Speaker 1: None of us know when a child goes to any
Speaker 1: school anyway, any of us who you're going to meet
Speaker 1: in any classroom, let alone in the whole school. It's
Speaker 1: a bit of a raffle. And in this raffle, you
Speaker 1: drew the joker you didn't draw.
Speaker 2: I try to say to him, and I say it
Speaker 2: over and over again. Every person's car, you steal, every
Speaker 2: house you go into, you're hurting someone like it. You're
Speaker 2: not physically hurting them. And I don't believe he would
Speaker 2: physically hurt anyone. But you're hurting them, You're giving them trauma.
Speaker 1: I'm Andrew Rule. This is Life and Crimes Today. In
Speaker 1: the studio, we have a lady that I don't know,
Speaker 1: but I spoke to her at length just yesterday. And
Speaker 1: I did that because a friend of mine met her
Speaker 1: husband recently. He's a hard worker, he's got a good business.
Speaker 1: They have a teenage boy, so he's only a schoolboy
Speaker 1: who's never had a shave theoretically, and yet they find
Speaker 1: themselves as the parents of the youngest boy that they
Speaker 1: now see in the last twelve months as someone who's
Speaker 1: sort of on the road to being a young criminal.
Speaker 1: They are devastated by his actions, he has essentially run
Speaker 1: away from home. He's joined a gang of lunatic carthieves
Speaker 1: and burglars, as they say, and he and others they
Speaker 1: use drugs. That's sort of part of their motivation. They
Speaker 1: are addicted not only to drugs in this instance's ice,
Speaker 1: but also to the adrenaline surge of crime. Welcome to
Speaker 1: our podcast. It is so kind of you to come
Speaker 1: and talk to us. And I was so impressed with
Speaker 1: the rundown that you gave me about how your life,
Speaker 1: your family life has devolved from a very good place
Speaker 1: two years ago to something that's really quite desperate for
Speaker 1: you now.
Speaker 2: Yeah, thank you, Andrew. Yeah, it's all been a bit
Speaker 2: of a whirlwind twelve months for us. Never a million
Speaker 2: years expected my child would be doing these type of things.
Speaker 1: Tell us about yourself just briefly.
Speaker 2: You I'm a married obviously to my husband. I have
Speaker 2: my own business. My husband's got his own business in
Speaker 2: a lovely house, and we're go on holidays every year
Speaker 2: and we're a very solid unit family.
Speaker 1: Right and until you know, last summer we're saying last
Speaker 1: summer with me, Yeah we are. Then, Yeah, it was
Speaker 1: all pretty good.
Speaker 2: It was excellent we were overseas, just prior to all
Speaker 2: of this kind of exploding.
Speaker 1: All together all together. How was she? Youngest spoke We
Speaker 1: can't name him here, of course, and we won't, but
Speaker 1: you're youngest fellow, the kid, the boy, the lad. What
Speaker 1: was he like there on that trip away? Great?
Speaker 2: Was his normal self like? He was out for dinner
Speaker 2: with us, We were doing all the touristy things. There
Speaker 2: was no signs of any kind of of this kind
Speaker 2: of behavior. Anyway. It had a bit of a rough
Speaker 2: time time at school, and he didn't love school, which
Speaker 2: you know a lot of kids at the moment don't.
Speaker 2: So we had moved in schools.
Speaker 1: When did he move.
Speaker 2: He moved last year. We moved him onto the new
Speaker 2: school and he was seemed to be settling in quite well.
Speaker 2: They had some good programs available for him. The school
Speaker 2: were brilliant, and he unfortunately started meeting some new kids
Speaker 2: at that school that just little things started. He would
Speaker 2: go out to see a friend and he wouldn't be there,
Speaker 2: and he'd be elsewhere elsewhere.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm but he's really down the street.
Speaker 2: And a couple of times we picked him up at
Speaker 2: odd places and he would ring us to pick him
Speaker 2: up and he was in the middle of kind of
Speaker 2: national park type things, and we were kind of like,
Speaker 2: you know, what is going on? And then that kind
Speaker 2: of developed into he left the home under pretty extreme circumstances.
Speaker 2: There was lots of arguing and tears and fighting and
Speaker 2: trying for us, trying to keep him there.
Speaker 1: And what was his excuse for leaving home. I'm leaving
Speaker 1: home because.
Speaker 2: He wanted to see his friends. And I was effectively saying,
Speaker 2: you're not seeing some of these friends anymore. So he
Speaker 2: was hellbent that he.
Speaker 1: Was one friend in particular at the new school. Now,
Speaker 1: none of us know when a child goes to any
Speaker 1: school anyway, any of us are you're going to meet
Speaker 1: in any classroom, let alone in the whole school. And
Speaker 1: that applies to the pupils and bloes to teacher. Yes,
Speaker 1: you know, one bad teacher, one good teacher.
Speaker 2: That's right.
Speaker 1: It's a bit of a raffle. And in this raffle
Speaker 1: you drew. You know, you drew the joker. You didn't
Speaker 1: draw because he fell in with one particular buck. You
Speaker 1: think that was a bad influence, Yeah, a stronger personality, Yeah, I.
Speaker 2: Think what do you think this boy had been already
Speaker 2: kind of into this scheme of things, and probably then
Speaker 2: it was just starting with some drugs and some maybe
Speaker 2: shop thefts type behavior that I think he met him
Speaker 2: and then very quickly met his friends, and so it
Speaker 2: escalated very quickly with a small group of them at
Speaker 2: the time, and that group just grew.
Speaker 1: When you met that boy, the scallywag boy, and he
Speaker 1: came to your house, yes, and you been the friendly,
Speaker 1: positive person that you obviously are. You were welcoming. At
Speaker 1: the back of your brain, you thought, I'm not really
Speaker 1: love kid, yeah, but you know, he's my son's friend.
Speaker 1: I'll be nice to him. You also met that boy's mother.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I did. And when I met his mother when
Speaker 2: he came to my home, I thought, oh, I'm not
Speaker 2: really sure, but I was like benefit of the day out,
Speaker 2: you know, my son's friend. And then one night, while
Speaker 2: I was actually searching for my son, I met his
Speaker 2: the friend's mum, and she warned me and said, you know,
Speaker 2: it's probably best that you keep your son away from
Speaker 2: my son. My son's not in a good place at
Speaker 2: the moment, right And I just as mums do you
Speaker 2: know to her back and reassured her that now I'm
Speaker 2: sure you know, they're just boys. You know, they'll be okay,
Speaker 2: they'll be okay, and now at.
Speaker 1: Stuff, all that good stuff.
Speaker 2: If we say yeah, looking back, I think, oh wow,
Speaker 2: maybe I should have listened a little bit more. But
Speaker 2: you know, trying to keep him away from this group
Speaker 2: then was just impossible. He was so drawn to them.
Speaker 1: That is a very good point, and it's something I've
Speaker 1: discussed with other people, you know, at my place of
Speaker 1: work here at the Herald Sun and a colleague of
Speaker 1: ours who's got teenage boys. He said, it's all very well,
Speaker 1: people saying, you know what, what are the parents doing?
Speaker 1: Why aren't that at home? He said, If a fifteen
Speaker 1: year old fifteen sixteen wants to just head off and
Speaker 1: go somewhere and they're willing to defy you, what do
Speaker 1: you do? Do you handcut them? He said? It's not
Speaker 1: actually that much you can do.
Speaker 2: There isn't Physically, Yeah.
Speaker 1: Once you've lost the sort of mental it's like controlling
Speaker 1: you know, a horse that weighs a ton or a
Speaker 1: or a rott while a dog. Once you've lost control,
Speaker 1: you've lost control. You can't actually force them physically.
Speaker 2: No, And even at the time when he was away
Speaker 2: from the home, and I think he'd been away maybe
Speaker 2: just a week at that time, and I was, you know,
Speaker 2: all night looking for my husband and I would be
Speaker 2: out all hours of the night looking for him, my
Speaker 2: older children driving around, will just search for him. And
Speaker 2: when I got him back this particular day, I had
Speaker 2: said to the because obviously the police were aware that
Speaker 2: he was missing. As such, I said to the police,
Speaker 2: I'm going to lock his door, like I'm going to
Speaker 2: lock him in his room. And they said, you can't
Speaker 2: lock him in his room, and if you do, and
Speaker 2: if he has a way of contacting someone, you will
Speaker 2: be the one in charge because you're ultimately locking him
Speaker 2: in there. So I'm like, what else am I supposed
Speaker 2: to do? So he came home this one night after
Speaker 2: we picked him up from the police with a allegedly
Speaker 2: stolen vehicle, and he was just a different kid.
Speaker 1: He was.
Speaker 2: The next morning, I woke him up and said, you know,
Speaker 2: get up, you're not sleeping all day just because you've
Speaker 2: been out all night. And it just turned really really
Speaker 2: crazy after that, and I took his phone from him
Speaker 2: and he got really really agitated about that, and you
Speaker 2: broke it, I did.
Speaker 1: I broke head mind you say you would have paid
Speaker 1: for the fat phone.
Speaker 2: It was my phone to break, and I did because
Speaker 2: I was just so distressed, and all he wanted was
Speaker 2: the phone because obviously that was his contact. Once that happened,
Speaker 2: he just completely escalated and was screaming and yelling, making
Speaker 2: threats of to kill us, making threats of violence in
Speaker 2: the home. We called my eldest son home to try
Speaker 2: and have a bit of help from him, perhaps as
Speaker 2: you know, the cool big brother like you know, and
Speaker 2: he was going at him and my son couldn't do
Speaker 2: anything to help us either. And anyway, it was I
Speaker 2: remember the day. It was about forty degrees that day,
Speaker 2: and he left in track sit pants and a jumper
Speaker 2: and he ran up my drive and jumped out gate
Speaker 2: and he just ran. So obviously the police and all
Speaker 2: the rest of it were involved in and about two
Speaker 2: hours later, his school at the time rang me and
Speaker 2: said we've got him here and he's in a really
Speaker 2: bad way. He's really hot, and I said it was
Speaker 2: because he's run from home. But then he took off
Speaker 2: from there as soon as he got word that I knew,
Speaker 2: and then it just started. It just started escalating and
Speaker 2: he was not coming home at all, we did. He
Speaker 2: was just sleeping at friends' houses on couches here, there
Speaker 2: and everywhere. Then when he was spoken to by the police,
Speaker 2: at some point he had reported that his mum had
Speaker 2: snapped his phone in half. So the next call I
Speaker 2: get is from child protection.
Speaker 1: Which did he tell people at school or was it
Speaker 1: the police?
Speaker 2: I think you tell people at school and then obviously
Speaker 2: the police as well, which you know, the police are
Speaker 2: almost a bit like, well, it was your phone anyway.
Speaker 2: But when he told the school and then it got
Speaker 2: reported that to child protection.
Speaker 1: Took it on themselves to report a snapped phone to
Speaker 1: child protection.
Speaker 2: I'm not one hundred percent sure we can.
Speaker 1: Turn up with two black eyes.
Speaker 2: No, never, No, that's right.
Speaker 1: It turned up. Yeah, mum broke the phone that she
Speaker 1: paid for.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's right. So once child Protection were involved, you know,
Speaker 2: because I was quite shocked that they were involved totally
Speaker 2: with it all, and I was kind of a bit
Speaker 2: confused about the whole thing. And that was their explanation
Speaker 2: was because that's seen as a form of abuse, that
Speaker 2: I've broken his phone, even though it was my phone.
Speaker 2: So they got involved, and of course then they wanted
Speaker 2: to investigate me and my husband. So they came around
Speaker 2: and they talked to him about how is it so
Speaker 2: bad living here and all the rest of it, and
Speaker 2: of course he was just like, no, everything's fine. Like
Speaker 2: so we've constantly, unfortunately, have to deal with them, which is,
Speaker 2: you know, for this whole time that they've been involved.
Speaker 2: They've because my oin goal in this is to have
Speaker 2: him home with us at one point, and they have
Speaker 2: promised me the whole time, for twelve months they'll organize
Speaker 2: remunification counseling, all the all the good sounding things have
Speaker 2: been offered to me, but not one thing has ever
Speaker 2: been followed through. Up until this day, I still don't
Speaker 2: have any sort of contact with family counseling relationships Australia,
Speaker 2: nothing from Trump Protection's point of view. But yet they
Speaker 2: take me to court once a month and try and
Speaker 2: get me to sign my rights over to make him
Speaker 2: a Yeah, water the state, the state, which I will
Speaker 2: never do, which I will never ever do.
Speaker 1: Surprise. So really, the state, in all its wisdom, that's
Speaker 1: all it's done for. He is trying. He's basically trying
Speaker 1: monster you.
Speaker 2: Yeah, oh absolutely, the.
Speaker 1: State, like everybody else, finds it very hard to deal
Speaker 1: with the problem of hurting cats. That is, yes, boys
Speaker 1: like this, Yes, too hard. So let's go, let's go around,
Speaker 1: knock on mum store. You know who she is. That's right,
Speaker 1: and we'll.
Speaker 2: Have and the you know, through the whole process. As
Speaker 2: after that time, he just slowly but surely escalated crime
Speaker 2: after crime after slowly. Well no it's not. It wasn't
Speaker 2: really that slow. No, but there was just constant court dates.
Speaker 2: Court dates are coming up. He wasn't showing up to court.
Speaker 1: Now, tell us what life he's leading it this date.
Speaker 1: So by the middle of last year, he's basically CouchSurfing
Speaker 1: around the place. God knows where, squat's anything you don't
Speaker 1: know where, yep. And some relatively unsavory you imagine, yes,
Speaker 1: and with unsavory people, some of whom are selling drugs
Speaker 1: to these kids, and of course the kids in the end,
Speaker 1: they might get some drugs free here or there. Yeah,
Speaker 1: but it's not going to continue. They're going to have
Speaker 1: to pay their way. And how do they do that.
Speaker 2: Well, as far as I know, from what I've read
Speaker 2: between the lines and seen, it's a lot of the
Speaker 2: stealing of the cars or property, anything anything they can
Speaker 2: sell on. So there might be PlayStations or phones, or
Speaker 2: often they'll get credit cards, but the cars the probably
Speaker 2: the biggest problem.
Speaker 1: The biggest problem. So they break into house is to
Speaker 1: get the keys essentially yep, and then they steal the cars.
Speaker 1: And then where do most of these Now? I know
Speaker 1: they like doing them and speeding, but there is an
Speaker 1: end thing for what happens to them.
Speaker 2: They end up they end up leaving them at a
Speaker 2: point where they've organized with someone else, and then that person,
Speaker 2: that next person they'll leave the keys wherever, and that
Speaker 2: next person will then take the car on. So whether
Speaker 2: they get paid very very minimal, if any money at all,
Speaker 2: it's very rarely money they get paid for it, They
Speaker 2: usually get paid in drugs, get paid in drugs. Then
Speaker 2: those people take the car on. So the problem is
Speaker 2: when he gets arrested for a car and he says,
Speaker 2: I'm going to I'm going to plead guilty, and I'm
Speaker 2: going to say it was me. They know it was me.
Speaker 2: All the rest of it is what he says to me.
Speaker 2: When his lawyer gets hold of him, he says, no,
Speaker 2: you need to do no comment because those cars potentially
Speaker 2: could have been stolen weeks before and they're the fourth
Speaker 2: or fifth or sixth person to have that car handed
Speaker 2: onto them. So effectively, if he pleads guilty to that car,
Speaker 2: he could go down for all the previous God knows
Speaker 2: what it's been doing in the past.
Speaker 1: So you say he could be picking.
Speaker 2: Up a stolen yes, yeah, yeah, I didn't realize that. Yes,
Speaker 2: so they rotate them around kind of yeah.
Speaker 1: But so a delivery mechanism.
Speaker 2: Yeah, almost, Yes, he doesn't. I don't feel like he
Speaker 2: often rotates them around too often. He seems to do
Speaker 2: the break He goes for the breakings and the cars.
Speaker 2: But I've been told on several times he you know,
Speaker 2: in one night, he might get six or.
Speaker 1: Seven cars and deliver them here or there.
Speaker 2: Keep them for a while and drive them, drive them around,
Speaker 2: and they drive them around like they're their own cars.
Speaker 1: Yeah, he learned to drive very young.
Speaker 2: He had never driven a car until NI started doing this.
Speaker 2: But it took him a little while, from what I hear,
Speaker 2: to work his way up the rungs a bit. And
Speaker 2: at the start you can't drive, apparently, and then eventually
Speaker 2: you're allowed to be a driver. So he's now a driver.
Speaker 1: So sometimes this is the sort of theft ladder.
Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, so now he can drive them. Often he'll
Speaker 2: have other people steal them and then he'll drive them.
Speaker 2: So it's kind of a way. Yet they have to
Speaker 2: almost work their way up to be a driver.
Speaker 1: Right, and he'll drive them and flop them somewhere. Now
Speaker 1: when we see you know, gangland hits, Gangland arsons, et cetera.
Speaker 1: They're always driving fast cast good cars like the hit
Speaker 1: the other day of the kickboxer abdul Rahim. It was
Speaker 1: a portion mccarna. I think a car probably worth north
Speaker 1: of one hundred thousand dollars. And this is sort of
Speaker 1: standard fair you know, good out. He's good beamers. They're
Speaker 1: very road where they go fast, they go on well,
Speaker 1: and they're the sort of thing that can maybe get
Speaker 1: away from the police or at least have a chance. Yes,
Speaker 1: and then they torch them. But all those cars come
Speaker 1: from somewhere, and I'm here to suggest that they come
Speaker 1: from kids like yours.
Speaker 2: More than likely he only steals luxury cars. He's not
Speaker 2: I know, there's kind of seems to be at the
Speaker 2: moment another sort of group doing commodorees. He'll only steal
Speaker 2: luxury cars and good cars, and he'll openly admit that
Speaker 2: he just loves fast cars. He loves good sounding cars.
Speaker 2: You know, he's quite picky unfortunately in his cars, which
Speaker 2: then brings him to areas where he steals those cars from.
Speaker 2: Obviously well heilled areas. Yeah, good area.
Speaker 1: And to do this, they need to get into the
Speaker 1: houses to get the keys by luche unless he hasn't
Speaker 1: got some else why electronic stuff, So it's just get key,
Speaker 1: get cars.
Speaker 2: Goes into the house monkey. Yes, that's right, as far
Speaker 2: as I'm aware. He goes into the houses. Often there'll
Speaker 2: be a door left open that they will check.
Speaker 1: There's a tip there.
Speaker 2: Lock your doors, He'll y, They'll check for doors. They'll
Speaker 2: often find a door open, they'll go through. They'll pretty
Speaker 2: much just focus on getting the keys. They'll get as
Speaker 2: many keys as they can, and then they kind of
Speaker 2: come out to the street and they just start buzzing
Speaker 2: cars until they find which one matches. It's the same
Speaker 2: with if they go into a gym, they'll often get
Speaker 2: the gym keys. People's lockers.
Speaker 1: Yeah, these lockers are locked.
Speaker 2: No, a lot of the gyms have open lockers, so
Speaker 2: you just pop your drink bottle and your keys on them,
Speaker 2: and then you go and do your workout. So they
Speaker 2: come in. They've got a lot of the group have
Speaker 2: swipers for every gym that they've stolen along the way,
Speaker 2: so they can swipe into a gym, or they sneak
Speaker 2: in behind somebody. They'll take the keys and they'll again
Speaker 2: go out to the car park. They'll buzz the keys
Speaker 2: until they find the right car and off they go.
Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, so he did a feb of that the
Speaker 1: gym thing would be at least avoid confrontation with Yes,
Speaker 1: with householders.
Speaker 2: Yes, he's done quite a lot of gyms. He went
Speaker 2: through a bit of a spat of the aggravated birds
Speaker 2: in houses. Then he went to gym's and he did
Speaker 2: them for quite a while. And when he was reminded
Speaker 2: once after the gym episode, you know, I spoke to
Speaker 2: his lawyer and we both kind of said, not that
Speaker 2: there's a there's not a good outcome to any of this,
Speaker 2: but if anything, we were preferring him do the gyms
Speaker 2: because people weren't yeah, having they weren't having trauma from
Speaker 2: being in their home.
Speaker 1: You're not getting the confrontation, that's right, which is very
Speaker 1: badly one way or the other.
Speaker 2: Yes, that's exactly right.
Speaker 1: Do you think your son went armed?
Speaker 2: He says not, But he says not. There was an
Speaker 2: aggravated berg and car theft of a very expensive car
Speaker 2: in Williamstown area. He drove that car around. That car
Speaker 2: was I'm going to say, from what I remember, about
Speaker 2: one hundred and twenty thousand dollar car. He stole some
Speaker 2: other personal property from that house which was of very
Speaker 2: high value. He drove that car around. That story made
Speaker 2: the news, and when I saw the news, it was
Speaker 2: said that they were armed with machetes, and I lost
Speaker 2: my mind because he's never ever been armed with a
Speaker 2: machete before. But the group he was with did have machetes.
Speaker 2: My son always says to me, I would never hurt anyone, Mum,
Speaker 2: I would never hurt anyone. You know, I would never
Speaker 2: hurt anyone. But I tried to say to him, and
Speaker 2: I say it over and over again. Every person's car,
Speaker 2: you steal, every house you go into, you're hurting someone
Speaker 2: like you're not physically hurting them. And I don't believe
Speaker 2: he would physically hurt anyone, But you're hurting them, you're
Speaker 2: giving them trauma.
Speaker 1: So he once in a week moment stole a little
Speaker 1: cheap car Okaia and he told you about this? How
Speaker 1: did that come about? Yeah? How come he was talking
Speaker 1: to you about it?
Speaker 2: Well, I followed quite a lot of these pages on
Speaker 2: Facebook and things, and you know, you don't think you'll
Speaker 2: ever follow these pages, But now I'm on every stolen
Speaker 2: car's page there is, and when I see them kind
Speaker 2: of local or in areas, I think that maybe he
Speaker 2: might be I kind of follow it up. And then
Speaker 2: I was notified by the police that he was seen
Speaker 2: in this particular car. So then I piece all the
Speaker 2: pieces together of the Facebook posts and him and I
Speaker 2: just ring him now and I'll say where are you?
Speaker 2: What are you doing that it are? And this particular night,
Speaker 2: he was pretty rattled and he wanted to get rid
Speaker 2: of this car because he knew that it was hot
Speaker 2: with the police. The police are onto him. The police
Speaker 2: have been in contact with me and my oldest son
Speaker 2: as well, and seeing if we knew where he was.
Speaker 2: And I said to him, just he was quite frantic
Speaker 2: and obviously under the influence of drugs, and he said,
Speaker 2: I need to get rid of a mom I need
Speaker 2: to get rid of it. And I said, mate, just
Speaker 2: pull it over where you are leave the keys in it,
Speaker 2: close the door and walk away, just walk away. And
Speaker 2: he said, no, I need to not too hot, and
Speaker 2: I need to get rid of it. I'm going to
Speaker 2: torch it. And I said, no, you're not. You're not
Speaker 2: going to touch it. He's never torched a car before,
Speaker 2: and I said, no, you're not. I said, because that
Speaker 2: person's car has a chance of getting their car back
Speaker 2: in one piece if you just walk away. If you
Speaker 2: torch that, you're destroying someone's car. So I try to
Speaker 2: try to help him do that. He eventually that day
Speaker 2: got arrested in that car.
Speaker 1: Anyway, So when did he first get detention and what
Speaker 1: was your feelings about that he got locked up at
Speaker 1: some point? Yeah, he did.
Speaker 2: It was a few months of me kind of I
Speaker 2: was almost begging. I was. I was begging the police
Speaker 2: please please help him, and prosecutors, and he was in
Speaker 2: court and we're fortunately got to.
Speaker 1: You're begging for him to get it get out. You're
Speaker 1: begging for him.
Speaker 2: To go in, yes, because when he's in, I know
Speaker 2: he's safe and I know where he is. So back
Speaker 2: in those early days, it was I wanted him in
Speaker 2: to stop him doing this crime and stop taking people's
Speaker 2: cars and for him to have consequence, you know, because
Speaker 2: there was just no consequences to anything he was doing.
Speaker 2: And finally he did get remanded for a two week stint,
Speaker 2: and I was just devastated. I cried and cried and cried.
Speaker 2: I couldn't believe he was, you know, after all of this,
Speaker 2: that he was actually going to go in. Unfortunately, when
Speaker 2: they go in, half of their friends are in there,
Speaker 2: so it's not really a bad place in their eyes. Yeah,
Speaker 2: it's kind of they catch up with everyone. And the
Speaker 2: magistrate we had the first time he was put in,
Speaker 2: and obviously she knew. I was quite relieved. She said
Speaker 2: to me, Unfortunately, it's one of the worst places for
Speaker 2: them to be, which it is. I agree with that,
Speaker 2: she said. And for every person they meet in Romand
Speaker 2: is potentially another twenty new crimes on the outside when
Speaker 2: they all get back together. Cathy's Yeah, when I went,
Speaker 2: I went to visit him the first time he was
Speaker 2: in there, and in Parkville. Yeah, in Parkville, and I
Speaker 2: was sitting in the waiting area, and you know, I
Speaker 2: had to have ID and all these crazy tests and
Speaker 2: eye scans and all the rest of it done, And
Speaker 2: I was sitting there and I must have looked like
Speaker 2: a deer in headlights because I just couldn't believe what
Speaker 2: my life had come to. And there was another mum
Speaker 2: there and she's just leant over and she said, I
Speaker 2: was it your first time here? And I was kind
Speaker 2: of like yeah, and she was like, oh, it won't
Speaker 2: be your last, and I thought, yes, it will, it
Speaker 2: will be. He's not coming back here. He's going to
Speaker 2: you know, he's going to do the right thing. Now
Speaker 2: where on our he's on his sixth time in there.
Speaker 1: At that time in there? Now, how long is he serving?
Speaker 1: This time? He's on Remand because he rammed a police.
Speaker 2: Com he did he was charged on Monday with four
Speaker 2: counts of aggravated berg, four counts of theft of motor vehicle.
Speaker 2: And I can't ever remember the way they say it,
Speaker 2: but it was endangering emergency service person's car life, right.
Speaker 1: Okay, So they'll take a pretty dim view of that,
Speaker 1: the police will. But what the magistrates said and lawyers say,
Speaker 1: of course, there has some validity that you go inside
Speaker 1: and it's a big petri dish of commonality and turns
Speaker 1: bad kids, naughty kids into baggs, and bad kids become crooks, etc. However,
Speaker 1: the flip side of that is for you is that
Speaker 1: while they're outside doing things, they're risking other people's lives
Speaker 1: and their own lives. Absolutely, and you as a mother
Speaker 1: and as a parent, thinking, well, it's not great in there,
Speaker 1: but he's not doing drugs inside. But I know he
Speaker 1: always comes out looking better than he went in. Yes,
Speaker 1: and he's eating three squares a day, he's doing some
Speaker 1: school work and going into a gym arrangement and doing
Speaker 1: some exercise. He actually comes out a bit better than
Speaker 1: he went in, which is often away with jail. See
Speaker 1: people come out of jail, they're clean and shiny, and
Speaker 1: that's right, well muscled up, and after six months outside
Speaker 1: they're not.
Speaker 2: They're back to it. And that's my you know. While
Speaker 2: I think any parent would want to say they want
Speaker 2: their child in there, but I want him in there
Speaker 2: to stop him endangering or hurting anyone in the community.
Speaker 2: I would never live with myself if someone got hurt
Speaker 2: by him, or also if he ends up killing himself
Speaker 2: in as one of these high speed chasers. So lightly
Speaker 2: he went in. Now that the drug use has escalated
Speaker 2: so much, he went in. He did a stint for
Speaker 2: three months.
Speaker 1: He missed his own birthday. Yes, he missed your birthday.
Speaker 2: His miss Mother's day, Father's Day. And when he went
Speaker 2: in he weighed thirty five kilos, thirty five kilos, thirty
Speaker 2: five Yeah, he was so the suitcases. Yeah, he was
Speaker 2: so unwell looking. And when he came out, he weighed
Speaker 2: I think he ended up weighing about fifty eight sixty
Speaker 2: heroes and kidding. He just was like a different kid.
Speaker 2: He was He looked healthy, he had color in his skin,
Speaker 2: he'd been swimming, he'd been to the gym. He goes
Speaker 2: to school when he's in there, he goes to school
Speaker 2: and attends classes. And so he's then has been out
Speaker 2: for two weeks since coming out from this three months day,
Speaker 2: he's been out two weeks. So he came out at
Speaker 2: about sixty kilos. And when I saw him, I obviously
Speaker 2: haven't seen him much in those two weeks because he's
Speaker 2: out and about. When I saw him at the police
Speaker 2: on Monday, he's back down to about I want to say,
Speaker 2: probably forty maybe forty two kilos.
Speaker 1: When was it the yacht you to take a picture
Speaker 1: and show him that he could see himself.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I walked into the police station on Monday and
Speaker 2: he said. I said to him, oh my, I just
Speaker 2: instantly saw him and he always gives me a heart
Speaker 2: and a kiss and love your mum. And I said, oh, mate,
Speaker 2: look at you. You look terrible. You look awful. And
Speaker 2: he said, oh, can you show me on your phone?
Speaker 2: And I showed him. I always hold my phone because
Speaker 2: I'm never sure if he's going to try and ring
Speaker 2: someone or message someone. And I showed him the camera
Speaker 2: on my phone and he was like oh, and he
Speaker 2: kind of was turning his head back and forth and
Speaker 2: he goes, oh, yeah, I look like a bit of
Speaker 2: a junkie. That's what Ice does. And I was like realized, Yeah,
Speaker 2: he's realizing others do. Yeah. And I've taken photos of
Speaker 2: him each time he's been remanded, and so I can
Speaker 2: keep an eye on kind of track the changes in him.
Speaker 2: And yeah, sometimes he's just skin and bone.
Speaker 1: That's a visual thing that might be useful at some point.
Speaker 1: Look at this, that's right now, you said Williamstown. But
Speaker 1: he's gone a long way in the other direction too.
Speaker 1: He has Do you get a phone call from South Gippsland.
Speaker 2: Yes, I did. I got a call from one Faggy police,
Speaker 2: and when I answered it, he said whatever his name was,
Speaker 2: and from one Faggy police and I said pardon and
Speaker 2: he said, oh sorry. I said no, no, I heard
Speaker 2: what you said, but one faggy police and he said, oh, yeah,
Speaker 2: we've got a phone here we believe might be your son's.
Speaker 2: Do you know what the picture it might be? And
Speaker 2: I told him what the picture was and he said, oh,
Speaker 2: that's the phone we have. He's been involved in an
Speaker 2: aggravated burg and theftomotor vehicle down here. I just couldn't
Speaker 2: believe it. I was just like what and that particular
Speaker 2: one he when I had contacted him a couple of
Speaker 2: days later, my son he had told me about he
Speaker 2: sore wrist and I said, what happened to your wrist?
Speaker 1: You know?
Speaker 2: He was messaging me about it. He had jumped off
Speaker 2: the second like the double story little veranda out the
Speaker 2: front of a double story house onto the ground because
Speaker 2: the people in the home woke up to find them
Speaker 2: in the house. So he jumped, dropped his phone and
Speaker 2: also left his shoes behind because they'd fallen off on
Speaker 2: the jump. So the police also had all of those
Speaker 2: belongings which tied him to it.
Speaker 1: Tied him to it, so he's not a master criminal.
Speaker 2: No, no, I say to him often, you're the dumbest criminal.
Speaker 1: I know.
Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 1: And what do you think about that? Not thinking?
Speaker 2: Not?
Speaker 1: You think?
Speaker 2: No, he does. He's not old enough to think. He's
Speaker 2: too he's too young. And I constantly try. You know,
Speaker 2: it's like talking to a brick wall, though, and sometimes
Speaker 2: I've had to change my approach of how I talk
Speaker 2: to him about things. And you know, I say to him,
Speaker 2: I know you're not thinking about now, but I'm thinking
Speaker 2: about when you're twenty five and twenty six and an
Speaker 2: adult and you're doing all of these things now, but
Speaker 2: it's just setting you up for jobs and everything.
Speaker 1: Like he went well for a start. When he wants
Speaker 1: to get a head ticket one day and go to America,
Speaker 1: that's right. I won't be able to go, that's right.
Speaker 2: He's not good to leave the state now, that'll be that.
Speaker 1: Yeah. You know, I have a relative who did silly
Speaker 1: stuff when he was very young and he's now very
Speaker 1: middle aged and respectable. Yeah, but can he go with
Speaker 1: his American wife to America? He can't know because of
Speaker 1: one stupid thing.
Speaker 2: That's right, and they just don't think of that now
Speaker 2: five or something, And you know, I feel like I'm
Speaker 2: I'm constantly trying to get my story heard, and I'm
Speaker 2: trying to talk to people, and I speak to anyone
Speaker 2: that will listen. I don't think there's one person of
Speaker 2: Parliament that hasn't got an email from me about everything.
Speaker 2: And I just because I'm just one, I'm just one
Speaker 2: of the parents of these kids. There are so many
Speaker 2: kids doing this.
Speaker 1: Looking for probably hundreds of mothers and hundreds.
Speaker 2: Because there's so many that this is happening too. And sadly,
Speaker 2: during this whole journey, I have met two mums in
Speaker 2: particular that are so so similar to me, and they
Speaker 2: just don't know what to do anymore, and their kids
Speaker 2: are doing the same thing, and we're just at a loss.
Speaker 2: You know, there are lots of parents out there that
Speaker 2: enable a lot of this behavior and allow a lot
Speaker 2: of it. But the parents that don't want it to
Speaker 2: happen and are trying to stop it, there's just.
Speaker 1: Help sweat up in it. Yeah, yeah, I mean, and
Speaker 1: it's very hard to make generalizations. Yes, yeah, you and
Speaker 1: your husband and model citizens, I presume the rest of
Speaker 1: the family. Yes, yeah, sort of rack bag kid. Among
Speaker 1: his friends, there are other kids like himself. Yes, yes,
Speaker 1: you've told me about one that's right, whose parents you
Speaker 1: think are much like yourself. Yes, and they're pulling their
Speaker 1: hair out. Where do we go?
Speaker 3: Right?
Speaker 1: What's going on?
Speaker 2: And just don't know what to do?
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 1: So it's not as if you know, they're all being
Speaker 1: produced by they're not being abused and I brought up
Speaker 1: in very poor dire circumstances and all the rest of it. Yes,
Speaker 1: that's not true of all.
Speaker 2: Of them, that's right. And my son's aware of that too.
Speaker 2: He knows, he knows the good families and the bad families.
Speaker 2: And I think I said to you yesterday, I asked
Speaker 2: him about one of his friends, and I said, you know,
Speaker 2: are his parents? Are his parents good people? And it
Speaker 2: was really nice to hear my son say to me, yeah, Mom,
Speaker 2: his parents are just like you and dad. They're really
Speaker 2: good people. That's when I reached out to this particular
Speaker 2: family and I met with her and she was she
Speaker 2: was just like me, And it was just like listening
Speaker 2: to my own story. And it's kind of strangely weird
Speaker 2: that you take a bit of comfort in knowing that
Speaker 2: there's another family or too in particular that I know
Speaker 2: of that are going through the same thing.
Speaker 1: Ye're not a freak.
Speaker 2: Yeah, we're not just this random kid that's gone off
Speaker 2: the rails.
Speaker 1: No, it's a shed thing to some extent. You're in
Speaker 1: here today talking to maybe one hundred thousand people something
Speaker 1: like that, and you're telling them what it's really like
Speaker 1: from where you sit stand. You've got a message for them,
Speaker 1: or for the politicians, for these senior police. Yeah, what
Speaker 1: are your thoughts?
Speaker 2: Like I've always said with anyone I talked to, the
Speaker 2: police are just amazing. They're so supportive of me. They
Speaker 2: helped me incredibly, and we're engaged now with a crime
Speaker 2: reduction team and the two people that run that are
Speaker 2: just always checking in on me. And it might even
Speaker 2: just be checking on me. It's not anything to do
Speaker 2: with him. It's just checking in if I'm okay.
Speaker 1: That's good.
Speaker 2: And I've got some local members of parliament that helped
Speaker 2: me out and keep in contact and talk to me.
Speaker 2: And I met with Peter Dutton two weeks ago and
Speaker 2: told him the story, and I just you know, it's
Speaker 2: easy to sit and watch the news, and I was
Speaker 2: watching the news and I was seeing these kids, and
Speaker 2: I'm like, where are their parents? They're just bloody braw,
Speaker 2: you know, I said. But now I'm living this, it's
Speaker 2: so easy to say, where are the parents? Because we
Speaker 2: were those parents that we made sure he was safe
Speaker 2: at home. He was you know, he had a good life,
Speaker 2: he had a great upbringing. But where those parents that
Speaker 2: we don't know now where he is and we've got
Speaker 2: no control over it. And it's just I just want
Speaker 2: to try and make it seem that it's not always.
Speaker 2: They're not always coming from neglectful for homes or neglectful
Speaker 2: families or bad parenting. Sometimes they're really good kids. And
Speaker 2: deep down he is a good kid. And I hope
Speaker 2: and I pray daily that he will turn around and
Speaker 2: he will come back. And all of my friends and
Speaker 2: family say he'll come back, don't worry, you know, you've
Speaker 2: got this. He'll come back. But it's hard to see
Speaker 2: that at the time. It's hard to see anywhere past.
Speaker 2: You know, I'm already now stressing about the next two weeks,
Speaker 2: like what's going to happen in two weeks time?
Speaker 1: Yes, first of all, he has to survive.
Speaker 2: Yes that's right. Then, Yes, that's it exactly and I
Speaker 2: just feel like every time he's released from from a
Speaker 2: prison stay, there's nothing set up for him. Like Crime
Speaker 2: Reduction Team was saying to me yesterday when I was
Speaker 2: talking to them, almost he's being set up for failure
Speaker 2: because there's not enough in place for when he comes out.
Speaker 2: If they don't bail him on bail conditions, which he
Speaker 2: doesn't abide by anyway, if there's nothing in place for him,
Speaker 2: he just goes back to doing what he's doing. So
Speaker 2: I really need things in place for him when he's released,
Speaker 2: whether that be a rehabilitation program he's admitted now to
Speaker 2: having an addiction to ice, a rehabilitation program or something
Speaker 2: that he has to go to every single day and
Speaker 2: check in and say here I am, and do the test,
Speaker 2: do a test, et something, you know something.
Speaker 1: You've got to stick to it, yim.
Speaker 2: Because that's the problem. There's no consequences for these kids.
Speaker 2: You see it on the news every night, six arrested,
Speaker 2: but five arrested already on bail released.
Speaker 1: You know, it's just in your view, would be better
Speaker 1: to use facilities and lock them up, even though it's
Speaker 1: an imperfect solution. Yes, it's better than just running them
Speaker 1: back onto the stop.
Speaker 2: Absolutely, I would prefer him going into some sort of
Speaker 2: program where he was you know, there's some places I
Speaker 2: think in New South Wales. I haven't been out to
Speaker 2: find one in Melbourne, but kind of like a boot camp,
Speaker 2: you know, where they've got to get up and they've
Speaker 2: got to work. But there's nothing here that is available
Speaker 2: for him to do that. And if I considered the
Speaker 2: New South Wales one, but I have to have a
Speaker 2: residence there to be able to happen. There.
Speaker 1: There's an opening for someone.
Speaker 2: There is, that's right. Absolutely, the I think it's such
Speaker 2: a long prison is sitting empty.
Speaker 1: There is a prison down there's an opening for sort
Speaker 1: of some very tough ex military guys, yes, running.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and just maybe to have more of that rehabilitation
Speaker 2: side of things. Yeah, that's what I'm hoping for.
Speaker 1: Well, that is so kind of you to share that.
Speaker 1: What is a very grievous story from you to tell you,
Speaker 1: being very frank, very fair and very friendly, you're not
Speaker 1: really blaming anyone except no in a sense. In a
Speaker 1: sense you're blaming your son and others around him.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: But as you said, if kids of their own age
Speaker 1: were put together so they're not in with older, more
Speaker 1: hardened people that that would be preferable, had them off
Speaker 1: the street, like a sort of a tough boarding school
Speaker 1: with a lock on the door.
Speaker 2: Yes, that's right, exactly, something like that, that we're just
Speaker 2: and just having some services available to them in there.
Speaker 2: Often he'll sit there if there's no school, or if
Speaker 2: he goes in on at school holidays there's no school,
Speaker 2: so he often just spends his day playing a PlayStation
Speaker 2: or watching TV, you know, instead of I would prefer
Speaker 2: him having maybe some mental health help, some psychology, maybe
Speaker 2: some counseling things like that, some drug and alcohol rehabilitation.
Speaker 2: But a lot of that's not offered in there at
Speaker 2: the moment, and they're quite understaffed as well, apparently, so
Speaker 2: it's hard for them, which I get.
Speaker 1: So yeah, tricky, yeah it is. But you don't see
Speaker 1: him as somebody who's got a mental illness. No, really,
Speaker 1: he does silly things and self destructive things, but you
Speaker 1: see him as someone who's addicted not only to the
Speaker 1: drugs he takes, but to the adrenaline.
Speaker 2: Yes, he's addicted to crime, I think, yes, Yeah, he's
Speaker 2: addicted to the thrill and he so.
Speaker 1: If he were parachuting or you know, doing wild extreme sports. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that might fill the gap.
Speaker 2: Yes, I said to him last time he got out,
Speaker 2: I said, do you want to go? What do you
Speaker 2: want to do? Mate? Like, I'll take you somewhere. Do
Speaker 2: you want to go in a I said, I'll take
Speaker 2: you to Phillip Parlam. We'll raced around the with the
Speaker 2: those fast cardsitars or whatever. He was like, oh no,
Speaker 2: because I like driving. And I was like, okay, well,
Speaker 2: what if I said, jump out of a plane every day?
Speaker 2: I'll pay for you to jump out of a plane
Speaker 2: every single day. And so we ended up deciding we'd
Speaker 2: go to Gunby World because there was roller coasters and
Speaker 2: things like that, and I thought, great, I'll chuck him
Speaker 2: on a roller coaster all day. And we had planned
Speaker 2: it all and I was going to hate one of
Speaker 2: his friends with him. And when I got there, when
Speaker 2: I got to the day, I couldn't find where he was.
Speaker 2: He was out and about, more than likely in a
Speaker 2: stolen car, and so I didn't we didn't get to
Speaker 2: take him there, right, Yeah.
Speaker 1: You can try, that's right, yep. And you're still trying.
Speaker 2: Still trying, and I'll have to give up.
Speaker 1: Well well done you. And he's so kind of you
Speaker 1: to come and talk to us. Thank you, and we
Speaker 1: hope that he sends happily and that it ends happily
Speaker 1: for a lot of other people. Yes, and also that
Speaker 1: it draws attention to what is a growing problem everybody.
Speaker 1: I was talking to my own wife an hour and
Speaker 1: a half ago, and guess what is when a home
Speaker 1: invasion in X Street?
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's right.
Speaker 1: It's everywhere a few meters from where we live.
Speaker 2: Every day.
Speaker 1: You hear about it in every postcard.
Speaker 2: And they do it in broad daylight now too sometimes,
Speaker 2: so it's terrifying.
Speaker 1: It is. Thank you so much, Thank you for having me,
Speaker 1: Thanks for listening.
Speaker 3: Life and Crimes is a Sunday Herald Sun production for
Speaker 3: true crime Australia. Our producer is Johnty Burton. For my columns,
Speaker 3: features and more, go to Heraldsun dot com dot Au,
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