WEBVTT - BONUS: Justice for Leisl Smith: Jerildene Cane 0:00:01.880 --> 0:00:04.880 The public has had a long held fascination with detectives. 0:00:05.360 --> 0:00:08.039 Detective sy aside of life, the average person is never 0:00:08.119 --> 0:00:11.119 exposed her I spent thirty four years as a cop. 0:00:11.560 --> 0:00:14.040 For twenty five of those years I was catching killers. 0:00:14.440 --> 0:00:16.200 That's what I did for a living. I was a 0:00:16.200 --> 0:00:20.560 homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead, 0:00:20.600 --> 0:00:23.120 I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated. 0:00:23.840 --> 0:00:26.400 The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories 0:00:26.440 --> 0:00:28.760 from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw 0:00:28.800 --> 0:00:31.440 and honest, just like the people I talk to. Some 0:00:31.600 --> 0:00:34.640 of the content and language might be confronting. That's because 0:00:34.640 --> 0:00:37.640 no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged. 0:00:38.159 --> 0:00:40.400 Join me now as I take you into this world. 0:00:46.520 --> 0:00:49.800 Welcome to a bonus follow up episode of I Catch Killers. 0:00:50.560 --> 0:00:54.960 Back in twenty twenty three, our guest Geraldine Kane reached 0:00:55.000 --> 0:00:57.840 out to me to discuss the murder investigation of a sister, 0:00:58.200 --> 0:01:02.320 Liesel Smith. Lisel Smith was just twenty three years old 0:01:02.440 --> 0:01:04.759 when she vanished from the central coast of New South 0:01:04.760 --> 0:01:08.600 Wales in twenty twelve. The police believed that she had 0:01:08.640 --> 0:01:12.720 been murdered and that they knew who was responsible police 0:01:12.760 --> 0:01:15.440 were in the process of getting answers for Liesl's family. 0:01:16.360 --> 0:01:19.840 They had charged her partner, James Scott Church, with a murder, 0:01:20.080 --> 0:01:22.920 and after a lengthy judge only trill that sat for 0:01:23.000 --> 0:01:27.679 over sixty eight days, Justice Elizabeth Fulton indicated she would 0:01:27.680 --> 0:01:30.919 hand down her verdict on the eighth of July twenty 0:01:31.040 --> 0:01:34.520 twenty two. Geraldine and the family had waited ten years 0:01:34.520 --> 0:01:37.480 for this moment, but the day they had been waiting 0:01:37.520 --> 0:01:41.319 for was taken away from them when James Church took 0:01:41.319 --> 0:01:43.960 his own life the day before the verdict was due 0:01:43.959 --> 0:01:47.640 to be handed down. Geraldine was informed, due to this 0:01:47.840 --> 0:01:51.080 the rigid legal system that seems to lack any compassion, 0:01:51.480 --> 0:01:54.240 that the verdict could not be made available to the public. 0:01:55.120 --> 0:01:57.880 That just added to the trauma of the family. I 0:01:57.920 --> 0:02:00.800 always believed that if the law was broken or failed 0:02:00.800 --> 0:02:03.280 the people is there to serve, it should be changed. 0:02:04.240 --> 0:02:07.160 After meeting with Geraldine, I suggested that the simplest way 0:02:07.240 --> 0:02:09.960 the hurdle could be overcome was for the matter to 0:02:10.000 --> 0:02:12.640 be referred to the coroner and the coroner could deliver 0:02:12.680 --> 0:02:16.360 a finding. This was without precedent, but to me it 0:02:16.440 --> 0:02:19.360 seemed to be a simple fix on the back of 0:02:19.400 --> 0:02:23.320 those discussions, Geraldine appeared on I Catch Killers and lobbied 0:02:23.360 --> 0:02:26.000 in the media and with the law makers to see 0:02:26.000 --> 0:02:28.959 if this could be achieved. It makes me very happy 0:02:28.960 --> 0:02:32.120 to announce that Geraldine's efforts were rewarded. And on the 0:02:32.120 --> 0:02:36.080 twenty ninth of September this year, Deputy State Coroner Harriet 0:02:36.120 --> 0:02:39.400 Graham found that Liesel Smith was killed by a partner, 0:02:39.600 --> 0:02:43.400 James Scott Church. So I thought they'd get Geraldine back 0:02:43.440 --> 0:02:47.120 on the podcast to discuss the process and the impact 0:02:47.160 --> 0:02:51.720 that it's had on her. Geraldine Kane, Welcome back to 0:02:51.760 --> 0:02:52.560 I Catch Killers. 0:02:53.480 --> 0:02:54.800 Thanks Gary, Thanksgarving me. 0:02:55.520 --> 0:02:57.280 Well, it's good to have you back here. 0:02:57.320 --> 0:03:01.040 But the circumstances that we'd probably we all be happier 0:03:01.080 --> 0:03:05.079 if I wasn't speaking to you, But there's been Yeah, 0:03:05.440 --> 0:03:07.840 it is what it is, isn't it. There's been some 0:03:08.200 --> 0:03:12.919 developments on Lisel's case. Now I've explained to the audience 0:03:13.240 --> 0:03:17.640 about the background to the situation, and can you just 0:03:17.680 --> 0:03:20.680 tell us in your words what's occurred since we last 0:03:20.880 --> 0:03:22.680 had you on the podcast and spoke to you at 0:03:22.680 --> 0:03:24.760 the coroner's court I think was the last time I 0:03:24.760 --> 0:03:25.080 saw you. 0:03:26.000 --> 0:03:31.600 Yeah, So Coroner's finished and she went to basically think 0:03:31.639 --> 0:03:34.000 over what had been presented to her, and she was 0:03:34.040 --> 0:03:37.960 also taking some leave that had been pre planned a 0:03:38.040 --> 0:03:42.360 while before, and then gave us a date that it 0:03:42.480 --> 0:03:44.200 was on the date of my birthday. Actually that she 0:03:44.280 --> 0:03:52.880 presented her findings, and basically she found that Jim Church 0:03:53.000 --> 0:03:56.920 had killed Lisel, he was responsible for her death, and 0:03:57.600 --> 0:04:03.880 that if Lisel's remains were ever found that she would 0:04:03.880 --> 0:04:06.320 reopen the case because the manner of death could not 0:04:06.360 --> 0:04:11.040 be ascertained, obviously, but she accepted the evidence that had 0:04:11.040 --> 0:04:16.680 been put before her, and she also mentioned to the 0:04:16.680 --> 0:04:19.679 ag there'd been a review I think it was twenty 0:04:19.720 --> 0:04:22.599 twenty three, and a certain number of recommendations have not 0:04:22.640 --> 0:04:26.039 been implemented, one of which was recommendation thirty four. My 0:04:26.200 --> 0:04:29.719 understanding is that the coroner should not have to name 0:04:29.760 --> 0:04:34.480 a person as having done an action that has caused 0:04:34.480 --> 0:04:35.200 the death of another. 0:04:35.360 --> 0:04:36.159 I might be wrong. 0:04:37.040 --> 0:04:40.440 It's all very much legal jargon and everything. But she 0:04:40.520 --> 0:04:43.800 was not impressive. None of the recommendations have been implemented 0:04:44.320 --> 0:04:49.000 from that review, and she also referred basically not our case, 0:04:49.040 --> 0:04:53.960 but more the circumstances in terms of the issue of abatement, 0:04:54.040 --> 0:04:56.640 which has been the biggest hurdle in terms of not 0:04:56.640 --> 0:05:00.560 getting a verdict, has asked the AG to refer that 0:05:00.680 --> 0:05:03.159 to the new South Wales Legal Commission four of you 0:05:03.920 --> 0:05:06.960 to see whether there can be any sort of changes 0:05:07.000 --> 0:05:11.520 to the law on specific circumstances such as what happened 0:05:11.520 --> 0:05:13.840 with Lisal, which is what she can do. 0:05:14.520 --> 0:05:17.960 Yeah, I've been through the findings of the coroner and 0:05:17.960 --> 0:05:21.440 there's some significant things in there, and from a personal 0:05:21.520 --> 0:05:24.720 point of view for yourself and your family, calling that 0:05:24.800 --> 0:05:27.880 limbo situation of sitting through I think it was over 0:05:28.040 --> 0:05:31.000 or sixty eight days hearing of a trial for the 0:05:31.040 --> 0:05:35.040 person that was charged with murdering Lisel and then have 0:05:35.200 --> 0:05:38.640 that person kill themselves on the virtual day that the 0:05:38.839 --> 0:05:41.320 judge only it was a judge only trial was going 0:05:41.400 --> 0:05:44.599 to hand down the verdict. How distressing that would have 0:05:44.640 --> 0:05:47.560 been for the family because you battled. It was a 0:05:47.600 --> 0:05:50.000 ten year battle to get it to that point basically, 0:05:50.520 --> 0:05:54.360 and then you're left in limbo with no one being 0:05:54.400 --> 0:05:56.320 accountable for what's happened to your sister. 0:05:57.160 --> 0:05:59.440 Yeah, it was interesting because the detectives involved in the 0:05:59.440 --> 0:06:02.400 coastal had different points of view as well, but the 0:06:02.440 --> 0:06:06.120 current actually found that quite helpful. She said, because it 0:06:06.200 --> 0:06:11.719 shows the amount of consideration that or the variance of 0:06:11.839 --> 0:06:16.040 perspectives that is raised with term of abatement and how 0:06:16.080 --> 0:06:20.480 that would apply. What I found really interesting was that 0:06:20.640 --> 0:06:26.000 not one family member from the defendant, none of his friends, 0:06:26.480 --> 0:06:29.080 nobody turned up to defend him or to say no, 0:06:29.360 --> 0:06:31.760 the evidence you've presented his role and they had the 0:06:31.800 --> 0:06:32.720 opportunity to do so. 0:06:32.920 --> 0:06:37.640 A nata kind you know, if everyone's saying, oh, he didn't. 0:06:37.320 --> 0:06:40.279 Do it, where were they? 0:06:40.400 --> 0:06:44.200 And also on the thing and when we first met, 0:06:44.240 --> 0:06:46.839 and this was the thing that I could tell was 0:06:46.839 --> 0:06:49.520 your frustration, but that it was mine having a bit 0:06:49.520 --> 0:06:52.479 more of an understanding about the legal system and about 0:06:52.640 --> 0:06:56.400 what it takes to convict someone of murder or at 0:06:56.480 --> 0:07:00.000 least have a murder trial. All the evidence had been presented, 0:07:00.520 --> 0:07:05.720 any defense opportunity that was available to him, it could 0:07:05.720 --> 0:07:08.760 have been taken during the trial, if I could understand, 0:07:08.800 --> 0:07:12.400 it would be a completely different situation if he had 0:07:12.480 --> 0:07:16.320 no opportunity to defend himself. But the system was set 0:07:16.400 --> 0:07:18.280 up to allow him to defend himself. 0:07:18.880 --> 0:07:23.080 Yeah, he had every availability to participate how he wanted to. 0:07:23.560 --> 0:07:26.200 And then when we talk the abatement, I think we're 0:07:26.200 --> 0:07:29.680 talking in legal terminology, we're talking about whether a decision 0:07:30.080 --> 0:07:32.440 can be made in the absence of the accused person 0:07:32.680 --> 0:07:34.400 when the person's passed away. 0:07:35.120 --> 0:07:37.920 So that's my understanding. 0:07:38.080 --> 0:07:40.600 Yeah, and I think the coroner will touch on a 0:07:40.640 --> 0:07:43.960 little bit later in the recommendations that the coroner has made. 0:07:43.960 --> 0:07:48.000 But looking for legislation to be changed because clearly a 0:07:48.120 --> 0:07:50.680 legal system should be there to serve the people that 0:07:50.840 --> 0:07:54.720 represents and if justice is not done because of some 0:07:54.960 --> 0:07:59.720 antiquated legal principle, maybe that's when changes should be done. 0:08:00.080 --> 0:08:02.920 I'm look, I'm happy for you, and happy is a 0:08:02.960 --> 0:08:05.880 funny word put when you're talking about the murder of 0:08:05.920 --> 0:08:09.280 your sister, But I'm happy at least someone has been 0:08:09.320 --> 0:08:13.160 identified as been responsible for the murder of Lisel. 0:08:13.960 --> 0:08:19.920 I think it just confirmed, especially after listening to all 0:08:19.960 --> 0:08:23.280 the relevant evidence that was presented in coroners, because obviously 0:08:23.320 --> 0:08:28.080 there's different ways that the courts are run, criminal versus coroners. 0:08:28.880 --> 0:08:33.040 It just really cemented what I've come to. The conclusion 0:08:33.040 --> 0:08:35.440 I come to during the criminal court was that you know, 0:08:36.280 --> 0:08:38.920 he did it, you know, and I have to commend 0:08:39.040 --> 0:08:43.720 the women that were his intimate partners that had been abused, 0:08:44.320 --> 0:08:50.160 you know, quite extensively by Church, who submitted after David's 0:08:50.160 --> 0:08:52.480 in support of the criminal child. 0:08:52.640 --> 0:08:56.080 It was never presented basically because. 0:08:56.000 --> 0:08:59.400 The DPP at the time felt that they had enough evidence, 0:08:59.400 --> 0:09:02.360 which is fine, but because it was relevant in criminal 0:09:02.400 --> 0:09:05.240 court as sorry in Coronis court, they looked at that 0:09:06.200 --> 0:09:10.640 he was still perpetrating domestic violence, or rather violence against women, 0:09:10.640 --> 0:09:14.320 because there's nothing domestic against about it against the partner 0:09:14.320 --> 0:09:17.839 that he had when he died. So you know, I 0:09:17.960 --> 0:09:20.680 just I take my hat off to these women that, 0:09:20.800 --> 0:09:24.760 even under fear and you know, fear of their life 0:09:24.840 --> 0:09:28.319 from him and the abuseit he perpetrated against them, stepped 0:09:28.400 --> 0:09:31.040 up and provided evidence to show that he had a. 0:09:31.040 --> 0:09:31.880 History of it. 0:09:31.960 --> 0:09:34.800 He certainly had motive, and he had an extensive history 0:09:34.840 --> 0:09:38.960 of violence against women and animals as well, which you know, 0:09:39.080 --> 0:09:43.840 a huge red flags. So look, the thing for me 0:09:44.160 --> 0:09:46.640 is that he can't appeal it. He can't say you 0:09:46.679 --> 0:09:52.559 didn't do it. It confirms what majority of us believed, even 0:09:52.600 --> 0:09:55.360 though we don't have a verdict. And I really hope 0:09:55.360 --> 0:09:58.200 that the age takes on board what the Coron has 0:09:58.240 --> 0:10:02.520 said and refers, you know, refers to as she's recommended, 0:10:02.679 --> 0:10:08.200 and you know, stops another family from having to do this. 0:10:08.400 --> 0:10:11.079 It's just, you know, it's not that it's not fair, 0:10:11.760 --> 0:10:15.959 but there was no need for it. I don't think, 0:10:16.120 --> 0:10:19.680 And I think if it can be prevented in the future, 0:10:19.800 --> 0:10:23.000 as I said, you know, specifics with legislation and stuff, 0:10:23.040 --> 0:10:25.440 then it should be you know, people shouldn't be forced 0:10:25.440 --> 0:10:27.520 to go through this just because, as you said, there's 0:10:27.559 --> 0:10:31.560 an antiquate, hated yeah law or reasoning that you know, 0:10:31.679 --> 0:10:33.320 that's because it's always been the way. 0:10:33.480 --> 0:10:36.720 Well that's not good enough never, you know, nor should 0:10:36.720 --> 0:10:36.920 it be. 0:10:37.240 --> 0:10:40.560 And that was the frustration that was coming across with 0:10:40.640 --> 0:10:43.440 you when you're explaining the situation to me when we 0:10:43.480 --> 0:10:47.160 first met that you've constantly been told, well, this is 0:10:47.200 --> 0:10:50.839 what we do. But the situation that presented yourself in 0:10:51.160 --> 0:10:54.480 this particular case is a unique set of circumstances. It's 0:10:54.520 --> 0:10:58.000 not going to happen very often, but it potentially could happen. 0:10:58.400 --> 0:11:00.880 And by changing the legisla that it's not going to 0:11:00.920 --> 0:11:03.040 open the floodgates. The world's not going to change. It 0:11:03.080 --> 0:11:06.199 will just stop families like your family going through what 0:11:06.880 --> 0:11:10.280 you've gone through before. And that's interesting when all the 0:11:10.320 --> 0:11:13.640 evidence is presented at a coroner's inquest because it's an 0:11:13.640 --> 0:11:17.120 inquisitorial so the rules of evidence differ from the adversarial 0:11:17.160 --> 0:11:20.440 system that the criminal core is. But it just adds 0:11:20.440 --> 0:11:23.440 to the weight of evidence against him. 0:11:23.880 --> 0:11:26.560 I think it certainly supported the case that the DPP had. 0:11:26.679 --> 0:11:28.920 It showed that, you know, as I said, there was 0:11:29.040 --> 0:11:31.440 history and everything. I think the other thing in getting 0:11:31.480 --> 0:11:34.080 the law change is that it acts as at a turrent. 0:11:34.880 --> 0:11:40.680 If people that are considering doing the same thing know that, well, 0:11:40.679 --> 0:11:43.000 you can do that, but this is what's going to 0:11:43.000 --> 0:11:48.680 happen regardless. Then you can either take the chance what's 0:11:49.440 --> 0:11:52.360 what gets said an appeal and you know, try and 0:11:52.400 --> 0:11:55.920 do it that way, or you just get named and 0:11:55.960 --> 0:11:58.920 that's it and you don't have any chance of running 0:11:58.920 --> 0:12:02.200 an appeal. Then yeah, I honestly think it will, you know, 0:12:02.800 --> 0:12:04.920 act as a terrent for people that are considering that 0:12:05.080 --> 0:12:06.560 path to try and get out of. 0:12:06.480 --> 0:12:10.559 Having to do time. That's just my personal opinion whether 0:12:10.600 --> 0:12:11.440 that's the case or not. 0:12:11.800 --> 0:12:15.840 I hadn't that's an interesting perspective. I hadn't even considered that. 0:12:15.920 --> 0:12:18.480 I was thinking more of the anks that would cause 0:12:18.679 --> 0:12:22.280 the families of loved ones. But yes, because it is 0:12:22.320 --> 0:12:24.880 a way that people could take out to protect their 0:12:24.880 --> 0:12:29.520 reputation knowing the inevitables coming, and well, if I'm no 0:12:29.559 --> 0:12:33.400 longer here my reputation there'll still be an element of doubt. 0:12:33.520 --> 0:12:36.280 So that's a very valid point, a very valid point, 0:12:36.280 --> 0:12:39.560 and I think it's something that should should be considered. 0:12:40.320 --> 0:12:42.400 I think the two acting is a too terrent in 0:12:42.440 --> 0:12:44.800 preventing anks for the family go hand in hand. 0:12:45.200 --> 0:12:45.560 You know. 0:12:47.640 --> 0:12:50.960 There's innocent until presumed guilty, but at the same time 0:12:51.600 --> 0:12:54.600 you know you shouldn't. That shouldn't be in the pursuit 0:12:54.640 --> 0:12:57.120 of not causing a victim's family more angst than. 0:12:57.080 --> 0:12:59.920 Needed, And it could be a case of a drag 0:13:00.280 --> 0:13:04.200 a court matter out until someone passes by natural causes 0:13:04.800 --> 0:13:07.720 rather than suicide. So it shows that there's no benefits 0:13:07.760 --> 0:13:11.400 in delaying matters as well. So no, I think it's 0:13:12.040 --> 0:13:15.840 a significant result that you've managed to get. Is it 0:13:15.880 --> 0:13:18.440 a double edged sword in a way because the person 0:13:18.520 --> 0:13:22.079 hasn't been held accountable why he's still on this earth 0:13:22.559 --> 0:13:27.240 and you don't know the full details. Taught me through 0:13:27.240 --> 0:13:30.000 it from a personal point of view, it's. 0:13:29.880 --> 0:13:33.320 Been something that I've I've had to work out what 0:13:33.360 --> 0:13:37.000 I'm happy with, would I've liked him to be held 0:13:37.000 --> 0:13:39.640 accountable and be doing jail time, and you know, his 0:13:40.840 --> 0:13:45.840 to him, his reputation in tatters. Yeah, you know, but 0:13:45.920 --> 0:13:48.319 at the end of the day, as I said before, 0:13:48.320 --> 0:13:51.320 it doesn't bring it back. It doesn't change what he did. 0:13:51.559 --> 0:13:55.880 It doesn't mitigate the abuse that she went through, or 0:13:56.720 --> 0:14:00.520 you know, the steps that he took off towards to 0:14:00.520 --> 0:14:03.439 try and cover what he did. At the end of 0:14:03.480 --> 0:14:06.840 the day, it doesn't change anything. Lisel's not here. I 0:14:06.880 --> 0:14:09.200 can't do anything about that. Him being alive or not 0:14:09.360 --> 0:14:14.800 doesn't change that. I guess the biggest thing that I 0:14:14.800 --> 0:14:19.720 have felt was the best for me was that the 0:14:19.800 --> 0:14:24.360 Corona has named him as contributing or causing Liesl's death, 0:14:24.440 --> 0:14:28.120 rather and the fact that he can't do anything about it. 0:14:28.680 --> 0:14:31.320 He's been named as causing the death of my sister. 0:14:31.440 --> 0:14:33.960 He can't appeal it, His family can't do anything. They 0:14:34.000 --> 0:14:37.560 certainly weren't interested in defending his reputation or defending his 0:14:37.680 --> 0:14:41.520 character in coronial court. And you know that is forever 0:14:41.600 --> 0:14:44.800 on the record now, and I think in the scheme 0:14:44.840 --> 0:14:48.440 of things and the context of what's gone on, that 0:14:48.600 --> 0:14:52.320 was probably the best outcome that we were going to 0:14:52.440 --> 0:14:56.680 get and as I said, something you know said mentioned 0:14:56.680 --> 0:14:58.200 before something was better than nothing. 0:14:58.760 --> 0:15:01.480 That's something, as you said, is quite substantial. You know. 0:15:01.840 --> 0:15:04.000 It's it's not. 0:15:03.920 --> 0:15:09.480 Necessarily set a precedent, but it's shown that what happened 0:15:09.560 --> 0:15:13.840 was not okay. And so it provides, I guess, the 0:15:13.880 --> 0:15:17.120 founding blocks of things to be built upon for that. 0:15:17.640 --> 0:15:22.360 And if that's what's come of what's occurred, I'm okay 0:15:22.400 --> 0:15:22.680 with that. 0:15:22.920 --> 0:15:24.480 Yeah, I understand. 0:15:24.280 --> 0:15:26.160 As I said, it just doesn't change anything. 0:15:27.840 --> 0:15:31.040 One thing that you missed out on the opportunity in 0:15:31.040 --> 0:15:34.720 a murder troll is a victim's impact statement that you 0:15:34.760 --> 0:15:38.360 get up and you explain to the court what the 0:15:38.400 --> 0:15:42.200 person's actions has caused in regards to your life and 0:15:42.520 --> 0:15:45.880 the paint. What would you say that James Church now 0:15:46.000 --> 0:15:46.960 if he was still alive. 0:15:48.280 --> 0:15:50.040 What I said in ConA is when I was allowed 0:15:50.080 --> 0:15:53.720 to speak. You know, throughout the whole process, we had 0:15:53.760 --> 0:15:56.920 no input into any of the decisions that were made, 0:15:57.680 --> 0:16:02.680 and you know, yet we suffered the consequences. I didn't 0:16:02.720 --> 0:16:06.520 decide to murder my sister because of a supposed event 0:16:06.640 --> 0:16:09.120 that you know, and there was some conjecture about whether 0:16:09.120 --> 0:16:11.120 Lisa was pregnant or not. I think she was, but 0:16:11.280 --> 0:16:14.520 that's a separate thing. You know, I didn't ask for 0:16:14.560 --> 0:16:16.880 any of this. You know, he had no right to 0:16:16.920 --> 0:16:20.640 do what he did. And you know the ways that 0:16:20.640 --> 0:16:23.360 that has impacted me and my family. 0:16:23.520 --> 0:16:25.240 Some we've worked out, others. 0:16:25.320 --> 0:16:28.560 You know, I might never understand how it's affected me 0:16:28.720 --> 0:16:29.800 or my perspective. 0:16:30.720 --> 0:16:34.040 You know, she had her life ahead of us, and to. 0:16:34.040 --> 0:16:36.760 Think that someone felt that they had the right to 0:16:36.840 --> 0:16:39.720 do that makes me so angry and upset. 0:16:40.480 --> 0:16:43.200 You know, who did he think he was to do that? 0:16:43.800 --> 0:16:46.440 You know, what gave him the right to abuse his partners, 0:16:46.600 --> 0:16:51.320 you know, or commit violence against them? Like I don't 0:16:51.320 --> 0:16:54.920 know whether I talk to him, I probably would just 0:16:55.040 --> 0:16:59.000 refuse to acknowledge his existence in all honesty, Gary, because 0:16:59.040 --> 0:17:04.119 I think acknowledge his existence in some ways legitimizes his behavior, 0:17:04.240 --> 0:17:06.960 especially with what he did to my sister. And I 0:17:07.000 --> 0:17:11.480 will never ever condone violence against another person, as much 0:17:11.480 --> 0:17:13.840 as you might want to do something because you're frustrated, 0:17:14.320 --> 0:17:16.760 thinking about it and carrying it out are too completely 0:17:16.960 --> 0:17:21.439 opposite opposite things. You know, there's that no I know 0:17:21.480 --> 0:17:23.160 what's wrong, and therefore I won't do it. 0:17:23.800 --> 0:17:25.120 But it's just. 0:17:27.280 --> 0:17:29.600 Just he did something he didn't have the right to do, 0:17:29.680 --> 0:17:32.160 and I will never understand why he thought he did. 0:17:32.520 --> 0:17:36.160 And you know, the stress and the angst and the 0:17:36.200 --> 0:17:42.240 pain and the impact that that has had on my family, 0:17:42.320 --> 0:17:44.679 so my husband and my kids as well as you know, 0:17:44.960 --> 0:17:46.960 my siblings and whatnot. 0:17:47.600 --> 0:17:49.919 I don't think that will ever be able to be quantified. 0:17:49.920 --> 0:17:51.919 And I don't think something like that can be for 0:17:52.000 --> 0:17:55.040 any family where a member or a. 0:17:54.960 --> 0:17:57.280 Lot ofd ones gone missing, to be found murdered. I 0:17:57.320 --> 0:17:59.920 just think it's something that's so. 0:18:00.160 --> 0:18:05.440 Intangible and can't be measured or correlated or put in 0:18:05.640 --> 0:18:10.400 put in a way that can be measured objectively. That's 0:18:10.600 --> 0:18:13.520 what makes it so difficult to rest with while you're 0:18:13.560 --> 0:18:15.600 going through the system. It's not like you can say 0:18:15.600 --> 0:18:17.400 I had five of these and now I've got team 0:18:17.440 --> 0:18:20.200 and now I've lost a lot sort of things. Yeah, 0:18:21.560 --> 0:18:27.679 it's just it's hard to verbilize it. But I just 0:18:27.840 --> 0:18:31.119 think that, you know, we're expected to pay for something 0:18:31.160 --> 0:18:33.800 that we didn't necessarily want. 0:18:34.000 --> 0:18:37.160 Or have any input in, and. 0:18:38.160 --> 0:18:42.919 I just yeah, yeah, it's hard to put into words. 0:18:43.600 --> 0:18:46.200 What would you say the families face with the battle 0:18:46.200 --> 0:18:48.119 that you've had has been a battle for you to 0:18:48.160 --> 0:18:52.000 get it to this point about your shame, resilience and 0:18:52.359 --> 0:18:57.480 tenacity to continue and fight for Liesel's memory. What would 0:18:57.520 --> 0:19:00.800 you advise families that might find themselves in similar situations 0:19:00.840 --> 0:19:04.080 where they're battling the system, so to speak. 0:19:05.600 --> 0:19:08.399 You can only do what you can only do, you know, 0:19:09.320 --> 0:19:10.040 I guess you know. 0:19:10.440 --> 0:19:13.280 I always hate it when people said, you know, time 0:19:13.320 --> 0:19:14.960 heals time, doesn't you. 0:19:17.840 --> 0:19:17.919 Know? 0:19:18.000 --> 0:19:19.840 And it is only one day at a time. 0:19:20.119 --> 0:19:25.600 You can't control other people's reactions or decisions. You can 0:19:25.600 --> 0:19:29.320 only do your own. And if that's all that you 0:19:29.359 --> 0:19:33.159 can manage, that's okay. And it doesn't matters whether you know, 0:19:34.560 --> 0:19:35.960 I liken it to a marathon. 0:19:36.800 --> 0:19:38.639 You just keep plugging at it. If you take a 0:19:38.680 --> 0:19:40.000 week off because that's what. 0:19:39.920 --> 0:19:41.919 You need to do for your mental health, and you 0:19:41.960 --> 0:19:43.520 need to step away, that's okay. 0:19:43.840 --> 0:19:44.040 You know. 0:19:44.240 --> 0:19:48.720 It's you're not going to You're not going to forget them. 0:19:49.200 --> 0:19:52.080 It's not going to fall apart. Whatever you're trying to achieve, 0:19:52.200 --> 0:19:54.600 it's not going to go away. It will still be there. 0:19:54.640 --> 0:19:57.080 If you need to take a step away, you know, 0:19:57.280 --> 0:20:00.520 spend time with families that are there, and you know 0:20:00.880 --> 0:20:04.360 your mental health is important, you know, because without that 0:20:04.600 --> 0:20:06.720 you can't just you can't function. 0:20:07.080 --> 0:20:12.199 Yeah, and sadly, I've seen too many families fighting for 0:20:12.359 --> 0:20:15.920 justice in a whole range of different different forms. And 0:20:16.320 --> 0:20:19.200 part of the advice I give them is if you've 0:20:19.240 --> 0:20:22.640 got to step away, a step away, and you articulated 0:20:22.640 --> 0:20:25.080 that very well, that you can step away and take 0:20:25.119 --> 0:20:28.159 a break, and then when you rebuilt yourself, go for 0:20:28.240 --> 0:20:32.560 it again. I also got advice from Mark and Fay Levison, 0:20:32.600 --> 0:20:34.320 who had a battle with a system and had to 0:20:34.320 --> 0:20:36.120 try something a little bit different. 0:20:36.400 --> 0:20:39.760 Out of left field to recover their son. 0:20:39.840 --> 0:20:43.440 And Mark's words and I pass these words on to 0:20:43.520 --> 0:20:46.199 a lot of people, just don't take no for an answer, 0:20:46.280 --> 0:20:49.640 because I would imagine if if you just accepted what 0:20:49.800 --> 0:20:53.640 the system told you, we wouldn't be having this conversation now. 0:20:54.000 --> 0:20:56.760 Probably not. I mean, no is not the worst thing 0:20:56.800 --> 0:20:59.600 that people can say. I've had no a number of 0:20:59.680 --> 0:21:01.720 time and it's like, well, okay, you said no. 0:21:02.880 --> 0:21:04.880 That just means that I need to work out how 0:21:04.920 --> 0:21:07.040 it can happen in a different way. 0:21:07.600 --> 0:21:09.400 There are ways to achieve results. 0:21:09.720 --> 0:21:12.720 Let's I'll just take you briefly through the findings, because 0:21:12.720 --> 0:21:15.679 it is good to hear it said publicly and the 0:21:15.720 --> 0:21:18.000 findings to be published, and this is the findings from 0:21:18.040 --> 0:21:21.880 the coroner in regards to Liesl's death. The person who 0:21:21.960 --> 0:21:25.960 died was Liesel Smith. The date to death Liesel died 0:21:26.000 --> 0:21:28.520 on the nine eighth of August twenty twelve, at some 0:21:28.680 --> 0:21:32.879 time after two point two pm. Place of death. Liesel 0:21:32.960 --> 0:21:35.560 died at or somewhere in the vicinity of the Central 0:21:35.600 --> 0:21:39.840 Coast or Upper Hut regions of New South Wales. The 0:21:39.880 --> 0:21:44.679 cause of death. Liesel's cause of death remains unknown. Manner 0:21:44.720 --> 0:21:48.520 of death. Liesel's death was a homicide. She was killed 0:21:48.600 --> 0:21:54.320 by James Scott Church. So you've got someone in the 0:21:54.440 --> 0:22:01.600 judicial system actually saying he's responsible. So I would imagine 0:22:01.640 --> 0:22:07.240 that it gives you some comfort, not closure, not timehells 0:22:07.320 --> 0:22:10.280 or wounds, but it gives you some acknowledgment that at 0:22:10.359 --> 0:22:14.000 least the person responsible has been held accountable in some way. 0:22:15.200 --> 0:22:17.520 Yeah, it does, because I was thinking about this the 0:22:17.600 --> 0:22:18.000 other day. 0:22:18.000 --> 0:22:24.480 Funny enough, we've got someone named you know, I know personally, 0:22:24.720 --> 0:22:27.280 I know who did it and it was him. And 0:22:27.320 --> 0:22:31.320 I think about families where it's fifteen, twenty, twenty five, 0:22:31.520 --> 0:22:34.679 thirty plus years and they're no closer to having an 0:22:34.720 --> 0:22:38.320 answer in terms of what happened or who did it, 0:22:38.560 --> 0:22:43.880 or you know, any sort of indication that things are 0:22:44.080 --> 0:22:45.000 going to be they're. 0:22:44.800 --> 0:22:46.160 Going to get some sort of answer. 0:22:46.800 --> 0:22:50.920 And I think in terms of that, compared to other people, 0:22:52.040 --> 0:22:52.640 I don't. 0:22:52.440 --> 0:22:53.879