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Speaker 1: So when I look at your high performance or which

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Speaker 1: about where where does one team fit in an organization?

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Speaker 1: It's at the intersection of psychological safety and collective accountability.

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Speaker 1: That's where you get high performance because you don't I mean,

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Speaker 1: you need to look at the neuroscience around learning.

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Speaker 2: You do not learn in a safe environment.

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Speaker 3: Everyone. Before we get into this week's podcast, we got

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Speaker 3: a pretty cool announcement to make you are not able

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Speaker 3: to connect with us. We have a pretty cool little.

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Speaker 4: Widget that's on the website. Just go to Poleteiler dot

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Speaker 4: biz forwards last podcast and near the top of the piers,

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Speaker 4: you'll see a little icon that says send a message

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Speaker 4: to the pole Teeler podcast.

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Speaker 3: And so what we can do with that you just

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Speaker 3: click on that and then you send us an audio

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Speaker 3: message and we will get the audio message. The first

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Speaker 3: thing I want to do with using it is actually

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Speaker 3: do and ask me anything episode. So all you gotta

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Speaker 3: do if you got a question that we want me

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Speaker 3: to cover is just go to Paul Taylor dot b

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Speaker 3: is z Forward Slash podcast and on start the recording,

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Speaker 3: and then send us a message about what you would

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Speaker 3: like me to talk about, and they ask me anything

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Speaker 3: and leave your name. We will call it out on

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Speaker 3: the show. I'll get that all put together. And the

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Speaker 3: other thing you can do is just leave us a

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Speaker 3: message about what you like about the podcast, what you

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Speaker 3: don't like about the podcast day I talk too much,

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Speaker 3: all of that sort of stuff, and just give us

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Speaker 3: some feedback.

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Speaker 4: And we will use that to continuously improve. So looking

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Speaker 4: forward to hearing from you now, I hover the podcast.

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Speaker 3: Great Winter, welcome to the podcast.

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Speaker 2: Well, thank you pleasure.

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Speaker 3: Now we were just chatting before coming on. There's quite

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Speaker 3: a lot of connections between us, my PhD supervisor Eugene.

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Speaker 3: I mean, you know very well. You also know John Crampton,

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Speaker 3: Jeff Bond, who are like yourself, kind of legends in

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Speaker 3: the sports psychology movement in Australia. Just give our listeners

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Speaker 3: a bit of a sense of your career because it's

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Speaker 3: pretty stellar. And you've both spack and forth between a

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Speaker 3: couple of different dominions, right I have.

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Speaker 1: Paul started in the organizational psych area with what was

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Speaker 1: then Coopers and librand was sort of precursor at the

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Speaker 1: Price Waterhouse Coopers.

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Speaker 2: But I was also playing first.

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Speaker 1: Class cricket and then South Australian is the sport we're

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Speaker 1: looking for a psychologist and they wanted to recruit somebody

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Speaker 1: that had been playing sport an elite level. So I

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Speaker 1: did that job for a few years and then really

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Speaker 1: just have the opportunity to combine those two passions of

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Speaker 1: the organization on the sports psych area. So have the

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Speaker 1: opportunity to sort of lead the sports site group for

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Speaker 1: three Olympics with Prosperot house Coopers in their Strategic Change Group.

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Speaker 1: And more recently last ten last decade or so, I've

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Speaker 1: had my own consulting business, Think One Team so fuss

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Speaker 1: continuing to do a bit of work in the cricket

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Speaker 1: area as well. So performance psychology is a thread that

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Speaker 1: runs through it mix of sport and business.

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Speaker 3: And just for listen, so back whenever you did you

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Speaker 3: you became a sports psychologist. Originally there was no actual

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Speaker 3: professional and new degree or qualification in sports psychologists back then,

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Speaker 3: was there no.

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Speaker 1: No, There were no causes or programs in Australia at all.

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Speaker 1: So it was very much I mean, for me, it

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Speaker 1: was very much applying a lot of the organizational psychology

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Speaker 1: lessons and I think the approach that I taught was

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Speaker 1: probably worked quite well because the setup when I was

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Speaker 1: working with athletes, was a lot about working with the coaches,

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Speaker 1: and I think I've always felt that the approach I've

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Speaker 1: wanted to take is to help the coaches to create

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Speaker 1: the environment where the athletes are able to perform. And

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Speaker 1: yes there is still the individual work with the athletes

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Speaker 1: as well. So probably separated my approach a bit maybe

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Speaker 1: from John and Jeff, for example, who were AIS for

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Speaker 1: a while, Jeff for a long time, and then John

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Speaker 1: was there and also Usathale's Institute of Sport.

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Speaker 3: So when you were doing the Olympics, were you more

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Speaker 3: in terms of that organization or stuff rather than the

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Speaker 3: one on one with athletes.

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Speaker 1: First up, I was working quite a lot with the shooters,

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Speaker 1: with a number of sort of individual sports, but for

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Speaker 1: Sydney in particular, I remember at that particular point, I

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Speaker 1: was really not doing much sports psychology work at all,

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Speaker 1: and herbe idiot was heading up Athletes Services and just

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Speaker 1: contacted me and said, but we just need someone to

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Speaker 1: help to do the setup. We're gonna have nine hundred team,

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Speaker 1: about nine hundred and seventy, and we need somebody to

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Speaker 1: work with the managers, with coaches and.

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Speaker 2: To coordinate the psych area.

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Speaker 1: And I remember having the conversation with Jeff saying I

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Speaker 1: felt like a bit of an imposter. He said, and

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Speaker 1: it's fine. There's enough sports sykes here to look at

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Speaker 1: the athletes. Why don't you go and sort out a

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Speaker 1: bit of the corporate and the corporating tree. So yeah,

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Speaker 1: So that one felt a bit different to previous times

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Speaker 1: where I was much more connected to the athletes out

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Speaker 1: cycling and shooting and obviously sort of individuals that I

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Speaker 1: knew from own Institute of Sport as well.

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Speaker 3: So, m given that you've had a food in both

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Speaker 3: camps for a long period sport and org sake, what

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Speaker 3: would you say are the mean differences in terms of

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Speaker 3: performance psychology and corporations versus performance psychology with athletes and

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Speaker 3: sports teams? Anythink jumps to Maine.

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Speaker 1: It's a great question, And I think in sport you've

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Speaker 1: also got to separate the individual sports from the team sports.

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Speaker 1: I think if you if you move into yeah, I

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Speaker 1: did some week in Australian cricket team for a while

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Speaker 1: and I've worked with one of the AFL teams and

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Speaker 1: there's there's similarities to business there, Whereas I think the

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Speaker 1: more you move into the individual sports, there's a difference,

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Speaker 1: but I might sort of put a caveat on that

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Speaker 1: in a moment. I mean, there's no question when you're

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Speaker 1: working with Olympic level and so on, that when they're

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Speaker 1: talking higher performance, they are talking high performance. You know

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Speaker 1: it's world class, it's high standards, it's one hundred percent commitment.

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Speaker 1: You don't get that, to be blunt, you don't get

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Speaker 1: that in many corporations. You might get it across a

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Speaker 1: leadership group. You might get it across she's just spent

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Speaker 1: the morning with a with a team.

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Speaker 2: That are working.

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Speaker 1: They're quite a specialized team in the defense area. They're

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Speaker 1: pretty committed to world class and standards and so on.

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Speaker 1: But I think i'd probably say corporate it's more complex,

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Speaker 1: it's slower, it's just kind of slower burn, and often

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Speaker 1: there's less clarity about what success may or may not mean.

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Speaker 1: Obviously in sales areas and it's on or a project,

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Speaker 1: it's clearer. But then having said that, for the individual,

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Speaker 1: I think there's so many lessons that we can help

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Speaker 1: business leaders who are now experiencing conditions that are more uncertain,

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Speaker 1: the more complex they do need. I'm actually I actually

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Speaker 1: write a book in my God nineteen ninety one or

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Speaker 1: ninety two called the business Athlete, and I think that's now. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: in many ways, I've kind of a clow. That's really

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Speaker 1: what we need to be helping a lot of people

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Speaker 1: to do now is to treat themselves, you know, because

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Speaker 1: if you want to operate in a high demand environment,

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Speaker 1: you gotta look after yourself. You can look after your teammates,

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Speaker 1: and then you've got to be able to know what

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Speaker 1: matters and focus on what you need to be able

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Speaker 1: to do. And that applies in any high demand environment

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Speaker 1: as well. So I think you can learn lots from

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Speaker 1: it from each and you can't bundle all the corporate

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Speaker 1: stuff together either, because every culture's got its uniqueness as well.

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Speaker 3: Interestingly, the business Athlete, I Reckon, Jim Lure and Tilney

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Speaker 3: Schwartz actually probably stole that off you with their corporate athlete,

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Speaker 3: do you remember now.

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Speaker 2: I think that came later within Lar. I'm not quite

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Speaker 2: sure what the I mean.

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Speaker 1: My pronunciations might not be right, but he'd done mental

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Speaker 1: toughness I ickon just before that. Interesting, it was about

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Speaker 1: ninety two something. I was about thirty thirty two years ago,

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Speaker 1: But for me, that was really the sort of transition

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Speaker 1: point of in some respects going well, I've worked in

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Speaker 1: business now it's spent sixteen years in.

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Speaker 2: The sport area full time.

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Speaker 1: But I actually wanted to both of them and I

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Speaker 1: had this fabulous sort of contract with PwC, who had

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Speaker 1: a strategic change group.

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Speaker 2: So go to this wonderful experience.

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Speaker 1: Now I'm working with some of the top athletes and

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Speaker 1: coaches in the in the world and the Australian groups,

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Speaker 1: while also working with people at the Singapore promenis is

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Speaker 1: offered and large corporates around the world.

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Speaker 2: So it was a kind of surreal experient. That was

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Speaker 2: my university of learning about.

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Speaker 1: Performance psychology because as you well know, yeah, there's the

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Speaker 1: kind of science and the evidence, but yeah, but you're

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Speaker 1: also going into spaces that people haven't done the research on,

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Speaker 1: so you've got to create your own learning environment in

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Speaker 1: there and testing environment as well.

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Speaker 3: And do you find with athletes, particularly the individuals, that

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Speaker 3: there is a pretty big eagle with some of these guys.

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Speaker 3: I mean there has to be for the nature of it, right,

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Speaker 3: to be right up there amongst the elite of the world,

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Speaker 3: you've got to have a pretty big eagle. And it

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Speaker 3: is the psychology for those guys. Does it have to

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Speaker 3: be different than teams and corporates.

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Speaker 1: It's the interesting one of the ego, isn't it, Because

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Speaker 1: there's a level of self belief. But then for many

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Speaker 1: athletes underneath one of their greatest drivers is the sense of.

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Speaker 2: A fear. Yeah, that's that fear of not being good.

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Speaker 1: Now, it's some of those elements of perfectionism which drive

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Speaker 1: you to a certain point.

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Speaker 2: But then there's a cost. It's a really tough one

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Speaker 2: to generalize on.

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Speaker 1: There's no question you have to have a level of

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Speaker 1: ego to be able to put yourself in that situation

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Speaker 1: and back yourself and so on. But there's and obviously

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Speaker 1: you can get maybe the expression, you can get away

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Speaker 1: with it more than an individual environment. In a team environment,

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Speaker 1: obviously you've got responsibilities to your teammates and you're having

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Speaker 1: to kind of sometimes trade off. Now, am I going

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Speaker 1: to go for the basket versus pass at etca? Whereas

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Speaker 1: the individuals are much more and can be much more

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Speaker 1: focused or much more selfish, and some respects need to

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Speaker 1: be because that level of economy.

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Speaker 2: It's you. You're a tennis player. You're out there by

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Speaker 2: yourself and I think having played.

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Speaker 1: Sport, that was one of the things I guess I

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Speaker 1: was always very mindful of, was like, i might be

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Speaker 1: trying to help this person, but I'm not the one

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Speaker 1: going out in the middle there. I'm not the Roosevelt,

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Speaker 1: I think, the O, the one who's in the arena. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: they're doing it, so they've got to find a way

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Speaker 1: to do it. I mean, for some of the ways

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Speaker 1: they do it have other costs. And as somebody said

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Speaker 1: to me once, it's so true, just because they're elite

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Speaker 1: physically doesn't mean they're elite psychologically.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, good plot. And that's where the sports psychology comes

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Speaker 3: in really really strongly, doesn't that it does?

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Speaker 1: And in some ways the things that this is where

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Speaker 1: it kind of get get sort of challenging because sometimes

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Speaker 1: the stuff that will drive the outcome performance can.

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Speaker 2: Also drive a level of self destruction.

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Speaker 1: So you know, what is that, right balance between a

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Speaker 1: level of obsessiveness that drives you to high standards versus

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Speaker 1: a level of obsessiveness that causes you to dere damage

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Speaker 1: to yourself or to physically mentally, or to relationships as well.

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Speaker 1: And it's yeah, I mean, it's sort of abnormal psychology

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Speaker 1: because when you're talking about the Olympics, You're talking about

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Speaker 1: the best of the best, and that isn't normal, that's

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Speaker 1: not average. You've got to find something out of the box.

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Speaker 1: And I suppose we look at the sort of don't know,

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Speaker 1: like the Roger Federers of this world and go, wow,

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Speaker 1: isn't that just a wonderful model? But I've never seen

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Speaker 1: people who don't have lots of self doubts and lots

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Speaker 1: of sort of inner demons and challenges, and some of

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Speaker 1: them sport and proving themselves in sport is a way

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Speaker 1: to deal with that, but sadly, for some it doesn't

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Speaker 1: actually optimately prove that. Even winning an Olympic gold medal

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Speaker 1: was steel. That sense of I'm not good enough for

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Speaker 1: what I do is not good enough for Wow?

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Speaker 3: Is that all it is?

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Speaker 2: And I think it's an interesting challenge.

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Speaker 1: And it does apply across the corporate area as well,

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Speaker 1: about how do how do we personally define what success

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Speaker 1: means for us all the life that we want to live.

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Speaker 2: And you know, we're all we're all learning that journey

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Speaker 2: the whole way through.

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Speaker 3: There's got to be so many take ropes right at

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Speaker 3: that elite level. And I think back to my time

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Speaker 3: in the military as well. You know, there's a take

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Speaker 3: rope with athletes around training and being optimately prepared and

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Speaker 3: then just tepping over into overtraining syndrome. Right, that is

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Speaker 3: so narrow that line. And then with the psychology, as

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Speaker 3: you said, that obsessiveness, but that tightrope too, it's going

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Speaker 3: down into a horrible, horrible vortex, right, and the perfectionisms

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Speaker 3: that that's required. There's just got to be so many

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Speaker 3: different type ropes that you've got to help them naviget

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Speaker 3: as a as a psychologist.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and a lot of that then, says you or no,

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Speaker 1: goes to the quality of the support network that's around them.

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Speaker 1: Their coach, their their colleagues, they're sometimes the medical team.

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Speaker 2: The quality of the people that people put.

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Speaker 1: Around on that tells you a bit about them, particularly

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Speaker 1: if they have a level of choice in that obviously,

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Speaker 1: But I suppose the sort of thing that we you know,

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Speaker 1: well will continually whenever I work with a corporate group,

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Speaker 1: one of the first things I'll ever take them through

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Speaker 1: is well, just have a look at what's the nature

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Speaker 1: of the challenges you're facing, and then.

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Speaker 2: We'll sort of go, well, okay, so what extent are those.

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Speaker 1: Technical challenges, linear challenges where there's kind of a there's

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Speaker 1: a logical way to solve this problem. We've got to

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Speaker 1: build a bridge. Fine, how do you build the bridge? Right, Well,

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Speaker 1: there's a body of evidence, there's engineering and so on.

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Speaker 1: But then you go, well, okay, that's how you build

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Speaker 1: a bridge. But then let's assume you've got a community

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Speaker 1: on one side in the community on the other and

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Speaker 1: they aving a fight with each other. How do you

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Speaker 1: now solve that? That's not technical, that's adaptive, that's nonlinear,

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Speaker 1: And therefore you've got to develop an ability in a

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Speaker 1: way to learn and experience your way through that.

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Speaker 2: And I think for me that's part of the sort

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Speaker 2: of maturity.

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Speaker 1: It certainly immaturity you're trying to develop in athletes, and

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Speaker 1: it's also the capability that you're trying to develop within

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Speaker 1: leaders and teams in business to be able to deal

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Speaker 1: with that balance of the technical and the adaptive, because

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Speaker 1: they're completely different, completely different skill sets. You know, one's

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Speaker 1: about being disciplined and focused and checking it off and executing.

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Speaker 1: The other ones about dealing with nuances and uncertainty and

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Speaker 1: ambiguity and people's emotions. And there's no right answer, You've

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Speaker 1: got to make the answer right rather than kind of

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Speaker 1: find the right answer.

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Speaker 2: That means you're then dealing with levels of frustration and

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Speaker 2: so on.

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Speaker 1: So to me, I guess what I'm always trying to

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Speaker 1: do is help people to develop kind of like a mindset.

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Speaker 2: If you're like fact, how do I approach this?

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Speaker 1: I mean, you listen to one of your podcasts recently

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Speaker 1: talking about the sort of experience in the Antarctic, You

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Speaker 1: know that sort of Yeah, there's lots of technical challenges there,

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Speaker 1: but a lot of it's about learning your way through it,

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Speaker 1: isn't it and leaning into it. And it's that ability

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Speaker 1: And I think I learned that over time that it's

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Speaker 1: it's certainly in business, helf.

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Speaker 2: And so I'm not here to build a team.

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Speaker 1: I'm here to help you how to learn because your

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Speaker 1: environment's going to constantly challenge and change for you. So

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Speaker 1: how do we become fast learners who can then adapt

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Speaker 1: as we move forward? And that's a hell of a

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Speaker 1: mindset shift for someone who sees themselves as a subject

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Speaker 1: matter expert. That delivers the guys some of the guys

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Speaker 1: I had in the group this morning, I mean, they're

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Speaker 1: some of the top engineers in defense in Australia. But

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Speaker 1: the biggest challenges aren't technical. The biggest challenges are adaptive,

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Speaker 1: dealing with stakeholders and dealing with their team teams and

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Speaker 1: trying to get people to work across boundaries and deal

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Speaker 1: with conflicting priorities and so on. And they all have

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Speaker 1: a kind of cognitive load and a kind of emotional

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Speaker 1: load that what you're trying to do, I guess as

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Speaker 1: a psych is to help them develop some skills and

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Speaker 1: approaches to deal with it. Ultimately, you try to strengthen them.

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Speaker 1: It's no different than physical training. You can help the person,

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Speaker 1: but thik able to learn some are doing. It's always

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Speaker 1: been my philosophy.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, absolutely, Let's not talk about team cultures. Right, So

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Speaker 3: you've written a best selling book, Think One Team. What

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Speaker 3: does it take for a team to truly operate as one?

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Speaker 3: And how have those requirements So a couple of parts

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Speaker 3: of this question. Have there those requirements evolved over time?

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Speaker 3: But then how are those requirements different when you get

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Speaker 3: into big organizations which often have a metric structure where

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Speaker 3: there is lots of competing agendas from different parts of

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Speaker 3: the business. Right, Because that starts to get tricked. So

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Speaker 3: let let's take the easy bit first, generally, what does

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Speaker 3: it teach job red as one? And then are both

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Speaker 3: the changes over time? And then when we get into

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Speaker 3: complex businesses.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, Look, I like go back to some of

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Speaker 1: the work that Hackman did sort of twenty years ago

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Speaker 1: in performance psychology around teamwork, and he coined these two

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Speaker 1: phrases mission cohesion and social cohesion. So if you think

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Speaker 1: the sort of mission cohesion is, yeah, we're going up

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Speaker 1: the mountain, We're going to get up there summit and

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Speaker 1: get back successfully, so that's the mission, and then you

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Speaker 1: kind of go up the social cohesion of the level

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Speaker 1: of trust and confidence and so on and each other.

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Speaker 1: And I think that to some extent is the first

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Speaker 1: thing to try and work out with the team. Do

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Speaker 1: we have a mix of both, because I think, like

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Speaker 1: the group I was working with this morning, this social

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Speaker 1: cohesion is actually going pretty well, but I think they're

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Speaker 1: still kind of struggling a bit with what the mission

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Speaker 1: is because it's complex and they have lots of different

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Speaker 1: elements to it. So unlike a sports team that says

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Speaker 1: we want to win the premiership or we want a

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Speaker 1: final at the Olympics, it's not as clear for them

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Speaker 1: and things keep changing. Obviously can't go into detail, but

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Speaker 1: things keep changing.

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Speaker 2: So i'd start with that point.

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Speaker 1: I think it's that point of are we endeavoring to

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Speaker 1: because if it's social cohesion you're looking for, then you

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Speaker 1: are still trying to create a sense of identity.

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Speaker 2: Now why are we here together?

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Speaker 1: And the metaphor I was using right at the start

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Speaker 1: of this morning session was, look, you know, I just

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Speaker 1: actually went to a memorial service at a cricket club

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Speaker 1: that I was part of earlier in the week and

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Speaker 1: I just said them, you know, it's reflecting back over

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Speaker 1: four decades the number of people that have invested in

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Speaker 1: building that club and the things that they're done to

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Speaker 1: build that club and its culture and its history and

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Speaker 1: its resources and its.

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Speaker 2: Artifacts and so on. So are you investing in this team?

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Speaker 2: What is this identity?

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Speaker 1: So I think that's almost the first thing, is that

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Speaker 1: that sense of the team having its own identity then

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Speaker 1: establishing that purpose. Why always use a simple model? Wrote

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Speaker 1: a book called High Performance Leadership almost twenty years ago now,

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Speaker 1: came out of the back end of the in the

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Speaker 1: Olympics and the work with PwC and PwC had done

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Speaker 1: a series of helped us to do and coordinated a

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Speaker 1: series of interviews and evans gathering across a vast range

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Speaker 1: of different types of organizations, but the majority of them

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Speaker 1: were organizations that operated in small, fast teams, so special military,

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Speaker 1: emergency medicine, first responders, some business areas and so on,

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Speaker 1: and we were trying to look at what what is

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Speaker 1: it that seems to enable you to create that environment

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Speaker 1: where you just have one team, but you can form teams,

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Speaker 1: and teams can come together and they can go and

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Speaker 1: execute things, and we land I won't go through the

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Speaker 1: more detailed model, but the simple, the simplest thing that

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Speaker 1: I could come up with was align, collaborate, learn, Because

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Speaker 1: when I looked at every one of those teams, and

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Speaker 1: I apologize to anybody who's ever had a knee reconstruction,

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Speaker 1: but the letters are ACL, which are very unfortunate that

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Speaker 1: many of my clients know exactly what an ACL is.

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Speaker 1: Is the last thing you need. But if you think

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Speaker 1: probably of any you've worked with, there's an alignment, there's

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Speaker 1: a collaboration, there's a learning, and if you put that

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Speaker 1: into a loop, then you've got to spin that loop

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Speaker 1: at the speed of relevance. So remember we do some

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Speaker 1: work with fire and risky useap bales and they're looking

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Speaker 1: at that, going, we got three of them.

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Speaker 3: We've got like a big.

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Speaker 1: Slow loop, which is like our whole strategic planning loop.

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Speaker 1: Then we've kind of got a more kind of operational

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Speaker 1: type loop that you could sort of go, Yeah.

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Speaker 2: We align, we collaborate, we learn, and we do that.

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Speaker 2: How we do that weekly? We do it monthly on

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Speaker 2: a variety of.

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Speaker 1: Way we communicate, the way we measure success that the

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Speaker 1: projects we work on and so on. And then when

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Speaker 1: there's a fire, we're spinning that align collaborate, learn loop, yeah,

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Speaker 1: and every moment. So the defense guys call it the

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Speaker 1: speed of relevance. So I think part of the broader

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Speaker 1: answer to that is what do you need in your

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Speaker 1: environment for alignments, for collaboration and for learning, and if

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Speaker 1: you unpack each of those alignments, not just we know

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Speaker 1: what the goal is. No, no, no, we need to

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Speaker 1: be committed exactly. I'm bringing your words back to you.

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Speaker 1: But you know, as you said, when you're tied together

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Speaker 1: with these other people, it's a we, not me. So

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Speaker 1: alignment's a commitment collaboration to me, is sharing, yeah are we.

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Speaker 1: Collaboration is sharing sharing resources, ideas, information and so on,

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Speaker 1: and then learning is your ability to adapt. So whenever

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Speaker 1: I'm working with a team, I always use that aligne Collaborate, learn,

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Speaker 1: And I'll often introduce it with a bit of a

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Speaker 1: story around one that we put in the book talking

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Speaker 1: for turbulence around a Quantus pilot Kevin Sullivan talking about

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Speaker 1: his experience of Quantus's one of their two major incidents,

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Speaker 1: when a flight from Singapore to Perth went into a

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Speaker 1: dive back in two.

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Speaker 2: Thousand and two thousand and nine.

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Speaker 1: I think, and you know, he sort of recounts the

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Speaker 1: pilot's metaphor, the pilot's mental model. Aviate, navigate, Communicate. Now, Aviate,

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Speaker 1: there's no rumway underneath. You keep the plane in the air. Navigate,

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Speaker 1: it's not staying up here forever. We're going to get

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Speaker 1: it down in landah. Communicate, You're going to need resort

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Speaker 1: and support when you get there. So to me, that's

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Speaker 1: the mental model. And I guess when I'm working with

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Speaker 1: people in these high demand environments, you try to give

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Speaker 1: them these simple mental models scaffolding.

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Speaker 2: If you like that they can then use. So when

438
00:21:12,400 --> 00:21:13,200
Speaker 2: I'm working with the team.

439
00:21:13,240 --> 00:21:17,120
Speaker 1: It's aligned, collaborate, learn, and then I think that final

440
00:21:17,200 --> 00:21:20,720
Speaker 1: question you asked about the complexity of the environment, it's

441
00:21:20,840 --> 00:21:23,800
Speaker 1: then the ability is so well, Okay, I think the

442
00:21:23,840 --> 00:21:25,800
Speaker 1: evidence shows us that the best way to get teams

443
00:21:25,840 --> 00:21:28,120
Speaker 1: to collaborate with each other is to have them confident

444
00:21:28,200 --> 00:21:30,679
Speaker 1: in their own identity and their own confidence and then

445
00:21:30,800 --> 00:21:33,200
Speaker 1: find a superordinent goal. So what you're trying to do

446
00:21:33,320 --> 00:21:35,280
Speaker 1: is find a way of getting them to align and

447
00:21:35,400 --> 00:21:38,879
Speaker 1: collaborate and learn. What's the reason behind that? So, but

448
00:21:39,240 --> 00:21:41,680
Speaker 1: my sense is always under pressure the last the last

449
00:21:41,680 --> 00:21:44,760
Speaker 1: thing you learn, first thing you forget. So I'm always

450
00:21:44,800 --> 00:21:47,199
Speaker 1: just hammering teams I'm working with. Are we align, are

451
00:21:47,240 --> 00:21:47,919
Speaker 1: we collaborating?

452
00:21:47,960 --> 00:21:49,399
Speaker 2: Are we learning? How do we know?

453
00:21:49,600 --> 00:21:50,840
Speaker 1: How are we going to get better at that? What

454
00:21:50,880 --> 00:21:53,280
Speaker 1: does collaborate mean if you're in a business context, solving

455
00:21:53,320 --> 00:21:56,920
Speaker 1: problems together, partnering more effectively, sharing resources?

456
00:21:56,960 --> 00:21:57,800
Speaker 2: What does learn mean?

457
00:21:58,440 --> 00:22:01,000
Speaker 1: Okay, well, we're learning about the task. What about the dynamics?

458
00:22:01,480 --> 00:22:04,840
Speaker 1: So I'd encourage your listeners just to think a line, collaborate, learn,

459
00:22:04,920 --> 00:22:07,879
Speaker 1: a line collaborate learn and how what's the cadence of that?

460
00:22:08,440 --> 00:22:11,280
Speaker 1: Which is really back to quality management demon plan to

461
00:22:11,480 --> 00:22:14,360
Speaker 1: check adapt or even not the basic scientific model, it's

462
00:22:14,400 --> 00:22:15,200
Speaker 1: a learning model.

463
00:22:15,440 --> 00:22:17,320
Speaker 2: That's what you make in an a deptive environment.

464
00:22:17,680 --> 00:22:19,960
Speaker 3: I want to pick up on You talked about Hackman

465
00:22:20,280 --> 00:22:24,760
Speaker 3: and these the idea about smission and social cohesion, and

466
00:22:24,840 --> 00:22:27,920
Speaker 3: when you said that, a conversation just popped into my head.

467
00:22:28,520 --> 00:22:30,639
Speaker 3: I interviewed a guy called Lee Ellis a number of

468
00:22:30,760 --> 00:22:32,960
Speaker 3: years ago who spent five and a half years in

469
00:22:33,000 --> 00:22:36,840
Speaker 3: the Hanoi Hilton prison camp in Vietnam. I don't know

470
00:22:36,880 --> 00:22:39,960
Speaker 3: if you're familiar with the story around that, but these

471
00:22:40,000 --> 00:22:43,159
Speaker 3: guys were in there and they were brutally tortured, and

472
00:22:43,280 --> 00:22:47,560
Speaker 3: they were in solitary confinement, and there the leader in

473
00:22:47,720 --> 00:22:52,639
Speaker 3: the in their Jim Stockdale. He actually spent seven and

474
00:22:52,640 --> 00:22:54,879
Speaker 3: a half years in that prison camp, four years in

475
00:22:54,960 --> 00:22:58,120
Speaker 3: solitary confinement and two years in leg irons. But Lee

476
00:22:58,280 --> 00:23:02,080
Speaker 3: said to me he was very, very big on a

477
00:23:02,240 --> 00:23:05,680
Speaker 3: twin focus of mission and people. And it was just

478
00:23:05,800 --> 00:23:08,600
Speaker 3: always mission and people mission and people mission and people

479
00:23:08,800 --> 00:23:13,080
Speaker 3: right being totally united behind the mission. But this whole

480
00:23:13,160 --> 00:23:17,639
Speaker 3: idea of that social cohesion. And Lee told me they

481
00:23:17,720 --> 00:23:20,720
Speaker 3: created this thing called the top code when they found

482
00:23:20,760 --> 00:23:22,440
Speaker 3: out that they were going to be put in solitary,

483
00:23:22,520 --> 00:23:24,720
Speaker 3: which was a way that they could top out the

484
00:23:24,800 --> 00:23:27,960
Speaker 3: letters of the alphabet and communicate with each other. And

485
00:23:28,200 --> 00:23:31,840
Speaker 3: Lee said, that was the glue that held these guys together,

486
00:23:32,000 --> 00:23:37,200
Speaker 3: that got them through those ridiculous amounts of torture, was

487
00:23:37,359 --> 00:23:41,880
Speaker 3: that that social connection, right, And it kind of strikes

488
00:23:41,960 --> 00:23:46,720
Speaker 3: me that it's it's actually a good sort of overview

489
00:23:46,800 --> 00:23:50,080
Speaker 3: for people in their own life, right, mission and social cohesion, Right,

490
00:23:50,160 --> 00:23:55,880
Speaker 3: what's your purpose? But people, social connection, social cohesian relationships,

491
00:23:55,920 --> 00:23:58,720
Speaker 3: those sorts of things, so we can really generalize that

492
00:23:58,800 --> 00:24:01,800
Speaker 3: high performance stuff not just from business and sport, but

493
00:24:01,960 --> 00:24:04,520
Speaker 3: to individuals and their own personal life as well. I think,

494
00:24:04,800 --> 00:24:07,040
Speaker 3: oh absolutely, yeah, I think yeah.

495
00:24:07,040 --> 00:24:08,439
Speaker 1: I mean one of the phrases I use a lot

496
00:24:08,480 --> 00:24:12,399
Speaker 1: of people first, task close behind, nice, Like what I

497
00:24:12,520 --> 00:24:13,320
Speaker 1: assume is that.

498
00:24:13,480 --> 00:24:14,720
Speaker 2: We know what the mission is.

499
00:24:15,040 --> 00:24:17,159
Speaker 1: But if we do, because then in some of the

500
00:24:17,200 --> 00:24:19,880
Speaker 1: people I work with in the corporate area, if they'll

501
00:24:19,920 --> 00:24:23,120
Speaker 1: tend to go task first, people second, or tasks people

502
00:24:23,160 --> 00:24:24,120
Speaker 1: when you've got time.

503
00:24:24,119 --> 00:24:28,480
Speaker 3: And probably more in certain industries, right well, ones that

504
00:24:28,560 --> 00:24:31,800
Speaker 3: are very competitive, like like banking and those sorts of

505
00:24:31,920 --> 00:24:34,960
Speaker 3: things very much task focused generally.

506
00:24:35,640 --> 00:24:38,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly, Yeah, it causes people that, But it's that

507
00:24:38,720 --> 00:24:40,520
Speaker 1: ability to get them to pause for a minute and go,

508
00:24:41,000 --> 00:24:43,240
Speaker 1: hang in a minute, think about the tone by which

509
00:24:43,280 --> 00:24:45,000
Speaker 1: you start the meeting, et cetera.

510
00:24:45,119 --> 00:24:46,440
Speaker 2: So exactly, I think.

511
00:24:46,720 --> 00:24:49,960
Speaker 1: But yeah, the Stockdale and the Stockdale paradox, that's sort

512
00:24:50,000 --> 00:24:52,720
Speaker 1: of yeah, that that sort of ability to well, that

513
00:24:52,840 --> 00:24:56,800
Speaker 1: was that was the stuff that became confront the brutal.

514
00:24:56,560 --> 00:25:01,399
Speaker 3: Facts, which right, yeahs is good, great y, Yeah, retain

515
00:25:01,440 --> 00:25:03,159
Speaker 3: the faith that you will prevail in the end and

516
00:25:03,960 --> 00:25:06,440
Speaker 3: time confront them brutal facts of your reality.

517
00:25:06,760 --> 00:25:08,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, suck it up for today.

518
00:25:08,240 --> 00:25:09,520
Speaker 3: That's what you're just going to have to deal with.

519
00:25:09,840 --> 00:25:14,360
Speaker 1: And yeah, it's that it's that pragmatic approach versus over

520
00:25:14,480 --> 00:25:16,760
Speaker 1: optimism or over overly pessimistic.

521
00:25:17,000 --> 00:25:20,760
Speaker 3: Yeah, she'll be right me. It does not fly in

522
00:25:20,920 --> 00:25:22,160
Speaker 3: times of difficulties.

523
00:25:23,200 --> 00:25:27,199
Speaker 2: No, No, it's narrow the focus.

524
00:25:27,320 --> 00:25:31,520
Speaker 3: But know why, let's move on. One of the reasons,

525
00:25:31,560 --> 00:25:33,920
Speaker 3: one of the big reasons I got the thing that

526
00:25:34,040 --> 00:25:39,520
Speaker 3: caught my eye was you talking about psychological safety in

527
00:25:39,600 --> 00:25:41,720
Speaker 3: a very similar way that I've been thinking about it.

528
00:25:41,840 --> 00:25:46,239
Speaker 3: So you have rather preocatively suggested that that even though

529
00:25:46,280 --> 00:25:48,520
Speaker 3: psychological safety is essential, and I think we would all

530
00:25:48,600 --> 00:25:52,800
Speaker 3: agree that it is too often now becoming an excuse

531
00:25:52,880 --> 00:25:56,000
Speaker 3: for mediocracy. And I would add on to that people

532
00:25:56,040 --> 00:25:59,600
Speaker 3: are using it as an excuse not to be held to.

533
00:26:01,080 --> 00:26:01,240
Speaker 1: Right.

534
00:26:01,440 --> 00:26:04,639
Speaker 3: So what do you mean by it's being becoming an

535
00:26:04,680 --> 00:26:06,000
Speaker 3: excuse for mediocracy?

536
00:26:06,720 --> 00:26:10,080
Speaker 1: Look, I guess it probably starts with the unfortunate naming.

537
00:26:10,200 --> 00:26:14,159
Speaker 1: The psychological safety is badly named, and I don't blame

538
00:26:14,560 --> 00:26:17,280
Speaker 1: don't blame Amy Edmonds, I know anyone for that. But

539
00:26:17,600 --> 00:26:20,040
Speaker 1: what we've got at the moment is this confusion between

540
00:26:20,160 --> 00:26:24,000
Speaker 1: psycho social safety, which is the environment in which you

541
00:26:24,760 --> 00:26:26,320
Speaker 1: feel you're not going to be bullied, you're going.

542
00:26:26,280 --> 00:26:28,080
Speaker 2: To be harassed, etcetera.

543
00:26:29,320 --> 00:26:33,920
Speaker 1: But the research the experience around psychological safety it's done

544
00:26:34,000 --> 00:26:36,479
Speaker 1: in a team environment. So I think that's the first thing.

545
00:26:36,600 --> 00:26:40,159
Speaker 1: It's about teamwork. And the second thing is the research

546
00:26:40,200 --> 00:26:43,399
Speaker 1: again on psych safety very clearly defines it as that

547
00:26:43,560 --> 00:26:46,240
Speaker 1: ability in a sense to be yourself and to be

548
00:26:46,280 --> 00:26:50,159
Speaker 1: able to express yourself. And I talk to you first responders,

549
00:26:50,200 --> 00:26:52,959
Speaker 1: for example, and say, well, you couldn't have psych safety

550
00:26:53,000 --> 00:26:55,239
Speaker 1: if you're in a fire environment. They'll turn around and say,

551
00:26:55,280 --> 00:26:58,439
Speaker 1: are you kidding? That's exactly what you need. And then

552
00:26:58,600 --> 00:27:01,280
Speaker 1: when you unpack that you see that for them, psychological

553
00:27:01,359 --> 00:27:04,800
Speaker 1: safety is anybody can call out at any moment, any

554
00:27:04,920 --> 00:27:08,000
Speaker 1: level of risk or concern or whatever, because you can

555
00:27:08,080 --> 00:27:09,840
Speaker 1: speak up because you know that you've got to be

556
00:27:09,920 --> 00:27:12,240
Speaker 1: at your best to create the environment for yourself and

557
00:27:12,280 --> 00:27:14,760
Speaker 1: your maids. But on the other hand, the bit that's

558
00:27:14,800 --> 00:27:17,880
Speaker 1: missing is collective accountability. So to me, they are two

559
00:27:17,960 --> 00:27:20,159
Speaker 1: circles that fit together. So when I look at your

560
00:27:20,280 --> 00:27:22,680
Speaker 1: high performance or which about where where does one team

561
00:27:22,760 --> 00:27:26,280
Speaker 1: fit in an organization? It's at the intersection of psychological

562
00:27:26,400 --> 00:27:31,360
Speaker 1: safety that the proper definition and collective accountability. That's where

563
00:27:31,400 --> 00:27:33,359
Speaker 1: you get higher performance because you don't I mean, you

564
00:27:33,400 --> 00:27:35,760
Speaker 1: only need to look at the neuroscience around learning. You

565
00:27:35,880 --> 00:27:38,639
Speaker 1: do not learn in a safe environment. You learn in

566
00:27:38,680 --> 00:27:42,560
Speaker 1: a kind of roller coaster process. So yep, I feel like, yeah,

567
00:27:42,720 --> 00:27:44,520
Speaker 1: pulls create an environment where I feel like I can

568
00:27:44,600 --> 00:27:46,600
Speaker 1: have a goal, I can test myself, I can push

569
00:27:46,680 --> 00:27:49,920
Speaker 1: myself for the limits, and I want to do that

570
00:27:50,040 --> 00:27:52,080
Speaker 1: because I reckon, we can do something really special here.

571
00:27:52,440 --> 00:27:54,480
Speaker 2: So it's that ability to put those two together. And

572
00:27:54,520 --> 00:27:57,440
Speaker 2: my consumer of the mediocrity is that and I've seen it.

573
00:27:57,640 --> 00:28:00,040
Speaker 1: I reckon probably my first I don't know if The

574
00:28:00,080 --> 00:28:02,760
Speaker 1: first four or five conversations with chief executives at the

575
00:28:02,800 --> 00:28:05,080
Speaker 1: start of this year were what the hell do we

576
00:28:05,160 --> 00:28:08,080
Speaker 1: do with this thing called psychological safety? My ops managers,

577
00:28:08,359 --> 00:28:11,159
Speaker 1: my operations leaders are scared witless to have a conversation.

578
00:28:11,680 --> 00:28:15,400
Speaker 1: MYR people want to run run training courses on site safety.

579
00:28:15,800 --> 00:28:17,360
Speaker 1: I don't disagree that we want to look out through

580
00:28:17,359 --> 00:28:20,600
Speaker 1: our people, but we've got stuff to deliver here and I.

581
00:28:20,600 --> 00:28:21,399
Speaker 2: Don't know how to do it.

582
00:28:21,960 --> 00:28:24,440
Speaker 1: So what we've been doing very strongly for the last

583
00:28:24,480 --> 00:28:27,560
Speaker 1: sort of six nine months is getting groups together and

584
00:28:27,800 --> 00:28:29,720
Speaker 1: very simply just saying, if you're in an environment with

585
00:28:29,840 --> 00:28:33,119
Speaker 1: you you feel confident and fearless and bold, tell me

586
00:28:33,160 --> 00:28:36,600
Speaker 1: about that environment. And then we say, now, tell me

587
00:28:36,640 --> 00:28:39,280
Speaker 1: about the environment if you feel like you're empowered and

588
00:28:39,360 --> 00:28:42,800
Speaker 1: you're accountable to do really good things. Now let's put

589
00:28:42,840 --> 00:28:43,600
Speaker 1: those two together.

590
00:28:44,080 --> 00:28:46,680
Speaker 2: What is that environment? Because that's the environment.

591
00:28:46,760 --> 00:28:49,920
Speaker 1: So my concern is that it's for a whole host

592
00:28:50,000 --> 00:28:52,560
Speaker 1: of reasons, some being that sense of I don't want

593
00:28:52,600 --> 00:28:55,080
Speaker 1: to speak up about it, and others kind of comfortable

594
00:28:55,360 --> 00:28:58,719
Speaker 1: that they're sitting behind the mediocre. Now, I found ninety

595
00:28:58,840 --> 00:29:02,040
Speaker 1: nine point nine percent of sponsors I've had to articles

596
00:29:02,080 --> 00:29:03,880
Speaker 1: and a variety of other things have been people say,

597
00:29:04,160 --> 00:29:07,320
Speaker 1: thank goodness for actually defining what this thing is rather

598
00:29:07,440 --> 00:29:10,360
Speaker 1: than what people have sort of wanted it to become.

599
00:29:10,680 --> 00:29:14,320
Speaker 3: Yes, And I think there are a small I mean,

600
00:29:14,400 --> 00:29:17,200
Speaker 3: we know that in any business, in any team, there

601
00:29:17,320 --> 00:29:21,400
Speaker 3: is a small amount of malingerers right who will grab

602
00:29:21,520 --> 00:29:24,760
Speaker 3: onto anything to protect them from being held to account.

603
00:29:25,280 --> 00:29:28,080
Speaker 3: And I think psychological safety is their new beacon that

604
00:29:28,160 --> 00:29:28,720
Speaker 3: they reach for.

605
00:29:29,240 --> 00:29:30,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I think if I add to that, it's

606
00:29:30,880 --> 00:29:34,600
Speaker 1: also a sense of we can't make our employees uncomfortable.

607
00:29:35,480 --> 00:29:40,840
Speaker 2: They will I continue to. But the challenge for you

608
00:29:40,880 --> 00:29:43,720
Speaker 2: as a leader is people will happily.

609
00:29:43,440 --> 00:29:47,800
Speaker 1: Go into uncertain, uncomfortable, challenging environments if they feel they

610
00:29:47,840 --> 00:29:50,680
Speaker 1: have a choice and that they feel that they have

611
00:29:50,880 --> 00:29:54,240
Speaker 1: a level of safety net or support. That's your role

612
00:29:54,280 --> 00:29:56,440
Speaker 1: as a leader, not to protect them and keep them

613
00:29:56,440 --> 00:29:59,600
Speaker 1: out of it. That's the worst that that's over parenting.

614
00:30:00,720 --> 00:30:03,640
Speaker 1: I mean, I watched my little grandson going, Okay, I

615
00:30:03,840 --> 00:30:06,640
Speaker 1: really don't want him to bust too many bones, so

616
00:30:06,760 --> 00:30:09,239
Speaker 1: I'm there sort of catching him.

617
00:30:09,800 --> 00:30:10,760
Speaker 2: But he's got to fall a.

618
00:30:10,760 --> 00:30:14,160
Speaker 3: Bit, got to climb a bloody tree rightly.

619
00:30:15,200 --> 00:30:16,520
Speaker 2: And the bit of is he does that.

620
00:30:16,720 --> 00:30:19,160
Speaker 1: And then I watched my little granddaughter and she's going

621
00:30:19,240 --> 00:30:21,560
Speaker 1: up even faster, and you, okay, I do need to

622
00:30:21,600 --> 00:30:22,960
Speaker 1: put a little safety net around that.

623
00:30:23,160 --> 00:30:27,360
Speaker 2: That's that's me. It's that wonderful opportunity. Oh say, the leaders,

624
00:30:27,360 --> 00:30:28,240
Speaker 2: you got two roles.

625
00:30:28,280 --> 00:30:31,400
Speaker 1: You've got to unlock potential and you've got to unblock

626
00:30:32,120 --> 00:30:35,120
Speaker 1: And if you put in these fake views of what

627
00:30:35,360 --> 00:30:39,480
Speaker 1: safety is, you're just putting in blockages. You're blocking people's potential.

628
00:30:39,600 --> 00:30:42,640
Speaker 1: You're not doing them any favors. Exactly the same as

629
00:30:42,720 --> 00:30:45,320
Speaker 1: with kids. You want to build their level of resilience.

630
00:30:45,440 --> 00:30:47,520
Speaker 1: You don't learn resilience in a course.

631
00:30:50,000 --> 00:30:51,680
Speaker 2: You just dime your comment.

632
00:30:51,760 --> 00:30:53,240
Speaker 1: I've heard you say it a number of times in

633
00:30:53,280 --> 00:30:56,520
Speaker 1: your podcast. There is massive mental training in the gym.

634
00:30:56,640 --> 00:30:59,600
Speaker 1: Of course, the reds yea, what you're training for you've

635
00:30:59,600 --> 00:31:02,480
Speaker 1: building said a goo, hold the tench hold your shape

636
00:31:02,480 --> 00:31:03,440
Speaker 1: when you're under proachure.

637
00:31:03,960 --> 00:31:05,960
Speaker 2: I mean, because that's what you want to do, isn't it.

638
00:31:06,000 --> 00:31:10,000
Speaker 1: You want to hold your shape physically emotionally, because that's

639
00:31:10,040 --> 00:31:11,320
Speaker 1: what we need people to be able to do.

640
00:31:11,440 --> 00:31:15,480
Speaker 3: And yeah, yeah, yeah, no, I love every he said

641
00:31:15,480 --> 00:31:17,320
Speaker 3: about it, and I actually made me reflect back on

642
00:31:17,400 --> 00:31:19,560
Speaker 3: my time when I was in the military, and particularly

643
00:31:19,560 --> 00:31:22,360
Speaker 3: when I did helicopter search and rescue in the Mountains

644
00:31:22,360 --> 00:31:26,400
Speaker 3: Sinadas of Scotland, which is friggin dangerous game, right, we

645
00:31:26,640 --> 00:31:31,000
Speaker 3: had something called the tabs offering were anything to do

646
00:31:31,200 --> 00:31:35,360
Speaker 3: with safety. Even an er crewman who was a leading

647
00:31:35,480 --> 00:31:40,000
Speaker 3: hand could call out the most senior officer about anything

648
00:31:40,120 --> 00:31:42,960
Speaker 3: to do with safety, right, So that to me was

649
00:31:43,000 --> 00:31:45,800
Speaker 3: psychological safety. But it didn't mean that you couldn't be

650
00:31:45,960 --> 00:31:49,200
Speaker 3: held to account, and it didn't mean that you couldn't

651
00:31:49,240 --> 00:31:52,240
Speaker 3: take orders and things like that, right. I think I

652
00:31:52,320 --> 00:31:56,560
Speaker 3: think it's being very diluted, as is many of the

653
00:31:56,640 --> 00:32:00,080
Speaker 3: things today, Like the word trauma has been massively a

654
00:32:00,160 --> 00:32:03,480
Speaker 3: louted to the point where I'm hearing teenagers talking about

655
00:32:03,520 --> 00:32:06,760
Speaker 3: their trauma of a breakup. It's like when you look

656
00:32:06,760 --> 00:32:09,120
Speaker 3: at d SM definition of REGI amount of drama. It's

657
00:32:09,160 --> 00:32:11,960
Speaker 3: about fear of your life or someone very close to you.

658
00:32:12,160 --> 00:32:16,280
Speaker 3: But NA, that's being diluted, and this whole safety thing

659
00:32:16,720 --> 00:32:20,920
Speaker 3: is being diluted massively. And I think to your point,

660
00:32:21,200 --> 00:32:26,120
Speaker 3: we are coddling. We are molly cuddling individuals left, right

661
00:32:26,120 --> 00:32:29,600
Speaker 3: and center and within organizations, and it's becoming really hard

662
00:32:29,680 --> 00:32:30,640
Speaker 3: to get shit done.

663
00:32:30,960 --> 00:32:33,440
Speaker 2: You are echoing what I'm hearing constantly.

664
00:32:33,720 --> 00:32:37,840
Speaker 1: You know, I've never heard chief executives and senior leaders

665
00:32:38,240 --> 00:32:41,880
Speaker 1: be more pessimistic about the environment in which they're trying

666
00:32:41,920 --> 00:32:44,320
Speaker 1: to operate at the moment. They just feel that from

667
00:32:44,360 --> 00:32:47,320
Speaker 1: a governance perspective. Now since the Banking Royal Commission, there's

668
00:32:47,440 --> 00:32:50,240
Speaker 1: just so much governance pressure that you've got all of

669
00:32:50,320 --> 00:32:53,120
Speaker 1: that social pressure as well, and even makes you point.

670
00:32:53,120 --> 00:32:55,320
Speaker 1: A moment ago, I got to ask that I was

671
00:32:55,360 --> 00:32:58,160
Speaker 1: just speaking at a lunch recently and somebody's said to me,

672
00:32:58,240 --> 00:33:01,320
Speaker 1: my beause my daughter is missed out on this and

673
00:33:01,360 --> 00:33:04,640
Speaker 1: they're feeling really depressed or something and whatever, And I

674
00:33:04,760 --> 00:33:06,400
Speaker 1: sort of stopped them from a moment and said, look,

675
00:33:06,680 --> 00:33:09,000
Speaker 1: I've done some clinical site work over the years, and

676
00:33:09,000 --> 00:33:12,640
Speaker 1: I've seen sad, and I've seen depressed, And when I

677
00:33:12,680 --> 00:33:15,160
Speaker 1: see depressed, I desperately want to give the child my

678
00:33:15,280 --> 00:33:20,320
Speaker 1: mobile phone number because I'm genuinely scared and worried about them.

679
00:33:21,120 --> 00:33:23,480
Speaker 1: When I see sad, I just want to make sure

680
00:33:23,520 --> 00:33:26,000
Speaker 1: that they keep the lines of communication open. But they

681
00:33:26,040 --> 00:33:28,080
Speaker 1: need to learn to deal with sad, and we're not

682
00:33:28,320 --> 00:33:30,960
Speaker 1: allowing people to do that. There's a range of human

683
00:33:31,000 --> 00:33:34,680
Speaker 1: emotions for a reason, and we're overcoddling exactly.

684
00:33:34,920 --> 00:33:39,640
Speaker 3: I think we are pathologizing feelings is kind of high.

685
00:33:39,640 --> 00:33:41,440
Speaker 3: I would set that up. You know, what used to

686
00:33:41,480 --> 00:33:44,440
Speaker 3: be called nervous is no anxiety, and what used to

687
00:33:44,480 --> 00:33:47,520
Speaker 3: be called sad is no depression. Anyway, don't get me

688
00:33:47,560 --> 00:33:51,600
Speaker 3: started on that one. But let's return to the sakes.

689
00:33:51,640 --> 00:33:55,080
Speaker 3: If so, I give some people some tips a bit

690
00:33:55,440 --> 00:33:58,000
Speaker 3: because there'll be lots of corporates listening to this podcast,

691
00:33:58,200 --> 00:34:00,680
Speaker 3: you know, from people who I've worked with for how

692
00:34:00,760 --> 00:34:04,160
Speaker 3: do you create a culture where people do fansy if

693
00:34:04,280 --> 00:34:08,200
Speaker 3: to speak up, but still they're hell to account Yeah.

694
00:34:08,640 --> 00:34:11,800
Speaker 2: Look, I start with conversations. Well, it's the leader's got

695
00:34:11,800 --> 00:34:12,520
Speaker 2: a lot of model it.

696
00:34:12,640 --> 00:34:16,360
Speaker 1: But we have this simple three point chip process that

697
00:34:16,520 --> 00:34:18,719
Speaker 1: we start to try and in bed with any leadership group,

698
00:34:18,760 --> 00:34:20,960
Speaker 1: and we start on the psych safety accountability bit.

699
00:34:21,320 --> 00:34:22,879
Speaker 2: We say, here's your three things.

700
00:34:23,000 --> 00:34:26,840
Speaker 1: Number one set the tone, so set the tone in

701
00:34:26,920 --> 00:34:29,640
Speaker 1: your email, set the tone in your meetings, Set the

702
00:34:29,760 --> 00:34:32,360
Speaker 1: tone in any sort of exchange one on one, a

703
00:34:32,440 --> 00:34:36,040
Speaker 1: debrief or whatever. And that tone is a mix of people. Well,

704
00:34:36,080 --> 00:34:36,960
Speaker 1: to me, it's people.

705
00:34:36,840 --> 00:34:39,920
Speaker 2: First, task close behind. So we're here for a reason.

706
00:34:40,719 --> 00:34:42,680
Speaker 2: Second habit is invite participation.

707
00:34:43,000 --> 00:34:46,880
Speaker 1: Make sure everybody's in, make sure they're participating, you're getting

708
00:34:46,960 --> 00:34:49,680
Speaker 1: views from them, not just run by the extroverts. And

709
00:34:49,760 --> 00:34:53,439
Speaker 1: then the third one is facilitate constructively. So take people

710
00:34:53,520 --> 00:34:57,800
Speaker 1: towards a solution or take them towards a goal, and that's.

711
00:34:57,920 --> 00:35:01,160
Speaker 2: Bringing both of those together. Always start with that.

712
00:35:01,800 --> 00:35:03,640
Speaker 1: We take a you know, I've got a crew by

713
00:35:03,719 --> 00:35:06,040
Speaker 1: starting with a group and a police group next week,

714
00:35:06,120 --> 00:35:08,040
Speaker 1: and that's exactly what we'll be asking them to do.

715
00:35:08,560 --> 00:35:09,800
Speaker 1: And we'll catch up with them maybe a couple of

716
00:35:09,800 --> 00:35:12,000
Speaker 1: weeks and we'll debrief it, but it'll be what's the

717
00:35:12,160 --> 00:35:14,440
Speaker 1: tone we want to set, how do we do that?

718
00:35:14,760 --> 00:35:17,320
Speaker 1: And then be getting some feedback. So then the second

719
00:35:17,400 --> 00:35:19,759
Speaker 1: thing I think leaders can do is and it's hard

720
00:35:19,800 --> 00:35:23,680
Speaker 1: for leaders to get feedback, but it's asking insights. It's saying, yeah, Paul,

721
00:35:23,960 --> 00:35:25,759
Speaker 1: I reckon, I've done okay, but what's one thing you

722
00:35:25,840 --> 00:35:28,000
Speaker 1: reckon if it would be even better? If what would

723
00:35:28,040 --> 00:35:31,000
Speaker 1: make this an even more open experience for us? So

724
00:35:31,080 --> 00:35:34,000
Speaker 1: what would make this more impactful for your listeners? So

725
00:35:34,120 --> 00:35:38,120
Speaker 1: it's getting everybody to go, oh wow, my leader's open.

726
00:35:38,239 --> 00:35:40,879
Speaker 1: So there's a vulnerability. There there's an openness to learn

727
00:35:41,280 --> 00:35:43,879
Speaker 1: that's mean. And then the third one is debriefing. As

728
00:35:43,920 --> 00:35:46,080
Speaker 1: a sort of senior SAS person said to me that

729
00:35:46,280 --> 00:35:49,560
Speaker 1: it's always stuck in my head relentless and intensitive debriefing. Now,

730
00:35:49,640 --> 00:35:54,400
Speaker 1: maybe it's not always relentless and intensive debriefing, but if

731
00:35:54,440 --> 00:35:57,440
Speaker 1: you want accountability, you've got a pause. And maybe it's

732
00:35:57,480 --> 00:35:59,239
Speaker 1: a really good point to make, is we sort of

733
00:35:59,280 --> 00:36:01,520
Speaker 1: head towards sort of closure that when we did that

734
00:36:01,640 --> 00:36:04,440
Speaker 1: research around the line, collaborate, learn the one thing that

735
00:36:04,680 --> 00:36:06,719
Speaker 1: hit me and the and it really sort of hit

736
00:36:06,760 --> 00:36:08,160
Speaker 1: me in the face, but it took a while for

737
00:36:08,239 --> 00:36:12,959
Speaker 1: us to see it was special military, emergency, medicine, sport, etc.

738
00:36:13,680 --> 00:36:16,719
Speaker 1: All of those environments have a natural pause. They have

739
00:36:16,760 --> 00:36:21,239
Speaker 1: a pause between mission, between incident, between startup event, finish event,

740
00:36:21,320 --> 00:36:24,799
Speaker 1: halftimes and whatever. They have a natural inbuilt point where

741
00:36:24,840 --> 00:36:27,880
Speaker 1: they can learn, so they align, game plan, collaborate, get

742
00:36:27,920 --> 00:36:29,800
Speaker 1: out and play, learn what's.

743
00:36:29,680 --> 00:36:31,480
Speaker 2: Worked, what hasn't worked, how do we move forward?

744
00:36:31,920 --> 00:36:34,880
Speaker 1: There is no natural pauses unless you're running a project

745
00:36:34,960 --> 00:36:38,000
Speaker 1: or an agile process where you've got good retrospective. So

746
00:36:38,320 --> 00:36:40,200
Speaker 1: I think the other thing is to build the cadence,

747
00:36:40,520 --> 00:36:44,200
Speaker 1: so I'd really hone on that. So three things focus

748
00:36:44,239 --> 00:36:48,080
Speaker 1: on the conversations, setting the tone of apticipation, facilitate constructively,

749
00:36:48,480 --> 00:36:51,359
Speaker 1: and then take that into being the person that people

750
00:36:51,480 --> 00:36:54,000
Speaker 1: see wanting to learn and being vulnerable and open to learn.

751
00:36:54,560 --> 00:36:56,960
Speaker 2: And then that third pace in the DeBras.

752
00:36:57,000 --> 00:36:59,800
Speaker 3: I absolutely love that. There's a few things because I

753
00:37:00,040 --> 00:37:02,520
Speaker 3: I run some high performance team sessions as well, and

754
00:37:02,680 --> 00:37:05,520
Speaker 3: you know, taking some stuff from the military. Our member

755
00:37:05,600 --> 00:37:11,040
Speaker 3: always being told you can never over communicate clarity, right, Yeah,

756
00:37:11,560 --> 00:37:14,600
Speaker 3: that one there, and then the invite participation I often

757
00:37:14,640 --> 00:37:18,239
Speaker 3: talk to teams about in meetings, just start off with

758
00:37:18,400 --> 00:37:21,560
Speaker 3: using a talking stick where you put the agenda on

759
00:37:21,600 --> 00:37:24,280
Speaker 3: the table and the talking stick goes around the table

760
00:37:24,400 --> 00:37:28,120
Speaker 3: because you said exactly the same thing. Meetings are often

761
00:37:28,200 --> 00:37:34,120
Speaker 3: dominated by extroverts, right, people like me who actually think

762
00:37:34,320 --> 00:37:38,359
Speaker 3: while they're talking, right, And us extroverts talk a lot

763
00:37:38,440 --> 00:37:42,160
Speaker 3: of horseshit sometimes, right, because we're formulating our thoughts while.

764
00:37:42,320 --> 00:37:43,000
Speaker 2: We don't believe it.

765
00:37:43,080 --> 00:37:46,680
Speaker 3: We just yeah, that's right. And the introverts take a

766
00:37:46,880 --> 00:37:49,000
Speaker 3: bit more time and I'm you know, I'm kind of

767
00:37:49,040 --> 00:37:52,000
Speaker 3: generalizing it, but takes more time to formulate their thoughts.

768
00:37:52,520 --> 00:37:55,520
Speaker 3: And they often get shut down a minute or don't

769
00:37:55,560 --> 00:37:59,000
Speaker 3: get a chance to participate. And that's why I love

770
00:37:59,080 --> 00:38:02,120
Speaker 3: that talking stick, and particularly if you get an agenda item,

771
00:38:02,480 --> 00:38:05,120
Speaker 3: a quick round the table right give a comment. You

772
00:38:05,160 --> 00:38:06,920
Speaker 3: could say no comment on this and pass it on.

773
00:38:07,360 --> 00:38:09,719
Speaker 3: But what happens then is you get a whole heap

774
00:38:09,800 --> 00:38:14,759
Speaker 3: of different opinions before you start debate, rather than the

775
00:38:14,960 --> 00:38:18,960
Speaker 3: dominant people just taking over. I think that's key, and

776
00:38:19,320 --> 00:38:23,000
Speaker 3: then I think comment on your last one. Around debriefing,

777
00:38:23,600 --> 00:38:27,120
Speaker 3: I never flew a single sortie where I didn't have

778
00:38:27,160 --> 00:38:31,040
Speaker 3: a debrief afterwards, and I think it's something that is

779
00:38:31,400 --> 00:38:36,040
Speaker 3: massively missing in business is around debriefing, and particularly the

780
00:38:36,120 --> 00:38:38,400
Speaker 3: other thing I think from my time in the aircrew

781
00:38:38,520 --> 00:38:42,840
Speaker 3: world is about learning from others' mistakes. So as an

782
00:38:42,880 --> 00:38:47,720
Speaker 3: aircraft captain, I could not sign out that aircraft until

783
00:38:47,840 --> 00:38:51,960
Speaker 3: I had read and signed all aircraft incidents that had

784
00:38:52,000 --> 00:38:55,479
Speaker 3: happened right, And the whole idea was er crew didn't

785
00:38:55,520 --> 00:38:57,560
Speaker 3: live very long at the start of it. I remember

786
00:38:57,640 --> 00:39:01,000
Speaker 3: nine henle an Oh krusty instructor, telling us when he

787
00:39:01,320 --> 00:39:05,680
Speaker 3: first graduated, he sealed They sealed an aircraft carrier from

788
00:39:05,719 --> 00:39:08,480
Speaker 3: Singapore all the way to the to the far east

789
00:39:08,520 --> 00:39:10,799
Speaker 3: tailand or somewhere like that. He said, by the time

790
00:39:10,880 --> 00:39:14,640
Speaker 3: they got there, half of all the air crew were dead, right,

791
00:39:14,880 --> 00:39:19,920
Speaker 3: because flying helicopters off ships very dangerous business, particularly back

792
00:39:20,000 --> 00:39:23,720
Speaker 3: in those days. So that's when that culture started about

793
00:39:23,880 --> 00:39:27,520
Speaker 3: learning from other people's mistakes. And I find in you

794
00:39:27,640 --> 00:39:29,719
Speaker 3: have seen this, you know you've been at conference before.

795
00:39:29,760 --> 00:39:32,399
Speaker 3: I'm sure where people stand up there and they talk

796
00:39:32,440 --> 00:39:36,279
Speaker 3: about best practice, right, and here was a really great

797
00:39:36,320 --> 00:39:39,480
Speaker 3: example of things going really well. Rah rah rah. I'm like,

798
00:39:39,800 --> 00:39:42,640
Speaker 3: who's talking about the fuck ups? Who's getting up there

799
00:39:42,719 --> 00:39:45,960
Speaker 3: and saying here's where this went massively wrong. Here's the

800
00:39:46,200 --> 00:39:49,799
Speaker 3: learning lessons from all of this for everybody to sure.

801
00:39:50,400 --> 00:39:53,879
Speaker 3: So yeah, man, I'm completely aligned with everything you said.

802
00:39:53,920 --> 00:39:57,719
Speaker 3: There one question that senior SAS guy first name wasn't

803
00:39:57,760 --> 00:39:58,920
Speaker 3: Harry or Rage? Was it?

804
00:39:59,239 --> 00:39:59,399
Speaker 1: Oh?

805
00:39:59,640 --> 00:40:00,799
Speaker 2: It's gon about twenty years ago?

806
00:40:00,800 --> 00:40:04,160
Speaker 3: But no, I don't know. Okay, I know a couple

807
00:40:04,200 --> 00:40:08,000
Speaker 3: of guys a me and mine, REDG. Crawford and Harry Moffett.

808
00:40:07,960 --> 00:40:09,279
Speaker 2: Who No, No, I wasn't.

809
00:40:09,880 --> 00:40:10,600
Speaker 3: It's not Harry.

810
00:40:10,640 --> 00:40:11,839
Speaker 2: Quite well, some of are.

811
00:40:11,960 --> 00:40:14,680
Speaker 3: Our circles had crossed. No, we are running a little

812
00:40:14,680 --> 00:40:16,279
Speaker 3: bit out of time. But I do want to talk

813
00:40:16,280 --> 00:40:19,960
Speaker 3: about performance under pressure, right, because you've had a wealth

814
00:40:20,000 --> 00:40:25,320
Speaker 3: of experience working with both individuals and teams in that

815
00:40:25,760 --> 00:40:28,760
Speaker 3: high performance stuff, both in elite sport and in business.

816
00:40:29,320 --> 00:40:35,440
Speaker 3: So give us a few tips about that sustainable peak performance, right,

817
00:40:35,560 --> 00:40:38,000
Speaker 3: because everybody can be a peak performer for a while,

818
00:40:38,520 --> 00:40:41,719
Speaker 3: but you and me will have seen plenty of them burnout. Right,

819
00:40:42,400 --> 00:40:47,000
Speaker 3: What can some people do to maintain that performance, sustainable

820
00:40:47,040 --> 00:40:50,839
Speaker 3: peak performance with actually burning out? I think, and if

821
00:40:50,880 --> 00:40:52,800
Speaker 3: you can solve this, you'll be a multi millionaire.

822
00:40:53,200 --> 00:40:55,319
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, I'll probably take the word peak out,

823
00:40:55,520 --> 00:40:57,280
Speaker 1: so I think it's sustainable performance.

824
00:40:57,320 --> 00:41:00,279
Speaker 2: And then at certain points, yeah, you need to peak

825
00:41:00,320 --> 00:41:04,080
Speaker 2: for an event, yeah, coaching or whatever. The framework I.

826
00:41:04,200 --> 00:41:05,879
Speaker 1: Used I came up with I don't know about twelve

827
00:41:05,960 --> 00:41:08,759
Speaker 1: fourteen years ago now, and we went and we looked.

828
00:41:08,760 --> 00:41:10,480
Speaker 1: We went to look back on some of the research

829
00:41:10,600 --> 00:41:13,880
Speaker 1: on burnout, and we were when we engaged by a

830
00:41:13,960 --> 00:41:16,200
Speaker 1: ruthsby large organization. They had quite a good culture, but

831
00:41:16,320 --> 00:41:19,720
Speaker 1: their issue was their performance management system. They said, it sucks,

832
00:41:20,000 --> 00:41:22,040
Speaker 1: you know, it's just ridiculous. It's just a tick a

833
00:41:22,080 --> 00:41:24,719
Speaker 1: box exercise. And they said, we really want to we

834
00:41:24,800 --> 00:41:27,200
Speaker 1: want to turn our before like we just talked about

835
00:41:27,200 --> 00:41:29,680
Speaker 1: a moment ago, we want to turn our performance cycle

836
00:41:29,760 --> 00:41:33,040
Speaker 1: into something where people genuinely learn and grow and.

837
00:41:33,320 --> 00:41:35,640
Speaker 2: We get better. Can you see what you can do

838
00:41:35,760 --> 00:41:36,360
Speaker 2: something about it?

839
00:41:36,480 --> 00:41:38,040
Speaker 1: So we just went back to square one and said,

840
00:41:38,040 --> 00:41:40,120
Speaker 1: all right, well, if you're trying to design a performance system,

841
00:41:40,200 --> 00:41:43,400
Speaker 1: what is your definition of performance? And we settled on

842
00:41:43,640 --> 00:41:46,600
Speaker 1: four elements that have stuck for the last twelve years

843
00:41:46,640 --> 00:41:49,040
Speaker 1: and we've em bettered this in I don't know, got

844
00:41:49,120 --> 00:41:51,040
Speaker 1: half a dozen of Australia as universities and some of

845
00:41:51,080 --> 00:41:53,680
Speaker 1: the banks and a variety of other places. The acronym

846
00:41:53,800 --> 00:41:57,600
Speaker 1: is ADEPP achieved and it's achieved developing, enjoy partner. So

847
00:41:57,640 --> 00:41:59,680
Speaker 1: you stop and reflect for a moment on betting. The

848
00:41:59,719 --> 00:42:02,400
Speaker 1: best parts of your career, Paul, are times where you

849
00:42:02,480 --> 00:42:07,600
Speaker 1: were achieving meaningful outcomes, you were developing and growing, you

850
00:42:07,719 --> 00:42:10,719
Speaker 1: were enjoying, so there was lots of energy in and

851
00:42:11,360 --> 00:42:14,359
Speaker 1: you had strong partnering and collegiate relationships with each other.

852
00:42:15,480 --> 00:42:18,799
Speaker 1: High performance environment. So to me, that's your starting points.

853
00:42:18,880 --> 00:42:21,239
Speaker 1: So pretty much every there's not too many people that

854
00:42:21,440 --> 00:42:23,880
Speaker 1: escape me if I'm working with them, coaching them and

855
00:42:23,960 --> 00:42:26,400
Speaker 1: so on. We just use that aid a framework. We

856
00:42:26,520 --> 00:42:29,800
Speaker 1: set it up in ninety day cadence, and it's what

857
00:42:30,320 --> 00:42:32,640
Speaker 1: does achievement look like for you in this next ninety days?

858
00:42:32,719 --> 00:42:35,840
Speaker 1: What does development look like? What does enjoyment and energy

859
00:42:35,920 --> 00:42:38,480
Speaker 1: look like? Tend to use energy more with more senior

860
00:42:38,520 --> 00:42:41,320
Speaker 1: people because they'll kind of get the energy and energy

861
00:42:41,360 --> 00:42:44,239
Speaker 1: out and then partner in critical partner and relationships.

862
00:42:44,440 --> 00:42:45,440
Speaker 2: Then it's we debrief it.

863
00:42:45,480 --> 00:42:47,160
Speaker 1: We'll do a check in every thirty days, how are

864
00:42:47,160 --> 00:42:50,360
Speaker 1: you going? And we do a proper debrief and a reset,

865
00:42:50,800 --> 00:42:52,440
Speaker 1: and it's a good one that you can then go.

866
00:42:52,840 --> 00:42:54,880
Speaker 1: I don't expect in any ninety days that you're going

867
00:42:54,920 --> 00:42:57,640
Speaker 1: to have each one of those four in balance, but

868
00:42:57,760 --> 00:43:01,480
Speaker 1: if one of those is depleted over time, it's going

869
00:43:01,560 --> 00:43:04,359
Speaker 1: to start to have an impact. If the energy isn't there,

870
00:43:04,719 --> 00:43:06,440
Speaker 1: clearly we're going to run out of gas, We lose

871
00:43:06,480 --> 00:43:10,480
Speaker 1: our creativity. If our development's not there, then we're going

872
00:43:10,560 --> 00:43:13,200
Speaker 1: to stagnate. If the partner relationships there, we're going to

873
00:43:13,239 --> 00:43:14,560
Speaker 1: start to get too isolated.

874
00:43:14,920 --> 00:43:17,160
Speaker 2: Obviously, the achievement's the one that tends to be there.

875
00:43:17,239 --> 00:43:20,400
Speaker 1: So I think that would be my very strong recommendation

876
00:43:20,480 --> 00:43:24,000
Speaker 1: to people think about performance in those four elements achieve developing.

877
00:43:24,080 --> 00:43:27,160
Speaker 1: Joy Partner put it into something like a ninety day cadence,

878
00:43:27,440 --> 00:43:29,600
Speaker 1: and I think you'll find that can have quite a

879
00:43:29,680 --> 00:43:32,440
Speaker 1: significant impact, and we use it a lot. We're getting

880
00:43:32,800 --> 00:43:35,239
Speaker 1: leaders to coach their teams as well. It's a great

881
00:43:35,280 --> 00:43:38,640
Speaker 1: little debrief for the team. Do an adep debrief for

882
00:43:38,640 --> 00:43:40,640
Speaker 1: the last ninety days. What do we achieve, what do

883
00:43:40,680 --> 00:43:42,840
Speaker 1: we develop, etc. Now, a couple of things where we

884
00:43:42,880 --> 00:43:45,479
Speaker 1: didn't quite get there in each of those areas, where next?

885
00:43:45,840 --> 00:43:48,280
Speaker 1: And you can build that cadence and that's the alignment

886
00:43:48,960 --> 00:43:50,840
Speaker 1: that then builds the collaboration and the learning.

887
00:43:51,080 --> 00:43:53,960
Speaker 3: Yeah, I love it. I love it. Awesome stuff. I've

888
00:43:54,000 --> 00:43:58,080
Speaker 3: loved everything about this conversation. It's been awesome. Can we

889
00:43:58,160 --> 00:44:00,759
Speaker 3: send people if they want to read your books? You

890
00:44:00,840 --> 00:44:03,719
Speaker 3: got a number of different books. But also if there's

891
00:44:03,840 --> 00:44:06,319
Speaker 3: corporates here who want to book in to to come

892
00:44:06,320 --> 00:44:08,800
Speaker 3: in and do some work with their teams. Where's the

893
00:44:08,840 --> 00:44:09,520
Speaker 3: best place to go.

894
00:44:09,920 --> 00:44:12,240
Speaker 1: Easiest place to fuyd me's either Graham Winter on LinkedIn

895
00:44:12,640 --> 00:44:15,359
Speaker 1: or I think one Team dot com. But I think

896
00:44:15,400 --> 00:44:18,279
Speaker 1: one Team dot com has got all of the sort

897
00:44:18,280 --> 00:44:21,000
Speaker 1: of connections to books and so on. That's all I've

898
00:44:21,000 --> 00:44:23,680
Speaker 1: got connection my most recent book, Talking for Turbulence, that's

899
00:44:24,120 --> 00:44:27,000
Speaker 1: co author with Martin bean So. Martin's the vice chancellor

900
00:44:27,040 --> 00:44:30,120
Speaker 1: at r MIT for for five or six years. So

901
00:44:30,200 --> 00:44:33,160
Speaker 1: we wrote that alongside a bunch of other sort of

902
00:44:33,200 --> 00:44:35,960
Speaker 1: cheap executives from around the country looking at operating in

903
00:44:36,040 --> 00:44:39,040
Speaker 1: high turbulence environments. Now Kevin Sullivan, the Corners Pilot, one

904
00:44:39,080 --> 00:44:41,160
Speaker 1: of those. So but yeah, they can they can sort

905
00:44:41,160 --> 00:44:42,680
Speaker 1: of access resources there as well.

906
00:44:43,080 --> 00:44:45,840
Speaker 3: Yeah. Cool, last question, what's next or what are you

907
00:44:45,920 --> 00:44:46,600
Speaker 3: excited about?

908
00:44:47,040 --> 00:44:50,240
Speaker 1: I'm trying to work out whether I'm gonna wing foil

909
00:44:51,280 --> 00:44:57,000
Speaker 1: and this has got nothing to do with with with career. Yeah,

910
00:44:57,040 --> 00:44:58,680
Speaker 1: I've just got to the point where I'm just about

911
00:44:58,719 --> 00:45:00,200
Speaker 1: to work out how to get the wing for oil

912
00:45:00,320 --> 00:45:03,360
Speaker 1: the work and this is a completely different experience.

913
00:45:03,520 --> 00:45:05,840
Speaker 2: So what's this.

914
00:45:06,960 --> 00:45:08,919
Speaker 1: Will you get a wing like a four to five

915
00:45:08,960 --> 00:45:12,120
Speaker 1: to six meter blow up wing and then a board

916
00:45:12,200 --> 00:45:15,360
Speaker 1: with a foil on the bottom and you put the

917
00:45:15,400 --> 00:45:18,520
Speaker 1: two together with water and wind and I've got it.

918
00:45:18,719 --> 00:45:21,200
Speaker 2: I've I've got a going but I want to I

919
00:45:21,320 --> 00:45:24,200
Speaker 2: just think it's the coolest thing. So so that's for that,

920
00:45:24,440 --> 00:45:26,440
Speaker 2: and then I mean the other stuff is I just

921
00:45:26,719 --> 00:45:27,560
Speaker 2: I'm gonna love what I do.

922
00:45:27,640 --> 00:45:29,759
Speaker 1: I enjoy the enjoy the stuff with clients, So I

923
00:45:29,840 --> 00:45:32,320
Speaker 1: don't see that's that sort of shifting.

924
00:45:32,360 --> 00:45:34,400
Speaker 2: I think as a good made of mine, Cetter, I

925
00:45:34,600 --> 00:45:36,080
Speaker 2: played cricket few years ago.

926
00:45:36,200 --> 00:45:38,920
Speaker 1: Mate, I fear retirement more than debt. I fear retirement

927
00:45:38,960 --> 00:45:39,480
Speaker 1: more than debt.

928
00:45:40,320 --> 00:45:44,040
Speaker 3: It is a very quick way to massively accelerate your

929
00:45:44,120 --> 00:45:48,120
Speaker 3: cognitive retarget So yeah, keep doing what you're doing that

930
00:45:48,440 --> 00:45:49,120
Speaker 3: awesome stuff.

931
00:45:49,719 --> 00:45:53,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, but thanks. I thoroughly enjoyed the conversation. Love your work.

932
00:45:53,040 --> 00:45:55,560
Speaker 1: I love your I love the way you combine the physical,

933
00:45:55,680 --> 00:45:58,759
Speaker 1: the psychological, and the practical together, so I could I think.

934
00:45:58,840 --> 00:45:59,839
Speaker 2: I think you're doing a great job.

935
00:46:00,160 --> 00:46:01,200
Speaker 3: Thanks Grim. Cheers