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Speaker 1: The public has had a long held fascination with detectives.

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Speaker 1: Detective sy aside of life, the average person is never

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Speaker 1: exposed her I spent thirty four years as a cop.

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Speaker 1: For twenty five of those years I was catching killers.

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Speaker 1: That's what I did for a living. I was a

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Speaker 1: homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead,

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Speaker 1: I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated.

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Speaker 1: The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories

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Speaker 1: from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw

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Speaker 1: and honest, just like the people I talk to. Some

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Speaker 1: of the content and language might be confronting. That's because

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Speaker 1: no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged.

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Speaker 1: Join me now as I take you into this world.

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Speaker 1: In part two of my chat with forensic pathologists Professor

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Speaker 1: of Roger by Art, we discuss the murder of twenty

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Speaker 1: one year old Jasmine Kor, who is buried alive, the

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Speaker 1: horrors of the Boxing Day tsunami, and the Balley bombings.

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Speaker 1: We also talked about the work Roger does that prevents

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Speaker 1: death and how Roger looks at the way we deal

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Speaker 1: with death. Roger, You've seen so much death, and I

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Speaker 1: was interested in a quote from yourself, and I'll just

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Speaker 1: read it out and get you to comment on that

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Speaker 1: if you could. I think that recognizing death as part

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Speaker 1: of life, as a transition is really important. It's something

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Speaker 1: we fail these days. We sanitize it. What do you

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Speaker 1: mean by those quotes.

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Speaker 2: We're frightened of death nowadays? I mean we've always been

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Speaker 2: frightened to death. But in the old days, I think

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Speaker 2: there was a lot more acceptance of death as part

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Speaker 2: of life. A lot of children died of diseases, and

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Speaker 2: the bodies weren't just whisked away and you know, cremated.

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Speaker 2: You'd lay the body out and have a wake. You'd

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Speaker 2: celebrate the person's existence. In the nineteenth century leads to

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Speaker 2: take photographs of the you, mum and dad dressed up

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Speaker 2: and the baby dead in a coffin as a memento.

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Speaker 2: And that's not creepy. That is just remember, bring the

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Speaker 2: person so that you've got some sort of token to

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Speaker 2: take with you. Whereas we just we don't talk about it.

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Speaker 2: We're more and more frightened of it. Whereas it is

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Speaker 2: part of life, it's going to happen to us all.

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Speaker 2: I went to a writer's Week in Adelaide, and they

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Speaker 2: were talking about death and they just weren't getting it.

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Speaker 2: And I just said, the last time I was in

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Speaker 2: the tent as big as this, as hot as this,

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Speaker 2: with as many bodies, it was Thailand, the tsunami, and

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Speaker 2: they're all dead, I said. And the tires had a

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Speaker 2: very The monks would wander around the bodies at night, chanting,

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Speaker 2: helping them on their paths. So there was an acceptance

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Speaker 2: that they could actually commemorate these people, which is something

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Speaker 2: we don't do.

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Speaker 1: And do you think that has a detrimental effect to

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Speaker 1: the way we deal with death? And I think so.

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Speaker 2: I think it's just we're becoming more and more sanitized

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Speaker 2: and more and more closed off. We're closing off from

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Speaker 2: human interaction with our computers and social media. Just the

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Speaker 2: I see people down the beach with their dog when

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Speaker 2: I take my dog for a walk, and they've got

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Speaker 2: headphones on. I mean, why not stand hard? You know,

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Speaker 2: what's the point of being down there? And they're not.

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Speaker 2: They're just focused on what they're listening to, probably your podcast.

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Speaker 1: Well, I was going to say, the one proviser there,

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Speaker 1: if I catch kill this podcast, they're doing well, But yeah,

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Speaker 1: I know what you're saying, and the fact that the

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Speaker 1: sanitized it where we're more aware of death and now

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Speaker 1: I look at it, it just gets push pushed away.

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Speaker 1: So in the work that you did, do you have

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Speaker 1: your colleagues that would support support the people that you

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Speaker 1: worked with, because I know in the homicide world sometimes

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Speaker 1: I couldn't go home and talk about what we've seen

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Speaker 1: or done that your colleagues you do brief Did you

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Speaker 1: have that support from colleagues.

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Speaker 2: It's interesting. We were talking earlier just about how you

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Speaker 2: deal with cases, and you know, I was saying, you

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Speaker 2: focus on the science. I remember one case of a

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Speaker 2: little boy who had been punched by the de facto boyfriend,

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Speaker 2: and this fellow had actually videoed this little boy dying,

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Speaker 2: that's how bad it was. But when I opened his abdomen,

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Speaker 2: I got this stench of you know, rotting parisanaitis, and

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Speaker 2: I brought tears in my eyes. I was just leaning

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Speaker 2: over and I was sort of just I had to

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Speaker 2: actually put that behind me. I was seeing the big picture.

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Speaker 2: I had to focus on what I was doing. And

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Speaker 2: what had happened is that he'd been punched really forcefully

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Speaker 2: and his intestines had ruptured, so they'd torn, so all

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Speaker 2: the contents gets into the abdominal cavity causes this really

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Speaker 2: vile inflammatory action, and so that was the smell and

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Speaker 2: talking to my colleagues as well. When I had Jasmine

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Speaker 2: and I found all the soil and the upper airway,

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Speaker 2: I called my colleagues in to have a look at it,

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Speaker 2: and they still told me that they're shattered by just

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Speaker 2: just seeing that. But we it's like soldiers in the trenches,

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Speaker 2: like police. You know your colleagues know what you're going through,

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Speaker 2: and you can talk to them. I went to see

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Speaker 2: a counselor after Jasmine. The manager said, you really need

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Speaker 2: to get this scene too, because I was I was

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Speaker 2: going to bed at night thinking over I was waking

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Speaker 2: up in the morning and at the end of the

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Speaker 2: council said, I said, well, you know, I just wanted

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Speaker 2: some techniques of getting this out of my head. And

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Speaker 2: she said, it's very difficult, isn't it. You told me

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Speaker 2: something I don't know.

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Speaker 1: You've mentioned that Jazz main call and obviously it plays

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Speaker 1: on you pretty heavily. Can you tell us about that case?

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Speaker 1: The details of that case.

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Speaker 2: I can because it's gone through the courts, And he

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Speaker 2: pleaded guilty. So she was a really lovely young Punjabi

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Speaker 2: woman who's working in a nursing home and she'd had

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Speaker 2: a relationship with a young Indian fellow and had told

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Speaker 2: him very nicely that she liked him, but he wasn't

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Speaker 2: the one for her, and so he just flipped out

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Speaker 2: and the day before went to Bunnings on CTV footage

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Speaker 2: buying cable ties a shovel. It was so well thought out,

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Speaker 2: was so stupid. He gave a mate his car with

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Speaker 2: his phone in it to go south when he was

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Speaker 2: kidnapping her from her workplace, tied up, put her in

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Speaker 2: the boot, drove around for five hours. Yeah, and a

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Speaker 2: lot of terror for her. Imagine what it was like

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Speaker 2: five hours in the boot, and then took her up

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Speaker 2: north and dug her grave and put her in it

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Speaker 2: and buried her alive. It's most horrific thing that I've

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Speaker 2: ever come across.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm just comprehending what you've.

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Speaker 2: I'm outraged by it. Yeah, there were no drugs. She

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Speaker 2: did never hit injury, so she was completely conscious.

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Speaker 1: The examination when you examined her body, did you find

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Speaker 1: this out at the time.

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Speaker 2: Well, it's interesting because she had some cuts on the

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Speaker 2: side of her neck that I thought, as I said,

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Speaker 2: were the cause her death. But then we found the

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Speaker 2: soil and yes.

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Speaker 1: It was just then the soul was in her.

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Speaker 2: In her right down into her, and she also swallowed

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Speaker 2: some as well. It's the only time I've been to

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Speaker 2: a sentencing because I didn't get a chance to see

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Speaker 2: him in court because he pleaded guilty. So I wanted

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Speaker 2: to actually just look at him and just see what

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Speaker 2: sort of monster this was. And he looks so ordinary,

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Speaker 2: He looks so bernal, you.

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Speaker 1: Know, and that's funny. But that can freak you out

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Speaker 1: more than if you're looking for this monster.

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Speaker 2: I want to see Charles Manson, Yeah, that would have

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Speaker 2: made you want to see that understandable.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, what is it about that particular case that stuck

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Speaker 1: with you so heavily.

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Speaker 2: I think that she was just such a sweet, young,

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Speaker 2: innocent She was over here, she only had a mum

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Speaker 2: in India. She was staying with her uncles, so he

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Speaker 2: would feel responsibility for it. Her mother's lost her only child.

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Speaker 2: It's just there's nothing good about that story.

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Speaker 1: Now I can what can you say? She had come

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Speaker 1: from India, But you did some interesting work again, horrific

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Speaker 1: work stemming from a conference that you attended over in

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Speaker 1: India and you came into contact with someone about the

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Speaker 1: acid attacks on women in India.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, pret Core is a she's a PhD lawyer, academic

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Speaker 2: and she co founded the Lasmi Foundation, which is a

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Speaker 2: foundation for acid attack victims. And acid attacks are very

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Speaker 2: common in India. Acid so furry gasid particularly is very cheap.

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Speaker 2: They use it in the cleaning drains, they use it

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Speaker 2: for cleaning equipment. And it's usually a spurned lover or

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Speaker 2: a jealous male and to get his revenge, he throws

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Speaker 2: acid on these young women's faces. Only four percent of

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Speaker 2: them die, but they're completely disfigured. They often go blind

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Speaker 2: because their eyes have been burnt. They can't breathe because

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Speaker 2: their nose is gone. They can't hear because the ear

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Speaker 2: canals are gone. They may have tremendous deformity, so they

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Speaker 2: can't speak or eat properly. They look horrific. So this

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Speaker 2: person has condemned them to a life of suffering pain

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Speaker 2: medical procedures. Sometimes their families shun them because they can't

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Speaker 2: afford to support them, or they just don't want them

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Speaker 2: as part of the family.

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Speaker 1: Shun the victim.

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Speaker 2: I wanted to do a study with Navpret on the

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Speaker 2: suicide rate in these women, but of course there's no

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Speaker 2: data there. But what these organizations are doing, like the

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Speaker 2: Laxmi Foundation, they've got a Shiro's Cafe in Agra. These

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Speaker 2: young women actually front the cafe. They serve and they

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Speaker 2: work there and they put themselves right out in front

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Speaker 2: of you know, it's remarkable. I did meet the young

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Speaker 2: woman need To who was the subject of a film

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Speaker 2: as a director in Melbourne, who did this film called

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Speaker 2: Geta because kneed To, Her sister and her mother were

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Speaker 2: asset attacked by her father because there were no boys

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Speaker 2: in the family and knit Too's got tremendous scarngh a

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Speaker 2: very poor vision, but it's interesting. Aw for about half

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Speaker 2: an hour with her, you don't see the scars.

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Speaker 1: You know.

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Speaker 2: Resilience is a word that's abused. She is one of

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Speaker 2: the most resilient people I've known. And again it comes

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Speaker 2: back to why you do forensic pathology. It's such a

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Speaker 2: privilege to be able to meet with these people and

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Speaker 2: to try and help. So what Gravpret and I do

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Speaker 2: is we've written a number of papers for the medical

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Speaker 2: community on asset attacks on dowry deaths, you know, people

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Speaker 2: being murdered for their dowries, on child labor, all sorts

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Speaker 2: of sort of human rights abuses that occurring in India. Now,

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Speaker 2: what right do I have to do to do that?

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Speaker 2: Navpret's got the information and we work together very well

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Speaker 2: disseminating it, letting people.

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Speaker 1: Know, okay, to get that get that story out again.

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Speaker 1: Preventative And how prevalent is it?

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Speaker 2: Like extremely prevalent. There are thousands of cases of this

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Speaker 2: in Pakistan and Bangladesh and India, and it happens all

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Speaker 2: over the world. It's in the UK it's called face

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Speaker 2: melting and it's often often rival gangs who do it

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Speaker 2: to each other. So bloke, So it's not it doesn't

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Speaker 2: have that sort of sexual element.

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Speaker 1: No, it's brutal.

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Speaker 2: It's it's a palling.

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Speaker 1: The fact that it's happening over in India. So prevalent

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Speaker 1: there is it almost a cultural thing that the education

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Speaker 1: you've you've got to change the narrative.

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Speaker 2: That's exactly right. And what navpreta since they go around

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Speaker 2: the schools and she once sent me a text and

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Speaker 2: it would I like to write a paper about menstruation?

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Speaker 2: So I texted back in two pico seconds. No, but

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Speaker 2: then she started telling me that you eighteen percent of

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Speaker 2: women in India have access to sanitary products. They're using

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Speaker 2: newspapers and leaves, and so we wrote that paper to

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Speaker 2: draw attention to it so that the authorities can then

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Speaker 2: do thing. I mean, the boys and girls don't have

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Speaker 2: separate toilets, but they are going to the schools and

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Speaker 2: they're trying to educate the youth, because that's the way

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Speaker 2: to go about just treating people with respect and giving

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Speaker 2: people a go.

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Speaker 1: Roger, where do you find the time and the passion

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Speaker 1: to pursue these things?

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Speaker 2: Well, I don't sleep, okay, well's yeah, no, I've worked out.

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Speaker 2: Actually recently, I've worked more than sixty hours a week

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Speaker 2: for four decades. I'm a bit tired.

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Speaker 1: You can happen that after we've finish. Happened that. But look,

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Speaker 1: if you're doing a job that you're passionate about, it's

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Speaker 1: not like working.

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Speaker 2: It's not working. That's what my boss is to say.

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Speaker 2: If they pay you for doing stuff you like, then

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Speaker 2: you know you win.

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Speaker 1: Have there been any good role models that you've learned

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Speaker 1: a lot from.

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Speaker 2: A couple not pathologists actually, but my first mentor in

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Speaker 2: Ottawa when I was training in pathology was a blow

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Speaker 2: called Irving Dartik. I did research term with him and

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Speaker 2: he said, you know what I want is I want

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Speaker 2: my students to do better than me, and he meant that.

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Speaker 2: And another fellow Grant Sutherland, he's a geneticist. He climbed

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Speaker 2: the fragile extremee. I personally think he was in line

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Speaker 2: for a Nobel prize. But once he had achieved what

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Speaker 2: he wanted to achieve, he retired and started up a

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Speaker 2: small farm. A man very happy with himself. But also

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Speaker 2: just shows you you don't have to be toxic to

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Speaker 2: get to the top. You know, if you treat people properly,

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Speaker 2: you can still mentor people and encourage people. And that's

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Speaker 2: the way, and that's those two are being great.

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Speaker 1: It's good to have those type of role models or

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Speaker 1: people that you can learn things from. What's the messaging

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Speaker 1: you give when you're teaching people that are starting out

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Speaker 1: in the field that you're worked in. What's the type

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Speaker 1: of message you would pass.

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Speaker 2: On give up now you've got a chance. No, I

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Speaker 2: tell them that it's if you're going to do You've

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Speaker 2: only got one shot at life. And so you know,

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Speaker 2: you've got to do stuff that you enjoy doing, and

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Speaker 2: that's important. I mean, it may be flower ranging, if

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Speaker 2: it's important to you and you do it well, excellent.

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Speaker 2: My boss's retired now in forensics, so he hadn't written

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Speaker 2: a paper in his life, but he's a very good fisherman,

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Speaker 2: and so I respected his fishing prowss.

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Speaker 1: You know.

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Speaker 2: So it doesn't matter what you do, just as long

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Speaker 2: as you do it with enjoyment.

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Speaker 1: Is compassion an important part of the type of work

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Speaker 1: that you do.

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Speaker 2: I think, yes, you've got to have credibility and you've

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Speaker 2: got to have compassion. If you don't feel the need

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Speaker 2: to help people, then you should be in something else.

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Speaker 2: And I think this is part of the problem with medicine.

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Speaker 2: It's one of the reasons I got out of clinical medicine.

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Speaker 2: It's becoming a bit of a factory, you know, to

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Speaker 2: make a few extra bucks to put your kids from

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Speaker 2: your third family through private school and buy another Mercedes.

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Speaker 2: You well, not not using caricat.

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Speaker 1: I understand exactly what you're saying, but credibility and compassion,

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Speaker 1: you do need that combination. Because I think we've all

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Speaker 1: gone to get medical advice and there's someone that they've

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Speaker 1: got the academic skills, they've got the science, but the

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Speaker 1: delivery of the message is yeah, it's not what I need.

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Speaker 1: If someone's are the important part talking about their health

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Speaker 1: or their future, you need someone that's got the compassion

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Speaker 1: understanding then can deliver the message. Because I think the

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Speaker 1: days are going where we put the same for policing,

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Speaker 1: but for doctors, where they're put on the pedestal and

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Speaker 1: we never question. You go see your local doctor growing

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Speaker 1: up and Okay, that's what the doctor said, that's what

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Speaker 1: you do. But it's readily available on the internet that

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Speaker 1: doctor Google. Well, doctor Google diagnosed yourself, so they can question.

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Speaker 1: But you need that communication skill.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I agree.

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Speaker 1: I'm going to talk about the two thousand and four tsunami,

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Speaker 1: which Asian tsunami. I remember it was a horrific, horrific

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Speaker 1: day and hundreds of thousands of people were killed as

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Speaker 1: a result of that. What was your role in responding

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Speaker 1: to that.

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Speaker 2: I didn't think i'd be asked to go, but I

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Speaker 2: went in the second rotation, so I was there in

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Speaker 2: the second week. And essentially because of the AFP's experience

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Speaker 2: with Australian Federal Police experience with the balley bombings. The

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Speaker 2: ties were working with them. The ties were excellent. They

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Speaker 2: really did an amazing job. But essentially, teams would come

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Speaker 2: over basically the body to be brought in. You would

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Speaker 2: do examinations, not full autopsies, just adult male tattoo, dental examination,

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Speaker 2: DNA fingerprints, and then compare it to people who are

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Speaker 2: known to be in the area. Part of the problem

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Speaker 2: is I wrote a paper and I called it DVII

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Speaker 2: tourism because so many teams arrive around the world, around

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Speaker 2: the world, and you know, they have to be accommodated,

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Speaker 2: they have to be fed. Sometimes their language is not English.

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Speaker 2: So you know, I always said, when I was on

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Speaker 2: the state, dv I commit the first thing I would

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Speaker 2: do is put signs around the state saying keep out.

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Speaker 2: Take forty eight hours just to work out how we

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Speaker 2: were going to do it. Processes, yeah, hasten slowly.

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Speaker 1: Because I'm trying to comprehend. And if you could paint

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Speaker 1: a picture, you know, when we're talking hundreds of thousands

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Speaker 1: of people killed, and yeah, we all saw the images

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Speaker 1: of the waves washing in the floods and the sharp

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Speaker 1: metal floating around that people drowning. People have horrendous injuries.

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Speaker 1: It's in the tropics, so a body is going to

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Speaker 1: decompose very quickly. I would imagine what were the processes

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Speaker 1: that were put in place to and the purpose of

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Speaker 1: it was to identify as many people. That's correct, you

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Speaker 1: weren't going there. This person died specifically that it was

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Speaker 1: identifying the bodies. So what were the processes that were

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Speaker 1: put in.

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Speaker 2: Place identifying and repatriating. Well, in Thailand, the bodies were

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Speaker 2: brought into Buddhist temples because they had space to put containers,

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Speaker 2: freeze and frozen containers, and the the Thai troops volunteered

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Speaker 2: to work on it, so you'd have the bodies and

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Speaker 2: the containers. They'd be wheeled out. They were spraying all

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Speaker 2: this stuff around to reduce decomposition and everything. And my

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Speaker 2: mortuary tendant was really worried about this stuff and I said,

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Speaker 2: I don't worry about it's probably water. And he said

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Speaker 2: one day said look, the naggots are dead. And I said, oh,

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Speaker 2: nothing kills makets. You can freeze them. And so I

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Speaker 2: went out and these folks from their full suits spraying

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Speaker 2: around and I said, what is this stuff? No idea,

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Speaker 2: but it really works, so God knows what.

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Speaker 1: We were exposed to could be the age and orange probably.

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Speaker 2: So anyway, the body would come in and they would

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Speaker 2: they'd be fingerprinted by police officers. They'd come to us

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Speaker 2: and we would do the identification and detail what we thought.

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Speaker 2: Then they would go to the dental people and we'd

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Speaker 2: take specimens of DNA and so we put all that

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Speaker 2: together and yeah, they'd be found in areas of tourist hotels,

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Speaker 2: so we'd have a list of people. So that's the

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Speaker 2: then you get the anti modern stuff from them. And

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Speaker 2: we developed the system there too, which was rather than

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Speaker 2: just identifying each body on its own, we started to

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Speaker 2: identify children against identified parents, so that you know, you

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Speaker 2: had the parents' DNA in the database and the children

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Speaker 2: you can actually identify through that. But it's a lot

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Speaker 2: of interesting things happened. And I wrote a paper recently

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Speaker 2: called Hiding in Plane Sight, and I was just talking

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Speaker 2: about how best to hide a homicide if you can

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Speaker 2: put the body amongst others. And I was called out

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Speaker 2: the back and there was a coffin under a whole

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Speaker 2: part of other coffins full of rotting bodies and they'd

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Speaker 2: taken those and there was the body of a young

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Speaker 2: woman that was fresh and so clearly she didn't die

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Speaker 2: in the sin, but in three days she would have

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Speaker 2: been writting like the rest. So handed her over to

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Speaker 2: the tire authorities. But I was talking about the blitz

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Speaker 2: in London. I think the crime rate went up like

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Speaker 2: forty seven percent. How easy would it be to follow

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Speaker 2: somebody home from the pub, hit them on the head,

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Speaker 2: chuck them into a bomb site.

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Speaker 1: I'm starting the wonder about you, Roger. You've come up

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Speaker 1: with you're obviously thinking too much about to get away

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Speaker 1: with murder. Yeah, well this I catch Killers. That's the

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Speaker 1: name of the podcast.

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Speaker 2: So I'm on your radar.

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Speaker 1: Yeah I've got another case. Yeah, I looking at that.

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Speaker 1: With what you're saying with the body body turning up there,

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Speaker 1: what a golden opportunity. You talked about the monks walking

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Speaker 1: around and that, and then dealing dealing with death. What

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Speaker 1: was I'm trying to get the sense of what the

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Speaker 1: feeling was for everyone involved in that, because it must

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Speaker 1: have been.

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Speaker 2: It was er, it was horrific. What the Tie did

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Speaker 2: at one stage is they had a ceremony to honor

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Speaker 2: the two thousand dead at Carlak and they diverted planes

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Speaker 2: around this so you had a whole stadium of monks

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Speaker 2: and we're on an oval with candles, and they had

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Speaker 2: these rice paper lanterns, each one representing one person that

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Speaker 2: they let go into the sky. It was you can

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Speaker 2: see it on the internet. It was like the Milky

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Speaker 2: Way overhead. It was the most beautiful thing I've ever

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Speaker 2: seen with the chanting. And yet the next day you

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Speaker 2: go back to basically trucks pulling up and just decomposed

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Speaker 2: bodies being being pulled out of them, hundreds and hundreds

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Speaker 2: and hundreds of them.

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Speaker 1: How did it impact on you?

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Speaker 2: I found it really difficult the first day I got there.

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Speaker 2: That the smell was extraordinary, the heat, the humidity. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: I as I said, I was offered the second chance

404
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Speaker 2: to go back the second time. Some people went back

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Speaker 2: five times. I couldn't do it. And I used to

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Speaker 2: get quite emotional when I saw people's presentations on Thailand

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Speaker 2: showing the pictures.

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Speaker 1: You know have.

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Speaker 2: A family member, you know, in their bathers with their child.

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Speaker 2: And I remember when one father was he knew that

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Speaker 2: we had his child, but the child hadn't gone through

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Speaker 2: the formal process of identifications. They couldn't be released, so

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Speaker 2: he was beside himself with anger. As you can imagine,

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Speaker 2: my little boy he is in there. There was one picture,

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Speaker 2: because the tires got boards, you could put pictures up

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Speaker 2: of your loved ones, and there was one little boy

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Speaker 2: with these beautiful, big blue eyes and had his name

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Speaker 2: and everything. I thought, you know, even if you get

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Speaker 2: him back, he's never going to be like that.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Yes, then the tires were I mean they had photographs

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Speaker 2: of the decomposing bodies, their faces, and families were coming around.

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Speaker 2: They had the seed easy you could take home and

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Speaker 2: go through them. You know, maybe it was some weird

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Speaker 2: shaped tooth or something that you could pick.

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Speaker 1: So do you think from disaster Victim Identification DBI, where

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Speaker 1: there's been multiple casualties to identify all the victims, do

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Speaker 1: you think we learned things from that practices?

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Speaker 2: You know we did, And there were there were some

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Speaker 2: teams that came that you know, weren't practicing pathologists, and

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Speaker 2: you know they were taking off the jewelry and putting

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Speaker 2: under the body, or not filling out the forms correctly

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Speaker 2: and taking the original forms with them. It was just

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Speaker 2: you know, coordinating that was was not easy.

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Speaker 1: Do you know you talk about bringing the bodies back

436
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Speaker 1: how many Australians You got an idea of the rough

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Speaker 1: figure that caught up in them.

438
00:22:32,160 --> 00:22:36,840
Speaker 2: I don't. Actually, one of the important things for me

439
00:22:37,040 --> 00:22:39,560
Speaker 2: was the last week I was there, there were two

440
00:22:39,600 --> 00:22:42,760
Speaker 2: Australian bodies and a couple of containers that weren't refrigerated.

441
00:22:43,040 --> 00:22:46,200
Speaker 2: I found them. And then one of the women came

442
00:22:46,200 --> 00:22:49,760
Speaker 2: from Adelaide and so I represented forensic science going out

443
00:22:49,800 --> 00:22:52,240
Speaker 2: to the plane when she came back to get the

444
00:22:52,240 --> 00:22:54,199
Speaker 2: body and met the family. So I thought that was

445
00:22:54,240 --> 00:22:58,600
Speaker 2: a sort of a nice finishing off. I'd been with

446
00:22:58,640 --> 00:23:01,840
Speaker 2: them in Thailand and I was there, come she came back.

447
00:23:01,920 --> 00:23:03,959
Speaker 1: Yeah, those things mean a lot.

448
00:23:04,200 --> 00:23:04,720
Speaker 2: I think they do.

449
00:23:05,640 --> 00:23:10,000
Speaker 1: Circumstances. Did you get was it mandatory for you to

450
00:23:10,040 --> 00:23:15,359
Speaker 1: sit down with a psychologist and talk these things? We

451
00:23:15,400 --> 00:23:17,720
Speaker 1: have that at homicide we'd have to go every six

452
00:23:17,760 --> 00:23:19,520
Speaker 1: months and sit down and talk. But it was that

453
00:23:19,560 --> 00:23:20,760
Speaker 1: part and parcel of it.

454
00:23:20,840 --> 00:23:23,879
Speaker 2: Yeah, I did, and the psychologist I said, what was

455
00:23:23,880 --> 00:23:25,480
Speaker 2: one of the worst things? I said, We're just not

456
00:23:25,560 --> 00:23:28,119
Speaker 2: being recognized and he said, yeah, that's that's what happens

457
00:23:28,160 --> 00:23:30,199
Speaker 2: with me. So really, how do you deal with this?

458
00:23:30,240 --> 00:23:31,720
Speaker 2: I'd drink off headmen, I said, what do you drink

459
00:23:31,760 --> 00:23:34,160
Speaker 2: and whiskey. So we discussed whiskeys and then about two

460
00:23:34,160 --> 00:23:35,679
Speaker 2: weeks later I got an email from him saying, what

461
00:23:35,720 --> 00:23:39,280
Speaker 2: was that whiskey? You recommended Highland? So that was the

462
00:23:39,280 --> 00:23:40,800
Speaker 2: extent of the psychological support.

463
00:23:41,119 --> 00:23:44,800
Speaker 1: Okay, okay, you've talked and you've mentioned a couple of

464
00:23:44,800 --> 00:23:47,320
Speaker 1: times in while we've been sitting down the smell and

465
00:23:47,400 --> 00:23:49,639
Speaker 1: the smell of death, and unless you've smell that, you

466
00:23:49,680 --> 00:23:54,000
Speaker 1: can't you can't really describe it. It's hard to describe.

467
00:23:54,800 --> 00:23:57,720
Speaker 1: Does that have an impact on you, the amount of

468
00:23:57,760 --> 00:23:58,840
Speaker 1: death that you would have smelled.

469
00:24:00,359 --> 00:24:03,800
Speaker 2: It's something you do, you do get used to, and

470
00:24:04,280 --> 00:24:07,720
Speaker 2: after a few decades inhaling formalon, your smell's not as

471
00:24:07,720 --> 00:24:09,480
Speaker 2: good as it used to be. But we were down.

472
00:24:09,600 --> 00:24:13,520
Speaker 2: We had a ceremony at Patong Beach and one of

473
00:24:13,520 --> 00:24:18,119
Speaker 2: the mortue tenders and we walked over and there was

474
00:24:18,119 --> 00:24:20,879
Speaker 2: a remnants of a Japanese restaurant, and sure enough that

475
00:24:20,960 --> 00:24:24,199
Speaker 2: clearly little bodies under that. So I was thinking, you know,

476
00:24:24,280 --> 00:24:26,639
Speaker 2: he'd probably be cheaper than a sniffer dog. Maybe we

477
00:24:26,640 --> 00:24:28,200
Speaker 2: should use him.

478
00:24:28,880 --> 00:24:33,639
Speaker 1: It's not your first first experience in these type of things,

479
00:24:33,680 --> 00:24:37,879
Speaker 1: and the barley bombing, you're also had some involvement in that,

480
00:24:38,600 --> 00:24:42,160
Speaker 1: and that's I look at that from a different perspective

481
00:24:42,160 --> 00:24:45,720
Speaker 1: because that was an active evil murder court. Cause that

482
00:24:46,160 --> 00:24:49,280
Speaker 1: what was your experience dealing with the Barley bombings.

483
00:24:49,600 --> 00:24:51,360
Speaker 2: I came in later in that, so I was sort

484
00:24:51,400 --> 00:24:53,399
Speaker 2: of more auditing. But I had a fair bit to

485
00:24:53,440 --> 00:24:55,959
Speaker 2: do with Ikbar one of the suicide bombers at Paddy's Bar,

486
00:24:56,119 --> 00:24:59,960
Speaker 2: so I was repatriating his his remain.

487
00:25:01,320 --> 00:25:03,640
Speaker 1: Again, when you say you had a fair bit to

488
00:25:03,680 --> 00:25:06,159
Speaker 1: do with him, you were looking at his remains, so

489
00:25:06,359 --> 00:25:09,400
Speaker 1: that put all the pieces together. Basically, basically you find

490
00:25:09,400 --> 00:25:10,359
Speaker 1: out what happened.

491
00:25:10,800 --> 00:25:12,440
Speaker 2: The problem with Bali was interesting. I was watching it

492
00:25:12,480 --> 00:25:14,760
Speaker 2: when it first happened, and you know it was chaos,

493
00:25:14,800 --> 00:25:16,400
Speaker 2: but you had people trying to help, so they were

494
00:25:16,440 --> 00:25:19,439
Speaker 2: sweeping up stuff, so they were destroying the crime scene.

495
00:25:20,040 --> 00:25:23,240
Speaker 2: But of course, again with a DBI, the important thing

496
00:25:23,320 --> 00:25:26,520
Speaker 2: is not so much the deceased. It's to get the

497
00:25:27,359 --> 00:25:32,399
Speaker 2: injured and wounded out and looked after. But yes, Barlei

498
00:25:32,560 --> 00:25:36,119
Speaker 2: was particularly nasty because the bomb that went off at

499
00:25:36,160 --> 00:25:39,520
Speaker 2: the Sari Club was in a vehicle outside and there

500
00:25:39,640 --> 00:25:44,080
Speaker 2: was cast iron grating and glass, so there were secondary

501
00:25:44,080 --> 00:25:48,160
Speaker 2: projectiles that went into the nightclub, and of course there

502
00:25:48,200 --> 00:25:52,200
Speaker 2: was fire, so there was monoxide inhalation as well as

503
00:25:52,200 --> 00:25:54,879
Speaker 2: the injuries. People were crushed trying to get out of

504
00:25:54,920 --> 00:25:56,840
Speaker 2: the doors. So there were a whole lot of different

505
00:25:56,840 --> 00:26:01,840
Speaker 2: things that went on there, and the bodies were fragmented,

506
00:26:01,920 --> 00:26:06,360
Speaker 2: unlike Thailand, where mostly in Thailand the bodies were intact.

507
00:26:06,400 --> 00:26:09,480
Speaker 2: But you do occasionally find strange things. I was in

508
00:26:09,760 --> 00:26:12,560
Speaker 2: mortuary in Thailand and colleague from Zealand and said, look

509
00:26:12,560 --> 00:26:15,320
Speaker 2: at this, and it was an adult woman and her

510
00:26:15,359 --> 00:26:20,200
Speaker 2: head had exploded. And I said, have you found pellets

511
00:26:20,240 --> 00:26:22,880
Speaker 2: because it looked like a shotgun. Yeah, but she must

512
00:26:22,880 --> 00:26:24,199
Speaker 2: have just been going through the water at such as

513
00:26:24,200 --> 00:26:28,080
Speaker 2: speed and hit something. So that's the thing really you're

514
00:26:28,080 --> 00:26:30,360
Speaker 2: looking for. Is this something that doesn't fit you know?

515
00:26:31,320 --> 00:26:33,639
Speaker 2: And as I said, what a perfect way to hide

516
00:26:34,520 --> 00:26:35,879
Speaker 2: crimes in amongst that.

517
00:26:36,240 --> 00:26:39,600
Speaker 1: Put your body in there with the Bali bombings. What's

518
00:26:39,640 --> 00:26:41,679
Speaker 1: the effect on the body where it's caught up in

519
00:26:41,680 --> 00:26:42,159
Speaker 1: the blast.

520
00:26:43,760 --> 00:26:47,800
Speaker 2: It varies, but if a body is in the blast,

521
00:26:48,119 --> 00:26:52,480
Speaker 2: they'll have burns, but they also have characteristic sort of

522
00:26:52,520 --> 00:26:54,800
Speaker 2: internal findings. If the body is still intact, you know

523
00:26:55,040 --> 00:26:57,600
Speaker 2: where the lungs have expanded up against the chest wall.

524
00:26:57,760 --> 00:27:00,520
Speaker 2: The intestines have sort of blown out, so you can

525
00:27:00,640 --> 00:27:02,560
Speaker 2: see things to support it. But if it's if they're

526
00:27:02,600 --> 00:27:07,199
Speaker 2: close to the epicenter, basically it'll be fragmented. So they

527
00:27:07,240 --> 00:27:10,200
Speaker 2: always say that, you know, and it didn't apply in Barley,

528
00:27:10,200 --> 00:27:13,119
Speaker 2: but with suicide bombers you need to look around the

529
00:27:13,160 --> 00:27:15,240
Speaker 2: rus for half a kilometer because their head has gone.

530
00:27:15,440 --> 00:27:18,240
Speaker 1: Are you When you're going through the bodies on a

531
00:27:18,320 --> 00:27:21,640
Speaker 1: situation like that, you're also looking for the physical evidence

532
00:27:21,640 --> 00:27:23,280
Speaker 1: of support the police investigation.

533
00:27:23,480 --> 00:27:26,919
Speaker 2: You're going through looking for ordinance. And that's one of

534
00:27:26,960 --> 00:27:30,720
Speaker 2: the dangers of dv I in the sale war zone

535
00:27:31,080 --> 00:27:32,920
Speaker 2: is that the body has been booby trapped. I mean,

536
00:27:32,960 --> 00:27:36,600
Speaker 2: what better way to actually cause further problems.

537
00:27:36,800 --> 00:27:38,840
Speaker 1: Thinking about how to commit crimes again.

538
00:27:39,200 --> 00:27:44,920
Speaker 2: Not just relating, right, I must admit though the bombings

539
00:27:44,960 --> 00:27:48,600
Speaker 2: in London, I was told this by a forensic pathologist

540
00:27:48,720 --> 00:27:51,159
Speaker 2: and I don't know whether it's a pock fall, but

541
00:27:51,160 --> 00:27:53,880
Speaker 2: they've taken the bodies to a parade ground and they're

542
00:27:53,880 --> 00:27:57,159
Speaker 2: looking for a gunshot residue, and they were getting incredible

543
00:27:57,200 --> 00:28:01,080
Speaker 2: hits until I realized that a cannon had been fired

544
00:28:01,200 --> 00:28:03,400
Speaker 2: at noon every day for the last hundred years in

545
00:28:03,440 --> 00:28:07,160
Speaker 2: that quadrangle, so they had to peel that back.

546
00:28:07,280 --> 00:28:07,480
Speaker 1: Yeah.

547
00:28:07,680 --> 00:28:10,960
Speaker 2: Yeah. I also said to the fellows in England, I said,

548
00:28:11,040 --> 00:28:13,200
Speaker 2: why didn't they let a dirty blob GoF with anthrax

549
00:28:13,280 --> 00:28:15,000
Speaker 2: or something? I mean, I said, we can talk about

550
00:28:15,000 --> 00:28:16,840
Speaker 2: this because terrorist not a see. If they've done that,

551
00:28:16,880 --> 00:28:20,280
Speaker 2: we couldn't have coped. I don't understand why they just

552
00:28:21,000 --> 00:28:24,040
Speaker 2: do the one hit, not a couple. I'm pleased they don't,

553
00:28:24,359 --> 00:28:25,240
Speaker 2: but the.

554
00:28:25,800 --> 00:28:28,840
Speaker 1: Type of impact that.

555
00:28:27,960 --> 00:28:29,800
Speaker 2: Do you destroy the support worker is coming and then

556
00:28:29,840 --> 00:28:31,639
Speaker 2: you really cause the problem.

557
00:28:31,840 --> 00:28:36,520
Speaker 1: You've been in this field for the years, changes, improvements

558
00:28:36,560 --> 00:28:39,960
Speaker 1: and different things. We used to rely on facial recognition.

559
00:28:40,280 --> 00:28:43,600
Speaker 1: You can see some problems with facial recognition if you

560
00:28:43,680 --> 00:28:45,720
Speaker 1: reconstruct a face from a skeletal remain.

561
00:28:46,800 --> 00:28:51,280
Speaker 2: I think, and this is just my personal view, that

562
00:28:51,320 --> 00:28:56,440
Speaker 2: facial recognition what it does best is remind people of

563
00:28:56,560 --> 00:28:58,520
Speaker 2: memories they have of the time, so that brings in

564
00:28:58,680 --> 00:29:01,920
Speaker 2: and you would know this too, that brings extra information forward.

565
00:29:02,200 --> 00:29:07,320
Speaker 2: But when I see a face reconstruction and the skeleton,

566
00:29:07,480 --> 00:29:10,200
Speaker 2: what I have to do And apparently this has been

567
00:29:10,240 --> 00:29:13,800
Speaker 2: done as people have done studies where they've taken donated

568
00:29:13,800 --> 00:29:16,440
Speaker 2: bodies so they've got what the face looks like. They've

569
00:29:16,480 --> 00:29:19,480
Speaker 2: then taken the skull, they've given it to facial reconstruction people,

570
00:29:19,480 --> 00:29:21,960
Speaker 2: and then you compare the two. So that is something

571
00:29:22,200 --> 00:29:24,400
Speaker 2: I need to look at because I'm sure that they're

572
00:29:24,480 --> 00:29:27,120
Speaker 2: quite different. I mean, this is flash, you know, he

573
00:29:27,320 --> 00:29:29,800
Speaker 2: is hair, all that sort of stuff. Yeah, so I

574
00:29:29,880 --> 00:29:34,400
Speaker 2: think that facial recognition is sort of not as exciting

575
00:29:34,400 --> 00:29:36,400
Speaker 2: as we once thought. It was a bite marks again.

576
00:29:36,560 --> 00:29:37,600
Speaker 2: You know, you used to be able to tell an

577
00:29:37,640 --> 00:29:38,880
Speaker 2: individual from a bite mark.

578
00:29:39,440 --> 00:29:42,920
Speaker 1: Now you can't well talk about that because I've been

579
00:29:42,960 --> 00:29:47,000
Speaker 1: involved in investigations where the bites have come into play.

580
00:29:47,200 --> 00:29:51,400
Speaker 2: Ye, very hard to actually pin it to a particular person.

581
00:29:51,440 --> 00:29:53,160
Speaker 2: If it's a small bite, it's a child with large

582
00:29:53,160 --> 00:29:56,280
Speaker 2: bidet's an adult. But it really the importance of bite

583
00:29:56,320 --> 00:29:59,960
Speaker 2: marks is swabbing for saliva DNA. That's the most real.

584
00:30:00,680 --> 00:30:03,400
Speaker 2: So there are a lot of things that we used

585
00:30:03,440 --> 00:30:06,360
Speaker 2: to think were important that you know, ant is reliable.

586
00:30:06,600 --> 00:30:08,480
Speaker 2: One of the best things I find in court is

587
00:30:08,520 --> 00:30:10,680
Speaker 2: to be able to say I have no idea and

588
00:30:10,720 --> 00:30:13,040
Speaker 2: the jury, you know, will then make eye contact and

589
00:30:13,080 --> 00:30:17,240
Speaker 2: you can see them thinking, well, he's honest. So when

590
00:30:17,280 --> 00:30:19,200
Speaker 2: he does say he knows something, then we can probably trusted.

591
00:30:20,400 --> 00:30:24,320
Speaker 1: Have you seen and without the specific examples, experts at

592
00:30:24,400 --> 00:30:27,840
Speaker 1: sort of stray outside their lane of expertise in court.

593
00:30:28,640 --> 00:30:33,720
Speaker 2: Yes, your honor, And that's one of the problems is

594
00:30:33,720 --> 00:30:35,400
Speaker 2: you know people are experts because I say they are,

595
00:30:35,600 --> 00:30:39,520
Speaker 2: you know, and some people will go all over the

596
00:30:39,560 --> 00:30:45,000
Speaker 2: place with and I've had experts who have been accused

597
00:30:45,000 --> 00:30:46,960
Speaker 2: of knowing we misleading the court and it just seems

598
00:30:47,000 --> 00:30:50,960
Speaker 2: to bounce off them. I think that people like us

599
00:30:50,960 --> 00:30:56,440
Speaker 2: are in no man's land because we're prepared to say

600
00:30:56,440 --> 00:31:00,640
Speaker 2: that nothing's absolute, this is possible, and not half as

601
00:31:00,640 --> 00:31:02,960
Speaker 2: convincing as saying clearly this is the cause of death

602
00:31:02,960 --> 00:31:03,560
Speaker 2: and nothing else.

603
00:31:04,000 --> 00:31:08,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, if but you talk about credibility to like, if

604
00:31:08,040 --> 00:31:10,360
Speaker 1: you make that comment, then that other evidence comes in

605
00:31:10,440 --> 00:31:15,120
Speaker 1: that can dispel what that person's saying. Definitely happened.

606
00:31:15,160 --> 00:31:17,160
Speaker 2: You need to do so, mister, they call me mister.

607
00:31:17,600 --> 00:31:20,520
Speaker 2: They want to, you know, diminish my status in the court.

608
00:31:20,560 --> 00:31:27,000
Speaker 2: I mean my father was mister. So they dropped the professor. Yes, mister,

609
00:31:27,360 --> 00:31:28,400
Speaker 2: can you definitely exclude that?

610
00:31:28,680 --> 00:31:31,960
Speaker 1: That's Have they ever got you down to Roger? Roger?

611
00:31:32,000 --> 00:31:33,560
Speaker 2: What were you not as such?

612
00:31:34,040 --> 00:31:34,160
Speaker 1: Well?

613
00:31:34,440 --> 00:31:36,680
Speaker 2: That's outside the court. I've been called worse.

614
00:31:36,760 --> 00:31:41,000
Speaker 1: But yeah, if they're talking me up, if I'm in

615
00:31:41,000 --> 00:31:44,040
Speaker 1: the witness box, detective chief inspector, the very experienced, once

616
00:31:44,040 --> 00:31:45,720
Speaker 1: they start to talk me up, I know I'm about

617
00:31:45,760 --> 00:31:48,440
Speaker 1: to be hit, be brought down. So I imagine you

618
00:31:48,520 --> 00:31:51,400
Speaker 1: the experience experience that. What's the longest time you've spent

619
00:31:51,400 --> 00:31:52,240
Speaker 1: in the witness box.

620
00:31:53,080 --> 00:31:58,960
Speaker 2: Well, it's not chronological. The following trial, I was only

621
00:31:58,960 --> 00:32:00,880
Speaker 2: in for an afternoon, but that was a very long

622
00:32:00,920 --> 00:32:04,120
Speaker 2: afternoon probably I suppose day or two.

623
00:32:04,320 --> 00:32:07,280
Speaker 1: You know, Well, we've had we've had a guest on

624
00:32:07,320 --> 00:32:11,720
Speaker 1: that wrote the book about Catheline Folbing and what's your

625
00:32:11,760 --> 00:32:14,000
Speaker 1: take on them. It's a very complex matner. It's probably

626
00:32:14,000 --> 00:32:16,800
Speaker 1: a hard question to yeah, for you to answer, but

627
00:32:16,880 --> 00:32:19,480
Speaker 1: just in your area of involvement in the matter.

628
00:32:19,680 --> 00:32:22,680
Speaker 2: Well, I appeared for the defense back in two thousand

629
00:32:22,680 --> 00:32:25,440
Speaker 2: and three, and I've always said that I think there

630
00:32:25,520 --> 00:32:30,520
Speaker 2: was reasonable doubt. I think all four kids had significan

631
00:32:30,520 --> 00:32:35,080
Speaker 2: potentially significant conditions. Caleb had a soft larynx, he was

632
00:32:35,120 --> 00:32:39,440
Speaker 2: having trouble breathing. Patrick was epileptic. Sarah had a very

633
00:32:39,480 --> 00:32:42,560
Speaker 2: strange shape at the back of her soft Palette and

634
00:32:42,640 --> 00:32:46,360
Speaker 2: Laura had my carditis. So I mean people now looking

635
00:32:46,360 --> 00:32:50,640
Speaker 2: at this genetic material. For me, I don't need genetics

636
00:32:50,680 --> 00:32:54,240
Speaker 2: to say there was no evidence of inflicted suffocation and

637
00:32:54,320 --> 00:32:56,880
Speaker 2: that they had conditions that could potentially kill them. Could

638
00:32:56,880 --> 00:32:59,080
Speaker 2: they been suffocated, yes, they could, but they also could

639
00:32:59,120 --> 00:33:02,920
Speaker 2: have died of this. I think there was always reasonable doubt.

640
00:33:03,040 --> 00:33:08,800
Speaker 1: Yeah, and that's a thing that's played out. It's a

641
00:33:08,800 --> 00:33:09,760
Speaker 1: fascinating case, but.

642
00:33:09,840 --> 00:33:10,600
Speaker 2: It's a tragic case.

643
00:33:10,680 --> 00:33:10,880
Speaker 1: Yeah.

644
00:33:11,840 --> 00:33:15,800
Speaker 2: No matter which side you're on, you've got four dead, lovely.

645
00:33:15,640 --> 00:33:21,760
Speaker 1: Children, no one, no one wins. You've talked about in

646
00:33:22,480 --> 00:33:25,200
Speaker 1: the views that you've done a right to mourn and

647
00:33:26,600 --> 00:33:28,640
Speaker 1: talk us through that, because we're getting deep into the

648
00:33:28,680 --> 00:33:31,120
Speaker 1: emotional side of the type of crime that you've done.

649
00:33:31,160 --> 00:33:32,560
Speaker 1: And my observation.

650
00:33:34,080 --> 00:33:35,160
Speaker 2: I've observed.

651
00:33:37,960 --> 00:33:40,200
Speaker 1: Slip, So what other crimes if you've done, I'll just

652
00:33:40,200 --> 00:33:43,440
Speaker 1: start cautioning you. But my observation, you've kept your sense

653
00:33:43,440 --> 00:33:45,920
Speaker 1: of humor. You've seen a lot of darkness in life,

654
00:33:46,280 --> 00:33:49,240
Speaker 1: and you also talk about the right to mourn, that

655
00:33:49,400 --> 00:33:52,400
Speaker 1: there's nothing wrong with mourning and feeling the pain that

656
00:33:53,080 --> 00:33:55,640
Speaker 1: the things you've seen. Talk us through through your thinking there.

657
00:33:55,520 --> 00:33:57,960
Speaker 2: Well, I think anybody exposed the tragedy needs to mourn.

658
00:33:58,400 --> 00:34:00,400
Speaker 2: He has said if you if you don't, then I

659
00:34:00,400 --> 00:34:05,960
Speaker 2: think that you're knowingly or unwittingly just cutting yourself off

660
00:34:06,160 --> 00:34:11,800
Speaker 2: from an important part of emotional processes. The reason I've survived,

661
00:34:11,840 --> 00:34:15,720
Speaker 2: I think, is because I understand how important these deaths

662
00:34:15,719 --> 00:34:19,959
Speaker 2: are the families in the community, and it's something I think.

663
00:34:20,480 --> 00:34:23,720
Speaker 2: Forensic pathology is more than just dissection and report writing.

664
00:34:24,239 --> 00:34:27,520
Speaker 2: It should be integrating into the community to help people.

665
00:34:28,880 --> 00:34:33,840
Speaker 2: And that's It's bizarre though, the cases that get through,

666
00:34:34,239 --> 00:34:36,839
Speaker 2: And I don't know how we do it in the police.

667
00:34:36,880 --> 00:34:39,560
Speaker 2: I don't know how we actually we're not taught to

668
00:34:39,640 --> 00:34:42,400
Speaker 2: warl ourselves off, but we do somehow. But some cases

669
00:34:42,440 --> 00:34:45,600
Speaker 2: just I remember there was a case of a he

670
00:34:47,160 --> 00:34:49,640
Speaker 2: was an execution of one of the biker gangs, and

671
00:34:49,680 --> 00:34:54,239
Speaker 2: he committed suicide on a lonely beach and I was

672
00:34:54,280 --> 00:34:56,759
Speaker 2: sitting there with my wife that night and she said,

673
00:34:56,760 --> 00:34:59,200
Speaker 2: what's wrong with you? I said, really really upset about

674
00:34:59,200 --> 00:35:04,120
Speaker 2: this case. But you see murdered children, you see this,

675
00:35:04,120 --> 00:35:06,480
Speaker 2: this and this. I don't know. There was just something

676
00:35:06,520 --> 00:35:10,120
Speaker 2: about this that got to me. It's very strange.

677
00:35:10,320 --> 00:35:13,319
Speaker 1: It's interesting isn't it. Is there something particular about that,

678
00:35:13,360 --> 00:35:16,200
Speaker 1: because given all the things that you've seen, I'm just

679
00:35:16,239 --> 00:35:18,080
Speaker 1: wondering why that sort of jump jumped out.

680
00:35:18,480 --> 00:35:20,200
Speaker 2: I don't know. I talked about it with my wife

681
00:35:20,200 --> 00:35:24,480
Speaker 2: and we wonder whether it was because he was a

682
00:35:24,520 --> 00:35:27,600
Speaker 2: bloke about my age and he'd gone to this isolated

683
00:35:27,640 --> 00:35:29,640
Speaker 2: beach that was very like some of the beaches I

684
00:35:29,760 --> 00:35:31,600
Speaker 2: used to go to as a kid in Tasmania. So

685
00:35:31,680 --> 00:35:34,000
Speaker 2: they just seemed to be a lonely poignancy to it.

686
00:35:34,080 --> 00:35:38,400
Speaker 2: But yeah, it may be that it was just somebody

687
00:35:38,400 --> 00:35:39,680
Speaker 2: strangely I could identify with.

688
00:35:40,520 --> 00:35:44,920
Speaker 1: It's interesting how different cases have different different impacts. What

689
00:35:45,000 --> 00:35:47,560
Speaker 1: about your faith in society?

690
00:35:47,800 --> 00:35:48,480
Speaker 2: I like dogs?

691
00:35:48,880 --> 00:35:50,680
Speaker 1: Okay, what about killer dogs?

692
00:35:53,640 --> 00:35:59,400
Speaker 2: Killer dogs are usually the product of killer owners. You know,

693
00:35:59,480 --> 00:36:01,840
Speaker 2: if you treat a dog badly, it'll.

694
00:36:01,400 --> 00:36:04,840
Speaker 1: Be well, you see the most terrifying looking dogs and

695
00:36:04,880 --> 00:36:08,600
Speaker 1: they're placid them. That comes down to the owner generally.

696
00:36:08,680 --> 00:36:12,440
Speaker 1: But have you seen many situations of dogs that have killed.

697
00:36:12,719 --> 00:36:15,319
Speaker 2: I've seen a few. There was a fascinating case in

698
00:36:15,360 --> 00:36:18,480
Speaker 2: Canada that I wasn't involved with, but the pathologist who

699
00:36:18,520 --> 00:36:21,040
Speaker 2: did the autopsy said the child had been a stab

700
00:36:21,120 --> 00:36:26,399
Speaker 2: with scissors and the mother went to jail and there

701
00:36:26,480 --> 00:36:28,000
Speaker 2: was a pitbull in the house that actually had a

702
00:36:28,000 --> 00:36:33,000
Speaker 2: bloodstained in front. Subsequently came out and it was a

703
00:36:33,000 --> 00:36:35,960
Speaker 2: dog attack. He just got it completely wrong. But there

704
00:36:35,960 --> 00:36:37,400
Speaker 2: are certain breeze yes, you know. I mean, I've got

705
00:36:37,440 --> 00:36:38,879
Speaker 2: a golden a Trita. I don't think it's been one

706
00:36:38,880 --> 00:36:42,080
Speaker 2: report of Golden A Tria licking somebody, leah.

707
00:36:42,320 --> 00:36:45,120
Speaker 1: But anyway, before we got off on the dog track

708
00:36:45,680 --> 00:36:46,960
Speaker 1: a society.

709
00:36:47,560 --> 00:36:53,520
Speaker 2: I'm worried. I think that a couple of reasons. Methamphetamine

710
00:36:53,640 --> 00:36:56,200
Speaker 2: is everywhere, as you know, that that's a toxic drug

711
00:36:56,520 --> 00:37:00,080
Speaker 2: and it just destroys people. And we've done studies showing

712
00:37:00,120 --> 00:37:04,400
Speaker 2: the percentage of meth with homicide victims and homicide perpetrators,

713
00:37:04,440 --> 00:37:07,279
Speaker 2: and as you know, it's very high. Also, I think

714
00:37:07,320 --> 00:37:13,680
Speaker 2: that the Internet trivializes violence. You have kids just watching

715
00:37:13,680 --> 00:37:15,719
Speaker 2: this stuff and they think that this is normal. Some

716
00:37:15,760 --> 00:37:21,759
Speaker 2: of those computer games are outrageous. You know, they train

717
00:37:22,400 --> 00:37:25,640
Speaker 2: troops now on computer games when they're taking out soldiers

718
00:37:25,640 --> 00:37:27,200
Speaker 2: and stuff. So it's the same process.

719
00:37:27,320 --> 00:37:30,000
Speaker 1: You can embedd it in the actions and the thing.

720
00:37:31,239 --> 00:37:34,920
Speaker 2: I think it just it makes quite violent horrific acts

721
00:37:35,239 --> 00:37:35,840
Speaker 2: seem normal.

722
00:37:36,280 --> 00:37:39,719
Speaker 1: No interesting, interesting take on that than what you've said

723
00:37:39,760 --> 00:37:42,760
Speaker 1: about the drugs too, And I would imagine that you've

724
00:37:42,840 --> 00:37:45,040
Speaker 1: done some post more thans and seen the results of

725
00:37:45,160 --> 00:37:46,960
Speaker 1: heavy use of drugs.

726
00:37:47,200 --> 00:37:51,120
Speaker 2: And I was walking past a group of houses in

727
00:37:51,160 --> 00:37:53,640
Speaker 2: my neighborhood just around the corner the other night, and

728
00:37:53,680 --> 00:37:57,600
Speaker 2: the fellow the allegations of myth selling there, and there

729
00:37:57,640 --> 00:37:59,720
Speaker 2: was a fellow inside who'd broken down the doors and stuff.

730
00:38:00,640 --> 00:38:03,080
Speaker 2: That was nine o'clock on Saturday night. By six o'clock

731
00:38:03,120 --> 00:38:04,799
Speaker 2: the next morning, he had murdered the bloke in the park.

732
00:38:06,560 --> 00:38:07,520
Speaker 1: No role or reason.

733
00:38:08,480 --> 00:38:11,360
Speaker 2: So it's everywhere now, Okay.

734
00:38:12,719 --> 00:38:15,920
Speaker 1: I think I mentioned Guardians of the Dead, a seven

735
00:38:16,000 --> 00:38:19,080
Speaker 1: part podcast series that you did. How did you get

736
00:38:19,120 --> 00:38:19,799
Speaker 1: involved in that.

737
00:38:20,120 --> 00:38:22,640
Speaker 2: One of the media people, Lisa Black at the university,

738
00:38:22,840 --> 00:38:26,360
Speaker 2: was interested in forensics and we just got chatting one

739
00:38:26,440 --> 00:38:28,680
Speaker 2: day and she said, well, you know, the local paper

740
00:38:28,760 --> 00:38:31,640
Speaker 2: might be interested in doing a podcast. I'd done a

741
00:38:31,680 --> 00:38:35,640
Speaker 2: full podcast. We just sat down and chatted about stuff

742
00:38:35,640 --> 00:38:39,160
Speaker 2: that I'd done and seen, and it was an interesting process.

743
00:38:39,440 --> 00:38:44,320
Speaker 2: I find getting involved with the media and assemblitting information interesting,

744
00:38:44,320 --> 00:38:47,040
Speaker 2: you know, whether it's film or whether it's radio or whatever.

745
00:38:47,120 --> 00:38:50,239
Speaker 2: So it's just something different to do that I think

746
00:38:50,320 --> 00:38:51,080
Speaker 2: can be useful.

747
00:38:51,480 --> 00:38:55,120
Speaker 1: Well, I think that ken, then it's not glorifying, not

748
00:38:55,160 --> 00:39:00,920
Speaker 1: glorifying crime. You're explaining, explaining situations in preparation for this podcast,

749
00:39:00,960 --> 00:39:04,040
Speaker 1: I think I said to you before we start, I

750
00:39:04,080 --> 00:39:06,120
Speaker 1: sat down to listen just to get a sense of

751
00:39:06,280 --> 00:39:08,960
Speaker 1: what you're about, and I listened to all episodes.

752
00:39:09,000 --> 00:39:11,239
Speaker 2: So and as I said, you need to get out,

753
00:39:11,480 --> 00:39:12,680
Speaker 2: I probably shouldn't.

754
00:39:12,920 --> 00:39:16,720
Speaker 1: I probably shouldn't be talking up on the podcast big

755
00:39:17,480 --> 00:39:20,239
Speaker 1: sitting here here doing my own podcast, But yeah, it was.

756
00:39:20,400 --> 00:39:22,520
Speaker 1: It was fascinating. And what I did like about it

757
00:39:22,719 --> 00:39:26,239
Speaker 1: that you take on that because quite often you could

758
00:39:26,239 --> 00:39:29,040
Speaker 1: be called an academic, but you've also got that let's.

759
00:39:28,880 --> 00:39:30,399
Speaker 2: Say, how do you well?

760
00:39:31,239 --> 00:39:33,600
Speaker 1: Academic can be a compliment, but it can also be

761
00:39:33,640 --> 00:39:37,160
Speaker 1: said if it said with the right tone. But you're

762
00:39:37,160 --> 00:39:39,600
Speaker 1: explain it in layman's terms. And I think that's important

763
00:39:39,640 --> 00:39:42,440
Speaker 1: because quite often science puts itself up up there that

764
00:39:43,640 --> 00:39:45,320
Speaker 1: you don't need to know. We're not going to explain

765
00:39:45,320 --> 00:39:47,160
Speaker 1: it to the common person, but you've got a way

766
00:39:47,160 --> 00:39:49,160
Speaker 1: of explaining what you come across.

767
00:39:49,320 --> 00:39:53,440
Speaker 2: My philosophy is if you can't explain something simply to somebody,

768
00:39:53,560 --> 00:39:55,040
Speaker 2: then you don't understand it yourself.

769
00:39:55,400 --> 00:39:57,960
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, that's a good way of looking at I'll

770
00:39:58,000 --> 00:40:00,399
Speaker 1: think of that next time the computer per and comes

771
00:40:00,400 --> 00:40:03,520
Speaker 1: out to fix my computer. I don't care.

772
00:40:03,560 --> 00:40:06,880
Speaker 2: Why just fix it and don't don't change that.

773
00:40:08,000 --> 00:40:09,399
Speaker 1: What are you doing with yourself? Now?

774
00:40:10,200 --> 00:40:13,400
Speaker 2: Still working halftime at Forgics. So I'm on call in

775
00:40:13,440 --> 00:40:18,600
Speaker 2: a couple of weeks time, but winding back. Actually, yeah,

776
00:40:18,840 --> 00:40:22,040
Speaker 2: I've I got I had a goal to get a

777
00:40:22,080 --> 00:40:23,799
Speaker 2: thousand peer reviewed papers, and I got that a couple

778
00:40:23,840 --> 00:40:26,319
Speaker 2: of weeks ago. Yeah, so that was I mean, it's

779
00:40:26,320 --> 00:40:28,560
Speaker 2: it's like a golf handicap. Who cares except yourself, But

780
00:40:28,600 --> 00:40:30,400
Speaker 2: you know it was important to me.

781
00:40:31,600 --> 00:40:35,080
Speaker 1: You're you're under underplane your success and you're standing within

782
00:40:35,160 --> 00:40:38,680
Speaker 1: the field that you've operated into a lot of awards

783
00:40:38,680 --> 00:40:40,560
Speaker 1: and different things. So full credit to you.

784
00:40:40,800 --> 00:40:41,200
Speaker 2: Thank you.

785
00:40:42,200 --> 00:40:44,000
Speaker 1: I've enjoyed. I've enjoyed the chat.

786
00:40:44,280 --> 00:40:45,319
Speaker 2: I wish I could say the same.

787
00:40:47,200 --> 00:40:49,280
Speaker 1: Maybe you're not that funny. I thought you were funny,

788
00:40:49,280 --> 00:40:53,319
Speaker 1: but maybe maybe you're not. Maybe you are a horrible Roger. Look,

789
00:40:53,360 --> 00:40:55,319
Speaker 1: I'd like to thank you for not just coming on

790
00:40:55,320 --> 00:40:57,399
Speaker 1: the podcast, but also for the work that you've done,

791
00:40:57,640 --> 00:41:00,719
Speaker 1: and because I know it's difficult work and doing it

792
00:41:00,760 --> 00:41:03,560
Speaker 1: with compassion. I think that's so important. I saw that

793
00:41:03,640 --> 00:41:05,920
Speaker 1: in the homicide, and if people didn't have that empathy

794
00:41:05,920 --> 00:41:09,120
Speaker 1: and compassion, they do cause more damage to people that

795
00:41:09,160 --> 00:41:12,879
Speaker 1: shouldn't be damaged any further. And you've kept your sense

796
00:41:12,880 --> 00:41:15,800
Speaker 1: of humor and you seem seemed like quite a reasonable person.

797
00:41:15,960 --> 00:41:20,040
Speaker 2: That's the medication, all right. Thanks Roger,