1 00:00:01,880 --> 00:00:04,880 Speaker 1: The public has had a long held fascination with detectives. 2 00:00:05,360 --> 00:00:08,039 Speaker 1: Detective sy aside of life, the average person is never 3 00:00:08,119 --> 00:00:11,119 Speaker 1: exposed her I spent thirty four years as a cop. 4 00:00:11,560 --> 00:00:14,040 Speaker 1: For twenty five of those years I was catching killers. 5 00:00:14,440 --> 00:00:16,200 Speaker 1: That's what I did for a living. I was a 6 00:00:16,200 --> 00:00:20,560 Speaker 1: homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead, 7 00:00:20,600 --> 00:00:23,120 Speaker 1: I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated. 8 00:00:23,840 --> 00:00:26,400 Speaker 1: The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories 9 00:00:26,440 --> 00:00:28,760 Speaker 1: from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw 10 00:00:28,800 --> 00:00:31,440 Speaker 1: and honest, just like the people I talk to. Some 11 00:00:31,600 --> 00:00:34,640 Speaker 1: of the content and language might be confronting. That's because 12 00:00:34,640 --> 00:00:37,640 Speaker 1: no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged. 13 00:00:38,159 --> 00:00:40,400 Speaker 1: Join me now as I take you into this world. 14 00:00:46,520 --> 00:00:49,800 Speaker 1: Welcome to a bonus follow up episode of I Catch Killers. 15 00:00:50,560 --> 00:00:54,960 Speaker 1: Back in twenty twenty three, our guest Geraldine Kane reached 16 00:00:55,000 --> 00:00:57,840 Speaker 1: out to me to discuss the murder investigation of a sister, 17 00:00:58,200 --> 00:01:02,320 Speaker 1: Liesel Smith. Lisel Smith was just twenty three years old 18 00:01:02,440 --> 00:01:04,759 Speaker 1: when she vanished from the central coast of New South 19 00:01:04,760 --> 00:01:08,600 Speaker 1: Wales in twenty twelve. The police believed that she had 20 00:01:08,640 --> 00:01:12,720 Speaker 1: been murdered and that they knew who was responsible police 21 00:01:12,760 --> 00:01:15,440 Speaker 1: were in the process of getting answers for Liesl's family. 22 00:01:16,360 --> 00:01:19,840 Speaker 1: They had charged her partner, James Scott Church, with a murder, 23 00:01:20,080 --> 00:01:22,920 Speaker 1: and after a lengthy judge only trill that sat for 24 00:01:23,000 --> 00:01:27,679 Speaker 1: over sixty eight days, Justice Elizabeth Fulton indicated she would 25 00:01:27,680 --> 00:01:30,919 Speaker 1: hand down her verdict on the eighth of July twenty 26 00:01:31,040 --> 00:01:34,520 Speaker 1: twenty two. Geraldine and the family had waited ten years 27 00:01:34,520 --> 00:01:37,480 Speaker 1: for this moment, but the day they had been waiting 28 00:01:37,520 --> 00:01:41,319 Speaker 1: for was taken away from them when James Church took 29 00:01:41,319 --> 00:01:43,960 Speaker 1: his own life the day before the verdict was due 30 00:01:43,959 --> 00:01:47,640 Speaker 1: to be handed down. Geraldine was informed, due to this 31 00:01:47,840 --> 00:01:51,080 Speaker 1: the rigid legal system that seems to lack any compassion, 32 00:01:51,480 --> 00:01:54,240 Speaker 1: that the verdict could not be made available to the public. 33 00:01:55,120 --> 00:01:57,880 Speaker 1: That just added to the trauma of the family. I 34 00:01:57,920 --> 00:02:00,800 Speaker 1: always believed that if the law was broken or failed 35 00:02:00,800 --> 00:02:03,280 Speaker 1: the people is there to serve, it should be changed. 36 00:02:04,240 --> 00:02:07,160 Speaker 1: After meeting with Geraldine, I suggested that the simplest way 37 00:02:07,240 --> 00:02:09,960 Speaker 1: the hurdle could be overcome was for the matter to 38 00:02:10,000 --> 00:02:12,640 Speaker 1: be referred to the coroner and the coroner could deliver 39 00:02:12,680 --> 00:02:16,360 Speaker 1: a finding. This was without precedent, but to me it 40 00:02:16,440 --> 00:02:19,360 Speaker 1: seemed to be a simple fix on the back of 41 00:02:19,400 --> 00:02:23,320 Speaker 1: those discussions, Geraldine appeared on I Catch Killers and lobbied 42 00:02:23,360 --> 00:02:26,000 Speaker 1: in the media and with the law makers to see 43 00:02:26,000 --> 00:02:28,959 Speaker 1: if this could be achieved. It makes me very happy 44 00:02:28,960 --> 00:02:32,120 Speaker 1: to announce that Geraldine's efforts were rewarded. And on the 45 00:02:32,120 --> 00:02:36,080 Speaker 1: twenty ninth of September this year, Deputy State Coroner Harriet 46 00:02:36,120 --> 00:02:39,400 Speaker 1: Graham found that Liesel Smith was killed by a partner, 47 00:02:39,600 --> 00:02:43,400 Speaker 1: James Scott Church. So I thought they'd get Geraldine back 48 00:02:43,440 --> 00:02:47,120 Speaker 1: on the podcast to discuss the process and the impact 49 00:02:47,160 --> 00:02:51,720 Speaker 1: that it's had on her. Geraldine Kane, Welcome back to 50 00:02:51,760 --> 00:02:52,560 Speaker 1: I Catch Killers. 51 00:02:53,480 --> 00:02:54,800 Speaker 2: Thanks Gary, Thanksgarving me. 52 00:02:55,520 --> 00:02:57,280 Speaker 3: Well, it's good to have you back here. 53 00:02:57,320 --> 00:03:01,040 Speaker 1: But the circumstances that we'd probably we all be happier 54 00:03:01,080 --> 00:03:05,079 Speaker 1: if I wasn't speaking to you, But there's been Yeah, 55 00:03:05,440 --> 00:03:07,840 Speaker 1: it is what it is, isn't it. There's been some 56 00:03:08,200 --> 00:03:12,919 Speaker 1: developments on Lisel's case. Now I've explained to the audience 57 00:03:13,240 --> 00:03:17,640 Speaker 1: about the background to the situation, and can you just 58 00:03:17,680 --> 00:03:20,680 Speaker 1: tell us in your words what's occurred since we last 59 00:03:20,880 --> 00:03:22,680 Speaker 1: had you on the podcast and spoke to you at 60 00:03:22,680 --> 00:03:24,760 Speaker 1: the coroner's court I think was the last time I 61 00:03:24,760 --> 00:03:25,080 Speaker 1: saw you. 62 00:03:26,000 --> 00:03:31,600 Speaker 4: Yeah, So Coroner's finished and she went to basically think 63 00:03:31,639 --> 00:03:34,000 Speaker 4: over what had been presented to her, and she was 64 00:03:34,040 --> 00:03:37,960 Speaker 4: also taking some leave that had been pre planned a 65 00:03:38,040 --> 00:03:42,360 Speaker 4: while before, and then gave us a date that it 66 00:03:42,480 --> 00:03:44,200 Speaker 4: was on the date of my birthday. Actually that she 67 00:03:44,280 --> 00:03:52,880 Speaker 4: presented her findings, and basically she found that Jim Church 68 00:03:53,000 --> 00:03:56,920 Speaker 4: had killed Lisel, he was responsible for her death, and 69 00:03:57,600 --> 00:04:03,880 Speaker 4: that if Lisel's remains were ever found that she would 70 00:04:03,880 --> 00:04:06,320 Speaker 4: reopen the case because the manner of death could not 71 00:04:06,360 --> 00:04:11,040 Speaker 4: be ascertained, obviously, but she accepted the evidence that had 72 00:04:11,040 --> 00:04:16,680 Speaker 4: been put before her, and she also mentioned to the 73 00:04:16,680 --> 00:04:19,679 Speaker 4: ag there'd been a review I think it was twenty 74 00:04:19,720 --> 00:04:22,599 Speaker 4: twenty three, and a certain number of recommendations have not 75 00:04:22,640 --> 00:04:26,039 Speaker 4: been implemented, one of which was recommendation thirty four. My 76 00:04:26,200 --> 00:04:29,719 Speaker 4: understanding is that the coroner should not have to name 77 00:04:29,760 --> 00:04:34,480 Speaker 4: a person as having done an action that has caused 78 00:04:34,480 --> 00:04:35,200 Speaker 4: the death of another. 79 00:04:35,360 --> 00:04:36,159 Speaker 2: I might be wrong. 80 00:04:37,040 --> 00:04:40,440 Speaker 4: It's all very much legal jargon and everything. But she 81 00:04:40,520 --> 00:04:43,800 Speaker 4: was not impressive. None of the recommendations have been implemented 82 00:04:44,320 --> 00:04:49,000 Speaker 4: from that review, and she also referred basically not our case, 83 00:04:49,040 --> 00:04:53,960 Speaker 4: but more the circumstances in terms of the issue of abatement, 84 00:04:54,040 --> 00:04:56,640 Speaker 4: which has been the biggest hurdle in terms of not 85 00:04:56,640 --> 00:05:00,560 Speaker 4: getting a verdict, has asked the AG to refer that 86 00:05:00,680 --> 00:05:03,159 Speaker 4: to the new South Wales Legal Commission four of you 87 00:05:03,920 --> 00:05:06,960 Speaker 4: to see whether there can be any sort of changes 88 00:05:07,000 --> 00:05:11,520 Speaker 4: to the law on specific circumstances such as what happened 89 00:05:11,520 --> 00:05:13,840 Speaker 4: with Lisal, which is what she can do. 90 00:05:14,520 --> 00:05:17,960 Speaker 1: Yeah, I've been through the findings of the coroner and 91 00:05:17,960 --> 00:05:21,440 Speaker 1: there's some significant things in there, and from a personal 92 00:05:21,520 --> 00:05:24,720 Speaker 1: point of view for yourself and your family, calling that 93 00:05:24,800 --> 00:05:27,880 Speaker 1: limbo situation of sitting through I think it was over 94 00:05:28,040 --> 00:05:31,000 Speaker 1: or sixty eight days hearing of a trial for the 95 00:05:31,040 --> 00:05:35,040 Speaker 1: person that was charged with murdering Lisel and then have 96 00:05:35,200 --> 00:05:38,640 Speaker 1: that person kill themselves on the virtual day that the 97 00:05:38,839 --> 00:05:41,320 Speaker 1: judge only it was a judge only trial was going 98 00:05:41,400 --> 00:05:44,599 Speaker 1: to hand down the verdict. How distressing that would have 99 00:05:44,640 --> 00:05:47,560 Speaker 1: been for the family because you battled. It was a 100 00:05:47,600 --> 00:05:50,000 Speaker 1: ten year battle to get it to that point basically, 101 00:05:50,520 --> 00:05:54,360 Speaker 1: and then you're left in limbo with no one being 102 00:05:54,400 --> 00:05:56,320 Speaker 1: accountable for what's happened to your sister. 103 00:05:57,160 --> 00:05:59,440 Speaker 4: Yeah, it was interesting because the detectives involved in the 104 00:05:59,440 --> 00:06:02,400 Speaker 4: coastal had different points of view as well, but the 105 00:06:02,440 --> 00:06:06,120 Speaker 4: current actually found that quite helpful. She said, because it 106 00:06:06,200 --> 00:06:11,719 Speaker 4: shows the amount of consideration that or the variance of 107 00:06:11,839 --> 00:06:16,040 Speaker 4: perspectives that is raised with term of abatement and how 108 00:06:16,080 --> 00:06:20,480 Speaker 4: that would apply. What I found really interesting was that 109 00:06:20,640 --> 00:06:26,000 Speaker 4: not one family member from the defendant, none of his friends, 110 00:06:26,480 --> 00:06:29,080 Speaker 4: nobody turned up to defend him or to say no, 111 00:06:29,360 --> 00:06:31,760 Speaker 4: the evidence you've presented his role and they had the 112 00:06:31,800 --> 00:06:32,720 Speaker 4: opportunity to do so. 113 00:06:32,920 --> 00:06:37,640 Speaker 2: A nata kind you know, if everyone's saying, oh, he didn't. 114 00:06:37,320 --> 00:06:40,279 Speaker 3: Do it, where were they? 115 00:06:40,400 --> 00:06:44,200 Speaker 1: And also on the thing and when we first met, 116 00:06:44,240 --> 00:06:46,839 Speaker 1: and this was the thing that I could tell was 117 00:06:46,839 --> 00:06:49,520 Speaker 1: your frustration, but that it was mine having a bit 118 00:06:49,520 --> 00:06:52,479 Speaker 1: more of an understanding about the legal system and about 119 00:06:52,640 --> 00:06:56,400 Speaker 1: what it takes to convict someone of murder or at 120 00:06:56,480 --> 00:07:00,000 Speaker 1: least have a murder trial. All the evidence had been presented, 121 00:07:00,520 --> 00:07:05,720 Speaker 1: any defense opportunity that was available to him, it could 122 00:07:05,720 --> 00:07:08,760 Speaker 1: have been taken during the trial, if I could understand, 123 00:07:08,800 --> 00:07:12,400 Speaker 1: it would be a completely different situation if he had 124 00:07:12,480 --> 00:07:16,320 Speaker 1: no opportunity to defend himself. But the system was set 125 00:07:16,400 --> 00:07:18,280 Speaker 1: up to allow him to defend himself. 126 00:07:18,880 --> 00:07:23,080 Speaker 4: Yeah, he had every availability to participate how he wanted to. 127 00:07:23,560 --> 00:07:26,200 Speaker 1: And then when we talk the abatement, I think we're 128 00:07:26,200 --> 00:07:29,680 Speaker 1: talking in legal terminology, we're talking about whether a decision 129 00:07:30,080 --> 00:07:32,440 Speaker 1: can be made in the absence of the accused person 130 00:07:32,680 --> 00:07:34,400 Speaker 1: when the person's passed away. 131 00:07:35,120 --> 00:07:37,920 Speaker 2: So that's my understanding. 132 00:07:38,080 --> 00:07:40,600 Speaker 1: Yeah, and I think the coroner will touch on a 133 00:07:40,640 --> 00:07:43,960 Speaker 1: little bit later in the recommendations that the coroner has made. 134 00:07:43,960 --> 00:07:48,000 Speaker 1: But looking for legislation to be changed because clearly a 135 00:07:48,120 --> 00:07:50,680 Speaker 1: legal system should be there to serve the people that 136 00:07:50,840 --> 00:07:54,720 Speaker 1: represents and if justice is not done because of some 137 00:07:54,960 --> 00:07:59,720 Speaker 1: antiquated legal principle, maybe that's when changes should be done. 138 00:08:00,080 --> 00:08:02,920 Speaker 1: I'm look, I'm happy for you, and happy is a 139 00:08:02,960 --> 00:08:05,880 Speaker 1: funny word put when you're talking about the murder of 140 00:08:05,920 --> 00:08:09,280 Speaker 1: your sister, But I'm happy at least someone has been 141 00:08:09,320 --> 00:08:13,160 Speaker 1: identified as been responsible for the murder of Lisel. 142 00:08:13,960 --> 00:08:19,920 Speaker 4: I think it just confirmed, especially after listening to all 143 00:08:19,960 --> 00:08:23,280 Speaker 4: the relevant evidence that was presented in coroners, because obviously 144 00:08:23,320 --> 00:08:28,080 Speaker 4: there's different ways that the courts are run, criminal versus coroners. 145 00:08:28,880 --> 00:08:33,040 Speaker 4: It just really cemented what I've come to. The conclusion 146 00:08:33,040 --> 00:08:35,440 Speaker 4: I come to during the criminal court was that you know, 147 00:08:36,280 --> 00:08:38,920 Speaker 4: he did it, you know, and I have to commend 148 00:08:39,040 --> 00:08:43,720 Speaker 4: the women that were his intimate partners that had been abused, 149 00:08:44,320 --> 00:08:50,160 Speaker 4: you know, quite extensively by Church, who submitted after David's 150 00:08:50,160 --> 00:08:52,480 Speaker 4: in support of the criminal child. 151 00:08:52,640 --> 00:08:56,080 Speaker 2: It was never presented basically because. 152 00:08:56,000 --> 00:08:59,400 Speaker 4: The DPP at the time felt that they had enough evidence, 153 00:08:59,400 --> 00:09:02,360 Speaker 4: which is fine, but because it was relevant in criminal 154 00:09:02,400 --> 00:09:05,240 Speaker 4: court as sorry in Coronis court, they looked at that 155 00:09:06,200 --> 00:09:10,640 Speaker 4: he was still perpetrating domestic violence, or rather violence against women, 156 00:09:10,640 --> 00:09:14,320 Speaker 4: because there's nothing domestic against about it against the partner 157 00:09:14,320 --> 00:09:17,839 Speaker 4: that he had when he died. So you know, I 158 00:09:17,960 --> 00:09:20,680 Speaker 4: just I take my hat off to these women that, 159 00:09:20,800 --> 00:09:24,760 Speaker 4: even under fear and you know, fear of their life 160 00:09:24,840 --> 00:09:28,319 Speaker 4: from him and the abuseit he perpetrated against them, stepped 161 00:09:28,400 --> 00:09:31,040 Speaker 4: up and provided evidence to show that he had a. 162 00:09:31,040 --> 00:09:31,880 Speaker 2: History of it. 163 00:09:31,960 --> 00:09:34,800 Speaker 4: He certainly had motive, and he had an extensive history 164 00:09:34,840 --> 00:09:38,960 Speaker 4: of violence against women and animals as well, which you know, 165 00:09:39,080 --> 00:09:43,840 Speaker 4: a huge red flags. So look, the thing for me 166 00:09:44,160 --> 00:09:46,640 Speaker 4: is that he can't appeal it. He can't say you 167 00:09:46,679 --> 00:09:52,559 Speaker 4: didn't do it. It confirms what majority of us believed, even 168 00:09:52,600 --> 00:09:55,360 Speaker 4: though we don't have a verdict. And I really hope 169 00:09:55,360 --> 00:09:58,200 Speaker 4: that the age takes on board what the Coron has 170 00:09:58,240 --> 00:10:02,520 Speaker 4: said and refers, you know, refers to as she's recommended, 171 00:10:02,679 --> 00:10:08,200 Speaker 4: and you know, stops another family from having to do this. 172 00:10:08,400 --> 00:10:11,079 Speaker 4: It's just, you know, it's not that it's not fair, 173 00:10:11,760 --> 00:10:15,959 Speaker 4: but there was no need for it. I don't think, 174 00:10:16,120 --> 00:10:19,680 Speaker 4: And I think if it can be prevented in the future, 175 00:10:19,800 --> 00:10:23,000 Speaker 4: as I said, you know, specifics with legislation and stuff, 176 00:10:23,040 --> 00:10:25,440 Speaker 4: then it should be you know, people shouldn't be forced 177 00:10:25,440 --> 00:10:27,520 Speaker 4: to go through this just because, as you said, there's 178 00:10:27,559 --> 00:10:31,560 Speaker 4: an antiquate, hated yeah law or reasoning that you know, 179 00:10:31,679 --> 00:10:33,320 Speaker 4: that's because it's always been the way. 180 00:10:33,480 --> 00:10:36,720 Speaker 2: Well that's not good enough never, you know, nor should 181 00:10:36,720 --> 00:10:36,920 Speaker 2: it be. 182 00:10:37,240 --> 00:10:40,560 Speaker 1: And that was the frustration that was coming across with 183 00:10:40,640 --> 00:10:43,440 Speaker 1: you when you're explaining the situation to me when we 184 00:10:43,480 --> 00:10:47,160 Speaker 1: first met that you've constantly been told, well, this is 185 00:10:47,200 --> 00:10:50,839 Speaker 1: what we do. But the situation that presented yourself in 186 00:10:51,160 --> 00:10:54,480 Speaker 1: this particular case is a unique set of circumstances. It's 187 00:10:54,520 --> 00:10:58,000 Speaker 1: not going to happen very often, but it potentially could happen. 188 00:10:58,400 --> 00:11:00,880 Speaker 1: And by changing the legisla that it's not going to 189 00:11:00,920 --> 00:11:03,040 Speaker 1: open the floodgates. The world's not going to change. It 190 00:11:03,080 --> 00:11:06,199 Speaker 1: will just stop families like your family going through what 191 00:11:06,880 --> 00:11:10,280 Speaker 1: you've gone through before. And that's interesting when all the 192 00:11:10,320 --> 00:11:13,640 Speaker 1: evidence is presented at a coroner's inquest because it's an 193 00:11:13,640 --> 00:11:17,120 Speaker 1: inquisitorial so the rules of evidence differ from the adversarial 194 00:11:17,160 --> 00:11:20,440 Speaker 1: system that the criminal core is. But it just adds 195 00:11:20,440 --> 00:11:23,440 Speaker 1: to the weight of evidence against him. 196 00:11:23,880 --> 00:11:26,560 Speaker 4: I think it certainly supported the case that the DPP had. 197 00:11:26,679 --> 00:11:28,920 Speaker 4: It showed that, you know, as I said, there was 198 00:11:29,040 --> 00:11:31,440 Speaker 4: history and everything. I think the other thing in getting 199 00:11:31,480 --> 00:11:34,080 Speaker 4: the law change is that it acts as at a turrent. 200 00:11:34,880 --> 00:11:40,680 Speaker 4: If people that are considering doing the same thing know that, well, 201 00:11:40,679 --> 00:11:43,000 Speaker 4: you can do that, but this is what's going to 202 00:11:43,000 --> 00:11:48,680 Speaker 4: happen regardless. Then you can either take the chance what's 203 00:11:49,440 --> 00:11:52,360 Speaker 4: what gets said an appeal and you know, try and 204 00:11:52,400 --> 00:11:55,920 Speaker 4: do it that way, or you just get named and 205 00:11:55,960 --> 00:11:58,920 Speaker 4: that's it and you don't have any chance of running 206 00:11:58,920 --> 00:12:02,200 Speaker 4: an appeal. Then yeah, I honestly think it will, you know, 207 00:12:02,800 --> 00:12:04,920 Speaker 4: act as a terrent for people that are considering that 208 00:12:05,080 --> 00:12:06,560 Speaker 4: path to try and get out of. 209 00:12:06,480 --> 00:12:10,559 Speaker 2: Having to do time. That's just my personal opinion whether 210 00:12:10,600 --> 00:12:11,440 Speaker 2: that's the case or not. 211 00:12:11,800 --> 00:12:15,840 Speaker 1: I hadn't that's an interesting perspective. I hadn't even considered that. 212 00:12:15,920 --> 00:12:18,480 Speaker 1: I was thinking more of the anks that would cause 213 00:12:18,679 --> 00:12:22,280 Speaker 1: the families of loved ones. But yes, because it is 214 00:12:22,320 --> 00:12:24,880 Speaker 1: a way that people could take out to protect their 215 00:12:24,880 --> 00:12:29,520 Speaker 1: reputation knowing the inevitables coming, and well, if I'm no 216 00:12:29,559 --> 00:12:33,400 Speaker 1: longer here my reputation there'll still be an element of doubt. 217 00:12:33,520 --> 00:12:36,280 Speaker 1: So that's a very valid point, a very valid point, 218 00:12:36,280 --> 00:12:39,560 Speaker 1: and I think it's something that should should be considered. 219 00:12:40,320 --> 00:12:42,400 Speaker 4: I think the two acting is a too terrent in 220 00:12:42,440 --> 00:12:44,800 Speaker 4: preventing anks for the family go hand in hand. 221 00:12:45,200 --> 00:12:45,560 Speaker 2: You know. 222 00:12:47,640 --> 00:12:50,960 Speaker 4: There's innocent until presumed guilty, but at the same time 223 00:12:51,600 --> 00:12:54,600 Speaker 4: you know you shouldn't. That shouldn't be in the pursuit 224 00:12:54,640 --> 00:12:57,120 Speaker 4: of not causing a victim's family more angst than. 225 00:12:57,080 --> 00:12:59,920 Speaker 1: Needed, And it could be a case of a drag 226 00:13:00,280 --> 00:13:04,200 Speaker 1: a court matter out until someone passes by natural causes 227 00:13:04,800 --> 00:13:07,720 Speaker 1: rather than suicide. So it shows that there's no benefits 228 00:13:07,760 --> 00:13:11,400 Speaker 1: in delaying matters as well. So no, I think it's 229 00:13:12,040 --> 00:13:15,840 Speaker 1: a significant result that you've managed to get. Is it 230 00:13:15,880 --> 00:13:18,440 Speaker 1: a double edged sword in a way because the person 231 00:13:18,520 --> 00:13:22,079 Speaker 1: hasn't been held accountable why he's still on this earth 232 00:13:22,559 --> 00:13:27,240 Speaker 1: and you don't know the full details. Taught me through 233 00:13:27,240 --> 00:13:30,000 Speaker 1: it from a personal point of view, it's. 234 00:13:29,880 --> 00:13:33,320 Speaker 4: Been something that I've I've had to work out what 235 00:13:33,360 --> 00:13:37,000 Speaker 4: I'm happy with, would I've liked him to be held 236 00:13:37,000 --> 00:13:39,640 Speaker 4: accountable and be doing jail time, and you know, his 237 00:13:40,840 --> 00:13:45,840 Speaker 4: to him, his reputation in tatters. Yeah, you know, but 238 00:13:45,920 --> 00:13:48,319 Speaker 4: at the end of the day, as I said before, 239 00:13:48,320 --> 00:13:51,320 Speaker 4: it doesn't bring it back. It doesn't change what he did. 240 00:13:51,559 --> 00:13:55,880 Speaker 4: It doesn't mitigate the abuse that she went through, or 241 00:13:56,720 --> 00:14:00,520 Speaker 4: you know, the steps that he took off towards to 242 00:14:00,520 --> 00:14:03,439 Speaker 4: try and cover what he did. At the end of 243 00:14:03,480 --> 00:14:06,840 Speaker 4: the day, it doesn't change anything. Lisel's not here. I 244 00:14:06,880 --> 00:14:09,200 Speaker 4: can't do anything about that. Him being alive or not 245 00:14:09,360 --> 00:14:14,800 Speaker 4: doesn't change that. I guess the biggest thing that I 246 00:14:14,800 --> 00:14:19,720 Speaker 4: have felt was the best for me was that the 247 00:14:19,800 --> 00:14:24,360 Speaker 4: Corona has named him as contributing or causing Liesl's death, 248 00:14:24,440 --> 00:14:28,120 Speaker 4: rather and the fact that he can't do anything about it. 249 00:14:28,680 --> 00:14:31,320 Speaker 4: He's been named as causing the death of my sister. 250 00:14:31,440 --> 00:14:33,960 Speaker 4: He can't appeal it, His family can't do anything. They 251 00:14:34,000 --> 00:14:37,560 Speaker 4: certainly weren't interested in defending his reputation or defending his 252 00:14:37,680 --> 00:14:41,520 Speaker 4: character in coronial court. And you know that is forever 253 00:14:41,600 --> 00:14:44,800 Speaker 4: on the record now, and I think in the scheme 254 00:14:44,840 --> 00:14:48,440 Speaker 4: of things and the context of what's gone on, that 255 00:14:48,600 --> 00:14:52,320 Speaker 4: was probably the best outcome that we were going to 256 00:14:52,440 --> 00:14:56,680 Speaker 4: get and as I said, something you know said mentioned 257 00:14:56,680 --> 00:14:58,200 Speaker 4: before something was better than nothing. 258 00:14:58,760 --> 00:15:01,480 Speaker 2: That's something, as you said, is quite substantial. You know. 259 00:15:01,840 --> 00:15:04,000 Speaker 2: It's it's not. 260 00:15:03,920 --> 00:15:09,480 Speaker 4: Necessarily set a precedent, but it's shown that what happened 261 00:15:09,560 --> 00:15:13,840 Speaker 4: was not okay. And so it provides, I guess, the 262 00:15:13,880 --> 00:15:17,120 Speaker 4: founding blocks of things to be built upon for that. 263 00:15:17,640 --> 00:15:22,360 Speaker 4: And if that's what's come of what's occurred, I'm okay 264 00:15:22,400 --> 00:15:22,680 Speaker 4: with that. 265 00:15:22,920 --> 00:15:24,480 Speaker 3: Yeah, I understand. 266 00:15:24,280 --> 00:15:26,160 Speaker 2: As I said, it just doesn't change anything. 267 00:15:27,840 --> 00:15:31,040 Speaker 1: One thing that you missed out on the opportunity in 268 00:15:31,040 --> 00:15:34,720 Speaker 1: a murder troll is a victim's impact statement that you 269 00:15:34,760 --> 00:15:38,360 Speaker 1: get up and you explain to the court what the 270 00:15:38,400 --> 00:15:42,200 Speaker 1: person's actions has caused in regards to your life and 271 00:15:42,520 --> 00:15:45,880 Speaker 1: the paint. What would you say that James Church now 272 00:15:46,000 --> 00:15:46,960 Speaker 1: if he was still alive. 273 00:15:48,280 --> 00:15:50,040 Speaker 4: What I said in ConA is when I was allowed 274 00:15:50,080 --> 00:15:53,720 Speaker 4: to speak. You know, throughout the whole process, we had 275 00:15:53,760 --> 00:15:56,920 Speaker 4: no input into any of the decisions that were made, 276 00:15:57,680 --> 00:16:02,680 Speaker 4: and you know, yet we suffered the consequences. I didn't 277 00:16:02,720 --> 00:16:06,520 Speaker 4: decide to murder my sister because of a supposed event 278 00:16:06,640 --> 00:16:09,120 Speaker 4: that you know, and there was some conjecture about whether 279 00:16:09,120 --> 00:16:11,120 Speaker 4: Lisa was pregnant or not. I think she was, but 280 00:16:11,280 --> 00:16:14,520 Speaker 4: that's a separate thing. You know, I didn't ask for 281 00:16:14,560 --> 00:16:16,880 Speaker 4: any of this. You know, he had no right to 282 00:16:16,920 --> 00:16:20,640 Speaker 4: do what he did. And you know the ways that 283 00:16:20,640 --> 00:16:23,360 Speaker 4: that has impacted me and my family. 284 00:16:23,520 --> 00:16:25,240 Speaker 2: Some we've worked out, others. 285 00:16:25,320 --> 00:16:28,560 Speaker 4: You know, I might never understand how it's affected me 286 00:16:28,720 --> 00:16:29,800 Speaker 4: or my perspective. 287 00:16:30,720 --> 00:16:34,040 Speaker 2: You know, she had her life ahead of us, and to. 288 00:16:34,040 --> 00:16:36,760 Speaker 4: Think that someone felt that they had the right to 289 00:16:36,840 --> 00:16:39,720 Speaker 4: do that makes me so angry and upset. 290 00:16:40,480 --> 00:16:43,200 Speaker 2: You know, who did he think he was to do that? 291 00:16:43,800 --> 00:16:46,440 Speaker 4: You know, what gave him the right to abuse his partners, 292 00:16:46,600 --> 00:16:51,320 Speaker 4: you know, or commit violence against them? Like I don't 293 00:16:51,320 --> 00:16:54,920 Speaker 4: know whether I talk to him, I probably would just 294 00:16:55,040 --> 00:16:59,000 Speaker 4: refuse to acknowledge his existence in all honesty, Gary, because 295 00:16:59,040 --> 00:17:04,119 Speaker 4: I think acknowledge his existence in some ways legitimizes his behavior, 296 00:17:04,240 --> 00:17:06,960 Speaker 4: especially with what he did to my sister. And I 297 00:17:07,000 --> 00:17:11,480 Speaker 4: will never ever condone violence against another person, as much 298 00:17:11,480 --> 00:17:13,840 Speaker 4: as you might want to do something because you're frustrated, 299 00:17:14,320 --> 00:17:16,760 Speaker 4: thinking about it and carrying it out are too completely 300 00:17:16,960 --> 00:17:21,439 Speaker 4: opposite opposite things. You know, there's that no I know 301 00:17:21,480 --> 00:17:23,160 Speaker 4: what's wrong, and therefore I won't do it. 302 00:17:23,800 --> 00:17:25,120 Speaker 2: But it's just. 303 00:17:27,280 --> 00:17:29,600 Speaker 4: Just he did something he didn't have the right to do, 304 00:17:29,680 --> 00:17:32,160 Speaker 4: and I will never understand why he thought he did. 305 00:17:32,520 --> 00:17:36,160 Speaker 4: And you know, the stress and the angst and the 306 00:17:36,200 --> 00:17:42,240 Speaker 4: pain and the impact that that has had on my family, 307 00:17:42,320 --> 00:17:44,679 Speaker 4: so my husband and my kids as well as you know, 308 00:17:44,960 --> 00:17:46,960 Speaker 4: my siblings and whatnot. 309 00:17:47,600 --> 00:17:49,919 Speaker 2: I don't think that will ever be able to be quantified. 310 00:17:49,920 --> 00:17:51,919 Speaker 4: And I don't think something like that can be for 311 00:17:52,000 --> 00:17:55,040 Speaker 4: any family where a member or a. 312 00:17:54,960 --> 00:17:57,280 Speaker 2: Lot ofd ones gone missing, to be found murdered. I 313 00:17:57,320 --> 00:17:59,920 Speaker 2: just think it's something that's so. 314 00:18:00,160 --> 00:18:05,440 Speaker 4: Intangible and can't be measured or correlated or put in 315 00:18:05,640 --> 00:18:10,400 Speaker 4: put in a way that can be measured objectively. That's 316 00:18:10,600 --> 00:18:13,520 Speaker 4: what makes it so difficult to rest with while you're 317 00:18:13,560 --> 00:18:15,600 Speaker 4: going through the system. It's not like you can say 318 00:18:15,600 --> 00:18:17,400 Speaker 4: I had five of these and now I've got team 319 00:18:17,440 --> 00:18:20,200 Speaker 4: and now I've lost a lot sort of things. Yeah, 320 00:18:21,560 --> 00:18:27,679 Speaker 4: it's just it's hard to verbilize it. But I just 321 00:18:27,840 --> 00:18:31,119 Speaker 4: think that, you know, we're expected to pay for something 322 00:18:31,160 --> 00:18:33,800 Speaker 4: that we didn't necessarily want. 323 00:18:34,000 --> 00:18:37,160 Speaker 2: Or have any input in, and. 324 00:18:38,160 --> 00:18:42,919 Speaker 1: I just yeah, yeah, it's hard to put into words. 325 00:18:43,600 --> 00:18:46,200 Speaker 1: What would you say the families face with the battle 326 00:18:46,200 --> 00:18:48,119 Speaker 1: that you've had has been a battle for you to 327 00:18:48,160 --> 00:18:52,000 Speaker 1: get it to this point about your shame, resilience and 328 00:18:52,359 --> 00:18:57,480 Speaker 1: tenacity to continue and fight for Liesel's memory. What would 329 00:18:57,520 --> 00:19:00,800 Speaker 1: you advise families that might find themselves in similar situations 330 00:19:00,840 --> 00:19:04,080 Speaker 1: where they're battling the system, so to speak. 331 00:19:05,600 --> 00:19:08,399 Speaker 2: You can only do what you can only do, you know, 332 00:19:09,320 --> 00:19:10,040 Speaker 2: I guess you know. 333 00:19:10,440 --> 00:19:13,280 Speaker 4: I always hate it when people said, you know, time 334 00:19:13,320 --> 00:19:14,960 Speaker 4: heals time, doesn't you. 335 00:19:17,840 --> 00:19:17,919 Speaker 1: Know? 336 00:19:18,000 --> 00:19:19,840 Speaker 2: And it is only one day at a time. 337 00:19:20,119 --> 00:19:25,600 Speaker 4: You can't control other people's reactions or decisions. You can 338 00:19:25,600 --> 00:19:29,320 Speaker 4: only do your own. And if that's all that you 339 00:19:29,359 --> 00:19:33,159 Speaker 4: can manage, that's okay. And it doesn't matters whether you know, 340 00:19:34,560 --> 00:19:35,960 Speaker 4: I liken it to a marathon. 341 00:19:36,800 --> 00:19:38,639 Speaker 2: You just keep plugging at it. If you take a 342 00:19:38,680 --> 00:19:40,000 Speaker 2: week off because that's what. 343 00:19:39,920 --> 00:19:41,919 Speaker 4: You need to do for your mental health, and you 344 00:19:41,960 --> 00:19:43,520 Speaker 4: need to step away, that's okay. 345 00:19:43,840 --> 00:19:44,040 Speaker 2: You know. 346 00:19:44,240 --> 00:19:48,720 Speaker 4: It's you're not going to You're not going to forget them. 347 00:19:49,200 --> 00:19:52,080 Speaker 4: It's not going to fall apart. Whatever you're trying to achieve, 348 00:19:52,200 --> 00:19:54,600 Speaker 4: it's not going to go away. It will still be there. 349 00:19:54,640 --> 00:19:57,080 Speaker 4: If you need to take a step away, you know, 350 00:19:57,280 --> 00:20:00,520 Speaker 4: spend time with families that are there, and you know 351 00:20:00,880 --> 00:20:04,360 Speaker 4: your mental health is important, you know, because without that 352 00:20:04,600 --> 00:20:06,720 Speaker 4: you can't just you can't function. 353 00:20:07,080 --> 00:20:12,199 Speaker 1: Yeah, and sadly, I've seen too many families fighting for 354 00:20:12,359 --> 00:20:15,920 Speaker 1: justice in a whole range of different different forms. And 355 00:20:16,320 --> 00:20:19,200 Speaker 1: part of the advice I give them is if you've 356 00:20:19,240 --> 00:20:22,640 Speaker 1: got to step away, a step away, and you articulated 357 00:20:22,640 --> 00:20:25,080 Speaker 1: that very well, that you can step away and take 358 00:20:25,119 --> 00:20:28,159 Speaker 1: a break, and then when you rebuilt yourself, go for 359 00:20:28,240 --> 00:20:32,560 Speaker 1: it again. I also got advice from Mark and Fay Levison, 360 00:20:32,600 --> 00:20:34,320 Speaker 1: who had a battle with a system and had to 361 00:20:34,320 --> 00:20:36,120 Speaker 1: try something a little bit different. 362 00:20:36,400 --> 00:20:39,760 Speaker 3: Out of left field to recover their son. 363 00:20:39,840 --> 00:20:43,440 Speaker 1: And Mark's words and I pass these words on to 364 00:20:43,520 --> 00:20:46,199 Speaker 1: a lot of people, just don't take no for an answer, 365 00:20:46,280 --> 00:20:49,640 Speaker 1: because I would imagine if if you just accepted what 366 00:20:49,800 --> 00:20:53,640 Speaker 1: the system told you, we wouldn't be having this conversation now. 367 00:20:54,000 --> 00:20:56,760 Speaker 2: Probably not. I mean, no is not the worst thing 368 00:20:56,800 --> 00:20:59,600 Speaker 2: that people can say. I've had no a number of 369 00:20:59,680 --> 00:21:01,720 Speaker 2: time and it's like, well, okay, you said no. 370 00:21:02,880 --> 00:21:04,880 Speaker 4: That just means that I need to work out how 371 00:21:04,920 --> 00:21:07,040 Speaker 4: it can happen in a different way. 372 00:21:07,600 --> 00:21:09,400 Speaker 3: There are ways to achieve results. 373 00:21:09,720 --> 00:21:12,720 Speaker 1: Let's I'll just take you briefly through the findings, because 374 00:21:12,720 --> 00:21:15,679 Speaker 1: it is good to hear it said publicly and the 375 00:21:15,720 --> 00:21:18,000 Speaker 1: findings to be published, and this is the findings from 376 00:21:18,040 --> 00:21:21,880 Speaker 1: the coroner in regards to Liesl's death. The person who 377 00:21:21,960 --> 00:21:25,960 Speaker 1: died was Liesel Smith. The date to death Liesel died 378 00:21:26,000 --> 00:21:28,520 Speaker 1: on the nine eighth of August twenty twelve, at some 379 00:21:28,680 --> 00:21:32,879 Speaker 1: time after two point two pm. Place of death. Liesel 380 00:21:32,960 --> 00:21:35,560 Speaker 1: died at or somewhere in the vicinity of the Central 381 00:21:35,600 --> 00:21:39,840 Speaker 1: Coast or Upper Hut regions of New South Wales. The 382 00:21:39,880 --> 00:21:44,679 Speaker 1: cause of death. Liesel's cause of death remains unknown. Manner 383 00:21:44,720 --> 00:21:48,520 Speaker 1: of death. Liesel's death was a homicide. She was killed 384 00:21:48,600 --> 00:21:54,320 Speaker 1: by James Scott Church. So you've got someone in the 385 00:21:54,440 --> 00:22:01,600 Speaker 1: judicial system actually saying he's responsible. So I would imagine 386 00:22:01,640 --> 00:22:07,240 Speaker 1: that it gives you some comfort, not closure, not timehells 387 00:22:07,320 --> 00:22:10,280 Speaker 1: or wounds, but it gives you some acknowledgment that at 388 00:22:10,359 --> 00:22:14,000 Speaker 1: least the person responsible has been held accountable in some way. 389 00:22:15,200 --> 00:22:17,520 Speaker 2: Yeah, it does, because I was thinking about this the 390 00:22:17,600 --> 00:22:18,000 Speaker 2: other day. 391 00:22:18,000 --> 00:22:24,480 Speaker 4: Funny enough, we've got someone named you know, I know personally, 392 00:22:24,720 --> 00:22:27,280 Speaker 4: I know who did it and it was him. And 393 00:22:27,320 --> 00:22:31,320 Speaker 4: I think about families where it's fifteen, twenty, twenty five, 394 00:22:31,520 --> 00:22:34,679 Speaker 4: thirty plus years and they're no closer to having an 395 00:22:34,720 --> 00:22:38,320 Speaker 4: answer in terms of what happened or who did it, 396 00:22:38,560 --> 00:22:43,880 Speaker 4: or you know, any sort of indication that things are 397 00:22:44,080 --> 00:22:45,000 Speaker 4: going to be they're. 398 00:22:44,800 --> 00:22:46,160 Speaker 2: Going to get some sort of answer. 399 00:22:46,800 --> 00:22:50,920 Speaker 4: And I think in terms of that, compared to other people, 400 00:22:52,040 --> 00:22:52,640 Speaker 4: I don't. 401 00:22:52,440 --> 00:22:53,879 Speaker 2: Think we're incredibly lucky. 402 00:22:54,840 --> 00:22:57,920 Speaker 4: I think the police did a fabulous job with what 403 00:22:57,960 --> 00:23:03,639 Speaker 4: they had to contend with. And I I just I 404 00:23:03,680 --> 00:23:06,120 Speaker 4: can't imagine being thirty years down the track and still 405 00:23:06,160 --> 00:23:07,200 Speaker 4: not knowing what the hell. 406 00:23:07,119 --> 00:23:10,600 Speaker 2: Happened to her like that. That would just be worst 407 00:23:10,680 --> 00:23:11,720 Speaker 2: nightmare sort of stuff. 408 00:23:11,800 --> 00:23:17,800 Speaker 4: So I think we are incredibly fortunate that, yes, she 409 00:23:17,960 --> 00:23:22,680 Speaker 4: was missing, but there was circumstances that pointed to who 410 00:23:22,840 --> 00:23:24,120 Speaker 4: who did it based. 411 00:23:23,800 --> 00:23:25,600 Speaker 2: On his own actions, amongst other things. 412 00:23:26,240 --> 00:23:29,879 Speaker 4: And I always think of those that you know, didn't 413 00:23:29,880 --> 00:23:34,560 Speaker 4: have the opportunity that we did, I really just feel 414 00:23:34,560 --> 00:23:34,840 Speaker 4: for them. 415 00:23:34,920 --> 00:23:38,840 Speaker 1: You know, it's very generous of you, given what yourself 416 00:23:38,880 --> 00:23:41,639 Speaker 1: and your family go through. You mentioned the police. That 417 00:23:41,760 --> 00:23:45,320 Speaker 1: coroner also mentioned the police, and again this is in 418 00:23:45,359 --> 00:23:48,600 Speaker 1: the coroner's conclusions, and I'll just read out what she 419 00:23:48,640 --> 00:23:52,240 Speaker 1: said about the police. I not only extend my gratitude 420 00:23:52,240 --> 00:23:55,440 Speaker 1: to them, but I formally commend the technive Sergeants Jones 421 00:23:55,480 --> 00:23:59,040 Speaker 1: Hayden and Erickson and miss Lawson for their work in 422 00:23:59,119 --> 00:24:03,240 Speaker 1: this enormous, multifaceted investigation which enabled the matter to proceed 423 00:24:03,320 --> 00:24:06,520 Speaker 1: the trial and ultimately which has enabled me to make 424 00:24:06,600 --> 00:24:10,919 Speaker 1: my factual findings in this court. I just from a 425 00:24:10,960 --> 00:24:13,640 Speaker 1: personal point of view, I like it when it's good 426 00:24:13,680 --> 00:24:15,960 Speaker 1: work of police that get results. I've got to say 427 00:24:16,000 --> 00:24:18,719 Speaker 1: when I met the police, when it was back at 428 00:24:18,760 --> 00:24:21,840 Speaker 1: the inquest, I met some of the police there and 429 00:24:21,920 --> 00:24:24,720 Speaker 1: I was impressed by how much they cared, which carries 430 00:24:24,720 --> 00:24:28,920 Speaker 1: a big carries a big thing in the way matters 431 00:24:28,960 --> 00:24:32,840 Speaker 1: are investigated. I until they genuinely cared, soquos to the 432 00:24:32,880 --> 00:24:35,080 Speaker 1: police and you have already acknowledged that. 433 00:24:36,240 --> 00:24:36,480 Speaker 2: Yeah. 434 00:24:36,520 --> 00:24:39,239 Speaker 4: And the annework that they had to do and to 435 00:24:39,280 --> 00:24:43,520 Speaker 4: go back and recheck and you know, consistently go back 436 00:24:43,560 --> 00:24:45,919 Speaker 4: and make sure that you know what they'd found or 437 00:24:46,200 --> 00:24:48,520 Speaker 4: what was said to them was true, was just enormous. 438 00:24:48,520 --> 00:24:50,920 Speaker 4: I mean, he kept changing his alibis, he kept changing 439 00:24:51,400 --> 00:24:55,080 Speaker 4: what he was saying. Everything had to be checked and 440 00:24:55,359 --> 00:24:57,600 Speaker 4: double checked again to make sure that you know, there 441 00:24:57,600 --> 00:24:59,760 Speaker 4: were no inconsistencies or discrepancies. 442 00:25:00,160 --> 00:25:02,280 Speaker 2: As you know, you know, they can end up quite. 443 00:25:02,000 --> 00:25:06,120 Speaker 4: Digging in criminal court it was just it was phenomenal, 444 00:25:06,760 --> 00:25:10,480 Speaker 4: just you know, I have the utmost respect for the 445 00:25:10,560 --> 00:25:11,720 Speaker 4: work that they did. 446 00:25:11,760 --> 00:25:13,240 Speaker 2: And then towards the end with. 447 00:25:13,200 --> 00:25:16,960 Speaker 4: The Coronial, in order to try and find where Lisa is, 448 00:25:18,000 --> 00:25:22,320 Speaker 4: they had a specialist do some geo mapping, but unfortunately 449 00:25:22,440 --> 00:25:25,960 Speaker 4: the area is still you know, based on the information 450 00:25:26,000 --> 00:25:29,120 Speaker 4: that they had, it still remains too large to sort 451 00:25:29,119 --> 00:25:33,320 Speaker 4: of pinpoint where she could be. And the terrain there 452 00:25:33,440 --> 00:25:37,800 Speaker 4: is just really rocky and scrubby and whatnot. But it 453 00:25:37,840 --> 00:25:40,440 Speaker 4: was just that extra effort, like they went back again 454 00:25:40,520 --> 00:25:43,600 Speaker 4: to try and you know, using the various techniques to 455 00:25:43,640 --> 00:25:47,080 Speaker 4: try and find her. And they didn't have to, you know, 456 00:25:47,160 --> 00:25:48,840 Speaker 4: they could have just done we've done that and we 457 00:25:48,880 --> 00:25:51,399 Speaker 4: can't find it. But they went back and tried again 458 00:25:51,480 --> 00:25:54,119 Speaker 4: and tried different ways, and you know, obviously technology has 459 00:25:54,160 --> 00:25:55,120 Speaker 4: improved a little bit. 460 00:25:56,440 --> 00:25:57,080 Speaker 2: I'm still in. 461 00:25:57,040 --> 00:26:00,840 Speaker 4: Touch with one of them and have been told that 462 00:26:00,920 --> 00:26:03,560 Speaker 4: point they were up that way to touch base, which 463 00:26:03,600 --> 00:26:08,600 Speaker 4: I really really appreciate. Unfortunately, one of them has left 464 00:26:08,600 --> 00:26:13,040 Speaker 4: the force in part due to this investigation, and you know, 465 00:26:13,600 --> 00:26:16,920 Speaker 4: I just I take my hat off, you know, given 466 00:26:17,320 --> 00:26:21,080 Speaker 4: the dynamics and a few other things that they would 467 00:26:21,080 --> 00:26:22,800 Speaker 4: have had to deal with that. It would have made 468 00:26:22,840 --> 00:26:27,679 Speaker 4: investigating a lot more difficult, but they kept going, you know, 469 00:26:27,960 --> 00:26:31,880 Speaker 4: and to have a police officer or a detective rather 470 00:26:31,960 --> 00:26:39,399 Speaker 4: apologize for not finding his sister is confronting. And you know, 471 00:26:39,560 --> 00:26:41,640 Speaker 4: to be asked to forgive them for something that they 472 00:26:41,680 --> 00:26:45,159 Speaker 4: didn't do wrong is you know the. 473 00:26:46,080 --> 00:26:48,600 Speaker 1: Fact Gerald then that they say that tells me that 474 00:26:48,400 --> 00:26:50,720 Speaker 1: they care and they're the type of people that you 475 00:26:51,160 --> 00:26:54,640 Speaker 1: want on the case. They should take it personally and 476 00:26:54,720 --> 00:26:56,639 Speaker 1: that you know it can come as a cost, but 477 00:26:56,680 --> 00:26:59,840 Speaker 1: that brings a lot of peace to the families knowing 478 00:26:59,840 --> 00:27:03,040 Speaker 1: you've got people that are genuinely trying to find out 479 00:27:03,040 --> 00:27:07,280 Speaker 1: what happened. Hey guys, it's Gary jubilin here. Want to 480 00:27:07,320 --> 00:27:09,760 Speaker 1: get more out of I Catch Killers, then you should 481 00:27:09,760 --> 00:27:13,320 Speaker 1: head over to our new video feed on Spotify where 482 00:27:13,320 --> 00:27:16,720 Speaker 1: you can watch every episode of I Catch Killers. Just 483 00:27:16,800 --> 00:27:20,200 Speaker 1: search for I Catch Killers video in your Spotify app 484 00:27:20,359 --> 00:27:25,760 Speaker 1: and start watching today. The coroner also made a comment 485 00:27:25,800 --> 00:27:28,719 Speaker 1: about the legal team, and I know the nuances of 486 00:27:29,240 --> 00:27:31,680 Speaker 1: any court matter, whether it be a murder trial or 487 00:27:31,720 --> 00:27:34,919 Speaker 1: a coronial inquest, the standard can be set by the 488 00:27:34,920 --> 00:27:38,560 Speaker 1: team that presents it. So I'll just read what the 489 00:27:38,600 --> 00:27:42,720 Speaker 1: coroner said about the council assisting. Finally, I think my 490 00:27:42,800 --> 00:27:47,520 Speaker 1: counselor assisting team Gabriel Bashir, senior counsel Emma Sullivan and 491 00:27:47,600 --> 00:27:51,639 Speaker 1: Peter ava Jones, and they're instructing solicitors Elisa Wood and 492 00:27:51,800 --> 00:27:56,480 Speaker 1: Alex McShane and Vivian Way before them, who diligently assisted 493 00:27:56,520 --> 00:27:59,919 Speaker 1: me and insured the fair and efficient conduct of these proceedings. 494 00:28:00,480 --> 00:28:02,359 Speaker 3: So that's good in itself. 495 00:28:02,400 --> 00:28:05,159 Speaker 1: It sounds like you got the a team for the 496 00:28:05,160 --> 00:28:08,320 Speaker 1: inquest with the police and the council assisting, and it 497 00:28:08,320 --> 00:28:09,320 Speaker 1: does make a difference. 498 00:28:09,359 --> 00:28:11,640 Speaker 3: So your experiences from. 499 00:28:11,440 --> 00:28:13,600 Speaker 2: That they were fabulous. 500 00:28:13,960 --> 00:28:17,159 Speaker 4: They kept in touch, whether it was by email, we 501 00:28:17,240 --> 00:28:19,760 Speaker 4: had casion, we had a few meetings. They explained sort 502 00:28:19,760 --> 00:28:22,119 Speaker 4: of what they were going to do, what they wanted 503 00:28:22,119 --> 00:28:25,560 Speaker 4: to include, what they would go through in presenting the 504 00:28:25,600 --> 00:28:30,240 Speaker 4: case to the coroner, explain why you know they wouldn't 505 00:28:30,280 --> 00:28:31,520 Speaker 4: do X, but they would. 506 00:28:31,280 --> 00:28:34,480 Speaker 2: Do why you know. They were just they were really lovely. 507 00:28:34,720 --> 00:28:38,440 Speaker 4: They were very considerate of how this may be re 508 00:28:38,560 --> 00:28:41,080 Speaker 4: traumatizing for us, especially after what had happened. 509 00:28:41,160 --> 00:28:45,800 Speaker 2: So was the coroner. I just I couldn't fault them. 510 00:28:46,000 --> 00:28:49,560 Speaker 2: It was very much an experience that I don't. 511 00:28:49,400 --> 00:28:51,880 Speaker 4: Want to repeat, but was made a lot easier by 512 00:28:52,800 --> 00:28:55,240 Speaker 4: by the way that they handled it, and you know 513 00:28:55,280 --> 00:28:56,800 Speaker 4: they have my gratitude for that. 514 00:28:57,320 --> 00:29:00,800 Speaker 1: Again, it pleases me to hear that, because that can 515 00:29:00,840 --> 00:29:05,240 Speaker 1: make a horrendous situation that little bit more bearable having 516 00:29:05,720 --> 00:29:08,960 Speaker 1: people like that. On the issue of changing the law. 517 00:29:09,200 --> 00:29:12,240 Speaker 1: This is from the Coroner's recommendation, so we'll just put 518 00:29:12,280 --> 00:29:15,800 Speaker 1: this out there too, that the Attorney General of New 519 00:29:15,840 --> 00:29:19,200 Speaker 1: South Wales refer to the New South Wales Law Reform 520 00:29:19,240 --> 00:29:22,600 Speaker 1: Commission arising from the facts in this case, the question 521 00:29:22,720 --> 00:29:26,080 Speaker 1: of whether the doctrine of abatement operating in the criminal 522 00:29:26,160 --> 00:29:30,120 Speaker 1: justice system should be reformed, for example, to consider whether 523 00:29:30,160 --> 00:29:33,120 Speaker 1: there may be proceedings in which verdicts can be delivered 524 00:29:33,200 --> 00:29:37,720 Speaker 1: in circumstances wherein accused dies during the currency of their trial, 525 00:29:38,120 --> 00:29:41,400 Speaker 1: and to consider in particular the operation of the doctrine 526 00:29:41,480 --> 00:29:45,080 Speaker 1: in circumstances where deliberations of a judge alone or jury 527 00:29:45,120 --> 00:29:48,720 Speaker 1: have concluded. A copy of these finders is to be 528 00:29:48,960 --> 00:29:53,120 Speaker 1: included with the referral. So again cudos to the Coroner, 529 00:29:53,120 --> 00:29:57,480 Speaker 1: Harriet Graham for making those recommendations, because clearly she saw 530 00:29:58,080 --> 00:30:01,680 Speaker 1: something that needed to be fixed. And hopefully those recommendations 531 00:30:01,680 --> 00:30:04,120 Speaker 1: will be put in the place I hope. 532 00:30:04,160 --> 00:30:07,320 Speaker 4: So she did not sound very happy with the fact 533 00:30:07,360 --> 00:30:12,280 Speaker 4: that they had not been implemented, So hopefully they do 534 00:30:12,400 --> 00:30:16,120 Speaker 4: what they're supposed to. My understanding is that the curenter 535 00:30:16,160 --> 00:30:20,400 Speaker 4: does not make recommendations lightly, especially in a case like 536 00:30:20,480 --> 00:30:24,320 Speaker 4: this where there are potential and substantial, far reaching legal 537 00:30:24,400 --> 00:30:26,320 Speaker 4: ramifications and whatnot. 538 00:30:26,960 --> 00:30:28,000 Speaker 2: And she sounded. 539 00:30:27,680 --> 00:30:30,640 Speaker 4: Extremely frustrated that the recommendations of the review had not 540 00:30:30,720 --> 00:30:34,960 Speaker 4: been implemented either. So I would assume, and I don't 541 00:30:35,080 --> 00:30:37,680 Speaker 4: use that word lightly, that if a similar case ever 542 00:30:37,720 --> 00:30:40,480 Speaker 4: came before her and nothing had been done, she would 543 00:30:40,520 --> 00:30:42,120 Speaker 4: have a lot more to say about the fact that 544 00:30:42,400 --> 00:30:45,320 Speaker 4: the recommendations that she had made had not been taken seriously. 545 00:30:45,400 --> 00:30:47,720 Speaker 2: And I would not like to be the person in 546 00:30:47,720 --> 00:30:49,000 Speaker 2: the hot seat at that pointing to me. 547 00:30:49,000 --> 00:30:51,400 Speaker 1: Well, that's good, and that's why it's important to talk 548 00:30:51,400 --> 00:30:54,600 Speaker 1: about it, because sometimes the squeaky wheel is the one 549 00:30:54,600 --> 00:30:58,400 Speaker 1: that gets fixed, and if you keep it in people's faces, 550 00:30:58,560 --> 00:31:02,440 Speaker 1: keep the attention there. Just finishing off for and I 551 00:31:02,480 --> 00:31:06,920 Speaker 1: think you know what you've been through, but it tells 552 00:31:06,960 --> 00:31:10,080 Speaker 1: me that Lisa hasn't been forgotten. How would you like her, 553 00:31:10,400 --> 00:31:13,320 Speaker 1: your sister, to be remembered as what type of person 554 00:31:13,680 --> 00:31:14,120 Speaker 1: was she. 555 00:31:17,080 --> 00:31:17,560 Speaker 2: Personally? 556 00:31:17,640 --> 00:31:20,440 Speaker 4: I'd like her to be remembered as just she could 557 00:31:20,480 --> 00:31:23,240 Speaker 4: have been anyone's sister, she could have been anyone's daughter, 558 00:31:23,840 --> 00:31:27,040 Speaker 4: anyone's cousin. She could have been basically the girl next 559 00:31:27,080 --> 00:31:28,200 Speaker 4: door that. 560 00:31:28,120 --> 00:31:28,920 Speaker 2: You grew up with. 561 00:31:29,680 --> 00:31:34,520 Speaker 4: And as I said in Cornus Court, you know, I 562 00:31:34,560 --> 00:31:37,200 Speaker 4: didn't agree with all of her decisions. I don't have to, 563 00:31:37,600 --> 00:31:40,080 Speaker 4: but they were hers to make, and any one of 564 00:31:40,160 --> 00:31:43,000 Speaker 4: us have made any number of the same decisions and 565 00:31:43,120 --> 00:31:49,480 Speaker 4: not had the consequences that she did, you know, and unfortunately. 566 00:31:48,880 --> 00:31:50,800 Speaker 2: For her, she paid with her life. 567 00:31:51,240 --> 00:31:54,560 Speaker 4: But you always think that it's not gonna you know, 568 00:31:54,880 --> 00:31:56,440 Speaker 4: it's not going to happen to you or one of 569 00:31:56,480 --> 00:32:00,680 Speaker 4: your siblings. I think, you know, a lot was said 570 00:32:00,720 --> 00:32:05,000 Speaker 4: about Lesaline Court. A lot of it was pretty horrendous 571 00:32:05,080 --> 00:32:06,160 Speaker 4: to hear and wasn't. 572 00:32:06,040 --> 00:32:07,120 Speaker 2: Very nice at all. 573 00:32:07,840 --> 00:32:12,680 Speaker 4: But you know, she had away with animals, she loved animals. 574 00:32:12,720 --> 00:32:16,280 Speaker 4: She you know, was kind, she was sensitive, She was 575 00:32:17,160 --> 00:32:20,160 Speaker 4: someone who was trying to work out who she was, 576 00:32:20,320 --> 00:32:22,640 Speaker 4: you know, like any one of us. I guess the 577 00:32:22,640 --> 00:32:25,080 Speaker 4: biggest thing for me for her to be remembered as 578 00:32:25,320 --> 00:32:29,360 Speaker 4: is that. You know, she could have been any as 579 00:32:29,360 --> 00:32:31,720 Speaker 4: I said, anybody's daughter. You know, she could have been 580 00:32:31,760 --> 00:32:36,360 Speaker 4: your daughter or your sister. Don't forget that she's she 581 00:32:36,400 --> 00:32:39,160 Speaker 4: could have been any one of us. It was just 582 00:32:40,040 --> 00:32:42,720 Speaker 4: she happened to be my sister. You know, she happened 583 00:32:42,760 --> 00:32:46,760 Speaker 4: to be my kids, aren't I will always remember her 584 00:32:46,760 --> 00:32:49,600 Speaker 4: as a mischievous kid that got up to things that 585 00:32:49,640 --> 00:32:53,280 Speaker 4: she shouldn't. And you know that I got the brunt 586 00:32:53,280 --> 00:32:55,600 Speaker 4: over sometimes just you know, being a kid, and I 587 00:32:55,640 --> 00:32:59,040 Speaker 4: will treasure those, I really will. I wish I had 588 00:32:59,160 --> 00:33:03,239 Speaker 4: gotten to know her as an adult. Unfortunately that was 589 00:33:03,280 --> 00:33:05,800 Speaker 4: taken away. I don't know what she would have been like. 590 00:33:06,080 --> 00:33:08,840 Speaker 4: I speculate on that and I like to think that 591 00:33:08,880 --> 00:33:12,280 Speaker 4: she would have ended up being really lovely and you know, 592 00:33:12,920 --> 00:33:17,080 Speaker 4: gotten things together. But I'll never know, So you know, 593 00:33:17,120 --> 00:33:19,160 Speaker 4: I've only got what I've got to think of. 594 00:33:20,000 --> 00:33:21,040 Speaker 2: She was who she was. 595 00:33:21,760 --> 00:33:25,440 Speaker 1: Well, I think you've demonstrated the love and your family 596 00:33:25,480 --> 00:33:29,400 Speaker 1: that you had for Lisel and the way that you 597 00:33:29,560 --> 00:33:34,440 Speaker 1: have fought as hard as you can appropriately to get 598 00:33:34,680 --> 00:33:37,800 Speaker 1: some form of justice, and like fol C thus too, 599 00:33:38,720 --> 00:33:42,640 Speaker 1: We've spoken a lot of times and over a long time, 600 00:33:42,680 --> 00:33:45,000 Speaker 1: and I know the battles in the emotional roller coaster 601 00:33:45,160 --> 00:33:47,120 Speaker 1: you've been on, and you should be very proud of 602 00:33:47,160 --> 00:33:51,040 Speaker 1: yourself on what you've done. And taking on the system 603 00:33:51,120 --> 00:33:53,080 Speaker 1: is not easy, and you took on the system. You 604 00:33:53,120 --> 00:33:57,320 Speaker 1: had to change the thinking and you got results and 605 00:33:57,360 --> 00:33:59,920 Speaker 1: you've paved the way for other people if they find 606 00:34:00,040 --> 00:34:03,440 Speaker 1: themselves in this situation. So full full credit to you, 607 00:34:03,520 --> 00:34:06,160 Speaker 1: and you can know that you've done everything you possibly 608 00:34:06,200 --> 00:34:08,520 Speaker 1: could do in memory of your sister. 609 00:34:09,239 --> 00:34:11,799 Speaker 2: Thanks go Well. It certainly didn't happen without your help, 610 00:34:11,840 --> 00:34:12,319 Speaker 2: that's for sure. 611 00:34:12,640 --> 00:34:13,839 Speaker 3: Oh I appreciate that now. 612 00:34:14,200 --> 00:34:17,799 Speaker 1: I was honored to help in any way I could, 613 00:34:17,920 --> 00:34:20,960 Speaker 1: or any little way that I could. So thanks for 614 00:34:21,120 --> 00:34:24,080 Speaker 1: reaching out to me, and you should be proud of yourself. 615 00:34:24,120 --> 00:34:26,240 Speaker 3: And yeah, well done. 616 00:34:26,520 --> 00:34:29,680 Speaker 2: Thanks going well. 617 00:34:29,680 --> 00:34:32,520 Speaker 1: I'm happy for Geraldine and the family that they've been 618 00:34:32,520 --> 00:34:35,680 Speaker 1: given some answers for what happened to Lisa. It's good 619 00:34:35,680 --> 00:34:38,520 Speaker 1: when the legal system accept that laws are not always 620 00:34:38,560 --> 00:34:42,160 Speaker 1: perfect and acknowledged that sometimes they might need to be changed. 621 00:34:42,960 --> 00:34:46,480 Speaker 1: Geraldine is an example for all families battling a rigid 622 00:34:46,640 --> 00:34:49,720 Speaker 1: justice system, and sometimes you just got to keep fighting 623 00:34:49,840 --> 00:34:52,880 Speaker 1: to get the justice you're seeking. And as for James 624 00:34:53,000 --> 00:34:58,480 Speaker 1: church Well, I have no sympathy for him whatsoever. His 625 00:34:58,640 --> 00:35:02,000 Speaker 1: actions destroyed live and he didn't even have the carriage 626 00:35:02,040 --> 00:35:03,040 Speaker 1: to be held accountable 627 00:35:11,480 --> 00:35:11,920 Speaker 4: Mm hm