Speaker 1: Apoche Production. Welcome to another episode of Brave Always the
Speaker 1: CEO series. This series, we launch into the new world
Speaker 1: of brave leadership.
Speaker 2: Happy people create happy businesses, true.
Speaker 3: Emotionally intelligent leadership.
Speaker 1: I've picked up vomit once on our about our fourth flight,
Speaker 1: and everybody thought, well, if it's good enough for him,
Speaker 1: I can do it now.
Speaker 3: We will be joined by culture and leadership.
Speaker 1: Experts and some superstar CEOs who will courageously tell us
Speaker 1: the truth behind their brave leadership journeys. I am personally
Speaker 1: very excited to have the amazing Michael Schneider joined me today.
Speaker 1: Michael is the managing director of one of Australia's most
Speaker 1: trusted and iconic brands, Bunnings. Having started his career as
Speaker 1: a young fifteen year old at Target, Michael's career has
Speaker 1: spanned leadership roles from Target to Westbach and then ultimately Bunnings,
Speaker 1: where he joined in two thousand and five as a
Speaker 1: state operations manager. Whilst his resume is impressive, the reason
Speaker 1: I'm thrilled to have him here today is here is
Speaker 1: a man with one of the biggest brands in the country,
Speaker 1: responsible for fifty three thousand team members and he is
Speaker 1: deeply loved and respected by all who come across his path.
Speaker 3: So welcome Michael. It's great to have you here today.
Speaker 2: Great to be here, and thanks for the opportunity.
Speaker 1: So, Michael, part of my excitement about interviewing you is
Speaker 1: my fascination with what happens to leaders as they rise
Speaker 1: through the ranks and make it to the top. So
Speaker 1: you're exposed to leaders at all levels across all industries
Speaker 1: in Australia. Can I start with two questions, what behavior
Speaker 1: or attitude do you.
Speaker 3: Think is missing from leadership in this country?
Speaker 1: And secondly, what unique attribute do you think Ossie leaders
Speaker 1: have that no other country can match.
Speaker 2: I think they're almost the same thing, ironically. I think,
Speaker 2: you know, one of the things that's really unique in
Speaker 2: Australia is the absence of hierarchy and formality, even more
Speaker 2: formal organizations. When I speak to peers in Europe or
Speaker 2: United States or United Kingdom, you know, there's a real
Speaker 2: sense of importance attached to job title and sort of status,
Speaker 2: and I think in some ways that can really define
Speaker 2: for those leaders what their roles entail were. In Australia,
Speaker 2: you know, I think it's far more egalitarian notwithstanding that
Speaker 2: there is structure in hierarchy in all organizations. I think
Speaker 2: there is a more natural, down to earth nature that
Speaker 2: you come across with Australian leaders. But I think sometimes
Speaker 2: for many leaders they're afraid to let that guard down
Speaker 2: when you get to know them. The issues are really common.
Speaker 2: You know, we're really concerned about our teams, we are
Speaker 2: very focused on our customers. We want to be doing
Speaker 2: the right things by community and stakeholders. But it takes
Speaker 2: a while to let those barriers fall down. And I
Speaker 2: think when you apply that through an organizational lens, that
Speaker 2: can sometimes make it hard for an organization's team to
Speaker 2: really know and understand who their leader is and you
Speaker 2: know what those values are. And I think that's something
Speaker 2: that can be a little bit of a challenge.
Speaker 1: Are you saying almost to a degree that being vulnerable
Speaker 1: at that level can be quite difficult or can take time.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think there's still a bit of a hangover
Speaker 2: of vulnerability being seen as a weakness or being seen
Speaker 2: as something that can be exploitive. But I think if
Speaker 2: you're confident in yourself, when you under stand the values
Speaker 2: that are important to you and the values that are
Speaker 2: you know that you want to sort of stand for
Speaker 2: and stand up for. Then I think you can sort
Speaker 2: of find your way to a place where you can
Speaker 2: be vulnerable and not be worried that that's going to
Speaker 2: be used against you in some way, shape or form.
Speaker 4: But I do think it's really tough.
Speaker 2: You know, you've only got to open the newspaper any
Speaker 2: other week, and the character assassinations of business leaders, sporting leaders,
Speaker 2: cultural leaders, faith leaders, political leaders is incessant. So if
Speaker 2: you're putting yourself out there and you're exposing some level
Speaker 2: of weakness of vulnerability, then there's a level of risks
Speaker 2: that probably didn't exist ten or fifteen years ago. And
Speaker 2: what is a twenty four hour news and social news
Speaker 2: cycle now.
Speaker 1: I have obviously spoken to a couple of your team members,
Speaker 1: and I do know afe you people who work to
Speaker 1: Bunnings in their time, and they all say lots of
Speaker 1: great things about you.
Speaker 3: But I want to know if I went up to five.
Speaker 1: Random Bunnings team members today and ask them what they
Speaker 1: love about you, what would.
Speaker 2: They say, Oh, there's probably plenty that don't love me.
Speaker 2: To be truthful, it's a big team, as you said,
Speaker 2: over fifty years, which is a real privilege to be
Speaker 2: a part of such a big group of people. But
Speaker 2: I think what I'd hope people would say is what
Speaker 2: you see is what you get. That I'm approachable and
Speaker 2: that I can empathize with the different experiences the team have.
Speaker 2: I think some of that is spending most of my
Speaker 2: career in the industry and doing almost every role, probably
Speaker 2: from the shop floor to the role that I do today,
Speaker 2: but also been at Bunnings for the better part of
Speaker 2: twenty years. You do really long and enduring friendships, really
Speaker 2: meaningful friendships, and I think that can help to really
Speaker 2: build connection and trust, which are things that are I
Speaker 2: think are fundamental foundations for any leader wanting to sort
Speaker 2: of get ahead.
Speaker 3: I agree.
Speaker 1: I think being seen for me is the gold standard, right,
Speaker 1: and I know that you do. You're out on the floor.
Speaker 1: I think most images that I seem to find if.
Speaker 3: You are in a red outfit.
Speaker 1: And I've heard a funny story about you serving a
Speaker 1: customer once.
Speaker 3: Did you mix paint? Did you chop woard?
Speaker 4: No, I was cutting carpet.
Speaker 2: I'm a very bad but passionate cyclist, and most years
Speaker 2: my younger son and I go to Adelaide with some
Speaker 2: friends and we spend time following the tour down Under,
Speaker 2: and a couple of years back we were doing a
Speaker 2: national community barbecue to raise money for the bushfires, so
Speaker 2: they sort of think end of twenty nineteen start of
Speaker 2: twenty twenty the bushfires had devastated so many parts of
Speaker 2: the country. Bunning's got behind some fundraising with barbecues and
Speaker 2: we took our reds and my son was working for
Speaker 2: Bunnings at the time, so we jumped on the barbecue
Speaker 2: at one of our South Straining stores. And I can't
Speaker 2: resist the opportunity to wander around with the store manager
Speaker 2: and have a bit of.
Speaker 4: A chat and talk to the team.
Speaker 2: And yeah, customer needed some carpet cut and not something
Speaker 2: that I do very often. I do know how to
Speaker 2: do it and know how to do it safely, and
Speaker 2: made sure that I gave them far more than the
Speaker 2: out required, because I'd hope to be the one to
Speaker 2: short change a customer. And yeah, the very sharp observation
Speaker 2: from the gentleman there was that it was clearly something
Speaker 2: that I didn't do very often, but I gave it
Speaker 2: my all anyway, so it was pretty cool.
Speaker 3: I love that.
Speaker 1: So when you're out on the floor like that, like,
Speaker 1: why do you do it? I mean, I know what
Speaker 1: you do in the sense of obviously it's very connected
Speaker 1: to the people, But what do you gain when you're
Speaker 1: at the floor?
Speaker 3: What do you learn that you couldn't learn anywhere else?
Speaker 2: Oh, you learn so much because you know, you understand
Speaker 2: what equipment's working, not working, more to our processes. You know,
Speaker 2: it's really important. I was in a store recently that
Speaker 2: had just undertaken a major refurbishment, you know, talking to
Speaker 2: one of the team. You know, she was showing me
Speaker 2: and she'd been in that department for ten plus years,
Speaker 2: really understood customer need and customer traffic, and we're showing
Speaker 2: me some of the frustrations you had with the way
Speaker 2: we approached the layout, and you know, it was very
Speaker 2: quick to sort of listen to that and resolve it.
Speaker 2: In the normal course of business, that might take six, twelve, eighteen,
Speaker 2: twenty four months for that sort of issue to bubble
Speaker 2: up through other channels.
Speaker 4: So that listening is really important.
Speaker 2: And at the end of the day, you know, we're
Speaker 2: all here to serve our customers, no matter what role
Speaker 2: we play in the business, and every customer is important,
Speaker 2: So you know, it's something that I can help with,
Speaker 2: then I'm always happy to do it, even if that's
Speaker 2: just helping someone load some potty mix in the boot
Speaker 2: of their car. But we've got amazingly expert team members
Speaker 2: who usually can dive in and save the day and
Speaker 2: stop me from making a goose of myself.
Speaker 3: I agree.
Speaker 1: Like you're talking about the speed of getting information right
Speaker 1: as well, right the problems like you get them firsthand.
Speaker 3: But so few leaders in your level would do that.
Speaker 3: Why do you think that is?
Speaker 2: Look, I think every organization has a different needs when
Speaker 2: it comes to customers. Some organizations focus on large corporate clients,
Speaker 2: you know, because that's where the majority of the revenue
Speaker 2: comes from, or they've focused on strategic partnerships. I think
Speaker 2: Bunnings is such a ubiquitous part of the Australian psyche
Speaker 2: and community that you know, if you're not a financial
Speaker 2: shareholder in our parent company, West Farmers, and you're definitely
Speaker 2: a social shareholder in Bunnings, and our shares will usually
Speaker 2: sold one sausage of the time on the weekend, and
Speaker 2: you know, I think when people have that connection, there's
Speaker 2: an expectation that we're going to be really interested in
Speaker 2: what their needs are and what interests them and what
Speaker 2: they're going to be doing to make their homes better
Speaker 2: or safer or keep their businesses running. So yeah, for me,
Speaker 2: it's it's about walking the talk and being really connected
Speaker 2: and I think that's at the heart of our sort
Speaker 2: of servant leadership model and our leadership culture at Bunnings.
Speaker 1: So we know that Bunnings has this reputation for being
Speaker 1: down to earth, family vibe is energy.
Speaker 3: And fun at Bunnings. Does it just exist? Was it
Speaker 3: something that you actively work on?
Speaker 2: If you'd ask me that question four years ago, I'd
Speaker 2: have said it just happens because we had a lot
Speaker 2: of experience, a lot of momentum, and then we went
Speaker 2: through the pandemic and you obviously know from your time
Speaker 2: at Virgin just how devastating that period of time was.
Speaker 2: And you know, for us, we went through a period
Speaker 2: of would we be allowed to keep serving customers, would
Speaker 2: we have to close down? You know, to suddenly being
Speaker 2: in accelerated growth because with every Australian and New Zealand
Speaker 2: are working from home, living at home, not being able
Speaker 2: to go out, there was a renewed interest in doing
Speaker 2: everything and anything around the house to stay active physically
Speaker 2: and mentally, so our trading performance really took off. That
Speaker 2: meant we had to recruit lots and lots of people
Speaker 2: tech crews and flight crews from all the airlines and
Speaker 2: people from service industries that weren't able to work somewhere
Speaker 2: else joining the Bunning S team, which was amazing. But
Speaker 2: we recruit as many people in two years as we
Speaker 2: had in a decade prior. And when you think about
Speaker 2: it through the culture lends, and I know that's something
Speaker 2: that is top of mind for you. You see this
Speaker 2: really quick cultural dilution and you don't anticipate that happening,
Speaker 2: But what happens is that you've got to go back
Speaker 2: and actually reset and refocus. So for us now, it's
Speaker 2: a very conscious discipline to make sure that reward and recognition,
Speaker 2: celebrating wrong service, celebrating achievements, recognizing when customers or team
Speaker 2: share with us positive experiences of service or teamwork, that
Speaker 2: we keep that going. And I think by taking the
Speaker 2: work we do seriously but not taking ourselves too seriously,
Speaker 2: I think we do keep the fun very much alive
Speaker 2: as well.
Speaker 1: I've heard the many times in men organizations where people
Speaker 1: go to pitch to the top to the executive team
Speaker 1: to get funding around employee experience or culture, and they
Speaker 1: get our well, what's going to be the ROI and
Speaker 1: investing or prioritizing it, it doesn't get looked at.
Speaker 3: Do you feel that there is a formula for that?
Speaker 3: Is it that you get it?
Speaker 1: Like in terms of people coming to you your team
Speaker 1: and wanting to spend money on things like culture and
Speaker 1: so forth, why is it that you get that. Is
Speaker 1: there a formula that you've got when it comes to investing.
Speaker 2: I think we're always interested in outcomes, right. I think
Speaker 2: if you try and look at things who are pure
Speaker 2: financial lends, particularly when it comes to things relating to
Speaker 2: people and culture, can be really hard to make those
Speaker 2: things stack right. And you'll have seen plenty of that.
Speaker 2: But you know, if we talk to other organizations, we
Speaker 2: talk to the clients of people that are pitching things
Speaker 2: to us and look at and understand the outcomes and
Speaker 2: say do these things fit with where our needs are?
Speaker 2: That's really important. I think the other bit, which sometimes
Speaker 2: can be a challenge, is that people will pitch all
Speaker 2: sorts of things to be organizations because there's a sense
Speaker 2: that there's probably a lot of money that's available if
Speaker 2: something is picked up, and you know, if something's really
Speaker 2: really good, for sure they'll be funding for it. But
Speaker 2: it's also great to work with organizations that do some
Speaker 2: really good due diligence really understand what's the problem I'm
Speaker 2: trying to solve, rather than come and say we've got
Speaker 2: this great program. Because you're unsurprising when you're a pretty
Speaker 2: large organization like Bunning sets we've got pretty well established
Speaker 2: activities and processes that if you didn't know about them
Speaker 2: from the outside looking in, you might say, well, that's
Speaker 2: a real opportunity, but actually we might have something that's
Speaker 2: quite mature or quite evolved. But we are very curious,
Speaker 2: so we're always looking to learn and improve and make
Speaker 2: things better. And I always have a chuckle a whund
Speaker 2: I get, you know, something on LinkedIn from someone you
Speaker 2: know suggesting that you know, wood Bunning is like to
Speaker 2: have a website, and it's like, maybe you should just
Speaker 2: jump online and google us first and see what we're doing.
Speaker 2: But you know, I think it is just finding those
Speaker 2: needs and opportunities and also to out building relationships. And
Speaker 2: I think in any sort of consultancy space, if you've
Speaker 2: got good relationships and that's the opportunity to listen and
Speaker 2: understand where the needs and opportunities are, and that creates
Speaker 2: the opportunity for not only new business, but repeat business
Speaker 2: as well.
Speaker 1: Yeah, look, that's good feedback in terms of I think
Speaker 1: for people who are pitching in that space that it's
Speaker 1: still about outcomes at the end of the day, right,
Speaker 1: I think sometimes that can get through. I do see
Speaker 1: people I've come across in a few organizations where people
Speaker 1: love the CEO, right, So they've got this kind of
Speaker 1: very charismatic CEO, but they're not so fond of, say,
Speaker 1: of the team members.
Speaker 3: Around the CEO.
Speaker 1: So how do you hold your own executive team for
Speaker 1: I guess sharing your values and your passion or the
Speaker 1: way you choose to show up. How do you make
Speaker 1: sure that that happens well.
Speaker 2: One of the challenges of being a CEO is that
Speaker 2: you know everyone it's true of me and my relationship
Speaker 2: with my box. You don't sort of want to put
Speaker 2: forward a poor image of your own performance.
Speaker 4: Now.
Speaker 2: You want to be authentic and you want to own mistakes.
Speaker 2: And I think that really strong, trusting senior executive relationships
Speaker 2: are built around being really open and transparent. So something's
Speaker 2: not right, calling it and accepting that and dealing with
Speaker 2: it is really important. But it is having good listening posts.
Speaker 2: And I think it's having you know people not only
Speaker 2: in your direct team, but around your direct team.
Speaker 4: Who you know and trust. You know who may not be.
Speaker 2: Politically orientated and sort of want to run tales or
Speaker 2: dob people in if something's not right, that they will
Speaker 2: points you to outcomes and activities or situations where you
Speaker 2: might want to look at it and kind of go.
Speaker 2: That's not a standard that I would be comfortable very
Speaker 2: clear with all of my general managers and executive team
Speaker 2: about some of the behaviors that are really important to me,
Speaker 2: you know, so safety and well being of our team,
Speaker 2: the behavior we walk past is the behavior we accept
Speaker 2: the fact that as senior executives, we're on show every
Speaker 2: single day. Like I'm very mindful every time I walk
Speaker 2: into our team cafe and our national support center. You know,
Speaker 2: we'll have people in there who are in doing a
Speaker 2: future leader program, they're our training managers, or have people
Speaker 2: in for a safety course or maybe just being inducted
Speaker 2: into the company. So you want to always make sure
Speaker 2: that you're speaking and engaging and connecting with as many
Speaker 2: people as you can to sort of illustrate the sort
Speaker 2: of style of leadership behavior that you want to see
Speaker 2: from others. And then it's about holding people to account.
Speaker 2: So if you know someone's behaviors aren't right, giving them
Speaker 2: the opportunity to change and involve is important because I
Speaker 2: think everyone has good days and bad days and can
Speaker 2: get things right and get things wrong. But if the
Speaker 2: behavior isn't right, the behavior isn't right over the medium term,
Speaker 2: so not the short term, not the long term, but
Speaker 2: the medium term. Then either we look at whether the
Speaker 2: role is right for the individual or the interview you're
Speaker 2: right for the organization. And you know, there's been plenty of,
Speaker 2: you know times where we've had to have some pretty
Speaker 2: tough conversations where culture hasn't been right and people have
Speaker 2: moved outside the organization because of that.
Speaker 1: I love that answer, Mike, because to me, that's the
Speaker 1: definition of the brave part, right, because I think, you know,
Speaker 1: you having some sort of non negotiables that people have
Speaker 1: to show up for I think is really important. I
Speaker 1: think what happens time and time again, and I hear
Speaker 1: this from a lot of junior staff is yeah that
Speaker 1: they say they believe in this, but then you've got
Speaker 1: somebody in a very senior or who behaves in.
Speaker 3: A very different way.
Speaker 1: They might make the money they might bring, you know
Speaker 1: what I mean, technically operationally they might do the right thing,
Speaker 1: but the way they treat other people as so misaligned
Speaker 1: with the individual I've seen that be the complete slope.
Speaker 3: So I think that's fantastic.
Speaker 1: What about you personally though, Like are there's certain personalities
Speaker 1: you like working with more than others.
Speaker 2: So diversity for me, there's gender balances, there's you know,
Speaker 2: ATSI representation, There's lots of different ways you can sort
Speaker 2: of slice and dice what diversity looks like. But for me,
Speaker 2: diversity is all about diversity of personality and thinking style
Speaker 2: because I think that's what you can build a really,
Speaker 2: really successful team. Sort of switched to a sporting analogy,
Speaker 2: and you know, if everyone wants to be Lewis Hamilton
Speaker 2: and drive the Formula One car, then you're not going
Speaker 2: to have a team. You've got to have engineers who
Speaker 2: have mechanics, that have test drivers, You've got to have
Speaker 2: people engaging with your sponsors and your partners. It truly
Speaker 2: takes a team. If you think about football or netball
Speaker 2: or basketball. You've got people who played defensive roles. You've
Speaker 2: play people who in the middle. You play people who
Speaker 2: are sort of in attacking and goal scoring opportunities. If
Speaker 2: everyone wants to score goals or purely saved goals, and
Speaker 2: again you don't have a team. It's the same in business.
Speaker 2: You need different styles of people with different thinking skills,
Speaker 2: different backgrounds and experiences, different lived experience.
Speaker 4: When you look at a problem or you're working through
Speaker 4: a problem.
Speaker 2: As a team, you're solving it with as many different
Speaker 2: options as you can possibly have. If you've got a
Speaker 2: team that is very much from the same background, not
Speaker 2: a lot of diversity of thinking. Even if you had
Speaker 2: half the room as male and half the room as female,
Speaker 2: chances are you're not going to get the same sort
Speaker 2: of thinking outcomes.
Speaker 4: That you would like.
Speaker 2: So, you know, I like to work with lots of
Speaker 2: different stuf people. But when you peel back a couple
Speaker 2: of layers of the onion, there's some values that have
Speaker 2: to be very aligned, which are all about being really honest,
Speaker 2: not too big for your boots, willing to help other people,
Speaker 2: and willing to have fun.
Speaker 3: So I have to ask you, I love that. I
Speaker 3: think that's great.
Speaker 1: The question is that that might sometimes is easier said
Speaker 1: than done when it comes to hiring this diversity.
Speaker 3: Right, So I get this impression.
Speaker 1: I could be completely wrong that Bunnings is probably not
Speaker 1: obsessed with having the perfect regime in the perfect track record.
Speaker 1: So are you looking for certain things when you hire people?
Speaker 2: It's an it depends answer. So obviously, at the end
Speaker 2: of the day, we're a home improvement outdoor living retailer,
Speaker 2: so we sell hammers and shovels and plants and paint
Speaker 2: and timber and board. You know, they're not particularly complex products, right,
Speaker 2: We're not in a scientific research space. We're not in
Speaker 2: the deep technical areas that many industries are in. So
Speaker 2: for the large majority of the team, we are very
Speaker 2: very focused on making sure that cultural fit is there
Speaker 2: because those teams are going to be working inside big teams,
Speaker 2: as are oranizations grown and matured. We do have very
Speaker 2: deep domain expertise who people in culture, technology, data, property, legal, finance.
Speaker 2: You know, they're we're looking for a combination of strong
Speaker 2: cultural fit and strong technical skills, which can be more challenging.
Speaker 2: So you know, it can mean quite often we're saying
Speaker 2: you know not to someone who even may have a
Speaker 2: fantastic resume, but when we think about the impact of
Speaker 2: that person's style of personality might have on our team,
Speaker 2: the risk is too big. And we have made those
Speaker 2: hiring mistakes in the past, like every organization has. And
Speaker 2: I think no matter how good your selection processes are,
Speaker 2: there'll be people that seemed like a great choice at
Speaker 2: the time that didn't work out the way anyone hopeful them,
Speaker 2: or the organization or their team. So being focused on
Speaker 2: that cultural fit is incredibly important to us.
Speaker 1: So you are universally admired, Mike, and you obviously operate
Speaker 1: and make decisions with a very clear set of values.
Speaker 1: So can you tell me a situation where a decision
Speaker 1: you had to make presented a conflict with your values
Speaker 1: or somewhere you had to make a call we didn't
Speaker 1: feel comfortable with the time, but it served a bigger purpose.
Speaker 2: There are always going to be times where those things occur,
Speaker 2: and I think inevitably it's where your connection and relationship
Speaker 2: with an individual over a long period of time comes
Speaker 2: into conflict with a situation where the values.
Speaker 4: Line has been crossed.
Speaker 2: You know, I've worked with many leaders over many years
Speaker 2: and you might be aware of something going on in
Speaker 2: their personal life or some other challenges that they're facing
Speaker 2: that have manifested in behaviors where either I just can't
Speaker 2: walk past or I've put someone into a role where
Speaker 2: I really think they're going to be able to rise
Speaker 2: to the occasion, really shine and really grow and be successful.
Speaker 2: And when they've got into the role, you know, it's
Speaker 2: become evident to them and to you that it's either
Speaker 2: one promotion too many, or the skills that everyone believes
Speaker 2: that the individual had really aren't there or aren't there
Speaker 2: to the level that they're needed. And you've got to
Speaker 2: make those tough calls. And equally, one of the really
Speaker 2: important parts of my role that I sort of think
Speaker 2: about is how his Bunning is going to be a
Speaker 2: really successful company ten, fifteen, twenty years down the track
Speaker 2: when I no longer hear the foundations that we're building,
Speaker 2: the renovations we're making to our business all the time
Speaker 2: are all designed so that you know, fifteen twenty years
Speaker 2: down the track, the brand has the same levels of
Speaker 2: trust and equity that it has that team want to
Speaker 2: be a part of it. With culture, you know, has
Speaker 2: a really consistent.
Speaker 4: Feel to it.
Speaker 2: It will continue to evolve as cultures do. But how
Speaker 2: can you ensure those things? And that sometimes also means
Speaker 2: reshaping the organization. So you know, sometimes we might have
Speaker 2: someone who's technically very good in their role, culturally very
Speaker 2: good in their role, but is it a stage in
Speaker 2: their career where you know, to leave them in the
Speaker 2: role actually is going to inhibit the organization being more
Speaker 2: successful because either we need to redesign or we need
Speaker 2: to be able to move that individual to other talent
Speaker 2: flow through. So they're never easy conversations to have, but
Speaker 2: I think you can then come back to your value
Speaker 2: set and go, I'm going to have a really honest conversation,
Speaker 2: you know, And I think the individuals, whilst sometimes you know,
Speaker 2: take those conversations to heart and they can be a
Speaker 2: bit emotional, I think when they stop and look back,
Speaker 2: you know, we'll go, I've at least been treated fairly
Speaker 2: and with dignity and with respect, and I can look
Speaker 2: back on that contribution I've made at Bundance in a
Speaker 2: positive way and feel proud of their achievements rather than well,
Speaker 2: I just wasn't valued anymore and I was sort of
Speaker 2: thrown at the door.
Speaker 1: I was just sitting there thinking, I know you've probably
Speaker 1: had many of these conversations in your career, and I
Speaker 1: was wondering, is it's still hard or do you still
Speaker 1: have moments where you think, I really don't want to
Speaker 1: have this conversation, but I've got to.
Speaker 2: Do it every time, And if you don't, that's telling
Speaker 2: you something about your own time in the role, because
Speaker 2: I think if it becomes easy or something that you're
Speaker 2: unphased by, and I don't think you're approaching it. That's
Speaker 2: my personal view. It's a sample size the one, but
Speaker 2: you know, I think it's really important to feel those
Speaker 2: emotions because how do you emphasize with someone who maybe
Speaker 2: you're taking their employment, their career, some of their self
Speaker 2: esteem away by taking away that role. That's a big
Speaker 2: burden and one you shouldn't take lightly.
Speaker 3: Okay.
Speaker 1: I didn't want to spend too much time on your
Speaker 1: journey because I know there's been a number of interviews
Speaker 1: that talked about that, but I did want to sort
Speaker 1: of touch on it a little bit. So you started
Speaker 1: and retail Us young Man at fifteen and moved into
Speaker 1: management traineeships that led you to your career now in
Speaker 1: retail throughout that journey, particularly in your early parts of
Speaker 1: your career, I've no doubt that you faced challenges and
Speaker 1: obstacles along the way. Were there times where you thought
Speaker 1: you might have chosen the wrong path or questioned what
Speaker 1: you were doing? Will sort of had I guess all
Speaker 1: we're sort of self doubt really came in.
Speaker 2: Oh, look absolutely, Look my retail career started largely by accident,
Speaker 2: and I went to university, and he studied to become
Speaker 2: a high school teacher, teaching history in English and pract
Speaker 2: teaching showed me that it wasn't for me, And I
Speaker 2: was really blessed to have a manager back when I
Speaker 2: was a teenager working Thursday, nights and Saturdays who went
Speaker 2: out of her way to help me into a management
Speaker 2: traineeship and also let me finish my university studies. So
Speaker 2: I don't think many people wake up and go, I
Speaker 2: want to be a retail manager when they're at school.
Speaker 2: There's lots of other options and opportunities. But you know,
Speaker 2: for those of us who do pursue this industry, it's
Speaker 2: amazing and create incredible opportunities that I wouldn't have had.
Speaker 2: I don't think in any other industry space. But the
Speaker 2: sort of challenges I faced early in my career were
Speaker 2: you know, there were certainly an age ceiling back in
Speaker 2: the early nineteen nineties. You know, there was a real
Speaker 2: perspective from senior leaders you needed to be a certain
Speaker 2: age to have a certain number of years experience, rather
Speaker 2: than maybe think about things the way we do in
Speaker 2: twenty twenty four, which is more competency based and cultural fit.
Speaker 2: So there was more of a formal hierarchy that you
Speaker 2: needed to work your way through.
Speaker 4: That is why I.
Speaker 2: Left retail for a few years and went to banking.
Speaker 2: I was just frustrated that I couldn't get ahead in
Speaker 2: my career, and it was probably characteristic of a lot
Speaker 2: of young guys and girls in their twenties, you know,
Speaker 2: quite ambitious and wanting to get ahead and build my career.
Speaker 2: And coming back to retail was really because that's where
Speaker 2: I'd found my vocation. I realized that the pace and
Speaker 2: the team focus that retail had was an incredible draw,
Speaker 2: and you know, coming to Bunnings.
Speaker 4: Was really a bit of a values call.
Speaker 2: The company I was working for New Zealand based retail
Speaker 2: companies selling its Australian Army in two thousand and four
Speaker 2: two thousand and five and were selling into Pea, and
Speaker 2: the culture of pe is really different to the culture
Speaker 2: of listed companies, and I didn't like some of the
Speaker 2: things that they were wanting me to do around rationalization
Speaker 2: and coloring job numbers. I'm a job's creation kind of person,
Speaker 2: not a job's reduction kind of person. So I love
Speaker 2: to sort of see growth and people having the opportunities
Speaker 2: that I've been afforded in the industry.
Speaker 4: So I made the.
Speaker 2: Choice to leave them, and there was an opening at Bunnings.
Speaker 2: And I didn't know that much about Bunnings. You know,
Speaker 2: it's well known and well understood now, but in the
Speaker 2: early two thousands in New South Wales it was still
Speaker 2: establishing itself as a brand. It was digesting the BBC
Speaker 2: hardware House acquisition that had been made in two thousand
Speaker 2: and one, so the brand wasn't so well known.
Speaker 4: So having been at.
Speaker 2: My previous three companies through about five years, I thought,
Speaker 2: I'll probably be at Bunnings for four or five years
Speaker 2: and then I'll see where Stereo go from there. And
Speaker 2: I've been around four times that amount of time and
Speaker 2: found something in a company that I fell in love
Speaker 2: with and teammates that I wanted to work with for
Speaker 2: really long periods of time. And so for me, when
Speaker 2: I look back, you've got to believe in yourself. You've
Speaker 2: got to chase your vocation, and you've got to know
Speaker 2: the style of environment that's going to work for you
Speaker 2: and the style of environment is not going to work
Speaker 2: for you.
Speaker 4: And that's probably.
Speaker 2: Informed some of my things looking on, you know, considering
Speaker 2: different opportunities that have presented themselves over the years. You know,
Speaker 2: while I've been at Bunnies, you know what, I'm interested
Speaker 2: in going to work for company X, and you come
Speaker 2: back to those filters and go, actually, what problem I
Speaker 2: trying to solve? Because I'm really happy and satisfied and
Speaker 2: feel amating value where I am.
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's so true.
Speaker 1: When I talk about resilience with leadership, I've kind of
Speaker 1: pivoted to a concept that sort of says that the
Speaker 1: obstacles are the.
Speaker 3: Path right, that you're not going to not face challenges.
Speaker 1: Are you kind of one of these I just pushed
Speaker 1: through the tough times like they come up and I
Speaker 1: just sort of surge ahead. Or is it accepting that
Speaker 1: tough times are coming up and then setting yourself up
Speaker 1: to ride that tough time.
Speaker 2: Look, there's definitely a bit of the Winston Churchill when
Speaker 2: you're going through hell, keep going, you know, I think
Speaker 2: for any leader, but that's often for the unanticipated things
Speaker 2: that come up. You know, who'd have thought in March
Speaker 2: twenty twenty, we'd have been sitting around a board table
Speaker 2: wondering whether we're going to have to shut our company
Speaker 2: down because we didn't know what the government was going
Speaker 2: to do. We didn't know what this disease was going
Speaker 2: to be and what it was going to do to
Speaker 2: the community. So there are those sort of really unexpected moments,
Speaker 2: But there are other things where you kind of go,
Speaker 2: I've seen display out this is going to be really challenging,
Speaker 2: and we're in a very challenging economic period at the moment.
Speaker 2: You know, we've been through these cycles before. We know
Speaker 2: that it's going to be harder than at other times.
Speaker 2: We know we're going to have to be very disciplined
Speaker 2: and very rigorous. But I think you've also got to
Speaker 2: have a positive mindset because if you're going to lead
Speaker 2: a team through these periods it's through gritted teeth, then
Speaker 2: that behavior is going to rub off. I'm a big
Speaker 2: believer in behavior brief behaviors.
Speaker 4: So I think you've got to.
Speaker 2: Bring a even in tough times, bring a positive mindset
Speaker 2: of we've been here before, we know what we.
Speaker 4: Need to do.
Speaker 2: Let's sit to the game plan, and let's celebrate every
Speaker 2: little success we have because that's going to give us
Speaker 2: a sense of achieving the things that we need to
Speaker 2: achieve to move forward.
Speaker 3: I mean COVID was a great example.
Speaker 1: I mean, I know you have to see the chef
Speaker 1: and people would have looked to you for that kind
Speaker 1: of confidence, But you're still a human being. So I'm
Speaker 1: imagining you had a moment where you were like, I
Speaker 1: don't actually have the answers here. I mean, how do
Speaker 1: you personally cope and those kind of moments where you're like,
Speaker 1: I don't have the answer a.
Speaker 2: Couple of different ways. I think one is the support
Speaker 2: network you have around you. I think this is where
Speaker 2: right back at the start of our conversation today, we
Speaker 2: talked about the fact that what is it that can
Speaker 2: sometimes be a challenge for senior executives, you know, in
Speaker 2: terms of vulnerability or authenticity. Some of that is who
Speaker 2: you surround yourself with, right, And I think you need
Speaker 2: friends and family who actually don't care. My kids are
Speaker 2: I hope are proud of what I do, but they
Speaker 2: certainly don't care about the fact that I run a
Speaker 2: big company on dat right, and I'm there to solve
Speaker 2: DA issues, not company issues, and give them my time
Speaker 2: and attention. And you know, you've got great mates, you know,
Speaker 2: who have nothing to do with business world. They're in
Speaker 2: all sorts of different spaces and they keep you very grounded.
Speaker 2: So I think that's really important and challenging times, you've
Speaker 2: got to support base. I think being transparent that you
Speaker 2: don't necessarily have the answers is important, but you're in
Speaker 2: search of the answers is equally important because if you
Speaker 2: sort of go, oh, I don't know, I don't know
Speaker 2: what we're going to do, and then you sort of
Speaker 2: leave it there. But if you sort of come at
Speaker 2: it from this is a really unique problem or challenge
Speaker 2: and something we haven't faced before. I'm really need to
Speaker 2: hear different perspectives and ideas and just start throw those around.
Speaker 2: Your own innate experience will start to kick back in
Speaker 2: and you'll go, oh, that's going to make sense, and
Speaker 2: that's going to make sense if we bring those two
Speaker 2: things together, and sometimes our jobs as CEOs isn't to
Speaker 2: make the decision. It's just to enable other people to
Speaker 2: get on and do things. So you'll see, you know,
Speaker 2: someone will come up a great idea and you know
Speaker 2: that makes absolute sense to me, Just get on and
Speaker 2: do it. All you've then done is empower someone else.
Speaker 2: So it might appear like you've made the decision, but
Speaker 2: actually the reality, you're just getting out of the way
Speaker 2: so that the people who are better equipped to deal
Speaker 2: with it could get on and deal with it.
Speaker 3: I don't have the statement is true at all.
Speaker 1: I haven't researched any of this to know, but a
Speaker 1: lot of people I speak to your seers I speak
Speaker 1: to who do have a very similar humble approach to
Speaker 1: you towards leadership, have themselves overcome adversity often when they
Speaker 1: were growing up to kind of live with the playing field.
Speaker 3: Is that true of you as well?
Speaker 4: Yeah? Absolutely.
Speaker 2: I think I grew up in a household where my
Speaker 2: dad was very sick. He wasn't able to work, so
Speaker 2: he was on an invalid pension, so you can imagine
Speaker 2: that money was pretty scarce, and the joy of the
Speaker 2: seventies was there was no social media.
Speaker 4: There was no.
Speaker 2: It was very hard to know what other people were
Speaker 2: up to because there was no easy way to compare.
Speaker 2: You really compared yourself to the kids in your street
Speaker 2: or the kids in your classroom. And my mum did
Speaker 2: an amazing job of making sure that we were always
Speaker 2: dressed as well as we could be, even if it
Speaker 2: was secondhand or third hand clothing, and they worked really
Speaker 2: hard to make sure my brother and I had a
Speaker 2: good education, but there wasn't a lot.
Speaker 4: And equally, in.
Speaker 2: The early years of high school, I was bullied quite badly,
Speaker 2: and bullying in the nineteen eighties was all very physical
Speaker 2: because you had no social media bullying, and the bullying today,
Speaker 2: I think is much worse because it's harder to see,
Speaker 2: and I think when it does manifest itself physically, it's
Speaker 2: usually an incredibly tragic and dramatic ways.
Speaker 4: You know.
Speaker 2: The two things for me, you know, probably have helped
Speaker 2: me be very strong around sort of how people are treated.
Speaker 2: I think when we say treat other people the way
Speaker 2: we want to be treated, it falls short of the mark.
Speaker 2: You know, if we treat other people the way we
Speaker 2: want to see our loved ones treated, the bar raises
Speaker 2: pretty quickly because I think in any given day, we
Speaker 2: all put up with stuff. Whether it's the coffee wasn't
Speaker 2: great at the coffee shop, or the train was running
Speaker 2: late or the queue was long. We all absorb things
Speaker 2: that upset us from time time. I think subconsciously that
Speaker 2: can sometimes create the excuse that we cannot be at
Speaker 2: our best around other people. Because I've had to put
Speaker 2: up with some rubbish today, someone else is going to
Speaker 2: put up with some If I have put up with rubbish,
Speaker 2: so be it. If I see someone not being nice
Speaker 2: to my wife or my children, then that brings out
Speaker 2: a whole different side of your personality because you move
Speaker 2: into a different mode. And I think it's the same
Speaker 2: in the workplace. If every team member gets created the
Speaker 2: way what are my kids to get treated when they
Speaker 2: work at Bunnies, then maybe they're going to be a
Speaker 2: better organization than one.
Speaker 4: Down the road.
Speaker 2: I'm the sort of doing it tough, you know, growing up.
Speaker 2: You know, I'm very very mindful of the importance of work.
Speaker 2: You know the importance of creating jobs for people. Because
Speaker 2: if you can work, you can contribute to a household,
Speaker 2: you can pay rent, you can pay a mortgage, but
Speaker 2: you need to have that job in the first place,
Speaker 2: and I think not just a transactional job where you're
Speaker 2: here for five minutes, but a job where you can
Speaker 2: put down to riots and grow should you choose to
Speaker 2: and build a long.
Speaker 4: Term successful career.
Speaker 2: I think helps create financial stability and plays a really
Speaker 2: positive role in the economy and in the lives of
Speaker 2: people as well.
Speaker 1: Thank you for sharing about what happened and being bully,
Speaker 1: because I suppose for a lot of people who have
Speaker 1: had that experience, it could go one way or the other. Right,
Speaker 1: you could either be angry at the world or can
Speaker 1: channel it towards better So what's an opportunity you said
Speaker 1: no to in the past that you would say yes
Speaker 1: to today or you wish you'd said yes to.
Speaker 4: Wow, that's a great question.
Speaker 2: I was often investment in tea tree farms back when
Speaker 2: I worked in the bank, and I couldn't afford it.
Speaker 2: To be truth was in there the money to do
Speaker 2: it looked like a great idea at the time, and
Speaker 2: then the tax office came after everyone that had invested
Speaker 2: in it, so I felt like I dodged.
Speaker 4: A board on that one.
Speaker 2: I probably don't sort of live with a lot of
Speaker 2: regret of things that I wouldn't have done. I might
Speaker 2: have made some decisions a little bit earlier, and I
Speaker 2: certainly would have probably taken the opportunity to travel more
Speaker 2: when I was younger, had I been able to. I
Speaker 2: watched a lot of friends do that. You know, I
Speaker 2: love that movie Sliding Doors, though, right I think I'm
Speaker 2: a tribal every and if every decision we make has
Speaker 2: a knock on effect. So you know, for all of
Speaker 2: the things that maybe I didn't do, maybe I wouldn't
Speaker 2: be doing this today, maybe we do something completely different
Speaker 2: just as happy and settled, or maybe I wouldn't be.
Speaker 2: But I sort of try to make the most of
Speaker 2: every day and every opportunity and not live with too
Speaker 2: much second guessing about the ones that got away.
Speaker 1: What's something you're aware about yourself now that you just
Speaker 1: simply weren't into the beginning of your career.
Speaker 2: Definitely why I've always wanted to Where that ambition to
Speaker 2: do bigger, broader roles came from. When I go back
Speaker 2: to being a training manager, I remember going to Target
Speaker 2: seat office. It was in I was based in Sydney
Speaker 2: and their head office at the time was in Geelong
Speaker 2: and Victoria and I remember sitting in the managing director's
Speaker 2: office with a whole lot of other training managers, going
Speaker 2: I want this job one day.
Speaker 4: This looks really cool.
Speaker 2: He's got a nice car and a big office, and
Speaker 2: you know, I catch the train and the trend to
Speaker 2: work now and we have no officers at all. So
Speaker 2: things have changed a lot in forty years. But you know,
Speaker 2: I think understanding my purpose and the why behind the
Speaker 2: things I do is something that took a really long
Speaker 2: time to get to and certainly took a lot of
Speaker 2: working with really skillful coaches and mentors to help me
Speaker 2: sort of unpack that.
Speaker 3: They're nice. So do you still have your own coach?
Speaker 2: I have a few different ones and more probably more
Speaker 2: mentors now and a few years ago. There are a
Speaker 2: few different things going on outside of work for me.
Speaker 2: Someone may be observation that you know, people come into
Speaker 2: your life for a reason or a season, and you know,
Speaker 2: I think when it comes to mentors, there's usually a reason,
Speaker 2: you know why you sort of seek out different skill
Speaker 2: sets and perspectives, and you know, the people that give
Speaker 2: me that guidance and counsel are just incredibly generous with
Speaker 2: their time and learn from them and hopefully you know,
Speaker 2: we'll have the opportunity one day to sort of pay
Speaker 2: that back as well.
Speaker 3: Love it, Love it. And lastly, what is the bravest
Speaker 3: thing you've ever done.
Speaker 2: It's probably been when I've made the decision to walk away,
Speaker 2: whether it's been a relationship or a role, you know,
Speaker 2: because you know, ultimately that's saying that, you know, ships
Speaker 2: weren't built to be in a harbor?
Speaker 4: Is it really true? One? Right?
Speaker 2: And I think sometimes we can find ourselves in a
Speaker 2: comfort zone, or something's become a habit and relationships become
Speaker 2: a habit rather than a relationship, or you're in a
Speaker 2: job that is a job, it's not.
Speaker 4: A vokay, so it's not a career. I think when.
Speaker 2: You have that moment where you go, I'm going to
Speaker 2: back myself to make a break here and make a
Speaker 2: move and do something different. And when I've looked back
Speaker 2: at those that's probably the moments where you kind of go,
Speaker 2: I should have probably done that a couple of years earlier.
Speaker 2: I should have been more confident. But again it's slight
Speaker 2: indoor moments, right, And you know, if I had not
Speaker 2: made the jump. When I made the jump, then making
Speaker 2: a jump from the warehouse group and lots of shares
Speaker 2: on offer from a private equity company. It all sounded
Speaker 2: great to a lesser rolling from a national role to
Speaker 2: a state role. It felt like it began at the time.
Speaker 2: But you know, when I look back at it now,
Speaker 2: it was the most obvious choice to make. But it's
Speaker 2: easy to say that twenty years later when you're in
Speaker 2: a really different leadership space.
Speaker 3: That's a great answer.
Speaker 1: A lot of people who I'll talk to will often
Speaker 1: point the finger at say, my lead is not treating
Speaker 1: me well, or the organization's not treating me well.
Speaker 3: But having that bravery to make that call for yourself, right.
Speaker 1: If it's not sitting with your in a line of
Speaker 1: your values, or you're not feeling joy and actually happy
Speaker 1: doing it every day or at least a lot of
Speaker 1: the time, making that brave decision so fantastic fun.
Speaker 4: Everyone's life of books.
Speaker 2: Some books are really lots and lots of pages, and
Speaker 2: some are really short lives, right, And you don't want
Speaker 2: to get to the end of it in the form
Speaker 2: where in any way, regardless of your beliefs of what
Speaker 2: it looks like after you pass away, but you want
Speaker 2: to get the end of it and go. I wish
Speaker 2: I've done all these other things. If it's there to
Speaker 2: be leaved right, and you know, if you can put
Speaker 2: as many lifetimes into the one you've got, then you're
Speaker 2: doing a pretty good job.
Speaker 1: I think amazing we're at time, but that has been
Speaker 1: a fantastic time chating with you.
Speaker 3: I hope you never leave Bunnings. I hope that you're
Speaker 3: still there when my kids grow up and they can
Speaker 3: start working there. Because I love your attitude, I love
Speaker 3: all of us. So thank you so much for taking
Speaker 3: the time.
Speaker 4: What pleasure.
Speaker 3: Great chatting with you.
Speaker 1: Mike.
Speaker 4: Likewise, Thanks Emma,