,120
Speaker 2: we're making this magazine not for ourselves, not to impress

655
00:31:50,480 --> 00:31:54,400
Speaker 2: our peers or other people at other magazines or our friends.

656
00:31:54,640 --> 00:31:58,960
Speaker 2: We're making it for our readers. And so every photoshoot

657
00:31:59,000 --> 00:32:01,600
Speaker 2: that you're on, every cover line, you write every story

658
00:32:01,640 --> 00:32:04,280
Speaker 2: you pitch. Don't think about what you want to put

659
00:32:04,320 --> 00:32:06,600
Speaker 2: out to the audience, think about what it looks like

660
00:32:06,680 --> 00:32:10,920
Speaker 2: from their point of view. And that has been something

661
00:32:10,960 --> 00:32:13,960
Speaker 2: I've never forgotten, and that has informed every career decision

662
00:32:13,960 --> 00:32:16,120
Speaker 2: I've ever made, and every content decision I've ever made

663
00:32:16,160 --> 00:32:17,000
Speaker 2: is walking her shoes.

664
00:32:17,120 --> 00:32:21,600
Speaker 1: That's funny because as well Kerry say to me, he

665
00:32:21,680 --> 00:32:24,760
Speaker 1: used to say, I couldn't give a damn what you

666
00:32:24,840 --> 00:32:27,920
Speaker 1: think borrowers want. I want you to work out what

667
00:32:27,960 --> 00:32:31,280
Speaker 1: they want, and that's what you talk to them about. Yeah,

668
00:32:31,320 --> 00:32:33,080
Speaker 1: and that's the only reason we're in business.

669
00:32:33,200 --> 00:32:36,880
Speaker 2: A lot of people make content for themselves or to

670
00:32:36,920 --> 00:32:40,840
Speaker 2: impress other people, and that's one thing to do. But

671
00:32:41,840 --> 00:32:44,640
Speaker 2: that's never been interesting to me. The way I've always edited,

672
00:32:44,680 --> 00:32:48,160
Speaker 2: the way I've always thought about content is not through

673
00:32:48,200 --> 00:32:52,440
Speaker 2: the eyes of me to them, but from through their

674
00:32:52,520 --> 00:32:55,080
Speaker 2: eyes what they can see, what they can hear.

675
00:32:55,520 --> 00:32:56,480
Speaker 1: And who's your consumer?

676
00:32:56,520 --> 00:32:58,440
Speaker 2: Other words, Yeah, who's your consumer? And always be the

677
00:32:58,440 --> 00:32:59,640
Speaker 2: eyes and ears of your consumer.

678
00:33:00,200 --> 00:33:03,000
Speaker 1: That's that's And how would you find out what your

679
00:33:03,080 --> 00:33:05,840
Speaker 1: consumer wanted? I mean, I mean, you're a survey of

680
00:33:06,120 --> 00:33:08,600
Speaker 1: you're an end of one, you know, just one in

681
00:33:08,680 --> 00:33:11,480
Speaker 1: the whole algorithm. So it's good to look at yourself

682
00:33:11,520 --> 00:33:13,680
Speaker 1: what I think I would like to see as a consumer,

683
00:33:13,720 --> 00:33:16,960
Speaker 1: But how do you find out what your consumers wanted?

684
00:33:17,000 --> 00:33:19,640
Speaker 1: I mean, would you let's just elevation now from the

685
00:33:19,680 --> 00:33:22,720
Speaker 1: nineteen year old just started. Yeah, and you became the editor.

686
00:33:22,840 --> 00:33:24,760
Speaker 1: You became the editor of which magazine? Cosmo?

687
00:33:24,800 --> 00:33:25,320
Speaker 2: Adam Cosmo?

688
00:33:25,400 --> 00:33:28,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, you become the out of Cosmo. How would

689
00:33:28,560 --> 00:33:29,680
Speaker 1: you say? What would you say to your team in

690
00:33:29,760 --> 00:33:32,680
Speaker 1: terms of finding out at that point what your audience wants?

691
00:33:32,880 --> 00:33:34,080
Speaker 1: Was it? Survey based.

692
00:33:35,320 --> 00:33:38,880
Speaker 2: Surveys are always unreliable, so as market research because you'll

693
00:33:38,880 --> 00:33:41,880
Speaker 2: often you know, those those market researchers. Back in the

694
00:33:41,880 --> 00:33:47,240
Speaker 2: magazine days, people would say, like, numbers don't lie. So

695
00:33:47,240 --> 00:33:49,880
Speaker 2: people would say, oh, you should have more interesting people

696
00:33:49,880 --> 00:33:52,200
Speaker 2: on the cover, Like you know, I remember someone saying

697
00:33:52,200 --> 00:33:53,920
Speaker 2: to me in the nineties, you should have like Natasha

698
00:33:53,960 --> 00:33:56,040
Speaker 2: Stott to spoiler on the cover. She was the head

699
00:33:56,080 --> 00:34:00,520
Speaker 2: of the Democrat Party back then. And it's like, oh,

700
00:34:00,560 --> 00:34:01,920
Speaker 2: you should have this one on the cover or that

701
00:34:01,960 --> 00:34:05,480
Speaker 2: one on the cover. But the covers that sold were

702
00:34:05,560 --> 00:34:08,520
Speaker 2: very different. So what people say they want and what

703
00:34:08,560 --> 00:34:12,319
Speaker 2: they actually want. The numbers don't lie, and same with

704
00:34:12,680 --> 00:34:15,359
Speaker 2: digital even more so now. But in terms of how

705
00:34:15,520 --> 00:34:18,960
Speaker 2: before we had this intense feedback loop that digital media

706
00:34:19,000 --> 00:34:21,480
Speaker 2: gives you where you are not short of anyone's opinion

707
00:34:21,520 --> 00:34:24,200
Speaker 2: in real time, and the analytics that you have can

708
00:34:24,280 --> 00:34:30,759
Speaker 2: literally show you what works and what doesn't work. Back then,

709
00:34:31,160 --> 00:34:34,799
Speaker 2: I've always had this real split in me because I'm

710
00:34:34,840 --> 00:34:37,920
Speaker 2: such a consumer of women's media. I'm always able to

711
00:34:38,000 --> 00:34:43,080
Speaker 2: split between me and the creator and me and the consumer,

712
00:34:43,120 --> 00:34:45,560
Speaker 2: and I'm always just able to flip. I I can't

713
00:34:45,560 --> 00:34:48,160
Speaker 2: even explain it. But sometimes when I'm talking to people,

714
00:34:48,239 --> 00:34:52,640
Speaker 2: I'll say I don't understand that headline. I'm really confused

715
00:34:53,440 --> 00:34:56,759
Speaker 2: by what And they're like, but you you know what

716
00:34:56,840 --> 00:35:00,080
Speaker 2: that headline? I don't mean me? MEA, I mean me.

717
00:35:00,480 --> 00:35:03,560
Speaker 2: I'll slip into first person as the voice of the

718
00:35:03,600 --> 00:35:06,160
Speaker 2: audience in their shoes, yeah, walking in her shoes, and

719
00:35:06,239 --> 00:35:09,480
Speaker 2: someone who comes to it without assumed knowledge, without having

720
00:35:09,560 --> 00:35:12,560
Speaker 2: read the whole article. She's just reading the headline. That

721
00:35:12,600 --> 00:35:15,000
Speaker 2: doesn't make sense. That headline only makes sense if you've

722
00:35:15,040 --> 00:35:17,600
Speaker 2: read the whole article. And I'm just able to flip.

723
00:35:17,640 --> 00:35:19,880
Speaker 2: I can't explain how I'm just always able to flip

724
00:35:20,200 --> 00:35:24,800
Speaker 2: and put myself in the shoes of other women.

725
00:35:25,239 --> 00:35:28,359
Speaker 1: Do you think it's fair to say, because I've noticed

726
00:35:28,400 --> 00:35:33,800
Speaker 1: this sometimes that when experts on a topic have conversations,

727
00:35:34,880 --> 00:35:37,319
Speaker 1: they're generally speaking when they're talking to an audience, having

728
00:35:37,320 --> 00:35:39,520
Speaker 1: a conversation with themselves about what they know, as opposed

729
00:35:39,520 --> 00:35:41,360
Speaker 1: to having conversation with the audience about what the audience

730
00:35:41,400 --> 00:35:43,560
Speaker 1: is actually out there to find out about them. You know,

731
00:35:44,880 --> 00:35:47,360
Speaker 1: we all can do it. We tend to. And I

732
00:35:47,400 --> 00:35:48,560
Speaker 1: know what happens to him when it comes to the

733
00:35:48,560 --> 00:35:51,680
Speaker 1: interest rates. I forget that I've got an audiences doesn't

734
00:35:51,680 --> 00:35:54,640
Speaker 1: know maybe anything about interest rates and just wants me

735
00:35:54,719 --> 00:35:56,680
Speaker 1: to break it down from a certain way. But I

736
00:35:56,840 --> 00:35:59,320
Speaker 1: sometimes I slip into the same mistake all the time

737
00:35:59,680 --> 00:36:02,960
Speaker 1: is start having a conversation with myself with Mark. It's

738
00:36:03,040 --> 00:36:04,040
Speaker 1: Mark talking to Mark.

739
00:36:04,360 --> 00:36:04,640
Speaker 2: Yeah.

740
00:36:04,680 --> 00:36:07,719
Speaker 1: And in your case, you've got experts who know where

741
00:36:07,719 --> 00:36:09,560
Speaker 1: the topic is, and they therefore they put the headline

742
00:36:09,600 --> 00:36:13,759
Speaker 1: up that reads well to themselves writing a speech and

743
00:36:13,760 --> 00:36:16,239
Speaker 1: then getting up and speaking what you wrote, and it

744
00:36:16,280 --> 00:36:19,959
Speaker 1: sounds completely this sound sounds really dull relative to what.

745
00:36:19,880 --> 00:36:22,120
Speaker 2: You've always got to be a clean skin like you know,

746
00:36:22,200 --> 00:36:24,120
Speaker 2: if I'm thinking about the first thing I asked you

747
00:36:24,160 --> 00:36:25,560
Speaker 2: when we sat down was just tell me a bit

748
00:36:25,560 --> 00:36:28,200
Speaker 2: about your audience, because I'm thinking about what's going to

749
00:36:28,200 --> 00:36:31,399
Speaker 2: be interesting to your audience. Because I will, I will

750
00:36:31,400 --> 00:36:35,120
Speaker 2: give different answers than if I was doing a podcast

751
00:36:35,160 --> 00:36:38,680
Speaker 2: about fashion, or a podcast pitch to women in business,

752
00:36:38,760 --> 00:36:44,600
Speaker 2: or a podcast pitch to you know, news or content creators.

753
00:36:44,880 --> 00:36:48,440
Speaker 2: And it's not that the answers aren't authentic, but it's like, Okay,

754
00:36:48,520 --> 00:36:51,479
Speaker 2: I need to thin, slice and package up the most

755
00:36:51,480 --> 00:36:54,919
Speaker 2: interesting thing for this audience in a way that's most

756
00:36:54,960 --> 00:36:57,120
Speaker 2: interesting to them, not what do I want to talk

757
00:36:57,160 --> 00:36:58,799
Speaker 2: about today, because that's a whole other thing.

758
00:36:58,960 --> 00:36:59,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, we're not sitting down.

759
00:37:00,360 --> 00:37:01,799
Speaker 2: We're not here to hear what I want to talk

760
00:37:01,800 --> 00:37:02,640
Speaker 2: about y or.

761
00:37:02,600 --> 00:37:04,560
Speaker 1: Me for that matter. And by the way, that's part

762
00:37:04,560 --> 00:37:06,640
Speaker 1: of the skill of podcasting, isn't it. Like I mean,

763
00:37:07,239 --> 00:37:09,600
Speaker 1: it's about my audience doesn't really give it down what

764
00:37:09,640 --> 00:37:11,480
Speaker 1: I think anyway. They're more interested in hearing what me

765
00:37:11,760 --> 00:37:12,280
Speaker 1: for even.

766
00:37:12,480 --> 00:37:26,399
Speaker 2: I don't know. I think podcasting is different. I think

767
00:37:26,440 --> 00:37:28,680
Speaker 2: podcasting is different. I think that you know and you

768
00:37:28,719 --> 00:37:30,080
Speaker 2: look at all you have to do is look at

769
00:37:30,120 --> 00:37:33,799
Speaker 2: the US election. I think the difference between podcasting and

770
00:37:33,880 --> 00:37:38,480
Speaker 2: traditional interviewing on news media like say seven thirty or

771
00:37:38,520 --> 00:37:39,600
Speaker 2: sixty minutes.

772
00:37:39,280 --> 00:37:40,240
Speaker 1: A three minute clip.

773
00:37:40,680 --> 00:37:45,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's that. And it's also that's about I get you,

774
00:37:45,600 --> 00:37:49,040
Speaker 2: whereas a podcast is about getting to know you. And

775
00:37:49,040 --> 00:37:52,120
Speaker 2: that's why Donald Trump went to Austin and sat down

776
00:37:52,120 --> 00:37:54,719
Speaker 2: for Joe Rogan for three hours, and that was a

777
00:37:54,760 --> 00:37:59,160
Speaker 2: really smart use of his time. And the other biggest

778
00:37:59,160 --> 00:38:02,000
Speaker 2: cut through was Kamala Harris's interview with Alex Cooper from

779
00:38:02,040 --> 00:38:05,480
Speaker 2: Call Her Daddy, which she paid for Alex to come

780
00:38:05,520 --> 00:38:09,200
Speaker 2: to her, but still did it in Alex's format. So

781
00:38:10,000 --> 00:38:13,200
Speaker 2: you know, it's interesting you look at we've just seen

782
00:38:13,239 --> 00:38:15,799
Speaker 2: the first podcast election and we've got our election in

783
00:38:15,840 --> 00:38:19,120
Speaker 2: Australia next year, and it will be really interesting to

784
00:38:19,120 --> 00:38:22,120
Speaker 2: see what happens because at the last election, I remember

785
00:38:22,160 --> 00:38:26,600
Speaker 2: so clearly. You know where the biggest women's media company

786
00:38:26,680 --> 00:38:29,600
Speaker 2: in the world in Australia we speak to We have

787
00:38:29,640 --> 00:38:31,680
Speaker 2: the biggest podcast network in the world. We speak to

788
00:38:31,719 --> 00:38:36,560
Speaker 2: eight million Australian women every month. Anthony Albernezi straight away, Yes,

789
00:38:36,600 --> 00:38:38,600
Speaker 2: I'll come talk to you, I'll sit down, do no filter.

790
00:38:39,040 --> 00:38:41,680
Speaker 2: Scott Morrison wouldn't have a bar of us would not

791
00:38:41,760 --> 00:38:43,759
Speaker 2: do it. And I remember, it's not like he wasn't here,

792
00:38:43,760 --> 00:38:45,839
Speaker 2: because he came in and talk to you, And I

793
00:38:45,840 --> 00:38:48,879
Speaker 2: remember that day. I'm like, he's literally up the road

794
00:38:48,880 --> 00:38:51,960
Speaker 2: because we are one hundred meters down the road our office,

795
00:38:52,080 --> 00:38:53,600
Speaker 2: and he wouldn't come to Mamma Mia.

796
00:38:53,960 --> 00:38:55,320
Speaker 1: He didn't ask, he refused.

797
00:38:55,360 --> 00:38:58,040
Speaker 2: Oh, we asked him for months. We asked as we said,

798
00:38:58,080 --> 00:38:59,960
Speaker 2: it's not a gotcha, we just want to sit down.

799
00:39:00,360 --> 00:39:02,320
Speaker 2: Anthony Aberneze has come on no filter. We want to

800
00:39:02,320 --> 00:39:05,160
Speaker 2: give you the same opportunity. I mean, you know, I'm

801
00:39:05,160 --> 00:39:07,480
Speaker 2: not Lee Sales. I'm not going to give him a grilling.

802
00:39:07,640 --> 00:39:09,399
Speaker 2: It was just an open invitation with no.

803
00:39:10,800 --> 00:39:13,160
Speaker 1: Probably should totally sales too, to be frank with him,

804
00:39:13,200 --> 00:39:15,400
Speaker 1: and he did, Yeah, of course he did, but he should.

805
00:39:16,080 --> 00:39:19,080
Speaker 2: But I'm not saying it's in instead of but the

806
00:39:19,239 --> 00:39:21,759
Speaker 2: fact that he was always and Tony Abbott was the same.

807
00:39:21,760 --> 00:39:25,040
Speaker 2: I've interviewed every Australian Prime minister since i've you know,

808
00:39:25,360 --> 00:39:28,000
Speaker 2: over the last fifteen years, except for Tony Abbot and

809
00:39:28,000 --> 00:39:31,719
Speaker 2: Scott Morrison, who would not sit down with me. And

810
00:39:31,760 --> 00:39:36,720
Speaker 2: it's like, why why would you? And it's not about

811
00:39:36,760 --> 00:39:39,560
Speaker 2: me anyone at Muma Mea. They would not engage with

812
00:39:39,640 --> 00:39:41,880
Speaker 2: Muma Mea. They gave interviews to all kinds of people

813
00:39:42,160 --> 00:39:45,120
Speaker 2: you twice, but they would not give an interview to

814
00:39:45,200 --> 00:39:48,680
Speaker 2: the biggest women's media company in Australia. What does that say,

815
00:39:49,200 --> 00:39:52,160
Speaker 2: you know, we're talking earlier about attitudes to women. What

816
00:39:52,280 --> 00:39:57,279
Speaker 2: does that say about their understanding of fifty percent of

817
00:39:57,320 --> 00:40:00,279
Speaker 2: their electorate fifty one percent of their electorate actually or

818
00:40:00,480 --> 00:40:05,200
Speaker 2: they're disdained for and their understanding of the influence that

819
00:40:05,239 --> 00:40:07,760
Speaker 2: women have. Like it's almost like these men have such

820
00:40:09,000 --> 00:40:11,640
Speaker 2: old fashioned ideas about women. It's like, oh, they'll just

821
00:40:11,680 --> 00:40:15,000
Speaker 2: vote the way their husband tells them, Like, I don't

822
00:40:15,000 --> 00:40:17,080
Speaker 2: know what they would think. It didn't go well for

823
00:40:17,160 --> 00:40:17,759
Speaker 2: either of them.

824
00:40:17,880 --> 00:40:21,120
Speaker 1: That's sort of the assumption anyone could make, whether they

825
00:40:21,120 --> 00:40:25,000
Speaker 1: think that way or not. It could be definitely different

826
00:40:25,000 --> 00:40:27,360
Speaker 1: assumption century who.

827
00:40:27,160 --> 00:40:29,279
Speaker 2: Could make the assumption that women will just vote the

828
00:40:29,320 --> 00:40:31,120
Speaker 2: way their men tell them.

829
00:40:30,960 --> 00:40:34,960
Speaker 1: To What's interesting as Peter Dutton reached out to you.

830
00:40:34,280 --> 00:40:36,920
Speaker 2: No, but we've reached out to him, so we've opened

831
00:40:37,040 --> 00:40:39,799
Speaker 2: up an invitation for you know, we know that the

832
00:40:39,960 --> 00:40:41,880
Speaker 2: election is going to be sometime in the next nine months.

833
00:40:42,080 --> 00:40:44,480
Speaker 2: The invitations there for Peter Dutton to come on mom

834
00:40:44,520 --> 00:40:47,160
Speaker 2: a Mayor Out Loud, which is our flagship show and

835
00:40:47,200 --> 00:40:49,880
Speaker 2: it's the third biggest podcast in Australia of any kind.

836
00:40:50,800 --> 00:40:54,840
Speaker 2: And of course Anthony Albanezy now I hope, like it

837
00:40:54,840 --> 00:40:57,000
Speaker 2: would be madness for him not to. We've seen what

838
00:40:57,080 --> 00:40:59,040
Speaker 2: happened in America. Like I think one of the biggest

839
00:40:59,080 --> 00:41:01,120
Speaker 2: mistakes come in and made not going to sit down

840
00:41:01,160 --> 00:41:05,480
Speaker 2: with Joe Rogan. I think that was a real, really

841
00:41:05,480 --> 00:41:08,520
Speaker 2: missed opportunity. I'm not saying it would have moved the election,

842
00:41:09,040 --> 00:41:13,480
Speaker 2: but I just think that idea of is really old fashioned.

843
00:41:13,560 --> 00:41:15,880
Speaker 2: Scott will only talk to you, and Abbott will only

844
00:41:15,880 --> 00:41:18,560
Speaker 2: talk to you because you're a man, like we won't

845
00:41:18,560 --> 00:41:22,160
Speaker 2: talk to It's like, come on, those days are over.

846
00:41:22,560 --> 00:41:25,640
Speaker 1: That's really interesting. You should make that point because don't

847
00:41:25,680 --> 00:41:29,680
Speaker 1: actually is coming on our show and they reach out

848
00:41:29,680 --> 00:41:32,000
Speaker 1: to us. But of course that's the thing.

849
00:41:32,160 --> 00:41:33,960
Speaker 2: I would reach out to you, but it won't occur

850
00:41:34,040 --> 00:41:37,440
Speaker 2: to them. Even though women are responsible for it's I

851
00:41:37,520 --> 00:41:41,680
Speaker 2: think it's eighty percent of purchasing decisions in Australia. This

852
00:41:41,760 --> 00:41:45,920
Speaker 2: is why smart advertisers advertised to women because this idea

853
00:41:46,000 --> 00:41:48,600
Speaker 2: that women and not Women aren't just responsible for like

854
00:41:48,920 --> 00:41:57,080
Speaker 2: buying the breakfast cereal and the washing powder, finance, investment, insurance, banking, cars,

855
00:41:57,560 --> 00:42:03,680
Speaker 2: real estate. Women are incredibly influential, if not entirely responsible

856
00:42:04,160 --> 00:42:05,480
Speaker 2: for making those decisions.

857
00:42:05,800 --> 00:42:07,480
Speaker 1: That's our experience in the lending business.

858
00:42:07,560 --> 00:42:10,400
Speaker 2: The purchasing power of women is extraordinary. The voting power

859
00:42:10,400 --> 00:42:13,400
Speaker 2: of women is extraordinary. And the thing about women is

860
00:42:13,440 --> 00:42:18,799
Speaker 2: that women are kind of programmed to be viral. Like

861
00:42:19,360 --> 00:42:22,560
Speaker 2: the word of mouth and the amplification of your message

862
00:42:23,000 --> 00:42:25,560
Speaker 2: when you put it in the mouths of women or

863
00:42:25,600 --> 00:42:29,399
Speaker 2: you can get women to engage with you is I'm told, look,

864
00:42:29,480 --> 00:42:30,480
Speaker 2: men don't amplify.

865
00:42:31,200 --> 00:42:32,560
Speaker 1: What would you say to Peter Dutton because I want

866
00:42:32,560 --> 00:42:34,000
Speaker 1: to show him this clip when he comes on in

867
00:42:34,080 --> 00:42:37,440
Speaker 1: the show, What would you say to Peter in this camera?

868
00:42:37,680 --> 00:42:40,840
Speaker 2: I'm not going to look down the camera because, to

869
00:42:40,920 --> 00:42:44,319
Speaker 2: be honest, I think Peter Dutton needs women more than

870
00:42:44,360 --> 00:42:47,799
Speaker 2: women need Peter Dutton. I think it's I think it's

871
00:42:47,840 --> 00:42:50,960
Speaker 2: his game to lose in that sense in winning the

872
00:42:51,000 --> 00:42:52,120
Speaker 2: hearts and minds of women.

873
00:42:53,360 --> 00:42:54,560
Speaker 1: Do you just need to win them or does he

874
00:42:54,640 --> 00:42:56,120
Speaker 1: just need to introduce himself at least?

875
00:42:56,239 --> 00:42:58,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think it's that and I mean it used

876
00:42:58,719 --> 00:43:00,359
Speaker 2: to be oh, they'd go and do an in view

877
00:43:00,520 --> 00:43:03,200
Speaker 2: with the Women's Weekly, which Scott Morrison did last election

878
00:43:03,280 --> 00:43:05,760
Speaker 2: campaign and he did sixty minutes and he played his ukoleli.

879
00:43:06,800 --> 00:43:11,239
Speaker 2: But that part of the audience is absolutely dwindling. Like

880
00:43:11,280 --> 00:43:13,840
Speaker 2: if you want to reach women over the age of

881
00:43:13,880 --> 00:43:19,279
Speaker 2: eighteen up to about fifty five, you know, Mum and

882
00:43:19,320 --> 00:43:23,240
Speaker 2: Maya is where they are. We've got sixty four different

883
00:43:23,280 --> 00:43:27,200
Speaker 2: podcasts we've got, you know, between our social our written content.

884
00:43:29,320 --> 00:43:33,279
Speaker 2: This idea that women are somehow a niche is just

885
00:43:34,360 --> 00:43:36,000
Speaker 2: kind of well, it is laughable.

886
00:43:36,200 --> 00:43:38,759
Speaker 1: We'll given the voting in this country's compulsory to It

887
00:43:38,760 --> 00:43:41,359
Speaker 1: just doesn't make sense mathematic right. I mean it's funny

888
00:43:41,400 --> 00:43:48,520
Speaker 1: you should say that about Morrison because I've invited Elbow

889
00:43:48,560 --> 00:43:53,000
Speaker 1: in this show and Jim Charmers so many times.

890
00:43:52,680 --> 00:43:53,319
Speaker 2: And they won't come.

891
00:43:53,400 --> 00:43:57,160
Speaker 1: They won't come on my show, which is interesting he

892
00:43:57,239 --> 00:43:59,359
Speaker 1: goes on your show. I don't know if it's in

893
00:43:59,360 --> 00:44:03,319
Speaker 1: my case on an think it's necessarily my audience, and

894
00:44:03,360 --> 00:44:06,759
Speaker 1: I don't think it's necessarily men versus women or their views.

895
00:44:06,840 --> 00:44:09,120
Speaker 1: I think it's more about what they think my politics is.

896
00:44:09,160 --> 00:44:11,200
Speaker 1: Because I've had Scott Morrison on and I'm not going

897
00:44:11,280 --> 00:44:13,319
Speaker 1: to I'm not here to pull olbos pants and I

898
00:44:13,320 --> 00:44:14,480
Speaker 1: just want to talk to about his story.

899
00:44:14,680 --> 00:44:16,359
Speaker 2: Of course, that's what my shows, of course, And that's

900
00:44:16,360 --> 00:44:19,319
Speaker 2: the thing it's getting to. It's not a gotcha anyone

901
00:44:19,480 --> 00:44:24,600
Speaker 2: that political leaders and their advisors have not got that

902
00:44:24,719 --> 00:44:28,399
Speaker 2: message that podcasts aren't a hostile environment. I mean, I'm

903
00:44:28,400 --> 00:44:33,880
Speaker 2: not Lesa Ales, you're not Kerry O'Brien, like if only

904
00:44:34,000 --> 00:44:36,200
Speaker 2: I bow down to those people. But that's not what

905
00:44:36,280 --> 00:44:39,920
Speaker 2: a podcast is. It's just not and it actually is

906
00:44:39,960 --> 00:44:47,680
Speaker 2: the best way for someone to introduce themselves and to yeah,

907
00:44:47,760 --> 00:44:49,719
Speaker 2: tell people who they are. And it's like, you know,

908
00:44:50,120 --> 00:44:52,759
Speaker 2: I wouldn't be interested. I'm not the best person and

909
00:44:52,800 --> 00:44:55,120
Speaker 2: out with Cooper said this when she interviewed Kamala to

910
00:44:55,200 --> 00:44:58,120
Speaker 2: sit down and talk about fracking and talk about the

911
00:44:58,160 --> 00:45:03,520
Speaker 2: economy necessarily, but she spoke to her about reproductive rights

912
00:45:03,520 --> 00:45:06,120
Speaker 2: and about abortion because that is such a critical issue

913
00:45:06,120 --> 00:45:07,520
Speaker 2: for women. As it turned out, it wasn't such a

914
00:45:07,560 --> 00:45:11,719
Speaker 2: critical issue when it came to voting. But there's just

915
00:45:11,760 --> 00:45:14,640
Speaker 2: not a lot of downside. There's not a lot of

916
00:45:14,680 --> 00:45:19,120
Speaker 2: downside because I think what people expect now not just

917
00:45:19,120 --> 00:45:24,040
Speaker 2: from politicians, but from public figures. Is not just a

918
00:45:24,160 --> 00:45:27,640
Speaker 2: sound bite, you know, it's to understand or who are

919
00:45:27,680 --> 00:45:30,200
Speaker 2: they really? Because if there's one thing people can always

920
00:45:30,200 --> 00:45:32,359
Speaker 2: say about Donald Trump, you know who he is.

921
00:45:32,600 --> 00:45:33,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, you know what you're going to get.

922
00:45:33,719 --> 00:45:35,719
Speaker 2: You know what you're going to get, and whether you

923
00:45:35,760 --> 00:45:40,480
Speaker 2: think what you get is awful or spectacular, you know.

924
00:45:41,080 --> 00:45:43,560
Speaker 2: And going into this election in the US, I think

925
00:45:43,560 --> 00:45:45,560
Speaker 2: it was eighty five percent of people said they will

926
00:45:45,600 --> 00:45:48,439
Speaker 2: not have their mind changed about Donald Trump, no matter

927
00:45:48,440 --> 00:45:51,080
Speaker 2: what they thought about him, good or bad. Their mind

928
00:45:51,160 --> 00:45:53,600
Speaker 2: was made up and nothing that could be said or

929
00:45:53,640 --> 00:45:57,200
Speaker 2: done to change their mind. And I think that's really interesting.

930
00:45:57,600 --> 00:46:02,200
Speaker 1: Do you think that in terms of Trump anyway? Do

931
00:46:02,239 --> 00:46:05,480
Speaker 1: you think his propensity that I just don't care what

932
00:46:05,520 --> 00:46:07,960
Speaker 1: people think. I'll go on any podcast.

933
00:46:08,040 --> 00:46:09,840
Speaker 2: Do you think it's his sor But he didn't and

934
00:46:09,880 --> 00:46:12,680
Speaker 2: go on Alex Cooper, So he only what goes on friendly,

935
00:46:12,840 --> 00:46:15,440
Speaker 2: He only goes on friendlies. And I understand like politicians

936
00:46:15,440 --> 00:46:20,560
Speaker 2: go on friendly want to do Rogan Rogan was Necessarilyrogan's

937
00:46:20,640 --> 00:46:23,080
Speaker 2: very friendly. Rogan very friendly, and I think he would

938
00:46:23,080 --> 00:46:24,600
Speaker 2: have been fine to cume Ala and I think he would

939
00:46:24,600 --> 00:46:29,880
Speaker 2: have been awful. But to Donald Trump, he was very friendly,

940
00:46:30,080 --> 00:46:32,800
Speaker 2: like very friendly.

941
00:46:32,480 --> 00:46:35,640
Speaker 1: As opposed to not being unfriendly well.

942
00:46:35,400 --> 00:46:37,880
Speaker 2: As opposed to like calling him out on his bullshit,

943
00:46:38,120 --> 00:46:40,759
Speaker 2: Like he's not going to do that because that's just

944
00:46:40,840 --> 00:46:43,600
Speaker 2: not the kind of podcast that he has. Yeah, you know,

945
00:46:43,960 --> 00:46:46,439
Speaker 2: like you can go on to Rogan and pretty much

946
00:46:46,480 --> 00:46:48,920
Speaker 2: talk about yourself for three hours and he'll just kind

947
00:46:49,000 --> 00:46:50,400
Speaker 2: of let.

948
00:46:50,239 --> 00:46:53,200
Speaker 1: You, Yeah, which is sort of what both of us do.

949
00:46:53,360 --> 00:46:56,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, for sure, exactly. We're not interested in having someone

950
00:46:56,160 --> 00:46:57,680
Speaker 2: there to tell them what we think.

951
00:46:57,880 --> 00:46:58,840
Speaker 1: That's an podcast.

952
00:46:59,040 --> 00:47:03,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's our podcast work. And that's why podcasts are

953
00:47:03,920 --> 00:47:05,880
Speaker 2: in Dex so much higher for women than they do

954
00:47:05,960 --> 00:47:09,600
Speaker 2: for men. And that's why for us at mum and MEA,

955
00:47:09,920 --> 00:47:12,080
Speaker 2: so much of our business is built on audio and

956
00:47:12,120 --> 00:47:13,520
Speaker 2: on our podcast network.

957
00:47:13,640 --> 00:47:16,040
Speaker 1: Can I go back to momom me? Then just kicked

958
00:47:16,080 --> 00:47:17,760
Speaker 1: off early two thousands.

959
00:47:18,239 --> 00:47:22,440
Speaker 2: Two thousands, two thousand and eight, actually yeah, sorry, two

960
00:47:22,440 --> 00:47:24,360
Speaker 2: thousand and yet started as a blog yeap.

961
00:47:24,280 --> 00:47:25,759
Speaker 1: Just me blogs is a thing.

962
00:47:26,040 --> 00:47:28,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, it was just someone writing on the internet really,

963
00:47:28,320 --> 00:47:30,680
Speaker 2: and it wasn't a personal blog, so it was always

964
00:47:30,760 --> 00:47:33,880
Speaker 2: going to be about, you know, just what I wanted

965
00:47:33,880 --> 00:47:35,960
Speaker 2: to write about, really, what I thought might be interesting

966
00:47:36,000 --> 00:47:41,200
Speaker 2: to people because back in that time there were women's

967
00:47:41,440 --> 00:47:45,080
Speaker 2: women's websites were like, they were very net specific. They

968
00:47:45,080 --> 00:47:47,920
Speaker 2: were about cooking, or they're about gossip, or they're about fashion,

969
00:47:47,960 --> 00:47:50,640
Speaker 2: or they're about parenting. And I was interested in all

970
00:47:50,680 --> 00:47:52,160
Speaker 2: of these things, but I was also interested in news

971
00:47:52,200 --> 00:47:54,200
Speaker 2: and pop culture, and every other woman I know was

972
00:47:54,239 --> 00:47:57,440
Speaker 2: not just interested in one of those things. So it

973
00:47:57,480 --> 00:48:00,680
Speaker 2: made sense to me to have a log and then

974
00:48:00,719 --> 00:48:03,319
Speaker 2: a website and our media company that covers all of

975
00:48:03,320 --> 00:48:06,319
Speaker 2: those things, because this idea of women's issues through a

976
00:48:06,320 --> 00:48:08,640
Speaker 2: different looking at the world through a female lens versus

977
00:48:08,640 --> 00:48:13,200
Speaker 2: women's issues. All issues are women's issues, but what we

978
00:48:13,239 --> 00:48:15,000
Speaker 2: do at Mum and mea I guess, is look at

979
00:48:15,000 --> 00:48:18,000
Speaker 2: it through a female lens, because most of the media

980
00:48:18,080 --> 00:48:19,960
Speaker 2: tends to look at it through a male lens, just

981
00:48:20,000 --> 00:48:23,600
Speaker 2: by virtue of the fact that most media companies, in fact,

982
00:48:23,600 --> 00:48:26,880
Speaker 2: pretty much all media companies are run by men. So

983
00:48:27,120 --> 00:48:30,240
Speaker 2: I just saw, you know, a gap in the market,

984
00:48:30,360 --> 00:48:32,319
Speaker 2: and then I established that there was a market in

985
00:48:32,360 --> 00:48:36,719
Speaker 2: that gap, and then I'd been growing an audience. But

986
00:48:36,840 --> 00:48:41,239
Speaker 2: I was a one woman operator, and I was completely exhausted,

987
00:48:41,480 --> 00:48:44,239
Speaker 2: and my husband had sold his business he'd been in

988
00:48:44,239 --> 00:48:46,600
Speaker 2: the liquor industry and he was looking for something to

989
00:48:46,640 --> 00:48:51,640
Speaker 2: invest his time in, and he'd sold his company and

990
00:48:51,800 --> 00:48:54,160
Speaker 2: so he came on board as a co founder after

991
00:48:54,160 --> 00:48:56,839
Speaker 2: about eighteen months, and he said, let's try and monetize

992
00:48:56,880 --> 00:48:59,799
Speaker 2: this in the next twelve months, or because I hadn't

993
00:48:59,800 --> 00:49:03,080
Speaker 2: earned it sent in two years, or it's time to

994
00:49:03,320 --> 00:49:04,799
Speaker 2: you know, it's going to be time to get another job,

995
00:49:04,840 --> 00:49:07,400
Speaker 2: because we've got a mortgage to pay. And so he

996
00:49:07,440 --> 00:49:10,319
Speaker 2: came on board and we did. We monetized it. We

997
00:49:10,320 --> 00:49:15,080
Speaker 2: were profitable, I think in that first year, which was

998
00:49:15,120 --> 00:49:17,440
Speaker 2: not as impressive as it sounds, because it was just

999
00:49:17,520 --> 00:49:19,880
Speaker 2: him and me and we weren't earning any money. There

1000
00:49:19,920 --> 00:49:24,160
Speaker 2: was no else to pay, so we were profitable. But

1001
00:49:24,280 --> 00:49:27,640
Speaker 2: then we just slowly moved into a little tiny office

1002
00:49:27,680 --> 00:49:30,759
Speaker 2: and slowly started hiring people. And of course nobody wanted

1003
00:49:30,800 --> 00:49:33,600
Speaker 2: to really come and do this thing. The internet was

1004
00:49:33,640 --> 00:49:38,439
Speaker 2: still a bit untested, and yeah, we we just grew

1005
00:49:38,520 --> 00:49:40,200
Speaker 2: from there, and now we've got about one hundred and

1006
00:49:40,239 --> 00:49:46,399
Speaker 2: fifty people, and yeah, we're sort of a pretty big bill.

1007
00:49:46,560 --> 00:49:48,400
Speaker 2: Not not a small business anymore.

1008
00:49:48,440 --> 00:49:51,560
Speaker 1: When two people husband and wife, Yeah, at the coffee

1009
00:49:51,600 --> 00:49:54,920
Speaker 1: table or whatever the kitchen table, and often wonder about

1010
00:49:56,280 --> 00:49:58,840
Speaker 1: let's say at that stage husband wasn't involved, and you

1011
00:49:58,880 --> 00:50:03,839
Speaker 1: were doing your blogs of is a blog for some

1012
00:50:03,880 --> 00:50:05,080
Speaker 1: people therapy?

1013
00:50:07,360 --> 00:50:09,600
Speaker 2: That's a really interesting it was for some people. I

1014
00:50:09,600 --> 00:50:13,719
Speaker 2: think what was amazing about the rise of blogging, particularly

1015
00:50:14,360 --> 00:50:17,960
Speaker 2: the parenting bloggers of around that time, which I never was,

1016
00:50:18,680 --> 00:50:21,440
Speaker 2: but I was very influenced by them. It was this

1017
00:50:21,640 --> 00:50:27,120
Speaker 2: very flourishing way of women to communicate to other women

1018
00:50:27,360 --> 00:50:29,879
Speaker 2: in a way where there was no gatekeeper, so there

1019
00:50:29,920 --> 00:50:33,200
Speaker 2: wasn't no edit, and there was no one saying, well,

1020
00:50:33,200 --> 00:50:35,840
Speaker 2: that's interesting to people or that's not interesting to people,

1021
00:50:36,800 --> 00:50:40,080
Speaker 2: and there was no goal is that going to be

1022
00:50:40,120 --> 00:50:42,160
Speaker 2: interesting to enough people to be able to monetize it

1023
00:50:42,200 --> 00:50:45,880
Speaker 2: through advertising. It was just women expressing how they felt

1024
00:50:45,880 --> 00:50:50,000
Speaker 2: about things, and it was an amazing time. It was

1025
00:50:50,160 --> 00:50:52,319
Speaker 2: fairly short lived, but it was an amazing time. And

1026
00:50:52,360 --> 00:50:56,719
Speaker 2: for me, I wasn't interested in writing personally, particularly, but

1027
00:50:56,840 --> 00:51:00,440
Speaker 2: I was interested in being the one. I've been an

1028
00:51:00,560 --> 00:51:03,560
Speaker 2: editor for so long and then an editor in chief

1029
00:51:03,600 --> 00:51:08,879
Speaker 2: with lots of magazines under me ACP, and I'd been

1030
00:51:08,920 --> 00:51:11,800
Speaker 2: sort of managing people and teaching other people and editing

1031
00:51:11,840 --> 00:51:14,279
Speaker 2: other people for so long. I've spent a lot of

1032
00:51:14,320 --> 00:51:17,000
Speaker 2: my career climbing up the ladder because I'm very ambitious,

1033
00:51:17,120 --> 00:51:20,120
Speaker 2: but then realizing I don't really like it up there,

1034
00:51:20,200 --> 00:51:22,480
Speaker 2: and climbing back down and wanting to get back to

1035
00:51:22,520 --> 00:51:25,520
Speaker 2: the cold face without anyone between me and an audience,

1036
00:51:25,560 --> 00:51:28,719
Speaker 2: and just wanting to communicate directly, and that's what I love,

1037
00:51:28,840 --> 00:51:31,840
Speaker 2: And ironically I'm in the process of that at the

1038
00:51:31,880 --> 00:51:34,320
Speaker 2: moment again, de escalating, coming back to the cold face

1039
00:51:34,520 --> 00:51:36,800
Speaker 2: where I can just create directly for an audience.

1040
00:51:37,280 --> 00:51:41,680
Speaker 1: And what are the signs that you and your husband

1041
00:51:42,640 --> 00:51:47,839
Speaker 1: saw that either encouraged him or you to think, how

1042
00:51:49,160 --> 00:51:51,719
Speaker 1: he's going to take on the co founder role and

1043
00:51:51,760 --> 00:51:54,520
Speaker 1: we're going to monetize this. What did you say exactly?

1044
00:51:54,560 --> 00:51:58,560
Speaker 2: What it was? No, there were probably about ten thousand

1045
00:51:58,600 --> 00:52:01,160
Speaker 2: or more people coming every day to read what I

1046
00:52:01,200 --> 00:52:02,919
Speaker 2: was writing. I was doing about six posts a day

1047
00:52:03,480 --> 00:52:06,120
Speaker 2: on my own per day. Per day I was there

1048
00:52:06,120 --> 00:52:08,760
Speaker 2: were thousands of comments. I was moderating every single comment

1049
00:52:08,920 --> 00:52:10,400
Speaker 2: like I had no one to work for me. It

1050
00:52:10,400 --> 00:52:12,760
Speaker 2: was literally me walking around with my laptop in my house.

1051
00:52:14,000 --> 00:52:16,400
Speaker 2: And then I had another baby during that time. But

1052
00:52:16,440 --> 00:52:18,759
Speaker 2: the reason that he realized there was something there is,

1053
00:52:18,880 --> 00:52:21,800
Speaker 2: because I kept getting approached by private equity who wanted

1054
00:52:21,840 --> 00:52:25,279
Speaker 2: to start things and get me to run them for them, and.

1055
00:52:25,200 --> 00:52:26,040
Speaker 1: He would come with me.

1056
00:52:26,880 --> 00:52:29,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, there was. There was a big thing at the

1057
00:52:29,560 --> 00:52:31,400
Speaker 2: time called Daily Candy Out of the US, which was

1058
00:52:31,400 --> 00:52:34,000
Speaker 2: a daily email that would like do a roundup of

1059
00:52:34,040 --> 00:52:37,120
Speaker 2: the best kind of deals and fashion things and various things.

1060
00:52:37,160 --> 00:52:40,520
Speaker 2: And so everyone wanted to to get into this women's

1061
00:52:40,520 --> 00:52:43,120
Speaker 2: digital space. And so I'd get Jason to come to

1062
00:52:43,160 --> 00:52:47,160
Speaker 2: these meetings with me and Jason Levine being my husband,

1063
00:52:47,200 --> 00:52:51,200
Speaker 2: and and you know, we went to a couple and

1064
00:52:51,360 --> 00:52:53,640
Speaker 2: it was like, why on earth would we go and

1065
00:52:53,680 --> 00:52:58,360
Speaker 2: work for these clowns to make something for women when

1066
00:52:58,920 --> 00:53:01,439
Speaker 2: I know how to do this. Let's just we're doing

1067
00:53:01,440 --> 00:53:03,319
Speaker 2: it like so that that's where he was like, well,

1068
00:53:03,360 --> 00:53:05,640
Speaker 2: if they can see something in it. And he was

1069
00:53:05,680 --> 00:53:09,240
Speaker 2: starting at Harvard at the time, and he used Mama

1070
00:53:09,239 --> 00:53:11,080
Speaker 2: Maya as because he didn't have his business. He just

1071
00:53:11,120 --> 00:53:13,479
Speaker 2: sold his business before he'd started this three year Harvard course,

1072
00:53:13,520 --> 00:53:16,040
Speaker 2: and he used Mama Mea as A as a model

1073
00:53:16,040 --> 00:53:18,080
Speaker 2: because they had to sort of plug in their business. Yeah,

1074
00:53:18,800 --> 00:53:20,520
Speaker 2: not a case study, but they had to plug in

1075
00:53:20,560 --> 00:53:23,319
Speaker 2: their own businesses to these things they were learning, and

1076
00:53:23,560 --> 00:53:25,600
Speaker 2: he used Mama Maya at the time, and it just

1077
00:53:25,680 --> 00:53:29,399
Speaker 2: made him see the potential there. And I was getting

1078
00:53:29,440 --> 00:53:32,040
Speaker 2: all these approaches, but I didn't have the bandwidth or

1079
00:53:32,680 --> 00:53:36,120
Speaker 2: the skills, to be honest, to monetize any of the

1080
00:53:36,120 --> 00:53:40,319
Speaker 2: approaches I was getting. So for a while, you know,

1081
00:53:40,440 --> 00:53:43,799
Speaker 2: he was managing me and people would get me to

1082
00:53:43,880 --> 00:53:46,239
Speaker 2: come and you know, they wanted me to be the

1083
00:53:46,400 --> 00:53:48,600
Speaker 2: brand ambassador for their whatever, and he would do those

1084
00:53:48,600 --> 00:53:53,799
Speaker 2: deals and then he's like, there's a business here potentially,

1085
00:53:54,239 --> 00:53:56,239
Speaker 2: and he could see that I was completely burning out

1086
00:53:56,280 --> 00:53:58,840
Speaker 2: and I didn't have a capacity to monetize it myself.

1087
00:53:59,160 --> 00:54:01,000
Speaker 2: And I also didn't I didn't have a business plan.

1088
00:54:01,040 --> 00:54:02,640
Speaker 2: I didn't know how to do a business plan. He

1089
00:54:02,800 --> 00:54:06,680
Speaker 2: was like, what's what's your exit? You're not and I'm like,

1090
00:54:06,960 --> 00:54:09,719
Speaker 2: I don't know. Rupert Murticle, come along and buy me.

1091
00:54:09,800 --> 00:54:11,680
Speaker 2: And he's like, by what it's You're on your laptop,

1092
00:54:11,719 --> 00:54:14,960
Speaker 2: there's nothing to buy. And I was like, I couldn't.

1093
00:54:15,080 --> 00:54:16,799
Speaker 2: I couldn't see that because I was just so caught

1094
00:54:16,880 --> 00:54:18,840
Speaker 2: up in it. And he was the one that's always

1095
00:54:18,880 --> 00:54:21,520
Speaker 2: had the vision. I've always been really good at this,

1096
00:54:21,880 --> 00:54:23,640
Speaker 2: and he's always been the one that can see over

1097
00:54:23,680 --> 00:54:25,520
Speaker 2: the horizon and been like, no, Mom and man needs

1098
00:54:25,560 --> 00:54:27,000
Speaker 2: to be a website that you edit, and I'm like,

1099
00:54:27,000 --> 00:54:29,759
Speaker 2: oh no, that'll never work. Or he's like, Mum and

1100
00:54:29,840 --> 00:54:31,799
Speaker 2: me needs to and I'm like, oh no, that'll never work,

1101
00:54:31,840 --> 00:54:33,920
Speaker 2: and then he's right, and he's right, and he's right.

1102
00:54:34,000 --> 00:54:37,960
Speaker 2: So we've been a really good combination, whereas he's very

1103
00:54:38,040 --> 00:54:42,000
Speaker 2: much steered the business and the financial side of it

1104
00:54:42,080 --> 00:54:44,880
Speaker 2: and everything other than the content, and I've steered the

1105
00:54:44,920 --> 00:54:49,160
Speaker 2: content and it's worked, you know, really well for seventeen

1106
00:54:49,239 --> 00:54:52,520
Speaker 2: years and one of the most dangerous times for any startup.

1107
00:54:52,560 --> 00:54:55,120
Speaker 2: And I'm much more suited to start up culture, I've realized.

1108
00:54:56,400 --> 00:54:59,799
Speaker 2: But he always had much bigger ambitions and the most

1109
00:55:00,000 --> 00:55:02,960
Speaker 2: angous time for a business we learned was, oh we

1110
00:55:03,040 --> 00:55:05,680
Speaker 2: knew was going from startup to scale up because culturally

1111
00:55:06,120 --> 00:55:08,359
Speaker 2: it's a big shift. The people that you hire as

1112
00:55:08,400 --> 00:55:12,200
Speaker 2: generalists you then move to needing specialists. It's a big

1113
00:55:12,320 --> 00:55:17,759
Speaker 2: risk moving up. And he managed us through that. He

1114
00:55:17,920 --> 00:55:20,600
Speaker 2: was now that he's been an outstanding CEO, managing through

1115
00:55:20,719 --> 00:55:23,880
Speaker 2: all of those rocky waters and through COVID and through

1116
00:55:24,200 --> 00:55:26,200
Speaker 2: we tried to you know, not everything we've done has worked.

1117
00:55:26,239 --> 00:55:28,480
Speaker 2: We tried to expand into the US, that didn't work,

1118
00:55:28,560 --> 00:55:32,000
Speaker 2: so we closed that down and decided to really focus here.

1119
00:55:33,520 --> 00:55:36,280
Speaker 2: But probably the biggest thing for us was when Facebook

1120
00:55:36,320 --> 00:55:38,880
Speaker 2: told everybody to pivot to video. They told publishers to

1121
00:55:38,880 --> 00:55:43,239
Speaker 2: pivot to video, and everybody sacked their riders, invested all

1122
00:55:43,239 --> 00:55:48,040
Speaker 2: this money, started making video, pivoted, and then Facebook quent

1123
00:55:48,680 --> 00:55:54,920
Speaker 2: ah yeah nah, yeah, And that was sort of the

1124
00:55:54,960 --> 00:55:58,680
Speaker 2: beginning of the end for the buzzfeeds, the vices, and

1125
00:55:58,719 --> 00:56:00,960
Speaker 2: they just ended up getting more and more investment, more

1126
00:56:01,000 --> 00:56:04,760
Speaker 2: and more, needing more and more, doing bigger and bigger

1127
00:56:04,760 --> 00:56:08,080
Speaker 2: cat raisers to fund this bigger and bigger expansion. And

1128
00:56:08,120 --> 00:56:11,400
Speaker 2: because we've never done that, we've always been in control

1129
00:56:11,440 --> 00:56:13,560
Speaker 2: of our own destiny. And that's a decision that Jason

1130
00:56:13,560 --> 00:56:16,759
Speaker 2: made because he knew that, you know, and I would say,

1131
00:56:16,880 --> 00:56:19,160
Speaker 2: how come they've got all this cup raising and we don't,

1132
00:56:19,680 --> 00:56:21,680
Speaker 2: and He's like, it means that we can make the

1133
00:56:21,719 --> 00:56:25,960
Speaker 2: best decisions for our business. So when everyone pivoted to video,

1134
00:56:26,520 --> 00:56:30,120
Speaker 2: we actually pivoted to audio, and that was before most

1135
00:56:30,120 --> 00:56:34,279
Speaker 2: people knew what a podcast was, and that ended up

1136
00:56:34,680 --> 00:56:36,160
Speaker 2: being a really, really good decision.

1137
00:56:36,160 --> 00:56:39,239
Speaker 1: For us. So I just want the co found a thing,

1138
00:56:39,280 --> 00:56:42,520
Speaker 1: because often people say to me, do I need to

1139
00:56:42,560 --> 00:56:44,640
Speaker 1: co founder? Or some people come to me and say

1140
00:56:45,040 --> 00:56:48,080
Speaker 1: I knew the co founder because they heard someone else

1141
00:56:48,120 --> 00:56:49,280
Speaker 1: say that you need a co founder.

1142
00:56:49,600 --> 00:56:50,840
Speaker 2: Well, I needed a co founder.

1143
00:56:50,960 --> 00:56:53,680
Speaker 1: Well is it better to say, though, mere that I'm

1144
00:56:53,719 --> 00:56:55,440
Speaker 1: really good at this, but I'm not so good at

1145
00:56:55,440 --> 00:56:57,840
Speaker 1: those things? Those things are important in my business. In

1146
00:56:57,920 --> 00:57:01,360
Speaker 1: the business, therefore, a co founder can do those things.

1147
00:57:01,560 --> 00:57:03,920
Speaker 1: Because you know, my old man is my dad, uses

1148
00:57:04,000 --> 00:57:06,320
Speaker 1: always say just always put up on a whiteboard what

1149
00:57:06,400 --> 00:57:09,719
Speaker 1: you're good at and what but equally, be honest, what's

1150
00:57:09,719 --> 00:57:13,319
Speaker 1: your crap at? And you know? And I often say

1151
00:57:13,480 --> 00:57:16,400
Speaker 1: my various businesses. And I've always had my brother involved,

1152
00:57:16,440 --> 00:57:18,960
Speaker 1: my younger brother involved as a lawyer. I say, I

1153
00:57:19,040 --> 00:57:23,040
Speaker 1: cut his sows, and you know, and if because he's

1154
00:57:23,080 --> 00:57:25,200
Speaker 1: he's really good at stitching things up, making really nice

1155
00:57:25,200 --> 00:57:28,160
Speaker 1: and neat and tighty and relevant, et cetera. Not in

1156
00:57:28,200 --> 00:57:31,560
Speaker 1: terms of content, but just in terms of structure finances.

1157
00:57:32,760 --> 00:57:35,040
Speaker 2: It can't need to break in an accelerator totally.

1158
00:57:35,720 --> 00:57:41,919
Speaker 1: They are. So did you did you me or sort

1159
00:57:41,920 --> 00:57:44,160
Speaker 1: of recognize that your husband had those qualities?

1160
00:57:44,320 --> 00:57:47,760
Speaker 2: Yes, I knew that I couldn't do because I was

1161
00:57:47,880 --> 00:57:50,360
Speaker 2: just all I knew I was really really good at

1162
00:57:50,360 --> 00:57:54,320
Speaker 2: this one thing, but I was not. There was this

1163
00:57:54,360 --> 00:57:57,000
Speaker 2: whole other thing that not only was I not good at,

1164
00:57:57,560 --> 00:58:00,640
Speaker 2: wasn't interested in coming at it, I didn't enjoy it.

1165
00:58:01,040 --> 00:58:03,240
Speaker 2: It wasn't a good use of my time doing this

1166
00:58:03,240 --> 00:58:06,400
Speaker 2: thing that I didn't understand or wasn't good at. And

1167
00:58:06,480 --> 00:58:09,320
Speaker 2: so for me, not only did Jas have skills that

1168
00:58:09,360 --> 00:58:13,200
Speaker 2: I didn't have in terms of business and finance, but

1169
00:58:13,560 --> 00:58:18,720
Speaker 2: he also had a different mindset. Because I have a

1170
00:58:18,840 --> 00:58:22,280
Speaker 2: high I have a low boredom threshold and a high

1171
00:58:22,320 --> 00:58:28,520
Speaker 2: appetite for risk. He is more cautious, and I think

1172
00:58:29,200 --> 00:58:33,480
Speaker 2: that has been in a business. If you just have

1173
00:58:34,840 --> 00:58:42,360
Speaker 2: unharnessed ambition or unharnessed risk appetite, that's really dangerous, both

1174
00:58:42,360 --> 00:58:44,960
Speaker 2: of you risky. Yeah, you can't. And so I think

1175
00:58:45,800 --> 00:58:48,600
Speaker 2: you know the best partnerships. And I've always said, you know,

1176
00:58:48,640 --> 00:58:51,560
Speaker 2: I ran this whole course part of the business for

1177
00:58:51,720 --> 00:58:53,640
Speaker 2: many years called Lady Startup, which is about helping women

1178
00:58:53,680 --> 00:58:56,280
Speaker 2: start businesses and about the co founder thing. I would

1179
00:58:56,320 --> 00:58:59,840
Speaker 2: always say exactly what you've said, which is either partner

1180
00:58:59,840 --> 00:59:03,200
Speaker 2: with someone who has different strengths to you or higher

1181
00:59:03,240 --> 00:59:05,480
Speaker 2: if you can afford to. And the problem is that

1182
00:59:05,520 --> 00:59:07,800
Speaker 2: most people their co founders will be like a friend

1183
00:59:08,520 --> 00:59:10,760
Speaker 2: or a sister or something and I had you know,

1184
00:59:11,000 --> 00:59:13,240
Speaker 2: they'll say, oh, this is my co founder. We're really different,

1185
00:59:13,400 --> 00:59:16,840
Speaker 2: like I'm this, and it's like your differences are like this.

1186
00:59:17,320 --> 00:59:19,680
Speaker 2: You need differences that are like this, like whether you're

1187
00:59:19,720 --> 00:59:21,080
Speaker 2: really you know, you look at some of the most

1188
00:59:21,080 --> 00:59:27,720
Speaker 2: successful partnerships in Australian business, Nicki and Simone Zimmermann, you know,

1189
00:59:28,920 --> 00:59:34,040
Speaker 2: clothing zimmm and sisters Yeah, Nick creative, Nicole is I

1190
00:59:34,080 --> 00:59:37,600
Speaker 2: think a lawyer by trade or maybe an accountant and

1191
00:59:37,680 --> 00:59:41,680
Speaker 2: so you know, they're very clear about who does what.

1192
00:59:41,960 --> 00:59:44,880
Speaker 2: And I think that that's been that's been the key

1193
00:59:44,880 --> 00:59:46,720
Speaker 2: for me and Jason. There's no way I could have

1194
00:59:46,760 --> 00:59:49,520
Speaker 2: done this without him, and you know he would have

1195
00:59:49,560 --> 00:59:51,360
Speaker 2: done something else without me, but it wouldn't have been

1196
00:59:51,360 --> 00:59:52,080
Speaker 2: this So.

1197
00:59:53,160 --> 00:59:56,040
Speaker 1: An important point here though, and I've seen this happen

1198
00:59:56,560 --> 00:59:59,640
Speaker 1: with people, especially husband and wife or a boyfriend, girlfriend

1199
00:59:59,760 --> 01:00:04,120
Speaker 1: or brother and sister, etc. Brothers and sisters. If you

1200
01:00:04,160 --> 01:00:07,040
Speaker 1: have somebody like you say, with your skills and things

1201
01:00:07,080 --> 01:00:10,000
Speaker 1: you like doing and with a high appetite for risk.

1202
01:00:10,680 --> 01:00:13,600
Speaker 1: You say, and this is sort of what you're explaining

1203
01:00:13,600 --> 01:00:14,960
Speaker 1: to it. You say, look, I want to do this,

1204
01:00:15,000 --> 01:00:16,440
Speaker 1: and he will come back and he'll say, well, wait

1205
01:00:16,480 --> 01:00:18,360
Speaker 1: a minute, let's just check this out and do a

1206
01:00:18,360 --> 01:00:20,120
Speaker 1: bit of analysis on and blah blah blah.

1207
01:00:20,240 --> 01:00:21,479
Speaker 2: Did you cut once?

1208
01:00:22,360 --> 01:00:24,320
Speaker 1: But would you ever get to the point where you'd say, well,

1209
01:00:24,320 --> 01:00:27,520
Speaker 1: hang on, don't you believe in me? Like this is

1210
01:00:27,520 --> 01:00:28,880
Speaker 1: what I believe in. Do you ever get to the

1211
01:00:28,880 --> 01:00:30,760
Speaker 1: point and say I just want you to believe in me,

1212
01:00:31,080 --> 01:00:33,040
Speaker 1: And he's going to say, well, hang on, I do

1213
01:00:33,080 --> 01:00:35,760
Speaker 1: believe in you, but my role is correct. Now how

1214
01:00:35,760 --> 01:00:37,880
Speaker 1: do you deal with that little a small conflict there?

1215
01:00:37,920 --> 01:00:40,040
Speaker 1: But would happened counseling?

1216
01:00:42,000 --> 01:00:46,000
Speaker 2: It was? It's really interesting we've come to really like

1217
01:00:46,160 --> 01:00:52,200
Speaker 2: I bristle at being held back and he bristles at

1218
01:00:52,280 --> 01:00:57,080
Speaker 2: me running headlong into something passionately. But what we've learned

1219
01:00:57,120 --> 01:01:00,000
Speaker 2: over the years is that is to trust each other.

1220
01:01:00,240 --> 01:01:04,200
Speaker 2: Like it's been proven time and time again that my

1221
01:01:04,400 --> 01:01:07,440
Speaker 2: instincts when I want to run hard at something I

1222
01:01:07,480 --> 01:01:11,160
Speaker 2: can't often explain. Like with podcasts, there was no business model.

1223
01:01:11,360 --> 01:01:13,360
Speaker 2: I just knew that it was something we had to do.

1224
01:01:13,440 --> 01:01:15,880
Speaker 2: And I remember getting up in a leadership team meeting

1225
01:01:16,240 --> 01:01:18,520
Speaker 2: and explaining podcasts and they all kind of like laughed

1226
01:01:18,560 --> 01:01:21,240
Speaker 2: at me and whatever, and I'm like, no, guys, like

1227
01:01:21,800 --> 01:01:23,320
Speaker 2: take this in. It's like, oh me, I' like we've

1228
01:01:23,320 --> 01:01:24,960
Speaker 2: got our business plan. We can't we do it. This

1229
01:01:25,000 --> 01:01:27,560
Speaker 2: is our strategy. We can't. And I'm like, and so

1230
01:01:27,680 --> 01:01:29,160
Speaker 2: I'll just go off and do it on my own.

1231
01:01:29,240 --> 01:01:31,800
Speaker 2: It's like Lady Startup. I just Jase walked past my

1232
01:01:31,800 --> 01:01:33,200
Speaker 2: office one day and I was on the floor and

1233
01:01:33,240 --> 01:01:34,840
Speaker 2: I was cutting things up, or maybe it was the

1234
01:01:35,000 --> 01:01:38,000
Speaker 2: Very Pery Summit and I was whatever, and he's like, oh, babe,

1235
01:01:38,040 --> 01:01:40,400
Speaker 2: you know what are you doing? What's and I said,

1236
01:01:40,440 --> 01:01:41,960
Speaker 2: and he goh, what's the business plan? I'm like, I'm

1237
01:01:41,960 --> 01:01:44,920
Speaker 2: not sure, Like what's the revenue attached to it? And

1238
01:01:44,920 --> 01:01:46,880
Speaker 2: I'm like, I'm not sure, but I'm sure I'll find it.

1239
01:01:47,480 --> 01:01:50,560
Speaker 2: And I always have, so, whether it's been podcasts, the

1240
01:01:50,840 --> 01:01:54,200
Speaker 2: Very Pery Summit that I did, or the Lady Startup.

1241
01:01:53,960 --> 01:01:56,280
Speaker 1: Courseause Erry menopause.

1242
01:01:56,360 --> 01:02:01,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, So they've all been like multimillion dollar become multimillion

1243
01:02:01,880 --> 01:02:05,560
Speaker 2: dollar parts of our business, but they didn't start off

1244
01:02:05,600 --> 01:02:07,439
Speaker 2: going how can we make a lot of money. It's

1245
01:02:07,480 --> 01:02:11,840
Speaker 2: been I've gone what walking in her shoes? What do

1246
01:02:11,880 --> 01:02:17,000
Speaker 2: women want? Okay? And then we find a way to

1247
01:02:17,160 --> 01:02:20,560
Speaker 2: make it financially viable to actually do it because we're

1248
01:02:20,600 --> 01:02:23,800
Speaker 2: not a charity, where a purpose driven business, and our

1249
01:02:23,800 --> 01:02:25,440
Speaker 2: purpose is to make the world a better place for

1250
01:02:25,480 --> 01:02:28,120
Speaker 2: women and girls. So I'm always looking at what can

1251
01:02:28,160 --> 01:02:32,960
Speaker 2: I make that fulfills that purpose. So yeah, that's kind

1252
01:02:32,960 --> 01:02:33,720
Speaker 2: of how it works.

1253
01:02:34,240 --> 01:02:37,320
Speaker 1: So can you just list out? I know you've got

1254
01:02:37,760 --> 01:02:40,600
Speaker 1: fifty odd podcasts or something like that in your group,

1255
01:02:41,320 --> 01:02:42,400
Speaker 1: and I don't want you to list every one of

1256
01:02:42,440 --> 01:02:47,120
Speaker 1: those out, but I would imagine. But could you just

1257
01:02:47,160 --> 01:02:49,560
Speaker 1: explain your model, mum? And mean model? Is it sort

1258
01:02:49,560 --> 01:02:51,600
Speaker 1: of an umbrella model that sort of sits Lots of

1259
01:02:51,640 --> 01:02:54,040
Speaker 1: other podcasters sit inside your model.

1260
01:02:54,080 --> 01:02:56,560
Speaker 2: So we are pure We're a pure podcast network, so

1261
01:02:56,600 --> 01:02:58,520
Speaker 2: we're all owned and operated, all and operated.

1262
01:02:58,640 --> 01:03:01,520
Speaker 1: So you go and find the talent to do a

1263
01:03:01,560 --> 01:03:03,280
Speaker 1: particular podcast theme or has it.

1264
01:03:03,360 --> 01:03:06,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, so we will. You know, our first podcast was

1265
01:03:06,400 --> 01:03:09,080
Speaker 2: Muma mea Out Loud, which is about sort of what

1266
01:03:09,080 --> 01:03:10,880
Speaker 2: women are talking about, and that's a daily it's now

1267
01:03:10,960 --> 01:03:14,120
Speaker 2: daily show. It started as a weekly show. So we

1268
01:03:14,160 --> 01:03:16,480
Speaker 2: built that first and then I started doing an interview

1269
01:03:16,480 --> 01:03:19,800
Speaker 2: podcast called No Filter, and then we went, Okay, we

1270
01:03:19,840 --> 01:03:22,960
Speaker 2: want to do a parenting podcast. So we found two

1271
01:03:23,080 --> 01:03:27,320
Speaker 2: people and we did a weekly parenting podcast.

1272
01:03:27,640 --> 01:03:29,200
Speaker 1: Do people to run the podcast?

1273
01:03:29,400 --> 01:03:30,640
Speaker 2: Yeah? To host the podcast?

1274
01:03:31,080 --> 01:03:31,320
Speaker 1: Talent?

1275
01:03:31,400 --> 01:03:35,560
Speaker 2: Yep, yeap talent. And then you have advertisers who are like, oh,

1276
01:03:35,600 --> 01:03:38,880
Speaker 2: we want to advertise to parents, so we'll advertise on

1277
01:03:38,920 --> 01:03:41,440
Speaker 2: that podcast, or will sponsor that whole show. And then

1278
01:03:41,440 --> 01:03:43,920
Speaker 2: we're like, well, what else do women want? The news

1279
01:03:43,960 --> 01:03:47,160
Speaker 2: is pretty hectic, there's a lot of assume knowledge in

1280
01:03:47,200 --> 01:03:50,840
Speaker 2: the news. How about a quick daily news podcast. So

1281
01:03:50,960 --> 01:03:53,959
Speaker 2: that's when we started The Quickie, which is now twice

1282
01:03:54,040 --> 01:03:56,560
Speaker 2: daily news podcast. Then we did The Spill, which is

1283
01:03:56,600 --> 01:03:58,400
Speaker 2: a once daily entertainment podcast.

1284
01:03:58,440 --> 01:04:00,000
Speaker 1: And you're finding talent for these shows every time.

1285
01:04:00,040 --> 01:04:04,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, that among our writers, among our editors, in house talent.

1286
01:04:05,000 --> 01:04:07,280
Speaker 2: A lot of the time. Now we also work with

1287
01:04:07,680 --> 01:04:12,160
Speaker 2: external talent, but they're our shows. We create them. We're

1288
01:04:12,200 --> 01:04:14,720
Speaker 2: about to launch a show called Diary of Birth with

1289
01:04:14,840 --> 01:04:17,280
Speaker 2: people tell their birth stories. We're launching a story about

1290
01:04:17,320 --> 01:04:21,680
Speaker 2: once upon a Once upon a Divorce, about stories about divorce.

1291
01:04:23,600 --> 01:04:25,800
Speaker 2: You know. We have podcasts about true crime, we have

1292
01:04:25,880 --> 01:04:30,480
Speaker 2: podcasts about comedy, pop culture, different aspects of pop culture,

1293
01:04:32,280 --> 01:04:34,120
Speaker 2: you know, all that we've done sport before, all our

1294
01:04:34,320 --> 01:04:38,120
Speaker 2: different aspects of women's lives and areas of interest.

1295
01:04:38,440 --> 01:04:42,720
Speaker 1: So the umbrella business sort of is really like you're

1296
01:04:42,760 --> 01:04:45,760
Speaker 1: a big publisher, one big published, a media company. You're

1297
01:04:45,800 --> 01:04:48,280
Speaker 1: a media company, correct, so you and underneath it you

1298
01:04:48,360 --> 01:04:50,360
Speaker 1: own all the various aspects. A bit it's a bit

1299
01:04:50,440 --> 01:04:52,520
Speaker 1: like the old you know, maybe it's a bit like

1300
01:04:52,560 --> 01:04:54,720
Speaker 1: news Corp. You know, you might back when it was

1301
01:04:55,040 --> 01:04:57,160
Speaker 1: you know, there's not only the early Telegraph and but

1302
01:04:57,160 --> 01:04:59,040
Speaker 1: there's a whole lot of magazines that might sit under there,

1303
01:04:59,080 --> 01:05:00,400
Speaker 1: and there might be a bit of tea, a bit

1304
01:05:00,440 --> 01:05:00,880
Speaker 1: of yeah.

1305
01:05:00,960 --> 01:05:03,000
Speaker 2: So some people say, are you a branded house or

1306
01:05:03,040 --> 01:05:05,480
Speaker 2: a house of brands? We're actually both. So we're a

1307
01:05:05,480 --> 01:05:08,240
Speaker 2: branded house in terms of Mumma Maya, but we're also

1308
01:05:08,280 --> 01:05:10,480
Speaker 2: a house of brands in terms of we've got the

1309
01:05:10,520 --> 01:05:13,160
Speaker 2: canceled podcast, we've got the Quickie podcast, we've got Mama

1310
01:05:13,200 --> 01:05:16,520
Speaker 2: Maya out Loud podcast. So we've got all these different brands.

1311
01:05:16,520 --> 01:05:19,080
Speaker 2: We've got a whole beauty podcast, we've got a fashion podcast,

1312
01:05:19,120 --> 01:05:21,560
Speaker 2: we've got a midlife podcast, we've got a mental health podcast,

1313
01:05:21,560 --> 01:05:26,800
Speaker 2: a wellness podcast. So we've got all these different you know, categories,

1314
01:05:27,040 --> 01:05:29,440
Speaker 2: and each of them have their own ecosystems. So around

1315
01:05:29,480 --> 01:05:32,960
Speaker 2: our wellness podcasts, for example, there's a newsletter, there is

1316
01:05:33,000 --> 01:05:35,320
Speaker 2: a you know, it might be a Facebook group. There

1317
01:05:35,400 --> 01:05:37,960
Speaker 2: might be written content on our website. There will be

1318
01:05:38,040 --> 01:05:40,920
Speaker 2: social accounts, so there'll be tiktoks, they'll be Instagram, so

1319
01:05:41,720 --> 01:05:44,240
Speaker 2: you know, there are these ecosystems that are built around

1320
01:05:44,280 --> 01:05:46,440
Speaker 2: these brands as well as the podcasts themselves.

1321
01:05:46,640 --> 01:05:49,320
Speaker 1: Given that you built that, how do you keep excited?

1322
01:05:49,400 --> 01:05:51,439
Speaker 1: I mean, what's exciting coming up? What are you thinking about?

1323
01:05:51,480 --> 01:05:52,160
Speaker 1: What's going on?

1324
01:05:52,520 --> 01:05:56,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, so at the moment, I'm super excited about it.

1325
01:05:56,920 --> 01:05:58,760
Speaker 2: I do.

1326
01:05:59,200 --> 01:06:02,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, I got the vibe when you walked in. Yeah.

1327
01:06:02,800 --> 01:06:05,760
Speaker 2: Do you know why? Because I'm extracting myself from management

1328
01:06:06,560 --> 01:06:10,720
Speaker 2: after seventeen years, we've finally made some big hires. We've

1329
01:06:10,760 --> 01:06:14,120
Speaker 2: hired a CEO this year for the first time. We've

1330
01:06:14,160 --> 01:06:16,360
Speaker 2: hired a chief content officer for the first time.

1331
01:06:17,760 --> 01:06:19,480
Speaker 1: Roles sort of yeah, exactly.

1332
01:06:19,560 --> 01:06:23,080
Speaker 2: Well, Jason was CEO and I was Chief content officer essentially,

1333
01:06:23,240 --> 01:06:27,720
Speaker 2: and we've hired to replace ourselves and we've sort of

1334
01:06:27,920 --> 01:06:34,080
Speaker 2: got this whole big management team now senior leadership team.

1335
01:06:34,400 --> 01:06:36,800
Speaker 2: You know, we've got a chief operating, a product officer,

1336
01:06:36,840 --> 01:06:40,320
Speaker 2: We've got CFO, We've got all these people head of content.

1337
01:06:40,840 --> 01:06:45,439
Speaker 2: And I'm climbing back down the ladder and I'm back

1338
01:06:45,480 --> 01:06:50,240
Speaker 2: to making content. So I've got an audio documentary that

1339
01:06:50,320 --> 01:06:55,600
Speaker 2: I'm making. I'm still doing my maror out loud. Yeah,

1340
01:06:55,840 --> 01:07:01,160
Speaker 2: I'm really excited because the running the business part, I'm

1341
01:07:01,280 --> 01:07:04,240
Speaker 2: very tired. Like that's been seventeen years of Mum and

1342
01:07:04,280 --> 01:07:07,040
Speaker 2: Maya and before that, I was in management for another

1343
01:07:07,080 --> 01:07:07,880
Speaker 2: fifteen years.

1344
01:07:09,000 --> 01:07:11,440
Speaker 1: And you're both a long time you're both a podcast

1345
01:07:11,760 --> 01:07:13,040
Speaker 1: and in the business of podcasting.

1346
01:07:13,160 --> 01:07:14,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, so I run three hat. I have three hats

1347
01:07:14,840 --> 01:07:17,200
Speaker 2: in the business. I'm a co founder and co owner.

1348
01:07:17,560 --> 01:07:21,360
Speaker 2: I am a manager, and I am talent. I'm a

1349
01:07:21,360 --> 01:07:23,840
Speaker 2: creative and a content creator. And that's what I want

1350
01:07:23,880 --> 01:07:25,000
Speaker 2: to be. I mean, I of course I'm a co

1351
01:07:25,120 --> 01:07:27,720
Speaker 2: founder in that stays and a co owner, but I

1352
01:07:28,320 --> 01:07:30,360
Speaker 2: want to be a creator. I want to get back

1353
01:07:30,400 --> 01:07:31,600
Speaker 2: to actually making stuff.

1354
01:07:31,800 --> 01:07:34,800
Speaker 1: How important is for someone like yourself? And we're going

1355
01:07:34,840 --> 01:07:36,440
Speaker 1: to have to draw a close moment because our audience

1356
01:07:36,520 --> 01:07:39,480
Speaker 1: is done to last more than forty four minutes, not

1357
01:07:39,600 --> 01:07:42,000
Speaker 1: long me though I've trained them that way before.

1358
01:07:42,000 --> 01:07:43,200
Speaker 2: What if, I mean, it's quite a long time.

1359
01:07:43,280 --> 01:07:46,440
Speaker 1: It is a long time. But how important is it

1360
01:07:46,480 --> 01:07:48,920
Speaker 1: to some one I've never experienced this, But how important

1361
01:07:49,000 --> 01:07:54,560
Speaker 1: is it someone like you to be independently successful as

1362
01:07:55,280 --> 01:07:58,560
Speaker 1: a woman in the family, like your parents' family and

1363
01:07:58,000 --> 01:08:01,080
Speaker 1: your own sibling and you're and your mum and dad.

1364
01:08:01,360 --> 01:08:04,920
Speaker 1: How important is it for you to be successful in

1365
01:08:05,000 --> 01:08:10,280
Speaker 1: your own right without any help from a super successful father.

1366
01:08:12,160 --> 01:08:14,760
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm really proud of that. I'm really proud of

1367
01:08:14,960 --> 01:08:18,360
Speaker 2: you know. I'm so proud. No, I'm so proud of

1368
01:08:18,400 --> 01:08:21,519
Speaker 2: my dad. And you know, let's be very clear about

1369
01:08:21,720 --> 01:08:25,960
Speaker 2: privilege and all of those things I grew up. You know,

1370
01:08:26,000 --> 01:08:29,080
Speaker 2: it's a huge privilege to even have that modeled in

1371
01:08:29,120 --> 01:08:32,280
Speaker 2: your family. And I also know that even though I

1372
01:08:32,320 --> 01:08:37,000
Speaker 2: didn't grow up you know, hugely, we didn't grow up

1373
01:08:37,040 --> 01:08:41,120
Speaker 2: wealthy or anything. My father became very successful when I

1374
01:08:41,200 --> 01:08:43,719
Speaker 2: was a teenager, and there is a degree of mental

1375
01:08:43,760 --> 01:08:48,920
Speaker 2: safety of that that can't be underscored, like the confidence

1376
01:08:48,960 --> 01:08:53,559
Speaker 2: of that. But Jason and I literally have built this

1377
01:08:53,600 --> 01:08:58,200
Speaker 2: from our lounge room together and it has been the

1378
01:08:58,280 --> 01:09:01,639
Speaker 2: hardest thing we have ever done. It has nearly brought

1379
01:09:01,720 --> 01:09:03,240
Speaker 2: us to the brink of divorce. Lucky we got the

1380
01:09:03,280 --> 01:09:05,360
Speaker 2: divorce out of the way earlier and got back together.

1381
01:09:05,439 --> 01:09:08,639
Speaker 2: But it has been so tough. It is still so tough,

1382
01:09:08,680 --> 01:09:11,640
Speaker 2: like business is still so tough. Like it is a

1383
01:09:11,720 --> 01:09:14,000
Speaker 2: great We're in a great place now and the business

1384
01:09:14,040 --> 01:09:17,760
Speaker 2: is doing really, really well. But you know, no one

1385
01:09:17,840 --> 01:09:21,439
Speaker 2: saw COVID coming, and you never know. When you're a

1386
01:09:21,439 --> 01:09:24,480
Speaker 2: business owner, it never stops being stressful.

1387
01:09:24,680 --> 01:09:26,519
Speaker 1: So I can ask a question. Jerry Harvey once said

1388
01:09:26,520 --> 01:09:28,760
Speaker 1: to me on a golf course. I said, mate, why

1389
01:09:28,760 --> 01:09:31,439
Speaker 1: are you collecting all these crappy old golf balls you're

1390
01:09:31,479 --> 01:09:33,920
Speaker 1: finding on the side that other people discarded and putting

1391
01:09:33,920 --> 01:09:38,000
Speaker 1: in a bag And though and we're playing golf up

1392
01:09:38,040 --> 01:09:40,559
Speaker 1: and New South Wales and this is some years ago,

1393
01:09:40,600 --> 01:09:42,240
Speaker 1: and he said to me, and at that stage you

1394
01:09:42,280 --> 01:09:45,080
Speaker 1: would have been a billionaire Forsial at that stage, And

1395
01:09:45,080 --> 01:09:47,599
Speaker 1: he said to me, Mark, he said, I never think,

1396
01:09:48,960 --> 01:09:52,240
Speaker 1: or I continually think that one I don't deserve it,

1397
01:09:53,040 --> 01:09:55,760
Speaker 1: and two someone could take it away from me at

1398
01:09:55,760 --> 01:09:58,120
Speaker 1: any time, because they could. And I think the same.

1399
01:09:58,520 --> 01:10:01,080
Speaker 2: I think the same too, And that drives you, of course,

1400
01:10:01,120 --> 01:10:02,960
Speaker 2: it does. No you're one hundred percent right. And sometimes

1401
01:10:03,000 --> 01:10:05,000
Speaker 2: people come into Mama meha, and we have a big

1402
01:10:05,040 --> 01:10:07,479
Speaker 2: office now down there, And if they don't, if they

1403
01:10:07,520 --> 01:10:09,719
Speaker 2: don't own a business, they'll come in and they go, wow,

1404
01:10:09,880 --> 01:10:12,920
Speaker 2: it's so big. It's amazing. And if they do own

1405
01:10:12,960 --> 01:10:14,760
Speaker 2: a business or have owned a business, they'll walk in

1406
01:10:14,760 --> 01:10:17,519
Speaker 2: and they go, wow, it's so big because they see

1407
01:10:17,520 --> 01:10:20,400
Speaker 2: what we know, which is the cost of paying the

1408
01:10:20,439 --> 01:10:23,320
Speaker 2: salary of every person and every computer and the tea

1409
01:10:23,320 --> 01:10:25,680
Speaker 2: bags in the kitchen, and the rent, the rent and

1410
01:10:25,720 --> 01:10:29,479
Speaker 2: the like. They don't. If you're a business owner, you

1411
01:10:29,600 --> 01:10:32,880
Speaker 2: see the duck paddling underneath, right, and you see the

1412
01:10:33,040 --> 01:10:38,880
Speaker 2: stress of it and the risk and the uncertainty and

1413
01:10:39,360 --> 01:10:42,360
Speaker 2: all of those things, and you know we've had to

1414
01:10:42,760 --> 01:10:45,320
Speaker 2: just metabolize that. So I think most business owners don't

1415
01:10:45,320 --> 01:10:47,200
Speaker 2: spend a lot of time patting themselves on the back

1416
01:10:47,560 --> 01:10:49,360
Speaker 2: and going, gee, look at what we've achieved. Like I

1417
01:10:49,439 --> 01:10:51,760
Speaker 2: literally never ever, ever do that. I always am like,

1418
01:10:51,800 --> 01:10:54,120
Speaker 2: what can we do better? What haven't we done well

1419
01:10:54,200 --> 01:10:56,960
Speaker 2: enough today? How can I make this better? What can

1420
01:10:57,000 --> 01:11:03,240
Speaker 2: we do next? I spend very little time going yeah, no,

1421
01:11:03,360 --> 01:11:06,639
Speaker 2: I never like never, never, never, never, never, never.

1422
01:11:06,800 --> 01:11:12,920
Speaker 1: Do you feel failure constantly in whose eyes, eyes, your eyes,

1423
01:11:12,960 --> 01:11:16,920
Speaker 1: your dad's eyes.

1424
01:11:15,240 --> 01:11:18,840
Speaker 2: Having been canceled a few times, that that always lives

1425
01:11:18,880 --> 01:11:22,639
Speaker 2: like a big, you know, weight over me, the specter

1426
01:11:22,760 --> 01:11:26,080
Speaker 2: of that, not just because of the personal damage that

1427
01:11:26,120 --> 01:11:29,400
Speaker 2: does me mentally everything, but the implications for the business,

1428
01:11:29,400 --> 01:11:34,400
Speaker 2: Like that's a lot of pressure to carry. But luckily

1429
01:11:34,439 --> 01:11:37,760
Speaker 2: the business exists kind of separate from me now and

1430
01:11:37,800 --> 01:11:41,200
Speaker 2: I've been backing out the door for seventeen years. Has

1431
01:11:41,240 --> 01:11:44,559
Speaker 2: been always our mission is to make ourselves redundant within

1432
01:11:44,600 --> 01:11:47,200
Speaker 2: the business, and I think we're closer than ever to

1433
01:11:47,320 --> 01:11:52,160
Speaker 2: doing that. But I always feel failure every I'm madly competitive,

1434
01:11:53,200 --> 01:11:54,280
Speaker 2: hugely competitive.

1435
01:11:55,240 --> 01:11:59,840
Speaker 1: File you fail, don't fail? Who wants to fail? So

1436
01:11:59,880 --> 01:12:01,320
Speaker 1: the obsession is not to fail all.

1437
01:12:01,200 --> 01:12:03,519
Speaker 2: The time, to be clear, Like, I fail and I

1438
01:12:03,560 --> 01:12:06,160
Speaker 2: fuck up, and I get things wrong, and I make

1439
01:12:06,240 --> 01:12:11,479
Speaker 2: mistakes like all the time, but I try like i'd

1440
01:12:11,479 --> 01:12:14,920
Speaker 2: prefer not to. But you own the mistakes too, Oh yeah,

1441
01:12:15,040 --> 01:12:17,000
Speaker 2: oh my god, Yes, I mean, I think our mistakes

1442
01:12:17,000 --> 01:12:19,040
Speaker 2: are the most interesting part of our stories. I don't

1443
01:12:19,080 --> 01:12:20,000
Speaker 2: think our successes are.

1444
01:12:20,120 --> 01:12:21,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, totally well for us.

1445
01:12:21,360 --> 01:12:23,320
Speaker 2: I learn a lot more about myself about my own

1446
01:12:23,680 --> 01:12:25,920
Speaker 2: diss from my failures.

1447
01:12:25,479 --> 01:12:28,080
Speaker 1: We learn about ourselves. Yeah, but others sort of are

1448
01:12:28,120 --> 01:12:31,680
Speaker 1: very interested in our successes because you know, failure is

1449
01:12:32,000 --> 01:12:34,720
Speaker 1: a great driver to be successful. It's a great drive

1450
01:12:34,800 --> 01:12:37,120
Speaker 1: to be competitive. So in order not to fail, I

1451
01:12:37,160 --> 01:12:39,880
Speaker 1: have to compete some people. Where do you think it

1452
01:12:39,960 --> 01:12:40,280
Speaker 1: comes from?

1453
01:12:40,400 --> 01:12:43,400
Speaker 2: Like, well, women aren't really women talk. Women have to

1454
01:12:43,400 --> 01:12:47,800
Speaker 2: talk a lot about our failures and our mistakes because

1455
01:12:48,000 --> 01:12:52,040
Speaker 2: we expected Yeah, because it's you know, by the world

1456
01:12:52,280 --> 01:12:58,080
Speaker 2: doesn't like a woman who is successful, and yeah, the

1457
01:12:58,080 --> 01:12:59,040
Speaker 2: world doesn't like that.

1458
01:12:59,160 --> 01:13:00,640
Speaker 1: Do you think other women like that too? Do you

1459
01:13:00,640 --> 01:13:02,680
Speaker 1: think other women also think, well, I don't like her

1460
01:13:02,720 --> 01:13:03,680
Speaker 1: because she's successful.

1461
01:13:03,960 --> 01:13:07,479
Speaker 2: When a woman calls another woman ambitious, that's very coded

1462
01:13:08,080 --> 01:13:12,240
Speaker 2: for what for usually bad mother. Someone goes, no, not

1463
01:13:12,640 --> 01:13:16,560
Speaker 2: it can be, but it's it often is she's very ambitious.

1464
01:13:16,760 --> 01:13:20,400
Speaker 2: It just is is. It's a real burn like it is.

1465
01:13:20,560 --> 01:13:23,680
Speaker 1: That's mad. Obviously live in that world, but that's mad.

1466
01:13:24,000 --> 01:13:24,840
Speaker 1: I've never thought about it.

1467
01:13:24,720 --> 01:13:25,400
Speaker 2: It shouldn't be.

1468
01:13:25,560 --> 01:13:27,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, but when you just what about when you describe

1469
01:13:27,160 --> 01:13:27,720
Speaker 1: yourself as very.

1470
01:13:27,880 --> 01:13:30,200
Speaker 2: It's interesting I say cool by self competitive. See I've

1471
01:13:30,200 --> 01:13:32,479
Speaker 2: internalized that, and I'm like, I'm not going to say

1472
01:13:32,479 --> 01:13:35,200
Speaker 2: I'm ambitious because that doesn't feel like an okay thing

1473
01:13:35,240 --> 01:13:38,960
Speaker 2: for a woman to say. I say competitive is because

1474
01:13:39,000 --> 01:13:42,200
Speaker 2: for some somehow you're allowed to be competitive, But saying

1475
01:13:42,240 --> 01:13:44,559
Speaker 2: ambitious feels like you're a bit too full of yourself.

1476
01:13:44,560 --> 01:13:47,040
Speaker 2: I don't know, so I don't. Yeah, I think of

1477
01:13:47,080 --> 01:13:48,160
Speaker 2: myself as competitive.

1478
01:13:48,240 --> 01:13:50,479
Speaker 1: Can you just take me quickly inside a woman's world,

1479
01:13:50,479 --> 01:13:54,320
Speaker 1: the women's world, because you know obviously I'm not in there.

1480
01:13:54,560 --> 01:13:57,559
Speaker 1: But take me inside for a second, Okay. The level

1481
01:13:57,600 --> 01:14:03,719
Speaker 1: of envy that exists in that world for someone who's

1482
01:14:03,720 --> 01:14:06,439
Speaker 1: more successful than them, or the level of the level

1483
01:14:06,439 --> 01:14:10,479
Speaker 1: of competition. Maybe it's not necessarily it's probably Maybe I'm

1484
01:14:10,520 --> 01:14:13,920
Speaker 1: just speculating it's less so after certain age groups, but

1485
01:14:14,040 --> 01:14:18,040
Speaker 1: more intense in a coort. Maybe I'm just making it's

1486
01:14:18,120 --> 01:14:20,040
Speaker 1: up twenty to forty five. I mean, what's it like?

1487
01:14:20,160 --> 01:14:23,439
Speaker 1: Is it really competitive? Men? Men aren't like quite like that.

1488
01:14:24,040 --> 01:14:26,240
Speaker 1: We don't really give it damn.

1489
01:14:26,600 --> 01:14:27,639
Speaker 2: I don't think that's guys.

1490
01:14:27,800 --> 01:14:30,040
Speaker 1: I don't really give damn bout something else. Most of

1491
01:14:30,080 --> 01:14:32,240
Speaker 1: it's only interested in what we're doing, how we do.

1492
01:14:32,600 --> 01:14:35,479
Speaker 2: The culture kind of has always said there's only room

1493
01:14:35,960 --> 01:14:39,000
Speaker 2: for one woman, or like, you know, a couple of

1494
01:14:39,040 --> 01:14:43,120
Speaker 2: women and there's also that thing of generationally, you have

1495
01:14:43,200 --> 01:14:46,840
Speaker 2: to overthrow the generation above you to take your place. Right.

1496
01:14:46,920 --> 01:14:49,720
Speaker 2: It's like the you know, the line will attack the

1497
01:14:49,720 --> 01:14:52,479
Speaker 2: headline of the pride of that. And you know, I've

1498
01:14:52,520 --> 01:14:55,080
Speaker 2: noticed that the people who have the hardest go at

1499
01:14:55,120 --> 01:14:57,720
Speaker 2: me are usually younger feminists who were wanting to come

1500
01:14:57,800 --> 01:14:58,719
Speaker 2: up and make their name.

1501
01:14:59,400 --> 01:15:01,320
Speaker 1: And is that because they can take you out. They

1502
01:15:01,320 --> 01:15:02,840
Speaker 1: think they can take you out to make their name.

1503
01:15:02,840 --> 01:15:04,839
Speaker 1: They ought to take you out, Yeah.

1504
01:15:04,720 --> 01:15:07,479
Speaker 2: I think, I think also to I think it's also like,

1505
01:15:07,880 --> 01:15:10,599
Speaker 2: I've got a daughter, and I know that it's really

1506
01:15:10,640 --> 01:15:14,000
Speaker 2: important for people to define themselves in opposition to what's

1507
01:15:14,040 --> 01:15:18,439
Speaker 2: gone before them. Yeah, yeah, which is interesting. I think

1508
01:15:18,560 --> 01:15:22,519
Speaker 2: father's sons and mother sorry father daughter and mother son

1509
01:15:22,600 --> 01:15:25,280
Speaker 2: relationships are a little bit different. But I think that

1510
01:15:26,320 --> 01:15:33,200
Speaker 2: generations of women, often in media, will feel and I

1511
01:15:33,240 --> 01:15:35,320
Speaker 2: know that I did it. When I came out of magazines,

1512
01:15:35,360 --> 01:15:37,280
Speaker 2: I said awful things about magazines. I think I was

1513
01:15:37,320 --> 01:15:41,519
Speaker 2: really angry about magazine. I was angry at magazines, and

1514
01:15:41,760 --> 01:15:44,280
Speaker 2: which is a funny thing to say, but I was

1515
01:15:44,360 --> 01:15:47,280
Speaker 2: really horrible about magazines for a while because I guess

1516
01:15:47,280 --> 01:15:52,120
Speaker 2: I had to establish what I was doing in opposition

1517
01:15:52,160 --> 01:15:55,000
Speaker 2: to magazines like Mom and Me or is everything magazines

1518
01:15:55,040 --> 01:15:57,200
Speaker 2: aren't in that we're not perfect, We're not about making

1519
01:15:57,200 --> 01:15:59,560
Speaker 2: women feel bad. We're not about being old fashioned and

1520
01:15:59,600 --> 01:16:02,639
Speaker 2: being st and being all photoshopped and all of those things.

1521
01:16:03,080 --> 01:16:06,040
Speaker 2: But now I'm sort of I'm very affectionate and Mum

1522
01:16:06,120 --> 01:16:08,719
Speaker 2: and MEA stands on the shoulders of women's magazines and

1523
01:16:08,840 --> 01:16:12,200
Speaker 2: those phenomenal editors, the actual women who ran them, who

1524
01:16:12,280 --> 01:16:15,320
Speaker 2: were absolute icons and who were not recognized for the

1525
01:16:15,320 --> 01:16:18,519
Speaker 2: incredible business women that they were, you know, Eita and

1526
01:16:18,680 --> 01:16:22,520
Speaker 2: Ninie and Lisa and Deborah and all of those phenomenal

1527
01:16:22,560 --> 01:16:30,320
Speaker 2: women women's media and even those bloggers now and years ago.

1528
01:16:30,520 --> 01:16:33,639
Speaker 2: We are stood on the shoulders of those giants.

1529
01:16:33,840 --> 01:16:37,800
Speaker 1: Do you feel as though me Friedman is now in

1530
01:16:37,840 --> 01:16:41,720
Speaker 1: the same role as deb and Lisa and that you

1531
01:16:41,760 --> 01:16:44,320
Speaker 1: should or you'd probably do it anyway? Do you do it?

1532
01:16:44,360 --> 01:16:47,680
Speaker 1: I should ask you encourage young women to come in

1533
01:16:48,000 --> 01:16:50,400
Speaker 1: if they write your letter, you know, do encourage young

1534
01:16:50,439 --> 01:16:51,799
Speaker 1: women to come and do what you did with.

1535
01:16:51,960 --> 01:16:55,360
Speaker 2: We employ Lisa, more than one hundred of them, probably

1536
01:16:55,760 --> 01:16:57,840
Speaker 2: have one hundred and fifty staff. Probably one hundred and

1537
01:16:57,880 --> 01:17:00,439
Speaker 2: forty of them are young women. So yeah, yeah, that's

1538
01:17:00,479 --> 01:17:05,639
Speaker 2: what stoked. I love it. I mean it's I learned

1539
01:17:05,720 --> 01:17:10,200
Speaker 2: so much from them. They're delightful. Like, you know, I'm

1540
01:17:10,280 --> 01:17:14,400
Speaker 2: a big fan of cross generational friendships, Like I've got

1541
01:17:14,400 --> 01:17:18,160
Speaker 2: great friends who are in their twenties, thirties, sixties, seventies,

1542
01:17:18,479 --> 01:17:22,240
Speaker 2: you know, not just in my decade, in my fifties,

1543
01:17:22,400 --> 01:17:25,280
Speaker 2: and so yeah, I love it. I think young women

1544
01:17:25,360 --> 01:17:29,760
Speaker 2: are phenomenal. I think they're so exciting and interesting and

1545
01:17:29,920 --> 01:17:33,880
Speaker 2: different to us and energetic and energetic. But they've got

1546
01:17:34,000 --> 01:17:36,720
Speaker 2: very good boundaries. Mark, they've got very good boundaries.

1547
01:17:37,040 --> 01:17:38,639
Speaker 1: Yeah, the younger generally speaking.

1548
01:17:38,680 --> 01:17:41,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's like I've got my work and then I'm

1549
01:17:41,120 --> 01:17:44,400
Speaker 2: switching off my work and you know, I have my

1550
01:17:44,520 --> 01:17:46,880
Speaker 2: right to disconnect and all of those things. And I

1551
01:17:46,880 --> 01:17:50,000
Speaker 2: think that's actually really healthy. After you get over the

1552
01:17:50,000 --> 01:17:51,519
Speaker 2: part where you go all back in my day, I

1553
01:17:51,520 --> 01:17:53,120
Speaker 2: didn't and that lane you go, oh my god, I

1554
01:17:53,160 --> 01:17:58,120
Speaker 2: sound like positively geriatric, and then you go, you know what,

1555
01:17:58,200 --> 01:17:59,280
Speaker 2: that's actually kind of cool.

1556
01:18:00,000 --> 01:18:02,920
Speaker 1: That's actually great. Well it also makes sense. And before

1557
01:18:02,920 --> 01:18:05,639
Speaker 1: I go, I mean, can you throw that over here? Sure?

1558
01:18:07,680 --> 01:18:09,320
Speaker 1: I really want it to be really good? Is this

1559
01:18:09,320 --> 01:18:09,920
Speaker 1: for ADHD?

1560
01:18:10,160 --> 01:18:10,320
Speaker 2: Yeah?

1561
01:18:10,400 --> 01:18:12,639
Speaker 1: Yeah, and do you take it everywhere?

1562
01:18:12,680 --> 01:18:14,160
Speaker 2: Everywhere I drive with it. I hold it in my

1563
01:18:14,200 --> 01:18:15,120
Speaker 2: hand while I'm driving.

1564
01:18:15,640 --> 01:18:18,479
Speaker 1: And it's interesting. Like I was, I was wondering to myself,

1565
01:18:19,680 --> 01:18:23,160
Speaker 1: is this a little technique that helps you concentrate on

1566
01:18:23,240 --> 01:18:29,360
Speaker 1: the conversation or is it she's I know you're very clever,

1567
01:18:29,800 --> 01:18:32,200
Speaker 1: and is this is this a process to sort of

1568
01:18:32,240 --> 01:18:33,080
Speaker 1: send me distract me?

1569
01:18:33,320 --> 01:18:35,680
Speaker 2: Because oh, I didn't think about that. No. Do you

1570
01:18:35,680 --> 01:18:38,120
Speaker 2: know why this one's really good is because usually I'm

1571
01:18:38,200 --> 01:18:40,800
Speaker 2: used to doing a podcast interview, either it'll be on

1572
01:18:40,880 --> 01:18:43,400
Speaker 2: zoom or it'll be with a desk, right, So usually

1573
01:18:43,439 --> 01:18:45,679
Speaker 2: I do it under the desk sols, not to distract anyone,

1574
01:18:45,920 --> 01:18:47,719
Speaker 2: and also because you know, I don't know, some people

1575
01:18:47,800 --> 01:18:50,600
Speaker 2: might find this embarrassing and silly. I always you have

1576
01:18:50,680 --> 01:18:53,920
Speaker 2: little toys in meetings. But this is my special podcasting

1577
01:18:53,920 --> 01:18:56,639
Speaker 2: one because I've got a whole you know, a whole

1578
01:18:56,720 --> 01:18:59,200
Speaker 2: basket of fidgets on my on my desk and everywhere

1579
01:18:59,200 --> 01:19:02,920
Speaker 2: that I record. But I can't have noisy ones in podcasts. No,

1580
01:19:03,040 --> 01:19:07,280
Speaker 2: I'm the absolute arch enemy of producers and sound engineers.

1581
01:19:07,400 --> 01:19:09,759
Speaker 2: So this one someone gave to me because it's silent

1582
01:19:09,800 --> 01:19:10,439
Speaker 2: and I love it.

1583
01:19:10,640 --> 01:19:13,960
Speaker 1: I love it too. Yeah, yeah, I love it. And

1584
01:19:14,000 --> 01:19:16,280
Speaker 1: I'll just put on the camera what I love about

1585
01:19:16,280 --> 01:19:18,639
Speaker 1: this because it wouldn't have picked you up because you're

1586
01:19:18,880 --> 01:19:20,920
Speaker 1: shot from the waist up, So why I wanted to

1587
01:19:21,960 --> 01:19:22,920
Speaker 1: Was it distracting for you?

1588
01:19:23,040 --> 01:19:23,240
Speaker 2: No?

1589
01:19:23,240 --> 01:19:27,720
Speaker 1: No, no, I I love these things. There's something I

1590
01:19:27,800 --> 01:19:32,360
Speaker 1: don't know in a physic sense and a chemistry sense,

1591
01:19:32,400 --> 01:19:35,719
Speaker 1: so quite fascinating about how this thing doesn't fall apart

1592
01:19:35,760 --> 01:19:40,360
Speaker 1: and doesn't squeeze out, and it's a fascination to me.

1593
01:19:40,439 --> 01:19:43,000
Speaker 2: It is, yes, it is, and it's very It's I

1594
01:19:43,040 --> 01:19:45,920
Speaker 2: can't explain why. It helps me concentrate, and I've got

1595
01:19:46,000 --> 01:19:49,200
Speaker 2: various different ones. But otherwise I tend to pick my fingers,

1596
01:19:50,080 --> 01:19:52,360
Speaker 2: so this is that. Yeah, I'll pick the skin off

1597
01:19:52,360 --> 01:19:55,760
Speaker 2: my fingers because I won't even be where I'm doing it.

1598
01:19:55,800 --> 01:19:59,479
Speaker 2: I just need something physical while we're talking. It just

1599
01:19:59,479 --> 01:20:00,000
Speaker 2: helps me com.

1600
01:20:00,720 --> 01:20:03,360
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's My mother was like that, and of course

1601
01:20:03,479 --> 01:20:07,200
Speaker 1: ADHD wasn't a diagnosed thing in those days, but she

1602
01:20:07,240 --> 01:20:08,600
Speaker 1: used to pick her fingers all the time and I

1603
01:20:08,680 --> 01:20:10,720
Speaker 1: used to say, Mum, what are you doing? And her

1604
01:20:10,760 --> 01:20:13,240
Speaker 1: fingers would be bleeding. She would even know same. I'm

1605
01:20:13,240 --> 01:20:17,160
Speaker 1: sure she had an ADHD, which is quite interesting, like

1606
01:20:17,200 --> 01:20:19,040
Speaker 1: in hindsight, because some of my kids have got it,

1607
01:20:19,080 --> 01:20:20,360
Speaker 1: some of my it's.

1608
01:20:20,200 --> 01:20:21,800
Speaker 2: As genetically inheritable as.

1609
01:20:21,760 --> 01:20:25,680
Speaker 1: High totally inheritable, and I probably have it or had it,

1610
01:20:25,760 --> 01:20:28,320
Speaker 1: but I don't know. But but I also, you know,

1611
01:20:28,400 --> 01:20:29,280
Speaker 1: I have other techniques.

1612
01:20:29,920 --> 01:20:33,840
Speaker 2: It's a very high incidence of ADHD and entrepreneurs, much

1613
01:20:33,880 --> 01:20:36,439
Speaker 2: higher than the general population because entrepreneurs have a high

1614
01:20:36,479 --> 01:20:40,040
Speaker 2: appetite for risk. Yeah, and people with ADHD aren't able

1615
01:20:40,080 --> 01:20:44,120
Speaker 2: to metabolize consequences very well and risky and they like

1616
01:20:44,240 --> 01:20:47,160
Speaker 2: they've got a high appetite for risk. That's why a

1617
01:20:47,160 --> 01:20:50,160
Speaker 2: lot of young men particularly at risk of being injured

1618
01:20:50,240 --> 01:20:50,800
Speaker 2: or killed in.

1619
01:20:50,760 --> 01:20:52,200
Speaker 1: Accidents and also in fidelity.

1620
01:20:52,640 --> 01:20:55,040
Speaker 2: Yeah. Interesting because yeah, you can't think about the consequence.

1621
01:20:55,080 --> 01:20:58,160
Speaker 2: It's like this in this moment. Impulse control is really tricky.

1622
01:20:58,160 --> 01:21:00,360
Speaker 1: I'm not trying an excuse for it, but like it

1623
01:21:00,520 --> 01:21:02,320
Speaker 1: depends on the relationship anyway. But I'm not trying to

1624
01:21:02,320 --> 01:21:03,640
Speaker 1: make an excuse for it, because there's all sorts of

1625
01:21:03,640 --> 01:21:06,519
Speaker 1: different types of relationships which tolerate, don't tolerate, tolerate some

1626
01:21:06,560 --> 01:21:08,960
Speaker 1: of it, et cetera. But I do know and I

1627
01:21:09,000 --> 01:21:12,120
Speaker 1: have read about this, but I've written in scientific magazines.

1628
01:21:12,120 --> 01:21:15,759
Speaker 1: But it is now correlated at least whether it's causation,

1629
01:21:15,840 --> 01:21:18,799
Speaker 1: it is correlated to infidelity in a lot of cases.

1630
01:21:18,880 --> 01:21:22,120
Speaker 1: I mean, I would say people like Trump, it probably

1631
01:21:22,120 --> 01:21:23,559
Speaker 1: has something going on there.

1632
01:21:25,960 --> 01:21:26,680
Speaker 2: A raft of.

1633
01:21:28,200 --> 01:21:28,639
Speaker 1: Everything else.

1634
01:21:28,880 --> 01:21:30,360
Speaker 2: The season would be probably at the top of the

1635
01:21:30,400 --> 01:21:31,040
Speaker 2: leader and.

1636
01:21:31,760 --> 01:21:40,400
Speaker 1: Perhaps perhaps I wouldn't say psychopathic or in a pathological way,

1637
01:21:40,479 --> 01:21:44,160
Speaker 1: but perhaps a little bit of psych psychopathic psychopathy.

1638
01:21:44,240 --> 01:21:47,040
Speaker 2: There's a lot going on there. Yeah, definitely, which is

1639
01:21:47,160 --> 01:21:49,080
Speaker 2: just great news for the next for all of us.

1640
01:21:49,920 --> 01:21:51,559
Speaker 1: I'm not saying Kmala doesn't have it, because she may

1641
01:21:51,640 --> 01:21:53,800
Speaker 1: have to. I don't know her well enough. I do

1642
01:21:53,960 --> 01:21:56,320
Speaker 1: know him, and I have met him and talked to

1643
01:21:56,360 --> 01:21:57,920
Speaker 1: him and interviewed him stuff like because he did during

1644
01:21:57,960 --> 01:22:02,040
Speaker 1: the Apprentice. But just my interaction with him, I could

1645
01:22:02,080 --> 01:22:04,000
Speaker 1: say that there is a bit of psychopathy there because

1646
01:22:04,000 --> 01:22:06,720
Speaker 1: that's something I've studied. And there is a book out there.

1647
01:22:07,120 --> 01:22:09,400
Speaker 2: It's it's David Gillespie's book.

1648
01:22:09,760 --> 01:22:12,360
Speaker 1: Yes, and it gives you the twenty one or seven

1649
01:22:12,400 --> 01:22:13,360
Speaker 1: and I can't remember it is now.

1650
01:22:13,840 --> 01:22:16,760
Speaker 2: That's his phenomenal. Yeah, that wasn't really I insured him too.

1651
01:22:16,760 --> 01:22:19,440
Speaker 2: It's really interesting. I walk among us paths.

1652
01:22:19,520 --> 01:22:21,880
Speaker 1: Well, someone asked told me they thought I was, and

1653
01:22:21,920 --> 01:22:24,280
Speaker 1: by that it was a female. So she's suggested by

1654
01:22:24,320 --> 01:22:25,479
Speaker 1: the book. So I thought a better again by the

1655
01:22:25,479 --> 01:22:27,960
Speaker 1: book as we're as we're parting company.

1656
01:22:28,160 --> 01:22:32,000
Speaker 2: Oh I see that's a great like farewell gift.

1657
01:22:32,080 --> 01:22:34,360
Speaker 1: Yeah, so I thought I better read it me for

1658
01:22:34,400 --> 01:22:36,559
Speaker 1: even Thanks. This has been wonderful. Thanks for honestly I

1659
01:22:36,640 --> 01:22:38,320
Speaker 1: had got. I got so much out of it.

1660
01:22:39,840 --> 01:22:43,000
Speaker 2: Energies are I just enjoyed the conversation so much.

1661
01:22:43,120 --> 01:22:55,760
Speaker 1: Thanks,