WEBVTT -  Buried alive: Roger Byard Pt. 2

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<v Speaker 1>The public has had a long held fascination with detectives.

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<v Speaker 1>Detective sy aside of life, the average person is never

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<v Speaker 1>exposed her I spent thirty four years as a cop.

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<v Speaker 1>For twenty five of those years I was catching killers.

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<v Speaker 1>That's what I did for a living. I was a

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<v Speaker 1>homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead,

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<v Speaker 1>I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated.

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<v Speaker 1>The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories

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<v Speaker 1>from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw

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<v Speaker 1>and honest, just like the people I talk to. Some

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<v Speaker 1>of the content and language might be confronting. That's because

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<v Speaker 1>no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged.

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<v Speaker 1>Join me now as I take you into this world.

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<v Speaker 1>In part two of my chat with forensic pathologists Professor

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<v Speaker 1>of Roger by Art, we discuss the murder of twenty

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<v Speaker 1>one year old Jasmine Kor, who is buried alive, the

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<v Speaker 1>horrors of the Boxing Day tsunami, and the Balley bombings.

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<v Speaker 1>We also talked about the work Roger does that prevents

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<v Speaker 1>death and how Roger looks at the way we deal

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<v Speaker 1>with death. Roger, You've seen so much death, and I

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<v Speaker 1>was interested in a quote from yourself, and I'll just

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<v Speaker 1>read it out and get you to comment on that

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<v Speaker 1>if you could. I think that recognizing death as part

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<v Speaker 1>of life, as a transition is really important. It's something

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<v Speaker 1>we fail these days. We sanitize it. What do you

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<v Speaker 1>mean by those quotes.

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<v Speaker 2>We're frightened of death nowadays? I mean we've always been

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<v Speaker 2>frightened to death. But in the old days, I think

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<v Speaker 2>there was a lot more acceptance of death as part

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<v Speaker 2>of life. A lot of children died of diseases, and

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<v Speaker 2>the bodies weren't just whisked away and you know, cremated.

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<v Speaker 2>You'd lay the body out and have a wake. You'd

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<v Speaker 2>celebrate the person's existence. In the nineteenth century leads to

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<v Speaker 2>take photographs of the you, mum and dad dressed up

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<v Speaker 2>and the baby dead in a coffin as a memento.

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<v Speaker 2>And that's not creepy. That is just remember, bring the

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<v Speaker 2>person so that you've got some sort of token to

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<v Speaker 2>take with you. Whereas we just we don't talk about it.

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<v Speaker 2>We're more and more frightened of it. Whereas it is

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<v Speaker 2>part of life, it's going to happen to us all.

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<v Speaker 2>I went to a writer's Week in Adelaide, and they

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<v Speaker 2>were talking about death and they just weren't getting it.

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<v Speaker 2>And I just said, the last time I was in

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<v Speaker 2>the tent as big as this, as hot as this,

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<v Speaker 2>with as many bodies, it was Thailand, the tsunami, and

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<v Speaker 2>they're all dead, I said. And the tires had a

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<v Speaker 2>very The monks would wander around the bodies at night, chanting,

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<v Speaker 2>helping them on their paths. So there was an acceptance

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<v Speaker 2>that they could actually commemorate these people, which is something

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<v Speaker 2>we don't do.

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<v Speaker 1>And do you think that has a detrimental effect to

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<v Speaker 1>the way we deal with death? And I think so.

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<v Speaker 2>I think it's just we're becoming more and more sanitized

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<v Speaker 2>and more and more closed off. We're closing off from

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<v Speaker 2>human interaction with our computers and social media. Just the

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<v Speaker 2>I see people down the beach with their dog when

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<v Speaker 2>I take my dog for a walk, and they've got

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<v Speaker 2>headphones on. I mean, why not stand hard? You know,

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<v Speaker 2>what's the point of being down there? And they're not.

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<v Speaker 2>They're just focused on what they're listening to, probably your podcast.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, I was going to say, the one proviser there,

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<v Speaker 1>if I catch kill this podcast, they're doing well, But yeah,

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<v Speaker 1>I know what you're saying, and the fact that the

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<v Speaker 1>sanitized it where we're more aware of death and now

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<v Speaker 1>I look at it, it just gets push pushed away.

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<v Speaker 1>So in the work that you did, do you have

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<v Speaker 1>your colleagues that would support support the people that you

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<v Speaker 1>worked with, because I know in the homicide world sometimes

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<v Speaker 1>I couldn't go home and talk about what we've seen

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<v Speaker 1>or done that your colleagues you do brief Did you

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<v Speaker 1>have that support from colleagues.

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<v Speaker 2>It's interesting. We were talking earlier just about how you

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<v Speaker 2>deal with cases, and you know, I was saying, you

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<v Speaker 2>focus on the science. I remember one case of a

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<v Speaker 2>little boy who had been punched by the de facto boyfriend,

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<v Speaker 2>and this fellow had actually videoed this little boy dying,

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<v Speaker 2>that's how bad it was. But when I opened his abdomen,

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<v Speaker 2>I got this stench of you know, rotting parisanaitis, and

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<v Speaker 2>I brought tears in my eyes. I was just leaning

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<v Speaker 2>over and I was sort of just I had to

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<v Speaker 2>actually put that behind me. I was seeing the big picture.

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<v Speaker 2>I had to focus on what I was doing. And

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<v Speaker 2>what had happened is that he'd been punched really forcefully

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<v Speaker 2>and his intestines had ruptured, so they'd torn, so all

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<v Speaker 2>the contents gets into the abdominal cavity causes this really

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<v Speaker 2>vile inflammatory action, and so that was the smell and

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<v Speaker 2>talking to my colleagues as well. When I had Jasmine

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<v Speaker 2>and I found all the soil and the upper airway,

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<v Speaker 2>I called my colleagues in to have a look at it,

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<v Speaker 2>and they still told me that they're shattered by just

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<v Speaker 2>just seeing that. But we it's like soldiers in the trenches,

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<v Speaker 2>like police. You know your colleagues know what you're going through,

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<v Speaker 2>and you can talk to them. I went to see

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<v Speaker 2>a counselor after Jasmine. The manager said, you really need

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<v Speaker 2>to get this scene too, because I was I was

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<v Speaker 2>going to bed at night thinking over I was waking

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<v Speaker 2>up in the morning and at the end of the

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<v Speaker 2>council said, I said, well, you know, I just wanted

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<v Speaker 2>some techniques of getting this out of my head. And

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<v Speaker 2>she said, it's very difficult, isn't it. You told me

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<v Speaker 2>something I don't know.

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<v Speaker 1>You've mentioned that Jazz main call and obviously it plays

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<v Speaker 1>on you pretty heavily. Can you tell us about that case?

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<v Speaker 1>The details of that case.

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<v Speaker 2>I can because it's gone through the courts, And he

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<v Speaker 2>pleaded guilty. So she was a really lovely young Punjabi

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<v Speaker 2>woman who's working in a nursing home and she'd had

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<v Speaker 2>a relationship with a young Indian fellow and had told

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<v Speaker 2>him very nicely that she liked him, but he wasn't

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<v Speaker 2>the one for her, and so he just flipped out

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<v Speaker 2>and the day before went to Bunnings on CTV footage

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<v Speaker 2>buying cable ties a shovel. It was so well thought out,

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<v Speaker 2>was so stupid. He gave a mate his car with

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<v Speaker 2>his phone in it to go south when he was

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<v Speaker 2>kidnapping her from her workplace, tied up, put her in

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<v Speaker 2>the boot, drove around for five hours. Yeah, and a

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<v Speaker 2>lot of terror for her. Imagine what it was like

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<v Speaker 2>five hours in the boot, and then took her up

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<v Speaker 2>north and dug her grave and put her in it

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<v Speaker 2>and buried her alive. It's most horrific thing that I've

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<v Speaker 2>ever come across.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I'm just comprehending what you've.

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<v Speaker 2>I'm outraged by it. Yeah, there were no drugs. She

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<v Speaker 2>did never hit injury, so she was completely conscious.

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<v Speaker 1>The examination when you examined her body, did you find

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<v Speaker 1>this out at the time.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, it's interesting because she had some cuts on the

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<v Speaker 2>side of her neck that I thought, as I said,

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<v Speaker 2>were the cause her death. But then we found the

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<v Speaker 2>soil and yes.

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<v Speaker 1>It was just then the soul was in her.

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<v Speaker 2>In her right down into her, and she also swallowed

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<v Speaker 2>some as well. It's the only time I've been to

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<v Speaker 2>a sentencing because I didn't get a chance to see

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<v Speaker 2>him in court because he pleaded guilty. So I wanted

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<v Speaker 2>to actually just look at him and just see what

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<v Speaker 2>sort of monster this was. And he looks so ordinary,

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<v Speaker 2>He looks so bernal, you.

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<v Speaker 1>Know, and that's funny. But that can freak you out

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<v Speaker 1>more than if you're looking for this monster.

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<v Speaker 2>I want to see Charles Manson, Yeah, that would have

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<v Speaker 2>made you want to see that understandable.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, what is it about that particular case that stuck

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<v Speaker 1>with you so heavily.

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<v Speaker 2>I think that she was just such a sweet, young,

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<v Speaker 2>innocent She was over here, she only had a mum

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<v Speaker 2>in India. She was staying with her uncles, so he

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<v Speaker 2>would feel responsibility for it. Her mother's lost her only child.

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<v Speaker 2>It's just there's nothing good about that story.

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<v Speaker 1>Now I can what can you say? She had come

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<v Speaker 1>from India, But you did some interesting work again, horrific

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<v Speaker 1>work stemming from a conference that you attended over in

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<v Speaker 1>India and you came into contact with someone about the

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<v Speaker 1>acid attacks on women in India.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, pret Core is a she's a PhD lawyer, academic

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<v Speaker 2>and she co founded the Lasmi Foundation, which is a

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<v Speaker 2>foundation for acid attack victims. And acid attacks are very

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<v Speaker 2>common in India. Acid so furry gasid particularly is very cheap.

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<v Speaker 2>They use it in the cleaning drains, they use it

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<v Speaker 2>for cleaning equipment. And it's usually a spurned lover or

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<v Speaker 2>a jealous male and to get his revenge, he throws

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<v Speaker 2>acid on these young women's faces. Only four percent of

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<v Speaker 2>them die, but they're completely disfigured. They often go blind

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<v Speaker 2>because their eyes have been burnt. They can't breathe because

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<v Speaker 2>their nose is gone. They can't hear because the ear

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<v Speaker 2>canals are gone. They may have tremendous deformity, so they

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<v Speaker 2>can't speak or eat properly. They look horrific. So this

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<v Speaker 2>person has condemned them to a life of suffering pain

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<v Speaker 2>medical procedures. Sometimes their families shun them because they can't

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<v Speaker 2>afford to support them, or they just don't want them

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<v Speaker 2>as part of the family.

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<v Speaker 1>Shun the victim.

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<v Speaker 2>I wanted to do a study with Navpret on the

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<v Speaker 2>suicide rate in these women, but of course there's no

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<v Speaker 2>data there. But what these organizations are doing, like the

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<v Speaker 2>Laxmi Foundation, they've got a Shiro's Cafe in Agra. These

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<v Speaker 2>young women actually front the cafe. They serve and they

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<v Speaker 2>work there and they put themselves right out in front

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<v Speaker 2>of you know, it's remarkable. I did meet the young

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<v Speaker 2>woman need To who was the subject of a film

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<v Speaker 2>as a director in Melbourne, who did this film called

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<v Speaker 2>Geta because kneed To, Her sister and her mother were

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<v Speaker 2>asset attacked by her father because there were no boys

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<v Speaker 2>in the family and knit Too's got tremendous scarngh a

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<v Speaker 2>very poor vision, but it's interesting. Aw for about half

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<v Speaker 2>an hour with her, you don't see the scars.

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<v Speaker 1>You know.

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<v Speaker 2>Resilience is a word that's abused. She is one of

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<v Speaker 2>the most resilient people I've known. And again it comes

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<v Speaker 2>back to why you do forensic pathology. It's such a

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<v Speaker 2>privilege to be able to meet with these people and

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<v Speaker 2>to try and help. So what Gravpret and I do

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<v Speaker 2>is we've written a number of papers for the medical

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<v Speaker 2>community on asset attacks on dowry deaths, you know, people

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<v Speaker 2>being murdered for their dowries, on child labor, all sorts

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<v Speaker 2>of sort of human rights abuses that occurring in India. Now,

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<v Speaker 2>what right do I have to do to do that?

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<v Speaker 2>Navpret's got the information and we work together very well

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<v Speaker 2>disseminating it, letting people.

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<v Speaker 1>Know, okay, to get that get that story out again.

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<v Speaker 1>Preventative And how prevalent is it?

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<v Speaker 2>Like extremely prevalent. There are thousands of cases of this

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<v Speaker 2>in Pakistan and Bangladesh and India, and it happens all

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<v Speaker 2>over the world. It's in the UK it's called face

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<v Speaker 2>melting and it's often often rival gangs who do it

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<v Speaker 2>to each other. So bloke, So it's not it doesn't

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<v Speaker 2>have that sort of sexual element.

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<v Speaker 1>No, it's brutal.

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<v Speaker 2>It's it's a palling.

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<v Speaker 1>The fact that it's happening over in India. So prevalent

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<v Speaker 1>there is it almost a cultural thing that the education

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<v Speaker 1>you've you've got to change the narrative.

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<v Speaker 2>That's exactly right. And what navpreta since they go around

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<v Speaker 2>the schools and she once sent me a text and

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<v Speaker 2>it would I like to write a paper about menstruation?

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<v Speaker 2>So I texted back in two pico seconds. No, but

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<v Speaker 2>then she started telling me that you eighteen percent of

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<v Speaker 2>women in India have access to sanitary products. They're using

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<v Speaker 2>newspapers and leaves, and so we wrote that paper to

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<v Speaker 2>draw attention to it so that the authorities can then

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<v Speaker 2>do thing. I mean, the boys and girls don't have

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<v Speaker 2>separate toilets, but they are going to the schools and

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<v Speaker 2>they're trying to educate the youth, because that's the way

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<v Speaker 2>to go about just treating people with respect and giving

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<v Speaker 2>people a go.

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<v Speaker 1>Roger, where do you find the time and the passion

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<v Speaker 1>to pursue these things?

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<v Speaker 2>Well, I don't sleep, okay, well's yeah, no, I've worked out.

0:11:45.960 --> 0:11:48.280
<v Speaker 2>Actually recently, I've worked more than sixty hours a week

0:11:48.320 --> 0:11:51.920
<v Speaker 2>for four decades. I'm a bit tired.

0:11:53.360 --> 0:11:57.200
<v Speaker 1>You can happen that after we've finish. Happened that. But look,

0:11:57.400 --> 0:11:59.440
<v Speaker 1>if you're doing a job that you're passionate about, it's

0:11:59.440 --> 0:12:00.000
<v Speaker 1>not like working.

0:12:00.280 --> 0:12:01.920
<v Speaker 2>It's not working. That's what my boss is to say.

0:12:01.920 --> 0:12:03.800
<v Speaker 2>If they pay you for doing stuff you like, then

0:12:03.920 --> 0:12:04.600
<v Speaker 2>you know you win.

0:12:05.040 --> 0:12:08.200
<v Speaker 1>Have there been any good role models that you've learned

0:12:08.240 --> 0:12:09.160
<v Speaker 1>a lot from.

0:12:10.040 --> 0:12:14.920
<v Speaker 2>A couple not pathologists actually, but my first mentor in

0:12:15.200 --> 0:12:17.240
<v Speaker 2>Ottawa when I was training in pathology was a blow

0:12:17.240 --> 0:12:20.640
<v Speaker 2>called Irving Dartik. I did research term with him and

0:12:20.360 --> 0:12:22.400
<v Speaker 2>he said, you know what I want is I want

0:12:22.400 --> 0:12:24.679
<v Speaker 2>my students to do better than me, and he meant that.

0:12:25.160 --> 0:12:30.240
<v Speaker 2>And another fellow Grant Sutherland, he's a geneticist. He climbed

0:12:30.280 --> 0:12:33.360
<v Speaker 2>the fragile extremee. I personally think he was in line

0:12:33.360 --> 0:12:35.920
<v Speaker 2>for a Nobel prize. But once he had achieved what

0:12:35.960 --> 0:12:38.880
<v Speaker 2>he wanted to achieve, he retired and started up a

0:12:38.920 --> 0:12:43.800
<v Speaker 2>small farm. A man very happy with himself. But also

0:12:44.280 --> 0:12:49.880
<v Speaker 2>just shows you you don't have to be toxic to

0:12:49.880 --> 0:12:52.480
<v Speaker 2>get to the top. You know, if you treat people properly,

0:12:52.520 --> 0:12:55.679
<v Speaker 2>you can still mentor people and encourage people. And that's

0:12:55.679 --> 0:12:57.600
<v Speaker 2>the way, and that's those two are being great.

0:12:57.760 --> 0:13:01.280
<v Speaker 1>It's good to have those type of role models or

0:13:01.280 --> 0:13:04.040
<v Speaker 1>people that you can learn things from. What's the messaging

0:13:04.200 --> 0:13:06.600
<v Speaker 1>you give when you're teaching people that are starting out

0:13:06.640 --> 0:13:08.800
<v Speaker 1>in the field that you're worked in. What's the type

0:13:08.800 --> 0:13:10.119
<v Speaker 1>of message you would pass.

0:13:09.880 --> 0:13:14.480
<v Speaker 2>On give up now you've got a chance. No, I

0:13:14.520 --> 0:13:18.400
<v Speaker 2>tell them that it's if you're going to do You've

0:13:18.440 --> 0:13:21.840
<v Speaker 2>only got one shot at life. And so you know,

0:13:22.200 --> 0:13:24.120
<v Speaker 2>you've got to do stuff that you enjoy doing, and

0:13:24.120 --> 0:13:27.480
<v Speaker 2>that's important. I mean, it may be flower ranging, if

0:13:27.520 --> 0:13:30.000
<v Speaker 2>it's important to you and you do it well, excellent.

0:13:30.920 --> 0:13:33.840
<v Speaker 2>My boss's retired now in forensics, so he hadn't written

0:13:33.840 --> 0:13:35.520
<v Speaker 2>a paper in his life, but he's a very good fisherman,

0:13:35.920 --> 0:13:38.040
<v Speaker 2>and so I respected his fishing prowss.

0:13:38.120 --> 0:13:38.360
<v Speaker 1>You know.

0:13:38.400 --> 0:13:40.160
<v Speaker 2>So it doesn't matter what you do, just as long

0:13:40.160 --> 0:13:41.720
<v Speaker 2>as you do it with enjoyment.

0:13:42.280 --> 0:13:45.920
<v Speaker 1>Is compassion an important part of the type of work

0:13:45.920 --> 0:13:46.320
<v Speaker 1>that you do.

0:13:46.840 --> 0:13:50.560
<v Speaker 2>I think, yes, you've got to have credibility and you've

0:13:50.559 --> 0:13:55.240
<v Speaker 2>got to have compassion. If you don't feel the need

0:13:56.000 --> 0:13:58.000
<v Speaker 2>to help people, then you should be in something else.

0:13:58.000 --> 0:13:59.880
<v Speaker 2>And I think this is part of the problem with medicine.

0:14:00.240 --> 0:14:02.440
<v Speaker 2>It's one of the reasons I got out of clinical medicine.

0:14:02.480 --> 0:14:04.920
<v Speaker 2>It's becoming a bit of a factory, you know, to

0:14:04.960 --> 0:14:08.480
<v Speaker 2>make a few extra bucks to put your kids from

0:14:08.520 --> 0:14:11.439
<v Speaker 2>your third family through private school and buy another Mercedes.

0:14:11.720 --> 0:14:14.400
<v Speaker 2>You well, not not using caricat.

0:14:14.880 --> 0:14:18.959
<v Speaker 1>I understand exactly what you're saying, but credibility and compassion,

0:14:19.520 --> 0:14:22.200
<v Speaker 1>you do need that combination. Because I think we've all

0:14:22.560 --> 0:14:26.400
<v Speaker 1>gone to get medical advice and there's someone that they've

0:14:26.400 --> 0:14:28.840
<v Speaker 1>got the academic skills, they've got the science, but the

0:14:28.840 --> 0:14:31.680
<v Speaker 1>delivery of the message is yeah, it's not what I need.

0:14:32.200 --> 0:14:35.440
<v Speaker 1>If someone's are the important part talking about their health

0:14:35.520 --> 0:14:38.480
<v Speaker 1>or their future, you need someone that's got the compassion

0:14:38.560 --> 0:14:42.360
<v Speaker 1>understanding then can deliver the message. Because I think the

0:14:42.480 --> 0:14:45.280
<v Speaker 1>days are going where we put the same for policing,

0:14:45.320 --> 0:14:47.480
<v Speaker 1>but for doctors, where they're put on the pedestal and

0:14:47.800 --> 0:14:50.400
<v Speaker 1>we never question. You go see your local doctor growing

0:14:50.480 --> 0:14:52.960
<v Speaker 1>up and Okay, that's what the doctor said, that's what

0:14:53.000 --> 0:14:57.440
<v Speaker 1>you do. But it's readily available on the internet that

0:14:57.560 --> 0:15:01.080
<v Speaker 1>doctor Google. Well, doctor Google diagnosed yourself, so they can question.

0:15:01.160 --> 0:15:03.200
<v Speaker 1>But you need that communication skill.

0:15:03.800 --> 0:15:04.720
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I agree.

0:15:05.160 --> 0:15:08.960
<v Speaker 1>I'm going to talk about the two thousand and four tsunami,

0:15:09.240 --> 0:15:12.920
<v Speaker 1>which Asian tsunami. I remember it was a horrific, horrific

0:15:13.000 --> 0:15:16.400
<v Speaker 1>day and hundreds of thousands of people were killed as

0:15:16.440 --> 0:15:20.440
<v Speaker 1>a result of that. What was your role in responding

0:15:20.480 --> 0:15:20.760
<v Speaker 1>to that.

0:15:21.080 --> 0:15:23.120
<v Speaker 2>I didn't think i'd be asked to go, but I

0:15:23.120 --> 0:15:25.800
<v Speaker 2>went in the second rotation, so I was there in

0:15:25.840 --> 0:15:30.000
<v Speaker 2>the second week. And essentially because of the AFP's experience

0:15:30.080 --> 0:15:33.560
<v Speaker 2>with Australian Federal Police experience with the balley bombings. The

0:15:33.760 --> 0:15:39.080
<v Speaker 2>ties were working with them. The ties were excellent. They

0:15:39.200 --> 0:15:45.080
<v Speaker 2>really did an amazing job. But essentially, teams would come

0:15:45.120 --> 0:15:48.040
<v Speaker 2>over basically the body to be brought in. You would

0:15:48.080 --> 0:15:54.920
<v Speaker 2>do examinations, not full autopsies, just adult male tattoo, dental examination,

0:15:55.320 --> 0:15:58.840
<v Speaker 2>DNA fingerprints, and then compare it to people who are

0:15:58.880 --> 0:16:00.960
<v Speaker 2>known to be in the area. Part of the problem

0:16:01.000 --> 0:16:02.920
<v Speaker 2>is I wrote a paper and I called it DVII

0:16:03.040 --> 0:16:08.320
<v Speaker 2>tourism because so many teams arrive around the world, around

0:16:08.360 --> 0:16:10.680
<v Speaker 2>the world, and you know, they have to be accommodated,

0:16:10.720 --> 0:16:14.320
<v Speaker 2>they have to be fed. Sometimes their language is not English.

0:16:14.480 --> 0:16:18.080
<v Speaker 2>So you know, I always said, when I was on

0:16:18.200 --> 0:16:20.280
<v Speaker 2>the state, dv I commit the first thing I would

0:16:20.280 --> 0:16:22.960
<v Speaker 2>do is put signs around the state saying keep out.

0:16:23.560 --> 0:16:25.960
<v Speaker 2>Take forty eight hours just to work out how we

0:16:25.960 --> 0:16:29.680
<v Speaker 2>were going to do it. Processes, yeah, hasten slowly.

0:16:29.680 --> 0:16:33.200
<v Speaker 1>Because I'm trying to comprehend. And if you could paint

0:16:33.240 --> 0:16:35.760
<v Speaker 1>a picture, you know, when we're talking hundreds of thousands

0:16:35.760 --> 0:16:39.120
<v Speaker 1>of people killed, and yeah, we all saw the images

0:16:39.160 --> 0:16:41.640
<v Speaker 1>of the waves washing in the floods and the sharp

0:16:41.680 --> 0:16:46.000
<v Speaker 1>metal floating around that people drowning. People have horrendous injuries.

0:16:46.280 --> 0:16:48.680
<v Speaker 1>It's in the tropics, so a body is going to

0:16:48.680 --> 0:16:53.560
<v Speaker 1>decompose very quickly. I would imagine what were the processes

0:16:53.600 --> 0:16:55.880
<v Speaker 1>that were put in place to and the purpose of

0:16:55.920 --> 0:16:58.800
<v Speaker 1>it was to identify as many people. That's correct, you

0:16:58.840 --> 0:17:02.920
<v Speaker 1>weren't going there. This person died specifically that it was

0:17:03.120 --> 0:17:06.800
<v Speaker 1>identifying the bodies. So what were the processes that were

0:17:06.800 --> 0:17:07.200
<v Speaker 1>put in.

0:17:07.160 --> 0:17:11.040
<v Speaker 2>Place identifying and repatriating. Well, in Thailand, the bodies were

0:17:11.040 --> 0:17:17.400
<v Speaker 2>brought into Buddhist temples because they had space to put containers,

0:17:17.480 --> 0:17:22.960
<v Speaker 2>freeze and frozen containers, and the the Thai troops volunteered

0:17:22.960 --> 0:17:25.359
<v Speaker 2>to work on it, so you'd have the bodies and

0:17:25.400 --> 0:17:30.280
<v Speaker 2>the containers. They'd be wheeled out. They were spraying all

0:17:30.400 --> 0:17:36.359
<v Speaker 2>this stuff around to reduce decomposition and everything. And my

0:17:36.440 --> 0:17:38.600
<v Speaker 2>mortuary tendant was really worried about this stuff and I said,

0:17:38.600 --> 0:17:41.480
<v Speaker 2>I don't worry about it's probably water. And he said

0:17:41.480 --> 0:17:44.720
<v Speaker 2>one day said look, the naggots are dead. And I said, oh,

0:17:44.960 --> 0:17:47.159
<v Speaker 2>nothing kills makets. You can freeze them. And so I

0:17:47.200 --> 0:17:49.399
<v Speaker 2>went out and these folks from their full suits spraying

0:17:49.400 --> 0:17:52.320
<v Speaker 2>around and I said, what is this stuff? No idea,

0:17:52.359 --> 0:17:54.520
<v Speaker 2>but it really works, so God knows what.

0:17:54.480 --> 0:17:58.760
<v Speaker 1>We were exposed to could be the age and orange probably.

0:17:59.359 --> 0:18:01.280
<v Speaker 2>So anyway, the body would come in and they would

0:18:01.560 --> 0:18:05.000
<v Speaker 2>they'd be fingerprinted by police officers. They'd come to us

0:18:05.240 --> 0:18:10.000
<v Speaker 2>and we would do the identification and detail what we thought.

0:18:10.000 --> 0:18:12.880
<v Speaker 2>Then they would go to the dental people and we'd

0:18:12.880 --> 0:18:15.240
<v Speaker 2>take specimens of DNA and so we put all that

0:18:15.280 --> 0:18:18.840
<v Speaker 2>together and yeah, they'd be found in areas of tourist hotels,

0:18:18.880 --> 0:18:23.199
<v Speaker 2>so we'd have a list of people. So that's the

0:18:23.400 --> 0:18:25.159
<v Speaker 2>then you get the anti modern stuff from them. And

0:18:25.200 --> 0:18:27.120
<v Speaker 2>we developed the system there too, which was rather than

0:18:27.160 --> 0:18:30.439
<v Speaker 2>just identifying each body on its own, we started to

0:18:30.480 --> 0:18:34.000
<v Speaker 2>identify children against identified parents, so that you know, you

0:18:34.000 --> 0:18:36.040
<v Speaker 2>had the parents' DNA in the database and the children

0:18:36.080 --> 0:18:40.840
<v Speaker 2>you can actually identify through that. But it's a lot

0:18:40.840 --> 0:18:44.440
<v Speaker 2>of interesting things happened. And I wrote a paper recently

0:18:44.600 --> 0:18:48.160
<v Speaker 2>called Hiding in Plane Sight, and I was just talking

0:18:48.200 --> 0:18:52.200
<v Speaker 2>about how best to hide a homicide if you can

0:18:52.200 --> 0:18:54.920
<v Speaker 2>put the body amongst others. And I was called out

0:18:54.920 --> 0:18:57.120
<v Speaker 2>the back and there was a coffin under a whole

0:18:57.119 --> 0:18:59.480
<v Speaker 2>part of other coffins full of rotting bodies and they'd

0:18:59.480 --> 0:19:01.960
<v Speaker 2>taken those and there was the body of a young

0:19:02.000 --> 0:19:05.600
<v Speaker 2>woman that was fresh and so clearly she didn't die

0:19:05.640 --> 0:19:07.879
<v Speaker 2>in the sin, but in three days she would have

0:19:07.880 --> 0:19:10.280
<v Speaker 2>been writting like the rest. So handed her over to

0:19:10.320 --> 0:19:13.359
<v Speaker 2>the tire authorities. But I was talking about the blitz

0:19:13.400 --> 0:19:15.119
<v Speaker 2>in London. I think the crime rate went up like

0:19:15.160 --> 0:19:18.240
<v Speaker 2>forty seven percent. How easy would it be to follow

0:19:18.280 --> 0:19:19.800
<v Speaker 2>somebody home from the pub, hit them on the head,

0:19:19.880 --> 0:19:21.040
<v Speaker 2>chuck them into a bomb site.

0:19:21.800 --> 0:19:25.720
<v Speaker 1>I'm starting the wonder about you, Roger. You've come up

0:19:25.760 --> 0:19:30.040
<v Speaker 1>with you're obviously thinking too much about to get away

0:19:30.040 --> 0:19:32.960
<v Speaker 1>with murder. Yeah, well this I catch Killers. That's the

0:19:33.000 --> 0:19:33.760
<v Speaker 1>name of the podcast.

0:19:34.640 --> 0:19:35.480
<v Speaker 2>So I'm on your radar.

0:19:35.800 --> 0:19:40.680
<v Speaker 1>Yeah I've got another case. Yeah, I looking at that.

0:19:40.800 --> 0:19:43.560
<v Speaker 1>With what you're saying with the body body turning up there,

0:19:43.560 --> 0:19:47.560
<v Speaker 1>what a golden opportunity. You talked about the monks walking

0:19:47.600 --> 0:19:50.560
<v Speaker 1>around and that, and then dealing dealing with death. What

0:19:50.680 --> 0:19:52.560
<v Speaker 1>was I'm trying to get the sense of what the

0:19:52.600 --> 0:19:55.720
<v Speaker 1>feeling was for everyone involved in that, because it must

0:19:55.720 --> 0:19:56.080
<v Speaker 1>have been.

0:19:56.840 --> 0:20:00.400
<v Speaker 2>It was er, it was horrific. What the Tie did

0:20:00.400 --> 0:20:03.560
<v Speaker 2>at one stage is they had a ceremony to honor

0:20:03.600 --> 0:20:06.280
<v Speaker 2>the two thousand dead at Carlak and they diverted planes

0:20:06.280 --> 0:20:09.480
<v Speaker 2>around this so you had a whole stadium of monks

0:20:09.720 --> 0:20:12.800
<v Speaker 2>and we're on an oval with candles, and they had

0:20:12.840 --> 0:20:16.840
<v Speaker 2>these rice paper lanterns, each one representing one person that

0:20:16.880 --> 0:20:19.399
<v Speaker 2>they let go into the sky. It was you can

0:20:19.440 --> 0:20:21.199
<v Speaker 2>see it on the internet. It was like the Milky

0:20:21.240 --> 0:20:24.080
<v Speaker 2>Way overhead. It was the most beautiful thing I've ever

0:20:24.119 --> 0:20:26.600
<v Speaker 2>seen with the chanting. And yet the next day you

0:20:26.640 --> 0:20:31.760
<v Speaker 2>go back to basically trucks pulling up and just decomposed

0:20:31.760 --> 0:20:34.359
<v Speaker 2>bodies being being pulled out of them, hundreds and hundreds

0:20:34.359 --> 0:20:37.120
<v Speaker 2>and hundreds of them.

0:20:37.680 --> 0:20:38.879
<v Speaker 1>How did it impact on you?

0:20:39.600 --> 0:20:41.760
<v Speaker 2>I found it really difficult the first day I got there.

0:20:41.800 --> 0:20:45.160
<v Speaker 2>That the smell was extraordinary, the heat, the humidity. Yeah,

0:20:45.320 --> 0:20:47.680
<v Speaker 2>I as I said, I was offered the second chance

0:20:47.680 --> 0:20:49.440
<v Speaker 2>to go back the second time. Some people went back

0:20:49.480 --> 0:20:53.080
<v Speaker 2>five times. I couldn't do it. And I used to

0:20:53.119 --> 0:20:57.320
<v Speaker 2>get quite emotional when I saw people's presentations on Thailand

0:20:57.400 --> 0:20:58.520
<v Speaker 2>showing the pictures.

0:20:59.280 --> 0:21:00.280
<v Speaker 1>You know have.

0:21:02.480 --> 0:21:09.639
<v Speaker 2>A family member, you know, in their bathers with their child.

0:21:09.800 --> 0:21:12.320
<v Speaker 2>And I remember when one father was he knew that

0:21:12.400 --> 0:21:15.600
<v Speaker 2>we had his child, but the child hadn't gone through

0:21:15.640 --> 0:21:18.520
<v Speaker 2>the formal process of identifications. They couldn't be released, so

0:21:18.600 --> 0:21:21.760
<v Speaker 2>he was beside himself with anger. As you can imagine,

0:21:21.920 --> 0:21:25.520
<v Speaker 2>my little boy he is in there. There was one picture,

0:21:25.520 --> 0:21:29.280
<v Speaker 2>because the tires got boards, you could put pictures up

0:21:29.359 --> 0:21:32.400
<v Speaker 2>of your loved ones, and there was one little boy

0:21:32.400 --> 0:21:35.000
<v Speaker 2>with these beautiful, big blue eyes and had his name

0:21:35.040 --> 0:21:36.840
<v Speaker 2>and everything. I thought, you know, even if you get

0:21:36.880 --> 0:21:38.199
<v Speaker 2>him back, he's never going to be like that.

0:21:38.480 --> 0:21:39.080
<v Speaker 1>Yeah.

0:21:39.680 --> 0:21:42.480
<v Speaker 2>Yes, then the tires were I mean they had photographs

0:21:42.520 --> 0:21:45.160
<v Speaker 2>of the decomposing bodies, their faces, and families were coming around.

0:21:45.160 --> 0:21:47.480
<v Speaker 2>They had the seed easy you could take home and

0:21:47.480 --> 0:21:49.760
<v Speaker 2>go through them. You know, maybe it was some weird

0:21:49.800 --> 0:21:51.800
<v Speaker 2>shaped tooth or something that you could pick.

0:21:51.920 --> 0:21:56.800
<v Speaker 1>So do you think from disaster Victim Identification DBI, where

0:21:56.800 --> 0:22:00.119
<v Speaker 1>there's been multiple casualties to identify all the victims, do

0:22:00.160 --> 0:22:02.480
<v Speaker 1>you think we learned things from that practices?

0:22:02.680 --> 0:22:06.919
<v Speaker 2>You know we did, And there were there were some

0:22:06.920 --> 0:22:11.240
<v Speaker 2>teams that came that you know, weren't practicing pathologists, and

0:22:11.359 --> 0:22:14.159
<v Speaker 2>you know they were taking off the jewelry and putting

0:22:14.200 --> 0:22:18.680
<v Speaker 2>under the body, or not filling out the forms correctly

0:22:18.720 --> 0:22:20.320
<v Speaker 2>and taking the original forms with them. It was just

0:22:20.880 --> 0:22:23.600
<v Speaker 2>you know, coordinating that was was not easy.

0:22:24.080 --> 0:22:27.520
<v Speaker 1>Do you know you talk about bringing the bodies back

0:22:27.840 --> 0:22:30.800
<v Speaker 1>how many Australians You got an idea of the rough

0:22:30.840 --> 0:22:32.080
<v Speaker 1>figure that caught up in them.

0:22:32.160 --> 0:22:36.840
<v Speaker 2>I don't. Actually, one of the important things for me

0:22:37.040 --> 0:22:39.560
<v Speaker 2>was the last week I was there, there were two

0:22:39.600 --> 0:22:42.760
<v Speaker 2>Australian bodies and a couple of containers that weren't refrigerated.

0:22:43.040 --> 0:22:46.200
<v Speaker 2>I found them. And then one of the women came

0:22:46.200 --> 0:22:49.760
<v Speaker 2>from Adelaide and so I represented forensic science going out

0:22:49.800 --> 0:22:52.240
<v Speaker 2>to the plane when she came back to get the

0:22:52.240 --> 0:22:54.199
<v Speaker 2>body and met the family. So I thought that was

0:22:54.240 --> 0:22:58.600
<v Speaker 2>a sort of a nice finishing off. I'd been with

0:22:58.640 --> 0:23:01.840
<v Speaker 2>them in Thailand and I was there, come she came back.

0:23:01.920 --> 0:23:03.959
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, those things mean a lot.

0:23:04.200 --> 0:23:04.720
<v Speaker 2>I think they do.

0:23:05.640 --> 0:23:10.000
<v Speaker 1>Circumstances. Did you get was it mandatory for you to

0:23:10.040 --> 0:23:15.359
<v Speaker 1>sit down with a psychologist and talk these things? We

0:23:15.400 --> 0:23:17.720
<v Speaker 1>have that at homicide we'd have to go every six

0:23:17.760 --> 0:23:19.520
<v Speaker 1>months and sit down and talk. But it was that

0:23:19.560 --> 0:23:20.760
<v Speaker 1>part and parcel of it.

0:23:20.840 --> 0:23:23.879
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I did, and the psychologist I said, what was

0:23:23.880 --> 0:23:25.480
<v Speaker 2>one of the worst things? I said, We're just not

0:23:25.560 --> 0:23:28.119
<v Speaker 2>being recognized and he said, yeah, that's that's what happens

0:23:28.160 --> 0:23:30.199
<v Speaker 2>with me. So really, how do you deal with this?

0:23:30.240 --> 0:23:31.720
<v Speaker 2>I'd drink off headmen, I said, what do you drink

0:23:31.760 --> 0:23:34.160
<v Speaker 2>and whiskey. So we discussed whiskeys and then about two

0:23:34.160 --> 0:23:35.679
<v Speaker 2>weeks later I got an email from him saying, what

0:23:35.720 --> 0:23:39.280
<v Speaker 2>was that whiskey? You recommended Highland? So that was the

0:23:39.280 --> 0:23:40.800
<v Speaker 2>extent of the psychological support.

0:23:41.119 --> 0:23:44.800
<v Speaker 1>Okay, okay, you've talked and you've mentioned a couple of

0:23:44.800 --> 0:23:47.320
<v Speaker 1>times in while we've been sitting down the smell and

0:23:47.400 --> 0:23:49.639
<v Speaker 1>the smell of death, and unless you've smell that, you

0:23:49.680 --> 0:23:54.000
<v Speaker 1>can't you can't really describe it. It's hard to describe.

0:23:54.800 --> 0:23:57.720
<v Speaker 1>Does that have an impact on you, the amount of

0:23:57.760 --> 0:23:58.840
<v Speaker 1>death that you would have smelled.

0:24:00.359 --> 0:24:03.800
<v Speaker 2>It's something you do, you do get used to, and

0:24:04.280 --> 0:24:07.720
<v Speaker 2>after a few decades inhaling formalon, your smell's not as

0:24:07.720 --> 0:24:09.480
<v Speaker 2>good as it used to be. But we were down.

0:24:09.600 --> 0:24:13.520
<v Speaker 2>We had a ceremony at Patong Beach and one of

0:24:13.520 --> 0:24:18.119
<v Speaker 2>the mortue tenders and we walked over and there was

0:24:18.119 --> 0:24:20.879
<v Speaker 2>a remnants of a Japanese restaurant, and sure enough that

0:24:20.960 --> 0:24:24.199
<v Speaker 2>clearly little bodies under that. So I was thinking, you know,

0:24:24.280 --> 0:24:26.639
<v Speaker 2>he'd probably be cheaper than a sniffer dog. Maybe we

0:24:26.640 --> 0:24:28.200
<v Speaker 2>should use him.

0:24:28.880 --> 0:24:33.639
<v Speaker 1>It's not your first first experience in these type of things,

0:24:33.680 --> 0:24:37.879
<v Speaker 1>and the barley bombing, you're also had some involvement in that,

0:24:38.600 --> 0:24:42.160
<v Speaker 1>and that's I look at that from a different perspective

0:24:42.160 --> 0:24:45.720
<v Speaker 1>because that was an active evil murder court. Cause that

0:24:46.160 --> 0:24:49.280
<v Speaker 1>what was your experience dealing with the Barley bombings.

0:24:49.600 --> 0:24:51.360
<v Speaker 2>I came in later in that, so I was sort

0:24:51.400 --> 0:24:53.399
<v Speaker 2>of more auditing. But I had a fair bit to

0:24:53.440 --> 0:24:55.959
<v Speaker 2>do with Ikbar one of the suicide bombers at Paddy's Bar,

0:24:56.119 --> 0:24:59.960
<v Speaker 2>so I was repatriating his his remain.

0:25:01.320 --> 0:25:03.640
<v Speaker 1>Again, when you say you had a fair bit to

0:25:03.680 --> 0:25:06.159
<v Speaker 1>do with him, you were looking at his remains, so

0:25:06.359 --> 0:25:09.400
<v Speaker 1>that put all the pieces together. Basically, basically you find

0:25:09.400 --> 0:25:10.359
<v Speaker 1>out what happened.

0:25:10.800 --> 0:25:12.440
<v Speaker 2>The problem with Bali was interesting. I was watching it

0:25:12.480 --> 0:25:14.760
<v Speaker 2>when it first happened, and you know it was chaos,

0:25:14.800 --> 0:25:16.400
<v Speaker 2>but you had people trying to help, so they were

0:25:16.440 --> 0:25:19.439
<v Speaker 2>sweeping up stuff, so they were destroying the crime scene.

0:25:20.040 --> 0:25:23.240
<v Speaker 2>But of course, again with a DBI, the important thing

0:25:23.320 --> 0:25:26.520
<v Speaker 2>is not so much the deceased. It's to get the

0:25:27.359 --> 0:25:32.399
<v Speaker 2>injured and wounded out and looked after. But yes, Barlei

0:25:32.560 --> 0:25:36.119
<v Speaker 2>was particularly nasty because the bomb that went off at

0:25:36.160 --> 0:25:39.520
<v Speaker 2>the Sari Club was in a vehicle outside and there

0:25:39.640 --> 0:25:44.080
<v Speaker 2>was cast iron grating and glass, so there were secondary

0:25:44.080 --> 0:25:48.160
<v Speaker 2>projectiles that went into the nightclub, and of course there

0:25:48.200 --> 0:25:52.200
<v Speaker 2>was fire, so there was monoxide inhalation as well as

0:25:52.200 --> 0:25:54.879
<v Speaker 2>the injuries. People were crushed trying to get out of

0:25:54.920 --> 0:25:56.840
<v Speaker 2>the doors. So there were a whole lot of different

0:25:56.840 --> 0:26:01.840
<v Speaker 2>things that went on there, and the bodies were fragmented,

0:26:01.920 --> 0:26:06.360
<v Speaker 2>unlike Thailand, where mostly in Thailand the bodies were intact.

0:26:06.400 --> 0:26:09.480
<v Speaker 2>But you do occasionally find strange things. I was in

0:26:09.760 --> 0:26:12.560
<v Speaker 2>mortuary in Thailand and colleague from Zealand and said, look

0:26:12.560 --> 0:26:15.320
<v Speaker 2>at this, and it was an adult woman and her

0:26:15.359 --> 0:26:20.200
<v Speaker 2>head had exploded. And I said, have you found pellets

0:26:20.240 --> 0:26:22.880
<v Speaker 2>because it looked like a shotgun. Yeah, but she must

0:26:22.880 --> 0:26:24.199
<v Speaker 2>have just been going through the water at such as

0:26:24.200 --> 0:26:28.080
<v Speaker 2>speed and hit something. So that's the thing really you're

0:26:28.080 --> 0:26:30.360
<v Speaker 2>looking for. Is this something that doesn't fit you know?

0:26:31.320 --> 0:26:33.639
<v Speaker 2>And as I said, what a perfect way to hide

0:26:34.520 --> 0:26:35.879
<v Speaker 2>crimes in amongst that.

0:26:36.240 --> 0:26:39.600
<v Speaker 1>Put your body in there with the Bali bombings. What's

0:26:39.640 --> 0:26:41.679
<v Speaker 1>the effect on the body where it's caught up in

0:26:41.680 --> 0:26:42.159
<v Speaker 1>the blast.

0:26:43.760 --> 0:26:47.800
<v Speaker 2>It varies, but if a body is in the blast,

0:26:48.119 --> 0:26:52.480
<v Speaker 2>they'll have burns, but they also have characteristic sort of

0:26:52.520 --> 0:26:54.800
<v Speaker 2>internal findings. If the body is still intact, you know

0:26:55.040 --> 0:26:57.600
<v Speaker 2>where the lungs have expanded up against the chest wall.

0:26:57.760 --> 0:27:00.520
<v Speaker 2>The intestines have sort of blown out, so you can

0:27:00.640 --> 0:27:02.560
<v Speaker 2>see things to support it. But if it's if they're

0:27:02.600 --> 0:27:07.199
<v Speaker 2>close to the epicenter, basically it'll be fragmented. So they

0:27:07.240 --> 0:27:10.200
<v Speaker 2>always say that, you know, and it didn't apply in Barley,

0:27:10.200 --> 0:27:13.119
<v Speaker 2>but with suicide bombers you need to look around the

0:27:13.160 --> 0:27:15.240
<v Speaker 2>rus for half a kilometer because their head has gone.

0:27:15.440 --> 0:27:18.240
<v Speaker 1>Are you When you're going through the bodies on a

0:27:18.320 --> 0:27:21.640
<v Speaker 1>situation like that, you're also looking for the physical evidence

0:27:21.640 --> 0:27:23.280
<v Speaker 1>of support the police investigation.

0:27:23.480 --> 0:27:26.919
<v Speaker 2>You're going through looking for ordinance. And that's one of

0:27:26.960 --> 0:27:30.720
<v Speaker 2>the dangers of dv I in the sale war zone

0:27:31.080 --> 0:27:32.920
<v Speaker 2>is that the body has been booby trapped. I mean,

0:27:32.960 --> 0:27:36.600
<v Speaker 2>what better way to actually cause further problems.

0:27:36.800 --> 0:27:38.840
<v Speaker 1>Thinking about how to commit crimes again.

0:27:39.200 --> 0:27:44.920
<v Speaker 2>Not just relating, right, I must admit though the bombings

0:27:44.960 --> 0:27:48.600
<v Speaker 2>in London, I was told this by a forensic pathologist

0:27:48.720 --> 0:27:51.159
<v Speaker 2>and I don't know whether it's a pock fall, but

0:27:51.160 --> 0:27:53.880
<v Speaker 2>they've taken the bodies to a parade ground and they're

0:27:53.880 --> 0:27:57.159
<v Speaker 2>looking for a gunshot residue, and they were getting incredible

0:27:57.200 --> 0:28:01.080
<v Speaker 2>hits until I realized that a cannon had been fired

0:28:01.200 --> 0:28:03.400
<v Speaker 2>at noon every day for the last hundred years in

0:28:03.440 --> 0:28:07.160
<v Speaker 2>that quadrangle, so they had to peel that back.

0:28:07.280 --> 0:28:07.480
<v Speaker 1>Yeah.

0:28:07.680 --> 0:28:10.960
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. I also said to the fellows in England, I said,

0:28:11.040 --> 0:28:13.200
<v Speaker 2>why didn't they let a dirty blob GoF with anthrax

0:28:13.280 --> 0:28:15.000
<v Speaker 2>or something? I mean, I said, we can talk about

0:28:15.000 --> 0:28:16.840
<v Speaker 2>this because terrorist not a see. If they've done that,

0:28:16.880 --> 0:28:20.280
<v Speaker 2>we couldn't have coped. I don't understand why they just

0:28:21.000 --> 0:28:24.040
<v Speaker 2>do the one hit, not a couple. I'm pleased they don't,

0:28:24.359 --> 0:28:25.240
<v Speaker 2>but the.

0:28:25.800 --> 0:28:28.840
<v Speaker 1>Type of impact that.

0:28:27.960 --> 0:28:29.800
<v Speaker 2>Do you destroy the support worker is coming and then

0:28:29.840 --> 0:28:31.639
<v Speaker 2>you really cause the problem.

0:28:31.840 --> 0:28:36.520
<v Speaker 1>You've been in this field for the years, changes, improvements

0:28:36.560 --> 0:28:39.960
<v Speaker 1>and different things. We used to rely on facial recognition.

0:28:40.280 --> 0:28:43.600
<v Speaker 1>You can see some problems with facial recognition if you

0:28:43.680 --> 0:28:45.720
<v Speaker 1>reconstruct a face from a skeletal remain.

0:28:46.800 --> 0:28:51.280
<v Speaker 2>I think, and this is just my personal view, that

0:28:51.320 --> 0:28:56.440
<v Speaker 2>facial recognition what it does best is remind people of

0:28:56.560 --> 0:28:58.520
<v Speaker 2>memories they have of the time, so that brings in

0:28:58.680 --> 0:29:01.920
<v Speaker 2>and you would know this too, that brings extra information forward.

0:29:02.200 --> 0:29:07.320
<v Speaker 2>But when I see a face reconstruction and the skeleton,

0:29:07.480 --> 0:29:10.200
<v Speaker 2>what I have to do And apparently this has been

0:29:10.240 --> 0:29:13.800
<v Speaker 2>done as people have done studies where they've taken donated

0:29:13.800 --> 0:29:16.440
<v Speaker 2>bodies so they've got what the face looks like. They've

0:29:16.480 --> 0:29:19.480
<v Speaker 2>then taken the skull, they've given it to facial reconstruction people,

0:29:19.480 --> 0:29:21.960
<v Speaker 2>and then you compare the two. So that is something

0:29:22.200 --> 0:29:24.400
<v Speaker 2>I need to look at because I'm sure that they're

0:29:24.480 --> 0:29:27.120
<v Speaker 2>quite different. I mean, this is flash, you know, he

0:29:27.320 --> 0:29:29.800
<v Speaker 2>is hair, all that sort of stuff. Yeah, so I

0:29:29.880 --> 0:29:34.400
<v Speaker 2>think that facial recognition is sort of not as exciting

0:29:34.400 --> 0:29:36.400
<v Speaker 2>as we once thought. It was a bite marks again.

0:29:36.560 --> 0:29:37.600
<v Speaker 2>You know, you used to be able to tell an

0:29:37.640 --> 0:29:38.880
<v Speaker 2>individual from a bite mark.

0:29:39.440 --> 0:29:42.920
<v Speaker 1>Now you can't well talk about that because I've been

0:29:42.960 --> 0:29:47.000
<v Speaker 1>involved in investigations where the bites have come into play.

0:29:47.200 --> 0:29:51.400
<v Speaker 2>Ye, very hard to actually pin it to a particular person.

0:29:51.440 --> 0:29:53.160
<v Speaker 2>If it's a small bite, it's a child with large

0:29:53.160 --> 0:29:56.280
<v Speaker 2>bidet's an adult. But it really the importance of bite

0:29:56.320 --> 0:29:59.960
<v Speaker 2>marks is swabbing for saliva DNA. That's the most real.

0:30:00.680 --> 0:30:03.400
<v Speaker 2>So there are a lot of things that we used

0:30:03.440 --> 0:30:06.360
<v Speaker 2>to think were important that you know, ant is reliable.

0:30:06.600 --> 0:30:08.480
<v Speaker 2>One of the best things I find in court is

0:30:08.520 --> 0:30:10.680
<v Speaker 2>to be able to say I have no idea and

0:30:10.720 --> 0:30:13.040
<v Speaker 2>the jury, you know, will then make eye contact and

0:30:13.080 --> 0:30:17.240
<v Speaker 2>you can see them thinking, well, he's honest. So when

0:30:17.280 --> 0:30:19.200
<v Speaker 2>he does say he knows something, then we can probably trusted.

0:30:20.400 --> 0:30:24.320
<v Speaker 1>Have you seen and without the specific examples, experts at

0:30:24.400 --> 0:30:27.840
<v Speaker 1>sort of stray outside their lane of expertise in court.

0:30:28.640 --> 0:30:33.720
<v Speaker 2>Yes, your honor, And that's one of the problems is

0:30:33.720 --> 0:30:35.400
<v Speaker 2>you know people are experts because I say they are,

0:30:35.600 --> 0:30:39.520
<v Speaker 2>you know, and some people will go all over the

0:30:39.560 --> 0:30:45.000
<v Speaker 2>place with and I've had experts who have been accused

0:30:45.000 --> 0:30:46.960
<v Speaker 2>of knowing we misleading the court and it just seems

0:30:47.000 --> 0:30:50.960
<v Speaker 2>to bounce off them. I think that people like us

0:30:50.960 --> 0:30:56.440
<v Speaker 2>are in no man's land because we're prepared to say

0:30:56.440 --> 0:31:00.640
<v Speaker 2>that nothing's absolute, this is possible, and not half as

0:31:00.640 --> 0:31:02.960
<v Speaker 2>convincing as saying clearly this is the cause of death

0:31:02.960 --> 0:31:03.560
<v Speaker 2>and nothing else.

0:31:04.000 --> 0:31:08.000
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, if but you talk about credibility to like, if

0:31:08.040 --> 0:31:10.360
<v Speaker 1>you make that comment, then that other evidence comes in

0:31:10.440 --> 0:31:15.120
<v Speaker 1>that can dispel what that person's saying. Definitely happened.

0:31:15.160 --> 0:31:17.160
<v Speaker 2>You need to do so, mister, they call me mister.

0:31:17.600 --> 0:31:20.520
<v Speaker 2>They want to, you know, diminish my status in the court.

0:31:20.560 --> 0:31:27.000
<v Speaker 2>I mean my father was mister. So they dropped the professor. Yes, mister,

0:31:27.360 --> 0:31:28.400
<v Speaker 2>can you definitely exclude that?

0:31:28.680 --> 0:31:31.960
<v Speaker 1>That's Have they ever got you down to Roger? Roger?

0:31:32.000 --> 0:31:33.560
<v Speaker 2>What were you not as such?

0:31:34.040 --> 0:31:34.160
<v Speaker 1>Well?

0:31:34.440 --> 0:31:36.680
<v Speaker 2>That's outside the court. I've been called worse.

0:31:36.760 --> 0:31:41.000
<v Speaker 1>But yeah, if they're talking me up, if I'm in

0:31:41.000 --> 0:31:44.040
<v Speaker 1>the witness box, detective chief inspector, the very experienced, once

0:31:44.040 --> 0:31:45.720
<v Speaker 1>they start to talk me up, I know I'm about

0:31:45.760 --> 0:31:48.440
<v Speaker 1>to be hit, be brought down. So I imagine you

0:31:48.520 --> 0:31:51.400
<v Speaker 1>the experience experience that. What's the longest time you've spent

0:31:51.400 --> 0:31:52.240
<v Speaker 1>in the witness box.

0:31:53.080 --> 0:31:58.960
<v Speaker 2>Well, it's not chronological. The following trial, I was only

0:31:58.960 --> 0:32:00.880
<v Speaker 2>in for an afternoon, but that was a very long

0:32:00.920 --> 0:32:04.120
<v Speaker 2>afternoon probably I suppose day or two.

0:32:04.320 --> 0:32:07.280
<v Speaker 1>You know, Well, we've had we've had a guest on

0:32:07.320 --> 0:32:11.720
<v Speaker 1>that wrote the book about Catheline Folbing and what's your

0:32:11.760 --> 0:32:14.000
<v Speaker 1>take on them. It's a very complex matner. It's probably

0:32:14.000 --> 0:32:16.800
<v Speaker 1>a hard question to yeah, for you to answer, but

0:32:16.880 --> 0:32:19.480
<v Speaker 1>just in your area of involvement in the matter.

0:32:19.680 --> 0:32:22.680
<v Speaker 2>Well, I appeared for the defense back in two thousand

0:32:22.680 --> 0:32:25.440
<v Speaker 2>and three, and I've always said that I think there

0:32:25.520 --> 0:32:30.520
<v Speaker 2>was reasonable doubt. I think all four kids had significan

0:32:30.520 --> 0:32:35.080
<v Speaker 2>potentially significant conditions. Caleb had a soft larynx, he was

0:32:35.120 --> 0:32:39.440
<v Speaker 2>having trouble breathing. Patrick was epileptic. Sarah had a very

0:32:39.480 --> 0:32:42.560
<v Speaker 2>strange shape at the back of her soft Palette and

0:32:42.640 --> 0:32:46.360
<v Speaker 2>Laura had my carditis. So I mean people now looking

0:32:46.360 --> 0:32:50.640
<v Speaker 2>at this genetic material. For me, I don't need genetics

0:32:50.680 --> 0:32:54.240
<v Speaker 2>to say there was no evidence of inflicted suffocation and

0:32:54.320 --> 0:32:56.880
<v Speaker 2>that they had conditions that could potentially kill them. Could

0:32:56.880 --> 0:32:59.080
<v Speaker 2>they been suffocated, yes, they could, but they also could

0:32:59.120 --> 0:33:02.920
<v Speaker 2>have died of this. I think there was always reasonable doubt.

0:33:03.040 --> 0:33:08.800
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, and that's a thing that's played out. It's a

0:33:08.800 --> 0:33:09.760
<v Speaker 1>fascinating case, but.

0:33:09.840 --> 0:33:10.600
<v Speaker 2>It's a tragic case.

0:33:10.680 --> 0:33:10.880
<v Speaker 1>Yeah.

0:33:11.840 --> 0:33:15.800
<v Speaker 2>No matter which side you're on, you've got four dead, lovely.

0:33:15.640 --> 0:33:21.760
<v Speaker 1>Children, no one, no one wins. You've talked about in

0:33:22.480 --> 0:33:25.200
<v Speaker 1>the views that you've done a right to mourn and

0:33:26.600 --> 0:33:28.640
<v Speaker 1>talk us through that, because we're getting deep into the

0:33:28.680 --> 0:33:31.120
<v Speaker 1>emotional side of the type of crime that you've done.

0:33:31.160 --> 0:33:32.560
<v Speaker 1>And my observation.

0:33:34.080 --> 0:33:35.160
<v Speaker 2>I've observed.

0:33:37.960 --> 0:33:40.200
<v Speaker 1>Slip, So what other crimes if you've done, I'll just

0:33:40.200 --> 0:33:43.440
<v Speaker 1>start cautioning you. But my observation, you've kept your sense

0:33:43.440 --> 0:33:45.920
<v Speaker 1>of humor. You've seen a lot of darkness in life,

0:33:46.280 --> 0:33:49.240
<v Speaker 1>and you also talk about the right to mourn, that

0:33:49.400 --> 0:33:52.400
<v Speaker 1>there's nothing wrong with mourning and feeling the pain that

0:33:53.080 --> 0:33:55.640
<v Speaker 1>the things you've seen. Talk us through through your thinking there.

0:33:55.520 --> 0:33:57.960
<v Speaker 2>Well, I think anybody exposed the tragedy needs to mourn.

0:33:58.400 --> 0:34:00.400
<v Speaker 2>He has said if you if you don't, then I

0:34:00.400 --> 0:34:05.960
<v Speaker 2>think that you're knowingly or unwittingly just cutting yourself off

0:34:06.160 --> 0:34:11.800
<v Speaker 2>from an important part of emotional processes. The reason I've survived,

0:34:11.840 --> 0:34:15.720
<v Speaker 2>I think, is because I understand how important these deaths

0:34:15.719 --> 0:34:19.959
<v Speaker 2>are the families in the community, and it's something I think.

0:34:20.480 --> 0:34:23.720
<v Speaker 2>Forensic pathology is more than just dissection and report writing.

0:34:24.239 --> 0:34:27.520
<v Speaker 2>It should be integrating into the community to help people.

0:34:28.880 --> 0:34:33.840
<v Speaker 2>And that's It's bizarre though, the cases that get through,

0:34:34.239 --> 0:34:36.839
<v Speaker 2>And I don't know how we do it in the police.

0:34:36.880 --> 0:34:39.560
<v Speaker 2>I don't know how we actually we're not taught to

0:34:39.640 --> 0:34:42.400
<v Speaker 2>warl ourselves off, but we do somehow. But some cases

0:34:42.440 --> 0:34:45.600
<v Speaker 2>just I remember there was a case of a he

0:34:47.160 --> 0:34:49.640
<v Speaker 2>was an execution of one of the biker gangs, and

0:34:49.680 --> 0:34:54.239
<v Speaker 2>he committed suicide on a lonely beach and I was

0:34:54.280 --> 0:34:56.759
<v Speaker 2>sitting there with my wife that night and she said,

0:34:56.760 --> 0:34:59.200
<v Speaker 2>what's wrong with you? I said, really really upset about

0:34:59.200 --> 0:35:04.120
<v Speaker 2>this case. But you see murdered children, you see this,

0:35:04.120 --> 0:35:06.480
<v Speaker 2>this and this. I don't know. There was just something

0:35:06.520 --> 0:35:10.120
<v Speaker 2>about this that got to me. It's very strange.

0:35:10.320 --> 0:35:13.319
<v Speaker 1>It's interesting isn't it. Is there something particular about that,

0:35:13.360 --> 0:35:16.200
<v Speaker 1>because given all the things that you've seen, I'm just

0:35:16.239 --> 0:35:18.080
<v Speaker 1>wondering why that sort of jump jumped out.

0:35:18.480 --> 0:35:20.200
<v Speaker 2>I don't know. I talked about it with my wife

0:35:20.200 --> 0:35:24.480
<v Speaker 2>and we wonder whether it was because he was a

0:35:24.520 --> 0:35:27.600
<v Speaker 2>bloke about my age and he'd gone to this isolated

0:35:27.640 --> 0:35:29.640
<v Speaker 2>beach that was very like some of the beaches I

0:35:29.760 --> 0:35:31.600
<v Speaker 2>used to go to as a kid in Tasmania. So

0:35:31.680 --> 0:35:34.000
<v Speaker 2>they just seemed to be a lonely poignancy to it.

0:35:34.080 --> 0:35:38.400
<v Speaker 2>But yeah, it may be that it was just somebody

0:35:38.400 --> 0:35:39.680
<v Speaker 2>strangely I could identify with.

0:35:40.520 --> 0:35:44.920
<v Speaker 1>It's interesting how different cases have different different impacts. What

0:35:45.000 --> 0:35:47.560
<v Speaker 1>about your faith in society?

0:35:47.800 --> 0:35:48.480
<v Speaker 2>I like dogs?

0:35:48.880 --> 0:35:50.680
<v Speaker 1>Okay, what about killer dogs?

0:35:53.640 --> 0:35:59.400
<v Speaker 2>Killer dogs are usually the product of killer owners. You know,

0:35:59.480 --> 0:36:01.840
<v Speaker 2>if you treat a dog badly, it'll.

0:36:01.400 --> 0:36:04.840
<v Speaker 1>Be well, you see the most terrifying looking dogs and

0:36:04.880 --> 0:36:08.600
<v Speaker 1>they're placid them. That comes down to the owner generally.

0:36:08.680 --> 0:36:12.440
<v Speaker 1>But have you seen many situations of dogs that have killed.

0:36:12.719 --> 0:36:15.319
<v Speaker 2>I've seen a few. There was a fascinating case in

0:36:15.360 --> 0:36:18.480
<v Speaker 2>Canada that I wasn't involved with, but the pathologist who

0:36:18.520 --> 0:36:21.040
<v Speaker 2>did the autopsy said the child had been a stab

0:36:21.120 --> 0:36:26.399
<v Speaker 2>with scissors and the mother went to jail and there

0:36:26.480 --> 0:36:28.000
<v Speaker 2>was a pitbull in the house that actually had a

0:36:28.000 --> 0:36:33.000
<v Speaker 2>bloodstained in front. Subsequently came out and it was a

0:36:33.000 --> 0:36:35.960
<v Speaker 2>dog attack. He just got it completely wrong. But there

0:36:35.960 --> 0:36:37.400
<v Speaker 2>are certain breeze yes, you know. I mean, I've got

0:36:37.440 --> 0:36:38.879
<v Speaker 2>a golden a Trita. I don't think it's been one

0:36:38.880 --> 0:36:42.080
<v Speaker 2>report of Golden A Tria licking somebody, leah.

0:36:42.320 --> 0:36:45.120
<v Speaker 1>But anyway, before we got off on the dog track

0:36:45.680 --> 0:36:46.960
<v Speaker 1>a society.

0:36:47.560 --> 0:36:53.520
<v Speaker 2>I'm worried. I think that a couple of reasons. Methamphetamine

0:36:53.640 --> 0:36:56.200
<v Speaker 2>is everywhere, as you know, that that's a toxic drug

0:36:56.520 --> 0:37:00.080
<v Speaker 2>and it just destroys people. And we've done studies showing

0:37:00.120 --> 0:37:04.400
<v Speaker 2>the percentage of meth with homicide victims and homicide perpetrators,

0:37:04.440 --> 0:37:07.279
<v Speaker 2>and as you know, it's very high. Also, I think

0:37:07.320 --> 0:37:13.680
<v Speaker 2>that the Internet trivializes violence. You have kids just watching

0:37:13.680 --> 0:37:15.719
<v Speaker 2>this stuff and they think that this is normal. Some

0:37:15.760 --> 0:37:21.759
<v Speaker 2>of those computer games are outrageous. You know, they train

0:37:22.400 --> 0:37:25.640
<v Speaker 2>troops now on computer games when they're taking out soldiers

0:37:25.640 --> 0:37:27.200
<v Speaker 2>and stuff. So it's the same process.

0:37:27.320 --> 0:37:30.000
<v Speaker 1>You can embedd it in the actions and the thing.

0:37:31.239 --> 0:37:34.920
<v Speaker 2>I think it just it makes quite violent horrific acts

0:37:35.239 --> 0:37:35.840
<v Speaker 2>seem normal.

0:37:36.280 --> 0:37:39.719
<v Speaker 1>No interesting, interesting take on that than what you've said

0:37:39.760 --> 0:37:42.760
<v Speaker 1>about the drugs too, And I would imagine that you've

0:37:42.840 --> 0:37:45.040
<v Speaker 1>done some post more thans and seen the results of

0:37:45.160 --> 0:37:46.960
<v Speaker 1>heavy use of drugs.

0:37:47.200 --> 0:37:51.120
<v Speaker 2>And I was walking past a group of houses in

0:37:51.160 --> 0:37:53.640
<v Speaker 2>my neighborhood just around the corner the other night, and

0:37:53.680 --> 0:37:57.600
<v Speaker 2>the fellow the allegations of myth selling there, and there

0:37:57.640 --> 0:37:59.720
<v Speaker 2>was a fellow inside who'd broken down the doors and stuff.

0:38:00.640 --> 0:38:03.080
<v Speaker 2>That was nine o'clock on Saturday night. By six o'clock

0:38:03.120 --> 0:38:04.799
<v Speaker 2>the next morning, he had murdered the bloke in the park.

0:38:06.560 --> 0:38:07.520
<v Speaker 1>No role or reason.

0:38:08.480 --> 0:38:11.360
<v Speaker 2>So it's everywhere now, Okay.

0:38:12.719 --> 0:38:15.920
<v Speaker 1>I think I mentioned Guardians of the Dead, a seven

0:38:16.000 --> 0:38:19.080
<v Speaker 1>part podcast series that you did. How did you get

0:38:19.120 --> 0:38:19.799
<v Speaker 1>involved in that.

0:38:20.120 --> 0:38:22.640
<v Speaker 2>One of the media people, Lisa Black at the university,

0:38:22.840 --> 0:38:26.360
<v Speaker 2>was interested in forensics and we just got chatting one

0:38:26.440 --> 0:38:28.680
<v Speaker 2>day and she said, well, you know, the local paper

0:38:28.760 --> 0:38:31.640
<v Speaker 2>might be interested in doing a podcast. I'd done a

0:38:31.680 --> 0:38:35.640
<v Speaker 2>full podcast. We just sat down and chatted about stuff

0:38:35.640 --> 0:38:39.160
<v Speaker 2>that I'd done and seen, and it was an interesting process.

0:38:39.440 --> 0:38:44.320
<v Speaker 2>I find getting involved with the media and assemblitting information interesting,

0:38:44.320 --> 0:38:47.040
<v Speaker 2>you know, whether it's film or whether it's radio or whatever.

0:38:47.120 --> 0:38:50.239
<v Speaker 2>So it's just something different to do that I think

0:38:50.320 --> 0:38:51.080
<v Speaker 2>can be useful.

0:38:51.480 --> 0:38:55.120
<v Speaker 1>Well, I think that ken, then it's not glorifying, not

0:38:55.160 --> 0:39:00.920
<v Speaker 1>glorifying crime. You're explaining, explaining situations in preparation for this podcast,

0:39:00.960 --> 0:39:04.040
<v Speaker 1>I think I said to you before we start, I

0:39:04.080 --> 0:39:06.120
<v Speaker 1>sat down to listen just to get a sense of

0:39:06.280 --> 0:39:08.960
<v Speaker 1>what you're about, and I listened to all episodes.

0:39:09.000 --> 0:39:11.239
<v Speaker 2>So and as I said, you need to get out,

0:39:11.480 --> 0:39:12.680
<v Speaker 2>I probably shouldn't.

0:39:12.920 --> 0:39:16.720
<v Speaker 1>I probably shouldn't be talking up on the podcast big

0:39:17.480 --> 0:39:20.239
<v Speaker 1>sitting here here doing my own podcast, But yeah, it was.

0:39:20.400 --> 0:39:22.520
<v Speaker 1>It was fascinating. And what I did like about it

0:39:22.719 --> 0:39:26.239
<v Speaker 1>that you take on that because quite often you could

0:39:26.239 --> 0:39:29.040
<v Speaker 1>be called an academic, but you've also got that let's.

0:39:28.880 --> 0:39:30.399
<v Speaker 2>Say, how do you well?

0:39:31.239 --> 0:39:33.600
<v Speaker 1>Academic can be a compliment, but it can also be

0:39:33.640 --> 0:39:37.160
<v Speaker 1>said if it said with the right tone. But you're

0:39:37.160 --> 0:39:39.600
<v Speaker 1>explain it in layman's terms. And I think that's important

0:39:39.640 --> 0:39:42.440
<v Speaker 1>because quite often science puts itself up up there that

0:39:43.640 --> 0:39:45.320
<v Speaker 1>you don't need to know. We're not going to explain

0:39:45.320 --> 0:39:47.160
<v Speaker 1>it to the common person, but you've got a way

0:39:47.160 --> 0:39:49.160
<v Speaker 1>of explaining what you come across.

0:39:49.320 --> 0:39:53.440
<v Speaker 2>My philosophy is if you can't explain something simply to somebody,

0:39:53.560 --> 0:39:55.040
<v Speaker 2>then you don't understand it yourself.

0:39:55.400 --> 0:39:57.960
<v Speaker 1>Yeah. Yeah, that's a good way of looking at I'll

0:39:58.000 --> 0:40:00.399
<v Speaker 1>think of that next time the computer per and comes

0:40:00.400 --> 0:40:03.520
<v Speaker 1>out to fix my computer. I don't care.

0:40:03.560 --> 0:40:06.880
<v Speaker 2>Why just fix it and don't don't change that.

0:40:08.000 --> 0:40:09.399
<v Speaker 1>What are you doing with yourself? Now?

0:40:10.200 --> 0:40:13.400
<v Speaker 2>Still working halftime at Forgics. So I'm on call in

0:40:13.440 --> 0:40:18.600
<v Speaker 2>a couple of weeks time, but winding back. Actually, yeah,

0:40:18.840 --> 0:40:22.040
<v Speaker 2>I've I got I had a goal to get a

0:40:22.080 --> 0:40:23.799
<v Speaker 2>thousand peer reviewed papers, and I got that a couple

0:40:23.840 --> 0:40:26.319
<v Speaker 2>of weeks ago. Yeah, so that was I mean, it's

0:40:26.320 --> 0:40:28.560
<v Speaker 2>it's like a golf handicap. Who cares except yourself, But

0:40:28.600 --> 0:40:30.400
<v Speaker 2>you know it was important to me.

0:40:31.600 --> 0:40:35.080
<v Speaker 1>You're you're under underplane your success and you're standing within

0:40:35.160 --> 0:40:38.680
<v Speaker 1>the field that you've operated into a lot of awards

0:40:38.680 --> 0:40:40.560
<v Speaker 1>and different things. So full credit to you.

0:40:40.800 --> 0:40:41.200
<v Speaker 2>Thank you.

0:40:42.200 --> 0:40:44.000
<v Speaker 1>I've enjoyed. I've enjoyed the chat.

0:40:44.280 --> 0:40:45.319
<v Speaker 2>I wish I could say the same.

0:40:47.200 --> 0:40:49.280
<v Speaker 1>Maybe you're not that funny. I thought you were funny,

0:40:49.280 --> 0:40:53.319
<v Speaker 1>but maybe maybe you're not. Maybe you are a horrible Roger. Look,

0:40:53.360 --> 0:40:55.319
<v Speaker 1>I'd like to thank you for not just coming on

0:40:55.320 --> 0:40:57.399
<v Speaker 1>the podcast, but also for the work that you've done,

0:40:57.640 --> 0:41:00.719
<v Speaker 1>and because I know it's difficult work and doing it

0:41:00.760 --> 0:41:03.560
<v Speaker 1>with compassion. I think that's so important. I saw that

0:41:03.640 --> 0:41:05.920
<v Speaker 1>in the homicide, and if people didn't have that empathy

0:41:05.920 --> 0:41:09.120
<v Speaker 1>and compassion, they do cause more damage to people that

0:41:09.160 --> 0:41:12.879
<v Speaker 1>shouldn't be damaged any further. And you've kept your sense

0:41:12.880 --> 0:41:15.800
<v Speaker 1>of humor and you seem seemed like quite a reasonable person.

0:41:15.960 --> 0:41:20.040
<v Speaker 2>That's the medication, all right. Thanks Roger,