Speaker 1: The public has had a long held fascination with detectives.
Speaker 1: Detective see a side of life. The average person is
Speaker 1: never exposed her I spent thirty four years as a cop.
Speaker 1: For twenty five of those years, I was catching killers.
Speaker 1: That's what I did for a living. I was a
Speaker 1: homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead,
Speaker 1: I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated.
Speaker 1: The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories
Speaker 1: from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw
Speaker 1: and honest, just like the people I talk to. Some
Speaker 1: of the content and language might be confronting. That's because
Speaker 1: no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged.
Speaker 1: Join me now as I take you into this world. Today,
Speaker 1: I sat down had a chat with recently retired cop
Speaker 1: Gordon Drage. As a crime scene officer, Gordon attended numerous
Speaker 1: murder scenes, drug plantations, and horrific situations such as the
Speaker 1: Dream World tragedy all people died on a theme park
Speaker 1: ride and the Sea World helicopter crash, where two helicopters
Speaker 1: collided midair, killing four passengers. We talked about car chases,
Speaker 1: arresting arm offenders, the time he got shot at, domestic violence, matters,
Speaker 1: sexual assaults, and a whole lot more. It's everything you'd
Speaker 1: expect a police officer to experience after working in South
Speaker 1: Australia and Queensland Police for thirty six years. We also
Speaker 1: spoke about what it was like when he opened the
Speaker 1: first of several barrels containing body parts in the notorious
Speaker 1: Bodies in the Barrel case in South Australia where twelve
Speaker 1: people were murdered, six of which were put in barrels.
Speaker 1: Gordon saw a lot of horrendous things in his career,
Speaker 1: and we also spoke about his own mental breakdown, his
Speaker 1: recovery and what he's doing now supporting the first responders
Speaker 1: and their families. He's had an amazing career and this
Speaker 1: is Gordon's story. Gordon Drage, welcome to I Catch Killers.
Speaker 2: Thank you very much, pleasure to be here.
Speaker 1: Well, I always sitting down, I always enjoy I should say,
Speaker 1: sitting down talking to cops and recently retired cop. When
Speaker 1: did you get out?
Speaker 2: Just over two years and March of twenty three was
Speaker 2: money in date?
Speaker 1: How you finding life outside?
Speaker 2: Busy? This retirement stuff is busy as let me tell you.
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, you retired from Queensland Cops and they've got
Speaker 1: a mandatory retirement at sixty. Yes.
Speaker 2: Yeah, So once I turned sixty at midnight on my
Speaker 2: sixtieth birthday, I lost all my magic powers apparently, and
Speaker 2: I was no good to anyone out.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I forget that experience. It's funny because I don't
Speaker 1: think it is anywhere else in the country.
Speaker 2: I think it's only place in the world. Yeah, it's
Speaker 2: still the most bizarre thing I'm aware of. But they
Speaker 2: lose hundreds and they're suffering a real crisis now because
Speaker 2: there are hundreds of police of my age or coming
Speaker 2: up to my age that have got to go. So
Speaker 2: they're having a massive recruiting issue there and their experience
Speaker 2: is just flooding out the door.
Speaker 1: There's a lot of that experience that you talk about.
Speaker 1: You can't underplay the importance of the experience. We haven't
Speaker 1: had a a good car chase story on my catch
Speaker 1: Kills for a long time. In prepping for this, there
Speaker 1: was a reference to the car chase that you're involved in.
Speaker 1: Do you want to just tell us about that.
Speaker 2: Early in my career, probably my first twelve months, I
Speaker 2: reckon it was probably a praation constable. I'm stationed at
Speaker 2: Gauler outside Adelaide. We get the radio call someone shooting
Speaker 2: as sheep in the area there. So out we go
Speaker 2: on the dirt roads and the back blocks of gawler,
Speaker 2: sheet paddocks everywhere, and we can see across the paddocks
Speaker 2: there's this plume of dust coming out. Sure there's a
Speaker 2: car moving. Maybe that's our man. Off we go, let's
Speaker 2: pull him up, trying to intercept him. But no, off
Speaker 2: he goes, So maybe he's our man. He starts to
Speaker 2: take off. So we're just following this plume of dust,
Speaker 2: and through the dust we come. And at one point
Speaker 2: he's turning corners left and right, and he does get
Speaker 2: to one corner and loses control and he spins a
Speaker 2: book straight into the chitch on the left side of
Speaker 2: the road. So we get out, guns drawn and take
Speaker 2: him out the car. And he said, I'm really sorry.
Speaker 2: I'm really sorry. I didn't hit any when they die. Well, go,
Speaker 2: what are you talking about, oh, I said, Well, he said,
Speaker 2: I don't know what got into me. Said, I just
Speaker 2: put the gun out the window, put a couple of
Speaker 2: shots back towards you. When we had no idea. Thankful
Speaker 2: he didn hit us. But then we said, how does
Speaker 2: this happen? What do you to do? So we went
Speaker 2: back and retraced our steps, and sure enough there was
Speaker 2: his twenty two rifle lying at the side the road.
Speaker 2: He started out the window and we just haven't seen
Speaker 2: it in the plume of smoke.
Speaker 1: So he's leaving shots that you avoid the rest for
Speaker 1: foreign shots.
Speaker 2: We charged him with the lot.
Speaker 1: Well, how do you go at the court? That's that's
Speaker 1: a very serious offense.
Speaker 2: I think he pleaded guilty. I never I never went
Speaker 2: to court on it, so okay, he must have been.
Speaker 2: But it was just but I think that I was saying, now,
Speaker 2: does it count as being shot at if you don't know?
Speaker 1: Well, I suppose if you're too stupid to know, that's
Speaker 1: not that's right. Except you, I'm probably glad you didn't didn't.
Speaker 2: Know, probably just as well. Yeah, we may have to
Speaker 2: shoot back.
Speaker 1: That's and we talked about policing, and it's a tough,
Speaker 1: tough gig. The thing about policing the intensity you can go.
Speaker 1: There's always you're always hyper alert, aren't you, Because you
Speaker 1: can be driving, as you said, out on a country road,
Speaker 1: enjoying yourself having a conversation with your work partner at
Speaker 1: the time, and all of a sudden it can go
Speaker 1: from that to something intense, very much. I don't think
Speaker 1: the public fully appreciate no.
Speaker 2: I remember another while we're talking firearms again in my
Speaker 2: early part of my career, before it even gone to
Speaker 2: gall So we're talking in the first three or four
Speaker 2: months of my career. I'm very, very green. Out of
Speaker 2: the academy. We have gone to a job. Two crews
Speaker 2: have gone. Mum says, the son's lost the plot. He's
Speaker 2: having a mental episode, he's misbehaving badly. He's got a firearm.
Speaker 2: So we pull up at the address and that's why
Speaker 2: two crews have gone. We meet mum at the front
Speaker 2: door at the gate and near letter boxing. It's okay,
Speaker 2: he's got a gun in there. It's a twenty two,
Speaker 2: but it doesn't actually have the bolt thing in that.
Speaker 2: He can't load it, so you know, he's not got
Speaker 2: a loaded fararm. But he's just got this gun he's
Speaker 2: waving around. So then we go and we find him
Speaker 2: in the city in the bedroom and there's this screaming
Speaker 2: girlfriend in the corner off to one side. She's just
Speaker 2: howling in the feetal position in the corner just outside
Speaker 2: the room, but we can't get to her. And looking,
Speaker 2: he said, lying on the bed, and he's got a
Speaker 2: bloody shotgun because that's not twenty two. There's a big
Speaker 2: difference beween it. As you would know, there's a big
Speaker 2: difference between a twenty two and a shotgun. Change and
Speaker 2: we're going, okay, my mum says, he's got no way
Speaker 2: of leading. So there was four of us there, all
Speaker 2: got guns drawn, and not one of us has shot him,
Speaker 2: and he's pointing this thing at us, and he's threatening
Speaker 2: her to kill us, and all of a sudden afterwards,
Speaker 2: it was one of those bizarre things you go through
Speaker 2: your training. So many points a gun at you. I'm
Speaker 2: going to shoot them before they shoot me, and not
Speaker 2: one of us pulled the trigger.
Speaker 1: That tom.
Speaker 2: We eventually resolved it, and when we did find the
Speaker 2: twenty two that mum was talking about, it had the
Speaker 2: bolt in it, It just didn't little the handle. He
Speaker 2: just had a screwdriver so he was able to load it.
Speaker 2: To the moral stories to any new police that might
Speaker 2: be listening, do never trust, never trust what mum tells you.
Speaker 2: Everything's going to be as it seems, and don't go
Speaker 2: in with a preconceived idea that you're not dealing with
Speaker 2: a load of weapon because she said it can't be.
Speaker 1: It's difficult, isn't it. And those split second decisions, and
Speaker 1: unless you're there, you can't. And you see people where
Speaker 1: they are involved in shooting incidents and there's a lot
Speaker 1: of judgment on did they do the right thing, didn't
Speaker 1: they do the right thing? And they're split second decisions.
Speaker 2: And all this stuff. Why didn't they shoot him in
Speaker 2: the Legally, police do not think that good a shot.
Speaker 2: I've been on the firing range, had my target hit
Speaker 2: by one of my colleagues. You know, there's some of
Speaker 2: them really poor shots. And if police shoot something in
Speaker 2: the leg it's usually by accident.
Speaker 1: Well, I think, and I speak to a lot of
Speaker 1: people that are caught up. And as a homicide detective,
Speaker 1: we had to oversee critical incidents. So if police shoot,
Speaker 1: shoot and kill someone or someone dies in the police operation.
Speaker 1: But really the training we get is police in firearm use.
Speaker 1: Unless you're in a specialist tactical squad or whatever where
Speaker 1: you're shooting more regularly, it's not not enough. Really.
Speaker 2: I know some people I worked with it, they hated it.
Speaker 2: I mean they would avoid it like the plague if
Speaker 2: they could. And others myself include I didn't mind it.
Speaker 2: You don't get enough. I mean I don't want what
Speaker 2: the limits are now, But ninety rounds a year or something. Yeah,
Speaker 2: and that's usually structured over one day or a couple of.
Speaker 1: Days, over a day, and then it can be two
Speaker 1: years between your training day or your qualification and the
Speaker 1: next time you do it, because you've got to do
Speaker 1: it in the calendar calendar year.
Speaker 2: That's right.
Speaker 1: But yeah, I've often thought that that we need more
Speaker 1: training and then throwing the tasers, throwing the OC spray
Speaker 1: and everything else that comes in the play. There's a
Speaker 1: lot of decisions to make that it should be a
Speaker 1: muscle reflex and training once a week doesn't create that.
Speaker 2: No, Well, we were having training, I think we get
Speaker 2: once a year. We'd have a three day block. First
Speaker 2: day would be maybe a bit of legal stuff, and
Speaker 2: then you'd be doing your hands a hand, handcuffing techniques,
Speaker 2: whatever's topical at the time, trying to disarm. Then tasers.
Speaker 2: The group would do taser for one half of the
Speaker 2: shift and the others would be on the range doing
Speaker 2: the shooting, and then you swap over at lunchtime. So
Speaker 2: then whoever's doing was doing the live fire in the
Speaker 2: morning will do the taser in the afternoon, and that
Speaker 2: was it. That's it then for as you say, potentially
Speaker 2: eighteen months at least before you get around again if
Speaker 2: need be.
Speaker 1: And the difference, like I did tactical policing where you're
Speaker 1: shooting a minimum once a month or if not more,
Speaker 1: and you could also sit on the range and just
Speaker 1: fire rounds off and so you felt comfortable with the firearm.
Speaker 1: But yeah, I think that is something that could could
Speaker 1: be improved in policing. What about most people when they
Speaker 1: talk about bear experiences early days in uniform domestic violence
Speaker 1: situations gow into domestics, Was that something that you were
Speaker 1: confronted with?
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, all the time. Because I was working in
Speaker 2: the northern sumbers of Adelaide, so it was the every
Speaker 2: sea would have them tougher part to working class people,
Speaker 2: often lower socio economic occupants. And now I lived out
Speaker 2: there too, so I include myself in these groups. So
Speaker 2: some of them, of course had very strained relationships and
Speaker 2: we get called those quite frequently. But back then when
Speaker 2: I first started way back in the late eighties, DV
Speaker 2: wasn't known as DV. That was just a domestic dispute
Speaker 2: and argument or whatever they've now called it domestic violence.
Speaker 2: But I remember going to one Elizabeth and that was
Speaker 2: that was horrendous. We went and saw this lady and
Speaker 2: as you do, you separate the male and the female.
Speaker 2: I had the mail with me getting his version of
Speaker 2: what was going on, and my partners then come in
Speaker 2: and said, I need to see you. And he was
Speaker 2: talking to the female in the relationship and he said,
Speaker 2: she's just told me the poured bleach over. We could
Speaker 2: swell bleach. When we walked in, he's poured bleach over
Speaker 2: and he hit her with a broom. He really injured
Speaker 2: her arm, and he said during the whole process, he's
Speaker 2: actually he's raped her. Rape in marriage. Oh gee said
Speaker 2: Then we had to call the cib in and all
Speaker 2: those things, and turned out that she actually had a
Speaker 2: broken arm. She had her arm broken, bleach poured over,
Speaker 2: and had been raped, and she revealed a rape some
Speaker 2: days prior. And when it went to court, the magistrate
Speaker 2: just made the front page of the papers because in
Speaker 2: the whatever it was now in nineteen eighty eight or nine.
Speaker 2: Perhaps he had said during his summing up, and I'm
Speaker 2: sure he didn't mean it to like it, But what
Speaker 2: the media grabbed on was when he said, sometimes a
Speaker 2: male a man might need to persuade his wife a
Speaker 2: little bit yet a little bit of cadeeling, a bit
Speaker 2: of coercing into sexual activity, thinking, isn't it so you
Speaker 2: can just imagine that she had her arm broken and yeah,
Speaker 2: and she had bleach brought over. That's not that's not
Speaker 2: sort of subtle curdueling. It's doesn't fall into anybody's definitely
Speaker 2: a full play.
Speaker 1: No, But look, we're improving, not definitely the way that
Speaker 1: domestic violence is managed, but we're also seeing the ramifications
Speaker 1: the amount of people were a killed as a result
Speaker 1: of domestic violence situations, and that it's quite confronting and
Speaker 1: it's very difficult early in your policing career to come
Speaker 1: in there and speak with authority, and that you're talking
Speaker 1: to people who are probably the same age as your
Speaker 1: parents all around that, and you're trying to give them
Speaker 1: relationships advice when you're trying to sort that out yourself.
Speaker 2: Yeah, one thing I was very grateful for when I
Speaker 2: went to apply for the South Australian Police straight from school.
Speaker 2: They knocked me back and I was devastated. Only if
Speaker 2: I wanted to be a copper. I had uncle who
Speaker 2: was a bobby in England, and I don't know why,
Speaker 2: just what always wanted to be a copper. There was
Speaker 2: no other coppers in my family apart from English uncle.
Speaker 2: So I got knocked back and they say, now we
Speaker 2: have to go go off and get some life experience.
Speaker 2: I thought, oh terrible, Say anyway, that's what I did.
Speaker 2: I went off and by the time I came back
Speaker 2: to them, I'd had an overseas sort of trip. I've
Speaker 2: been in England for a year. I'd come back. I
Speaker 2: was working in the factory, working with the whole owns
Speaker 2: of different people. And then I've also got married and
Speaker 2: had my first daughter was born just before I went
Speaker 2: and went out of the academy, and and that that
Speaker 2: served me in good stead. Because when you get to
Speaker 2: these things, one of the first things I'll say to
Speaker 2: you is what would you know? Are you married?
Speaker 1: Yes?
Speaker 2: I am your kids yes, So I can answer yes
Speaker 2: to most of their most of the things I try
Speaker 2: and tear me down off for somewhat they formed yeah,
Speaker 2: I do have I do have kids. I know they
Speaker 2: can drive you crazy, but you can't be beating the
Speaker 2: wife up for that sort of stuff, and so it
Speaker 2: does help. I think having life experience was beneficial one
Speaker 2: hundred percent agree. There's exceptions that people have joined straight
Speaker 2: from school and they've made stellar careers. But I always
Speaker 2: thought that it served well with people who've got a
Speaker 2: little bit of life experience and spending a couple of
Speaker 2: years out of school. So you get not going straight
Speaker 2: from school in the cops and tell us.
Speaker 1: About your career. Just give us a brief overview of
Speaker 1: more work than what you did.
Speaker 2: I've had a very fortunate career. I've been very very
Speaker 2: lucky to be in maybe the wrong place at the
Speaker 2: right time or the wrong right place at the wrong time,
Speaker 2: depending I look at these things perspective. I started my
Speaker 2: career in nineteen eighty six. I went into the police
Speaker 2: Academy in South Australia, came out in eighty seven. I
Speaker 2: did fourteen and a half years in South Australia and
Speaker 2: then when Queensland were recruiting a lot of people, I
Speaker 2: took the chance then to move to Queensland because my
Speaker 2: eldest daughter was about to start high school. It was
Speaker 2: just timing for the kids. Well, if they're going to go.
Speaker 2: South Australia financially was going very bad at that stage
Speaker 2: and they closed thirty five state schools a year before
Speaker 2: the year I left, and stuff like that. So it
Speaker 2: just seemed like it was better opportunities in Queensland for them.
Speaker 2: So we said, if we're going to go, let's go.
Speaker 2: And so that's what we did when we come up
Speaker 2: to Queensland. But I started in friendsic because I'd only
Speaker 2: reasonably reasonably newly married when I first joined South Australia.
Speaker 2: They I've always had an interest in photography. It was
Speaker 2: a keen photographer ever since I was about fourteen. I
Speaker 2: needed to earn more money because the policing in today's
Speaker 2: probably not so bad, but back then the police pay
Speaker 2: was pretty ordinary. So I thought, I'm going to earn
Speaker 2: more money and I looked around To get more money,
Speaker 2: I had to get more rank, so I needed to
Speaker 2: get some stripes. How do I get stripes? I look
Speaker 2: around that, okay, we're going to get promoted. Getting promoted
Speaker 2: in general, dudis was really hard because you've got the
Speaker 2: pyramid effects and you're down in the bottom the basement,
Speaker 2: if you like, of the pyramid. You haven't even got
Speaker 2: to the top. So yeah, the further you go up.
Speaker 2: So I look around. We've got to specialize, and I thought,
Speaker 2: what do I want to specialize in? And then I
Speaker 2: saw the course advertised for forensics and crime, saying I
Speaker 2: wants taking photos. I could probably do that. So I
Speaker 2: applied and got on the course and did pretty well
Speaker 2: on the course, and then I thought, I'll just have
Speaker 2: it in my back pocket ready for when I do
Speaker 2: want to have enough general duties. Totally sick of it,
Speaker 2: I'll do it then. So I went back to the
Speaker 2: station and the senior sergeant at that stage she was
Speaker 2: doing rosters and things, and we said, he said, you're
Speaker 2: going off too, forensics in twenty eight days. What No, no, no, no,
Speaker 2: that's not the plan. He said, Well no, he said,
Speaker 2: you can't do the course. You can't, you can't go
Speaker 2: and look, well, i'll be blunting. You said you can't
Speaker 2: do the bloody course and not go, He said, especially
Speaker 2: when you scored as well as you did. So because
Speaker 2: I think I may have topped the course, but I'm
Speaker 2: not a brag, but I did did pretty well, and
Speaker 2: he said, no, you were to go. That's it. That's
Speaker 2: that's how it is. You can't do the course, not go,
Speaker 2: You're you're bloody going, Okay, So off I went.
Speaker 1: Changed the direction it did.
Speaker 2: So then I find myself on the train trekking into
Speaker 2: Adelaide and stuff for two or three years. And then
Speaker 2: in my first year or so of being in Adelaide
Speaker 2: working there, they asked me to go and relieve over
Speaker 2: the forensic second or the physical evidence section, doing more
Speaker 2: major crimes than the homicides and those sorts of things.
Speaker 2: So I said, oh, go, we go at that and
Speaker 2: went across there. Originally I think it was going to
Speaker 2: be for three weeks. I never left. Yeah, they sort
Speaker 2: they kept me and we got stuck into doing comparison
Speaker 2: work and murders. I traveled all over the state with it,
Speaker 2: and then I actually got a bit burnt out, I
Speaker 2: suppose towards the early mid part of nineteen ninety five.
Speaker 2: So then they had a position advertised for the country
Speaker 2: crime scene people at Kadena on New York Peninsula, which
Speaker 2: is that little boot like a tiny little miniature Italy
Speaker 2: when you look at Mappo South Australia, the little boot.
Speaker 2: So I went and did. I went, did about four
Speaker 2: years there until the girls got to the stage where
Speaker 2: the eldest was going to start high school? What are
Speaker 2: we going to do? Went to Queensland. That's it. Given
Speaker 2: up on my forensic career. That was fine. I've had
Speaker 2: a pretty good run with it. And then when I
Speaker 2: came to Queensland, went to general duties a Broadbeach and
Speaker 2: had some interesting jobs there, got some good fun. Cordon
Speaker 2: armed robber at gun point with his bag of money
Speaker 2: and his shotguns still on the front seat.
Speaker 1: Those were the days when they still chase people. It
Speaker 1: was literally cops and robbers when the banks had been robbed.
Speaker 2: Wasn't it.
Speaker 1: It really was chasing the bad guys. They had their
Speaker 1: sawn off shotgun, bag of cash and they're usually a
Speaker 1: balaclava or something.
Speaker 2: It was a very active arm Robert at the time
Speaker 2: going around knocking off banks all over the Gold Coast.
Speaker 2: And one day he's done this robbery at the bank
Speaker 2: and then he's sped down past the speed camera in
Speaker 2: his stolen car. So speed camera guy gets on the radio.
Speaker 2: So I've just had this car come through one hundred
Speaker 2: and twenty of whatever used to go in this way,
Speaker 2: and it turns out it's the same one that's just
Speaker 2: left the bank. And we were just at the broad
Speaker 2: Beach police station doing typing or something, and we're listening
Speaker 2: to this chase sort of coming in and sure enough
Speaker 2: it's coming straight towards us. So my partner then, who
Speaker 2: was actually Australia, let's go if we go? So where
Speaker 2: we go. I'm in the passenger seat. I'm trying to
Speaker 2: call the chase. We end up being the lead car mysteriously,
Speaker 2: and of course your how that was, but Chris could drive.
Speaker 1: Sometimes you find yourself in the wrong spot, so.
Speaker 2: Chris could drive. So off we went, and we went
Speaker 2: the wrong way down some one way streets and things,
Speaker 2: and yeah, I'm trying to read the signs of the
Speaker 2: street signs where we're going as you're calling the chase,
Speaker 2: and of course I get the way he turns down
Speaker 2: the one street doesn't have a street sign. That's one
Speaker 2: only time I've sworn on the radio, so bloody sign.
Speaker 1: But it's so funny you say that, because I think
Speaker 1: a lot of operational police have had that experience when
Speaker 1: you're in the chain and yeah, something driving there's a
Speaker 1: bit of pressure, but if you're calling the chase as well,
Speaker 1: or trying to pick the streets and all that a
Speaker 1: lot of pressure it can be. And like an armed
Speaker 1: robber from it's done the stick up on the bank,
Speaker 1: they don't give up easily. So did you did you
Speaker 1: catch him?
Speaker 2: Yeah? He went down to the end on like the
Speaker 2: Gold Coast Highway, so it's quite a busy road. And
Speaker 2: then he's come up towards red traffic lights. No surprise
Speaker 2: if you live on the Gold Coast that we've got
Speaker 2: red traffic lights and the traffic's starting to build up.
Speaker 2: So he's just done the you turn across the traffic
Speaker 2: islands right and gone to turn and go back the
Speaker 2: other way. So my palm driver at the time, Chris,
Speaker 2: he's done the same thing across we've gone and bugging
Speaker 2: me dead. We've crashed into the right side of his
Speaker 2: car and pushed him into a somebody's front fence up
Speaker 2: on the Kirby's gone and our police cars sitting up
Speaker 2: against his drivers door, so he can't even get out.
Speaker 2: So we've jumped out around the other side and near
Speaker 2: he's sitting in the cars, shaken and stirred. With his
Speaker 2: bag full of money and the shotgun on the front seat.
Speaker 2: So he's been arrested at gunpoint with probably does at
Speaker 2: other police. I didn't lost count because you get that,
Speaker 2: you get the blue haze, you've got that down, the
Speaker 2: fixed vision that comes on.
Speaker 1: How how was the adrenaline from your point of view,
Speaker 1: seriously at the knee the type of chasers, it's so intense.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you're seriously week at the knees. You get when
Speaker 2: you when you actually stop, you've got him in cuffs.
Speaker 2: You think, okay, do you think my needs are shaking?
Speaker 2: I've literally got wobbly legs because the adrenaline is just dumped.
Speaker 1: And you yeah, the first couple of times you notice
Speaker 1: that and you've become aware of it and have an
Speaker 1: expectation that it's going to be the case. But yeah,
Speaker 1: they were. They were wild times and when the banks
Speaker 1: are being robbed. But you think, now if someone were
Speaker 1: in recording in Sydney, but if someone walking into a
Speaker 1: bank in Sydney now with a gun and be on
Speaker 1: the front page of the paper, it was just a regular,
Speaker 1: regular occurrence.
Speaker 2: If they got money from banking, that would be surprising.
Speaker 2: Banks don't even kick case like they used to.
Speaker 1: Catch up with some old notorious bank robbers and all
Speaker 1: that noways Jake. If you guys came out of a
Speaker 1: tire and stam into a bank, they'd want your password.
Speaker 1: You'd have to download a napp.
Speaker 2: And I'm sorry we don't have cashier.
Speaker 1: Yeah. All the frauds is are the ones that are
Speaker 1: making the goal of it.
Speaker 2: Can order now, we can order some cash for but
Speaker 2: we will come back tomorrow at nine o'clock. How much
Speaker 2: you need?
Speaker 1: So okay? That gives us a sort of sense of
Speaker 1: your career and the thirty six years all up and
Speaker 1: split fairly evenly between South Australia and the Queensland. As
Speaker 1: a crime scene officer, how would you describe your wrap?
Speaker 1: Just describe your wroth for people. You know, we watch
Speaker 1: CSI and we have all different different views. Just explain
Speaker 1: what your job is.
Speaker 2: That's probably the best way of doing it. CSI is
Speaker 2: what people associate with. We do the photography, We collect bloods, fingerprints.
Speaker 2: I did fingerprinting for Schumart Comparisons. Timemark comparisons, collect bloods, hair,
Speaker 2: all those bits and pieces along the way, Depending on
Speaker 2: the nature of the job, would depend how in depth
Speaker 2: you will go with that sort of stuff, tape, lifting
Speaker 2: of bodies and objects and things. And then when I
Speaker 2: was in South Australia doing the physical fits and things,
Speaker 2: stuff that's just broken or smash, putting your headlights together,
Speaker 2: tail lights strong, identify cars, stuff like that. All that
Speaker 2: CSI stuff is sort of.
Speaker 1: What we did and it's crucial to an investigation. Looking
Speaker 1: at from a homicide detective's point of view, some of
Speaker 1: the most crucial pieces of evidence we got was from
Speaker 1: the crime scene people and yeah, like you said, footprints
Speaker 1: and all that. I recall someone was bashed to death,
Speaker 1: kicked and kicked, kicked in the head and the shoe
Speaker 1: print was left on the forehead of the victim and
Speaker 1: that match identically to the footprint of the shoe. Yeah,
Speaker 1: so things like that did if you like that.
Speaker 2: Potestrians you get hit by cars that have Carl emblems
Speaker 2: in their leads is crucial.
Speaker 1: Now fairly early in your scene, I think you described
Speaker 1: it as your first murder and it was one that
Speaker 1: I've spoken to you before we sat down where DNA
Speaker 1: came into play. It was the murder of Mavis Pitt,
Speaker 1: a seventy five year old. Do you want to tell
Speaker 1: us the circumstances surrounding that, because it sounded like a
Speaker 1: horrendous one.
Speaker 2: It was. It still sicks to me because my first one,
Speaker 2: partly because of the circumstances. Mavis was a seventy five
Speaker 2: year old lady who was just living alone, you know,
Speaker 2: a little her old style house in Pennington in Adelaide's
Speaker 2: western suburbs. Yes, minding her own business was you have
Speaker 2: tea coffee with her neighbors, and quite regularly was a
Speaker 2: little the genuine lovely, little old lady from running to gather.
Speaker 2: And this was one that was like a stranger. Stranger
Speaker 2: murder most of them people, you know, as we know
Speaker 2: that there's usually I think there's a high percentage known
Speaker 2: to the victims and stuff like that. So she was
Speaker 2: killed by as it turned out, we went in and
Speaker 2: found her on the laundry floor with her lower clothes
Speaker 2: missing and hitched up, and she had this absolute look
Speaker 2: of terror on her face that's still stuck looked in.
Speaker 2: There was this just if you can imagine an elderly
Speaker 2: person who's just been completely shocked, I've just their eyes
Speaker 2: are wide open and they've got this sort of excla
Speaker 2: explained look on their face. That was her lying dead
Speaker 2: on her laundry floor. On her back. We found a hose,
Speaker 2: the connection from a garden hose in the sink that
Speaker 2: also became relevant. So we prosed that process the whole
Speaker 2: scene and it turned out that the offender was a fellow,
Speaker 2: David Jarrett. He was a young young man who was
Speaker 2: involved in cleaning her roof. She had had a roof
Speaker 2: repainted not that many months before, and he'd sort of
Speaker 2: befriended her then because he was there for him and
Speaker 2: his team of workmates were there for two or three days.
Speaker 2: His job was to clean the roofs and the others
Speaker 2: with the garp and paint it. So one of the
Speaker 2: things when we take lifted her body, there was a
Speaker 2: lot of these different little tiny globs of paint that
Speaker 2: came up, but they were only gray greens and sort
Speaker 2: of orangey ochre color. Of course, we now know.
Speaker 1: That they were the paint colors of the Can you
Speaker 1: explain the swabbing the body? I know what you're talking about.
Speaker 2: For all, that's a tape lift is where and back
Speaker 2: in those days we were literally using stick like sticky tape,
Speaker 2: just twenty mil wire I suppose, and we would get
Speaker 2: that and we would just take that over the body,
Speaker 2: clothes and skin whatever we could do the entire surface
Speaker 2: of the body, and when it stopped being sticky, we
Speaker 2: then well, just before it wuld stop being sticky, we'd
Speaker 2: then put them on a glass micro shop slide and
Speaker 2: we would sometimes take dozens and dozens and dozens of
Speaker 2: these marks shop slides back and give them to the
Speaker 2: frensic scientists and they would look over them and that's
Speaker 2: when they found these globules of paints. Now, are you
Speaker 2: looking for a foreign object, looking for anything? Yeah, you
Speaker 2: might be a stray here. In this case, it was
Speaker 2: a little bits of paint and stuff, but there was
Speaker 2: at the post mortem they also do you know, vaginal
Speaker 2: swabs and they take swabs from the mouth and things
Speaker 2: like that as part of the forensic examination at demortuary.
Speaker 1: And from the vaginal swabs. I believe with this particular
Speaker 1: case there was semen.
Speaker 2: Yes, yep, so that that gave them something to work
Speaker 2: with and there was. It turned out when the police
Speaker 2: did their investigation of the detectives, they had I think
Speaker 2: they had sixteen or seventeen suspects in the end, some
Speaker 2: of them were the gang that worked on the roofs
Speaker 2: and others were just neighbors and people. So they went
Speaker 2: and got voluntary samples from most of them and including
Speaker 2: the suspect, and it turned out he was a he
Speaker 2: was a match. It was one of the first times
Speaker 2: I think South Throw had DNA used in a criminal
Speaker 2: trial because it was still quite new back then, were
Speaker 2: talking nineteen ninety two, I think from memory, so we
Speaker 2: were still quite new in South Australia with that, and
Speaker 2: they were using a PCR method, which at the time
Speaker 2: I think South Australia was one of the only states
Speaker 2: that was doing the PCR method. Other states were using
Speaker 2: other amplifications, a different RF something or other, and South
Speaker 2: Throw it was a bit groundbreaking in that sense.
Speaker 1: That they stuck with. Can you explain PCR to.
Speaker 2: PCR is well, in very much Layman's terms, PCR, I
Speaker 2: think polymace polymace chain reaction. They essentially take a small
Speaker 2: small cell or groups of cells and they just replicate it.
Speaker 2: They basically clone it a bit like we all know
Speaker 2: DNA and Dolly the Sheep from all those years ago.
Speaker 2: We were all going to be the same, all supposed
Speaker 2: to look the same, apparently, so that's what certainly got.
Speaker 2: They're using that technology, they're able to multiply it until
Speaker 2: they get enough, or they call it amplification, so but
Speaker 2: they amplify it to the point where it's then a
Speaker 2: suitable sized forum for analysis, because you can't allies just
Speaker 2: one or two selves of decent quantity to be more accurate.
Speaker 1: It really was a game changer, wasn't it.
Speaker 2: It has been huge, Yeah, and it's lucky to be
Speaker 2: there in those probably called the golden ears of forensics.
Speaker 1: For a lot of it, it made your job even
Speaker 1: more crucial, like if you missed opportunities to gather in
Speaker 1: DNA from crime scenes. But the way you describe that
Speaker 1: crime and I know it's stuck with you, and it
Speaker 1: reminds me very similar in a lot of the facts
Speaker 1: from there. A case I did very early in my
Speaker 1: homicide career was the murder of Eileine Cantley. She was
Speaker 1: in her eighties and she was sexually soulted in the home.
Speaker 1: And I still remember that crime scene and the way
Speaker 1: that you've described the victim in the one you're talking about, Yeah,
Speaker 1: they're the vulnerable people, and it's something about something about
Speaker 1: seeing someone in those circumstances and indeed, a crime of
Speaker 1: such violence and such a senseless crime that's been committed.
Speaker 2: I find too that they're also the same group that's
Speaker 2: the most disturbed when even have something as simple as
Speaker 2: I say simple for me, it's fairly straightforward, it's a burglary.
Speaker 2: The amount of times I've been to elderly folks houses,
Speaker 2: particularly ladies who have had their undies draw rifle through. Yeah,
Speaker 2: when the cook will just tip out, you know, the
Speaker 2: running through their undies. That's like a personal violation for them.
Speaker 2: They really that knocks them around for a long time. Yeah,
Speaker 2: it really is quite horrendous.
Speaker 1: So yeah, yeah, it's just there's something wrong when we
Speaker 1: can't protect our elderly and the vulnerable, vulnerable like that.
Speaker 1: With this particular case with Isiland, can't lay the offender.
Speaker 1: PRIVATEA was his surname, and we caught him on DNA
Speaker 1: and I think that would have been about ninety three
Speaker 1: to ninety four, and that was the first time that
Speaker 1: I'd been involved in a case where DNA and it
Speaker 1: was really it was confronting from a police point of view,
Speaker 1: well not confronting, but it was something that was hard
Speaker 1: to comprehend at first, when we were told that the
Speaker 1: seaman matches with this person, we insisted on going down
Speaker 1: the lab and let them explain it to us, because
Speaker 1: we're going what so basically on the information you're providing
Speaker 1: this that's giving us enough to arrest and charge this
Speaker 1: person yet most definitely, And then they talk about the
Speaker 1: statistical analysis, the.
Speaker 2: Coming one in eight hundred and ninety thousand.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, but yeah, that's definite game changer. And I
Speaker 1: like the strategy that you're talking about in the murder
Speaker 1: of Mavis Pit of anyone involved that came into contact
Speaker 1: with the premises and voluntary the supply of your DNA
Speaker 1: and it puts the puts the pressure on the offender.
Speaker 2: Then it does, and of course he did volunteer a sample. Yeah,
Speaker 2: but that became the subject of great debate and appeal
Speaker 2: and stuff. A couple of years later, I've learned, but
Speaker 2: he's still in jail our I believe. I think he's
Speaker 2: had a couple of parole applications refused. But I Believedveri
Speaker 2: Jarrett is still in jail in Adelaide.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, I did a deep dive into it before
Speaker 1: sitting down and talking with you, and I saw that
Speaker 1: appeal and also his attempt to get parole. But yeah,
Speaker 1: a crime like that, Yeah, I've got an open mind
Speaker 1: on how people should be treated in prison, and you
Speaker 1: know all about rehabilitation, but crimes like that, I think
Speaker 1: society needs to be protected from those type of people.
Speaker 1: Been your first murder scene that you worked on and
Speaker 1: got involved, how did your process it internally? Like emotionally?
Speaker 2: Oh, it was so much happening at that stage. I
Speaker 2: don't think I really had time to think about it.
Speaker 2: Is that many years ago now, I really can't recall
Speaker 2: exactly what was going on. I know it was. We've
Speaker 2: used put in a lot of long hours back in
Speaker 2: South Australia. Back in those days, there was nothing to
Speaker 2: spend twenty four hours straight. You would work the scene
Speaker 2: until you pretty much just couldn't stay awakening on there
Speaker 2: plenty of plenty of my colleagues we would they've paid
Speaker 2: for entire verr anders and things from some of these murders.
Speaker 2: They would, you know, they say, oh this this roof,
Speaker 2: this shed was paid for by.
Speaker 1: Some it's cops humor. But I understand that there's people
Speaker 1: that I work with I couldn't afford this extension or
Speaker 1: that it was.
Speaker 2: More than for in a particular murd the case, well,
Speaker 2: we have a big case. So that's how we worked.
Speaker 2: We used to just roll. And these days now, of
Speaker 2: course they stop you after twelve or fourteen hours and
Speaker 2: then put a guard on them. You'll go home and
Speaker 2: stead and come back. But in those days it wasn't
Speaker 2: uncommon to work straight through. I don't think we worked
Speaker 2: that one into the early morning. I think that was
Speaker 2: once we got her body out. That was we're at
Speaker 2: a locked the house down and come back the following
Speaker 2: day to do a bit more with it. Because if
Speaker 2: I recall correctly, I think I've got the call mid morning,
Speaker 2: ten o'clockish on the pager. Back then we had pages.
Speaker 2: It was fore mobile phones were common. So if you're
Speaker 2: on call, you had the pager, which is a little
Speaker 2: electric led would come up and so you call the office.
Speaker 2: So you ring, you ring the call center, and some
Speaker 2: anonymous voice would just say, oh, I've got this message
Speaker 2: for you. It says do this and do that. Because
Speaker 2: it was a third party company they were using, so
Speaker 2: you just ring the paging company and they would say
Speaker 2: the messages call the office or call this number, would
Speaker 2: do this, and they would never tell them exactly what
Speaker 2: was about, so then you ring track them down from
Speaker 2: the landline.
Speaker 1: I read the cord working as a station constable in
Speaker 1: uniform detectives that always hand you a number if if
Speaker 1: you knew this were on this number invariable. It was
Speaker 1: the licensed premises down the road. And I think I
Speaker 1: can still remember the number of some of those licensed
Speaker 1: premises because I had to ring it so often. But
Speaker 1: the world was a different, different place. I've openly said
Speaker 1: that when people talk about the hardest job in the cops,
Speaker 1: and yeah, there's a whole range of cops. You know,
Speaker 1: it can be from tactical policing, criminal investigation, general duties
Speaker 1: all have to it's a heavy weight that they've got
Speaker 1: to carry with their responsibility. But I honestly saying I've
Speaker 1: said it to every crime scene officer I've had on
Speaker 1: the podcast, that I reckon crime scene is the hardest
Speaker 1: gig in the cops in that the long hours that
Speaker 1: you described, uncomfortable situations like I used to hate the
Speaker 1: midnight callouts on the cold winter's night and you go,
Speaker 1: you a crime scene and I'm standing there shivering taking notes,
Speaker 1: and then we finish what the work we need to
Speaker 1: do there, then the crime scene left there for the
Speaker 1: next ten hours, going through and what it can be
Speaker 1: a horrendous location.
Speaker 2: To oh, they can be awful thing and wearing those
Speaker 2: suits like the actual forensic suits, the hoods and the
Speaker 2: whole bit. In South Australia it wasn't as bad, I
Speaker 2: mean something. You to wear them in summer and you
Speaker 2: still sweat. But in Queensland they are just oppressive. Queensland
Speaker 2: somehow it's just horrible because they don't breathe, because they're
Speaker 2: designed not to breathe, so you literally end up with
Speaker 2: you you're sweating out leases of water inside these suits.
Speaker 2: You take them off and they're literally almost full of water.
Speaker 2: They've got elastic cuffs and on the ankles.
Speaker 1: I think we've come to terms with the importance of
Speaker 1: crime scene too, like it is paramount in investigations now.
Speaker 1: I'm not sure I've been able to touch too long
Speaker 1: to know whether it's but is it being properly resourced?
Speaker 2: I think so, certainly it seems at the go Coast
Speaker 2: at the minute, in particular the scenes I've been of late,
Speaker 2: the police have been extra cautious because they had one
Speaker 2: where a fellow was found just east in a hotel room,
Speaker 2: a local hotel, and that one I think didn't embarrass him.
Speaker 2: I mean, he's the man's been charged with that since
Speaker 2: within a few days it was, But the concern was
Speaker 2: the next one. We enter that the police have got
Speaker 2: a crime scene set up and they were all wearing
Speaker 2: suits and the friendship suits, and we go, this looks
Speaker 2: a bit over killing and go no after then, Irang incident.
Speaker 2: We're being extra careful, so you get a little wake
Speaker 2: up call every once in a while, but they seem
Speaker 2: to be very quick at the moment now to declare
Speaker 2: a crime scene and keep everyone out, which is the
Speaker 2: safest option.
Speaker 1: Of course, because the contamination is a big thing, and
Speaker 1: this is what until you sort of break it down,
Speaker 1: you don't really appreciate the importance of it. And invariably
Speaker 1: if mistakes are made, that comes out at the court
Speaker 1: matter when you're being cross examined. But the contamination in
Speaker 1: crime scenes too, like as a detective, a detective might
Speaker 1: go to the crime scene, then speak to the offender
Speaker 1: and then the offender will be examined and they've got
Speaker 1: DNA from the crime scene and there's potential contamination from
Speaker 1: the detective there.
Speaker 2: That's right. Well, the DNA tally you become so great now.
Speaker 2: It's involved such a long way from back in the
Speaker 2: early nineties when we were talking earlier form the Mayvus
Speaker 2: pit matter, doesn't it that we've got trace DNA now,
Speaker 2: you know, these two of us sitting in a room,
Speaker 2: we're sharing some DNA. We shook hands when we met earlier.
Speaker 2: That's a transfer of DNA and they can actually detect
Speaker 2: those things now, so all that stuff is becoming really critical.
Speaker 2: You've almost got a wear a mask to go into
Speaker 2: any scene and stop breathing. And we stand on those
Speaker 2: little plates. Sometimes you've got shoe marks of the floor
Speaker 2: shining you got to go in with. You've got foot
Speaker 2: boot covers on, you've got a full forensic suit, you've
Speaker 2: got a cameround your neck or other equipment you're carrying,
Speaker 2: and you're walking on a ten or twelve inch square plate.
Speaker 2: That's just to spend it off the ground, Just see
Speaker 2: you don't he's trying to tiptoe a crossovers. It's lethal.
Speaker 1: Also to reconstruct the crime scene, which is quite often
Speaker 1: critical come prosecution time or the time it's at an inquest.
Speaker 1: What's the developments you've seen because early stages that I
Speaker 1: saw it was here's a photograph, he's a photograph of
Speaker 1: the room. This is where the body was. And now
Speaker 1: you're seeing three D recreations.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, it's come on leaps and bounds. Here. They've
Speaker 2: got a thing called Zebie in Queensland. It was the
Speaker 2: CSIRO joint thing with one of the universities. And you
Speaker 2: walk around the crime scene now and they just have
Speaker 2: this little wobbly camera that's sort of little square box
Speaker 2: only about the size of oversized cube. They just have
Speaker 2: it on this thing. They walk around. This thing is
Speaker 2: bouncing around zebras like on a soft spring, and that's
Speaker 2: three D imaging the whole thing. And they get like
Speaker 2: a proper three dimensional drawing or diagram of the of
Speaker 2: the whole room and the bridges and indoors, outdoors, a
Speaker 2: whole lot. That's come on, massive amount of stuff. When
Speaker 2: I started in Adelaide, we had two blocks who were
Speaker 2: qualified draftsmen and they were drawing maps and stuff of houses.
Speaker 2: They're going to mess them an up and do that.
Speaker 2: Now they just go in and they got digital measuring tools.
Speaker 2: You just use those and you can whip a room
Speaker 2: lay and no time at all.
Speaker 1: I say, I saw it towards the ladder part of
Speaker 1: my career and the re creations they can do with
Speaker 1: crime scenes and how handy that is to prove or
Speaker 1: disprove some of the facts that.
Speaker 2: And we've got we've got blood blood spatter analysis there
Speaker 2: as well. From you know, they use trigonometry in some
Speaker 2: very complex mathematics to measure the length and the angle
Speaker 2: of the bloods blatter on walls and on floors objects,
Speaker 2: and from that they can determine exactly what height the
Speaker 2: person was when the blood was done, so they know
Speaker 2: if someone was on the floor and they've been kicked
Speaker 2: or stomped on after they've lost some blood, or if
Speaker 2: they're halfway down and maybe they're in a headlock and
Speaker 2: someone's pumbling them, making them determine all that sort of stuff.
Speaker 2: Now we're using this very well, like to me, it's
Speaker 2: complex mathematics, but calculators and they measure all that the
Speaker 2: stringlines and stuff.
Speaker 1: And we had the pathologists Roger Bayart who from South
Speaker 1: Australia based in South Australia and talking about some of
Speaker 1: the things that they used to rely on from a
Speaker 1: pathology point of view. Now that you can scan the
Speaker 1: bodies and all that, that's changing the thinking of you know,
Speaker 1: a stab wound, what the stab wound would look like.
Speaker 1: I remember turning up the post more thans with the
Speaker 1: knife and putting the knife near the people. That looks
Speaker 1: like we take a photo with a scale next to it. Yeah,
Speaker 1: but yeah, great improvements.
Speaker 2: Massive improvement technologies has been great in the forensic field
Speaker 2: in that sense. We don't use film anymore and we
Speaker 2: just keep taking photos now until the memory car gets full,
Speaker 2: you know, and we can see what we've got. And
Speaker 2: when I started there was you had to take the
Speaker 2: picture on the film and it might be a weak
Speaker 2: before you found it where it came out, and if
Speaker 2: it hadn't worked out, you buggered.
Speaker 1: Well. The advantage of saving people going into a crime
Speaker 1: scene because you want to have a look before the
Speaker 1: photos were developed or now okay, this is a crime
Speaker 1: scene that you need less people going in there, less contamination.
Speaker 2: I've had men lying dead on a roadway hit run
Speaker 2: from a car accident, and I've had him identified in
Speaker 2: twenty minutes. Just go up and photograph his thumb with
Speaker 2: the appropriate sticker and things next to it, and then
Speaker 2: put that in my digital camera, load into my laptop
Speaker 2: in the car because all the notes now on laptops
Speaker 2: in Queensland. Ring the fingerprint office and say, I'm just
Speaker 2: sent you this job. Can you rush it through because
Speaker 2: he's he's dead, he's here, We need to find out
Speaker 2: where he lives, who he is, and we can do
Speaker 2: this stuff. Yep, no worries. So twenty minutes later they
Speaker 2: bring me back. Yes, it's this bloke and he's this high,
Speaker 2: he's got this color hair and all those things.
Speaker 1: I think it's swinging the pendulum in favor of the cops.
Speaker 1: Like to get away of a crime is a lot
Speaker 1: more complicated these days than it was in the past.
Speaker 2: Yeah, crooks, you it'll be a lot better now, even
Speaker 2: just dropping some sweatings and depending on the circumstances, you know,
Speaker 2: I beat the sweat might be enough for them. They
Speaker 2: love wearing their baseball caps or their beanies and they
Speaker 2: leave them behind. You might as well just leave me
Speaker 2: in name and address. If you can leave me a
Speaker 2: baseball cap, you know, with a sweat band it or
Speaker 2: beanie and stuff. You take your hair in DNA.
Speaker 1: Man. The people have been caught because they've discarded the
Speaker 1: Bella club or the baseball.
Speaker 2: Cap and clean up after yourself.
Speaker 1: Another murder that you said that it really left an
Speaker 1: end packed on. That was Carline Ward.
Speaker 2: Oh, Carline and Adelaide Ward. She's still unsolved to this day.
Speaker 2: I would say she's probably still the most horrendous killing
Speaker 2: I've been involved in. Made us pit a side the
Speaker 2: way that she was killed. And I won't say because
Speaker 2: it's still not solved. I won't say the exact method,
Speaker 2: but it was brutal. It was really quite vicious, very
Speaker 2: very vicious killing of her. And there was literally a
Speaker 2: page I reckon it was an a four page long
Speaker 2: of potential suspects for her. Because the lifestyle she was
Speaker 2: leading apart from being involved in drugs, she was a
Speaker 2: sex worker and doing things like that to try and
Speaker 2: make ends meet. It was almost an impossible task to
Speaker 2: find who killed her. But there is still a big reward.
Speaker 2: If anyone was listening and does have some information, I'm
Speaker 2: sure the family would like to know.
Speaker 1: Oh.
Speaker 2: I was up in Queensland. I thought they'd solved. At
Speaker 2: one point I got a phone call from one of
Speaker 2: the detectives said, I do you remember this job? Yes,
Speaker 2: I do. I took a re' talking about DNA. I
Speaker 2: took a small droplet of blood from a pair of shoes.
Speaker 2: Apparently at that scene he told me this. I couldn't
Speaker 2: remember it, and they had to analyzed and they had
Speaker 2: come up with a potential suspect from that drop of blood.
Speaker 2: But then I've heard nothing more, so I think nothing
Speaker 2: came from that. Maybe the personal applause will excuse at
Speaker 2: that stage, but yeah.
Speaker 1: Well she I think she was thirty five years old
Speaker 1: and I was found there by her sixteen sixteen.
Speaker 2: Years that's right. Yeah, he was a subject at one point,
Speaker 2: and then of course a number of his friends. But
Speaker 2: remember the house had no power. She was doing it
Speaker 2: very tough, like no light bulbs in half the house,
Speaker 2: you know, we had to keep moving light bulb. We
Speaker 2: bought our own lights in to do that, and of
Speaker 2: course back in those days there were just those big
Speaker 2: collision lights we had to bring in which generate heat,
Speaker 2: and that didn't assist the Fingo Breau. When they came
Speaker 2: in after us to do it, they said they probably
Speaker 2: dried out some of the prints a bit because of
Speaker 2: the heat in the room. But you have no choice.
Speaker 2: You can't work in the dark completely.
Speaker 1: Given given the things that you've seen and without because
Speaker 1: it's SEL's unsolved, so we won't break down the details
Speaker 1: of what you know about the crime scene. But what
Speaker 1: was it about that crime scene that stuck with you?
Speaker 2: I think it was just the brutality of it, just
Speaker 2: the way that her house had been wrecked, and how
Speaker 2: she was presumably a lady, it was doing it very
Speaker 2: tough and wasn't but she her lifestyle was in that
Speaker 2: sort of general field of associates. It's just one they've
Speaker 2: never been able to solve. But her house just a
Speaker 2: all every day what are you having in Sydney Housing
Speaker 2: Commissioner isn't generally public housing? Public housing in one of
Speaker 2: these public housing type things. I think at one point
Speaker 2: when I was photographing, went to the toilet and didn't
Speaker 2: even have toilet paper. It was just you know, squares
Speaker 2: of newspaper cut up and sort of stuff. She was
Speaker 2: doing things really pretty tough. And light bulbs. She must
Speaker 2: have either been moving around and just didn't bother any
Speaker 2: lights in the house. Half the light bulbs were missing.
Speaker 1: It's sad, strange house. Some things just stick with you.
Speaker 1: We've got a lot of murders to talk about. But
Speaker 1: other type of work that you do as a crime
Speaker 1: scene officer plantations, you houses.
Speaker 2: Yeah, in the early days of certainly in South Australia,
Speaker 2: we used to go all over the state looking for
Speaker 2: mainly cannabis s crops. Back in those days they were
Speaker 2: growing in glasshouses. You go to the northern Sumbers of
Speaker 2: Adelaide and there was a lot of families would have
Speaker 2: glasshouses growing cucumbers and tomatoes and things. But sometimes every
Speaker 2: second row would be a row tomatoes and the next
Speaker 2: row would be cannabis, and just all through and you'd
Speaker 2: be talking forty to fifty meters long some of these things,
Speaker 2: and there was just one hundreds and hundreds surprise tomatoes. Yeah,
Speaker 2: that's right. Yeah, So they were often massing in that.
Speaker 2: And then you know some wild crops in the national
Speaker 2: parks and just people just find big paddocks for forest areas,
Speaker 2: they just grow them in there. I'm going to the
Speaker 2: bottom of the orp Pinsuer. At one time there's been
Speaker 2: a fire and the Rural Fire Service had gone in
Speaker 2: and put the fire out and they'd traced it back,
Speaker 2: so they found this makeshift camps up. This caravan had
Speaker 2: old kerosene fridge, so the kerosine fridge was the reason
Speaker 2: it had caught from the bush. Fried started and there
Speaker 2: were ten or nine, nine hundred and something of these
Speaker 2: little jiffy pot seedlings, all in trays, all spread out
Speaker 2: in different enclosures with rabbit fences around them and stuff
Speaker 2: like that. I thought, well, that's that's interesting. So it
Speaker 2: was just on just nearly ten thousands. I think we've
Speaker 2: just worked on ten thousand of them. So we loaded
Speaker 2: them all up, took them all back, and that obviously
Speaker 2: became quite a major inquiry some of them. Some of
Speaker 2: them looked like they were cannabis, you can tell, and
Speaker 2: others weren't. So we made a plan. We took a
Speaker 2: representative sample of these trays and I put them in
Speaker 2: my in my friensic car and I drove it back
Speaker 2: to Cadana. It was a two hours two hour drive,
Speaker 2: and some of them had little little sprouts on them,
Speaker 2: so I think the following day I drove them to
Speaker 2: Adelaide to the botanists and said, tell me what these are.
Speaker 2: And they had a look at them and he said,
Speaker 2: I can't tell exactly what they are. I said, why not,
Speaker 2: They're plants. You're a botanist. Tell me that's what you do.
Speaker 2: You're a botanist, you know. You tell me you spent
Speaker 2: tell me you spent all these at university. You can't
Speaker 2: have what these are? The little he said, No, he said,
Speaker 2: because there's a He said, there's a certain point in
Speaker 2: a plant's life where it could be anything, which I
Speaker 2: didn't know about. Perhaps it's like human embryates. But these
Speaker 2: little things were so small he couldn't tell me. I said, okay,
Speaker 2: So he said, grow them and yeah, bring them back
Speaker 2: a bit more mature and I'll have a crack.
Speaker 1: How is your drug dealing going?
Speaker 2: Well, that was the thing. So I went back and
Speaker 2: told that to my detectives, and then they made inquiries
Speaker 2: and the drug squad had said, well, you will get
Speaker 2: you a permit. You can get a research permit. Oh okay.
Speaker 2: I just had these in my exhibit room and watered
Speaker 2: them and kept them going. Then I spoke to the superintendent,
Speaker 2: Dennis Edmonds his name, he's passed away now, poor man.
Speaker 2: He rang me. The detective superintendent of the drug short
Speaker 2: rings me up and he says, I've got this permit
Speaker 2: we can get you just need to keep growing them,
Speaker 2: so I'll get the permit, okay, no worries. And then
Speaker 2: I think you may have rang me. The followers rang
Speaker 2: someone and said the permit's been approved. It's all good.
Speaker 2: You're good to go. You've got a research permit, okay.
Speaker 2: So I suddenly I become a research well, I've become
Speaker 2: a research researcher person for the for the summer, for
Speaker 2: the euro draining these things. So I've warded these things diligent.
Speaker 2: I've kept little notes on it and stuff all the
Speaker 2: way through. And then I've had to go on holiday.
Speaker 2: So I've left strict instructions with the station senior sergeant.
Speaker 2: I need to come in every two days and just
Speaker 2: a little bit of water in these things. Just make
Speaker 2: a note here on.
Speaker 1: All the your South Australia. So we thought it were
Speaker 1: bad in New South Wales and Queensland have had their times.
Speaker 2: So I've had my two week holiday wherever I was
Speaker 2: gone for and I've come back and these things in
Speaker 2: there they're looking like proper little plants and you can
Speaker 2: start seeing. I can see they're something look like cannabis leaves.
Speaker 2: Some of them have died. But if you look at
Speaker 2: my garden, and I'm not a good gardener, at the
Speaker 2: best time. So out of this, I think I had
Speaker 2: sixteen or thirty of them or something. So I've taken them.
Speaker 2: Then straight back to the botaners and okay, now Tommy,
Speaker 2: he said, yep, they are cannabis. It's fantastic, Thank you
Speaker 2: very much, go back, let them die. That was it
Speaker 2: until the court case when and you would have had this.
Speaker 2: You're getting the witness box and you're sitting there and
Speaker 2: you're answering these questions and you suddenly the penny drops
Speaker 2: on which way the defense are starting to go with.
Speaker 2: They're trying to lead me down the path. I'm thinking
Speaker 2: they're going to have a crack at me for being
Speaker 2: a drug dealer here because I've never physically seen this permit.
Speaker 2: So you've done that, I said, yeah, I did. I said,
Speaker 2: did you see the permit?
Speaker 1: No?
Speaker 2: Do you know the contingents of the film? I said no,
Speaker 2: But Superintendent he rang me and he told me id right, yeah.
Speaker 2: So it turned out during the judgment of I think
Speaker 2: they got convicted there was no issue with that, but
Speaker 2: there is a seven page judgment that names me and
Speaker 2: at the time seeing this agent Spencer as technically we
Speaker 2: have cultivated cannabis. Against the control some active we're actually
Speaker 2: I'm a drug grower.
Speaker 1: We of course we all make we all make mistakes,
Speaker 1: but as long as you learn from your mistakes. Working
Speaker 1: South Australia covering the big area and there's a lot
Speaker 1: of remote locations and your work country areas. Car accidents
Speaker 1: too that were the ba and to me they rocked
Speaker 1: me more than murder scenes car accidents. I think it's
Speaker 1: just that it can happen to anyone. Tell us about
Speaker 1: some of the car accidents.
Speaker 2: Remember before I joined the police, I was a volunteer
Speaker 2: firefighter in the Country Fire Service there and because we
Speaker 2: were living near Gaula mostly rural, so there were a
Speaker 2: lot of dirt roads hence the shooting incident, those sorts
Speaker 2: of things, and there was I think it was a
Speaker 2: little small Ford laser back in those days. Had about
Speaker 2: four or five young teenage people at fifteen sixteen year
Speaker 2: olds and they've run off the road. This thing's on
Speaker 2: its roof and it's gone through a fence rolled a
Speaker 2: couple of times. So we've gone there to try and
Speaker 2: cut them out, and we're in there, we're trying to
Speaker 2: a couple of the guys are trying to cut the
Speaker 2: thing apart with the jaws of life and that sort
Speaker 2: of stuff, and we've gone inside this car that comfort
Speaker 2: some of them, and they literally died in our arms.
Speaker 2: A couple of we lost too that night, and inside
Speaker 2: the car. I don't know if the others made it
Speaker 2: or not, but there was just one of those horrendous things.
Speaker 2: I'm one of I'm twenty one or two years old
Speaker 2: at this stage. To watch these people die in your arms,
Speaker 2: it's very confronting. So I suppose it was always destined
Speaker 2: to be in forensics in some way when you.
Speaker 1: Think about that, processing that again, because you see such
Speaker 1: horrendous things, and you've seen such horrendous things. I've heard
Speaker 1: a lot of people say, I'm focusing.
Speaker 2: On doing the work.
Speaker 1: I've got a role to do, and it might catch
Speaker 1: up later, but that the particular point.
Speaker 2: In time, well, it was usually me. It turned out,
Speaker 2: did have my what I call my falling out the
Speaker 2: tree moment back in two thousand and nine. That's a
Speaker 2: nice way of Yeah, the branch snapped and I just
Speaker 2: fell out the tree, but I climbed back up the
Speaker 2: Eventually we'll.
Speaker 1: Talk about that further. I don't want people to think
Speaker 1: it's just because you've lost your drudge trade.
Speaker 2: A judge what the judgement compliment? He told us that it.
Speaker 1: Was very the judges involved.
Speaker 2: He said that it's not the sort of actions that
Speaker 2: would revile the public. He said, in fact, most of
Speaker 2: it would think it was quite a great deal of
Speaker 2: common sense judgment judgment. So he said, I'm not going
Speaker 2: to take any action about the unlawful stuff, and the
Speaker 2: evidence will be admitted because that's what they're trying to do.
Speaker 2: They could show that we've grown them without the actual
Speaker 2: permit being properly legally obtained them. Yes, because we sort
Speaker 2: of subverted that. When we can do this, this is
Speaker 2: common sense, is logical. Most of the public thought was
Speaker 2: the right thing, and they judge said the same things.
Speaker 2: I'm not throwing out because you know, these guys have
Speaker 2: used some common sense and practicality. Because they didn't physically
Speaker 2: have the permit his hand, it doesn't matter. Yeah, but yes,
Speaker 2: technically we did grow drug gun awfully apparently because I
Speaker 2: didn't have the in my hands. Yeah, same bit of paper.
Speaker 1: Well, I like it when the courts take it very sensible,
Speaker 1: common sense approach. I certainly did because I just started
Speaker 1: in Queensland, I didn't want to get arrested for growing drugs.
Speaker 1: I would have finished my Queen's o't carew very quickly.
Speaker 1: Although they were desperate for police at the time, well
Speaker 1: they were, but I was still at the academy, and
Speaker 1: I think days off from the academy to go and
Speaker 1: do it. So I hadn't going back to South Australia
Speaker 1: and the ten plan flew back a couple of songs
Speaker 1: from the Academy for different things. Any other sort of
Speaker 1: memorable moments in the crime scene and just the day
Speaker 1: to day I want to in part two we're going
Speaker 1: to talk about murders, and obviously I'm not going to
Speaker 1: let you come in here and not talk about you
Speaker 1: are the person that opened the first barrel and the
Speaker 1: infamous body in the barrel case. But any other situations
Speaker 1: in South South Australia.
Speaker 2: There's there's probably heaps when I really think about it,
Speaker 2: but South Australia was an interesting place to be and
Speaker 2: I was there in the forensic science area during what
Speaker 2: I consider the goal old age we had. The DNA
Speaker 2: was evolving. A lot of the guys that were there
Speaker 2: when I got there had been involved in things like
Speaker 2: the tru murders in their careers and stuff. I had
Speaker 2: some great training mentors, really fortunate in that regard world class.
Speaker 2: World recognized some of them in their fields of tourmark
Speaker 2: comparisons and that sort of stuff, so I was really lucky.
Speaker 2: I remember going to Ernabella once. I got a phone
Speaker 2: call again, you're on call phone rings at one o'clock
Speaker 2: in the morning, and I dragged myself out of bed.
Speaker 2: You've got a bit of the airport in the one
Speaker 2: please air wing you earn a bella, okay, thank you
Speaker 2: very much. Hung up, they're lying a bet of one
Speaker 2: thinking where what is Ernabella? So I couldn't sleep. So
Speaker 2: I've got out of bed and I've gone to what
Speaker 2: was the atlas back then, because we didn't have Google Maps,
Speaker 2: Google Earth. So I get the atlass out and look
Speaker 2: at it a bit. I think God's right up there
Speaker 2: at the top end of South Australia. So sure enough,
Speaker 2: then I go down to the airport and we get
Speaker 2: on the plane and fly out, and an Aboriginal fellow
Speaker 2: there has been killed by someone from the neighboring amateur
Speaker 2: sort of the community. And I'd never been in this
Speaker 2: far north ever in my life. This is the first
Speaker 2: time I've been on proper Aboriginal trouble lands, and that
Speaker 2: in itself was interesting to see the way they were
Speaker 2: living in the church. There has got no windows in it,
Speaker 2: nothing like there's cars have just stopped intside of the road.
Speaker 2: They just just left there because no fuel and they
Speaker 2: had an abridge and laid Then he took he took
Speaker 2: me under his wings. He said, come for a drive.
Speaker 2: So he took me from drive all we went to
Speaker 2: the detectives were driving across. Because you detectives don't get
Speaker 2: the planes. They have to drive.
Speaker 1: The private jets.
Speaker 2: So they've they've driven I think from Marla bore.
Speaker 1: We did look up and we see the crime scene.
Speaker 2: That's fine above us.
Speaker 1: But other than that, you know, we're not bitter, that's.
Speaker 2: Right, No, no, no grudges.
Speaker 1: No.
Speaker 2: I think they had to driving because they were from Marla.
Speaker 2: I think they maybe from Port Agusta, had driven a
Speaker 2: marlor board and then went on their way across. So
Speaker 2: we had some some time to kill what we're waiting
Speaker 2: for them. So he's taking me for driving. He took
Speaker 2: me to this like a look at point. This one
Speaker 2: of the high high mountain mounds in the in the town.
Speaker 2: And he said to me, he said look over there.
Speaker 2: I said look and saying he said, you see them
Speaker 2: hills over there, those hills on the horizon. I say, yeah,
Speaker 2: I can see them. This is the reason heavy Aboriginal accent.
Speaker 2: And he said, that's forty miles inside the territory there is.
Speaker 2: I thought, wow, I'm a long way from home.
Speaker 1: You are.
Speaker 2: I can see forty I can see on the horizon
Speaker 2: there's forty k's inside northern territory. I'm almost on the border.
Speaker 2: I've never never been that far remote even today. Still.
Speaker 1: Now, that's that's some of the experiences you can have
Speaker 1: in police in and I make no bones about it.
Speaker 1: I tried to promote people that join the police like
Speaker 1: some of the experiences, and they're not the type of
Speaker 1: experience you'd get in what let's call a normal job.
Speaker 1: All the different experiences that you are going out to
Speaker 1: a remote community like that and having look around.
Speaker 2: It's amazing. And I've driven a right on Lormark from
Speaker 2: a lovely winery in Port Lincoln, dran through the hills,
Speaker 2: through the streets to Port Lincoln, around roundabouts back to
Speaker 2: the police station, all under a little police escort. That
Speaker 2: stops the town. People stop and look at the mainstream
Speaker 2: doing I'm driving this broad I'm stolen. I'd gone to town.
Speaker 2: We've been into Port Lincoln to investigate now, stolen cars
Speaker 2: and vehicles.
Speaker 1: You did a lot of work with stolen vehicle I.
Speaker 2: Did, yeah in my early years because I had a
Speaker 2: bit of a car interest. Myself and one of the
Speaker 2: other sergeants became the go to people in South Australia
Speaker 2: to identify stolen cars back then.
Speaker 1: Has that has that changed now, like with the way
Speaker 1: cars are now?
Speaker 2: I think so. I certainly not aware of as much happening.
Speaker 2: Certainly in the Queensland context. They've still got vehicle examiners there,
Speaker 2: but usually when they've been burnt out and stuff like that.
Speaker 2: But we were having a really bad run with the
Speaker 2: old cars, and I say old, the early model Commodorees
Speaker 2: and those sorts of things, and the ones before them,
Speaker 2: the Falcons, back when engine numbers and a lot of
Speaker 2: were hands stamped and so then numbers were hands stamped
Speaker 2: or were just journal stuff. Now it's all dot matrix
Speaker 2: numbering and computerized and yeah, so we used to do
Speaker 2: a lot of that stuff.
Speaker 1: A welding course there was a real skill to it.
Speaker 1: But I remember working with Ade, the squad specialist, and
Speaker 1: he could just what he could find out from a car.
Speaker 1: It blew me away. It was a real skill.
Speaker 2: There was some stuff we resolved in the that we
Speaker 2: would lose, rather lose a court case than give up
Speaker 2: some of the methodologies we would use because they were
Speaker 2: that special. All manufacturers, they would tell you these things,
Speaker 2: and they had to track their cars, so they do
Speaker 2: certain things to them, and you've got to know where
Speaker 2: these things are and where to look and what they mean,
Speaker 2: how to interpret some of these little marks. So rather
Speaker 2: than give our methodologies that in court, we said we'd
Speaker 2: lose one or two if need be, but we're not
Speaker 2: going to tell exactly how we identified that car. And
Speaker 2: usually once we've made the idea, we would then go
Speaker 2: and find the owner that stolen vehicle and say, come
Speaker 2: and have a look at this car. And they go, oh,
Speaker 2: that thing there, that's the scratch from my wife when
Speaker 2: she hit it with a shopping trolley, or that's my
Speaker 2: cigarette burn on the front seat, and things like that.
Speaker 2: They would identify unique things like that, So we'd often
Speaker 2: use those statements and say the car's been identified because
Speaker 2: of this. Yeah, the methodology wouldn't talk about. Yeah, that
Speaker 2: makes sense. I guess it's like most things in policing homicides,
Speaker 2: you probably don't give all your methodolog.
Speaker 1: It's funny because now everything's readily accessible, is on the
Speaker 1: on the internet, or shows and all that. So I
Speaker 1: think sometimes the crooks think we've got skills that we
Speaker 1: haven't actually got. You can use to your.
Speaker 2: Advantage, friendship people like that. The CSI show is great
Speaker 2: for our reputation. I have profile lifted dramatically. We're getting
Speaker 2: hundreds of requests for you know, to come and talk
Speaker 2: to just tell us what you do and those sort
Speaker 2: of things. And I've had detectives and particularly in Queens
Speaker 2: and who would sit down with a crook and they go, mate,
Speaker 2: this guy's from forensics. He's going to examine you in
Speaker 2: a second. You might as well just tell me now.
Speaker 2: And sometimes I've actually gone you are all right?
Speaker 1: Then I'm not going to admit I've ever said to
Speaker 1: a suspect you've watched the SI.
Speaker 2: Haven't you. Yeah, And that was what it was all about.
Speaker 2: And some of them actually pfferently rolled over and we're
Speaker 2: going to find it anyway.
Speaker 1: But that's good pressure. Let's cut to the chase. Legitimate pressure. Okay, well,
Speaker 1: we'll take a break when we come back. I'm going
Speaker 1: to and as I said, you're not You're not going
Speaker 1: to get in here without me talking about the baronies
Speaker 1: in the Barrel case because the horrendous nature of that
Speaker 1: crime and it's your reference that everyone knows about it.
Speaker 1: And then of course that movie Snowtown, which was really captured.
Speaker 1: I've got to say, out of movies that I've watched,
Speaker 1: that's one that it was almost too heavy for to
Speaker 1: sit through.
Speaker 2: It's a hard watch.
Speaker 1: It was just so grim. We talk about that. There's
Speaker 1: another interesting case I want to touch on that you
Speaker 1: responded to, and that was the murder of a former
Speaker 1: KGB Russian KGB agent. That's got some twists and twists
Speaker 1: and turns. Other things that you did as a crime
Speaker 1: scene officer, the accident that dream World and the Sea
Speaker 1: World helicopter crashes that you were involved in as well.
Speaker 1: I also want to talk about, and I've spoken to
Speaker 1: you before and you're happy to discuss it, that eventually
Speaker 1: this all caught up on you and the battles that
Speaker 1: you've had for mental health, and also touch on what
Speaker 1: you're doing now to help first responders and their families.
Speaker 1: So plenty to talk about. That's just scratching the surface.
Speaker 1: We'll have a break and we'll be back short