WEBVTT - ‘Find some courage’: David Pocock on Labor’s flawed gambling laws 0:00:01.240 --> 0:00:08.680 From sports media. I'm Daniel James. This is seven am. 0:00:09.360 --> 0:00:12.240 They're hard to miss the number of gambling ads flooding 0:00:12.240 --> 0:00:15.560 our screens and devices every day. They've become such an 0:00:15.560 --> 0:00:19.599 inescapable part of sport that a parliamentary inquiry was formed 0:00:19.760 --> 0:00:21.759 which looked at the impacts the ads are having on 0:00:21.840 --> 0:00:24.599 the community. In the final months of her life, the 0:00:24.680 --> 0:00:27.560 Labour MP Peter Murphy was the chair of that inquiry, 0:00:27.880 --> 0:00:31.440 and after hearing from the gambling industry, dependent sporting codes 0:00:31.560 --> 0:00:35.920 and families impacted by gambling addiction, her position was unequivocal. 0:00:36.400 --> 0:00:40.199 All ads for online gambling should be banned. There's been 0:00:40.240 --> 0:00:43.320 more than fourteen months since the government received her recommendations, 0:00:43.720 --> 0:00:47.320 and yet the proliferation of gambling ads has continued unabated. 0:00:48.080 --> 0:00:50.159 Now the Government could be set toward a down a 0:00:50.240 --> 0:00:52.800 ban in favor of caps on the number of ads 0:00:52.840 --> 0:00:57.800 per hour. Today, Independent Senator David Pocock from the stranglehold 0:00:57.840 --> 0:01:01.320 the gambling industry has on Australian sport and politics and 0:01:01.360 --> 0:01:09.520 what could be done to change it? Is Tuesday August six. 0:01:18.760 --> 0:01:18.800 A. 0:01:18.880 --> 0:01:20.560 Senator Pocock, thanks for your time. 0:01:20.640 --> 0:01:21.960 Hey Daniel, good to be with you. 0:01:22.920 --> 0:01:25.120 It seems to be part of the business model but 0:01:25.200 --> 0:01:28.280 also part of the culture of several sports. Now we 0:01:28.400 --> 0:01:31.200 know Australians lose more on gambling than anywhere else in 0:01:31.240 --> 0:01:33.600 the world. Can you tell me about how big an 0:01:33.600 --> 0:01:35.720 issue it is and who was impacted by this? 0:01:36.200 --> 0:01:38.520 Well, we're the biggest losers in the world when it 0:01:38.560 --> 0:01:42.000 comes to gambling. We're number one on a per capita 0:01:42.040 --> 0:01:46.440 basis twenty five billion dollars a year. We're losing and 0:01:47.319 --> 0:01:51.720 no one's suggesting that adults be banned from gambling. This 0:01:51.880 --> 0:01:56.240 conversation really is around what does it mean when you 0:01:56.320 --> 0:02:00.800 have a sports betting industry that is spending two hundred 0:02:00.840 --> 0:02:04.240 and eighty million dollars a year on advertising, to the 0:02:04.280 --> 0:02:07.520 point that three out of four eight to sixteen year 0:02:07.520 --> 0:02:10.800 olds think that sports betting is now just a normal 0:02:10.840 --> 0:02:15.079 part of enjoying sport, it's what you do. And we've 0:02:15.120 --> 0:02:18.920 got gamblers anonymous groups reporting that more under eighteens are 0:02:18.960 --> 0:02:22.519 stigned to access their services. This is really about protecting 0:02:23.280 --> 0:02:27.120 young people and we have Peter Murphy's review. 0:02:27.320 --> 0:02:30.919 Thank you, Deputy Speaker. On behalf of the Standing Committee 0:02:30.919 --> 0:02:33.919 on Social Policy and Legal Affairs, I present the Committee's 0:02:33.960 --> 0:02:37.840 report entitled You Win some you lose more online gambling 0:02:37.880 --> 0:02:38.640 and its impacts on. 0:02:38.639 --> 0:02:42.640 Those a report that didn't mince its words. Peter Murphy 0:02:43.120 --> 0:02:46.480 said in her report, gambling ads are grooming children. 0:02:47.160 --> 0:02:51.920 And what we heard from submitters, ranging from people with 0:02:52.040 --> 0:02:57.280 lived experience to researchers and academics and even people in 0:02:57.320 --> 0:03:01.600 the industry, is that ankering around the edges isn't going. 0:03:01.480 --> 0:03:02.120 To cut it either. 0:03:02.600 --> 0:03:05.920 And they had a host of recommendations, including a three 0:03:06.000 --> 0:03:09.200 year phase out of all gambling advertising, working with sports 0:03:09.240 --> 0:03:13.840 and industries that will be affected, and instead of backing 0:03:13.880 --> 0:03:17.080 that piece of work in we're seeing the federal government 0:03:17.120 --> 0:03:19.399 not have the courage to take on the gambling industry. 0:03:20.160 --> 0:03:21.840 Haven't seen the full details, but it sounds like they're 0:03:21.840 --> 0:03:25.120 going to be introducing caps on advertising. 0:03:24.639 --> 0:03:26.720 So they may not be a total band, but there 0:03:26.760 --> 0:03:29.120 may be a ban on gambling gigs on social media. 0:03:29.600 --> 0:03:33.200 It seems like the government is leaning towards implementing that. 0:03:33.240 --> 0:03:36.560 Aspect of the report, what impact do you think an 0:03:36.560 --> 0:03:37.920 online ban will have. 0:03:38.680 --> 0:03:42.680 One of the really worrying things talking to researchers who've 0:03:42.680 --> 0:03:45.240 been looking at this is because these gambling companies have 0:03:45.440 --> 0:03:50.920 such huge budgets, not just to place ads on social 0:03:50.960 --> 0:03:55.280 media and online platforms, but also to develop them. The 0:03:55.320 --> 0:03:58.840 feedback from particularly young young men and boys is that 0:03:58.840 --> 0:04:02.640 they actually really enjoy the ads they're entertaining. It's their 0:04:02.640 --> 0:04:07.680 favorite sports star or it's Shaquille O'Neil, and they're funny 0:04:08.000 --> 0:04:11.560 and then they really speak to that audience. And that's 0:04:11.560 --> 0:04:15.960 incredibly worrying because what they're pushing is something that we 0:04:16.120 --> 0:04:22.080 know has significant harm and I think only a total 0:04:22.120 --> 0:04:25.280 phase band will ensure that we delive on what Australians 0:04:25.839 --> 0:04:30.200 overwhelmingly want and what advocates are telling us is needed 0:04:30.240 --> 0:04:32.720 to start to turn this around. When you implement a 0:04:32.720 --> 0:04:36.480 patchy ban, you're going to get patchy results and companies 0:04:36.520 --> 0:04:38.600 will find workarounds and loopholes. 0:04:39.080 --> 0:04:41.479 And so what we've heard over the weekend in relation 0:04:41.600 --> 0:04:46.040 to that, Senator is that the government is not looking 0:04:46.080 --> 0:04:50.919 to have the same band for commercial television. We're looking 0:04:50.960 --> 0:04:54.279 at two gaming ads per hour and each channel until 0:04:54.279 --> 0:04:56.720 ten pm and banning ads an hour before and after 0:04:56.720 --> 0:04:59.039 a live sport. What do you make of that? 0:04:59.120 --> 0:05:05.360 As a so we kin'd have gambling companies dictating government policy. Clearly, 0:05:06.279 --> 0:05:10.200 the government rather than backing in a report that had 0:05:10.520 --> 0:05:14.960 the backing of every party in the Parliament of Independence. 0:05:15.800 --> 0:05:19.040 They're saying, well, we see your report, but actually we're 0:05:19.040 --> 0:05:21.520 going to do more, something that's more in line with 0:05:21.520 --> 0:05:26.440 what the gambling industry wants. And it's not hard to 0:05:26.520 --> 0:05:30.159 understand why when you see the FI documents that reveal 0:05:30.279 --> 0:05:34.800 that the Minnesota Office met sixty six times with gambling 0:05:34.839 --> 0:05:38.359 executives in six months. That's a lot of meetings about 0:05:38.400 --> 0:05:42.800 an upcoming reform. And you talk about advocates really trying 0:05:42.839 --> 0:05:46.719 to push for Australian's health and well being to put 0:05:46.720 --> 0:05:49.359 front and center in this, they certainly not getting that 0:05:49.480 --> 0:05:53.080 kind of access and this is having a very real 0:05:53.120 --> 0:05:57.880 impact on thousands and thousands of Australians. I was recently 0:05:57.880 --> 0:06:01.080 at a parliamentary event on on gambling and we had 0:06:01.360 --> 0:06:04.839 a family come and talk about their son who struggled 0:06:04.880 --> 0:06:08.880 with a sports betting addiction to the point that he'd 0:06:09.040 --> 0:06:13.680 tragically taken his own life. And I remember sitting there 0:06:13.880 --> 0:06:16.960 as they read his suicide note, thinking what are we doing. 0:06:17.800 --> 0:06:20.320 How can we still be debating whether we should be 0:06:20.360 --> 0:06:26.360 allowing rampant advertising for gambling while families are losing their 0:06:27.279 --> 0:06:29.400 mostly sons to these products. 0:06:33.320 --> 0:06:36.599 After the break the links the gambling lobby has gone 0:06:36.640 --> 0:06:52.440 to to prevent change, Senator Pacock. The parliamentary inquiry heard 0:06:52.480 --> 0:06:55.839 from advocates for change, but also heard from gambling companies 0:06:55.839 --> 0:06:57.040 and the sports codes. 0:06:57.720 --> 0:07:00.560 And while the IFIL hasn't a prominent sponsori relationship with 0:07:00.600 --> 0:07:03.119 their betting partner, sports bet and Product for Ranger. 0:07:03.279 --> 0:07:06.799 Gilan mclochlin was chief executive of the AFL at the time. 0:07:07.560 --> 0:07:09.960 In his submission he talked about the fact that gambling 0:07:10.000 --> 0:07:14.360 revenue generated by the AFL is reinvested into grassroots sport 0:07:14.800 --> 0:07:15.960 and he opposed the ban. 0:07:16.280 --> 0:07:19.360 On our sport which allows us to invest in integrity 0:07:19.520 --> 0:07:22.160 and the grass roots participation in the growth of our sports. 0:07:23.240 --> 0:07:25.400 We believe if the band was to be implemented, what 0:07:25.440 --> 0:07:27.880 impact do you think would have on grassroots sport? 0:07:28.160 --> 0:07:31.040 And this was part of the consideration of the Murphy 0:07:31.080 --> 0:07:36.320 Review and that's why they proposed a three year phased approach, 0:07:36.640 --> 0:07:41.600 as well as a range of other recommendations like establishing 0:07:41.600 --> 0:07:45.680 a national gambling regulator, developing a national harm minimization strategy, 0:07:45.920 --> 0:07:49.920 a levy on gambling operators to pay for some of 0:07:49.920 --> 0:07:53.200 the harms that they cause. And we've heard from sports 0:07:53.560 --> 0:07:56.119 when tobacco advertising was banned. We heard all the same 0:07:56.680 --> 0:08:00.440 arguments that it would mean less revenue. It tends to 0:08:00.440 --> 0:08:05.960 be existential for them. For me, this is about one 0:08:06.360 --> 0:08:12.800 putting Australian's health and well being ahead of mostly multinational 0:08:12.960 --> 0:08:16.960 gambling companies and secondly, really trying to go to the question, well, 0:08:17.040 --> 0:08:21.480 what is sport for? Is sport something that is there 0:08:21.680 --> 0:08:25.720 to be enjoyed, somewhere where people can feel like they're 0:08:25.760 --> 0:08:28.600 part of something bigger than themselves, that they can challenge 0:08:29.040 --> 0:08:32.960 themselves and then when they support their favorite team, to 0:08:33.360 --> 0:08:38.680 feel that excitement and exhilaration of supporting a team with 0:08:38.800 --> 0:08:41.560 thousands of other people and being part of that crowd. 0:08:42.520 --> 0:08:47.280 Or is it simply a product that allows administrators to 0:08:47.360 --> 0:08:50.480 flog other things that we know are harmful and are 0:08:50.520 --> 0:08:54.840 particularly harmful to young people. And what I'm hearing as 0:08:54.840 --> 0:08:58.320 an independent senator is that people want sport to be 0:08:58.360 --> 0:09:01.240 the first thing and that's going to mean that we 0:09:01.640 --> 0:09:07.120 have to break this nexus between gambling and professional sport. 0:09:07.559 --> 0:09:11.199 Former AFL boss Gil mcgloughlin has been appointed as the 0:09:11.240 --> 0:09:13.600 new CEO of Tabcorp. 0:09:13.840 --> 0:09:17.520 And yeah, it's no surprise that someone like Gil McLachlin 0:09:17.640 --> 0:09:20.440 then goes and works for the gambling industry. 0:09:20.760 --> 0:09:23.600 He is a familiar face to many, having steered the 0:09:23.640 --> 0:09:26.560 AFL to great success for a long time, and he 0:09:26.640 --> 0:09:30.040 joins Tabcorp. Now that's got some challenges on its hands. 0:09:30.200 --> 0:09:33.400 I dare say they wouldn't be making that higher if 0:09:33.400 --> 0:09:37.240 we had actually implemented the Murphy Review recommendations. 0:09:37.800 --> 0:09:40.880 What does it say about the relationship between sport and 0:09:40.920 --> 0:09:44.040 gambling that someone like Gilian McLoughlin has gone on as 0:09:44.080 --> 0:09:47.319 the new role of chief executive of Tabcorp, Australia's largest 0:09:47.360 --> 0:09:48.120 gambling company. 0:09:48.200 --> 0:09:51.000 Well, it says that it's with some particular sports, it's 0:09:51.040 --> 0:09:56.480 become totally enmeshed. It's no longer just a sponsor. It's 0:09:56.559 --> 0:09:59.920 part of the business model and we have to break 0:10:00.120 --> 0:10:03.840 and that's what the Murphy Review did. And this is 0:10:03.880 --> 0:10:07.800 something that Independence and minor parties in the Parliament have 0:10:07.920 --> 0:10:10.600 been pushing the Government on because we're here to represent 0:10:11.679 --> 0:10:14.480 our communities, we're not here to represent the gambling industry. 0:10:14.679 --> 0:10:18.040 And what we're hearing is that people want this dealt with. 0:10:18.200 --> 0:10:21.360 There's the political will in the Parliament and it's incredibly 0:10:21.760 --> 0:10:25.120 disappointing and I think displays a real lack of courage 0:10:25.360 --> 0:10:28.079 from the government to not follow through with it. 0:10:28.920 --> 0:10:32.480 Last year, the Communications Minister Michelle Roland faced calls to 0:10:32.520 --> 0:10:35.640 resign after it was revealed that sports Bet had made 0:10:35.679 --> 0:10:40.079 financial contributions to her election campaign. You also mentioned earlier 0:10:40.080 --> 0:10:44.559 that the minister has met with gambling companies on numerous occasions. 0:10:44.960 --> 0:10:47.760 What faith should Australians have in the political process when 0:10:47.800 --> 0:10:48.960 we hear stories like that. 0:10:50.280 --> 0:10:55.520 Well, I was very concerned about hearing that sports Bet 0:10:55.559 --> 0:10:59.080 had made donations. The Minister hadn't declared them because they 0:10:59.080 --> 0:11:04.240 were below the the threshold, and the government sort of said, well, 0:11:04.440 --> 0:11:09.000 there's been no wrong committed here, which I think points 0:11:09.080 --> 0:11:14.319 to how sort of lacking political donation and transparency arrangements 0:11:14.320 --> 0:11:17.319 when it comes to our elections. And then also I 0:11:17.360 --> 0:11:21.319 think when it comes to lobbying, we only know about 0:11:21.360 --> 0:11:25.480 all these meetings because of FOI requests. There's currently a 0:11:25.600 --> 0:11:31.880 very loose lobbyist register, ministerial diaries aren't released. These are 0:11:31.880 --> 0:11:34.760 all things that I think should also happened. But the 0:11:34.800 --> 0:11:38.440 most worrying thing is that after the whole thing, after 0:11:38.520 --> 0:11:43.079 the election campaign, the minister then gets wined and dined 0:11:43.080 --> 0:11:46.679 on her birthday by the gambling industry and again doesn't 0:11:46.720 --> 0:11:52.760 think that there's any issue with that, which I think 0:11:52.840 --> 0:11:57.200 is pretty extraordinary. And I think when you see the 0:11:57.280 --> 0:12:02.400 Murphy Review alongside the Center from the majority of Australians, 0:12:02.440 --> 0:12:04.360 you know, I think the last polling I saw was 0:12:04.400 --> 0:12:09.719 seventy percent of Australians want a total gambling ad ban. 0:12:10.520 --> 0:12:13.160 When you compare that to what the government's now going 0:12:13.200 --> 0:12:17.720 to offer up as their solution, you have to start 0:12:17.760 --> 0:12:23.360 asking questions about vested interests, about access, about the power 0:12:23.840 --> 0:12:27.200 of lobbyists and industry to get the outcome they want, 0:12:27.240 --> 0:12:34.600 not the outcome that's good for Australians. This requires political 0:12:35.440 --> 0:12:40.439 courage and people want to see this happen and this 0:12:40.520 --> 0:12:43.040 will certainly be something that I will continue to push 0:12:43.800 --> 0:12:47.000 the government on now and into the election. 0:12:50.160 --> 0:12:51.840 Send it to pay a Cock. Thank you for your time, 0:12:52.120 --> 0:12:57.240 Thanks for having me, Daniel Chairs. If you're affected by 0:12:57.280 --> 0:13:01.160 gambling and need support, there is a website help online 0:13:01.360 --> 0:13:20.600 dot org dot aye. Also in the New Use today, 0:13:21.280 --> 0:13:25.200 ASIOL has lifted the terror threat to probable. Asio's director 0:13:25.240 --> 0:13:28.760 General Mike Burgess said more Australians are being radicalized and 0:13:28.800 --> 0:13:33.800 more quickly, making our security situation volatile. And unpredictable. He 0:13:33.880 --> 0:13:36.319 said the conflict in Gaza has been a significant driver, 0:13:36.679 --> 0:13:38.880 though was not the cause for raising the terror threat. 0:13:39.559 --> 0:13:41.320 The terror threat has been in the lower level of 0:13:41.400 --> 0:13:45.120 possible since November twenty twenty two, and the new Minister 0:13:45.200 --> 0:13:48.280 for Indigenous Australians Well and Dearie McCarthy says the Federal 0:13:48.320 --> 0:13:51.840 government has not abandoned plans to establish a Macarata truth commission. 0:13:52.520 --> 0:13:55.600 At the Garment Festival in Northeast darnham Land over the weekend, 0:13:55.960 --> 0:13:58.320 mister Albanez he said a truth telling commission was not 0:13:58.360 --> 0:14:01.840 what the government was proposing, instead saying he met Macarata 0:14:02.000 --> 0:14:06.680 as simply coming together after a struggle. Key Yes campaigners 0:14:06.679 --> 0:14:09.840 have criticized mister Albinezi for breaking a key election promise, 0:14:10.240 --> 0:14:13.199 but Senator McCarthy says he was misrepresented and the government 0:14:13.240 --> 0:14:16.559 is sticking with its commitment. That's awful today. If you've 0:14:16.600 --> 0:14:19.320 enjoyed this episode, please share it with a friend. It 0:14:19.400 --> 0:14:23.359 helps a lot. I'm Daniel James. This is seven AM. 0:14:23.400 --> 0:14:32.080 Thanks for listening.