1 00:00:03,900 --> 00:00:06,390 Sean Aylmer: Welcome to the Fear and Greed daily interview. I'm Sean 2 00:00:06,480 --> 00:00:09,660 Sean Aylmer: Aylmer. Something a bit different today. We talk a lot 3 00:00:09,660 --> 00:00:12,480 Sean Aylmer: about Qantas on Fear and Greed, but lately there hasn't 4 00:00:12,480 --> 00:00:15,089 Sean Aylmer: been a lot of good news. The airline has been 5 00:00:15,089 --> 00:00:18,810 Sean Aylmer: grappling with a major PR crisis, delayed and canceled flights, 6 00:00:19,230 --> 00:00:21,930 Sean Aylmer: lost baggage, an hour spent on the phone waiting for 7 00:00:21,930 --> 00:00:25,078 Sean Aylmer: customer service. All this after the worst couple of years 8 00:00:25,079 --> 00:00:28,139 Sean Aylmer: in the airline's history, thanks to the pandemic. So can 9 00:00:28,139 --> 00:00:32,549 Sean Aylmer: Qantas recover? Travel writer Ben Groundwater is a columnist for 10 00:00:32,549 --> 00:00:35,009 Sean Aylmer: Traveler in the Sydney Morning Herald and The Age, as 11 00:00:35,010 --> 00:00:38,040 Sean Aylmer: well as an author and podcaster. Ben, welcome back to 12 00:00:38,040 --> 00:00:38,670 Sean Aylmer: Fear and Greed. 13 00:00:38,850 --> 00:00:39,750 Ben Groundwater: Hi, Sean. How you doing? 14 00:00:40,409 --> 00:00:42,388 Sean Aylmer: Well, thank you. Now recently you wrote a piece for 15 00:00:42,390 --> 00:00:44,610 Sean Aylmer: Traveler in the Herald and The Age about the brand 16 00:00:44,610 --> 00:00:49,168 Sean Aylmer: damage to Qantas. Take me through what the challenges the 17 00:00:49,170 --> 00:00:49,980 Sean Aylmer: airline is facing. 18 00:00:50,759 --> 00:00:53,010 Ben Groundwater: I mean, part of the challenges that the airline is facing 19 00:00:53,010 --> 00:00:57,060 Ben Groundwater: is the airline itself, in some respects. Obviously, we've had a COVID- 20 00:00:57,060 --> 00:01:01,290 Ben Groundwater: 19 pandemic, which has hugely affected a lot of different 21 00:01:01,290 --> 00:01:03,929 Ben Groundwater: industries, but travel in particular. So a lot of airlines 22 00:01:03,929 --> 00:01:05,729 Ben Groundwater: have been struggling, a lot of travel providers have been 23 00:01:05,730 --> 00:01:08,458 Ben Groundwater: struggling through the pandemic, and Qantas is no different there. 24 00:01:08,789 --> 00:01:11,400 Ben Groundwater: They've had a lot of dramas. Obviously, they had to 25 00:01:11,459 --> 00:01:13,230 Ben Groundwater: lay off a lot of staff. They had to put 26 00:01:13,230 --> 00:01:15,540 Ben Groundwater: a lot of staff on enforced leave. They had to 27 00:01:15,540 --> 00:01:18,750 Ben Groundwater: change a lot of their systems. And now as travel 28 00:01:18,750 --> 00:01:21,480 Ben Groundwater: is bouncing back, it's actually bouncing back really quickly and 29 00:01:21,480 --> 00:01:23,849 Ben Groundwater: so the trouble that they've been facing is how to 30 00:01:23,849 --> 00:01:26,250 Ben Groundwater: get all those systems back in place and get all 31 00:01:26,250 --> 00:01:28,919 Ben Groundwater: those staff back and get everything moving in the way 32 00:01:28,920 --> 00:01:31,170 Ben Groundwater: that they would want it to in this sort of 33 00:01:31,170 --> 00:01:34,140 Ben Groundwater: timeframe that people are expecting and they just haven't been 34 00:01:34,140 --> 00:01:35,910 Ben Groundwater: able to do that. So there's been all sorts of 35 00:01:35,910 --> 00:01:39,719 Ben Groundwater: dramas, including, as you were saying, lost baggage, which is 36 00:01:39,719 --> 00:01:43,020 Ben Groundwater: partly because they outsourced a lot of their baggage handling 37 00:01:43,020 --> 00:01:46,319 Ben Groundwater: operations before the pandemic began. But then you see things 38 00:01:46,319 --> 00:01:48,479 Ben Groundwater: like those long call waiting times because they don't have 39 00:01:48,480 --> 00:01:53,280 Ben Groundwater: the staff, delays, cancellations and COVID-19 continues to affect the 40 00:01:53,280 --> 00:01:56,849 Ben Groundwater: company and all airlines as well because people are getting 41 00:01:56,849 --> 00:01:58,650 Ben Groundwater: sick. They're calling in sick, they can't come to work 42 00:01:58,650 --> 00:02:00,570 Ben Groundwater: for a week if they get COVID. And so if 43 00:02:00,570 --> 00:02:02,430 Ben Groundwater: you don't have the crew, you can't run the flight. 44 00:02:02,880 --> 00:02:05,580 Ben Groundwater: All of these things are sort of compounding to be pretty much 45 00:02:05,580 --> 00:02:08,880 Ben Groundwater: a public relations disaster, especially as one of the things 46 00:02:08,880 --> 00:02:11,760 Ben Groundwater: that stick in people's mind is the Qantas CEO, Alan 47 00:02:11,760 --> 00:02:14,940 Ben Groundwater: Joyce, coming out and saying that one of the reasons 48 00:02:14,940 --> 00:02:17,729 Ben Groundwater: that all this is happening is because passengers aren't match- 49 00:02:17,730 --> 00:02:21,179 Ben Groundwater: fit and that's a quote that I think will go 50 00:02:21,179 --> 00:02:23,910 Ben Groundwater: down in the annals of PR disasters. 51 00:02:24,060 --> 00:02:26,639 Sean Aylmer: It will haunt him. But he does have a slight 52 00:02:26,639 --> 00:02:29,340 Sean Aylmer: point there. I mean, Qantas isn't match- fit. I mean, 53 00:02:29,340 --> 00:02:31,230 Sean Aylmer: that's the other side of it. As you were saying, 54 00:02:31,740 --> 00:02:36,210 Sean Aylmer: their baggage handlers they've outsourced, COVID, et cetera. They're not match- 55 00:02:36,210 --> 00:02:38,070 Sean Aylmer: fit, but he may have a bit of a point 56 00:02:38,219 --> 00:02:40,020 Sean Aylmer: that passengers aren't used to it, either. 57 00:02:40,230 --> 00:02:42,960 Ben Groundwater: I think he absolutely had a point. I think the 58 00:02:42,960 --> 00:02:46,050 Ben Groundwater: problem was just saying it, really. I mean, you go 59 00:02:46,050 --> 00:02:48,330 Ben Groundwater: to an airport and you can see for yourself that 60 00:02:48,330 --> 00:02:50,940 Ben Groundwater: people are not match- fit. They don't know what they're 61 00:02:50,940 --> 00:02:53,160 Ben Groundwater: doing anymore. There's a lot of people who are traveling 62 00:02:53,160 --> 00:02:54,989 Ben Groundwater: for the first time in two years, maybe the first 63 00:02:54,990 --> 00:02:58,349 Ben Groundwater: time in longer. I absolutely accept that that's the reality. 64 00:02:58,350 --> 00:03:00,900 Ben Groundwater: I think it was more the optics of telling, after 65 00:03:00,900 --> 00:03:03,720 Ben Groundwater: all these frustrations and hassles that people had coming out 66 00:03:03,720 --> 00:03:06,720 Ben Groundwater: and saying, " Actually, guys, it's your fault." That didn't seem 67 00:03:06,720 --> 00:03:07,650 Ben Groundwater: to go down so well. 68 00:03:08,099 --> 00:03:10,530 Sean Aylmer: So it's not unique to Qantas in this, either. I mean, 69 00:03:10,950 --> 00:03:13,889 Sean Aylmer: Virgin and other international airlines must be facing the same 70 00:03:13,889 --> 00:03:14,639 Sean Aylmer: sort of things. 71 00:03:14,880 --> 00:03:17,458 Ben Groundwater: They are, yeah, but not to the extent that Qantas 72 00:03:17,459 --> 00:03:21,090 Ben Groundwater: are. Qantas's on- time performance in the last couple of months 73 00:03:21,090 --> 00:03:23,130 Ben Groundwater: has been the worst of any Australian airline, worse than 74 00:03:23,130 --> 00:03:26,970 Ben Groundwater: Jetstar, worse than Virgin, worse than Rex. So, yeah, there 75 00:03:26,970 --> 00:03:29,309 Ben Groundwater: are clearly some extra issues on top of what everybody 76 00:03:29,309 --> 00:03:32,820 Ben Groundwater: else is facing. And baggage handling, in particular, has been 77 00:03:32,820 --> 00:03:36,480 Ben Groundwater: a problem that has been almost, almost unique to Qantas 78 00:03:36,480 --> 00:03:38,970 Ben Groundwater: in some ways. Like there's always been baggage handling issues, 79 00:03:38,970 --> 00:03:41,520 Ben Groundwater: but there's a phenomenal amount of luggage that's going missing 80 00:03:41,520 --> 00:03:44,010 Ben Groundwater: and turning up late at the moment. And that is 81 00:03:44,010 --> 00:03:46,080 Ben Groundwater: a direct consequence, not just of the pandemic, but as 82 00:03:46,080 --> 00:03:48,270 Ben Groundwater: we were saying, that decision to outsource a lot of 83 00:03:48,270 --> 00:03:49,830 Ben Groundwater: their baggage handling before the pandemic. 84 00:03:50,280 --> 00:03:52,230 Sean Aylmer: Stay with me, Ben. We'll be back in a minute. 85 00:03:52,230 --> 00:04:02,040 Sean Aylmer: My guest this morning is travel writer Ben Groundwater. So how 86 00:04:02,040 --> 00:04:05,280 Sean Aylmer: much of a disaster is it for Qantas? Or is it just 87 00:04:05,280 --> 00:04:06,959 Sean Aylmer: the fact that it's a national carrier, in a couple 88 00:04:06,960 --> 00:04:09,000 Sean Aylmer: of years, we'll forget all this and we'll all be happy again? 89 00:04:09,389 --> 00:04:11,490 Ben Groundwater: Yeah, this is a really interesting thing, and this is 90 00:04:11,490 --> 00:04:16,020 Ben Groundwater: what my column was about, essentially. There are always times, 91 00:04:16,020 --> 00:04:18,060 Ben Groundwater: or not always, but there seems to be in recent 92 00:04:18,060 --> 00:04:22,080 Ben Groundwater: history people get upset at Qantas. People feel very strongly 93 00:04:22,080 --> 00:04:25,320 Ben Groundwater: about Qantas. It's a brand that's so strongly tied to 94 00:04:25,529 --> 00:04:29,009 Ben Groundwater: the Australian identity, really. I mean, the story of Qantas 95 00:04:29,010 --> 00:04:32,160 Ben Groundwater: and the Qantas ads are still Call Australia Home. We think 96 00:04:32,160 --> 00:04:34,830 Ben Groundwater: of this airline as being part of our country, even 97 00:04:34,830 --> 00:04:38,250 Ben Groundwater: though it's not really technically a national airline. It's this privately- 98 00:04:38,250 --> 00:04:41,549 Ben Groundwater: owned company, but people feel very strongly about it. I 99 00:04:41,550 --> 00:04:44,488 Ben Groundwater: mean, you cast your mind back to 2011, there was 100 00:04:44,490 --> 00:04:47,250 Ben Groundwater: a huge public relations disaster for Qantas as well. There 101 00:04:47,250 --> 00:04:49,710 Ben Groundwater: was a whole lot of industrial action and Qantas shut 102 00:04:49,710 --> 00:04:53,130 Ben Groundwater: down its entire network of international and domestic flights and 103 00:04:53,130 --> 00:04:56,820 Ben Groundwater: inconvenienced tens of thousands of travelers in Australia and around 104 00:04:56,820 --> 00:04:59,910 Ben Groundwater: the world. That was a huge thing. But people got 105 00:04:59,910 --> 00:05:02,308 Ben Groundwater: over it, and I expect that they'll get over this 106 00:05:02,309 --> 00:05:05,549 Ben Groundwater: one as well, I think, because of those strong feelings 107 00:05:05,549 --> 00:05:08,250 Ben Groundwater: that people have towards Qantas and because there just aren't that 108 00:05:08,250 --> 00:05:10,470 Ben Groundwater: many other options out there if you want to travel. 109 00:05:10,920 --> 00:05:14,609 Ben Groundwater: The sort of product that Qantas offers, particularly domestically, isn't 110 00:05:14,610 --> 00:05:17,789 Ben Groundwater: really offered by anybody else. And so people, once this 111 00:05:17,790 --> 00:05:19,618 Ben Groundwater: all dies down, there's a lot of anger, particularly at 112 00:05:19,620 --> 00:05:22,049 Ben Groundwater: Alan Joyce, but I think it will go away eventually 113 00:05:22,049 --> 00:05:25,020 Ben Groundwater: and we will go back to loving the airline as 114 00:05:25,020 --> 00:05:28,169 Ben Groundwater: much as we always did. Even saying that at the 115 00:05:28,170 --> 00:05:30,900 Ben Groundwater: moment annoys people and I said that in my column. 116 00:05:30,900 --> 00:05:33,270 Ben Groundwater: I said I feel like we're going to get past 117 00:05:33,270 --> 00:05:36,000 Ben Groundwater: this because we have in the past and this company 118 00:05:36,240 --> 00:05:38,279 Ben Groundwater: has a special place that a lot of companies don't 119 00:05:38,279 --> 00:05:40,709 Ben Groundwater: have. And people were angry and upset about that, even 120 00:05:40,709 --> 00:05:42,390 Ben Groundwater: that idea, but I think it's going to be true. 121 00:05:42,990 --> 00:05:45,359 Sean Aylmer: But the thing about Qantas, I'm frustrated with Qantas at 122 00:05:45,360 --> 00:05:47,490 Sean Aylmer: the moment. I'm traveling to the US later in the 123 00:05:47,490 --> 00:05:51,000 Sean Aylmer: year. They're not even in the game price- wise. They're 124 00:05:51,000 --> 00:05:54,780 Sean Aylmer: just not competitive at all. And as an Australian, and 125 00:05:54,870 --> 00:05:57,899 Sean Aylmer: I would always fly Qantas internationally if I could, and 126 00:05:57,900 --> 00:06:01,140 Sean Aylmer: it's nothing rational about that, Ben, just that sort of 127 00:06:01,140 --> 00:06:04,260 Sean Aylmer: patriotic thing. So I always go to see what they 128 00:06:04,260 --> 00:06:07,109 Sean Aylmer: cost, and they're often not the cheapest, but they're at 129 00:06:07,110 --> 00:06:08,880 Sean Aylmer: least in the game. They're not even in the game 130 00:06:08,880 --> 00:06:11,700 Sean Aylmer: at the moment. That is frustrating to many Australians, I think. 131 00:06:11,759 --> 00:06:13,860 Ben Groundwater: I'm sure it is, and that's a big driver for 132 00:06:13,860 --> 00:06:16,260 Ben Groundwater: when people are making bookings. But it's not just the 133 00:06:16,260 --> 00:06:18,479 Ben Groundwater: price that's the issue. I think it's the actual product 134 00:06:18,480 --> 00:06:21,630 Ben Groundwater: that's being offered. Qantas is a long way behind the leaders 135 00:06:21,630 --> 00:06:24,480 Ben Groundwater: at the moment, the likes of the Middle Eastern carriers, 136 00:06:24,480 --> 00:06:29,580 Ben Groundwater: the Southeast Asian carriers, Singapore Airlines, Etihad, Qatar, Emirates, the 137 00:06:29,580 --> 00:06:32,039 Ben Groundwater: Qantas product is nowhere near as good as them. Certainly 138 00:06:32,040 --> 00:06:34,589 Ben Groundwater: if you're flying to the US, US carriers tend not 139 00:06:34,589 --> 00:06:36,659 Ben Groundwater: to be that amazing as well. And so Qantas is 140 00:06:36,660 --> 00:06:39,359 Ben Groundwater: genuinely probably what you would call it in the game 141 00:06:39,360 --> 00:06:43,650 Ben Groundwater: there, but its business class cabin is nowhere near as 142 00:06:43,650 --> 00:06:46,110 Ben Groundwater: good as some of those other airlines I've mentioned. 143 00:06:46,320 --> 00:06:49,439 Sean Aylmer: Isn't it, Ben? You might have to tell us about that. 144 00:06:51,540 --> 00:06:54,839 Sean Aylmer: Mind you, there is a fundamental challenge for Qantas versus 145 00:06:54,839 --> 00:06:56,700 Sean Aylmer: a lot of those Middle Eastern Airlines is that, as you 146 00:06:56,700 --> 00:06:59,550 Sean Aylmer: say, it's a privately- held company. It has to turn 147 00:06:59,550 --> 00:07:02,729 Sean Aylmer: up to shareholders, make a profit, all that. When you're 148 00:07:02,730 --> 00:07:07,139 Sean Aylmer: against some of those absolutely incredible Emirates, Qatar, some of 149 00:07:07,139 --> 00:07:09,779 Sean Aylmer: those sort of airlines, it is very hard to compete 150 00:07:09,780 --> 00:07:10,380 Sean Aylmer: with them, really. 151 00:07:10,559 --> 00:07:12,870 Ben Groundwater: Yeah, it's not a level playing field, absolutely, and that's 152 00:07:12,870 --> 00:07:14,340 Ben Groundwater: a real challenge that Qantas is going to have to 153 00:07:14,340 --> 00:07:16,680 Ben Groundwater: face. Singapore Airlines as well is funded by the Singapore 154 00:07:16,680 --> 00:07:21,300 Ben Groundwater: government. There's a real difficulty there. So obviously, if they 155 00:07:21,300 --> 00:07:23,609 Ben Groundwater: can't have the actual service and the facilities that those 156 00:07:23,610 --> 00:07:25,740 Ben Groundwater: airlines have, then they will at least want to compete 157 00:07:25,740 --> 00:07:27,809 Ben Groundwater: on price and, as you were saying, they're finding that 158 00:07:27,809 --> 00:07:29,879 Ben Groundwater: difficult at the moment. I'm not sure what the drivers 159 00:07:29,879 --> 00:07:33,210 Ben Groundwater: are for that exactly. Flights are getting more expensive across 160 00:07:33,210 --> 00:07:36,120 Ben Groundwater: the board around the world, but Qantas, as you're saying, 161 00:07:36,120 --> 00:07:38,490 Ben Groundwater: doesn't seem to be able to compete at the moment 162 00:07:38,490 --> 00:07:40,230 Ben Groundwater: with a lot of other international airlines. 163 00:07:40,679 --> 00:07:44,670 Sean Aylmer: So what's the prognosis for Qantas and Virgin and those 164 00:07:44,670 --> 00:07:46,319 Sean Aylmer: sorts of airlines going forward? I know there was a 165 00:07:46,320 --> 00:07:50,310 Sean Aylmer: report recently that Singapore Airlines is actually the largest carrier 166 00:07:50,310 --> 00:07:53,370 Sean Aylmer: into and out of Australia, just a touch ahead of 167 00:07:53,370 --> 00:07:56,910 Sean Aylmer: Qantas. If you add Jetstar, obviously, the Qantas group is 168 00:07:56,910 --> 00:08:00,179 Sean Aylmer: bigger, but it surprised me that Singapore Airlines was bigger 169 00:08:00,179 --> 00:08:02,969 Sean Aylmer: than Qantas into and out of Australia. I don't know. 170 00:08:02,969 --> 00:08:05,939 Sean Aylmer: What is the prognosis for Qantas? Does it just kind 171 00:08:05,940 --> 00:08:07,860 Sean Aylmer: of get back to where it was five years ago? 172 00:08:07,890 --> 00:08:10,680 Sean Aylmer: Do you think the world's becoming a smaller place and 173 00:08:10,680 --> 00:08:12,420 Sean Aylmer: the skies will be freer? 174 00:08:12,600 --> 00:08:14,490 Ben Groundwater: I think there's going to be a lot of shifting 175 00:08:14,490 --> 00:08:17,250 Ben Groundwater: boundaries in the next couple of years because the thing 176 00:08:17,250 --> 00:08:20,249 Ben Groundwater: is that the travel, although travel is back, it's not 177 00:08:20,250 --> 00:08:23,010 Ben Groundwater: back in the full sense of what it was before 178 00:08:23,010 --> 00:08:26,760 Ben Groundwater: in terms of incoming and outgoing passengers into Australia. It's 179 00:08:26,760 --> 00:08:29,310 Ben Groundwater: around about half of what it was before the COVID-19 180 00:08:29,310 --> 00:08:33,000 Ben Groundwater: pandemic and there's a whole lot of realignment that's happening. 181 00:08:33,000 --> 00:08:36,210 Ben Groundwater: So obviously, people are struggling with staff. All those casual 182 00:08:36,210 --> 00:08:39,630 Ben Groundwater: positions are really hard to fill at the moment. Those 183 00:08:39,630 --> 00:08:42,450 Ben Groundwater: will come back. We will see, as I say, a 184 00:08:42,450 --> 00:08:45,510 Ben Groundwater: realignment of things. I'm not sure where exactly the cards 185 00:08:45,510 --> 00:08:49,110 Ben Groundwater: will fall when that happens, but I see Qantas bouncing 186 00:08:49,110 --> 00:08:53,309 Ben Groundwater: back, particularly in a domestic sense. And internationally, as we're 187 00:08:53,309 --> 00:08:55,108 Ben Groundwater: saying, it's really hard to compete, so I'm not sure sure 188 00:08:55,110 --> 00:08:56,820 Ben Groundwater: how they're going to go there. But they offer a 189 00:08:56,820 --> 00:09:00,690 Ben Groundwater: product domestically that nobody else offers and that will be 190 00:09:00,690 --> 00:09:03,120 Ben Groundwater: popular again. It's just a case of how long it's 191 00:09:03,120 --> 00:09:04,800 Ben Groundwater: going to take them to get back to that position. 192 00:09:05,190 --> 00:09:07,679 Sean Aylmer: Just on that, where do you put Regional Express in 193 00:09:07,679 --> 00:09:12,718 Sean Aylmer: the domestic airlines spectrum? Obviously, Virgin is a strong competitor. 194 00:09:12,809 --> 00:09:16,588 Sean Aylmer: Rex is a stronger competitor. Can it keep it up? 195 00:09:17,129 --> 00:09:19,350 Ben Groundwater: Yeah, that's going to be really interesting to see because 196 00:09:19,350 --> 00:09:21,690 Ben Groundwater: they don't seem to have struggled in the same way 197 00:09:21,690 --> 00:09:23,460 Ben Groundwater: as Qantas has, and same way as Virgin has as 198 00:09:23,460 --> 00:09:26,458 Ben Groundwater: well, in terms of getting staff and running flights on 199 00:09:26,460 --> 00:09:29,279 Ben Groundwater: time. Their on- time performance is fantastic. It's really, really 200 00:09:29,280 --> 00:09:32,340 Ben Groundwater: good. But they've also got a much smaller fleet, fewer 201 00:09:32,340 --> 00:09:35,549 Ben Groundwater: employees. It's easier for them to deal with some of 202 00:09:35,549 --> 00:09:37,590 Ben Groundwater: the issues that all the other airlines are having to 203 00:09:37,860 --> 00:09:39,540 Ben Groundwater: deal with. I think if they stay the same size 204 00:09:39,540 --> 00:09:41,280 Ben Groundwater: as they are now, there's no reason why they can't 205 00:09:41,280 --> 00:09:45,270 Ben Groundwater: continue with that success. If they concentrate on expansion, then 206 00:09:45,270 --> 00:09:47,969 Ben Groundwater: you might see some of those issues coming into play 207 00:09:47,969 --> 00:09:50,130 Ben Groundwater: in the same way as Qantas and Virgin have had. 208 00:09:50,969 --> 00:09:52,740 Sean Aylmer: Do you like your job, Ben? I've always been jealous 209 00:09:52,740 --> 00:09:53,669 Sean Aylmer: of your job, to be honest. 210 00:09:54,208 --> 00:09:56,010 Ben Groundwater: I do. Look, it has its ups and downs, but, 211 00:09:56,130 --> 00:09:59,040 Ben Groundwater: all in all, I feel extremely lucky to be able 212 00:09:59,040 --> 00:10:00,929 Ben Groundwater: to do what I love and write about what I 213 00:10:00,929 --> 00:10:04,199 Ben Groundwater: love and share that passion with people and get paid 214 00:10:04,200 --> 00:10:07,530 Ben Groundwater: for it. I sometimes can't believe it's actually real, but, 215 00:10:07,530 --> 00:10:08,578 Ben Groundwater: yeah, I very much like it. 216 00:10:09,030 --> 00:10:10,589 Sean Aylmer: Thank you for talking to Fear and Greed, Ben. 217 00:10:10,770 --> 00:10:11,609 Ben Groundwater: No worries. Thanks, Sean. 218 00:10:12,179 --> 00:10:14,820 Sean Aylmer: That was travel writer Ben Groundwater. This is the Fear 219 00:10:14,820 --> 00:10:16,890 Sean Aylmer: and Greed daily interview. You join us every morning for 220 00:10:16,890 --> 00:10:19,560 Sean Aylmer: the full episode of Fear and Greed, Australia's most popular 221 00:10:19,650 --> 00:10:22,530 Sean Aylmer: business podcast. I'm Sean Aylmer. Enjoy your day.