1 00:00:04,019 --> 00:00:06,540 Sean Aylmer: Welcome to the Fear and Greed daily interview. I'm Sean 2 00:00:06,630 --> 00:00:10,799 Sean Aylmer: Aylmer. Managing expenses for a business can be notoriously messy. 3 00:00:10,800 --> 00:00:14,849 Sean Aylmer: Receipts everywhere, approvals being sought, reimbursements being made. So it 4 00:00:14,849 --> 00:00:17,400 Sean Aylmer: was only a matter of time before technology streamlined the 5 00:00:17,400 --> 00:00:22,020 Sean Aylmer: whole process. This is where Expensify came in. The NASDAQ listed company 6 00:00:22,020 --> 00:00:25,020 Sean Aylmer: started 15 years ago and now covers expense management and 7 00:00:25,020 --> 00:00:29,639 Sean Aylmer: reporting, company credit cards, bill paying, invoicing, payroll, and travel 8 00:00:29,639 --> 00:00:33,928 Sean Aylmer: management. It's a fascinating business. Anu Muralidharan is the Chief 9 00:00:33,929 --> 00:00:37,589 Sean Aylmer: Operating Officer at Expensify and joins me from the US. 10 00:00:37,979 --> 00:00:39,300 Sean Aylmer: Anu, welcome to Fear and Greed. 11 00:00:39,960 --> 00:00:40,979 Anu Muralidharan: Thank you for having me. 12 00:00:41,430 --> 00:00:43,110 Sean Aylmer: Now, one of your colleagues will be speaking at the 13 00:00:43,110 --> 00:00:47,399 Sean Aylmer: Accounting Business Expo on the 14th and 15th of March in Melbourne, 14 00:00:47,400 --> 00:00:50,098 Sean Aylmer: which is a supporter of this podcast. The topic of 15 00:00:50,098 --> 00:00:55,770 Sean Aylmer: the keynote is Expensify's three life goals; living rich, having fun, 16 00:00:56,040 --> 00:00:59,250 Sean Aylmer: saving the world. Certainly aiming high, Anu. 17 00:01:00,660 --> 00:01:03,600 Anu Muralidharan: Yeah, no one's ever accused us of not being ambitious. 18 00:01:04,469 --> 00:01:06,570 Sean Aylmer: Definitely. So tell me about those goals. 19 00:01:06,900 --> 00:01:10,529 Anu Muralidharan: Yeah, so a whole lot of what we do here 20 00:01:10,529 --> 00:01:14,790 Anu Muralidharan: at Expensify, although we are building this platform which is 21 00:01:14,970 --> 00:01:20,130 Anu Muralidharan: about managing expenses, tracking expenses better, making the job of 22 00:01:20,190 --> 00:01:23,429 Anu Muralidharan: accountants and admins a little bit better, all of it 23 00:01:23,429 --> 00:01:27,179 Anu Muralidharan: sounds mundane, right? No one could ever say, " You're building 24 00:01:27,179 --> 00:01:31,470 Anu Muralidharan: an expense reporting software. What a glamorous thing to do." That's not 25 00:01:31,470 --> 00:01:35,069 Anu Muralidharan: going to happen. But we don't see our role as 26 00:01:35,069 --> 00:01:39,869 Anu Muralidharan: building this product which helps people track expenses. Rather, we 27 00:01:39,870 --> 00:01:43,770 Anu Muralidharan: see this as a role that we play in helping 28 00:01:43,770 --> 00:01:48,480 Anu Muralidharan: people do less mundane tasks with their time so that 29 00:01:48,480 --> 00:01:51,420 Anu Muralidharan: we can free up that time for them to pursue 30 00:01:51,630 --> 00:01:54,990 Anu Muralidharan: bigger goals, for them to pursue the little joys of 31 00:01:54,990 --> 00:01:58,080 Anu Muralidharan: their life even, like throwing a ball around with your 32 00:01:58,080 --> 00:02:01,500 Anu Muralidharan: kid or playing with your dog or sharing a glass 33 00:02:01,500 --> 00:02:06,299 Anu Muralidharan: of wine with your spouse. Everything that you believe is 34 00:02:06,300 --> 00:02:09,180 Anu Muralidharan: joyful in your life, we give you more time to 35 00:02:09,180 --> 00:02:11,130 Anu Muralidharan: do those things. And so that's kind of how we 36 00:02:11,130 --> 00:02:14,760 Anu Muralidharan: approach it. And expense tracking is just one of the 37 00:02:14,760 --> 00:02:17,160 Anu Muralidharan: mundane things you do in your life, which we are 38 00:02:17,160 --> 00:02:22,049 Anu Muralidharan: currently eliminating. But our goal really is to make communication 39 00:02:22,049 --> 00:02:26,160 Anu Muralidharan: with your colleagues, communication with your friends and family, financial 40 00:02:26,160 --> 00:02:28,800 Anu Muralidharan: transactions that you engage in on a day- to- day 41 00:02:28,800 --> 00:02:33,389 Anu Muralidharan: basis smoother, remove all the friction that exists in the 42 00:02:33,389 --> 00:02:37,559 Anu Muralidharan: various touchpoints of such transactions. So all of that is 43 00:02:37,559 --> 00:02:40,620 Anu Muralidharan: time returned to you that you can do amazing things with. 44 00:02:41,129 --> 00:02:43,800 Sean Aylmer: What a great idea. Now look, Expensify has a really 45 00:02:43,800 --> 00:02:47,100 Sean Aylmer: interesting beginning. I went onto the website and the founder 46 00:02:47,100 --> 00:02:49,709 Sean Aylmer: of the company is a guy called David Barrett. And 47 00:02:49,710 --> 00:02:53,039 Sean Aylmer: he lived in a neighbourhood where there was a lot 48 00:02:53,040 --> 00:02:56,190 Sean Aylmer: of homeless people or at least homes without people in them, 49 00:02:56,460 --> 00:02:59,609 Sean Aylmer: and he was inspired to start Expensify. Just tell us 50 00:02:59,609 --> 00:03:02,040 Sean Aylmer: about that and how he went from that initial goal 51 00:03:02,040 --> 00:03:03,480 Sean Aylmer: to creating Expensify. 52 00:03:04,530 --> 00:03:08,820 Anu Muralidharan: Yeah, it's a pretty crazy story. So he had just 53 00:03:08,820 --> 00:03:12,150 Anu Muralidharan: sold another company before, and so he was sort of 54 00:03:12,150 --> 00:03:16,500 Anu Muralidharan: in between jobs, if you will. And he'd always wanted 55 00:03:16,500 --> 00:03:21,389 Anu Muralidharan: to do something that was more sustainable than simply giving 56 00:03:21,389 --> 00:03:24,990 Anu Muralidharan: money to people that are in need. And so the 57 00:03:24,990 --> 00:03:29,459 Anu Muralidharan: idea, he's one of your classic real engineers that believes 58 00:03:29,460 --> 00:03:32,279 Anu Muralidharan: there's an engineering problem to every one of these kinds 59 00:03:32,280 --> 00:03:36,839 Anu Muralidharan: of issues. So entirely in an expected fashion, he built 60 00:03:36,840 --> 00:03:43,260 Anu Muralidharan: this platform that allowed him to load up dollars into 61 00:03:43,290 --> 00:03:48,059 Anu Muralidharan: cards, so like Visa, Mastercards, and then put controls on 62 00:03:48,059 --> 00:03:51,209 Anu Muralidharan: where that card can be spent, and then putting those 63 00:03:51,210 --> 00:03:54,570 Anu Muralidharan: cards in people's hands so that they can spend that 64 00:03:54,570 --> 00:03:59,040 Anu Muralidharan: money responsibly on food as opposed to on drugs or 65 00:03:59,310 --> 00:04:02,280 Anu Muralidharan: alcohol, et cetera. So this was just his value system 66 00:04:02,280 --> 00:04:04,860 Anu Muralidharan: that he wanted to bring them the resources to buy 67 00:04:04,860 --> 00:04:07,920 Anu Muralidharan: food and make sure that it wasn't abused in any 68 00:04:07,920 --> 00:04:12,630 Anu Muralidharan: way. Now the thing that you should know about just 69 00:04:12,990 --> 00:04:17,640 Anu Muralidharan: banks and card companies like card networks is if they 70 00:04:17,640 --> 00:04:21,059 Anu Muralidharan: don't think that the product you're building has a business 71 00:04:21,059 --> 00:04:24,000 Anu Muralidharan: model behind it, they will actually don't care that you're 72 00:04:24,000 --> 00:04:26,729 Anu Muralidharan: paying them money. They will pull it. They believe that 73 00:04:26,730 --> 00:04:29,609 Anu Muralidharan: these kinds of platforms should be built in order for 74 00:04:29,609 --> 00:04:32,550 Anu Muralidharan: people to launch programs that have some sort of viable 75 00:04:32,550 --> 00:04:36,600 Anu Muralidharan: business plan because just like money, enablement networks have a 76 00:04:36,600 --> 00:04:39,360 Anu Muralidharan: lot of risk built into them. So for fair reasons, 77 00:04:39,900 --> 00:04:44,400 Anu Muralidharan: they're a little concerned about that. So down the line, he 78 00:04:44,400 --> 00:04:47,400 Anu Muralidharan: needed to build a business case so he could keep 79 00:04:47,400 --> 00:04:51,180 Anu Muralidharan: those cards working and keep his platform running. And so 80 00:04:51,180 --> 00:04:55,469 Anu Muralidharan: for that, he built this expense tracking software, like the 81 00:04:55,470 --> 00:04:57,690 Anu Muralidharan: barest bones version of it back in the day, but 82 00:04:57,779 --> 00:05:00,659 Anu Muralidharan: expense tracking software. And his entire business case was, " I'm 83 00:05:00,660 --> 00:05:04,169 Anu Muralidharan: building this for companies actually. That's why I need these 84 00:05:04,170 --> 00:05:06,869 Anu Muralidharan: cards to keep working." And they kind of were happy 85 00:05:06,869 --> 00:05:10,049 Anu Muralidharan: with that explanation. Then he happened to present it at 86 00:05:10,050 --> 00:05:14,368 Anu Muralidharan: TechCrunch, and what he noticed was by and large people 87 00:05:14,370 --> 00:05:17,099 Anu Muralidharan: would walk up to him and say how shitty their 88 00:05:17,099 --> 00:05:22,259 Anu Muralidharan: existing expense product is that their company has adopted and how much 89 00:05:22,260 --> 00:05:25,110 Anu Muralidharan: time it saves them to use this product, and they 90 00:05:25,110 --> 00:05:27,810 Anu Muralidharan: wish that this product was live so they could use 91 00:05:27,810 --> 00:05:31,680 Anu Muralidharan: it. And just over and over and over again, people ended 92 00:05:31,680 --> 00:05:33,839 Anu Muralidharan: up talking to him about how much this would improve 93 00:05:33,839 --> 00:05:37,080 Anu Muralidharan: their life. And so he actually kind of pivoted and 94 00:05:37,139 --> 00:05:39,809 Anu Muralidharan: launched the company and he never really intended to do 95 00:05:39,809 --> 00:05:42,779 Anu Muralidharan: it in the first place, but all the feedback inspired 96 00:05:42,779 --> 00:05:45,570 Anu Muralidharan: him to do it. And our growth story kind of 97 00:05:45,570 --> 00:05:49,800 Anu Muralidharan: continues from there. We are the first platform that built 98 00:05:49,830 --> 00:05:54,599 Anu Muralidharan: an expense management application with the employee in mind and 99 00:05:54,599 --> 00:05:59,610 Anu Muralidharan: not the company as our first priority. And that sounds 100 00:05:59,850 --> 00:06:03,330 Anu Muralidharan: so dramatically simple and intuitive, but that's the opposite of 101 00:06:03,330 --> 00:06:06,720 Anu Muralidharan: what everybody else was doing then and continue to do 102 00:06:06,720 --> 00:06:10,409 Anu Muralidharan: today. Because you sell the software to companies and companies 103 00:06:10,410 --> 00:06:13,559 Anu Muralidharan: pay you, so you just think you need to build 104 00:06:13,559 --> 00:06:16,229 Anu Muralidharan: whatever this one decision maker needs so that they can 105 00:06:16,230 --> 00:06:19,289 Anu Muralidharan: say yes to the product. We, on the other hand, 106 00:06:19,350 --> 00:06:23,760 Anu Muralidharan: built all these features that make employees' lives easier. And 107 00:06:23,760 --> 00:06:26,099 Anu Muralidharan: we went a little bit further and said employees can 108 00:06:26,099 --> 00:06:30,150 Anu Muralidharan: adopt this for free and their company needn't say yes 109 00:06:30,150 --> 00:06:32,279 Anu Muralidharan: right off the bat. They can use it and then 110 00:06:32,279 --> 00:06:37,140 Anu Muralidharan: submit via email to their companies. So most people actually 111 00:06:37,140 --> 00:06:41,490 Anu Muralidharan: adopted the free product and slowly a revolution so to 112 00:06:41,490 --> 00:06:44,070 Anu Muralidharan: speak would happen within the company where everybody would be 113 00:06:44,070 --> 00:06:46,289 Anu Muralidharan: using the product, but the company had never heard of 114 00:06:46,290 --> 00:06:51,059 Anu Muralidharan: us. And slowly company decision makers would say, " What is 115 00:06:51,059 --> 00:06:53,339 Anu Muralidharan: this thing? Why am I getting these emails from everybody 116 00:06:53,339 --> 00:06:56,820 Anu Muralidharan: now?" And then when employees said, " Oh, well, actually, we're 117 00:06:56,820 --> 00:06:58,440 Anu Muralidharan: all using this app, it makes our life easier. We're 118 00:06:58,440 --> 00:07:01,320 Anu Muralidharan: saving a ton of time," the company would adopt us. 119 00:07:01,320 --> 00:07:04,259 Anu Muralidharan: So that's actually how we ended up growing. Very viral, 120 00:07:04,260 --> 00:07:05,160 Anu Muralidharan: very word of mouth. 121 00:07:05,790 --> 00:07:07,770 Sean Aylmer: Stay with me, Anu. We'll be back in a minute. 122 00:07:14,070 --> 00:07:17,760 Sean Aylmer: My guest this morning is Anu Muralidharan, Chief Operating Officer 123 00:07:17,790 --> 00:07:21,479 Sean Aylmer: of Expensify. So I mean, I think it's a good point, 124 00:07:22,110 --> 00:07:24,210 Sean Aylmer: an example at this point. And I remember when I 125 00:07:24,210 --> 00:07:28,350 Sean Aylmer: used to have to fill expense reimbursement forms in, the 126 00:07:28,350 --> 00:07:31,950 Sean Aylmer: idea of being able to scan the docket, suddenly that 127 00:07:31,950 --> 00:07:34,590 Sean Aylmer: revolutionised how I did my expenses. It just made life 128 00:07:34,590 --> 00:07:38,790 Sean Aylmer: so much easier. And that was actually your company, Expensify 129 00:07:38,790 --> 00:07:40,680 Sean Aylmer: was the first to introduce scanning of dockets. 130 00:07:41,040 --> 00:07:41,310 Anu Muralidharan: That's right. 131 00:07:41,820 --> 00:07:44,670 Sean Aylmer: So they're the sorts of things though that when you talk 132 00:07:44,670 --> 00:07:47,519 Sean Aylmer: about making it easier for employees, it's that type of thing. 133 00:07:48,420 --> 00:07:52,350 Anu Muralidharan: Exactly. Like employees don't need a whole lot because the 134 00:07:52,410 --> 00:07:55,110 Anu Muralidharan: use case is pretty simple, right? You travel or you 135 00:07:55,110 --> 00:07:58,980 Anu Muralidharan: spend for whatever reason on behalf of the company, you 136 00:07:58,980 --> 00:08:02,279 Anu Muralidharan: just need to make sure that spend makes it into 137 00:08:02,280 --> 00:08:05,340 Anu Muralidharan: a platform, submit it to the right person. And if 138 00:08:05,340 --> 00:08:08,880 Anu Muralidharan: that right person thinks that anytime you submit such an expense, 139 00:08:08,880 --> 00:08:11,130 Anu Muralidharan: you should add a description or you should add a 140 00:08:11,130 --> 00:08:14,309 Anu Muralidharan: comment or you should categorise it, if they want something 141 00:08:14,309 --> 00:08:17,460 Anu Muralidharan: like that every single time so you can get reimbursed fast, 142 00:08:17,759 --> 00:08:19,679 Anu Muralidharan: then you want this product to just kind of tell 143 00:08:19,679 --> 00:08:22,229 Anu Muralidharan: you what that is. So you don't have to think 144 00:08:22,469 --> 00:08:25,200 Anu Muralidharan: about this or text someone and ask them and then 145 00:08:25,200 --> 00:08:27,030 Anu Muralidharan: come back and do it. So your use case is 146 00:08:27,030 --> 00:08:29,490 Anu Muralidharan: very simple. So we just had to kind of build 147 00:08:29,490 --> 00:08:31,800 Anu Muralidharan: it from the ground up with the employees' use case 148 00:08:31,800 --> 00:08:35,098 Anu Muralidharan: in mind and every other bell and whistle out there 149 00:08:35,490 --> 00:08:38,340 Anu Muralidharan: caters to the company, but the employees also kind of 150 00:08:38,340 --> 00:08:40,950 Anu Muralidharan: don't care, so long as their work is done fast. 151 00:08:41,670 --> 00:08:46,410 Sean Aylmer: The business is almost an offshoot from what David Barrett was initially 152 00:08:46,500 --> 00:08:50,880 Sean Aylmer: thinking about. Does that whole social conscience still live on 153 00:08:50,880 --> 00:08:51,689 Sean Aylmer: in Expensify? 154 00:08:52,620 --> 00:08:56,578 Anu Muralidharan: It does. Actually, it's ironic that it started with that 155 00:08:56,580 --> 00:09:00,540 Anu Muralidharan: social conscience and then now we've kind of come full 156 00:09:00,540 --> 00:09:04,860 Anu Muralidharan: circle back to it. And the way that we envision 157 00:09:04,860 --> 00:09:07,679 Anu Muralidharan: making a change to society isn't, like I said, even 158 00:09:07,679 --> 00:09:09,330 Anu Muralidharan: from the beginning, this was the whole reason he built 159 00:09:09,330 --> 00:09:12,240 Anu Muralidharan: a card platform as opposed to giving people money, we 160 00:09:12,240 --> 00:09:17,789 Anu Muralidharan: want to build sustainable change. And it needn't be massive. 161 00:09:17,789 --> 00:09:20,370 Anu Muralidharan: Like although it says save the world, you don't save 162 00:09:20,370 --> 00:09:23,968 Anu Muralidharan: the world overnight. You save the world iteratively by taking 163 00:09:23,970 --> 00:09:27,450 Anu Muralidharan: little pieces of action that has a small change, small 164 00:09:27,450 --> 00:09:30,000 Anu Muralidharan: effect in one part of society, and then it kind 165 00:09:30,000 --> 00:09:33,509 Anu Muralidharan: of grows, right? That's the way to affect any kind of major change. 166 00:09:33,509 --> 00:09:36,480 Anu Muralidharan: So what we want to build, and in a sense 167 00:09:36,480 --> 00:09:38,850 Anu Muralidharan: we have already but we want to expand the use 168 00:09:38,850 --> 00:09:42,358 Anu Muralidharan: case and make it more known, is a platform that 169 00:09:42,360 --> 00:09:47,130 Anu Muralidharan: enables very easy collaboration. So for instance, what I mean 170 00:09:47,130 --> 00:09:50,009 Anu Muralidharan: by that is say a couple of people in your 171 00:09:50,009 --> 00:09:53,309 Anu Muralidharan: local community want to get together because they want to 172 00:09:53,309 --> 00:09:56,640 Anu Muralidharan: fight climate change or they want to build, say, a 173 00:09:56,640 --> 00:10:01,500 Anu Muralidharan: small green paradise for each other. They want to do 174 00:10:01,500 --> 00:10:04,409 Anu Muralidharan: something small, but something that has some sort of material 175 00:10:04,410 --> 00:10:07,679 Anu Muralidharan: change to the quality of life in their neighbourhood. What doesn't 176 00:10:07,679 --> 00:10:10,348 Anu Muralidharan: exist today is some kind of platform that allows them 177 00:10:10,350 --> 00:10:14,100 Anu Muralidharan: all to come together, plan, put in money based on 178 00:10:14,100 --> 00:10:17,699 Anu Muralidharan: whatever plan they develop, spend that money, have accountability for 179 00:10:17,700 --> 00:10:20,610 Anu Muralidharan: how that money was spent, look at the impact of 180 00:10:20,610 --> 00:10:23,429 Anu Muralidharan: what they did, share photos and sort of come full 181 00:10:23,429 --> 00:10:26,250 Anu Muralidharan: circle and maybe do a debrief at the end for 182 00:10:26,250 --> 00:10:28,710 Anu Muralidharan: what worked and what didn't work, and then have continuity. 183 00:10:28,920 --> 00:10:33,870 Anu Muralidharan: That's the sort of collaboration that we want to make easier, 184 00:10:34,200 --> 00:10:37,170 Anu Muralidharan: along with the financial transactions that go along with it 185 00:10:37,470 --> 00:10:41,220 Anu Muralidharan: via our platform. And if you stretch that out further, 186 00:10:41,790 --> 00:10:45,478 Anu Muralidharan: people all over the world could come together and do 187 00:10:45,480 --> 00:10:49,170 Anu Muralidharan: something together. And we want to create also this aspect 188 00:10:49,170 --> 00:10:52,290 Anu Muralidharan: of discovery within our platform. But if we share the 189 00:10:52,290 --> 00:10:54,690 Anu Muralidharan: same passion for doing something, we could come together on 190 00:10:54,690 --> 00:10:56,970 Anu Muralidharan: this platform to do it. And you live in Australia 191 00:10:57,360 --> 00:10:59,910 Anu Muralidharan: and I live in Oakland, and it doesn't matter. The 192 00:10:59,910 --> 00:11:03,240 Anu Muralidharan: platform enables a connection. Like that's the sort of thing 193 00:11:03,240 --> 00:11:03,718 Anu Muralidharan: we want to do. 194 00:11:03,719 --> 00:11:07,050 Sean Aylmer: Anu, it's a great story. Thank you for talking to Fear 195 00:11:07,050 --> 00:11:07,559 Sean Aylmer: and Greed. 196 00:11:07,980 --> 00:11:09,449 Anu Muralidharan: Thank you so much for the opportunity. 197 00:11:10,080 --> 00:11:15,120 Sean Aylmer: That was Anu Muralidharan, Chief Operating Officer of Expensify. Expensify will 198 00:11:15,120 --> 00:11:17,968 Sean Aylmer: be at the Accounting Business Expo in Melbourne on March 199 00:11:18,000 --> 00:11:21,030 Sean Aylmer: 14 and 15, which is a supporter of this podcast. 200 00:11:21,150 --> 00:11:24,479 Sean Aylmer: Just search Accounting Business Expo for more. This is the 201 00:11:24,480 --> 00:11:26,640 Sean Aylmer: Fear and Greed daily interview. Join us every morning for 202 00:11:26,640 --> 00:11:29,010 Sean Aylmer: the full episode of Fear and Greed, Australia's most popular 203 00:11:29,010 --> 00:11:31,858 Sean Aylmer: business podcast. I'm Sean Aylmer. Enjoy your day.