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Speaker 1: The public has had a long held fascination with detectives.

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Speaker 1: Detective see a side of life. The average person is

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Speaker 1: never exposed her I spent thirty four years as a cop.

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Speaker 1: For twenty five of those years, I was catching killers.

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Speaker 1: That's what I did for a living. I was a

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Speaker 1: homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead,

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Speaker 1: I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated.

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Speaker 1: The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories

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Speaker 1: from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw

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Speaker 1: and honest, just like the people I talk to. Some

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Speaker 1: of the content and language might be confronting. That's because

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Speaker 1: no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged.

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Speaker 1: Join me now as I take you into this world. Today,

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Speaker 1: I sat down had a chat with recently retired cop

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Speaker 1: Gordon Drage. As a crime scene officer, Gordon attended numerous

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Speaker 1: murder scenes, drug plantations, and horrific situations such as the

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Speaker 1: Dream World tragedy all people died on a theme park

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Speaker 1: ride and the Sea World helicopter crash, where two helicopters

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Speaker 1: collided midair, killing four passengers. We talked about car chases,

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Speaker 1: arresting arm offenders, the time he got shot at, domestic violence, matters,

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Speaker 1: sexual assaults, and a whole lot more. It's everything you'd

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Speaker 1: expect a police officer to experience after working in South

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Speaker 1: Australia and Queensland Police for thirty six years. We also

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Speaker 1: spoke about what it was like when he opened the

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Speaker 1: first of several barrels containing body parts in the notorious

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Speaker 1: Bodies in the Barrel case in South Australia where twelve

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Speaker 1: people were murdered, six of which were put in barrels.

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Speaker 1: Gordon saw a lot of horrendous things in his career,

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Speaker 1: and we also spoke about his own mental breakdown, his

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Speaker 1: recovery and what he's doing now supporting the first responders

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Speaker 1: and their families. He's had an amazing career and this

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Speaker 1: is Gordon's story. Gordon Drage, welcome to I Catch Killers.

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Speaker 2: Thank you very much, pleasure to be here.

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Speaker 1: Well, I always sitting down, I always enjoy I should say,

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Speaker 1: sitting down talking to cops and recently retired cop. When

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Speaker 1: did you get out?

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Speaker 2: Just over two years and March of twenty three was

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Speaker 2: money in date?

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Speaker 1: How you finding life outside?

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Speaker 2: Busy? This retirement stuff is busy as let me tell you.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, well, you retired from Queensland Cops and they've got

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Speaker 1: a mandatory retirement at sixty. Yes.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, So once I turned sixty at midnight on my

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Speaker 2: sixtieth birthday, I lost all my magic powers apparently, and

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Speaker 2: I was no good to anyone out.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I forget that experience. It's funny because I don't

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Speaker 1: think it is anywhere else in the country.

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Speaker 2: I think it's only place in the world. Yeah, it's

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Speaker 2: still the most bizarre thing I'm aware of. But they

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Speaker 2: lose hundreds and they're suffering a real crisis now because

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Speaker 2: there are hundreds of police of my age or coming

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Speaker 2: up to my age that have got to go. So

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Speaker 2: they're having a massive recruiting issue there and their experience

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Speaker 2: is just flooding out the door.

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Speaker 1: There's a lot of that experience that you talk about.

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Speaker 1: You can't underplay the importance of the experience. We haven't

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Speaker 1: had a a good car chase story on my catch

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Speaker 1: Kills for a long time. In prepping for this, there

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Speaker 1: was a reference to the car chase that you're involved in.

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Speaker 1: Do you want to just tell us about that.

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Speaker 2: Early in my career, probably my first twelve months, I

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Speaker 2: reckon it was probably a praation constable. I'm stationed at

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Speaker 2: Gauler outside Adelaide. We get the radio call someone shooting

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Speaker 2: as sheep in the area there. So out we go

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Speaker 2: on the dirt roads and the back blocks of gawler,

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Speaker 2: sheet paddocks everywhere, and we can see across the paddocks

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Speaker 2: there's this plume of dust coming out. Sure there's a

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Speaker 2: car moving. Maybe that's our man. Off we go, let's

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Speaker 2: pull him up, trying to intercept him. But no, off

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Speaker 2: he goes, So maybe he's our man. He starts to

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Speaker 2: take off. So we're just following this plume of dust,

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Speaker 2: and through the dust we come. And at one point

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Speaker 2: he's turning corners left and right, and he does get

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Speaker 2: to one corner and loses control and he spins a

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Speaker 2: book straight into the chitch on the left side of

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Speaker 2: the road. So we get out, guns drawn and take

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Speaker 2: him out the car. And he said, I'm really sorry.

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Speaker 2: I'm really sorry. I didn't hit any when they die. Well, go,

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Speaker 2: what are you talking about, oh, I said, Well, he said,

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Speaker 2: I don't know what got into me. Said, I just

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Speaker 2: put the gun out the window, put a couple of

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Speaker 2: shots back towards you. When we had no idea. Thankful

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Speaker 2: he didn hit us. But then we said, how does

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Speaker 2: this happen? What do you to do? So we went

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Speaker 2: back and retraced our steps, and sure enough there was

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Speaker 2: his twenty two rifle lying at the side the road.

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Speaker 2: He started out the window and we just haven't seen

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Speaker 2: it in the plume of smoke.

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Speaker 1: So he's leaving shots that you avoid the rest for

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Speaker 1: foreign shots.

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Speaker 2: We charged him with the lot.

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Speaker 1: Well, how do you go at the court? That's that's

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Speaker 1: a very serious offense.

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Speaker 2: I think he pleaded guilty. I never I never went

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Speaker 2: to court on it, so okay, he must have been.

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Speaker 2: But it was just but I think that I was saying, now,

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Speaker 2: does it count as being shot at if you don't know?

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Speaker 1: Well, I suppose if you're too stupid to know, that's

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Speaker 1: not that's right. Except you, I'm probably glad you didn't didn't.

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Speaker 2: Know, probably just as well. Yeah, we may have to

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Speaker 2: shoot back.

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Speaker 1: That's and we talked about policing, and it's a tough,

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Speaker 1: tough gig. The thing about policing the intensity you can go.

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Speaker 1: There's always you're always hyper alert, aren't you, Because you

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Speaker 1: can be driving, as you said, out on a country road,

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Speaker 1: enjoying yourself having a conversation with your work partner at

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Speaker 1: the time, and all of a sudden it can go

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Speaker 1: from that to something intense, very much. I don't think

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Speaker 1: the public fully appreciate no.

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Speaker 2: I remember another while we're talking firearms again in my

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Speaker 2: early part of my career, before it even gone to

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Speaker 2: gall So we're talking in the first three or four

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Speaker 2: months of my career. I'm very, very green. Out of

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Speaker 2: the academy. We have gone to a job. Two crews

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Speaker 2: have gone. Mum says, the son's lost the plot. He's

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Speaker 2: having a mental episode, he's misbehaving badly. He's got a firearm.

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Speaker 2: So we pull up at the address and that's why

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Speaker 2: two crews have gone. We meet mum at the front

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Speaker 2: door at the gate and near letter boxing. It's okay,

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Speaker 2: he's got a gun in there. It's a twenty two,

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Speaker 2: but it doesn't actually have the bolt thing in that.

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Speaker 2: He can't load it, so you know, he's not got

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Speaker 2: a loaded fararm. But he's just got this gun he's

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Speaker 2: waving around. So then we go and we find him

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Speaker 2: in the city in the bedroom and there's this screaming

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Speaker 2: girlfriend in the corner off to one side. She's just

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Speaker 2: howling in the feetal position in the corner just outside

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Speaker 2: the room, but we can't get to her. And looking,

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Speaker 2: he said, lying on the bed, and he's got a

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Speaker 2: bloody shotgun because that's not twenty two. There's a big

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Speaker 2: difference beween it. As you would know, there's a big

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Speaker 2: difference between a twenty two and a shotgun. Change and

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Speaker 2: we're going, okay, my mum says, he's got no way

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Speaker 2: of leading. So there was four of us there, all

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Speaker 2: got guns drawn, and not one of us has shot him,

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Speaker 2: and he's pointing this thing at us, and he's threatening

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Speaker 2: her to kill us, and all of a sudden afterwards,

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Speaker 2: it was one of those bizarre things you go through

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Speaker 2: your training. So many points a gun at you. I'm

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Speaker 2: going to shoot them before they shoot me, and not

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Speaker 2: one of us pulled the trigger.

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Speaker 1: That tom.

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Speaker 2: We eventually resolved it, and when we did find the

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Speaker 2: twenty two that mum was talking about, it had the

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Speaker 2: bolt in it, It just didn't little the handle. He

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Speaker 2: just had a screwdriver so he was able to load it.

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Speaker 2: To the moral stories to any new police that might

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Speaker 2: be listening, do never trust, never trust what mum tells you.

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Speaker 2: Everything's going to be as it seems, and don't go

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Speaker 2: in with a preconceived idea that you're not dealing with

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Speaker 2: a load of weapon because she said it can't be.

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Speaker 1: It's difficult, isn't it. And those split second decisions, and

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Speaker 1: unless you're there, you can't. And you see people where

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Speaker 1: they are involved in shooting incidents and there's a lot

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Speaker 1: of judgment on did they do the right thing, didn't

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Speaker 1: they do the right thing? And they're split second decisions.

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Speaker 2: And all this stuff. Why didn't they shoot him in

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Speaker 2: the Legally, police do not think that good a shot.

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Speaker 2: I've been on the firing range, had my target hit

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Speaker 2: by one of my colleagues. You know, there's some of

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Speaker 2: them really poor shots. And if police shoot something in

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Speaker 2: the leg it's usually by accident.

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Speaker 1: Well, I think, and I speak to a lot of

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Speaker 1: people that are caught up. And as a homicide detective,

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Speaker 1: we had to oversee critical incidents. So if police shoot,

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Speaker 1: shoot and kill someone or someone dies in the police operation.

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Speaker 1: But really the training we get is police in firearm use.

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Speaker 1: Unless you're in a specialist tactical squad or whatever where

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Speaker 1: you're shooting more regularly, it's not not enough. Really.

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Speaker 2: I know some people I worked with it, they hated it.

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Speaker 2: I mean they would avoid it like the plague if

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Speaker 2: they could. And others myself include I didn't mind it.

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Speaker 2: You don't get enough. I mean I don't want what

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Speaker 2: the limits are now, But ninety rounds a year or something. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: and that's usually structured over one day or a couple of.

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Speaker 1: Days, over a day, and then it can be two

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Speaker 1: years between your training day or your qualification and the

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Speaker 1: next time you do it, because you've got to do

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Speaker 1: it in the calendar calendar year.

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Speaker 2: That's right.

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Speaker 1: But yeah, I've often thought that that we need more

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Speaker 1: training and then throwing the tasers, throwing the OC spray

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Speaker 1: and everything else that comes in the play. There's a

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Speaker 1: lot of decisions to make that it should be a

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Speaker 1: muscle reflex and training once a week doesn't create that.

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Speaker 2: No, Well, we were having training, I think we get

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Speaker 2: once a year. We'd have a three day block. First

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Speaker 2: day would be maybe a bit of legal stuff, and

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Speaker 2: then you'd be doing your hands a hand, handcuffing techniques,

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Speaker 2: whatever's topical at the time, trying to disarm. Then tasers.

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Speaker 2: The group would do taser for one half of the

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Speaker 2: shift and the others would be on the range doing

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Speaker 2: the shooting, and then you swap over at lunchtime. So

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Speaker 2: then whoever's doing was doing the live fire in the

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Speaker 2: morning will do the taser in the afternoon, and that

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Speaker 2: was it. That's it then for as you say, potentially

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Speaker 2: eighteen months at least before you get around again if

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Speaker 2: need be.

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Speaker 1: And the difference, like I did tactical policing where you're

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Speaker 1: shooting a minimum once a month or if not more,

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Speaker 1: and you could also sit on the range and just

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Speaker 1: fire rounds off and so you felt comfortable with the firearm.

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Speaker 1: But yeah, I think that is something that could could

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Speaker 1: be improved in policing. What about most people when they

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Speaker 1: talk about bear experiences early days in uniform domestic violence

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Speaker 1: situations gow into domestics, Was that something that you were

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Speaker 1: confronted with?

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Speaker 2: Oh yeah, all the time. Because I was working in

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Speaker 2: the northern sumbers of Adelaide, so it was the every

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Speaker 2: sea would have them tougher part to working class people,

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Speaker 2: often lower socio economic occupants. And now I lived out

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Speaker 2: there too, so I include myself in these groups. So

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Speaker 2: some of them, of course had very strained relationships and

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Speaker 2: we get called those quite frequently. But back then when

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Speaker 2: I first started way back in the late eighties, DV

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Speaker 2: wasn't known as DV. That was just a domestic dispute

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Speaker 2: and argument or whatever they've now called it domestic violence.

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Speaker 2: But I remember going to one Elizabeth and that was

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Speaker 2: that was horrendous. We went and saw this lady and

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Speaker 2: as you do, you separate the male and the female.

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Speaker 2: I had the mail with me getting his version of

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Speaker 2: what was going on, and my partners then come in

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Speaker 2: and said, I need to see you. And he was

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Speaker 2: talking to the female in the relationship and he said,

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Speaker 2: she's just told me the poured bleach over. We could

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Speaker 2: swell bleach. When we walked in, he's poured bleach over

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Speaker 2: and he hit her with a broom. He really injured

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Speaker 2: her arm, and he said during the whole process, he's

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Speaker 2: actually he's raped her. Rape in marriage. Oh gee said

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Speaker 2: Then we had to call the cib in and all

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Speaker 2: those things, and turned out that she actually had a

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Speaker 2: broken arm. She had her arm broken, bleach poured over,

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Speaker 2: and had been raped, and she revealed a rape some

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Speaker 2: days prior. And when it went to court, the magistrate

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Speaker 2: just made the front page of the papers because in

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Speaker 2: the whatever it was now in nineteen eighty eight or nine.

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Speaker 2: Perhaps he had said during his summing up, and I'm

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Speaker 2: sure he didn't mean it to like it, But what

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Speaker 2: the media grabbed on was when he said, sometimes a

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Speaker 2: male a man might need to persuade his wife a

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Speaker 2: little bit yet a little bit of cadeeling, a bit

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Speaker 2: of coercing into sexual activity, thinking, isn't it so you

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Speaker 2: can just imagine that she had her arm broken and yeah,

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Speaker 2: and she had bleach brought over. That's not that's not

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Speaker 2: sort of subtle curdueling. It's doesn't fall into anybody's definitely

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Speaker 2: a full play.

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Speaker 1: No, But look, we're improving, not definitely the way that

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Speaker 1: domestic violence is managed, but we're also seeing the ramifications

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Speaker 1: the amount of people were a killed as a result

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Speaker 1: of domestic violence situations, and that it's quite confronting and

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Speaker 1: it's very difficult early in your policing career to come

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Speaker 1: in there and speak with authority, and that you're talking

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Speaker 1: to people who are probably the same age as your

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Speaker 1: parents all around that, and you're trying to give them

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Speaker 1: relationships advice when you're trying to sort that out yourself.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, one thing I was very grateful for when I

257
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Speaker 2: went to apply for the South Australian Police straight from school.

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Speaker 2: They knocked me back and I was devastated. Only if

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Speaker 2: I wanted to be a copper. I had uncle who

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Speaker 2: was a bobby in England, and I don't know why,

261
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Speaker 2: just what always wanted to be a copper. There was

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Speaker 2: no other coppers in my family apart from English uncle.

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Speaker 2: So I got knocked back and they say, now we

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Speaker 2: have to go go off and get some life experience.

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Speaker 2: I thought, oh terrible, Say anyway, that's what I did.

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Speaker 2: I went off and by the time I came back

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Speaker 2: to them, I'd had an overseas sort of trip. I've

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Speaker 2: been in England for a year. I'd come back. I

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Speaker 2: was working in the factory, working with the whole owns

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Speaker 2: of different people. And then I've also got married and

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Speaker 2: had my first daughter was born just before I went

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Speaker 2: and went out of the academy, and and that that

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Speaker 2: served me in good stead. Because when you get to

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Speaker 2: these things, one of the first things I'll say to

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Speaker 2: you is what would you know? Are you married?

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Speaker 1: Yes?

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Speaker 2: I am your kids yes, So I can answer yes

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Speaker 2: to most of their most of the things I try

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Speaker 2: and tear me down off for somewhat they formed yeah,

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Speaker 2: I do have I do have kids. I know they

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Speaker 2: can drive you crazy, but you can't be beating the

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Speaker 2: wife up for that sort of stuff, and so it

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Speaker 2: does help. I think having life experience was beneficial one

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Speaker 2: hundred percent agree. There's exceptions that people have joined straight

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Speaker 2: from school and they've made stellar careers. But I always

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Speaker 2: thought that it served well with people who've got a

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Speaker 2: little bit of life experience and spending a couple of

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Speaker 2: years out of school. So you get not going straight

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Speaker 2: from school in the cops and tell us.

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Speaker 1: About your career. Just give us a brief overview of

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Speaker 1: more work than what you did.

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Speaker 2: I've had a very fortunate career. I've been very very

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Speaker 2: lucky to be in maybe the wrong place at the

294
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Speaker 2: right time or the wrong right place at the wrong time,

295
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Speaker 2: depending I look at these things perspective. I started my

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Speaker 2: career in nineteen eighty six. I went into the police

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Speaker 2: Academy in South Australia, came out in eighty seven. I

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Speaker 2: did fourteen and a half years in South Australia and

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Speaker 2: then when Queensland were recruiting a lot of people, I

300
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Speaker 2: took the chance then to move to Queensland because my

301
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Speaker 2: eldest daughter was about to start high school. It was

302
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Speaker 2: just timing for the kids. Well, if they're going to go.

303
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Speaker 2: South Australia financially was going very bad at that stage

304
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Speaker 2: and they closed thirty five state schools a year before

305
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Speaker 2: the year I left, and stuff like that. So it

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Speaker 2: just seemed like it was better opportunities in Queensland for them.

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Speaker 2: So we said, if we're going to go, let's go.

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Speaker 2: And so that's what we did when we come up

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Speaker 2: to Queensland. But I started in friendsic because I'd only

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Speaker 2: reasonably reasonably newly married when I first joined South Australia.

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Speaker 2: They I've always had an interest in photography. It was

312
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Speaker 2: a keen photographer ever since I was about fourteen. I

313
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Speaker 2: needed to earn more money because the policing in today's

314
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Speaker 2: probably not so bad, but back then the police pay

315
00:14:17,679 --> 00:14:20,560
Speaker 2: was pretty ordinary. So I thought, I'm going to earn

316
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Speaker 2: more money and I looked around To get more money,

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Speaker 2: I had to get more rank, so I needed to

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Speaker 2: get some stripes. How do I get stripes? I look

319
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Speaker 2: around that, okay, we're going to get promoted. Getting promoted

320
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Speaker 2: in general, dudis was really hard because you've got the

321
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Speaker 2: pyramid effects and you're down in the bottom the basement,

322
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Speaker 2: if you like, of the pyramid. You haven't even got

323
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Speaker 2: to the top. So yeah, the further you go up.

324
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Speaker 2: So I look around. We've got to specialize, and I thought,

325
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Speaker 2: what do I want to specialize in? And then I

326
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Speaker 2: saw the course advertised for forensics and crime, saying I

327
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Speaker 2: wants taking photos. I could probably do that. So I

328
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Speaker 2: applied and got on the course and did pretty well

329
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Speaker 2: on the course, and then I thought, I'll just have

330
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Speaker 2: it in my back pocket ready for when I do

331
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Speaker 2: want to have enough general duties. Totally sick of it,

332
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Speaker 2: I'll do it then. So I went back to the

333
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Speaker 2: station and the senior sergeant at that stage she was

334
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Speaker 2: doing rosters and things, and we said, he said, you're

335
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Speaker 2: going off too, forensics in twenty eight days. What No, no, no, no,

336
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Speaker 2: that's not the plan. He said, Well no, he said,

337
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Speaker 2: you can't do the course. You can't, you can't go

338
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Speaker 2: and look, well, i'll be blunting. You said you can't

339
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Speaker 2: do the bloody course and not go, He said, especially

340
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Speaker 2: when you scored as well as you did. So because

341
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Speaker 2: I think I may have topped the course, but I'm

342
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Speaker 2: not a brag, but I did did pretty well, and

343
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Speaker 2: he said, no, you were to go. That's it. That's

344
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Speaker 2: that's how it is. You can't do the course, not go,

345
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Speaker 2: You're you're bloody going, Okay, So off I went.

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Speaker 1: Changed the direction it did.

347
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Speaker 2: So then I find myself on the train trekking into

348
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Speaker 2: Adelaide and stuff for two or three years. And then

349
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Speaker 2: in my first year or so of being in Adelaide

350
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Speaker 2: working there, they asked me to go and relieve over

351
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Speaker 2: the forensic second or the physical evidence section, doing more

352
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Speaker 2: major crimes than the homicides and those sorts of things.

353
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Speaker 2: So I said, oh, go, we go at that and

354
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Speaker 2: went across there. Originally I think it was going to

355
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Speaker 2: be for three weeks. I never left. Yeah, they sort

356
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Speaker 2: they kept me and we got stuck into doing comparison

357
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Speaker 2: work and murders. I traveled all over the state with it,

358
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Speaker 2: and then I actually got a bit burnt out, I

359
00:16:06,880 --> 00:16:11,920
Speaker 2: suppose towards the early mid part of nineteen ninety five.

360
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Speaker 2: So then they had a position advertised for the country

361
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Speaker 2: crime scene people at Kadena on New York Peninsula, which

362
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Speaker 2: is that little boot like a tiny little miniature Italy

363
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Speaker 2: when you look at Mappo South Australia, the little boot.

364
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Speaker 2: So I went and did. I went, did about four

365
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Speaker 2: years there until the girls got to the stage where

366
00:16:25,760 --> 00:16:27,920
Speaker 2: the eldest was going to start high school? What are

367
00:16:27,920 --> 00:16:30,520
Speaker 2: we going to do? Went to Queensland. That's it. Given

368
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Speaker 2: up on my forensic career. That was fine. I've had

369
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Speaker 2: a pretty good run with it. And then when I

370
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Speaker 2: came to Queensland, went to general duties a Broadbeach and

371
00:16:39,080 --> 00:16:42,040
Speaker 2: had some interesting jobs there, got some good fun. Cordon

372
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Speaker 2: armed robber at gun point with his bag of money

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Speaker 2: and his shotguns still on the front seat.

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Speaker 1: Those were the days when they still chase people. It

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Speaker 1: was literally cops and robbers when the banks had been robbed.

376
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Speaker 2: Wasn't it.

377
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Speaker 1: It really was chasing the bad guys. They had their

378
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Speaker 1: sawn off shotgun, bag of cash and they're usually a

379
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Speaker 1: balaclava or something.

380
00:16:59,600 --> 00:17:01,760
Speaker 2: It was a very active arm Robert at the time

381
00:17:01,880 --> 00:17:03,960
Speaker 2: going around knocking off banks all over the Gold Coast.

382
00:17:04,160 --> 00:17:06,240
Speaker 2: And one day he's done this robbery at the bank

383
00:17:06,359 --> 00:17:09,159
Speaker 2: and then he's sped down past the speed camera in

384
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Speaker 2: his stolen car. So speed camera guy gets on the radio.

385
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Speaker 2: So I've just had this car come through one hundred

386
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Speaker 2: and twenty of whatever used to go in this way,

387
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Speaker 2: and it turns out it's the same one that's just

388
00:17:17,400 --> 00:17:19,280
Speaker 2: left the bank. And we were just at the broad

389
00:17:19,280 --> 00:17:21,679
Speaker 2: Beach police station doing typing or something, and we're listening

390
00:17:21,680 --> 00:17:23,880
Speaker 2: to this chase sort of coming in and sure enough

391
00:17:23,880 --> 00:17:26,040
Speaker 2: it's coming straight towards us. So my partner then, who

392
00:17:26,080 --> 00:17:28,920
Speaker 2: was actually Australia, let's go if we go? So where

393
00:17:28,960 --> 00:17:30,520
Speaker 2: we go. I'm in the passenger seat. I'm trying to

394
00:17:30,560 --> 00:17:33,120
Speaker 2: call the chase. We end up being the lead car mysteriously,

395
00:17:33,359 --> 00:17:35,320
Speaker 2: and of course your how that was, but Chris could drive.

396
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Speaker 1: Sometimes you find yourself in the wrong spot, so.

397
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Speaker 2: Chris could drive. So off we went, and we went

398
00:17:40,359 --> 00:17:42,200
Speaker 2: the wrong way down some one way streets and things,

399
00:17:42,240 --> 00:17:44,920
Speaker 2: and yeah, I'm trying to read the signs of the

400
00:17:44,920 --> 00:17:47,240
Speaker 2: street signs where we're going as you're calling the chase,

401
00:17:47,240 --> 00:17:48,639
Speaker 2: and of course I get the way he turns down

402
00:17:48,680 --> 00:17:50,600
Speaker 2: the one street doesn't have a street sign. That's one

403
00:17:50,720 --> 00:17:53,000
Speaker 2: only time I've sworn on the radio, so bloody sign.

404
00:17:53,760 --> 00:17:56,440
Speaker 1: But it's so funny you say that, because I think

405
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Speaker 1: a lot of operational police have had that experience when

406
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Speaker 1: you're in the chain and yeah, something driving there's a

407
00:18:02,240 --> 00:18:04,640
Speaker 1: bit of pressure, but if you're calling the chase as well,

408
00:18:05,040 --> 00:18:07,480
Speaker 1: or trying to pick the streets and all that a

409
00:18:07,560 --> 00:18:09,960
Speaker 1: lot of pressure it can be. And like an armed

410
00:18:10,000 --> 00:18:12,520
Speaker 1: robber from it's done the stick up on the bank,

411
00:18:12,840 --> 00:18:16,080
Speaker 1: they don't give up easily. So did you did you

412
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Speaker 1: catch him?

413
00:18:19,000 --> 00:18:21,240
Speaker 2: Yeah? He went down to the end on like the

414
00:18:21,240 --> 00:18:23,359
Speaker 2: Gold Coast Highway, so it's quite a busy road. And

415
00:18:23,400 --> 00:18:26,399
Speaker 2: then he's come up towards red traffic lights. No surprise

416
00:18:26,400 --> 00:18:27,639
Speaker 2: if you live on the Gold Coast that we've got

417
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Speaker 2: red traffic lights and the traffic's starting to build up.

418
00:18:30,119 --> 00:18:31,840
Speaker 2: So he's just done the you turn across the traffic

419
00:18:31,840 --> 00:18:34,680
Speaker 2: islands right and gone to turn and go back the

420
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Speaker 2: other way. So my palm driver at the time, Chris,

421
00:18:38,000 --> 00:18:41,119
Speaker 2: he's done the same thing across we've gone and bugging

422
00:18:41,160 --> 00:18:43,199
Speaker 2: me dead. We've crashed into the right side of his

423
00:18:43,240 --> 00:18:45,800
Speaker 2: car and pushed him into a somebody's front fence up

424
00:18:45,840 --> 00:18:49,000
Speaker 2: on the Kirby's gone and our police cars sitting up

425
00:18:49,000 --> 00:18:50,680
Speaker 2: against his drivers door, so he can't even get out.

426
00:18:50,880 --> 00:18:52,520
Speaker 2: So we've jumped out around the other side and near

427
00:18:52,520 --> 00:18:54,760
Speaker 2: he's sitting in the cars, shaken and stirred. With his

428
00:18:55,080 --> 00:18:57,840
Speaker 2: bag full of money and the shotgun on the front seat.

429
00:18:57,880 --> 00:19:00,719
Speaker 2: So he's been arrested at gunpoint with probably does at

430
00:19:00,720 --> 00:19:02,680
Speaker 2: other police. I didn't lost count because you get that,

431
00:19:02,800 --> 00:19:05,040
Speaker 2: you get the blue haze, you've got that down, the

432
00:19:05,080 --> 00:19:06,199
Speaker 2: fixed vision that comes on.

433
00:19:06,640 --> 00:19:08,720
Speaker 1: How how was the adrenaline from your point of view,

434
00:19:09,720 --> 00:19:13,360
Speaker 1: seriously at the knee the type of chasers, it's so intense.

435
00:19:13,520 --> 00:19:15,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, you're seriously week at the knees. You get when

436
00:19:15,840 --> 00:19:17,520
Speaker 2: you when you actually stop, you've got him in cuffs.

437
00:19:17,520 --> 00:19:19,520
Speaker 2: You think, okay, do you think my needs are shaking?

438
00:19:19,560 --> 00:19:22,280
Speaker 2: I've literally got wobbly legs because the adrenaline is just dumped.

439
00:19:22,320 --> 00:19:25,480
Speaker 1: And you yeah, the first couple of times you notice

440
00:19:25,480 --> 00:19:27,520
Speaker 1: that and you've become aware of it and have an

441
00:19:27,600 --> 00:19:31,000
Speaker 1: expectation that it's going to be the case. But yeah,

442
00:19:31,080 --> 00:19:33,640
Speaker 1: they were. They were wild times and when the banks

443
00:19:33,680 --> 00:19:36,400
Speaker 1: are being robbed. But you think, now if someone were

444
00:19:36,480 --> 00:19:38,879
Speaker 1: in recording in Sydney, but if someone walking into a

445
00:19:39,200 --> 00:19:40,879
Speaker 1: bank in Sydney now with a gun and be on

446
00:19:40,920 --> 00:19:43,160
Speaker 1: the front page of the paper, it was just a regular,

447
00:19:43,440 --> 00:19:44,320
Speaker 1: regular occurrence.

448
00:19:44,520 --> 00:19:46,400
Speaker 2: If they got money from banking, that would be surprising.

449
00:19:46,800 --> 00:19:48,560
Speaker 2: Banks don't even kick case like they used to.

450
00:19:50,200 --> 00:19:53,239
Speaker 1: Catch up with some old notorious bank robbers and all

451
00:19:53,240 --> 00:19:55,440
Speaker 1: that noways Jake. If you guys came out of a

452
00:19:55,520 --> 00:19:57,840
Speaker 1: tire and stam into a bank, they'd want your password.

453
00:19:58,119 --> 00:19:59,720
Speaker 1: You'd have to download a napp.

454
00:19:59,440 --> 00:20:01,880
Speaker 2: And I'm sorry we don't have cashier.

455
00:20:02,040 --> 00:20:04,679
Speaker 1: Yeah. All the frauds is are the ones that are

456
00:20:04,680 --> 00:20:05,879
Speaker 1: making the goal of it.

457
00:20:06,400 --> 00:20:08,000
Speaker 2: Can order now, we can order some cash for but

458
00:20:08,000 --> 00:20:09,960
Speaker 2: we will come back tomorrow at nine o'clock. How much

459
00:20:10,000 --> 00:20:10,400
Speaker 2: you need?

460
00:20:11,400 --> 00:20:13,680
Speaker 1: So okay? That gives us a sort of sense of

461
00:20:13,720 --> 00:20:17,479
Speaker 1: your career and the thirty six years all up and

462
00:20:18,000 --> 00:20:23,960
Speaker 1: split fairly evenly between South Australia and the Queensland. As

463
00:20:23,960 --> 00:20:26,280
Speaker 1: a crime scene officer, how would you describe your wrap?

464
00:20:26,440 --> 00:20:28,840
Speaker 1: Just describe your wroth for people. You know, we watch

465
00:20:28,920 --> 00:20:32,320
Speaker 1: CSI and we have all different different views. Just explain

466
00:20:32,600 --> 00:20:33,359
Speaker 1: what your job is.

467
00:20:33,600 --> 00:20:35,840
Speaker 2: That's probably the best way of doing it. CSI is

468
00:20:35,880 --> 00:20:41,280
Speaker 2: what people associate with. We do the photography, We collect bloods, fingerprints.

469
00:20:41,560 --> 00:20:46,680
Speaker 2: I did fingerprinting for Schumart Comparisons. Timemark comparisons, collect bloods, hair,

470
00:20:46,800 --> 00:20:48,920
Speaker 2: all those bits and pieces along the way, Depending on

471
00:20:48,960 --> 00:20:50,880
Speaker 2: the nature of the job, would depend how in depth

472
00:20:50,920 --> 00:20:52,399
Speaker 2: you will go with that sort of stuff, tape, lifting

473
00:20:52,480 --> 00:20:55,119
Speaker 2: of bodies and objects and things. And then when I

474
00:20:55,160 --> 00:20:57,040
Speaker 2: was in South Australia doing the physical fits and things,

475
00:20:57,160 --> 00:20:59,440
Speaker 2: stuff that's just broken or smash, putting your headlights together,

476
00:20:59,520 --> 00:21:03,000
Speaker 2: tail lights strong, identify cars, stuff like that. All that

477
00:21:03,160 --> 00:21:05,520
Speaker 2: CSI stuff is sort of.

478
00:21:05,440 --> 00:21:08,960
Speaker 1: What we did and it's crucial to an investigation. Looking

479
00:21:09,000 --> 00:21:12,720
Speaker 1: at from a homicide detective's point of view, some of

480
00:21:12,760 --> 00:21:15,200
Speaker 1: the most crucial pieces of evidence we got was from

481
00:21:15,280 --> 00:21:20,760
Speaker 1: the crime scene people and yeah, like you said, footprints

482
00:21:20,760 --> 00:21:23,640
Speaker 1: and all that. I recall someone was bashed to death,

483
00:21:23,760 --> 00:21:26,960
Speaker 1: kicked and kicked, kicked in the head and the shoe

484
00:21:27,000 --> 00:21:30,760
Speaker 1: print was left on the forehead of the victim and

485
00:21:30,840 --> 00:21:35,400
Speaker 1: that match identically to the footprint of the shoe. Yeah,

486
00:21:35,520 --> 00:21:37,960
Speaker 1: so things like that did if you like that.

487
00:21:38,480 --> 00:21:41,760
Speaker 2: Potestrians you get hit by cars that have Carl emblems

488
00:21:42,840 --> 00:21:45,440
Speaker 2: in their leads is crucial.

489
00:21:45,800 --> 00:21:48,600
Speaker 1: Now fairly early in your scene, I think you described

490
00:21:48,600 --> 00:21:51,400
Speaker 1: it as your first murder and it was one that

491
00:21:51,680 --> 00:21:55,080
Speaker 1: I've spoken to you before we sat down where DNA

492
00:21:55,240 --> 00:21:57,680
Speaker 1: came into play. It was the murder of Mavis Pitt,

493
00:21:57,720 --> 00:21:59,800
Speaker 1: a seventy five year old. Do you want to tell

494
00:21:59,880 --> 00:22:02,240
Speaker 1: us the circumstances surrounding that, because it sounded like a

495
00:22:02,320 --> 00:22:03,119
Speaker 1: horrendous one.

496
00:22:03,280 --> 00:22:05,920
Speaker 2: It was. It still sicks to me because my first one,

497
00:22:06,000 --> 00:22:09,080
Speaker 2: partly because of the circumstances. Mavis was a seventy five

498
00:22:09,119 --> 00:22:11,199
Speaker 2: year old lady who was just living alone, you know,

499
00:22:11,240 --> 00:22:15,000
Speaker 2: a little her old style house in Pennington in Adelaide's

500
00:22:15,000 --> 00:22:17,679
Speaker 2: western suburbs. Yes, minding her own business was you have

501
00:22:17,840 --> 00:22:20,399
Speaker 2: tea coffee with her neighbors, and quite regularly was a

502
00:22:20,600 --> 00:22:23,320
Speaker 2: little the genuine lovely, little old lady from running to gather.

503
00:22:23,760 --> 00:22:27,360
Speaker 2: And this was one that was like a stranger. Stranger

504
00:22:27,440 --> 00:22:29,840
Speaker 2: murder most of them people, you know, as we know

505
00:22:29,920 --> 00:22:33,560
Speaker 2: that there's usually I think there's a high percentage known

506
00:22:33,600 --> 00:22:36,680
Speaker 2: to the victims and stuff like that. So she was

507
00:22:36,760 --> 00:22:40,239
Speaker 2: killed by as it turned out, we went in and

508
00:22:40,280 --> 00:22:44,040
Speaker 2: found her on the laundry floor with her lower clothes

509
00:22:44,359 --> 00:22:47,920
Speaker 2: missing and hitched up, and she had this absolute look

510
00:22:47,920 --> 00:22:50,280
Speaker 2: of terror on her face that's still stuck looked in.

511
00:22:50,320 --> 00:22:52,959
Speaker 2: There was this just if you can imagine an elderly

512
00:22:53,000 --> 00:22:55,400
Speaker 2: person who's just been completely shocked, I've just their eyes

513
00:22:55,400 --> 00:22:58,679
Speaker 2: are wide open and they've got this sort of excla

514
00:22:58,960 --> 00:23:01,640
Speaker 2: explained look on their face. That was her lying dead

515
00:23:01,840 --> 00:23:05,359
Speaker 2: on her laundry floor. On her back. We found a hose,

516
00:23:05,880 --> 00:23:08,239
Speaker 2: the connection from a garden hose in the sink that

517
00:23:08,400 --> 00:23:13,000
Speaker 2: also became relevant. So we prosed that process the whole

518
00:23:13,040 --> 00:23:15,960
Speaker 2: scene and it turned out that the offender was a fellow,

519
00:23:16,359 --> 00:23:19,679
Speaker 2: David Jarrett. He was a young young man who was

520
00:23:20,119 --> 00:23:21,960
Speaker 2: involved in cleaning her roof. She had had a roof

521
00:23:22,000 --> 00:23:25,240
Speaker 2: repainted not that many months before, and he'd sort of

522
00:23:25,240 --> 00:23:28,080
Speaker 2: befriended her then because he was there for him and

523
00:23:28,119 --> 00:23:31,080
Speaker 2: his team of workmates were there for two or three days.

524
00:23:31,720 --> 00:23:33,280
Speaker 2: His job was to clean the roofs and the others

525
00:23:33,280 --> 00:23:34,760
Speaker 2: with the garp and paint it. So one of the

526
00:23:34,760 --> 00:23:36,520
Speaker 2: things when we take lifted her body, there was a

527
00:23:36,560 --> 00:23:38,800
Speaker 2: lot of these different little tiny globs of paint that

528
00:23:38,880 --> 00:23:42,400
Speaker 2: came up, but they were only gray greens and sort

529
00:23:42,400 --> 00:23:45,320
Speaker 2: of orangey ochre color. Of course, we now know.

530
00:23:45,320 --> 00:23:46,680
Speaker 1: That they were the paint colors of the Can you

531
00:23:46,760 --> 00:23:49,320
Speaker 1: explain the swabbing the body? I know what you're talking about.

532
00:23:49,359 --> 00:23:51,640
Speaker 2: For all, that's a tape lift is where and back

533
00:23:51,640 --> 00:23:54,760
Speaker 2: in those days we were literally using stick like sticky tape,

534
00:23:55,119 --> 00:23:57,560
Speaker 2: just twenty mil wire I suppose, and we would get

535
00:23:57,600 --> 00:23:59,080
Speaker 2: that and we would just take that over the body,

536
00:23:59,280 --> 00:24:01,880
Speaker 2: clothes and skin whatever we could do the entire surface

537
00:24:01,960 --> 00:24:05,520
Speaker 2: of the body, and when it stopped being sticky, we

538
00:24:05,600 --> 00:24:08,000
Speaker 2: then well, just before it wuld stop being sticky, we'd

539
00:24:08,000 --> 00:24:09,800
Speaker 2: then put them on a glass micro shop slide and

540
00:24:09,840 --> 00:24:12,200
Speaker 2: we would sometimes take dozens and dozens and dozens of

541
00:24:12,200 --> 00:24:14,320
Speaker 2: these marks shop slides back and give them to the

542
00:24:14,320 --> 00:24:16,480
Speaker 2: frensic scientists and they would look over them and that's

543
00:24:16,480 --> 00:24:18,440
Speaker 2: when they found these globules of paints. Now, are you

544
00:24:18,560 --> 00:24:21,399
Speaker 2: looking for a foreign object, looking for anything? Yeah, you

545
00:24:21,600 --> 00:24:23,280
Speaker 2: might be a stray here. In this case, it was

546
00:24:23,280 --> 00:24:25,240
Speaker 2: a little bits of paint and stuff, but there was

547
00:24:25,440 --> 00:24:27,840
Speaker 2: at the post mortem they also do you know, vaginal

548
00:24:27,880 --> 00:24:30,000
Speaker 2: swabs and they take swabs from the mouth and things

549
00:24:30,040 --> 00:24:33,720
Speaker 2: like that as part of the forensic examination at demortuary.

550
00:24:33,560 --> 00:24:37,200
Speaker 1: And from the vaginal swabs. I believe with this particular

551
00:24:37,240 --> 00:24:38,800
Speaker 1: case there was semen.

552
00:24:38,800 --> 00:24:41,840
Speaker 2: Yes, yep, so that that gave them something to work

553
00:24:41,880 --> 00:24:43,760
Speaker 2: with and there was. It turned out when the police

554
00:24:43,760 --> 00:24:46,480
Speaker 2: did their investigation of the detectives, they had I think

555
00:24:46,480 --> 00:24:48,919
Speaker 2: they had sixteen or seventeen suspects in the end, some

556
00:24:48,960 --> 00:24:50,960
Speaker 2: of them were the gang that worked on the roofs

557
00:24:50,960 --> 00:24:53,760
Speaker 2: and others were just neighbors and people. So they went

558
00:24:53,800 --> 00:24:56,320
Speaker 2: and got voluntary samples from most of them and including

559
00:24:56,440 --> 00:24:58,720
Speaker 2: the suspect, and it turned out he was a he

560
00:24:58,800 --> 00:25:00,280
Speaker 2: was a match. It was one of the first times

561
00:25:00,320 --> 00:25:03,120
Speaker 2: I think South Throw had DNA used in a criminal

562
00:25:03,119 --> 00:25:04,960
Speaker 2: trial because it was still quite new back then, were

563
00:25:05,000 --> 00:25:08,000
Speaker 2: talking nineteen ninety two, I think from memory, so we

564
00:25:08,000 --> 00:25:10,280
Speaker 2: were still quite new in South Australia with that, and

565
00:25:10,320 --> 00:25:13,080
Speaker 2: they were using a PCR method, which at the time

566
00:25:13,119 --> 00:25:14,960
Speaker 2: I think South Australia was one of the only states

567
00:25:14,960 --> 00:25:17,720
Speaker 2: that was doing the PCR method. Other states were using

568
00:25:17,720 --> 00:25:22,760
Speaker 2: other amplifications, a different RF something or other, and South

569
00:25:22,760 --> 00:25:24,679
Speaker 2: Throw it was a bit groundbreaking in that sense.

570
00:25:24,480 --> 00:25:26,720
Speaker 1: That they stuck with. Can you explain PCR to.

571
00:25:27,119 --> 00:25:30,600
Speaker 2: PCR is well, in very much Layman's terms, PCR, I

572
00:25:30,640 --> 00:25:35,080
Speaker 2: think polymace polymace chain reaction. They essentially take a small

573
00:25:35,600 --> 00:25:38,879
Speaker 2: small cell or groups of cells and they just replicate it.

574
00:25:38,880 --> 00:25:41,240
Speaker 2: They basically clone it a bit like we all know

575
00:25:41,400 --> 00:25:43,200
Speaker 2: DNA and Dolly the Sheep from all those years ago.

576
00:25:43,240 --> 00:25:45,160
Speaker 2: We were all going to be the same, all supposed

577
00:25:45,160 --> 00:25:48,399
Speaker 2: to look the same, apparently, so that's what certainly got.

578
00:25:48,400 --> 00:25:51,960
Speaker 2: They're using that technology, they're able to multiply it until

579
00:25:51,960 --> 00:25:54,600
Speaker 2: they get enough, or they call it amplification, so but

580
00:25:54,640 --> 00:25:56,680
Speaker 2: they amplify it to the point where it's then a

581
00:25:56,760 --> 00:26:00,639
Speaker 2: suitable sized forum for analysis, because you can't allies just

582
00:26:00,680 --> 00:26:03,920
Speaker 2: one or two selves of decent quantity to be more accurate.

583
00:26:04,320 --> 00:26:06,360
Speaker 1: It really was a game changer, wasn't it.

584
00:26:06,359 --> 00:26:09,000
Speaker 2: It has been huge, Yeah, and it's lucky to be

585
00:26:09,040 --> 00:26:11,560
Speaker 2: there in those probably called the golden ears of forensics.

586
00:26:11,600 --> 00:26:14,480
Speaker 1: For a lot of it, it made your job even

587
00:26:14,520 --> 00:26:18,520
Speaker 1: more crucial, like if you missed opportunities to gather in

588
00:26:18,600 --> 00:26:22,919
Speaker 1: DNA from crime scenes. But the way you describe that

589
00:26:23,040 --> 00:26:26,520
Speaker 1: crime and I know it's stuck with you, and it

590
00:26:26,560 --> 00:26:29,479
Speaker 1: reminds me very similar in a lot of the facts

591
00:26:29,640 --> 00:26:32,520
Speaker 1: from there. A case I did very early in my

592
00:26:32,800 --> 00:26:36,080
Speaker 1: homicide career was the murder of Eileine Cantley. She was

593
00:26:36,119 --> 00:26:39,160
Speaker 1: in her eighties and she was sexually soulted in the home.

594
00:26:39,200 --> 00:26:42,600
Speaker 1: And I still remember that crime scene and the way

595
00:26:42,640 --> 00:26:46,400
Speaker 1: that you've described the victim in the one you're talking about, Yeah,

596
00:26:46,480 --> 00:26:49,560
Speaker 1: they're the vulnerable people, and it's something about something about

597
00:26:49,600 --> 00:26:54,679
Speaker 1: seeing someone in those circumstances and indeed, a crime of

598
00:26:54,840 --> 00:26:59,200
Speaker 1: such violence and such a senseless crime that's been committed.

599
00:26:59,320 --> 00:27:01,480
Speaker 2: I find too that they're also the same group that's

600
00:27:01,520 --> 00:27:04,840
Speaker 2: the most disturbed when even have something as simple as

601
00:27:05,080 --> 00:27:09,000
Speaker 2: I say simple for me, it's fairly straightforward, it's a burglary.

602
00:27:09,040 --> 00:27:11,359
Speaker 2: The amount of times I've been to elderly folks houses,

603
00:27:11,520 --> 00:27:14,520
Speaker 2: particularly ladies who have had their undies draw rifle through. Yeah,

604
00:27:14,560 --> 00:27:15,960
Speaker 2: when the cook will just tip out, you know, the

605
00:27:16,359 --> 00:27:19,640
Speaker 2: running through their undies. That's like a personal violation for them.

606
00:27:19,680 --> 00:27:22,680
Speaker 2: They really that knocks them around for a long time. Yeah,

607
00:27:22,680 --> 00:27:24,080
Speaker 2: it really is quite horrendous.

608
00:27:24,119 --> 00:27:27,760
Speaker 1: So yeah, yeah, it's just there's something wrong when we

609
00:27:27,880 --> 00:27:32,520
Speaker 1: can't protect our elderly and the vulnerable, vulnerable like that.

610
00:27:32,960 --> 00:27:35,720
Speaker 1: With this particular case with Isiland, can't lay the offender.

611
00:27:35,960 --> 00:27:40,040
Speaker 1: PRIVATEA was his surname, and we caught him on DNA

612
00:27:40,119 --> 00:27:41,920
Speaker 1: and I think that would have been about ninety three

613
00:27:41,880 --> 00:27:43,600
Speaker 1: to ninety four, and that was the first time that

614
00:27:43,640 --> 00:27:47,600
Speaker 1: I'd been involved in a case where DNA and it

615
00:27:47,640 --> 00:27:51,480
Speaker 1: was really it was confronting from a police point of view,

616
00:27:51,520 --> 00:27:53,800
Speaker 1: well not confronting, but it was something that was hard

617
00:27:53,840 --> 00:27:56,639
Speaker 1: to comprehend at first, when we were told that the

618
00:27:56,640 --> 00:28:00,000
Speaker 1: seaman matches with this person, we insisted on going down

619
00:28:00,119 --> 00:28:02,080
Speaker 1: the lab and let them explain it to us, because

620
00:28:02,080 --> 00:28:05,760
Speaker 1: we're going what so basically on the information you're providing

621
00:28:05,800 --> 00:28:08,040
Speaker 1: this that's giving us enough to arrest and charge this

622
00:28:08,080 --> 00:28:10,520
Speaker 1: person yet most definitely, And then they talk about the

623
00:28:10,560 --> 00:28:11,879
Speaker 1: statistical analysis, the.

624
00:28:11,920 --> 00:28:13,879
Speaker 2: Coming one in eight hundred and ninety thousand.

625
00:28:14,480 --> 00:28:18,359
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, but yeah, that's definite game changer. And I

626
00:28:18,480 --> 00:28:21,080
Speaker 1: like the strategy that you're talking about in the murder

627
00:28:21,080 --> 00:28:24,920
Speaker 1: of Mavis Pit of anyone involved that came into contact

628
00:28:24,920 --> 00:28:30,280
Speaker 1: with the premises and voluntary the supply of your DNA

629
00:28:31,160 --> 00:28:34,280
Speaker 1: and it puts the puts the pressure on the offender.

630
00:28:34,359 --> 00:28:37,600
Speaker 2: Then it does, and of course he did volunteer a sample. Yeah,

631
00:28:37,640 --> 00:28:41,280
Speaker 2: but that became the subject of great debate and appeal

632
00:28:41,320 --> 00:28:44,000
Speaker 2: and stuff. A couple of years later, I've learned, but

633
00:28:44,120 --> 00:28:46,200
Speaker 2: he's still in jail our I believe. I think he's

634
00:28:46,520 --> 00:28:49,560
Speaker 2: had a couple of parole applications refused. But I Believedveri

635
00:28:49,600 --> 00:28:50,920
Speaker 2: Jarrett is still in jail in Adelaide.

636
00:28:50,960 --> 00:28:53,200
Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, I did a deep dive into it before

637
00:28:53,240 --> 00:28:55,360
Speaker 1: sitting down and talking with you, and I saw that

638
00:28:55,440 --> 00:28:59,560
Speaker 1: appeal and also his attempt to get parole. But yeah,

639
00:28:59,560 --> 00:29:03,400
Speaker 1: a crime like that, Yeah, I've got an open mind

640
00:29:03,440 --> 00:29:06,080
Speaker 1: on how people should be treated in prison, and you

641
00:29:06,120 --> 00:29:08,920
Speaker 1: know all about rehabilitation, but crimes like that, I think

642
00:29:09,040 --> 00:29:12,560
Speaker 1: society needs to be protected from those type of people.

643
00:29:13,280 --> 00:29:16,560
Speaker 1: Been your first murder scene that you worked on and

644
00:29:16,600 --> 00:29:20,360
Speaker 1: got involved, how did your process it internally? Like emotionally?

645
00:29:20,640 --> 00:29:23,800
Speaker 2: Oh, it was so much happening at that stage. I

646
00:29:23,840 --> 00:29:25,280
Speaker 2: don't think I really had time to think about it.

647
00:29:25,320 --> 00:29:27,600
Speaker 2: Is that many years ago now, I really can't recall

648
00:29:27,640 --> 00:29:29,320
Speaker 2: exactly what was going on. I know it was. We've

649
00:29:29,440 --> 00:29:31,200
Speaker 2: used put in a lot of long hours back in

650
00:29:31,240 --> 00:29:33,480
Speaker 2: South Australia. Back in those days, there was nothing to

651
00:29:33,480 --> 00:29:35,960
Speaker 2: spend twenty four hours straight. You would work the scene

652
00:29:36,040 --> 00:29:39,720
Speaker 2: until you pretty much just couldn't stay awakening on there

653
00:29:39,760 --> 00:29:42,920
Speaker 2: plenty of plenty of my colleagues we would they've paid

654
00:29:42,960 --> 00:29:45,040
Speaker 2: for entire verr anders and things from some of these murders.

655
00:29:45,040 --> 00:29:47,400
Speaker 2: They would, you know, they say, oh this this roof,

656
00:29:47,760 --> 00:29:48,840
Speaker 2: this shed was paid for by.

657
00:29:48,800 --> 00:29:53,560
Speaker 1: Some it's cops humor. But I understand that there's people

658
00:29:53,600 --> 00:29:57,680
Speaker 1: that I work with I couldn't afford this extension or

659
00:29:57,720 --> 00:29:58,560
Speaker 1: that it was.

660
00:29:58,600 --> 00:30:00,520
Speaker 2: More than for in a particular murd the case, well,

661
00:30:00,520 --> 00:30:02,800
Speaker 2: we have a big case. So that's how we worked.

662
00:30:02,840 --> 00:30:05,200
Speaker 2: We used to just roll. And these days now, of

663
00:30:05,200 --> 00:30:08,080
Speaker 2: course they stop you after twelve or fourteen hours and

664
00:30:08,080 --> 00:30:09,680
Speaker 2: then put a guard on them. You'll go home and

665
00:30:09,880 --> 00:30:12,320
Speaker 2: stead and come back. But in those days it wasn't

666
00:30:12,400 --> 00:30:14,560
Speaker 2: uncommon to work straight through. I don't think we worked

667
00:30:14,560 --> 00:30:17,239
Speaker 2: that one into the early morning. I think that was

668
00:30:17,680 --> 00:30:20,760
Speaker 2: once we got her body out. That was we're at

669
00:30:20,760 --> 00:30:22,400
Speaker 2: a locked the house down and come back the following

670
00:30:22,440 --> 00:30:24,440
Speaker 2: day to do a bit more with it. Because if

671
00:30:24,480 --> 00:30:27,000
Speaker 2: I recall correctly, I think I've got the call mid morning,

672
00:30:27,000 --> 00:30:30,560
Speaker 2: ten o'clockish on the pager. Back then we had pages.

673
00:30:30,560 --> 00:30:32,800
Speaker 2: It was fore mobile phones were common. So if you're

674
00:30:32,840 --> 00:30:35,360
Speaker 2: on call, you had the pager, which is a little

675
00:30:35,360 --> 00:30:37,840
Speaker 2: electric led would come up and so you call the office.

676
00:30:37,840 --> 00:30:40,160
Speaker 2: So you ring, you ring the call center, and some

677
00:30:40,240 --> 00:30:42,200
Speaker 2: anonymous voice would just say, oh, I've got this message

678
00:30:42,240 --> 00:30:43,640
Speaker 2: for you. It says do this and do that. Because

679
00:30:43,680 --> 00:30:46,280
Speaker 2: it was a third party company they were using, so

680
00:30:46,360 --> 00:30:47,920
Speaker 2: you just ring the paging company and they would say

681
00:30:47,960 --> 00:30:50,400
Speaker 2: the messages call the office or call this number, would

682
00:30:50,400 --> 00:30:52,640
Speaker 2: do this, and they would never tell them exactly what

683
00:30:52,720 --> 00:30:55,280
Speaker 2: was about, so then you ring track them down from

684
00:30:55,280 --> 00:30:55,880
Speaker 2: the landline.

685
00:30:56,000 --> 00:31:00,680
Speaker 1: I read the cord working as a station constable in

686
00:31:00,840 --> 00:31:03,880
Speaker 1: uniform detectives that always hand you a number if if

687
00:31:03,920 --> 00:31:05,800
Speaker 1: you knew this were on this number invariable. It was

688
00:31:05,840 --> 00:31:09,360
Speaker 1: the licensed premises down the road. And I think I

689
00:31:09,400 --> 00:31:11,600
Speaker 1: can still remember the number of some of those licensed

690
00:31:11,600 --> 00:31:15,080
Speaker 1: premises because I had to ring it so often. But

691
00:31:15,400 --> 00:31:18,680
Speaker 1: the world was a different, different place. I've openly said

692
00:31:18,720 --> 00:31:21,240
Speaker 1: that when people talk about the hardest job in the cops,

693
00:31:21,240 --> 00:31:23,520
Speaker 1: and yeah, there's a whole range of cops. You know,

694
00:31:23,760 --> 00:31:27,120
Speaker 1: it can be from tactical policing, criminal investigation, general duties

695
00:31:27,280 --> 00:31:30,680
Speaker 1: all have to it's a heavy weight that they've got

696
00:31:30,720 --> 00:31:33,840
Speaker 1: to carry with their responsibility. But I honestly saying I've

697
00:31:33,840 --> 00:31:36,080
Speaker 1: said it to every crime scene officer I've had on

698
00:31:36,480 --> 00:31:39,560
Speaker 1: the podcast, that I reckon crime scene is the hardest

699
00:31:39,600 --> 00:31:42,840
Speaker 1: gig in the cops in that the long hours that

700
00:31:42,880 --> 00:31:47,040
Speaker 1: you described, uncomfortable situations like I used to hate the

701
00:31:47,080 --> 00:31:50,120
Speaker 1: midnight callouts on the cold winter's night and you go,

702
00:31:50,280 --> 00:31:53,560
Speaker 1: you a crime scene and I'm standing there shivering taking notes,

703
00:31:53,600 --> 00:31:56,160
Speaker 1: and then we finish what the work we need to

704
00:31:56,160 --> 00:31:58,000
Speaker 1: do there, then the crime scene left there for the

705
00:31:58,000 --> 00:32:02,320
Speaker 1: next ten hours, going through and what it can be

706
00:32:02,360 --> 00:32:04,280
Speaker 1: a horrendous location.

707
00:32:03,920 --> 00:32:06,680
Speaker 2: To oh, they can be awful thing and wearing those

708
00:32:06,720 --> 00:32:10,320
Speaker 2: suits like the actual forensic suits, the hoods and the

709
00:32:10,320 --> 00:32:13,400
Speaker 2: whole bit. In South Australia it wasn't as bad, I

710
00:32:13,440 --> 00:32:15,280
Speaker 2: mean something. You to wear them in summer and you

711
00:32:15,400 --> 00:32:19,240
Speaker 2: still sweat. But in Queensland they are just oppressive. Queensland

712
00:32:19,280 --> 00:32:22,120
Speaker 2: somehow it's just horrible because they don't breathe, because they're

713
00:32:22,120 --> 00:32:24,360
Speaker 2: designed not to breathe, so you literally end up with

714
00:32:24,440 --> 00:32:28,240
Speaker 2: you you're sweating out leases of water inside these suits.

715
00:32:28,280 --> 00:32:30,960
Speaker 2: You take them off and they're literally almost full of water.

716
00:32:31,400 --> 00:32:34,160
Speaker 2: They've got elastic cuffs and on the ankles.

717
00:32:34,640 --> 00:32:37,000
Speaker 1: I think we've come to terms with the importance of

718
00:32:37,280 --> 00:32:41,160
Speaker 1: crime scene too, like it is paramount in investigations now.

719
00:32:41,400 --> 00:32:43,880
Speaker 1: I'm not sure I've been able to touch too long

720
00:32:43,920 --> 00:32:46,680
Speaker 1: to know whether it's but is it being properly resourced?

721
00:32:47,320 --> 00:32:51,040
Speaker 2: I think so, certainly it seems at the go Coast

722
00:32:51,040 --> 00:32:54,400
Speaker 2: at the minute, in particular the scenes I've been of late,

723
00:32:54,720 --> 00:32:57,520
Speaker 2: the police have been extra cautious because they had one

724
00:32:57,960 --> 00:33:01,080
Speaker 2: where a fellow was found just east in a hotel room,

725
00:33:01,200 --> 00:33:06,560
Speaker 2: a local hotel, and that one I think didn't embarrass him.

726
00:33:06,560 --> 00:33:09,160
Speaker 2: I mean, he's the man's been charged with that since

727
00:33:10,320 --> 00:33:12,920
Speaker 2: within a few days it was, But the concern was

728
00:33:13,480 --> 00:33:15,239
Speaker 2: the next one. We enter that the police have got

729
00:33:15,280 --> 00:33:16,760
Speaker 2: a crime scene set up and they were all wearing

730
00:33:16,800 --> 00:33:19,800
Speaker 2: suits and the friendship suits, and we go, this looks

731
00:33:19,840 --> 00:33:23,160
Speaker 2: a bit over killing and go no after then, Irang incident.

732
00:33:23,200 --> 00:33:25,960
Speaker 2: We're being extra careful, so you get a little wake

733
00:33:26,000 --> 00:33:27,720
Speaker 2: up call every once in a while, but they seem

734
00:33:27,760 --> 00:33:29,840
Speaker 2: to be very quick at the moment now to declare

735
00:33:29,840 --> 00:33:31,600
Speaker 2: a crime scene and keep everyone out, which is the

736
00:33:31,640 --> 00:33:32,440
Speaker 2: safest option.

737
00:33:32,280 --> 00:33:34,960
Speaker 1: Of course, because the contamination is a big thing, and

738
00:33:35,000 --> 00:33:38,040
Speaker 1: this is what until you sort of break it down,

739
00:33:38,080 --> 00:33:40,920
Speaker 1: you don't really appreciate the importance of it. And invariably

740
00:33:41,400 --> 00:33:43,320
Speaker 1: if mistakes are made, that comes out at the court

741
00:33:43,360 --> 00:33:46,360
Speaker 1: matter when you're being cross examined. But the contamination in

742
00:33:46,440 --> 00:33:49,520
Speaker 1: crime scenes too, like as a detective, a detective might

743
00:33:49,640 --> 00:33:52,080
Speaker 1: go to the crime scene, then speak to the offender

744
00:33:52,160 --> 00:33:55,040
Speaker 1: and then the offender will be examined and they've got

745
00:33:55,120 --> 00:33:58,640
Speaker 1: DNA from the crime scene and there's potential contamination from

746
00:33:58,640 --> 00:34:00,239
Speaker 1: the detective there.

747
00:34:00,280 --> 00:34:03,840
Speaker 2: That's right. Well, the DNA tally you become so great now.

748
00:34:04,280 --> 00:34:06,320
Speaker 2: It's involved such a long way from back in the

749
00:34:06,360 --> 00:34:08,320
Speaker 2: early nineties when we were talking earlier form the Mayvus

750
00:34:08,360 --> 00:34:11,680
Speaker 2: pit matter, doesn't it that we've got trace DNA now,

751
00:34:11,760 --> 00:34:13,319
Speaker 2: you know, these two of us sitting in a room,

752
00:34:13,320 --> 00:34:15,880
Speaker 2: we're sharing some DNA. We shook hands when we met earlier.

753
00:34:16,360 --> 00:34:18,880
Speaker 2: That's a transfer of DNA and they can actually detect

754
00:34:18,880 --> 00:34:21,920
Speaker 2: those things now, so all that stuff is becoming really critical.

755
00:34:21,960 --> 00:34:24,279
Speaker 2: You've almost got a wear a mask to go into

756
00:34:24,280 --> 00:34:27,160
Speaker 2: any scene and stop breathing. And we stand on those

757
00:34:27,200 --> 00:34:29,439
Speaker 2: little plates. Sometimes you've got shoe marks of the floor

758
00:34:29,520 --> 00:34:32,080
Speaker 2: shining you got to go in with. You've got foot

759
00:34:32,200 --> 00:34:34,879
Speaker 2: boot covers on, you've got a full forensic suit, you've

760
00:34:34,880 --> 00:34:37,080
Speaker 2: got a cameround your neck or other equipment you're carrying,

761
00:34:37,200 --> 00:34:40,680
Speaker 2: and you're walking on a ten or twelve inch square plate.

762
00:34:40,760 --> 00:34:42,399
Speaker 2: That's just to spend it off the ground, Just see

763
00:34:42,400 --> 00:34:44,879
Speaker 2: you don't he's trying to tiptoe a crossovers. It's lethal.

764
00:34:46,440 --> 00:34:49,279
Speaker 1: Also to reconstruct the crime scene, which is quite often

765
00:34:49,320 --> 00:34:53,720
Speaker 1: critical come prosecution time or the time it's at an inquest.

766
00:34:53,719 --> 00:34:58,400
Speaker 1: What's the developments you've seen because early stages that I

767
00:34:58,480 --> 00:35:01,040
Speaker 1: saw it was here's a photograph, he's a photograph of

768
00:35:01,080 --> 00:35:02,879
Speaker 1: the room. This is where the body was. And now

769
00:35:03,040 --> 00:35:05,239
Speaker 1: you're seeing three D recreations.

770
00:35:05,280 --> 00:35:07,600
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, it's come on leaps and bounds. Here. They've

771
00:35:07,600 --> 00:35:10,600
Speaker 2: got a thing called Zebie in Queensland. It was the

772
00:35:10,600 --> 00:35:14,799
Speaker 2: CSIRO joint thing with one of the universities. And you

773
00:35:14,840 --> 00:35:16,279
Speaker 2: walk around the crime scene now and they just have

774
00:35:16,320 --> 00:35:18,759
Speaker 2: this little wobbly camera that's sort of little square box

775
00:35:18,840 --> 00:35:22,680
Speaker 2: only about the size of oversized cube. They just have

776
00:35:22,719 --> 00:35:24,319
Speaker 2: it on this thing. They walk around. This thing is

777
00:35:24,360 --> 00:35:28,080
Speaker 2: bouncing around zebras like on a soft spring, and that's

778
00:35:28,120 --> 00:35:30,520
Speaker 2: three D imaging the whole thing. And they get like

779
00:35:31,000 --> 00:35:34,080
Speaker 2: a proper three dimensional drawing or diagram of the of

780
00:35:34,160 --> 00:35:37,400
Speaker 2: the whole room and the bridges and indoors, outdoors, a

781
00:35:37,400 --> 00:35:39,759
Speaker 2: whole lot. That's come on, massive amount of stuff. When

782
00:35:39,760 --> 00:35:42,200
Speaker 2: I started in Adelaide, we had two blocks who were

783
00:35:42,239 --> 00:35:45,560
Speaker 2: qualified draftsmen and they were drawing maps and stuff of houses.

784
00:35:45,560 --> 00:35:46,840
Speaker 2: They're going to mess them an up and do that.

785
00:35:46,920 --> 00:35:51,000
Speaker 2: Now they just go in and they got digital measuring tools.

786
00:35:51,040 --> 00:35:53,800
Speaker 2: You just use those and you can whip a room

787
00:35:54,040 --> 00:35:55,200
Speaker 2: lay and no time at all.

788
00:35:55,960 --> 00:35:58,799
Speaker 1: I say, I saw it towards the ladder part of

789
00:35:58,840 --> 00:36:00,920
Speaker 1: my career and the re creations they can do with

790
00:36:01,160 --> 00:36:04,360
Speaker 1: crime scenes and how handy that is to prove or

791
00:36:04,400 --> 00:36:06,359
Speaker 1: disprove some of the facts that.

792
00:36:06,680 --> 00:36:09,759
Speaker 2: And we've got we've got blood blood spatter analysis there

793
00:36:09,800 --> 00:36:11,840
Speaker 2: as well. From you know, they use trigonometry in some

794
00:36:11,960 --> 00:36:15,760
Speaker 2: very complex mathematics to measure the length and the angle

795
00:36:15,800 --> 00:36:18,920
Speaker 2: of the bloods blatter on walls and on floors objects,

796
00:36:18,920 --> 00:36:22,080
Speaker 2: and from that they can determine exactly what height the

797
00:36:22,120 --> 00:36:24,840
Speaker 2: person was when the blood was done, so they know

798
00:36:24,920 --> 00:36:26,479
Speaker 2: if someone was on the floor and they've been kicked

799
00:36:26,560 --> 00:36:28,880
Speaker 2: or stomped on after they've lost some blood, or if

800
00:36:28,880 --> 00:36:31,000
Speaker 2: they're halfway down and maybe they're in a headlock and

801
00:36:31,040 --> 00:36:34,120
Speaker 2: someone's pumbling them, making them determine all that sort of stuff.

802
00:36:34,120 --> 00:36:36,319
Speaker 2: Now we're using this very well, like to me, it's

803
00:36:36,360 --> 00:36:39,680
Speaker 2: complex mathematics, but calculators and they measure all that the

804
00:36:39,719 --> 00:36:40,640
Speaker 2: stringlines and stuff.

805
00:36:40,640 --> 00:36:46,560
Speaker 1: And we had the pathologists Roger Bayart who from South

806
00:36:46,600 --> 00:36:50,200
Speaker 1: Australia based in South Australia and talking about some of

807
00:36:50,239 --> 00:36:52,360
Speaker 1: the things that they used to rely on from a

808
00:36:52,400 --> 00:36:54,520
Speaker 1: pathology point of view. Now that you can scan the

809
00:36:54,520 --> 00:36:57,400
Speaker 1: bodies and all that, that's changing the thinking of you know,

810
00:36:57,480 --> 00:36:59,759
Speaker 1: a stab wound, what the stab wound would look like.

811
00:37:00,760 --> 00:37:03,200
Speaker 1: I remember turning up the post more thans with the

812
00:37:03,280 --> 00:37:07,760
Speaker 1: knife and putting the knife near the people. That looks

813
00:37:07,800 --> 00:37:10,160
Speaker 1: like we take a photo with a scale next to it. Yeah,

814
00:37:10,200 --> 00:37:12,400
Speaker 1: but yeah, great improvements.

815
00:37:12,560 --> 00:37:15,359
Speaker 2: Massive improvement technologies has been great in the forensic field

816
00:37:15,360 --> 00:37:17,759
Speaker 2: in that sense. We don't use film anymore and we

817
00:37:17,880 --> 00:37:21,680
Speaker 2: just keep taking photos now until the memory car gets full,

818
00:37:21,760 --> 00:37:23,640
Speaker 2: you know, and we can see what we've got. And

819
00:37:23,680 --> 00:37:26,120
Speaker 2: when I started there was you had to take the

820
00:37:26,160 --> 00:37:27,480
Speaker 2: picture on the film and it might be a weak

821
00:37:27,480 --> 00:37:29,600
Speaker 2: before you found it where it came out, and if

822
00:37:29,640 --> 00:37:31,000
Speaker 2: it hadn't worked out, you buggered.

823
00:37:31,360 --> 00:37:36,279
Speaker 1: Well. The advantage of saving people going into a crime

824
00:37:36,320 --> 00:37:37,840
Speaker 1: scene because you want to have a look before the

825
00:37:37,840 --> 00:37:41,839
Speaker 1: photos were developed or now okay, this is a crime

826
00:37:41,840 --> 00:37:45,360
Speaker 1: scene that you need less people going in there, less contamination.

827
00:37:45,440 --> 00:37:50,000
Speaker 2: I've had men lying dead on a roadway hit run

828
00:37:50,040 --> 00:37:53,680
Speaker 2: from a car accident, and I've had him identified in

829
00:37:53,719 --> 00:37:56,239
Speaker 2: twenty minutes. Just go up and photograph his thumb with

830
00:37:57,719 --> 00:37:59,960
Speaker 2: the appropriate sticker and things next to it, and then

831
00:38:00,280 --> 00:38:02,160
Speaker 2: put that in my digital camera, load into my laptop

832
00:38:02,160 --> 00:38:03,800
Speaker 2: in the car because all the notes now on laptops

833
00:38:03,800 --> 00:38:06,360
Speaker 2: in Queensland. Ring the fingerprint office and say, I'm just

834
00:38:06,360 --> 00:38:08,200
Speaker 2: sent you this job. Can you rush it through because

835
00:38:08,200 --> 00:38:10,160
Speaker 2: he's he's dead, he's here, We need to find out

836
00:38:10,160 --> 00:38:11,400
Speaker 2: where he lives, who he is, and we can do

837
00:38:11,440 --> 00:38:14,640
Speaker 2: this stuff. Yep, no worries. So twenty minutes later they

838
00:38:14,719 --> 00:38:16,480
Speaker 2: bring me back. Yes, it's this bloke and he's this high,

839
00:38:16,520 --> 00:38:18,239
Speaker 2: he's got this color hair and all those things.

840
00:38:18,280 --> 00:38:21,560
Speaker 1: I think it's swinging the pendulum in favor of the cops.

841
00:38:21,920 --> 00:38:23,960
Speaker 1: Like to get away of a crime is a lot

842
00:38:24,000 --> 00:38:28,000
Speaker 1: more complicated these days than it was in the past.

843
00:38:28,120 --> 00:38:30,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, crooks, you it'll be a lot better now, even

844
00:38:30,640 --> 00:38:33,520
Speaker 2: just dropping some sweatings and depending on the circumstances, you know,

845
00:38:33,680 --> 00:38:35,880
Speaker 2: I beat the sweat might be enough for them. They

846
00:38:35,960 --> 00:38:38,560
Speaker 2: love wearing their baseball caps or their beanies and they

847
00:38:38,680 --> 00:38:41,040
Speaker 2: leave them behind. You might as well just leave me

848
00:38:41,080 --> 00:38:42,840
Speaker 2: in name and address. If you can leave me a

849
00:38:42,880 --> 00:38:44,719
Speaker 2: baseball cap, you know, with a sweat band it or

850
00:38:44,800 --> 00:38:46,959
Speaker 2: beanie and stuff. You take your hair in DNA.

851
00:38:47,440 --> 00:38:50,040
Speaker 1: Man. The people have been caught because they've discarded the

852
00:38:50,040 --> 00:38:52,360
Speaker 1: Bella club or the baseball.

853
00:38:51,960 --> 00:38:53,360
Speaker 2: Cap and clean up after yourself.

854
00:38:55,040 --> 00:38:59,799
Speaker 1: Another murder that you said that it really left an

855
00:38:59,840 --> 00:39:02,959
Speaker 1: end packed on. That was Carline Ward.

856
00:39:03,320 --> 00:39:10,080
Speaker 2: Oh, Carline and Adelaide Ward. She's still unsolved to this day.

857
00:39:10,120 --> 00:39:13,720
Speaker 2: I would say she's probably still the most horrendous killing

858
00:39:13,719 --> 00:39:16,400
Speaker 2: I've been involved in. Made us pit a side the

859
00:39:16,400 --> 00:39:19,320
Speaker 2: way that she was killed. And I won't say because

860
00:39:19,320 --> 00:39:22,760
Speaker 2: it's still not solved. I won't say the exact method,

861
00:39:23,000 --> 00:39:26,560
Speaker 2: but it was brutal. It was really quite vicious, very

862
00:39:26,640 --> 00:39:29,680
Speaker 2: very vicious killing of her. And there was literally a

863
00:39:29,719 --> 00:39:31,520
Speaker 2: page I reckon it was an a four page long

864
00:39:31,520 --> 00:39:34,080
Speaker 2: of potential suspects for her. Because the lifestyle she was

865
00:39:34,160 --> 00:39:36,000
Speaker 2: leading apart from being involved in drugs, she was a

866
00:39:36,040 --> 00:39:38,759
Speaker 2: sex worker and doing things like that to try and

867
00:39:38,760 --> 00:39:41,279
Speaker 2: make ends meet. It was almost an impossible task to

868
00:39:41,280 --> 00:39:43,080
Speaker 2: find who killed her. But there is still a big reward.

869
00:39:43,120 --> 00:39:45,239
Speaker 2: If anyone was listening and does have some information, I'm

870
00:39:45,239 --> 00:39:46,960
Speaker 2: sure the family would like to know.

871
00:39:47,239 --> 00:39:47,399
Speaker 1: Oh.

872
00:39:47,520 --> 00:39:49,359
Speaker 2: I was up in Queensland. I thought they'd solved. At

873
00:39:49,400 --> 00:39:50,719
Speaker 2: one point I got a phone call from one of

874
00:39:50,719 --> 00:39:52,759
Speaker 2: the detectives said, I do you remember this job? Yes,

875
00:39:52,800 --> 00:39:55,640
Speaker 2: I do. I took a re' talking about DNA. I

876
00:39:55,680 --> 00:39:58,160
Speaker 2: took a small droplet of blood from a pair of shoes.

877
00:39:58,200 --> 00:40:00,440
Speaker 2: Apparently at that scene he told me this. I couldn't

878
00:40:00,440 --> 00:40:03,799
Speaker 2: remember it, and they had to analyzed and they had

879
00:40:03,800 --> 00:40:06,800
Speaker 2: come up with a potential suspect from that drop of blood.

880
00:40:07,040 --> 00:40:08,880
Speaker 2: But then I've heard nothing more, so I think nothing

881
00:40:08,920 --> 00:40:11,360
Speaker 2: came from that. Maybe the personal applause will excuse at

882
00:40:11,360 --> 00:40:12,520
Speaker 2: that stage, but yeah.

883
00:40:12,560 --> 00:40:15,359
Speaker 1: Well she I think she was thirty five years old

884
00:40:15,480 --> 00:40:18,719
Speaker 1: and I was found there by her sixteen sixteen.

885
00:40:18,440 --> 00:40:20,439
Speaker 2: Years that's right. Yeah, he was a subject at one point,

886
00:40:20,480 --> 00:40:22,279
Speaker 2: and then of course a number of his friends. But

887
00:40:22,320 --> 00:40:24,360
Speaker 2: remember the house had no power. She was doing it

888
00:40:24,480 --> 00:40:27,200
Speaker 2: very tough, like no light bulbs in half the house,

889
00:40:27,239 --> 00:40:29,120
Speaker 2: you know, we had to keep moving light bulb. We

890
00:40:29,200 --> 00:40:32,080
Speaker 2: bought our own lights in to do that, and of

891
00:40:32,080 --> 00:40:34,160
Speaker 2: course back in those days there were just those big

892
00:40:34,200 --> 00:40:37,320
Speaker 2: collision lights we had to bring in which generate heat,

893
00:40:37,520 --> 00:40:40,120
Speaker 2: and that didn't assist the Fingo Breau. When they came

894
00:40:40,160 --> 00:40:42,720
Speaker 2: in after us to do it, they said they probably

895
00:40:42,800 --> 00:40:44,080
Speaker 2: dried out some of the prints a bit because of

896
00:40:44,080 --> 00:40:45,839
Speaker 2: the heat in the room. But you have no choice.

897
00:40:45,840 --> 00:40:47,200
Speaker 2: You can't work in the dark completely.

898
00:40:47,480 --> 00:40:51,200
Speaker 1: Given given the things that you've seen and without because

899
00:40:51,200 --> 00:40:53,920
Speaker 1: it's SEL's unsolved, so we won't break down the details

900
00:40:53,920 --> 00:40:55,719
Speaker 1: of what you know about the crime scene. But what

901
00:40:55,800 --> 00:40:58,239
Speaker 1: was it about that crime scene that stuck with you?

902
00:40:58,560 --> 00:41:00,279
Speaker 2: I think it was just the brutality of it, just

903
00:41:00,320 --> 00:41:03,080
Speaker 2: the way that her house had been wrecked, and how

904
00:41:03,160 --> 00:41:05,879
Speaker 2: she was presumably a lady, it was doing it very

905
00:41:05,880 --> 00:41:09,720
Speaker 2: tough and wasn't but she her lifestyle was in that

906
00:41:09,880 --> 00:41:13,879
Speaker 2: sort of general field of associates. It's just one they've

907
00:41:13,920 --> 00:41:15,719
Speaker 2: never been able to solve. But her house just a

908
00:41:15,840 --> 00:41:19,520
Speaker 2: all every day what are you having in Sydney Housing

909
00:41:19,520 --> 00:41:23,120
Speaker 2: Commissioner isn't generally public housing? Public housing in one of

910
00:41:23,160 --> 00:41:26,759
Speaker 2: these public housing type things. I think at one point

911
00:41:26,880 --> 00:41:29,280
Speaker 2: when I was photographing, went to the toilet and didn't

912
00:41:29,280 --> 00:41:31,040
Speaker 2: even have toilet paper. It was just you know, squares

913
00:41:31,080 --> 00:41:32,960
Speaker 2: of newspaper cut up and sort of stuff. She was

914
00:41:32,960 --> 00:41:36,399
Speaker 2: doing things really pretty tough. And light bulbs. She must

915
00:41:36,400 --> 00:41:38,160
Speaker 2: have either been moving around and just didn't bother any

916
00:41:38,239 --> 00:41:41,320
Speaker 2: lights in the house. Half the light bulbs were missing.

917
00:41:41,640 --> 00:41:45,120
Speaker 1: It's sad, strange house. Some things just stick with you.

918
00:41:47,680 --> 00:41:49,680
Speaker 1: We've got a lot of murders to talk about. But

919
00:41:49,719 --> 00:41:51,280
Speaker 1: other type of work that you do as a crime

920
00:41:51,280 --> 00:41:55,400
Speaker 1: scene officer plantations, you houses.

921
00:41:55,520 --> 00:41:58,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, in the early days of certainly in South Australia,

922
00:41:58,360 --> 00:41:59,759
Speaker 2: we used to go all over the state looking for

923
00:42:00,280 --> 00:42:02,360
Speaker 2: mainly cannabis s crops. Back in those days they were

924
00:42:02,360 --> 00:42:05,520
Speaker 2: growing in glasshouses. You go to the northern Sumbers of

925
00:42:05,520 --> 00:42:08,080
Speaker 2: Adelaide and there was a lot of families would have

926
00:42:08,200 --> 00:42:11,919
Speaker 2: glasshouses growing cucumbers and tomatoes and things. But sometimes every

927
00:42:11,960 --> 00:42:15,319
Speaker 2: second row would be a row tomatoes and the next

928
00:42:15,400 --> 00:42:18,120
Speaker 2: row would be cannabis, and just all through and you'd

929
00:42:18,120 --> 00:42:20,799
Speaker 2: be talking forty to fifty meters long some of these things,

930
00:42:20,800 --> 00:42:24,439
Speaker 2: and there was just one hundreds and hundreds surprise tomatoes. Yeah,

931
00:42:24,440 --> 00:42:27,200
Speaker 2: that's right. Yeah, So they were often massing in that.

932
00:42:27,840 --> 00:42:30,920
Speaker 2: And then you know some wild crops in the national

933
00:42:30,960 --> 00:42:33,799
Speaker 2: parks and just people just find big paddocks for forest areas,

934
00:42:33,840 --> 00:42:36,480
Speaker 2: they just grow them in there. I'm going to the

935
00:42:36,600 --> 00:42:38,640
Speaker 2: bottom of the orp Pinsuer. At one time there's been

936
00:42:38,680 --> 00:42:41,440
Speaker 2: a fire and the Rural Fire Service had gone in

937
00:42:41,440 --> 00:42:43,000
Speaker 2: and put the fire out and they'd traced it back,

938
00:42:43,320 --> 00:42:45,880
Speaker 2: so they found this makeshift camps up. This caravan had

939
00:42:46,000 --> 00:42:48,960
Speaker 2: old kerosene fridge, so the kerosine fridge was the reason

940
00:42:49,400 --> 00:42:52,239
Speaker 2: it had caught from the bush. Fried started and there

941
00:42:52,280 --> 00:42:55,279
Speaker 2: were ten or nine, nine hundred and something of these

942
00:42:55,280 --> 00:42:58,440
Speaker 2: little jiffy pot seedlings, all in trays, all spread out

943
00:42:58,480 --> 00:43:01,160
Speaker 2: in different enclosures with rabbit fences around them and stuff

944
00:43:01,200 --> 00:43:04,400
Speaker 2: like that. I thought, well, that's that's interesting. So it

945
00:43:04,480 --> 00:43:06,359
Speaker 2: was just on just nearly ten thousands. I think we've

946
00:43:06,560 --> 00:43:08,399
Speaker 2: just worked on ten thousand of them. So we loaded

947
00:43:08,440 --> 00:43:10,240
Speaker 2: them all up, took them all back, and that obviously

948
00:43:10,239 --> 00:43:13,960
Speaker 2: became quite a major inquiry some of them. Some of

949
00:43:13,960 --> 00:43:16,279
Speaker 2: them looked like they were cannabis, you can tell, and

950
00:43:16,360 --> 00:43:19,080
Speaker 2: others weren't. So we made a plan. We took a

951
00:43:19,120 --> 00:43:22,239
Speaker 2: representative sample of these trays and I put them in

952
00:43:22,239 --> 00:43:23,960
Speaker 2: my in my friensic car and I drove it back

953
00:43:24,000 --> 00:43:25,959
Speaker 2: to Cadana. It was a two hours two hour drive,

954
00:43:26,560 --> 00:43:29,439
Speaker 2: and some of them had little little sprouts on them,

955
00:43:29,640 --> 00:43:31,279
Speaker 2: so I think the following day I drove them to

956
00:43:31,280 --> 00:43:33,719
Speaker 2: Adelaide to the botanists and said, tell me what these are.

957
00:43:33,840 --> 00:43:35,080
Speaker 2: And they had a look at them and he said,

958
00:43:35,280 --> 00:43:37,520
Speaker 2: I can't tell exactly what they are. I said, why not,

959
00:43:37,640 --> 00:43:40,239
Speaker 2: They're plants. You're a botanist. Tell me that's what you do.

960
00:43:40,400 --> 00:43:42,279
Speaker 2: You're a botanist, you know. You tell me you spent

961
00:43:42,800 --> 00:43:45,200
Speaker 2: tell me you spent all these at university. You can't

962
00:43:45,200 --> 00:43:47,439
Speaker 2: have what these are? The little he said, No, he said,

963
00:43:47,440 --> 00:43:49,160
Speaker 2: because there's a He said, there's a certain point in

964
00:43:49,160 --> 00:43:51,759
Speaker 2: a plant's life where it could be anything, which I

965
00:43:51,760 --> 00:43:54,400
Speaker 2: didn't know about. Perhaps it's like human embryates. But these

966
00:43:54,440 --> 00:43:56,600
Speaker 2: little things were so small he couldn't tell me. I said, okay,

967
00:43:57,000 --> 00:44:00,520
Speaker 2: So he said, grow them and yeah, bring them back

968
00:44:01,040 --> 00:44:02,839
Speaker 2: a bit more mature and I'll have a crack.

969
00:44:02,880 --> 00:44:04,120
Speaker 1: How is your drug dealing going?

970
00:44:04,239 --> 00:44:07,719
Speaker 2: Well, that was the thing. So I went back and

971
00:44:07,800 --> 00:44:10,640
Speaker 2: told that to my detectives, and then they made inquiries

972
00:44:10,840 --> 00:44:12,960
Speaker 2: and the drug squad had said, well, you will get

973
00:44:12,960 --> 00:44:15,840
Speaker 2: you a permit. You can get a research permit. Oh okay.

974
00:44:16,680 --> 00:44:19,320
Speaker 2: I just had these in my exhibit room and watered

975
00:44:19,360 --> 00:44:21,880
Speaker 2: them and kept them going. Then I spoke to the superintendent,

976
00:44:21,920 --> 00:44:25,560
Speaker 2: Dennis Edmonds his name, he's passed away now, poor man.

977
00:44:26,239 --> 00:44:29,359
Speaker 2: He rang me. The detective superintendent of the drug short

978
00:44:29,480 --> 00:44:32,120
Speaker 2: rings me up and he says, I've got this permit

979
00:44:32,239 --> 00:44:34,040
Speaker 2: we can get you just need to keep growing them,

980
00:44:34,120 --> 00:44:36,120
Speaker 2: so I'll get the permit, okay, no worries. And then

981
00:44:36,280 --> 00:44:37,719
Speaker 2: I think you may have rang me. The followers rang

982
00:44:37,760 --> 00:44:39,600
Speaker 2: someone and said the permit's been approved. It's all good.

983
00:44:39,640 --> 00:44:41,440
Speaker 2: You're good to go. You've got a research permit, okay.

984
00:44:41,640 --> 00:44:44,080
Speaker 2: So I suddenly I become a research well, I've become

985
00:44:44,080 --> 00:44:46,560
Speaker 2: a research researcher person for the for the summer, for

986
00:44:46,600 --> 00:44:49,040
Speaker 2: the euro draining these things. So I've warded these things diligent.

987
00:44:49,080 --> 00:44:50,520
Speaker 2: I've kept little notes on it and stuff all the

988
00:44:50,560 --> 00:44:52,720
Speaker 2: way through. And then I've had to go on holiday.

989
00:44:53,160 --> 00:44:55,840
Speaker 2: So I've left strict instructions with the station senior sergeant.

990
00:44:55,880 --> 00:44:57,279
Speaker 2: I need to come in every two days and just

991
00:44:57,320 --> 00:44:58,680
Speaker 2: a little bit of water in these things. Just make

992
00:44:58,680 --> 00:44:59,279
Speaker 2: a note here on.

993
00:44:59,600 --> 00:45:01,640
Speaker 1: All the your South Australia. So we thought it were

994
00:45:01,680 --> 00:45:04,440
Speaker 1: bad in New South Wales and Queensland have had their times.

995
00:45:04,719 --> 00:45:06,200
Speaker 2: So I've had my two week holiday wherever I was

996
00:45:06,239 --> 00:45:08,239
Speaker 2: gone for and I've come back and these things in

997
00:45:08,280 --> 00:45:10,440
Speaker 2: there they're looking like proper little plants and you can

998
00:45:10,440 --> 00:45:13,280
Speaker 2: start seeing. I can see they're something look like cannabis leaves.

999
00:45:13,320 --> 00:45:15,600
Speaker 2: Some of them have died. But if you look at

1000
00:45:15,600 --> 00:45:17,239
Speaker 2: my garden, and I'm not a good gardener, at the

1001
00:45:17,239 --> 00:45:19,560
Speaker 2: best time. So out of this, I think I had

1002
00:45:19,800 --> 00:45:23,000
Speaker 2: sixteen or thirty of them or something. So I've taken them.

1003
00:45:23,000 --> 00:45:25,240
Speaker 2: Then straight back to the botaners and okay, now Tommy,

1004
00:45:25,719 --> 00:45:28,080
Speaker 2: he said, yep, they are cannabis. It's fantastic, Thank you

1005
00:45:28,160 --> 00:45:31,040
Speaker 2: very much, go back, let them die. That was it

1006
00:45:31,719 --> 00:45:34,960
Speaker 2: until the court case when and you would have had this.

1007
00:45:35,080 --> 00:45:36,520
Speaker 2: You're getting the witness box and you're sitting there and

1008
00:45:36,520 --> 00:45:39,320
Speaker 2: you're answering these questions and you suddenly the penny drops

1009
00:45:39,400 --> 00:45:41,680
Speaker 2: on which way the defense are starting to go with.

1010
00:45:42,040 --> 00:45:44,440
Speaker 2: They're trying to lead me down the path. I'm thinking

1011
00:45:44,920 --> 00:45:46,080
Speaker 2: they're going to have a crack at me for being

1012
00:45:46,120 --> 00:45:49,000
Speaker 2: a drug dealer here because I've never physically seen this permit.

1013
00:45:49,840 --> 00:45:52,480
Speaker 2: So you've done that, I said, yeah, I did. I said,

1014
00:45:52,480 --> 00:45:53,399
Speaker 2: did you see the permit?

1015
00:45:53,560 --> 00:45:53,640
Speaker 1: No?

1016
00:45:53,960 --> 00:45:55,600
Speaker 2: Do you know the contingents of the film? I said no,

1017
00:45:56,239 --> 00:46:00,640
Speaker 2: But Superintendent he rang me and he told me id right, yeah.

1018
00:46:00,960 --> 00:46:04,960
Speaker 2: So it turned out during the judgment of I think

1019
00:46:05,000 --> 00:46:06,759
Speaker 2: they got convicted there was no issue with that, but

1020
00:46:07,400 --> 00:46:10,279
Speaker 2: there is a seven page judgment that names me and

1021
00:46:10,400 --> 00:46:13,920
Speaker 2: at the time seeing this agent Spencer as technically we

1022
00:46:14,000 --> 00:46:18,120
Speaker 2: have cultivated cannabis. Against the control some active we're actually

1023
00:46:18,320 --> 00:46:19,120
Speaker 2: I'm a drug grower.

1024
00:46:19,239 --> 00:46:21,880
Speaker 1: We of course we all make we all make mistakes,

1025
00:46:21,920 --> 00:46:25,240
Speaker 1: but as long as you learn from your mistakes. Working

1026
00:46:25,280 --> 00:46:27,400
Speaker 1: South Australia covering the big area and there's a lot

1027
00:46:27,400 --> 00:46:31,000
Speaker 1: of remote locations and your work country areas. Car accidents

1028
00:46:31,040 --> 00:46:34,840
Speaker 1: too that were the ba and to me they rocked

1029
00:46:34,840 --> 00:46:37,000
Speaker 1: me more than murder scenes car accidents. I think it's

1030
00:46:37,080 --> 00:46:40,200
Speaker 1: just that it can happen to anyone. Tell us about

1031
00:46:40,280 --> 00:46:41,720
Speaker 1: some of the car accidents.

1032
00:46:41,960 --> 00:46:44,480
Speaker 2: Remember before I joined the police, I was a volunteer

1033
00:46:44,520 --> 00:46:48,040
Speaker 2: firefighter in the Country Fire Service there and because we

1034
00:46:48,040 --> 00:46:51,960
Speaker 2: were living near Gaula mostly rural, so there were a

1035
00:46:51,960 --> 00:46:54,399
Speaker 2: lot of dirt roads hence the shooting incident, those sorts

1036
00:46:54,400 --> 00:46:57,520
Speaker 2: of things, and there was I think it was a

1037
00:46:57,520 --> 00:47:01,080
Speaker 2: little small Ford laser back in those days. Had about

1038
00:47:01,239 --> 00:47:04,600
Speaker 2: four or five young teenage people at fifteen sixteen year

1039
00:47:04,640 --> 00:47:06,279
Speaker 2: olds and they've run off the road. This thing's on

1040
00:47:06,360 --> 00:47:09,640
Speaker 2: its roof and it's gone through a fence rolled a

1041
00:47:09,680 --> 00:47:11,440
Speaker 2: couple of times. So we've gone there to try and

1042
00:47:11,480 --> 00:47:13,319
Speaker 2: cut them out, and we're in there, we're trying to

1043
00:47:13,680 --> 00:47:15,480
Speaker 2: a couple of the guys are trying to cut the

1044
00:47:15,600 --> 00:47:17,160
Speaker 2: thing apart with the jaws of life and that sort

1045
00:47:17,160 --> 00:47:20,400
Speaker 2: of stuff, and we've gone inside this car that comfort

1046
00:47:20,400 --> 00:47:22,040
Speaker 2: some of them, and they literally died in our arms.

1047
00:47:22,040 --> 00:47:24,280
Speaker 2: A couple of we lost too that night, and inside

1048
00:47:24,280 --> 00:47:26,000
Speaker 2: the car. I don't know if the others made it

1049
00:47:26,080 --> 00:47:28,239
Speaker 2: or not, but there was just one of those horrendous things.

1050
00:47:28,880 --> 00:47:31,640
Speaker 2: I'm one of I'm twenty one or two years old

1051
00:47:31,640 --> 00:47:34,799
Speaker 2: at this stage. To watch these people die in your arms,

1052
00:47:34,800 --> 00:47:37,960
Speaker 2: it's very confronting. So I suppose it was always destined

1053
00:47:38,000 --> 00:47:39,719
Speaker 2: to be in forensics in some way when you.

1054
00:47:39,680 --> 00:47:46,000
Speaker 1: Think about that, processing that again, because you see such

1055
00:47:46,040 --> 00:47:49,359
Speaker 1: horrendous things, and you've seen such horrendous things. I've heard

1056
00:47:49,400 --> 00:47:51,880
Speaker 1: a lot of people say, I'm focusing.

1057
00:47:51,440 --> 00:47:52,239
Speaker 2: On doing the work.

1058
00:47:52,440 --> 00:47:55,239
Speaker 1: I've got a role to do, and it might catch

1059
00:47:55,320 --> 00:47:57,360
Speaker 1: up later, but that the particular point.

1060
00:47:57,200 --> 00:47:59,600
Speaker 2: In time, well, it was usually me. It turned out,

1061
00:48:00,120 --> 00:48:02,239
Speaker 2: did have my what I call my falling out the

1062
00:48:02,280 --> 00:48:05,440
Speaker 2: tree moment back in two thousand and nine. That's a

1063
00:48:05,719 --> 00:48:09,840
Speaker 2: nice way of Yeah, the branch snapped and I just

1064
00:48:09,880 --> 00:48:12,279
Speaker 2: fell out the tree, but I climbed back up the

1065
00:48:12,320 --> 00:48:14,080
Speaker 2: Eventually we'll.

1066
00:48:13,880 --> 00:48:15,920
Speaker 1: Talk about that further. I don't want people to think

1067
00:48:15,920 --> 00:48:17,880
Speaker 1: it's just because you've lost your drudge trade.

1068
00:48:18,600 --> 00:48:22,320
Speaker 2: A judge what the judgement compliment? He told us that it.

1069
00:48:22,200 --> 00:48:24,000
Speaker 1: Was very the judges involved.

1070
00:48:25,000 --> 00:48:27,000
Speaker 2: He said that it's not the sort of actions that

1071
00:48:27,000 --> 00:48:29,000
Speaker 2: would revile the public. He said, in fact, most of

1072
00:48:29,000 --> 00:48:30,480
Speaker 2: it would think it was quite a great deal of

1073
00:48:30,520 --> 00:48:35,080
Speaker 2: common sense judgment judgment. So he said, I'm not going

1074
00:48:35,120 --> 00:48:38,040
Speaker 2: to take any action about the unlawful stuff, and the

1075
00:48:38,080 --> 00:48:40,160
Speaker 2: evidence will be admitted because that's what they're trying to do.

1076
00:48:40,320 --> 00:48:42,960
Speaker 2: They could show that we've grown them without the actual

1077
00:48:43,080 --> 00:48:47,680
Speaker 2: permit being properly legally obtained them. Yes, because we sort

1078
00:48:47,719 --> 00:48:50,279
Speaker 2: of subverted that. When we can do this, this is

1079
00:48:50,280 --> 00:48:52,799
Speaker 2: common sense, is logical. Most of the public thought was

1080
00:48:52,880 --> 00:48:54,279
Speaker 2: the right thing, and they judge said the same things.

1081
00:48:54,320 --> 00:48:56,319
Speaker 2: I'm not throwing out because you know, these guys have

1082
00:48:56,400 --> 00:48:58,960
Speaker 2: used some common sense and practicality. Because they didn't physically

1083
00:48:58,960 --> 00:49:01,560
Speaker 2: have the permit his hand, it doesn't matter. Yeah, but yes,

1084
00:49:01,640 --> 00:49:04,279
Speaker 2: technically we did grow drug gun awfully apparently because I

1085
00:49:04,280 --> 00:49:07,080
Speaker 2: didn't have the in my hands. Yeah, same bit of paper.

1086
00:49:07,239 --> 00:49:09,960
Speaker 1: Well, I like it when the courts take it very sensible,

1087
00:49:10,320 --> 00:49:12,440
Speaker 1: common sense approach. I certainly did because I just started

1088
00:49:12,440 --> 00:49:14,279
Speaker 1: in Queensland, I didn't want to get arrested for growing drugs.

1089
00:49:14,320 --> 00:49:16,040
Speaker 1: I would have finished my Queen's o't carew very quickly.

1090
00:49:16,640 --> 00:49:18,719
Speaker 1: Although they were desperate for police at the time, well

1091
00:49:18,719 --> 00:49:20,000
Speaker 1: they were, but I was still at the academy, and

1092
00:49:20,239 --> 00:49:22,080
Speaker 1: I think days off from the academy to go and

1093
00:49:22,120 --> 00:49:24,480
Speaker 1: do it. So I hadn't going back to South Australia

1094
00:49:24,480 --> 00:49:27,479
Speaker 1: and the ten plan flew back a couple of songs

1095
00:49:27,640 --> 00:49:30,880
Speaker 1: from the Academy for different things. Any other sort of

1096
00:49:30,920 --> 00:49:34,080
Speaker 1: memorable moments in the crime scene and just the day

1097
00:49:34,120 --> 00:49:36,440
Speaker 1: to day I want to in part two we're going

1098
00:49:36,440 --> 00:49:38,719
Speaker 1: to talk about murders, and obviously I'm not going to

1099
00:49:38,760 --> 00:49:41,560
Speaker 1: let you come in here and not talk about you

1100
00:49:41,680 --> 00:49:43,560
Speaker 1: are the person that opened the first barrel and the

1101
00:49:43,600 --> 00:49:47,600
Speaker 1: infamous body in the barrel case. But any other situations

1102
00:49:47,640 --> 00:49:49,600
Speaker 1: in South South Australia.

1103
00:49:49,840 --> 00:49:51,719
Speaker 2: There's there's probably heaps when I really think about it,

1104
00:49:51,760 --> 00:49:55,239
Speaker 2: but South Australia was an interesting place to be and

1105
00:49:56,120 --> 00:49:59,120
Speaker 2: I was there in the forensic science area during what

1106
00:49:59,239 --> 00:50:01,200
Speaker 2: I consider the goal old age we had. The DNA

1107
00:50:01,400 --> 00:50:03,719
Speaker 2: was evolving. A lot of the guys that were there

1108
00:50:03,840 --> 00:50:06,200
Speaker 2: when I got there had been involved in things like

1109
00:50:06,239 --> 00:50:08,719
Speaker 2: the tru murders in their careers and stuff. I had

1110
00:50:08,719 --> 00:50:13,240
Speaker 2: some great training mentors, really fortunate in that regard world class.

1111
00:50:14,520 --> 00:50:17,360
Speaker 2: World recognized some of them in their fields of tourmark

1112
00:50:17,400 --> 00:50:20,280
Speaker 2: comparisons and that sort of stuff, so I was really lucky.

1113
00:50:21,120 --> 00:50:23,359
Speaker 2: I remember going to Ernabella once. I got a phone

1114
00:50:23,400 --> 00:50:26,120
Speaker 2: call again, you're on call phone rings at one o'clock

1115
00:50:26,120 --> 00:50:27,719
Speaker 2: in the morning, and I dragged myself out of bed.

1116
00:50:28,160 --> 00:50:29,359
Speaker 2: You've got a bit of the airport in the one

1117
00:50:29,400 --> 00:50:32,480
Speaker 2: please air wing you earn a bella, okay, thank you

1118
00:50:32,560 --> 00:50:34,520
Speaker 2: very much. Hung up, they're lying a bet of one

1119
00:50:34,680 --> 00:50:38,520
Speaker 2: thinking where what is Ernabella? So I couldn't sleep. So

1120
00:50:38,520 --> 00:50:40,319
Speaker 2: I've got out of bed and I've gone to what

1121
00:50:40,400 --> 00:50:42,640
Speaker 2: was the atlas back then, because we didn't have Google Maps,

1122
00:50:43,520 --> 00:50:45,400
Speaker 2: Google Earth. So I get the atlass out and look

1123
00:50:45,440 --> 00:50:46,839
Speaker 2: at it a bit. I think God's right up there

1124
00:50:46,840 --> 00:50:49,680
Speaker 2: at the top end of South Australia. So sure enough,

1125
00:50:50,000 --> 00:50:51,640
Speaker 2: then I go down to the airport and we get

1126
00:50:51,640 --> 00:50:53,919
Speaker 2: on the plane and fly out, and an Aboriginal fellow

1127
00:50:54,000 --> 00:50:57,160
Speaker 2: there has been killed by someone from the neighboring amateur

1128
00:50:58,080 --> 00:51:00,279
Speaker 2: sort of the community. And I'd never been in this

1129
00:51:00,360 --> 00:51:02,319
Speaker 2: far north ever in my life. This is the first

1130
00:51:02,360 --> 00:51:05,120
Speaker 2: time I've been on proper Aboriginal trouble lands, and that

1131
00:51:05,400 --> 00:51:07,440
Speaker 2: in itself was interesting to see the way they were

1132
00:51:07,440 --> 00:51:09,480
Speaker 2: living in the church. There has got no windows in it,

1133
00:51:09,560 --> 00:51:11,680
Speaker 2: nothing like there's cars have just stopped intside of the road.

1134
00:51:11,719 --> 00:51:13,920
Speaker 2: They just just left there because no fuel and they

1135
00:51:13,960 --> 00:51:15,839
Speaker 2: had an abridge and laid Then he took he took

1136
00:51:15,840 --> 00:51:17,719
Speaker 2: me under his wings. He said, come for a drive.

1137
00:51:17,800 --> 00:51:19,000
Speaker 2: So he took me from drive all we went to

1138
00:51:19,680 --> 00:51:22,440
Speaker 2: the detectives were driving across. Because you detectives don't get

1139
00:51:22,440 --> 00:51:24,000
Speaker 2: the planes. They have to drive.

1140
00:51:25,360 --> 00:51:26,080
Speaker 1: The private jets.

1141
00:51:26,080 --> 00:51:28,239
Speaker 2: So they've they've driven I think from Marla bore.

1142
00:51:28,800 --> 00:51:30,560
Speaker 1: We did look up and we see the crime scene.

1143
00:51:31,239 --> 00:51:32,400
Speaker 2: That's fine above us.

1144
00:51:32,440 --> 00:51:34,680
Speaker 1: But other than that, you know, we're not bitter, that's.

1145
00:51:34,600 --> 00:51:36,120
Speaker 2: Right, No, no, no grudges.

1146
00:51:36,360 --> 00:51:36,400
Speaker 1: No.

1147
00:51:36,640 --> 00:51:38,800
Speaker 2: I think they had to driving because they were from Marla.

1148
00:51:38,800 --> 00:51:41,920
Speaker 2: I think they maybe from Port Agusta, had driven a

1149
00:51:41,920 --> 00:51:43,640
Speaker 2: marlor board and then went on their way across. So

1150
00:51:43,680 --> 00:51:45,360
Speaker 2: we had some some time to kill what we're waiting

1151
00:51:45,360 --> 00:51:47,680
Speaker 2: for them. So he's taking me for driving. He took

1152
00:51:47,680 --> 00:51:50,040
Speaker 2: me to this like a look at point. This one

1153
00:51:50,040 --> 00:51:52,600
Speaker 2: of the high high mountain mounds in the in the town.

1154
00:51:52,960 --> 00:51:54,200
Speaker 2: And he said to me, he said look over there.

1155
00:51:54,239 --> 00:51:56,440
Speaker 2: I said look and saying he said, you see them

1156
00:51:56,520 --> 00:51:58,600
Speaker 2: hills over there, those hills on the horizon. I say, yeah,

1157
00:51:58,600 --> 00:52:01,240
Speaker 2: I can see them. This is the reason heavy Aboriginal accent.

1158
00:52:01,560 --> 00:52:03,799
Speaker 2: And he said, that's forty miles inside the territory there is.

1159
00:52:04,160 --> 00:52:05,719
Speaker 2: I thought, wow, I'm a long way from home.

1160
00:52:05,760 --> 00:52:06,040
Speaker 1: You are.

1161
00:52:07,000 --> 00:52:09,240
Speaker 2: I can see forty I can see on the horizon

1162
00:52:09,400 --> 00:52:12,160
Speaker 2: there's forty k's inside northern territory. I'm almost on the border.

1163
00:52:12,800 --> 00:52:15,640
Speaker 2: I've never never been that far remote even today. Still.

1164
00:52:15,880 --> 00:52:18,800
Speaker 1: Now, that's that's some of the experiences you can have

1165
00:52:18,920 --> 00:52:21,600
Speaker 1: in police in and I make no bones about it.

1166
00:52:21,800 --> 00:52:25,120
Speaker 1: I tried to promote people that join the police like

1167
00:52:25,239 --> 00:52:27,480
Speaker 1: some of the experiences, and they're not the type of

1168
00:52:27,560 --> 00:52:30,640
Speaker 1: experience you'd get in what let's call a normal job.

1169
00:52:30,760 --> 00:52:34,200
Speaker 1: All the different experiences that you are going out to

1170
00:52:34,239 --> 00:52:37,480
Speaker 1: a remote community like that and having look around.

1171
00:52:37,680 --> 00:52:40,239
Speaker 2: It's amazing. And I've driven a right on Lormark from

1172
00:52:40,280 --> 00:52:42,399
Speaker 2: a lovely winery in Port Lincoln, dran through the hills,

1173
00:52:42,640 --> 00:52:44,960
Speaker 2: through the streets to Port Lincoln, around roundabouts back to

1174
00:52:44,960 --> 00:52:47,319
Speaker 2: the police station, all under a little police escort. That

1175
00:52:47,360 --> 00:52:50,160
Speaker 2: stops the town. People stop and look at the mainstream

1176
00:52:50,160 --> 00:52:54,239
Speaker 2: doing I'm driving this broad I'm stolen. I'd gone to town.

1177
00:52:54,719 --> 00:52:57,600
Speaker 2: We've been into Port Lincoln to investigate now, stolen cars

1178
00:52:57,600 --> 00:52:58,160
Speaker 2: and vehicles.

1179
00:52:58,280 --> 00:53:00,440
Speaker 1: You did a lot of work with stolen vehicle I.

1180
00:53:00,400 --> 00:53:02,480
Speaker 2: Did, yeah in my early years because I had a

1181
00:53:02,480 --> 00:53:04,480
Speaker 2: bit of a car interest. Myself and one of the

1182
00:53:04,520 --> 00:53:07,480
Speaker 2: other sergeants became the go to people in South Australia

1183
00:53:07,520 --> 00:53:09,520
Speaker 2: to identify stolen cars back then.

1184
00:53:09,600 --> 00:53:12,680
Speaker 1: Has that has that changed now, like with the way

1185
00:53:12,760 --> 00:53:13,440
Speaker 1: cars are now?

1186
00:53:13,680 --> 00:53:17,480
Speaker 2: I think so. I certainly not aware of as much happening.

1187
00:53:17,840 --> 00:53:22,080
Speaker 2: Certainly in the Queensland context. They've still got vehicle examiners there,

1188
00:53:22,160 --> 00:53:24,000
Speaker 2: but usually when they've been burnt out and stuff like that.

1189
00:53:24,040 --> 00:53:26,080
Speaker 2: But we were having a really bad run with the

1190
00:53:26,120 --> 00:53:29,759
Speaker 2: old cars, and I say old, the early model Commodorees

1191
00:53:29,760 --> 00:53:31,319
Speaker 2: and those sorts of things, and the ones before them,

1192
00:53:32,000 --> 00:53:34,520
Speaker 2: the Falcons, back when engine numbers and a lot of

1193
00:53:35,120 --> 00:53:37,640
Speaker 2: were hands stamped and so then numbers were hands stamped

1194
00:53:37,760 --> 00:53:41,640
Speaker 2: or were just journal stuff. Now it's all dot matrix

1195
00:53:41,719 --> 00:53:44,120
Speaker 2: numbering and computerized and yeah, so we used to do

1196
00:53:44,160 --> 00:53:44,840
Speaker 2: a lot of that stuff.

1197
00:53:45,560 --> 00:53:47,520
Speaker 1: A welding course there was a real skill to it.

1198
00:53:47,560 --> 00:53:52,879
Speaker 1: But I remember working with Ade, the squad specialist, and

1199
00:53:53,280 --> 00:53:55,399
Speaker 1: he could just what he could find out from a car.

1200
00:53:55,960 --> 00:53:57,680
Speaker 1: It blew me away. It was a real skill.

1201
00:53:57,840 --> 00:54:00,319
Speaker 2: There was some stuff we resolved in the that we

1202
00:54:00,360 --> 00:54:02,680
Speaker 2: would lose, rather lose a court case than give up

1203
00:54:02,680 --> 00:54:04,839
Speaker 2: some of the methodologies we would use because they were

1204
00:54:04,840 --> 00:54:09,160
Speaker 2: that special. All manufacturers, they would tell you these things,

1205
00:54:09,200 --> 00:54:11,480
Speaker 2: and they had to track their cars, so they do

1206
00:54:11,520 --> 00:54:13,879
Speaker 2: certain things to them, and you've got to know where

1207
00:54:13,880 --> 00:54:16,279
Speaker 2: these things are and where to look and what they mean,

1208
00:54:16,760 --> 00:54:19,879
Speaker 2: how to interpret some of these little marks. So rather

1209
00:54:19,880 --> 00:54:22,520
Speaker 2: than give our methodologies that in court, we said we'd

1210
00:54:22,520 --> 00:54:24,040
Speaker 2: lose one or two if need be, but we're not

1211
00:54:24,040 --> 00:54:26,200
Speaker 2: going to tell exactly how we identified that car. And

1212
00:54:26,320 --> 00:54:27,920
Speaker 2: usually once we've made the idea, we would then go

1213
00:54:27,960 --> 00:54:30,120
Speaker 2: and find the owner that stolen vehicle and say, come

1214
00:54:30,160 --> 00:54:31,359
Speaker 2: and have a look at this car. And they go, oh,

1215
00:54:31,600 --> 00:54:33,719
Speaker 2: that thing there, that's the scratch from my wife when

1216
00:54:33,760 --> 00:54:36,040
Speaker 2: she hit it with a shopping trolley, or that's my

1217
00:54:36,080 --> 00:54:37,960
Speaker 2: cigarette burn on the front seat, and things like that.

1218
00:54:38,000 --> 00:54:41,160
Speaker 2: They would identify unique things like that, So we'd often

1219
00:54:41,239 --> 00:54:43,920
Speaker 2: use those statements and say the car's been identified because

1220
00:54:43,920 --> 00:54:47,560
Speaker 2: of this. Yeah, the methodology wouldn't talk about. Yeah, that

1221
00:54:47,880 --> 00:54:51,600
Speaker 2: makes sense. I guess it's like most things in policing homicides,

1222
00:54:51,600 --> 00:54:53,360
Speaker 2: you probably don't give all your methodolog.

1223
00:54:54,239 --> 00:54:58,640
Speaker 1: It's funny because now everything's readily accessible, is on the

1224
00:54:58,840 --> 00:55:01,799
Speaker 1: on the internet, or shows and all that. So I

1225
00:55:01,840 --> 00:55:04,160
Speaker 1: think sometimes the crooks think we've got skills that we

1226
00:55:04,200 --> 00:55:06,439
Speaker 1: haven't actually got. You can use to your.

1227
00:55:06,360 --> 00:55:09,879
Speaker 2: Advantage, friendship people like that. The CSI show is great

1228
00:55:09,880 --> 00:55:12,600
Speaker 2: for our reputation. I have profile lifted dramatically. We're getting

1229
00:55:12,719 --> 00:55:15,080
Speaker 2: hundreds of requests for you know, to come and talk

1230
00:55:15,120 --> 00:55:16,319
Speaker 2: to just tell us what you do and those sort

1231
00:55:16,360 --> 00:55:18,919
Speaker 2: of things. And I've had detectives and particularly in Queens

1232
00:55:18,920 --> 00:55:21,480
Speaker 2: and who would sit down with a crook and they go, mate,

1233
00:55:21,480 --> 00:55:24,319
Speaker 2: this guy's from forensics. He's going to examine you in

1234
00:55:24,320 --> 00:55:26,560
Speaker 2: a second. You might as well just tell me now.

1235
00:55:27,040 --> 00:55:29,600
Speaker 2: And sometimes I've actually gone you are all right?

1236
00:55:29,640 --> 00:55:32,440
Speaker 1: Then I'm not going to admit I've ever said to

1237
00:55:32,520 --> 00:55:34,280
Speaker 1: a suspect you've watched the SI.

1238
00:55:34,280 --> 00:55:36,520
Speaker 2: Haven't you. Yeah, And that was what it was all about.

1239
00:55:36,560 --> 00:55:38,799
Speaker 2: And some of them actually pfferently rolled over and we're

1240
00:55:38,840 --> 00:55:39,680
Speaker 2: going to find it anyway.

1241
00:55:39,840 --> 00:55:44,239
Speaker 1: But that's good pressure. Let's cut to the chase. Legitimate pressure. Okay, well,

1242
00:55:44,400 --> 00:55:46,719
Speaker 1: we'll take a break when we come back. I'm going

1243
00:55:46,800 --> 00:55:48,480
Speaker 1: to and as I said, you're not You're not going

1244
00:55:48,520 --> 00:55:50,640
Speaker 1: to get in here without me talking about the baronies

1245
00:55:50,680 --> 00:55:53,959
Speaker 1: in the Barrel case because the horrendous nature of that

1246
00:55:54,200 --> 00:55:57,600
Speaker 1: crime and it's your reference that everyone knows about it.

1247
00:55:57,640 --> 00:56:02,040
Speaker 1: And then of course that movie Snowtown, which was really captured.

1248
00:56:02,480 --> 00:56:04,720
Speaker 1: I've got to say, out of movies that I've watched,

1249
00:56:04,760 --> 00:56:07,520
Speaker 1: that's one that it was almost too heavy for to

1250
00:56:07,600 --> 00:56:07,960
Speaker 1: sit through.

1251
00:56:08,000 --> 00:56:08,960
Speaker 2: It's a hard watch.

1252
00:56:09,080 --> 00:56:12,919
Speaker 1: It was just so grim. We talk about that. There's

1253
00:56:12,960 --> 00:56:15,520
Speaker 1: another interesting case I want to touch on that you

1254
00:56:15,800 --> 00:56:18,600
Speaker 1: responded to, and that was the murder of a former

1255
00:56:18,960 --> 00:56:24,000
Speaker 1: KGB Russian KGB agent. That's got some twists and twists

1256
00:56:24,040 --> 00:56:26,520
Speaker 1: and turns. Other things that you did as a crime

1257
00:56:26,560 --> 00:56:30,919
Speaker 1: scene officer, the accident that dream World and the Sea

1258
00:56:30,960 --> 00:56:35,040
Speaker 1: World helicopter crashes that you were involved in as well.

1259
00:56:35,440 --> 00:56:37,640
Speaker 1: I also want to talk about, and I've spoken to

1260
00:56:37,640 --> 00:56:40,920
Speaker 1: you before and you're happy to discuss it, that eventually

1261
00:56:40,960 --> 00:56:43,719
Speaker 1: this all caught up on you and the battles that

1262
00:56:43,719 --> 00:56:46,640
Speaker 1: you've had for mental health, and also touch on what

1263
00:56:46,640 --> 00:56:49,960
Speaker 1: you're doing now to help first responders and their families.

1264
00:56:50,000 --> 00:56:54,440
Speaker 1: So plenty to talk about. That's just scratching the surface.

1265
00:56:54,640 --> 00:57:01,680
Speaker 1: We'll have a break and we'll be back short