1 00:00:05,881 --> 00:00:16,480 Speaker 1: Appoche Production, Welcome to Real Crime with Adam shand I'm 2 00:00:16,481 --> 00:00:19,721 Speaker 1: your host Adam Shand. The impact of crime goes far 3 00:00:19,801 --> 00:00:23,121 Speaker 1: beyond the immediate family and loved ones of a victim. 4 00:00:23,401 --> 00:00:27,081 Speaker 1: The effects are felt through the generations as individuals try 5 00:00:27,121 --> 00:00:30,001 Speaker 1: to come to terms with tragedy and loss and often 6 00:00:30,361 --> 00:00:33,841 Speaker 1: a lack of resolution. The abduction of three year old 7 00:00:33,921 --> 00:00:37,881 Speaker 1: Cheryl Grimmer from ferry Meadow Beach in January nineteen seventy 8 00:00:38,281 --> 00:00:42,001 Speaker 1: is one such crime. Three year old Cheryl Grimmer disappeared 9 00:00:42,001 --> 00:00:45,721 Speaker 1: from a Woollongong beach more than five decades ago on 10 00:00:45,760 --> 00:00:49,121 Speaker 1: a hot summer's day. Cheryl's seven year old brother, Ricky 11 00:00:49,480 --> 00:00:51,081 Speaker 1: had been waiting for her to come out of the 12 00:00:51,161 --> 00:00:54,361 Speaker 1: changing shed, and when she didn't, he went back to 13 00:00:54,401 --> 00:00:56,801 Speaker 1: his mother on the beach to tell her with his 14 00:00:56,881 --> 00:01:00,081 Speaker 1: two other brothers, that was time enough for Cheryl to 15 00:01:00,121 --> 00:01:02,881 Speaker 1: be abducted, and she was never seen again. 16 00:01:03,881 --> 00:01:04,681 Speaker 2: Got my daughter. 17 00:01:05,041 --> 00:01:07,721 Speaker 3: I would love her about unharmed, as early and as 18 00:01:07,801 --> 00:01:08,721 Speaker 3: quick as possible. 19 00:01:09,920 --> 00:01:13,000 Speaker 1: A year later, a seventeen year old boy confessed to 20 00:01:13,041 --> 00:01:17,080 Speaker 1: her abduction and murder, but police did not take him seriously. 21 00:01:17,840 --> 00:01:21,641 Speaker 1: In twenty seventeen, this individual, who we must call Mercury, 22 00:01:21,681 --> 00:01:25,121 Speaker 1: for legal reasons, was charged with her murder based on 23 00:01:25,241 --> 00:01:29,481 Speaker 1: that confession, only for the case to be discontinued because 24 00:01:29,481 --> 00:01:32,440 Speaker 1: an adult had not been present when he made his 25 00:01:32,640 --> 00:01:33,720 Speaker 1: chilling confession. 26 00:01:34,401 --> 00:01:37,560 Speaker 4: The confession was recorded when the suspect was a minor, 27 00:01:38,081 --> 00:01:40,881 Speaker 4: leading the Supreme Court to rule it inadmissible. 28 00:01:42,200 --> 00:01:45,721 Speaker 1: Her brother, Ricky, has carried the guilt for Cheryl's loss 29 00:01:45,761 --> 00:01:49,081 Speaker 1: for his whole life, and it's affected everyone in his family, 30 00:01:49,721 --> 00:01:53,961 Speaker 1: not least his own daughter, Melanie Grimmer. Ricky suggested, I 31 00:01:54,001 --> 00:01:58,481 Speaker 1: speak to Melanie about this intergenerational trauma, and that's my 32 00:01:58,601 --> 00:02:01,281 Speaker 1: pleasure to welcome Melanie to real crime. 33 00:02:02,801 --> 00:02:05,921 Speaker 3: Thank you, thank you for having me absolute pleasure. 34 00:02:06,121 --> 00:02:09,921 Speaker 1: Listen, your father, Ricky Nash, decided it was a good 35 00:02:09,961 --> 00:02:13,121 Speaker 1: idea for you to talk about your experience, and I 36 00:02:13,121 --> 00:02:16,921 Speaker 1: guess the experience of families as you go down the 37 00:02:16,960 --> 00:02:19,841 Speaker 1: generations of this crime trauma. 38 00:02:20,281 --> 00:02:21,560 Speaker 3: What's been your experience? 39 00:02:22,321 --> 00:02:24,361 Speaker 2: Obviously, my childhood hasn't been easy. 40 00:02:24,761 --> 00:02:27,560 Speaker 4: I haven't really had a father figure in the sense 41 00:02:28,201 --> 00:02:31,161 Speaker 4: in my dad having my dad as my father figure. 42 00:02:31,921 --> 00:02:34,361 Speaker 2: Yeah, it hasn't always been good. 43 00:02:35,041 --> 00:02:39,161 Speaker 1: Because you've always grown up with the shadow of your auntie. 44 00:02:39,240 --> 00:02:43,641 Speaker 1: Cheryl Grimmer in the back. Yes, she disappeared on January twelve, 45 00:02:43,761 --> 00:02:47,561 Speaker 1: nineteen seventy. You never knew her, but you see the 46 00:02:47,641 --> 00:02:50,841 Speaker 1: impact on your father. What's that been over the years. 47 00:02:51,321 --> 00:02:54,121 Speaker 2: I always felt like I shouldn't have been here. 48 00:02:54,761 --> 00:02:57,161 Speaker 4: I always felt that it was obviously Cheryl, you know, 49 00:02:57,201 --> 00:02:58,321 Speaker 4: should have been here. 50 00:02:58,520 --> 00:03:00,520 Speaker 2: I felt kind of compared. 51 00:03:00,841 --> 00:03:01,041 Speaker 4: You know. 52 00:03:01,161 --> 00:03:02,641 Speaker 2: I was the blonde hair, blue. 53 00:03:02,441 --> 00:03:05,161 Speaker 4: Eye kind of girl, which was exactly what she er 54 00:03:05,201 --> 00:03:08,561 Speaker 4: all was. I obviously came at a time where my 55 00:03:08,641 --> 00:03:11,201 Speaker 4: dad was young. My dad was a young father and 56 00:03:11,361 --> 00:03:14,960 Speaker 4: he had just learnt that Vince wasn't his biological dad. 57 00:03:15,321 --> 00:03:17,121 Speaker 4: I only came a few years after that, so he 58 00:03:17,321 --> 00:03:22,041 Speaker 4: was going through this whole transition himself. I think I 59 00:03:22,161 --> 00:03:25,641 Speaker 4: felt the effects of that. Whether my dad fully understands that, 60 00:03:25,761 --> 00:03:29,641 Speaker 4: I no, I don't think so. But yeah, it was 61 00:03:29,761 --> 00:03:34,361 Speaker 4: very hard. My relationship with my dad was at times toxic, 62 00:03:34,921 --> 00:03:36,961 Speaker 4: I would say, and other times it was good. 63 00:03:37,161 --> 00:03:38,441 Speaker 2: I won't completely. 64 00:03:38,121 --> 00:03:42,081 Speaker 4: Fault him with everything. I always understood how he was 65 00:03:42,121 --> 00:03:45,081 Speaker 4: and why he was. But I would never ask my 66 00:03:45,201 --> 00:03:47,401 Speaker 4: dad like it was a topic that you just wouldn't 67 00:03:47,441 --> 00:03:51,041 Speaker 4: talk about, nor would he open up about it. 68 00:03:51,041 --> 00:03:52,481 Speaker 2: It was something that I would always talk. 69 00:03:52,401 --> 00:03:55,321 Speaker 4: To my mum about it, or my grandma my name 70 00:03:55,681 --> 00:03:57,361 Speaker 4: because it was just you. 71 00:03:57,361 --> 00:03:58,321 Speaker 2: You couldn't talk to my dad. 72 00:03:59,601 --> 00:04:04,160 Speaker 1: So because your grandmother Carol was only twenty six when 73 00:04:04,161 --> 00:04:07,681 Speaker 1: this happened, she must have been carrying so much guilt 74 00:04:07,721 --> 00:04:08,121 Speaker 1: as well. 75 00:04:08,881 --> 00:04:13,361 Speaker 4: Oh, absolutely, absolutely, or she always believed Cheryl was alive. 76 00:04:13,881 --> 00:04:15,641 Speaker 2: I guess when you're a mum, you kind of have 77 00:04:15,681 --> 00:04:17,761 Speaker 2: the hope that she's always alive. You don't want to 78 00:04:17,761 --> 00:04:18,761 Speaker 2: see the worst. 79 00:04:19,121 --> 00:04:21,841 Speaker 4: So to the day that she died, she always felt that, 80 00:04:22,361 --> 00:04:23,921 Speaker 4: and she would never give up on her. 81 00:04:24,440 --> 00:04:25,640 Speaker 2: You know, even if she had. 82 00:04:25,481 --> 00:04:29,081 Speaker 4: Found out about Mercury's confession, she would still be trying 83 00:04:29,121 --> 00:04:32,281 Speaker 4: to prove that she's alive. Like, I don't know, you 84 00:04:32,320 --> 00:04:34,241 Speaker 4: don't want to hear the worst anyway, you don't want 85 00:04:34,281 --> 00:04:34,961 Speaker 4: to know the worst. 86 00:04:35,521 --> 00:04:37,281 Speaker 2: I guess that you know that's your child. 87 00:04:38,121 --> 00:04:40,681 Speaker 1: When did your grandmother pass away? How old were you then? 88 00:04:41,681 --> 00:04:42,401 Speaker 2: Oh? I was. 89 00:04:43,001 --> 00:04:44,921 Speaker 4: I was actually on my way to New Zealand when 90 00:04:44,921 --> 00:04:47,121 Speaker 4: I found out that she was passing away. 91 00:04:47,880 --> 00:04:50,281 Speaker 1: Did she ever try to explain to you what your 92 00:04:50,281 --> 00:04:51,321 Speaker 1: father was going through? 93 00:04:51,320 --> 00:04:52,881 Speaker 3: Did you seek solace from her? 94 00:04:53,641 --> 00:04:54,041 Speaker 2: I did. 95 00:04:54,121 --> 00:04:56,401 Speaker 4: There was a few things that I've spoken to her 96 00:04:56,481 --> 00:04:59,841 Speaker 4: about that I didn't agree with that had happened to 97 00:04:59,880 --> 00:05:02,601 Speaker 4: my dad over the course of the years. I wasn't 98 00:05:02,641 --> 00:05:05,801 Speaker 4: really talking to my nn that life last part when 99 00:05:05,841 --> 00:05:07,081 Speaker 4: she was going in a past, because I had a 100 00:05:07,121 --> 00:05:10,080 Speaker 4: conversation with her and her response to me was not 101 00:05:10,161 --> 00:05:13,561 Speaker 4: a response that I wanted to hear. So that's kind 102 00:05:13,561 --> 00:05:15,201 Speaker 4: of hard on me because I always had a very 103 00:05:15,401 --> 00:05:18,921 Speaker 4: very good relationship with my name. But that last phone 104 00:05:18,961 --> 00:05:22,121 Speaker 4: conversation was not okay for me. 105 00:05:23,601 --> 00:05:26,481 Speaker 1: I don't want to pride, But was it around the 106 00:05:26,561 --> 00:05:28,401 Speaker 1: share Ol case or it was. 107 00:05:28,521 --> 00:05:31,080 Speaker 4: Around more about my father what had happened to my 108 00:05:31,081 --> 00:05:33,801 Speaker 4: father over the course of the years that I had 109 00:05:33,841 --> 00:05:38,601 Speaker 4: confronted her with and her response to me was not 110 00:05:38,641 --> 00:05:40,880 Speaker 4: an okay response from my perspective. 111 00:05:41,681 --> 00:05:45,160 Speaker 1: Yeah, and what points were you raising about what happened 112 00:05:45,161 --> 00:05:46,961 Speaker 1: to your father? Because we've obviously heard a lot about 113 00:05:47,201 --> 00:05:51,521 Speaker 1: your father's journey through the BBC podcast Fairy Meadow, but 114 00:05:52,001 --> 00:05:54,041 Speaker 1: the rest of the family is sort of not in the. 115 00:05:53,961 --> 00:05:55,041 Speaker 3: Frame as it were. 116 00:05:56,001 --> 00:05:59,361 Speaker 1: How did you feel when you listened to that podcast 117 00:05:59,401 --> 00:06:03,321 Speaker 1: if you did and contrasted it to what your lived 118 00:06:03,361 --> 00:06:04,401 Speaker 1: experience was. 119 00:06:05,601 --> 00:06:09,241 Speaker 4: Well, I don't think any podcast could fully dive into what. 120 00:06:09,161 --> 00:06:10,880 Speaker 2: We've experienced throughout the years. 121 00:06:11,241 --> 00:06:13,841 Speaker 4: I mean I would have to sit here for the 122 00:06:13,921 --> 00:06:16,601 Speaker 4: years explaining what we've gone through. 123 00:06:17,241 --> 00:06:19,520 Speaker 2: Our family was never the same. 124 00:06:20,041 --> 00:06:23,961 Speaker 4: I never had a normal upbringing, which you know, Mercury 125 00:06:23,961 --> 00:06:27,280 Speaker 4: obviously took Cheryl that day, but he robbed us all 126 00:06:27,440 --> 00:06:31,760 Speaker 4: of our life and including my children. Like the effects 127 00:06:31,761 --> 00:06:37,121 Speaker 4: of what happened even without I try not to it 128 00:06:37,201 --> 00:06:39,241 Speaker 4: kind of goes to my children as well, and I 129 00:06:39,281 --> 00:06:39,841 Speaker 4: can't help that. 130 00:06:39,921 --> 00:06:41,201 Speaker 2: I try to minimalize it. 131 00:06:41,361 --> 00:06:44,880 Speaker 4: I try to not let it affect them, but you know, 132 00:06:45,001 --> 00:06:48,761 Speaker 4: things like Mercury being released and my children can hear 133 00:06:48,801 --> 00:06:50,320 Speaker 4: that on the news and see that. 134 00:06:50,801 --> 00:06:53,041 Speaker 2: My children I have to hug of a night time 135 00:06:53,161 --> 00:06:54,640 Speaker 2: to say, well, why did they let him go? 136 00:06:54,761 --> 00:06:57,760 Speaker 4: Mum, He's killed her, He's done this to her. 137 00:06:58,121 --> 00:06:59,601 Speaker 2: Why is he walking the streets. 138 00:06:59,801 --> 00:07:02,481 Speaker 4: I'm the one that has to comfort them and basically 139 00:07:02,521 --> 00:07:06,080 Speaker 4: say I'm sorry, but you know, the systems failed you, 140 00:07:07,001 --> 00:07:09,761 Speaker 4: not just failed us to help the country like other 141 00:07:09,881 --> 00:07:13,601 Speaker 4: children and the safety and I have to deal with 142 00:07:13,841 --> 00:07:17,761 Speaker 4: holding them tight over nighttime and reassuring them that they're 143 00:07:17,841 --> 00:07:21,881 Speaker 4: okay and they're safe. That's what nobody sees. Nobody sees 144 00:07:21,961 --> 00:07:25,481 Speaker 4: those talks or me walking the street and scanning the 145 00:07:25,521 --> 00:07:28,521 Speaker 4: street to making sure that you know my child's safe, 146 00:07:29,041 --> 00:07:31,841 Speaker 4: or not even feeling comfortable with my children being alone 147 00:07:31,841 --> 00:07:35,841 Speaker 4: with my own family. It's yeah, they don't see those effects. 148 00:07:36,921 --> 00:07:40,280 Speaker 1: And you grew up with the same sort of feeling, 149 00:07:40,401 --> 00:07:44,241 Speaker 1: although you didn't know about mercury then. Yeah, who was 150 00:07:44,321 --> 00:07:47,121 Speaker 1: comfanying you? What was your source of solace? 151 00:07:47,961 --> 00:07:50,081 Speaker 4: It was my mom, and it was my mum's parents 152 00:07:50,081 --> 00:07:52,481 Speaker 4: and my auntie. It was my mom's side of the family, 153 00:07:53,121 --> 00:07:56,001 Speaker 4: my grandparents on my mom's side, they were like my 154 00:07:56,081 --> 00:07:58,881 Speaker 4: mom and dad. I lived with them throughout my life. 155 00:07:59,601 --> 00:08:03,321 Speaker 4: So I was very fortunate that I had that very 156 00:08:03,401 --> 00:08:09,281 Speaker 4: loving stay who in somewhat relationship and family were very 157 00:08:09,841 --> 00:08:13,201 Speaker 4: close and we're still very very close. Yeah, I was 158 00:08:13,241 --> 00:08:16,001 Speaker 4: lucky because I could have gone completely in a different 159 00:08:16,361 --> 00:08:19,721 Speaker 4: way because obviously things affected my mom too. My mom 160 00:08:19,841 --> 00:08:23,001 Speaker 4: was very young when she had me, and when she 161 00:08:23,001 --> 00:08:23,641 Speaker 4: got married to. 162 00:08:24,001 --> 00:08:26,881 Speaker 2: My dad divorced not long after. 163 00:08:27,641 --> 00:08:30,361 Speaker 3: Yeah, what were those years? 164 00:08:30,481 --> 00:08:34,801 Speaker 1: Like, I know your dad has had trouble in his relationships. 165 00:08:35,361 --> 00:08:39,841 Speaker 1: It always carries that guilt. It's affected his personality. How 166 00:08:39,841 --> 00:08:42,201 Speaker 1: did that play out in his relationships? 167 00:08:43,401 --> 00:08:45,681 Speaker 2: He wasn't a great person. 168 00:08:46,241 --> 00:08:48,481 Speaker 4: He definitely wasn't a great father to me, as much 169 00:08:48,481 --> 00:08:50,881 Speaker 4: as he liked to think he was. I found him 170 00:08:50,881 --> 00:08:52,961 Speaker 4: to be a better father to my two brothers and 171 00:08:53,001 --> 00:08:57,001 Speaker 4: my sister. I was actually quite surprised when that relationship 172 00:08:57,001 --> 00:08:57,521 Speaker 4: had ended. 173 00:08:58,601 --> 00:09:00,761 Speaker 2: Yeah, but he just he liked. 174 00:09:00,601 --> 00:09:03,321 Speaker 4: To drink, and unfortunately he wasn't a nice person when 175 00:09:03,321 --> 00:09:06,161 Speaker 4: you drink. And that's just reality, like that was his 176 00:09:06,201 --> 00:09:07,761 Speaker 4: coping mechanism, I guess. 177 00:09:08,041 --> 00:09:10,601 Speaker 1: And you found yourself walking on eggshells around him. You 178 00:09:10,641 --> 00:09:13,721 Speaker 1: couldn't talk about the thing that looms so large in 179 00:09:13,761 --> 00:09:14,401 Speaker 1: your family. 180 00:09:15,441 --> 00:09:16,641 Speaker 2: Yeah, no, no, you couldn't. 181 00:09:16,801 --> 00:09:18,561 Speaker 4: I knew a lot of the things because my dad, 182 00:09:18,601 --> 00:09:21,001 Speaker 4: obviously being married to my mom, My dad actually has 183 00:09:21,001 --> 00:09:23,081 Speaker 4: a lot of nightmares and likes to talk in his sleep. 184 00:09:23,281 --> 00:09:26,041 Speaker 4: A lot of the information my mom would get it 185 00:09:26,041 --> 00:09:26,761 Speaker 4: out of him. 186 00:09:26,761 --> 00:09:28,201 Speaker 2: When he would have those nightmares. 187 00:09:28,721 --> 00:09:30,921 Speaker 4: So it was my mom that originally spoke to me 188 00:09:30,961 --> 00:09:32,401 Speaker 4: and told me all the things. 189 00:09:32,521 --> 00:09:36,001 Speaker 2: And my father doesn't completely know everything because. 190 00:09:35,841 --> 00:09:38,441 Speaker 4: We haven't sat down and had that conversation about exactly 191 00:09:38,481 --> 00:09:41,561 Speaker 4: what I know. But that's how I found out. And 192 00:09:41,601 --> 00:09:43,721 Speaker 4: then over the course of time, obviously I would ask 193 00:09:43,761 --> 00:09:45,961 Speaker 4: my name, and my name would give me her answers 194 00:09:45,961 --> 00:09:48,681 Speaker 4: as well. So that's how I got all the information. 195 00:09:48,801 --> 00:09:51,441 Speaker 4: And then obviously when I started talking to my dad 196 00:09:51,601 --> 00:09:55,561 Speaker 4: after Mercury's confession, I would give him bits and pieces. 197 00:09:56,081 --> 00:09:57,961 Speaker 4: I don't think my dad's ready to ever sit down 198 00:09:58,241 --> 00:10:00,841 Speaker 4: and speak to me completely about it all, or for 199 00:10:00,961 --> 00:10:03,361 Speaker 4: us to have that one on one kind of conversation. 200 00:10:03,481 --> 00:10:06,561 Speaker 1: I guess it's that he suggested that you do it 201 00:10:06,601 --> 00:10:09,961 Speaker 1: through me, and I feel honored privilege to do this, 202 00:10:10,121 --> 00:10:12,841 Speaker 1: because I think there is time for some healing and 203 00:10:12,841 --> 00:10:16,841 Speaker 1: what you've been through needs to be discussed. But I 204 00:10:16,881 --> 00:10:20,801 Speaker 1: guess he went for those decades with no one so whatsoever, 205 00:10:21,041 --> 00:10:25,481 Speaker 1: a total mystery, various suspects that didn't pan out, and 206 00:10:25,521 --> 00:10:29,841 Speaker 1: then Frank Sanvitali and Damien Lerne did the investigation and 207 00:10:29,881 --> 00:10:35,641 Speaker 1: they found Mercury's confession. Yeah, that's twenty seventeen. Do you 208 00:10:35,721 --> 00:10:37,361 Speaker 1: remember those circumstances. 209 00:10:37,761 --> 00:10:40,561 Speaker 4: I actually wasn't talking to my dad at that stage, Arma, 210 00:10:40,561 --> 00:10:42,161 Speaker 4: I hadn't talked to him for a few years prior 211 00:10:42,201 --> 00:10:42,481 Speaker 4: to that. 212 00:10:43,001 --> 00:10:44,201 Speaker 2: The day that I started talking. 213 00:10:44,041 --> 00:10:46,721 Speaker 4: To my dad was the day of the conference at 214 00:10:46,721 --> 00:10:49,681 Speaker 4: the Perumado Beach. They had done a Prince's conference with 215 00:10:49,761 --> 00:10:53,241 Speaker 4: Brad Ainsworth. I stood to the side. I didn't stand 216 00:10:53,241 --> 00:10:55,641 Speaker 4: with the family. I actually wasn't going to. 217 00:10:55,641 --> 00:10:56,881 Speaker 2: Go that day. 218 00:10:56,961 --> 00:10:58,921 Speaker 4: He had written me a message to say, this is 219 00:10:58,921 --> 00:11:01,601 Speaker 4: what was happening. My Mum was the one that kind 220 00:11:01,601 --> 00:11:04,361 Speaker 4: of convinced me to go that day. So I still 221 00:11:04,481 --> 00:11:06,441 Speaker 4: to the side, and then I ended up just going 222 00:11:06,601 --> 00:11:08,841 Speaker 4: down to the beach and I. 223 00:11:08,761 --> 00:11:09,321 Speaker 2: Just sat there. 224 00:11:09,561 --> 00:11:12,881 Speaker 4: You know, I cried because that was the first time 225 00:11:13,161 --> 00:11:16,921 Speaker 4: in my life that I've ever seen my dad ever emotional, 226 00:11:17,401 --> 00:11:22,321 Speaker 4: ever show his emotions for anything. I saw a very 227 00:11:22,401 --> 00:11:25,761 Speaker 4: broken man that he couldn't put that front on at 228 00:11:25,761 --> 00:11:29,041 Speaker 4: that moment. I've always felt that he's had that mask on, 229 00:11:29,641 --> 00:11:31,801 Speaker 4: and that day he didn't have it on. 230 00:11:32,321 --> 00:11:33,921 Speaker 2: So that was kind of a bit of a turning 231 00:11:33,961 --> 00:11:34,801 Speaker 2: point for him. 232 00:11:34,681 --> 00:11:37,921 Speaker 4: And I where I kind of allowed him back into life, 233 00:11:38,001 --> 00:11:40,321 Speaker 4: because yeah, he was just a. 234 00:11:40,281 --> 00:11:43,041 Speaker 2: Different person at that stage anyway. 235 00:11:43,561 --> 00:11:46,161 Speaker 4: Obviously got to speak to him, and just I was 236 00:11:46,161 --> 00:11:48,761 Speaker 4: able to talk to him. He had quit the drinking 237 00:11:48,961 --> 00:11:52,681 Speaker 4: at that stage, so he was completely different person to 238 00:11:52,721 --> 00:11:57,201 Speaker 4: what I had grown up with anyway, and he. 239 00:11:57,081 --> 00:11:59,881 Speaker 1: Must have been so full of hope at that time 240 00:12:00,601 --> 00:12:04,201 Speaker 1: when he knew that Mercury was still alive, that there 241 00:12:04,321 --> 00:12:08,361 Speaker 1: was a detailed confession, which was corroborated by some excellent 242 00:12:08,361 --> 00:12:12,081 Speaker 1: work by Damien and Frank. What promise did that hold 243 00:12:12,121 --> 00:12:17,281 Speaker 1: out for you as you struggle with the decades long issue. 244 00:12:17,761 --> 00:12:20,161 Speaker 4: It was hard to obviously hear what had happened and 245 00:12:20,201 --> 00:12:22,121 Speaker 4: what the police believed to be true. 246 00:12:22,881 --> 00:12:24,841 Speaker 2: It's hard to also go to court. 247 00:12:25,561 --> 00:12:28,281 Speaker 4: Basically you're being told, this is the guy you know. 248 00:12:28,281 --> 00:12:31,601 Speaker 4: We've crossed our teas, we've dotted our eyes, we've done 249 00:12:31,641 --> 00:12:35,641 Speaker 4: absolutely everything. There is no doubt that this isn't the person. 250 00:12:36,041 --> 00:12:38,001 Speaker 4: You've got to hear things that you don't want to hear, 251 00:12:38,441 --> 00:12:41,761 Speaker 4: all these things, and we're not interested. We just want 252 00:12:41,801 --> 00:12:43,481 Speaker 4: to know what had happened to Eryl. We just want 253 00:12:43,521 --> 00:12:46,121 Speaker 4: to kind of get some form of justice. I don't 254 00:12:46,121 --> 00:12:50,041 Speaker 4: think there of the will be justice, but that's all 255 00:12:50,041 --> 00:12:53,841 Speaker 4: we want. And then you go with this expectation that 256 00:12:54,161 --> 00:12:57,521 Speaker 4: you're finally going to not have closure, but just begin 257 00:12:57,641 --> 00:13:00,601 Speaker 4: to start a healing process. I guess in some ways, 258 00:13:01,281 --> 00:13:04,481 Speaker 4: and then it's taken from you again. So a part 259 00:13:04,521 --> 00:13:08,001 Speaker 4: of you is like, I wish we didn't know, I guess, 260 00:13:08,001 --> 00:13:09,961 Speaker 4: because we still have the hope that you know, she's alive, 261 00:13:10,441 --> 00:13:14,041 Speaker 4: but now that we know, and then he's been released 262 00:13:14,521 --> 00:13:17,561 Speaker 4: after two years of incarceration. It's yeah, that's a bit 263 00:13:18,281 --> 00:13:20,321 Speaker 4: bit hard because. 264 00:13:20,081 --> 00:13:23,121 Speaker 1: I'm sure that you are probably looking at your own 265 00:13:23,161 --> 00:13:26,841 Speaker 1: relationship with your dad through this prism that here's this resolution, 266 00:13:27,401 --> 00:13:30,161 Speaker 1: we can sweep away the past and have a new 267 00:13:30,241 --> 00:13:33,281 Speaker 1: beginning to our relationship. You had your own kids, You've 268 00:13:33,361 --> 00:13:38,121 Speaker 1: got your own kids, and so something was very promising 269 00:13:38,161 --> 00:13:38,801 Speaker 1: at that moment. 270 00:13:39,441 --> 00:13:44,121 Speaker 4: Yeah, and it's my relationship with my dad will never 271 00:13:44,201 --> 00:13:47,201 Speaker 4: be a normal relationship with anybody like any other person 272 00:13:47,441 --> 00:13:50,121 Speaker 4: has with their father. I will always be cautious, I 273 00:13:50,121 --> 00:13:51,361 Speaker 4: will always stand on eggshells. 274 00:13:51,401 --> 00:13:53,521 Speaker 2: I'll always shelter my heart. 275 00:13:53,561 --> 00:13:55,881 Speaker 4: I guess, like wrap my heart and my children and 276 00:13:55,921 --> 00:14:00,041 Speaker 4: protect them. But I thought it was the beginning of 277 00:14:00,121 --> 00:14:01,081 Speaker 4: us healing together. 278 00:14:01,361 --> 00:14:04,001 Speaker 2: I guess, in some ways the best that we could. 279 00:14:04,601 --> 00:14:07,481 Speaker 4: But it's yeah, I don't know if we're ever going 280 00:14:07,561 --> 00:14:08,681 Speaker 4: to be healed. 281 00:14:08,721 --> 00:14:11,521 Speaker 2: I guess in some ways. 282 00:14:12,561 --> 00:14:16,321 Speaker 1: But you've certainly been incredibly loyal. I met you after 283 00:14:16,641 --> 00:14:21,561 Speaker 1: twenty nineteen, when Mercury was released and the confession was 284 00:14:21,601 --> 00:14:24,321 Speaker 1: deemed to be not admissible because there wasn't an adult 285 00:14:24,921 --> 00:14:27,401 Speaker 1: present at the time, which must have been so maddening. 286 00:14:27,681 --> 00:14:28,961 Speaker 3: To you to have. 287 00:14:28,921 --> 00:14:32,401 Speaker 1: It pulled away and your whole life being a family 288 00:14:32,521 --> 00:14:34,521 Speaker 1: will the tru me is suffered all on the basis 289 00:14:34,561 --> 00:14:37,001 Speaker 1: of one little technical loophole. 290 00:14:37,921 --> 00:14:41,001 Speaker 4: Yes, especially when you're going to court, Like I was 291 00:14:41,041 --> 00:14:43,401 Speaker 4: able to go enter the court, Dad wasn't so I 292 00:14:43,441 --> 00:14:47,081 Speaker 4: saw mercury on the screen when we're at Allongong being 293 00:14:47,121 --> 00:14:50,721 Speaker 4: in that courtroom hearing the judge basically say the evidence 294 00:14:50,721 --> 00:14:54,361 Speaker 4: that's based in front of us, bail is denied and 295 00:14:54,601 --> 00:14:57,121 Speaker 4: they only had like twenty percent of the information in 296 00:14:57,121 --> 00:14:59,921 Speaker 4: front of him. Now you've gone to court, you know, 297 00:15:00,001 --> 00:15:02,601 Speaker 4: several times after that once again bail DENI bail tonight. 298 00:15:03,121 --> 00:15:06,401 Speaker 4: Then when it goes to Sydney court, guess what he's 299 00:15:06,401 --> 00:15:09,121 Speaker 4: getting let off? And it's like what do you mean? 300 00:15:09,721 --> 00:15:13,441 Speaker 4: Like you've bought in this retrospective law. But then it's 301 00:15:13,481 --> 00:15:16,281 Speaker 4: never been used on any other case in the history 302 00:15:16,321 --> 00:15:20,401 Speaker 4: of Australia. That is what's frustrating to me. How is 303 00:15:20,401 --> 00:15:22,921 Speaker 4: it that that's even possible, Like how is it that 304 00:15:22,961 --> 00:15:25,121 Speaker 4: no other cases even come in and go, well, hang 305 00:15:25,161 --> 00:15:27,961 Speaker 4: on a second, you've used it in that case, use 306 00:15:28,001 --> 00:15:28,761 Speaker 4: it in this one? 307 00:15:29,001 --> 00:15:31,241 Speaker 2: Like nope, it's pushed to the side. 308 00:15:31,281 --> 00:15:34,801 Speaker 4: Now they've used that retrospective law and let's just sweep 309 00:15:34,801 --> 00:15:37,521 Speaker 4: it underneath the rug where I'm like, no, this is crazy, 310 00:15:37,641 --> 00:15:41,921 Speaker 4: Like this to me is ludicrous, Like I don't understand 311 00:15:42,481 --> 00:15:45,601 Speaker 4: the thinking. I don't understand the law. I don't understand 312 00:15:46,281 --> 00:15:50,481 Speaker 4: any of it. And why aren't people, you know, debating 313 00:15:50,561 --> 00:15:53,041 Speaker 4: this and bringing it up into other cases, like why 314 00:15:53,121 --> 00:15:57,481 Speaker 4: is it just Sheryl? That's what's frustrating and heartbreaking at 315 00:15:57,481 --> 00:15:58,121 Speaker 4: the same time. 316 00:15:59,561 --> 00:16:02,081 Speaker 1: And then, obviously, in the context of your relationship with 317 00:16:02,121 --> 00:16:06,081 Speaker 1: your dad, you think what's next the two disappointment. Are 318 00:16:06,121 --> 00:16:08,521 Speaker 1: we going back into the darkness? Is this going to 319 00:16:08,521 --> 00:16:11,201 Speaker 1: be the start of us fighting together on this? So 320 00:16:11,481 --> 00:16:12,481 Speaker 1: what happened after that? 321 00:16:13,441 --> 00:16:15,881 Speaker 2: My dad's very he's proactive. 322 00:16:15,961 --> 00:16:18,161 Speaker 4: He's like, whatever he can do to fight for Cheryl, 323 00:16:18,201 --> 00:16:20,041 Speaker 4: he would do like that's that's the promise that he 324 00:16:20,121 --> 00:16:21,841 Speaker 4: made to his mum, that's the promise that he's made 325 00:16:21,841 --> 00:16:23,921 Speaker 4: to himself. It's the promise that he's made to Cheryl. 326 00:16:24,441 --> 00:16:28,401 Speaker 4: She's what makes him just run and tick and go. 327 00:16:29,281 --> 00:16:33,361 Speaker 4: Sometimes you can forget us in the process of that. 328 00:16:33,881 --> 00:16:36,761 Speaker 4: I'm okay with that because it's for Cheryl. It's just 329 00:16:36,801 --> 00:16:40,561 Speaker 4: how my dad works. Once he's focused on something. He's 330 00:16:40,641 --> 00:16:43,641 Speaker 4: just that tunnel vision. Everything else is kind of put 331 00:16:43,681 --> 00:16:45,601 Speaker 4: to the side. If it was anything else, I wouldn't 332 00:16:45,601 --> 00:16:46,761 Speaker 4: be okay with it. But for Cheryl. 333 00:16:46,961 --> 00:16:50,961 Speaker 1: Yeah, and you are prepared to sacrifice that time that 334 00:16:51,081 --> 00:16:53,321 Speaker 1: he might be spending with you and your children. 335 00:16:53,921 --> 00:16:58,441 Speaker 4: For Cheryl, absolutely absolutely, if it means that, you know, 336 00:16:58,681 --> 00:17:02,721 Speaker 4: down the line we might get some kind of resolution 337 00:17:03,001 --> 00:17:05,720 Speaker 4: and you know, Mercury does go back to jail or 338 00:17:06,041 --> 00:17:09,360 Speaker 4: maybe then we can heal or try to heal. I'm 339 00:17:09,360 --> 00:17:11,081 Speaker 4: not thinking of myself. I'm not thinking of my kids. 340 00:17:11,080 --> 00:17:14,761 Speaker 4: I'm thinking of Cheryl. I think she deserves to be 341 00:17:14,840 --> 00:17:18,241 Speaker 4: the focus, I guess in some ways, and she deserves 342 00:17:18,321 --> 00:17:19,761 Speaker 4: to be set free. 343 00:17:19,801 --> 00:17:23,120 Speaker 2: I guess that to me is what this is about. 344 00:17:24,041 --> 00:17:25,880 Speaker 1: I'm going to be play devil's advocate here. I'm going 345 00:17:25,961 --> 00:17:27,920 Speaker 1: to say, well, what do you deserve? 346 00:17:29,120 --> 00:17:32,880 Speaker 2: I deserved a father, My kids deserve her grandfather. 347 00:17:35,360 --> 00:17:37,801 Speaker 4: Yeah, but I won't ever get that. 348 00:17:39,360 --> 00:17:41,760 Speaker 2: It's just how it is. He tries. 349 00:17:42,761 --> 00:17:44,801 Speaker 3: But you haven't had that conversation. You haven't. 350 00:17:44,961 --> 00:17:47,200 Speaker 1: I'm surprised to hear this because I know you're a 351 00:17:47,201 --> 00:17:47,840 Speaker 1: strong person. 352 00:17:47,880 --> 00:17:48,801 Speaker 3: He's a strong person. 353 00:17:49,241 --> 00:17:51,401 Speaker 1: In fact, I can see echoes of him and you, 354 00:17:52,080 --> 00:17:55,400 Speaker 1: and I wonder whether it's not time to have that conversation, 355 00:17:55,561 --> 00:17:58,440 Speaker 1: because when I look at the options that are in 356 00:17:58,481 --> 00:18:02,041 Speaker 1: front of your family now, Damien Len and Frank Sanvitali, 357 00:18:02,120 --> 00:18:04,720 Speaker 1: they did an amazing job, and they were looking for 358 00:18:04,761 --> 00:18:08,280 Speaker 1: things like what's somebody else in the boys name at 359 00:18:08,321 --> 00:18:11,161 Speaker 1: that time who possibly did witness, but tried to find 360 00:18:11,160 --> 00:18:13,961 Speaker 1: out whether they could find boys who were there. They've looked. 361 00:18:14,001 --> 00:18:16,360 Speaker 1: This new witness came up who claimed to have said 362 00:18:16,400 --> 00:18:20,120 Speaker 1: they've done everything. So if there is no change and 363 00:18:20,160 --> 00:18:24,880 Speaker 1: this is the setting, what happens with you and your dad. 364 00:18:25,640 --> 00:18:26,761 Speaker 2: I honestly don't know. 365 00:18:27,201 --> 00:18:30,281 Speaker 4: I don't I don't know if you would ever sit 366 00:18:30,321 --> 00:18:33,960 Speaker 4: down and have that conversation, a proper conversation. We get 367 00:18:34,001 --> 00:18:37,080 Speaker 4: drips and drafts, like you know, every time he comes 368 00:18:37,080 --> 00:18:37,921 Speaker 4: here and things like that. 369 00:18:38,041 --> 00:18:39,521 Speaker 2: I get a little bit more. 370 00:18:39,600 --> 00:18:42,400 Speaker 4: Out of him, But I don't know if he can 371 00:18:42,441 --> 00:18:44,641 Speaker 4: ever sit down and have a let's go one on 372 00:18:44,640 --> 00:18:47,561 Speaker 4: one kind. I don't think he would be ready for that, 373 00:18:47,681 --> 00:18:51,481 Speaker 4: to be honest, I don't think he can face that. 374 00:18:52,201 --> 00:18:52,401 Speaker 3: Well. 375 00:18:52,441 --> 00:18:55,840 Speaker 1: Again, maybe that's why he suggested this conversation and maybe 376 00:18:55,840 --> 00:18:57,521 Speaker 1: he won't be thanking me later on. 377 00:18:57,600 --> 00:19:02,280 Speaker 4: But No, he probably won't be thanking me either, to 378 00:19:02,360 --> 00:19:05,640 Speaker 4: be honest, but sometimes you need to hear it. 379 00:19:06,160 --> 00:19:09,281 Speaker 1: Yeah, in that vein. I mean, he will listen to 380 00:19:09,321 --> 00:19:11,321 Speaker 1: this and tell me. What would you want to say 381 00:19:11,360 --> 00:19:13,321 Speaker 1: to him if you were sitting in front of him, 382 00:19:13,441 --> 00:19:14,321 Speaker 1: you can say it through me. 383 00:19:15,840 --> 00:19:19,161 Speaker 4: Just to prioritize what's in the land of living too. 384 00:19:20,080 --> 00:19:24,161 Speaker 4: I think sometimes he forgets we're still here and as 385 00:19:24,201 --> 00:19:27,840 Speaker 4: much as Cheryl is a big focus, and I totally 386 00:19:27,921 --> 00:19:31,321 Speaker 4: understand him doing that and doing everything he possibly can 387 00:19:31,600 --> 00:19:33,680 Speaker 4: because he feels that he needs to for himself and 388 00:19:33,681 --> 00:19:38,161 Speaker 4: for Cheryl. Don't forget about us. That's what I want 389 00:19:38,160 --> 00:19:41,681 Speaker 4: to say to him, for him to understand. He's got 390 00:19:41,721 --> 00:19:45,401 Speaker 4: four beautiful grandchildren, He's got a daughter that despite everything, 391 00:19:46,120 --> 00:19:50,761 Speaker 4: is still here, still fighting for him, still doing what. 392 00:19:50,721 --> 00:19:53,801 Speaker 2: I can for him. I think sometimes he forgets. 393 00:19:53,441 --> 00:19:58,600 Speaker 1: That, and he's probably forgetting or not realizing what he's missing. 394 00:19:58,761 --> 00:20:01,120 Speaker 1: What are the things that are important to you in 395 00:20:01,160 --> 00:20:03,241 Speaker 1: your life that you want him to know about how 396 00:20:03,241 --> 00:20:08,281 Speaker 1: you're living, what's happening with your kids, Well, just a simple. 397 00:20:08,241 --> 00:20:11,441 Speaker 4: Like this year, he'd forgot about all of our birthdays. 398 00:20:12,001 --> 00:20:16,321 Speaker 4: It's just a simple happy birthday, and he might see 399 00:20:16,360 --> 00:20:19,481 Speaker 4: it as a simple mistake. I see it as more 400 00:20:19,521 --> 00:20:21,240 Speaker 4: because I'm the one that has to explain to my 401 00:20:21,360 --> 00:20:25,761 Speaker 4: children my granddad didn't message or call or send a 402 00:20:25,761 --> 00:20:26,360 Speaker 4: birthday card. 403 00:20:26,441 --> 00:20:29,321 Speaker 2: It's not about gifts, it's not about any of that stuff. 404 00:20:29,360 --> 00:20:31,960 Speaker 2: I can't stand that kind of stuff. 405 00:20:32,321 --> 00:20:36,721 Speaker 4: It's just making a gesture and acknowledging that it's something 406 00:20:36,761 --> 00:20:39,481 Speaker 4: special it's their birthday or something like that. It's just, yeah, 407 00:20:39,961 --> 00:20:43,561 Speaker 4: I think he just needs to stop making excuses for 408 00:20:43,640 --> 00:20:44,080 Speaker 4: missing it. 409 00:20:44,681 --> 00:20:48,521 Speaker 1: Because if I have a criticism of the Very Meadow podcast, 410 00:20:48,721 --> 00:20:50,920 Speaker 1: I think it's a tremendous production and it really shone 411 00:20:50,961 --> 00:20:52,840 Speaker 1: a light into what it was like for your father. 412 00:20:53,521 --> 00:20:55,920 Speaker 3: I felt like it's somewhat indulged some of this. 413 00:20:57,201 --> 00:20:58,561 Speaker 2: Yeah, well, I'll. 414 00:20:58,400 --> 00:21:01,680 Speaker 4: Give an example, because my dad forgot our birthdays this 415 00:21:01,761 --> 00:21:04,561 Speaker 4: year on purpose. I did not wish him a happy 416 00:21:04,561 --> 00:21:07,880 Speaker 4: Father's Day, and he worked that out pretty quickly, and 417 00:21:07,921 --> 00:21:09,280 Speaker 4: he said it to me when he came here. Oh, 418 00:21:09,321 --> 00:21:11,481 Speaker 4: you know, you didn't wish me to have a Father's Day. Yes, 419 00:21:11,721 --> 00:21:13,761 Speaker 4: I didn't, And he goes that was to get back at. 420 00:21:13,721 --> 00:21:14,760 Speaker 2: Me, Yes it was. 421 00:21:15,321 --> 00:21:17,880 Speaker 4: Now do you understand he's like fairpoint, fair point, Like 422 00:21:18,001 --> 00:21:20,201 Speaker 4: you know, So that's the kind of person I am 423 00:21:20,241 --> 00:21:21,001 Speaker 4: when I'm. 424 00:21:20,801 --> 00:21:23,161 Speaker 2: With my dad, Like I don't hold back. 425 00:21:23,001 --> 00:21:26,081 Speaker 4: With him, like if he's if I don't like something, 426 00:21:26,321 --> 00:21:29,201 Speaker 4: I'll voice my opinion and I'll be blunt about it. 427 00:21:29,681 --> 00:21:31,321 Speaker 2: I won't sugarcoat things for him. 428 00:21:32,600 --> 00:21:35,721 Speaker 3: I'm me good, good for you. 429 00:21:36,001 --> 00:21:39,281 Speaker 1: Yeah, and you've got to keep doing that. And I 430 00:21:39,281 --> 00:21:42,121 Speaker 1: think you know, I mean, he's got a difficult relationship 431 00:21:42,160 --> 00:21:43,961 Speaker 1: with his other children as well now, so he's a 432 00:21:43,961 --> 00:21:46,720 Speaker 1: little bit isolated generally, And I wonder what happens now 433 00:21:46,761 --> 00:21:49,960 Speaker 1: in the future, because I'm not even sure that a 434 00:21:50,041 --> 00:21:52,881 Speaker 1: resolution would make much difference now to him. 435 00:21:53,481 --> 00:21:55,081 Speaker 3: It's so ingrained this now. 436 00:21:55,721 --> 00:21:56,041 Speaker 2: Yeah. 437 00:21:56,080 --> 00:22:00,880 Speaker 4: Absolutely, Yeah, he's just I'm not speaking to those kids. 438 00:22:01,840 --> 00:22:03,001 Speaker 2: He's tried, Don't get me wrong. 439 00:22:03,041 --> 00:22:05,400 Speaker 4: He has tried to talk, and he has gone to 440 00:22:05,681 --> 00:22:08,041 Speaker 4: one of my brothers. He plays football. He goes to 441 00:22:08,080 --> 00:22:10,720 Speaker 4: those games when he can. Obviously he was going a 442 00:22:10,721 --> 00:22:13,240 Speaker 4: lot more, but him being in the Philippines, he obviously 443 00:22:13,241 --> 00:22:13,561 Speaker 4: can't go. 444 00:22:14,120 --> 00:22:16,761 Speaker 2: He does try. I'm kind of caught in the middle. 445 00:22:16,880 --> 00:22:18,600 Speaker 4: I'm piggy in the middle because I talked to one 446 00:22:18,640 --> 00:22:21,761 Speaker 4: of my brothers and he knows that he's he doesn't 447 00:22:21,761 --> 00:22:23,961 Speaker 4: stop my relationship with my dad, and he doesn't ask 448 00:22:24,080 --> 00:22:29,080 Speaker 4: questions or I'm kind of I'm stuck in between them 449 00:22:29,080 --> 00:22:31,520 Speaker 4: trying to explain that, yes, he's done this, you know, 450 00:22:31,640 --> 00:22:34,801 Speaker 4: but he's been good at this, or vice versa, and yeah, 451 00:22:35,360 --> 00:22:38,761 Speaker 4: I don't think they realize how awkward it is for me. 452 00:22:39,201 --> 00:22:41,240 Speaker 4: And I try not to get any information because then 453 00:22:41,281 --> 00:22:42,840 Speaker 4: if I don't want anything to come back on me. 454 00:22:43,441 --> 00:22:47,201 Speaker 2: Yeah it's hard, Yeah, really tough. 455 00:22:47,521 --> 00:22:50,241 Speaker 1: And he's now basically living in the Philippines, which puts 456 00:22:50,241 --> 00:22:54,481 Speaker 1: distance between even more. Yes, yeah, in a new relationship, 457 00:22:54,880 --> 00:22:56,880 Speaker 1: you know. And I guess you're still thinking, well, what 458 00:22:56,961 --> 00:22:57,481 Speaker 1: about us? 459 00:22:58,201 --> 00:23:01,880 Speaker 4: Yeah, absolutely absolutely, it's what about us? 460 00:23:01,921 --> 00:23:03,480 Speaker 2: But it's what about my kids? You know? 461 00:23:03,600 --> 00:23:07,241 Speaker 4: My kids seek in this new relationship and why he's 462 00:23:07,241 --> 00:23:08,481 Speaker 4: been attentive grandfather. 463 00:23:09,201 --> 00:23:12,041 Speaker 2: He's in this new relationship and he's not as attentive anymore. 464 00:23:12,360 --> 00:23:15,400 Speaker 2: They see this. I don't think he realizes this. I 465 00:23:15,441 --> 00:23:17,121 Speaker 2: wish he was a bit more aware. 466 00:23:18,281 --> 00:23:19,760 Speaker 3: I think he's running from himself. 467 00:23:20,360 --> 00:23:22,360 Speaker 1: And I think part of the issue in life is 468 00:23:22,400 --> 00:23:25,521 Speaker 1: we try to change and transform ourselves these things that. 469 00:23:25,481 --> 00:23:27,601 Speaker 3: We don't like or experiences in the. 470 00:23:27,561 --> 00:23:31,400 Speaker 1: Past, and really most of these things are preordained and 471 00:23:31,441 --> 00:23:34,840 Speaker 1: we have to accept ourselves. And I think that's he 472 00:23:34,880 --> 00:23:38,521 Speaker 1: can't go back to that moment on January the twelfth, 473 00:23:38,600 --> 00:23:41,840 Speaker 1: nineteen seventy. He was a seven year old boy. For 474 00:23:41,921 --> 00:23:46,241 Speaker 1: God's sakes, he didn't do it deliberately. It's just a 475 00:23:46,360 --> 00:23:50,160 Speaker 1: terrible tragedy. And I wonder have you ever tried to 476 00:23:50,201 --> 00:23:53,481 Speaker 1: say to him, for fuck sake, dad, forgive yourself. 477 00:23:54,360 --> 00:23:54,680 Speaker 2: Yeah. 478 00:23:54,761 --> 00:23:58,720 Speaker 4: Absolutely absolutely, he did what any other seven year old 479 00:23:58,721 --> 00:24:02,840 Speaker 4: would have done, Like, he didn't do anything wrong. As 480 00:24:02,921 --> 00:24:05,041 Speaker 4: much as he blames himself, he didn't do anything wrong. 481 00:24:05,160 --> 00:24:07,720 Speaker 4: My children would have been the same, Like, if you know, 482 00:24:07,801 --> 00:24:09,561 Speaker 4: one of my kids won't come in, they would have 483 00:24:09,600 --> 00:24:11,440 Speaker 4: come down to me and said, hey, mum, you know 484 00:24:12,441 --> 00:24:18,200 Speaker 4: he needs to move past it and realize that yes, okay, 485 00:24:18,441 --> 00:24:21,080 Speaker 4: like it's a mistake, but it's not. At the time, 486 00:24:21,561 --> 00:24:24,481 Speaker 4: he was doing the right thing. But he needs to 487 00:24:24,521 --> 00:24:27,681 Speaker 4: stop being the victim and he needs to wake up 488 00:24:28,080 --> 00:24:31,920 Speaker 4: sometimes and just move on. Take ownership and whatever. But 489 00:24:32,640 --> 00:24:35,521 Speaker 4: not even take ownership. He didn't even do anything wrong 490 00:24:35,640 --> 00:24:37,481 Speaker 4: that day. He just needs to not be as hard 491 00:24:37,521 --> 00:24:38,121 Speaker 4: on himself. 492 00:24:38,681 --> 00:24:42,080 Speaker 1: And the fact that you know, you having this conversation 493 00:24:42,281 --> 00:24:44,200 Speaker 1: saying these things, not because you want to get at 494 00:24:44,201 --> 00:24:45,961 Speaker 1: any more, insult him, criticize him. 495 00:24:46,241 --> 00:24:47,201 Speaker 3: It is out of love. 496 00:24:47,681 --> 00:24:49,161 Speaker 2: Absolutely. I love my dad. 497 00:24:49,441 --> 00:24:51,480 Speaker 4: I wouldn't be here if I didn't love my dad. 498 00:24:51,880 --> 00:24:54,880 Speaker 4: I'm still trying to fight for my dad. I don't 499 00:24:54,880 --> 00:24:57,721 Speaker 4: think he realizes that, but I'm still trying to. 500 00:24:57,640 --> 00:24:58,600 Speaker 2: Fight for my dad. 501 00:24:58,681 --> 00:25:02,480 Speaker 4: I've understood him, understood how he is, why he is, 502 00:25:02,600 --> 00:25:03,521 Speaker 4: and I guess that's. 503 00:25:03,360 --> 00:25:06,281 Speaker 2: Why I am here fighting for my dad. 504 00:25:07,041 --> 00:25:10,161 Speaker 4: But I feel like every time his life is happy, 505 00:25:10,360 --> 00:25:14,240 Speaker 4: he self sabotages himself, Like he feels like he can 506 00:25:14,281 --> 00:25:17,160 Speaker 4: never be happy. And I think that's also one of 507 00:25:17,201 --> 00:25:20,400 Speaker 4: the reasons why his relationships end as well, especially the 508 00:25:20,441 --> 00:25:21,321 Speaker 4: last relationship. 509 00:25:22,120 --> 00:25:25,281 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's such a shame, you know, And I wonder 510 00:25:25,321 --> 00:25:29,840 Speaker 1: whether anything would change that. And you've got this parliamentary 511 00:25:29,880 --> 00:25:33,041 Speaker 1: inquiry coming up, Cheryl's disappearance is going to be back 512 00:25:33,080 --> 00:25:37,041 Speaker 1: in the spotlight once more. Jeremy Buckingham's doing a fantastic job. 513 00:25:37,681 --> 00:25:39,760 Speaker 1: But do you have to guard in your own heart 514 00:25:40,160 --> 00:25:42,361 Speaker 1: against that sort of instinct for hope that might turn 515 00:25:42,400 --> 00:25:43,080 Speaker 1: out to be false? 516 00:25:44,201 --> 00:25:47,360 Speaker 4: Absolutely constantly going like I see things a little bit 517 00:25:47,360 --> 00:25:48,241 Speaker 4: differently to my dad. 518 00:25:48,281 --> 00:25:51,080 Speaker 2: Why my dad wants to putting back behind bars. 519 00:25:51,721 --> 00:25:54,440 Speaker 4: I look at it from a different perspective that he 520 00:25:54,561 --> 00:25:58,321 Speaker 4: was incarcerated for two years. Yes, it's not enough, it 521 00:25:58,360 --> 00:26:01,721 Speaker 4: never will be enough, but we've got the answers. 522 00:26:01,241 --> 00:26:05,321 Speaker 2: That we never knew. So to me, it's some thing 523 00:26:05,880 --> 00:26:07,880 Speaker 2: that I see a little bit differently. 524 00:26:08,201 --> 00:26:11,041 Speaker 5: Would I like him to go back to Absolutely, he 525 00:26:11,281 --> 00:26:13,680 Speaker 5: shouldn't be on the streets. But I've also got to 526 00:26:13,721 --> 00:26:16,400 Speaker 5: look at it in another way that we at least 527 00:26:16,441 --> 00:26:19,481 Speaker 5: know what now what happened to Shell And I say 528 00:26:19,521 --> 00:26:22,640 Speaker 5: it to Frank Savatily all the time, if it wasn't 529 00:26:22,640 --> 00:26:26,001 Speaker 5: for him and Damien, it's like they gave her her wings. 530 00:26:26,640 --> 00:26:28,440 Speaker 2: This is my way of thinking. 531 00:26:28,481 --> 00:26:32,680 Speaker 4: She was stuck up there all alone, nobody knew exactly 532 00:26:32,721 --> 00:26:35,920 Speaker 4: what happened to her, and with them, she's kind of 533 00:26:35,961 --> 00:26:41,000 Speaker 4: finally set free in that regard. So I'm forever grateful 534 00:26:41,080 --> 00:26:44,761 Speaker 4: to them for that. But yeah, I don't think Dad, 535 00:26:44,921 --> 00:26:46,680 Speaker 4: it doesn't matter. I don't think even if he got 536 00:26:46,761 --> 00:26:48,240 Speaker 4: life in prison, I don't think that will ever be 537 00:26:48,360 --> 00:26:48,921 Speaker 4: enough with my dad. 538 00:26:48,961 --> 00:26:51,121 Speaker 2: I think my dad will still still fight for more. 539 00:26:52,640 --> 00:26:54,561 Speaker 1: Have you had this conversation with your dad, have you 540 00:26:54,600 --> 00:26:56,281 Speaker 1: expressed that feeling. 541 00:26:57,120 --> 00:26:59,080 Speaker 2: I think he knows that I don't think it will 542 00:26:59,080 --> 00:27:01,761 Speaker 2: ever be enough. I think he's just got to constantly fight. 543 00:27:02,640 --> 00:27:03,801 Speaker 2: What's he going to do after this? 544 00:27:05,721 --> 00:27:07,801 Speaker 4: If this was to end and everything he was to 545 00:27:07,880 --> 00:27:10,281 Speaker 4: be incarcerated, what's he going to do? 546 00:27:10,801 --> 00:27:14,681 Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't know, because Cheryl's such a big part. 547 00:27:15,400 --> 00:27:20,080 Speaker 3: Yes, trauma is so ingrained. It's now gone over three generations. 548 00:27:20,120 --> 00:27:22,041 Speaker 1: Really if you include your children as well in this, 549 00:27:22,120 --> 00:27:25,720 Speaker 1: and I'm not sure that anything will change that. The 550 00:27:25,761 --> 00:27:29,160 Speaker 1: one hope that I hold out is that now that 551 00:27:29,761 --> 00:27:32,961 Speaker 1: Mercury has been named in the Parliament, police around the 552 00:27:33,080 --> 00:27:36,640 Speaker 1: nation also know about this guy. And my feeling is 553 00:27:36,681 --> 00:27:39,441 Speaker 1: that if he did this once, what else has he done? 554 00:27:39,840 --> 00:27:42,080 Speaker 2: Absolutely I hope. 555 00:27:41,880 --> 00:27:44,600 Speaker 1: That police he lives in Victoria, we can say that 556 00:27:45,080 --> 00:27:48,561 Speaker 1: we'll be looking at him for other not dissimilar crimes. 557 00:27:49,321 --> 00:27:51,681 Speaker 3: And that holds out some hope, I guess. 558 00:27:52,441 --> 00:27:56,321 Speaker 4: I hope Victorian police are doing their job because I 559 00:27:56,521 --> 00:27:59,360 Speaker 4: do not feel New South Wales police have done their job. 560 00:27:59,801 --> 00:28:03,801 Speaker 4: The whole process has just been an absolute circus and 561 00:28:04,001 --> 00:28:04,880 Speaker 4: we're still fight. 562 00:28:05,801 --> 00:28:08,921 Speaker 2: We shouldn't have to fight, you know, to be treated. 563 00:28:09,201 --> 00:28:13,041 Speaker 4: I remember being up there were Sydney searchdogs being treated 564 00:28:13,281 --> 00:28:15,840 Speaker 4: like where garbage, Like where the perpetrator. 565 00:28:16,840 --> 00:28:19,241 Speaker 2: That's not okay. 566 00:28:19,561 --> 00:28:24,521 Speaker 6: Where are the victim's family here like we're getting treated 567 00:28:24,880 --> 00:28:26,680 Speaker 6: there's no communication whatsoever. 568 00:28:27,160 --> 00:28:29,481 Speaker 2: They disregard anything that we say. 569 00:28:29,840 --> 00:28:33,961 Speaker 4: But then to be just treated like like we're rubbish. 570 00:28:35,521 --> 00:28:38,001 Speaker 1: It's extremely odd because you're referring to the search that 571 00:28:38,041 --> 00:28:42,161 Speaker 1: took place this year and Sidney search dogs were Chris Darcy, 572 00:28:42,201 --> 00:28:45,321 Speaker 1: who's a legend to so many families in this situation, 573 00:28:46,041 --> 00:28:49,361 Speaker 1: and a bone was found. Police came down, declared a 574 00:28:49,401 --> 00:28:54,401 Speaker 1: crime scene, but there was no discussion with your family. 575 00:28:55,601 --> 00:28:58,521 Speaker 2: They thought it was a joke. Honestly, the way that 576 00:28:58,561 --> 00:28:59,281 Speaker 2: they were standing. 577 00:28:59,321 --> 00:29:01,721 Speaker 4: There one police officer that was actually on duty then 578 00:29:01,801 --> 00:29:02,681 Speaker 4: that was talking to us. 579 00:29:02,801 --> 00:29:06,401 Speaker 2: When Chris Daci actually called to come in, he was 580 00:29:06,441 --> 00:29:07,280 Speaker 2: beautiful about it. 581 00:29:07,361 --> 00:29:09,960 Speaker 4: He said, yep, you know, they'll they'll do all the 582 00:29:10,001 --> 00:29:11,601 Speaker 4: soil samples, all that stuff. 583 00:29:11,641 --> 00:29:12,761 Speaker 2: Forensics will be here. 584 00:29:13,401 --> 00:29:15,521 Speaker 4: The other ones kind of stood around like, oh yeah, 585 00:29:15,521 --> 00:29:18,440 Speaker 4: whatever kind of thing, but one was in particular, he 586 00:29:18,481 --> 00:29:20,841 Speaker 4: was awesome. Come the next day though. 587 00:29:20,881 --> 00:29:23,761 Speaker 2: They're not even there on time, they're hours late. They 588 00:29:23,801 --> 00:29:24,161 Speaker 2: come in. 589 00:29:24,601 --> 00:29:27,441 Speaker 4: Where if they searched for these bones for starters, because 590 00:29:27,441 --> 00:29:28,720 Speaker 4: they didn't bring anything in to. 591 00:29:28,761 --> 00:29:31,601 Speaker 2: Search for the bones, they didn't walk out with anything. 592 00:29:32,161 --> 00:29:34,601 Speaker 4: They ignored the family, didn't acknowledge the family, didn't even 593 00:29:34,641 --> 00:29:37,081 Speaker 4: say hello, or hey, this is what's gone on, or yes, 594 00:29:37,121 --> 00:29:39,641 Speaker 4: we've walked to the nothing, they've walked in. 595 00:29:40,081 --> 00:29:42,681 Speaker 2: It was all for show, and they've walked back out 596 00:29:42,881 --> 00:29:43,321 Speaker 2: for show. 597 00:29:43,521 --> 00:29:47,881 Speaker 6: Meanwhile, my dad's left there this is potentially somewhere that 598 00:29:47,921 --> 00:29:51,801 Speaker 6: his sister's remains could possibly be, and you have not 599 00:29:52,121 --> 00:29:56,081 Speaker 6: acknowledged him or given him some kind of counseling or 600 00:29:56,121 --> 00:29:57,081 Speaker 6: something like. 601 00:29:57,761 --> 00:29:59,681 Speaker 2: It was all for the TV show. It was all 602 00:29:59,721 --> 00:30:02,240 Speaker 2: for the news. It was that's all it was. And 603 00:30:02,281 --> 00:30:05,441 Speaker 2: then to hear on the radio, Oh, yeah there were 604 00:30:05,441 --> 00:30:08,641 Speaker 2: barons found, but they were animal bones. Are you serious? 605 00:30:08,681 --> 00:30:10,641 Speaker 2: Like you didn't even talk to the family. 606 00:30:10,961 --> 00:30:12,761 Speaker 4: I had to hear it on the radio and then 607 00:30:12,801 --> 00:30:15,841 Speaker 4: call my dad and say, hey, this is what's been said. 608 00:30:15,921 --> 00:30:17,761 Speaker 2: And then a piece of paper gets. 609 00:30:17,521 --> 00:30:21,241 Speaker 4: Released to him like it's a joke. It's honestly a joke. 610 00:30:22,001 --> 00:30:24,961 Speaker 1: By contrast, you had such amazing service from Frank san 611 00:30:25,041 --> 00:30:27,361 Speaker 1: Vitali and Damian Luhn. You think, I mean, I think 612 00:30:27,361 --> 00:30:29,601 Speaker 1: that's all they were going beyond the call of duty. 613 00:30:29,641 --> 00:30:33,241 Speaker 1: But this is way below the minimum standards of not 614 00:30:33,361 --> 00:30:37,721 Speaker 1: just police work, but civility, how people should treat each other. 615 00:30:38,401 --> 00:30:42,281 Speaker 4: Yeah, can imagine what they are feeling here. They are 616 00:30:42,361 --> 00:30:46,521 Speaker 4: they've dedicated their lives to policing and. 617 00:30:46,401 --> 00:30:50,561 Speaker 6: You're basically throwing in their face what they've worked their 618 00:30:50,681 --> 00:30:51,521 Speaker 6: entire lives for. 619 00:30:51,721 --> 00:30:51,921 Speaker 3: Life. 620 00:30:52,921 --> 00:30:56,921 Speaker 4: To me is just it's hard wrenching to watch Frank 621 00:30:57,201 --> 00:31:00,641 Speaker 4: and his emotions because he can see that he's done. 622 00:31:00,521 --> 00:31:01,041 Speaker 2: The right thing. 623 00:31:01,041 --> 00:31:04,960 Speaker 4: He's done, you know, everything by the books above and beyond, 624 00:31:05,841 --> 00:31:08,521 Speaker 4: and then they've just come in and it's like, nah. 625 00:31:09,841 --> 00:31:12,000 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, I mean, I'll never forget doing an interview 626 00:31:12,041 --> 00:31:15,921 Speaker 1: with Frank and Damien a few years ago, and when 627 00:31:15,921 --> 00:31:19,761 Speaker 1: we started talking about how Frank felt about his failure 628 00:31:19,801 --> 00:31:22,721 Speaker 1: to put Mercury away, he was inconsolable. 629 00:31:23,001 --> 00:31:24,401 Speaker 2: Oh absolutely, big man. 630 00:31:24,441 --> 00:31:26,960 Speaker 1: He just the sobs came and it was it was 631 00:31:27,001 --> 00:31:28,881 Speaker 1: hard to listen to it, but it just showed me 632 00:31:29,361 --> 00:31:33,440 Speaker 1: how much he cared and how much trauma he'd taken 633 00:31:33,481 --> 00:31:34,801 Speaker 1: on board as well. 634 00:31:35,441 --> 00:31:35,681 Speaker 6: Well. 635 00:31:36,001 --> 00:31:39,281 Speaker 4: Imagine knowing that you have your your man that has 636 00:31:39,321 --> 00:31:42,001 Speaker 4: confessed to this in full detail. 637 00:31:42,801 --> 00:31:46,041 Speaker 2: You've got the person you know, and yet he's walking 638 00:31:46,081 --> 00:31:46,760 Speaker 2: the streets. 639 00:31:47,081 --> 00:31:51,281 Speaker 4: Damien and Frank retired police, you know, detectives Damien Link Cafe. 640 00:31:51,521 --> 00:31:54,601 Speaker 2: You know, teachers. It's not like they're just a little 641 00:31:54,641 --> 00:31:57,041 Speaker 2: country town kind of detective. 642 00:31:57,161 --> 00:32:02,201 Speaker 4: There weren't major cases, but you're treating them like they're 643 00:32:02,201 --> 00:32:05,041 Speaker 4: also rubbish. 644 00:32:05,121 --> 00:32:06,641 Speaker 1: Yeah, and they won't even really I mean when they 645 00:32:06,681 --> 00:32:09,081 Speaker 1: were put on the case. So we're both towards the 646 00:32:09,161 --> 00:32:12,281 Speaker 1: end of their careers, and Frank hatt had health issues. 647 00:32:12,361 --> 00:32:14,081 Speaker 1: I think Damien had as well, and they were sort 648 00:32:14,121 --> 00:32:16,641 Speaker 1: of like giving him something to do. He's a thirty 649 00:32:16,681 --> 00:32:18,361 Speaker 1: boxes of material. I have a look through this and 650 00:32:18,361 --> 00:32:20,121 Speaker 1: see what you come up with. 651 00:32:20,201 --> 00:32:20,361 Speaker 3: You know. 652 00:32:20,841 --> 00:32:22,881 Speaker 1: Sure enough, they smacked it out of the park. 653 00:32:23,201 --> 00:32:23,761 Speaker 3: Unbelievable. 654 00:32:23,801 --> 00:32:26,521 Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely, yeah, yeah, yeah. And that's the kind of 655 00:32:26,601 --> 00:32:30,081 Speaker 2: detectives they are. I don't think they ever thought that 656 00:32:30,241 --> 00:32:31,121 Speaker 2: anything would come of it. 657 00:32:31,321 --> 00:32:33,200 Speaker 4: I think that was just like, oh, here we go, 658 00:32:33,321 --> 00:32:35,881 Speaker 4: we'll just you know, let them pass time. He's something 659 00:32:35,961 --> 00:32:38,641 Speaker 4: for them to do kind of thing. I can't imagine 660 00:32:38,681 --> 00:32:43,201 Speaker 4: what they're feeling and thinking, because I know I see Frank, 661 00:32:43,721 --> 00:32:46,241 Speaker 4: and every time I see Frank, he takes it to heart, 662 00:32:46,441 --> 00:32:49,761 Speaker 4: and I worry that he takes on too much because 663 00:32:49,961 --> 00:32:52,841 Speaker 4: he's taking it on personally, like his family, Especially when 664 00:32:52,881 --> 00:32:54,480 Speaker 4: you know that it's the right person. 665 00:32:55,121 --> 00:32:58,281 Speaker 1: There's no other suspect, and I think that confession needed 666 00:32:58,321 --> 00:32:59,521 Speaker 1: to be tested in a court. 667 00:32:59,921 --> 00:33:01,681 Speaker 3: I mean, at least go back to the coroner. 668 00:33:01,921 --> 00:33:04,881 Speaker 1: I mean that's something that I also believe could still happen, 669 00:33:05,361 --> 00:33:08,481 Speaker 1: is for the coroner to say, Okay, well we couldn't 670 00:33:08,521 --> 00:33:13,121 Speaker 1: admit this confession into evidence, but let's hold an inquest. 671 00:33:13,161 --> 00:33:16,241 Speaker 1: This is new and fresh, compelling evidence that needs to 672 00:33:16,281 --> 00:33:19,401 Speaker 1: be dealt with. So a coroner could say, on the 673 00:33:19,441 --> 00:33:25,000 Speaker 1: balance of probabilities, based on this inadmissible statement, Mercury is 674 00:33:25,041 --> 00:33:28,480 Speaker 1: the man, and have him sit in the box and 675 00:33:28,521 --> 00:33:29,521 Speaker 1: be asked questions. 676 00:33:30,281 --> 00:33:33,721 Speaker 4: Absolutely absolutely, well, I think it will ever happen. 677 00:33:33,761 --> 00:33:36,721 Speaker 2: No, I don't. I honestly don't believe this will ever 678 00:33:36,801 --> 00:33:39,440 Speaker 2: go to court. Doesn't matter what we do, I don't. 679 00:33:40,321 --> 00:33:40,881 Speaker 2: I don't think so. 680 00:33:41,641 --> 00:33:46,321 Speaker 1: The other head scratcher for me was when that witness 681 00:33:46,361 --> 00:33:49,721 Speaker 1: came forward from Wollongong. He's now a successful businessman. Back 682 00:33:49,761 --> 00:33:51,761 Speaker 1: in the day, he was an immigrant with his family 683 00:33:51,801 --> 00:33:55,960 Speaker 1: down there, and he saw on that day a person 684 00:33:56,241 --> 00:33:59,921 Speaker 1: carrying away a small child. He didn't say anything at 685 00:33:59,961 --> 00:34:02,881 Speaker 1: the time, he didn't realize the significance, but over the 686 00:34:02,961 --> 00:34:07,200 Speaker 1: years then he saw Mercury get arrested for it and charged. 687 00:34:07,201 --> 00:34:10,521 Speaker 1: You thought, well, okay, job's done. Then he gets cases 688 00:34:10,561 --> 00:34:13,841 Speaker 1: dismissed and he thinks he thinks I should come forward. 689 00:34:14,041 --> 00:34:19,561 Speaker 1: And the police to this day have not interviewed him. 690 00:34:20,241 --> 00:34:25,561 Speaker 4: Nope, Nor have they interviewed Mercury's work colleagues. Okay, like 691 00:34:25,761 --> 00:34:29,961 Speaker 4: every witness that has come forward, they have not spoken 692 00:34:29,961 --> 00:34:30,281 Speaker 4: to them. 693 00:34:30,801 --> 00:34:33,681 Speaker 2: Not once. One was a quick on the phone and 694 00:34:33,761 --> 00:34:35,241 Speaker 2: see you later. Never spoke to again. 695 00:34:35,521 --> 00:34:39,241 Speaker 4: No, and these are full detail, you know, things that 696 00:34:39,281 --> 00:34:42,361 Speaker 4: the witnesses have seen Mercury. Drew is like who better 697 00:34:42,481 --> 00:34:45,561 Speaker 4: than his work colleague that'd been working with him for. 698 00:34:45,641 --> 00:34:49,241 Speaker 2: Years, that knows Mercury. No, you know, and you won't 699 00:34:49,241 --> 00:34:53,761 Speaker 2: speak to him. That's ludicrous like that? How do you 700 00:34:53,881 --> 00:34:59,041 Speaker 2: not family members of Mercury? It's just such a weird situation. 701 00:34:59,521 --> 00:35:02,441 Speaker 4: I just I can't if this was one of the 702 00:35:02,521 --> 00:35:07,281 Speaker 4: detective's children, or New South Wales police or a politician's child. 703 00:35:07,521 --> 00:35:10,481 Speaker 2: Would we even be having this conversation. Don't mean to 704 00:35:10,481 --> 00:35:12,441 Speaker 2: bring this up and whatever, but you know that des 705 00:35:12,841 --> 00:35:14,761 Speaker 2: who shot you know the police officers. 706 00:35:15,241 --> 00:35:18,721 Speaker 4: You are doing everything in your power to manhunt this 707 00:35:18,881 --> 00:35:21,401 Speaker 4: person because it was police officers. 708 00:35:21,561 --> 00:35:23,721 Speaker 2: But for a three year old little girl who has 709 00:35:23,921 --> 00:35:27,401 Speaker 2: you have a confession, a detailed confession. 710 00:35:26,881 --> 00:35:29,201 Speaker 4: And you won't even do your job, but yet you're 711 00:35:29,201 --> 00:35:32,761 Speaker 4: still looking for this other person. That to me, I 712 00:35:32,841 --> 00:35:35,441 Speaker 4: want to scream at the top of my logs because 713 00:35:35,641 --> 00:35:37,401 Speaker 4: that's not our justice system. 714 00:35:37,561 --> 00:35:39,841 Speaker 2: But that's not right. How are you. 715 00:35:39,921 --> 00:35:43,361 Speaker 4: Getting more privileged because that's a police officer versus a 716 00:35:43,361 --> 00:35:44,361 Speaker 4: three year old child. 717 00:35:44,841 --> 00:35:47,801 Speaker 2: It should be the same on every case. You should 718 00:35:47,841 --> 00:35:49,201 Speaker 2: be putting all. 719 00:35:49,081 --> 00:35:52,121 Speaker 4: Your heart and soul into getting their answers, especially when 720 00:35:52,121 --> 00:35:53,201 Speaker 4: the answers are right in front of you. 721 00:35:53,441 --> 00:35:55,321 Speaker 2: It's been handed to you on a silver clatter. Here 722 00:35:55,321 --> 00:35:55,641 Speaker 2: it is. 723 00:35:55,681 --> 00:35:58,961 Speaker 4: These two detectives have gone above and beyond, and yet 724 00:35:58,961 --> 00:36:00,081 Speaker 4: you're not doing anything about it. 725 00:36:00,281 --> 00:36:02,520 Speaker 2: But you're using all the resources to go and track 726 00:36:02,561 --> 00:36:05,641 Speaker 2: down this person in the middle of a bush. Yeah, 727 00:36:05,761 --> 00:36:06,561 Speaker 2: it angers me. 728 00:36:07,481 --> 00:36:08,361 Speaker 3: I'm sure it does. 729 00:36:08,761 --> 00:36:11,801 Speaker 1: This inquiry, I guess, is another moment where your family 730 00:36:11,881 --> 00:36:16,441 Speaker 1: can relate your experience of not just the possible culprit, 731 00:36:16,561 --> 00:36:19,161 Speaker 1: but how the investigation was run. 732 00:36:19,721 --> 00:36:21,081 Speaker 3: Do you think you're going to go up for it? 733 00:36:22,361 --> 00:36:25,321 Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, I probably. 734 00:36:25,801 --> 00:36:29,241 Speaker 2: I want to be there for the whole if I can. 735 00:36:30,161 --> 00:36:32,361 Speaker 4: Like for the first time I went to a long 736 00:36:32,681 --> 00:36:35,841 Speaker 4: library and to be in a room with other people 737 00:36:36,561 --> 00:36:39,721 Speaker 4: that kind of had similar stories to us. I didn't 738 00:36:39,761 --> 00:36:42,841 Speaker 4: realize how many of us there were that are treated 739 00:36:42,881 --> 00:36:45,801 Speaker 4: the same way, like we are the perpetrator and it 740 00:36:45,841 --> 00:36:46,481 Speaker 4: shouldn't happen. 741 00:36:47,281 --> 00:36:48,001 Speaker 2: I think this is. 742 00:36:48,201 --> 00:36:51,921 Speaker 4: Also about fighting for them and for their families. 743 00:36:52,081 --> 00:36:52,721 Speaker 2: Not just Shelly. 744 00:36:54,201 --> 00:36:57,041 Speaker 1: It certainly is, and I think there's so many people, 745 00:36:57,081 --> 00:36:59,401 Speaker 1: as you say, who were suffering in exactly the same 746 00:36:59,441 --> 00:37:04,481 Speaker 1: situation as you. They're dealing with this intergenerational trauma. How 747 00:37:04,521 --> 00:37:07,121 Speaker 1: it's whole out your family, I mean, none of you. 748 00:37:07,121 --> 00:37:10,001 Speaker 1: Your dad Ricky is not a bad person. He's done 749 00:37:10,041 --> 00:37:13,321 Speaker 1: things that you don't agree with. He's credited a distance 750 00:37:13,681 --> 00:37:16,361 Speaker 1: in your relationship, but he's not a bad person. And 751 00:37:16,401 --> 00:37:23,081 Speaker 1: I think that your experience will help others to understand 752 00:37:23,121 --> 00:37:26,561 Speaker 1: what they're going through in their families. You weren't there. 753 00:37:26,721 --> 00:37:31,601 Speaker 1: You weren't there when Cheryl disappeared. You unfortunately looked like Cheryl. 754 00:37:32,121 --> 00:37:35,801 Speaker 1: You remind your father of Cheryl. And I think this 755 00:37:35,841 --> 00:37:38,961 Speaker 1: would be a very common experience for people. What advice 756 00:37:39,001 --> 00:37:41,001 Speaker 1: would you give people? And you're still going through it, 757 00:37:41,081 --> 00:37:43,281 Speaker 1: so you're not expecting. 758 00:37:43,561 --> 00:37:46,681 Speaker 4: Yeah, it's very hard for me because you know the 759 00:37:46,721 --> 00:37:49,121 Speaker 4: fact that, yeah, I look like Cheryl. I was the 760 00:37:49,161 --> 00:37:52,561 Speaker 4: firstborn girl after Cheryl had been taken. So it was 761 00:37:52,601 --> 00:37:54,721 Speaker 4: a lot of pressure, you know, even for my name 762 00:37:54,841 --> 00:37:57,001 Speaker 4: to tell my mum, Hey, you know, you've got to 763 00:37:57,041 --> 00:37:59,201 Speaker 4: include Cheryl's name in Melanie's name. 764 00:38:00,081 --> 00:38:01,201 Speaker 2: It was a lot of pressure for me. 765 00:38:01,361 --> 00:38:04,801 Speaker 4: So I can only hope or try and help other 766 00:38:04,801 --> 00:38:07,761 Speaker 4: peop peopaul that have gone through the same kind of trauma, 767 00:38:07,761 --> 00:38:12,121 Speaker 4: to try and ease them, help them, make them understand, 768 00:38:12,681 --> 00:38:15,561 Speaker 4: make other people aware of you know, Yes, the child 769 00:38:15,601 --> 00:38:18,841 Speaker 4: was taken that day, but it affects everybody like it 770 00:38:18,961 --> 00:38:22,401 Speaker 4: just doesn't affect you know. Yes, sure was taken all 771 00:38:22,441 --> 00:38:25,161 Speaker 4: my grandparents and my dad, but then it's how it 772 00:38:25,241 --> 00:38:28,481 Speaker 4: shapes his life and then the children of him and 773 00:38:28,521 --> 00:38:29,121 Speaker 4: so forth. 774 00:38:30,161 --> 00:38:32,401 Speaker 2: We all take something from that. 775 00:38:33,721 --> 00:38:35,681 Speaker 3: Yeah. Now I often say this. 776 00:38:35,721 --> 00:38:37,761 Speaker 1: I'm the son of a psychiatrist, right, so this this 777 00:38:38,121 --> 00:38:39,561 Speaker 1: is my way of looking at the world that I 778 00:38:39,601 --> 00:38:43,161 Speaker 1: ask you, have you had any family counseling, sat down 779 00:38:43,201 --> 00:38:46,201 Speaker 1: with somebody, do you think it's time to do that? 780 00:38:47,121 --> 00:38:50,001 Speaker 4: Should we do it? I don't know for it's time. 781 00:38:50,521 --> 00:38:52,001 Speaker 4: I don't know if my dad's ready for that. 782 00:38:52,361 --> 00:38:53,401 Speaker 2: But should we do it. 783 00:38:53,441 --> 00:38:56,881 Speaker 4: Absolutely we should. Should I sleep counseling, Yes, I should. 784 00:38:57,321 --> 00:38:59,321 Speaker 4: Me and Dad joke about it all the time. 785 00:39:00,401 --> 00:39:01,681 Speaker 3: Yeah, it's a tough one. 786 00:39:01,721 --> 00:39:03,960 Speaker 1: I had issues with my mother and she's now gone, 787 00:39:03,961 --> 00:39:05,881 Speaker 1: and she'd actually suggested a couple of times that we 788 00:39:05,921 --> 00:39:07,321 Speaker 1: have that, and I wish we'd done it as well, 789 00:39:07,841 --> 00:39:10,521 Speaker 1: And now she's gone, we can't do it. So I 790 00:39:10,561 --> 00:39:13,001 Speaker 1: guess again, I see it through that prison. Dad was 791 00:39:13,041 --> 00:39:15,761 Speaker 1: a psychiatrist, and but he wasn't that good at having 792 00:39:15,801 --> 00:39:20,321 Speaker 1: these conversations either. But you know, in this unique circumstance, 793 00:39:20,361 --> 00:39:21,881 Speaker 1: I think that would be a good idea. But I 794 00:39:21,961 --> 00:39:24,081 Speaker 1: think the first thing is, Dadda, have a listen to 795 00:39:24,081 --> 00:39:28,081 Speaker 1: this here your heartfelt love for him, and you'll desire for, 796 00:39:28,321 --> 00:39:30,281 Speaker 1: you know, some happiness in the future between you and 797 00:39:30,641 --> 00:39:33,480 Speaker 1: I'll do everything I can to promote that. I really 798 00:39:33,481 --> 00:39:37,401 Speaker 1: thank you for sharing these They're very difficult notions and thoughts. 799 00:39:38,201 --> 00:39:42,241 Speaker 4: Yes, yeah, thank you for helping me share that with Dad. 800 00:39:43,441 --> 00:39:46,561 Speaker 4: I'd been counseling for a very long time, to be honest, Adam, 801 00:39:47,081 --> 00:39:52,081 Speaker 4: so with Dad would probably go broke because that's how 802 00:39:52,121 --> 00:39:53,641 Speaker 4: much counseling we probably need. 803 00:39:54,401 --> 00:39:56,401 Speaker 1: Yeah, but I think what it does do is provide 804 00:39:56,401 --> 00:40:00,521 Speaker 1: a framework going forward, and you know, the counsel is 805 00:40:00,521 --> 00:40:02,561 Speaker 1: never going to find the answer, but it's going to 806 00:40:02,601 --> 00:40:05,801 Speaker 1: allow you to speak your truth to each other and 807 00:40:06,121 --> 00:40:09,321 Speaker 1: brought out of love and trying to find that language 808 00:40:09,521 --> 00:40:12,721 Speaker 1: between you for a new framework and to accept the 809 00:40:12,761 --> 00:40:15,321 Speaker 1: possibility there may never be an answer. And that's the 810 00:40:15,401 --> 00:40:18,921 Speaker 1: sad reality. There are hundreds and hundreds of cases in 811 00:40:18,961 --> 00:40:21,721 Speaker 1: Australia that I've looked at it personally but I know 812 00:40:21,841 --> 00:40:25,641 Speaker 1: of but there is no answer. So at a certain 813 00:40:25,681 --> 00:40:28,241 Speaker 1: point we have to live for the living and reconcile 814 00:40:28,281 --> 00:40:28,761 Speaker 1: the past. 815 00:40:29,801 --> 00:40:33,281 Speaker 4: Yes, yeah, so here I think that's if anything could 816 00:40:33,321 --> 00:40:36,561 Speaker 4: come out of this, it's for my dad to realize 817 00:40:36,601 --> 00:40:39,241 Speaker 4: that we are in the land of living and to 818 00:40:39,361 --> 00:40:40,000 Speaker 4: not as. 819 00:40:39,961 --> 00:40:41,521 Speaker 2: Much as Cheryl is his focus. 820 00:40:42,001 --> 00:40:45,681 Speaker 4: You know, you've got four beautiful grandchildren, You've got a daughter. 821 00:40:46,401 --> 00:40:49,441 Speaker 4: Sometimes it's important to be present too. If we can 822 00:40:49,481 --> 00:40:51,561 Speaker 4: walk away with him understanding. 823 00:40:51,001 --> 00:40:52,761 Speaker 2: That, I'm happy. 824 00:40:57,881 --> 00:40:58,961 Speaker 3: That's Melanie Grimmer. 825 00:40:59,201 --> 00:41:01,601 Speaker 1: I'm sure there are people out there who've gone through 826 00:41:01,961 --> 00:41:07,561 Speaker 1: similar traumas and the intergeneration nature of this means it 827 00:41:07,601 --> 00:41:12,161 Speaker 1: doesn't go away. And I think I love Ricky struggle. 828 00:41:12,561 --> 00:41:15,041 Speaker 1: I'll always back him, but I also want him to 829 00:41:15,081 --> 00:41:19,081 Speaker 1: hear what his daughter's saying. It's time to have those conversations. 830 00:41:19,841 --> 00:41:21,881 Speaker 1: It's time to resolve the past, no matter what the 831 00:41:21,921 --> 00:41:26,721 Speaker 1: future holds. This resonates for hundreds of families around Australia 832 00:41:26,801 --> 00:41:30,401 Speaker 1: who have never got answers to their tragedies. I hope 833 00:41:30,401 --> 00:41:33,201 Speaker 1: in the new year this Parlament inquiry does bring hope. 834 00:41:33,361 --> 00:41:35,841 Speaker 1: But I think it's also about dialogue. It's about moving 835 00:41:35,881 --> 00:41:39,521 Speaker 1: forward with love, and that's what we've heard today. If 836 00:41:39,561 --> 00:41:41,641 Speaker 1: you can help in this situation, you can always call 837 00:41:41,681 --> 00:41:43,801 Speaker 1: crime Stoppers. Even though you might not trust the police 838 00:41:43,801 --> 00:41:45,561 Speaker 1: after what you've heard in this podcast and the whole 839 00:41:45,641 --> 00:41:48,161 Speaker 1: Grim investigation, I still do believe that there are people 840 00:41:48,561 --> 00:41:50,881 Speaker 1: like Damian Luna and Frank sam Vittali still in New 841 00:41:50,881 --> 00:41:53,801 Speaker 1: South Wales Police or in other states that do care 842 00:41:53,921 --> 00:41:56,321 Speaker 1: enough to have some dash to have a go. So 843 00:41:56,561 --> 00:41:59,161 Speaker 1: you can always call crime Stoppers one one hundred, triple three, 844 00:41:59,201 --> 00:42:02,921 Speaker 1: triples zero. You can also put submissions into the New 845 00:42:02,961 --> 00:42:05,841 Speaker 1: South Wales Parliament inquiry. Will put then for that in 846 00:42:05,881 --> 00:42:09,521 Speaker 1: the show notes. But failing all that, you can always 847 00:42:09,601 --> 00:42:11,881 Speaker 1: email me and I'll have a red hot go. Adam 848 00:42:11,881 --> 00:42:14,921 Speaker 1: Shander writer at gmail dot com Thank you for listening. 849 00:42:15,161 --> 00:42:17,361 Speaker 3: This has been Adam Shan for real crime.