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Speaker 1: Professor John Reid. Welcome back to the podcast.

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Speaker 2: Ah, well, good to be here.

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Speaker 3: We had such a good conversation last time that I

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Speaker 3: thought we should revisit it. Some people may have heard

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Speaker 3: the previous conversation, but we've got lots of new listeners

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Speaker 3: and I think there's new things that we'll talk about.

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Speaker 3: We'll obviously go over a little bit of the old

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Speaker 3: staff because it's really quite enlightening. But how long have

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Speaker 3: you been studying mental health for in general?

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Speaker 2: Oh? Probably about thirty years now. I mean I worked

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Speaker 2: as a psychologist for some years before that, but probably

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Speaker 2: researching twenty five thirty years.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, And why did you go from working as a

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Speaker 3: psychologist to being a researcher in the area.

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Speaker 1: What tips did it well?

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Speaker 2: Well? To be honest, I got pretty frustrated with trying

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Speaker 2: to work within mental health systems that really were making

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Speaker 2: at best, not helping people and at worst making them

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Speaker 2: worse off. So I was getting more and more frustrating

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Speaker 2: to try and it felt like I was sort of

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Speaker 2: maybe able to rescue one or two people from the

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Speaker 2: system from time to time, but trying to do this

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Speaker 2: therapy with people that were sort of drugged up to

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Speaker 2: the eyeballs trying to work against the sort of philosophy

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Speaker 2: that people were being told there's something wrong with their brains,

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Speaker 2: that they have an illness in them, and then wondering

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Speaker 2: why people don't get better. And I just couldn't see

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Speaker 2: spending the next thirty four years sort of working like that.

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Speaker 2: It is hard enough to work anyway, trying to connect

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Speaker 2: to people who are really distressed. I do, but that's

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Speaker 2: all I ever wanted to do. That was my passion,

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Speaker 2: That's what I wanted to do, but it was just

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Speaker 2: too frustrating. So I thought I need to find some

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Speaker 2: way to try and influence that system rather than just

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Speaker 2: work with individual people, which I mix things about. I'm

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Speaker 2: not missing.

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Speaker 1: That. You've done pretty important work.

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Speaker 3: Now you have said in you've gone on record saying

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Speaker 3: that psychiatric diagnosis are scientifically meaningless.

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Speaker 1: Can you walk us through what do you mean by that?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, well, it gets it gets a bit technical because

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Speaker 2: we have to start thinking about constructs like reliability and validity.

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Speaker 2: So just very briefly and simply, reliability is the ability

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Speaker 2: of two or more experts to agree on what's in

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Speaker 2: front of them. So we're then studies where you have

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Speaker 2: two or two or three psychiatrist, psychologists or whatever looking

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Speaker 2: at an individual patient or video or whatever and seeing

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Speaker 2: if they come up with the same diagnosis. And most

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Speaker 2: of the time they've done. That's a very little reliability

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Speaker 2: to the to the to the constructs. And even if

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Speaker 2: they might have some agreement, there is obviously some level

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Speaker 2: of agreement where it's not very high that people meet

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Speaker 2: the criteria from more than one diagnosis almost all the time.

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Speaker 2: So that's starting. I'll just give one example. In my

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Speaker 2: own air of schizophrenia. You need there are five basic

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Speaker 2: types of symptoms, doesn't really matter what they are, but

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Speaker 2: you only need two of them to get the diagnosis.

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Speaker 2: So you, Paul might have let's say, hallucinations and delusions

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Speaker 2: and nothing else. I might have thought disorder and catatonia

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Speaker 2: and nothing else. So we have nothing in common, but

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Speaker 2: we get the same diagnosis. And that's called in scientific terms,

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Speaker 2: that's called a disjunctive category. In any other, any other

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Speaker 2: discipline other than psychiatry, I would suggest that would immediately

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Speaker 2: be thrown out as non scientific. And there's an examples

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Speaker 2: like that. So that's a reliability bit and Qruestionally, the

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Speaker 2: validity part is, does does a construct relate to what

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Speaker 2: it's supposed to relate to, So against famous schizophrenia, if

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Speaker 2: there is such a construct, it's supposed to have a

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Speaker 2: clearly identifiable biological cause, which it which it doesn't. It's

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Speaker 2: good to have a consistent prognosis or outcome, which it doesn't.

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Speaker 2: It has to have. It has to determine what as

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Speaker 2: an effective treatment, which it doesn't. So they're just not

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Speaker 2: scientific constructs. I have to emphasize this does not mean

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Speaker 2: I don't think people have lots of symptom. You know, yeah,

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Speaker 2: I'm not seeing people because the people are telling me, oh,

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Speaker 2: you say schizophrenia doesn't exist, John, or don't you realize

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Speaker 2: people have this? And of course I realize it that

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Speaker 2: people have hallucinations and terrifying thoughts and everything. I'm just

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Speaker 2: saying it doesn't help us understand them by calling them

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Speaker 2: something and then saying this thing is what's causing it.

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Speaker 2: And just to finish finish off the the well, let's

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Speaker 2: take depression as a more common sort of diagnosis. We're

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Speaker 2: told that people we diagnose people with this thing called depression,

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Speaker 2: and then we say depression is caused by this thing

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Speaker 2: they have called depression. So it's like the question it's

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Speaker 2: causing the depression, it's it's meaningless. It's just it's just

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Speaker 2: a word. Even if it was a scientifically reliable and

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Speaker 2: valid construct. The idea that these words explain anything is

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Speaker 2: it's just a bit but silly. They don't. They're just descriptors,

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Speaker 2: and they're very bad descriptives at that.

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Speaker 3: And look that gets it there because if we compare

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Speaker 3: that to the rest of medicine, like if if I

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Speaker 3: go to the doctor with an issue and he tests,

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Speaker 3: say he tests my blood sugar and goes, you have diabetes,

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Speaker 3: or test my blood pressure, goes you have hypertension, or

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Speaker 3: you know, I get screen and it's like you have cancer.

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Speaker 3: So there are clear biological signatures, repeatable ones where different people.

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Speaker 1: Can look at it and go yes.

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Speaker 3: How many of those psychiatric conditions in the DSM have

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Speaker 3: a clear, consistent biological signature virtually none.

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Speaker 2: I mean it depends whether you include things like dementia

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Speaker 2: and as parts of psychiatricy. If you do, clearly that's

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Speaker 2: a biological yes. But practically all the diagnosis in the

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Speaker 2: DSM have no biological marker to them, which is astonishing

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Speaker 2: because the basis of the medical model is that it's

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Speaker 2: trying to tell us that our distress, whether it's depression

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Speaker 2: or anxiety or worry or craziness or whatever, it's caused

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Speaker 2: by biological phenomena, biogenetic etiologies. But there is just no

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Speaker 2: evidence for that. And the DSM doesn't even claim to

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Speaker 2: have any biological markers for anything in it.

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Speaker 1: So this is this is going to be quite confusing

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Speaker 1: for people.

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Speaker 3: Right, So the DSM, there are there's been a number

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Speaker 3: of iterations of the DSM, the Diagnosis Statistical Manuals. So

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Speaker 3: tell people about, you know, how that's created and what

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Speaker 3: the changes have been over time with each release.

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Speaker 2: Okay, well we're not times through the old history, but

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Speaker 2: will start from the thirteen fifty two was the first one,

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Speaker 2: and it was about a tenth of the length of

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Speaker 2: the latest one. There was only about I think I

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Speaker 2: can't remember exactly, about eight or nine constructs there. And

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Speaker 2: most importantly, they were called reactions. So you had depressive reaction,

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Speaker 2: who had anxiety reaction, psychotic reaction. They weren't disorders or

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Speaker 2: illnesses at that point. They were understood at that point

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Speaker 2: in history to be reactions to life events, and they

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Speaker 2: were called that. And at that point in history, the

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Speaker 2: American Psychiatric Association was run by the more psychoanalytics psychodynamic psychiatrists.

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Speaker 2: After that, quite quickly after that, with the introduction of

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Speaker 2: the early psychiatric drugs, the antipsychotics in the in the

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Speaker 2: nineteen fifties, biological psychiatry kind of took over the American

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Speaker 2: Psychiatric Association, and by the time of the scent two

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Speaker 2: and they were all disorders, and they've been disorders ever since.

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Speaker 2: And the DSM just gets longer and longer and longer.

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Speaker 2: Here it is, here, it is today, And I don't

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Speaker 2: know if I can sort.

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Speaker 1: Of yeah, that's a jumping Jesus.

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Speaker 2: It is, I'll tell you exactly. It is nine hundred

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Speaker 2: and forty seven pages long. And as I say to

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Speaker 2: my students, if you can't find yourself in here at

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Speaker 2: least three times times, then you really need to get

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Speaker 2: a life. And yes, it's funny, thank you, But but

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Speaker 2: also what I'm trying to get across is that it's

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Speaker 2: just about everything is pathologized. Yea being not being upset,

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Speaker 2: being not upset enough being to upset. There's a mathematics disorder,

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Speaker 2: there's naughtiness is now conduct disorder.

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Speaker 1: It's opposite oppositional defiance disorder.

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Speaker 2: Well, that's well, that's a good one. The difference between

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Speaker 2: conduct disorder and oppositional defined disorder. Conduct disorders being naughty,

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Speaker 2: oppositional defined disorder, it's been naughty and telling your teacher

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Speaker 2: to f off from nate and control you. My favorite

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Speaker 2: one is intermittent explosive disorder to diagnose men who are

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Speaker 2: not violent all the time, but just violent vacation. It's

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Speaker 2: it's I mean, it is funny, but it isn't because

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Speaker 2: it's it's doing a lot of disservice to people's pathologizing

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Speaker 2: people and somehow communicating to them that there's something wrong

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Speaker 2: with them.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, now then.

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Speaker 2: Having understandable reactions to their life circumstances.

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Speaker 1: So you're not the only one who's in this camp.

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Speaker 3: Professor Francis, who authored the DSM four I believe, come

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Speaker 3: out recently and said that he thinks that we have

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Speaker 3: an over diagnosis problem and that it's ever loosening our

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Speaker 3: increasing definitions is problematic. I mean, how many people would

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Speaker 3: you say are in that camp in terms of you know,

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Speaker 3: you've get your finger on the hilts on this.

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Speaker 2: It's very it's very hard to put a number on

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Speaker 2: it or I mean Alan, Alan certainly did predict to

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Speaker 2: one of the biggest expansions, which is adult ADHD, because

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Speaker 2: the ADHD until the lasts used to be only for

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Speaker 2: children and then suddenly they decided, oh no, it's an

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Speaker 2: adult disorder as well. And we've all seen the massive

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Speaker 2: expansion in people trying to get ADHD diagnosis, people diagnosing

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Speaker 2: themselves on the internet. There's waiting lists now in Britain

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Speaker 2: and it's probably the son elsewhere not to get treatment

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Speaker 2: trade DHD. There's nobody can get near that, and waiting

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Speaker 2: to get the diagnosis, waitingness and people paying private people

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Speaker 2: to give them the diagnosis. And I think in a universities,

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Speaker 2: for instance, we have thirty of our students. They're now

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Speaker 2: believing that there is something wrong with them. There's a

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Speaker 2: whole neurodivergence which is suddenly developed out of nowhere. And

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Speaker 2: again I think we're it's the same because we're often

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Speaker 2: pathologizing things where people actually need some help to fix

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Speaker 2: some of the things that are going on for them,

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Speaker 2: rather than have them apply this label to themselves and

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Speaker 2: telling themselves, oh help, so I can't do anything about this.

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Speaker 2: I've got this got this thing so the diagnosas media

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Speaker 2: esterday is off the scale, and also autism and that

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Speaker 2: that spectrum as well. I've been over massively over diagnosed

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Speaker 2: and over medical lives.

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Speaker 3: So I got I got that I was being interviewed

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Speaker 3: on a podcast, and I'd say, it's something that caused

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Speaker 3: a massive stirry, and I mean, this is clearly an

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Speaker 3: emotive topic, the whole diagnosis thing. And I pointed out

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Speaker 3: that if you're born in the youngest part of the year,

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Speaker 3: the youngest twenty five percent of the year, you are

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Speaker 3: thirty eight percent more likely to be diagnosed with ADHD

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Speaker 3: than if you're born late in the year. And you know,

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Speaker 3: some people were like, oh my god, and lots of

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Speaker 3: people started attacking me and stuff like that on social media.

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Speaker 3: But that is just scientific fact. And it's often that

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Speaker 3: that little Johnny is just six months younger than his peers,

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Speaker 3: and it's not a tentive a name. I think the

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Speaker 3: issue with boys is getting young boys to sit down

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Speaker 3: all day long and try and rope learn stuff. It's

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Speaker 3: just it's counter intuitive to buy they're designed well.

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Speaker 2: You could ask what's wrong with the little boys who

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Speaker 2: do sit there passively true to their chairs, not not

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Speaker 2: wanting to get up and run about and do this

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Speaker 2: thing that children ought to be doing. I mean, I

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Speaker 2: mean that's been a bit facetious and simplistic, but there

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Speaker 2: is a major, major problem the other but the other

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Speaker 2: thing that's sort of motivating perhaps teachers to go along

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Speaker 2: this room. If you can get kids diagnosed with the ADHD,

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Speaker 2: you get extra resources into the into the classroom.

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Speaker 1: You do get extra resources.

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Speaker 3: Sorry, the teachers get extra resources, and the individuals actually

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Speaker 3: get some some extra breaks, time on exams, those sorts

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Speaker 3: of things, and they get.

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Speaker 2: Some people yeah, which some people need. Yes, yeah, absolutely,

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Speaker 2: I'm not saying that, And I'll get a taxis I'm

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Speaker 2: sure for saying this over diagnosis, because people the attraction is.

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Speaker 2: I actually say to my students right at the beginning

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Speaker 2: of any lectures about mental health, so I suggest you

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Speaker 2: all make your own diagnosis up now, don't care what

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Speaker 2: it is, and then whenever you do anything self defeating

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Speaker 2: or ridiculous or the rest of your life, you will

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Speaker 2: have an explanation for it. And I tell them, minus

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Speaker 2: squirkly Bob disorder. And how do I know I've got

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Speaker 2: squirkly bob disorder? Well, I do the sorts of things

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Speaker 2: that people with squirkly bob disorder do, and I list

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Speaker 2: some of my failings, and I've got a perfect explanation

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Speaker 2: for every every time. I don't have to do anything

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Speaker 2: to try and change it, and nobody can give me

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Speaker 2: a high time. It's it's a silly and cheap way

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Speaker 2: of trying to make it make a point, but that

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Speaker 2: the other problem with this overdiagnosed with radio is that

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Speaker 2: people with real, real problems, yes and set as advice

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Speaker 2: to autism. I mean, people with real autism really need

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Speaker 2: a lot of help, and to have ten twenty percent

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Speaker 2: of people what's the right word, but believing that they

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Speaker 2: have autism Anita when they actually don't. They have something

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Speaker 2: some very sort of weak, minor version of it, or

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Speaker 2: some symptoms vaguely related to her and might need a

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Speaker 2: better help. But it's not real autism, and it's so

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Speaker 2: it's taking services away from people who really needia. But

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Speaker 2: it's clearly an attractive thing. It's happening, you know, so

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Speaker 2: many people find this a helpful solution or a helpful

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Speaker 2: way to think about life's difficulties. It's attractive, isn't it.

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Speaker 2: I mean it's like you've got an explanation, you've got

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Speaker 2: a reason for not doing anything about it. Hopefully get

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Speaker 2: a bit of sympathy and so but it's but it's

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Speaker 2: in many cases it's just not real.

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Speaker 3: And so you're talking about obviously that the continuum here,

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Speaker 3: and and I think it's not just autism or adios D.

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Speaker 1: It's also depression, it's anxiety.

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Speaker 3: It's it's people who would be on the much milder

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Speaker 3: end of the scale, were were people like you would go, well,

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Speaker 3: actually you don't have a disorder, you're just having a

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Speaker 3: reaction to to a life event. But but they are

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Speaker 3: then taking up resources for people with severe depression, severe

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Speaker 3: ADHD who can't actually get in to get the help

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Speaker 3: that they need. I mean in Australia that the waiting

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Speaker 3: list to see a psychiatry or psychologist is crazy. And

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Speaker 3: so that there's there's that side of the problem as well,

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Speaker 3: isn't it that then these mental health resources and help

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Speaker 3: that's out are for people who really need it, that's

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Speaker 3: just got spread so thin. Then the other point that

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Speaker 3: you bring up is really important that getting a liable

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Speaker 3: in some people can cause a lack of agency. And basically,

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Speaker 3: I have this thing and you blame everything on this

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Speaker 3: thing and actually don't go and do the thing. Do

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Speaker 3: the things that you need to do. For instance, we

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Speaker 3: know with depression exercises way more effective than SSRI medications.

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Speaker 3: You know, there's a number of other things you could do.

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Speaker 3: Getting your vinomin d up is actually quite effective. Creating

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Speaker 3: and taking creating I don't know if you saw, but

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Speaker 3: creating is quite effective as an antidepressant, and it enhances psychiatry.

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Speaker 3: Our psychological interventions are therapy by over fifty percent, you know,

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Speaker 3: having good sleep, all of those things. How big a

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Speaker 3: problem do you think having a lebelase.

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Speaker 2: For some people? I mean, numerically, it's getting it's it's

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Speaker 2: getting really bizarre. I mean the figures in Australia the

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Speaker 2: same as here. We have just take depression. We have

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Speaker 2: now had one in six of our adult population on

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Speaker 2: antidepressants for having depressive disorder, or even higher if you're

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Speaker 2: a woman, or if you're a sixty or if you're

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Speaker 2: living in a poor area, so where I am in

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Speaker 2: New and one of the poorest borroughs in London, if

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Speaker 2: you're a woman over sixty, probably got a fifty percent

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Speaker 2: chance of being on antidepressants orbum major depressive disorder. So

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Speaker 2: that's that's bizarre. So the numbers are getting quite quite

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Speaker 2: ridiculous of the number, you know, the numbers of people

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Speaker 2: with a supposed mental illness or psychiatric disorder.

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Speaker 3: I saw Mark Horra Whiz you you know MARKR. Wentz

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Speaker 3: very well in viewers. He's been on the podcast. He's

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Speaker 3: a bit of a trial blazer like you. I saw

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Speaker 3: him in an interview saying that with the latest edition

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Speaker 3: of the DSM, about eighty five percent of adults qualify

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Speaker 3: for having some sort of a disorder.

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Speaker 2: Sounds about right. I'm not sure we've actually done that.

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Speaker 2: Horry revived with that figure. I would have even put

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Speaker 2: it slightly higher. But I mean literally, I defy anybody

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Speaker 2: to read that from cover to cover and not find

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Speaker 2: themselves seriously at least once I'm in there on four

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Speaker 2: or five. I'm not telling you which pages.

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Speaker 3: Someone, right, I probably on numerous I would have made.

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Speaker 2: It's very hard to get through it with that farm.

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Speaker 3: Sorry, it's probably, But I mean, I mean, whether the

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Speaker 3: numbers eighty percent, eighty five, seventy, I mean, whatever that

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Speaker 3: number is, it's hard to get away from the idea

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Speaker 3: that the mental health industry is minting patients like central

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Speaker 3: banks mint money.

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Speaker 2: Well, I think if you do follow the money, you

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Speaker 2: always come up with some interesting learning, don't you. So

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Speaker 2: in this case, you follow the money and you follow

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Speaker 2: drug company money, who are extraordinarily influential in the field

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Speaker 2: of mental health, and they fund a lot of the research,

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Speaker 2: and the majority of the research into psychiatric drugs certainly

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Speaker 2: is funded by drug companies. They fund psychiatric associations, especially

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Speaker 2: the American psychiatric associations, heavily enmeshed with the pharmaceutical industry.

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Speaker 2: They provide people onto the DSM committees. The majority of

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Speaker 2: people who sit on the DSM committees are drug company

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Speaker 2: funded psychiatrists. Really, I mean, the influence cannot be exaggerated.

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Speaker 2: And they are there to do their job in a

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Speaker 2: way you can't blame them. Their job is to increase

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Speaker 2: return to their shareholders. And how do you do that

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Speaker 2: some more of your product. And how do you do

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Speaker 2: that in this field is you convince the public and

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Speaker 2: the psychiatrists and other doctors that human distress is not

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Speaker 2: ordinarily human distress responding to distressing things. It is a

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Speaker 2: symptom of a biological illness. And the fact that there's

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Speaker 2: no evidence for biology based causation doesn't matter. They are

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Speaker 2: extraordinarily effective marketers and they do their job very well,

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Speaker 2: so yes, we should hold them to account. But the people,

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Speaker 2: the real problem is the professional psychiatry, which has sold

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Speaker 2: its soul to the pharmaceutical companies. It has forgotten what

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Speaker 2: a proper boundary is between a medical scientific discipline and

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Speaker 2: a profit base organization or set up companies. There has

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Speaker 2: to be a very strong boundary there and that has

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Speaker 2: collapsed about twenty twenty five years ago. So that's It's

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Speaker 2: a simplistic explanation for all this over diagnosis, But we

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Speaker 2: have to acknowledge on the other side, does us every

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Speaker 2: human being many of us would prefer a quick fix. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: plistic explanation. I mean, look, look, Paul, Yeah, I hear

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Speaker 2: your difficulty, and the problem is you've got X disorder,

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Speaker 2: and here's the pill that's going to fix it. Would

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Speaker 2: you like to do that or would you like to

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Speaker 2: sit and talk to me for hours and hours about

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Speaker 2: lots of messy stuff in your life and then eventually

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Speaker 2: figure out how you can make some changes in your life.

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Speaker 2: To know I'm exaggerating the two extremes of course, no,

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Speaker 2: I'm just how attract we it's attractive to us and

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Speaker 2: we we fall for in our millions.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that is.

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Speaker 3: Let me a quick comparison for people, you know, that

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Speaker 3: immeshment of the drug industry with people on the DSM.

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Speaker 3: You know, there's been a massive outcry in the United

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Speaker 3: States because it was identified that I think there's around

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Speaker 3: twenty nine people on the committee that creates the Dietary

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Speaker 3: Guidelines and something like twenty three of them have strong

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Speaker 3: ties to the food big food industry, right, which is

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Speaker 3: clearly wrong, but exactly like what you talked about. And

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Speaker 3: then in Australia a number of years ago, Dietitians Australia

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Speaker 3: were outed by an investigative journalist, Marianne Demasi, for taking

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Speaker 3: money from the Australian and Breakfast cereal manufacturers and to

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Speaker 3: promote their product, and.

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Speaker 1: They then had to change things. People went, this is.

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Speaker 3: Just wrong, and they were called out and they had

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Speaker 3: to change. But it's obviously ongoing. In psychiatry, now we've

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Speaker 3: talked about you've talked about the issues with diagnosis. So

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Speaker 3: if they're not going to diagnose people, if you're saying

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Speaker 3: diagnosis or problematic, what should actually replace them? Should we

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Speaker 3: be going back to the original DSM where it talked

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Speaker 3: about reactions to life events or is there is there

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Speaker 3: something else in addition to that, what's your thoughts on

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Speaker 3: the way ahead?

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Speaker 2: Well, I think I mean in a way it sounds simplistic,

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Speaker 2: in a bit common sense, but it's the The alternative

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Speaker 2: is to find out, to explore with the person in

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Speaker 2: front of you, what's going on in their life and

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Speaker 2: the connection between their difficulties and those events in their life.

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Speaker 2: I have a current events or events from their childhood

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Speaker 2: or whatever. I mean. As psychologists, you know, we like

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Speaker 2: to have fun words for it, so we call it

385
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Speaker 2: a psychological formulation. But all that is really is getting

386
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Speaker 2: someone's life history and trying to make sense of their

387
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Speaker 2: current problems in light of their current circumstances and past

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Speaker 2: events in their life. It's not rocket science. It's almost

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Speaker 2: the sort of thing you do when you meet a

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Speaker 2: new friend and you want to get to know them.

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Speaker 2: You ask the questions about their about their life, about

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Speaker 2: what they like to do about any difficulties, et cetera,

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Speaker 2: et cetera. It's a bit more structured than that, but

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Speaker 2: and that's that's the that's the alternative, and it's not.

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Speaker 2: It's not difficult, and it's what many mental health professionals do,

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Speaker 2: so counsels and many psychologists. The problem with that is

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Speaker 2: that if one of the problems with that is you

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Speaker 2: don't have a labor or a diagnosis and you can't

399
00:25:47,760 --> 00:25:51,119
Speaker 2: perhaps get the insurance coverage for it, you have to

400
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Speaker 2: call it something to get to get payments. Sometimes that

401
00:25:56,680 --> 00:25:59,680
Speaker 2: this this more obvious sense of approach doesn't always match

402
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Speaker 2: up with funding streams. But that shouldn't that shouldn't mean

403
00:26:05,480 --> 00:26:08,280
Speaker 2: that we don't that we don't do that. And the

404
00:26:08,359 --> 00:26:11,080
Speaker 2: other thing we need to do is stop only looking

405
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Speaker 2: at the individual in front of us, try and look

406
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Speaker 2: at the system around whether it's their family or their workplace,

407
00:26:16,960 --> 00:26:19,560
Speaker 2: or the school the kids attending, or whatever, trying to

408
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Speaker 2: make sense of it in a social context, because you know,

409
00:26:23,520 --> 00:26:26,960
Speaker 2: our difficulties don't arise from inside us their eyes, from

410
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Speaker 2: our interactions with people around us.

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Speaker 1: We all know that.

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Speaker 2: We know, we know that we we get distressed when

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Speaker 2: people do distressing things to us or we see distressing.

414
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Speaker 2: We know it, so we just me it's really common sense,

415
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Speaker 2: just get to know the person and together help them

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Speaker 2: figure out a what the problem is, be what's causing

417
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Speaker 2: the problem, and then the important thing, of course, see

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Speaker 2: what changes might might help, whether that's exercise, dietary a

419
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Speaker 2: couple doing some work on the way you think about things.

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Speaker 2: There's a whole different many, many different approaches, and no

421
00:27:02,640 --> 00:27:07,200
Speaker 2: one think works for everybody obviously, so let's as SIMPLI

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Speaker 2: to you. But it's kind of it is.

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Speaker 3: You know, it's simple, but not easy, right, It's about

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Speaker 3: doing that work. And so so let's then do the

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Speaker 3: comparison here and you know, you throw out those statistics.

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Speaker 3: I think it's one in six in the UK Industryian

427
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Speaker 3: New Zealand it's between one and six and only seven

428
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Speaker 3: adults on an on an antidepressant. And you've done a

429
00:27:33,760 --> 00:27:38,440
Speaker 3: lot of research in this area around the side effects

430
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Speaker 3: of this. I think the average length of time that

431
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Speaker 3: people are on them are is about two years something.

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Speaker 3: Correct me if I'm wrong on that. But so, so

433
00:27:49,680 --> 00:27:52,920
Speaker 3: what are some of the problems, Because you've actually researched

434
00:27:53,080 --> 00:27:58,080
Speaker 3: real people who have been on these medications and asked

435
00:27:58,160 --> 00:28:03,879
Speaker 3: them about their symptoms, either reactions the side effects to it.

436
00:28:04,000 --> 00:28:07,280
Speaker 3: So what sort of things tend to pop up with

437
00:28:07,400 --> 00:28:08,600
Speaker 3: what regularity?

438
00:28:09,920 --> 00:28:16,640
Speaker 2: Okay, so the most common adverse effects of antidepressants. Probably

439
00:28:16,800 --> 00:28:22,400
Speaker 2: the most common one is an emotional numbing so people say, yeah,

440
00:28:22,440 --> 00:28:26,119
Speaker 2: I don't I don't feel as depressed as I used to,

441
00:28:27,080 --> 00:28:31,600
Speaker 2: but I don't feel anything about anything, so that they

442
00:28:31,680 --> 00:28:36,480
Speaker 2: replaced this feeling of sadness, grief, depression quarterback that that

443
00:28:36,600 --> 00:28:39,720
Speaker 2: might have gone, but still has everything else. So they're

444
00:28:39,720 --> 00:28:44,640
Speaker 2: live in a completely emotionless life, which for a few

445
00:28:44,640 --> 00:28:46,600
Speaker 2: weeks might not be a bad idea if you're an

446
00:28:46,600 --> 00:28:49,840
Speaker 2: extreme crisis, you know, three or four people have died

447
00:28:49,960 --> 00:28:52,640
Speaker 2: or something. You know, I can imagine just yeah, close

448
00:28:52,720 --> 00:28:55,160
Speaker 2: me down for a few weeks for that. The people

449
00:28:55,160 --> 00:28:57,760
Speaker 2: are then left in this state for years and years,

450
00:28:58,240 --> 00:29:03,000
Speaker 2: So that's that's that's one of them. An alarming one

451
00:29:03,080 --> 00:29:09,240
Speaker 2: is a significant number of people feel more suicidal on them.

452
00:29:09,480 --> 00:29:13,040
Speaker 2: Certainly for the first few weeks, that tends to go away.

453
00:29:13,160 --> 00:29:17,880
Speaker 2: So if you get through that without killing yourself, then

454
00:29:17,960 --> 00:29:21,280
Speaker 2: that goes away. But the idea that a significant proportion

455
00:29:21,360 --> 00:29:24,240
Speaker 2: of people should be more suicidal from a treatment that

456
00:29:24,240 --> 00:29:27,640
Speaker 2: I'm supposed to treat depression is odd.

457
00:29:27,880 --> 00:29:28,520
Speaker 1: That's crazy.

458
00:29:29,440 --> 00:29:31,960
Speaker 3: That's like having high blood pressure and starting to take

459
00:29:31,960 --> 00:29:33,320
Speaker 3: a tablet the pitch of blood pressure.

460
00:29:34,240 --> 00:29:36,440
Speaker 2: Indeed, that that is what it's like. But again that

461
00:29:36,480 --> 00:29:39,480
Speaker 2: the psychiatrist operates in sort of a different set of

462
00:29:39,560 --> 00:29:43,400
Speaker 2: rules to the rest of medicine, or it almost operates

463
00:29:43,400 --> 00:29:49,440
Speaker 2: without rules. So those are two of them, most concerning one,

464
00:29:49,440 --> 00:29:54,760
Speaker 2: but the concerning adverse effects, some physiological ones, but the

465
00:29:55,000 --> 00:29:57,719
Speaker 2: biggest one that's emerged in the last five to ten years,

466
00:29:57,760 --> 00:30:02,240
Speaker 2: as you know, is the withdrawal effects antidepressants, which the

467
00:30:02,280 --> 00:30:05,720
Speaker 2: public has been lied to for decades by the drug

468
00:30:05,720 --> 00:30:08,560
Speaker 2: companies and I'm afraid, i have to say, by a

469
00:30:08,560 --> 00:30:12,560
Speaker 2: psychiatric professional organization. It was only about six or seven

470
00:30:12,640 --> 00:30:16,240
Speaker 2: years ago that our College of Psychiatry was insisting that

471
00:30:16,320 --> 00:30:20,680
Speaker 2: antidepressant withdrawal effects are are rare and mild and only

472
00:30:20,760 --> 00:30:24,960
Speaker 2: last one or two weeks, which is astonished. They took

473
00:30:25,000 --> 00:30:27,600
Speaker 2: their credit as a result of our research, and people

474
00:30:27,640 --> 00:30:30,480
Speaker 2: like Mark Horowitz and Joanna Moncrief, they have done a

475
00:30:30,600 --> 00:30:33,400
Speaker 2: u turn and they have now put out proper guidance

476
00:30:33,440 --> 00:30:36,120
Speaker 2: to say that can last for months or years and

477
00:30:36,160 --> 00:30:40,520
Speaker 2: people must come off very very slowly. So that's just

478
00:30:40,560 --> 00:30:44,120
Speaker 2: sort of the new part, the new learning from the

479
00:30:44,200 --> 00:30:47,960
Speaker 2: last few years. It's a level of withdrawal effects. So

480
00:30:48,280 --> 00:30:51,920
Speaker 2: our review of that literature shows that just over half

481
00:30:51,960 --> 00:30:55,240
Speaker 2: of people, when they tried to come off antidepressants will

482
00:30:55,240 --> 00:31:01,680
Speaker 2: have some sort of withdrawal effects, and of those about describe.

483
00:31:01,240 --> 00:31:03,959
Speaker 1: The best severe twenty five percent.

484
00:31:04,280 --> 00:31:06,400
Speaker 3: Until of all people who are trying to come off

485
00:31:06,520 --> 00:31:09,520
Speaker 3: are saying that the withdrawal effects are severe.

486
00:31:10,400 --> 00:31:11,880
Speaker 1: Is this then?

487
00:31:12,320 --> 00:31:17,760
Speaker 3: This my recognition that the withdrawal effects can be severe

488
00:31:17,880 --> 00:31:20,680
Speaker 3: and they're they're much more frequent than they used to

489
00:31:20,720 --> 00:31:21,120
Speaker 3: be thought.

490
00:31:21,800 --> 00:31:25,160
Speaker 1: Has that has that then influenced?

491
00:31:26,320 --> 00:31:29,920
Speaker 3: Has that tightened who then gets put on it?

492
00:31:30,000 --> 00:31:31,800
Speaker 1: Is it filtered down to that level?

493
00:31:31,880 --> 00:31:35,160
Speaker 2: Yet? Yeah? No, not yet. Every year we look at

494
00:31:35,200 --> 00:31:37,520
Speaker 2: the figures in Britain and around the world and I

495
00:31:37,520 --> 00:31:40,360
Speaker 2: think this must be the first year in twenty five

496
00:31:40,440 --> 00:31:44,760
Speaker 2: that it doesn't increase. But that hasn't happened yet. The

497
00:31:44,800 --> 00:31:47,120
Speaker 2: last year's figures, as always, it's gone up two or

498
00:31:47,120 --> 00:31:51,000
Speaker 2: three four percent on the previous year. It has to

499
00:31:51,000 --> 00:31:53,080
Speaker 2: platter at some point, or it has to come it

500
00:31:53,160 --> 00:31:55,080
Speaker 2: has to start coming down because it just kind of

501
00:31:55,600 --> 00:32:01,120
Speaker 2: the numbers are ridiculous. So I think we're I think

502
00:32:01,120 --> 00:32:03,320
Speaker 2: they will. I think I think they will. I think

503
00:32:03,360 --> 00:32:05,720
Speaker 2: the message is getting getting out. I mean we've had

504
00:32:06,240 --> 00:32:10,440
Speaker 2: things like in Britain with the mortly de prescribing Diadeline.

505
00:32:10,680 --> 00:32:13,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, well they've come in in Australia now as well.

506
00:32:13,720 --> 00:32:16,800
Speaker 2: Excellent, Well Mark is you know, Australia should be very

507
00:32:16,840 --> 00:32:20,520
Speaker 2: proud of Mark Orwitz. It's kind a wonderful, wonderful job.

508
00:32:20,560 --> 00:32:22,760
Speaker 2: And he's an Aussie and.

509
00:32:22,800 --> 00:32:25,600
Speaker 3: To talk us, talk us through that, so so John,

510
00:32:25,680 --> 00:32:31,320
Speaker 3: So for for anybody who's listening who might resonate with this,

511
00:32:31,680 --> 00:32:35,560
Speaker 3: whether they're they're on an SSRI I for either depression

512
00:32:35,640 --> 00:32:37,720
Speaker 3: or they can be on it for anxiety as well. Right,

513
00:32:38,120 --> 00:32:41,520
Speaker 3: and and if they're deciding that they want to get

514
00:32:41,640 --> 00:32:45,280
Speaker 3: off the drug, and then what should they be doing

515
00:32:45,320 --> 00:32:47,840
Speaker 3: to do they go to their GP they say they

516
00:32:48,000 --> 00:32:51,479
Speaker 3: say they're under GP car right or or a psychologists car.

517
00:32:51,560 --> 00:32:55,560
Speaker 3: Does that change what they should do whether they're who's

518
00:32:55,640 --> 00:33:00,480
Speaker 3: currying for them? And presumably presumably then they should talk

519
00:33:00,520 --> 00:33:03,120
Speaker 3: to their doctor about these guidelines if the doctor's not

520
00:33:03,160 --> 00:33:03,680
Speaker 3: aware of it.

521
00:33:04,720 --> 00:33:07,120
Speaker 2: Yes, so that yes, we always advise to go to

522
00:33:07,160 --> 00:33:12,280
Speaker 2: the prescriber, describe your the symptoms you're having and try

523
00:33:12,320 --> 00:33:16,640
Speaker 2: and get the prescriber to make a plan with you

524
00:33:16,680 --> 00:33:22,080
Speaker 2: about how to withdraw very very slowly, but realistically. At

525
00:33:22,080 --> 00:33:27,240
Speaker 2: this point in history, the doctors have been misinformed and

526
00:33:27,800 --> 00:33:32,320
Speaker 2: about with the withdrawal effects and are quite likely to

527
00:33:32,440 --> 00:33:36,280
Speaker 2: misdiagnose the withdrawal effects as a return of the depression

528
00:33:36,360 --> 00:33:40,240
Speaker 2: or the anxiety. Right, So we're just in britaintly just

529
00:33:40,320 --> 00:33:43,360
Speaker 2: beginning to put training programs in place to try and

530
00:33:43,440 --> 00:33:46,760
Speaker 2: reach because in this instance it's more GPS and psychiatrists

531
00:33:46,760 --> 00:33:50,160
Speaker 2: than just numerically terms of antidepressants. So they're trying to

532
00:33:50,160 --> 00:33:53,000
Speaker 2: reach the GPS the family doctors with training. It's taken

533
00:33:53,040 --> 00:33:56,920
Speaker 2: a while to get that off the ground. So the

534
00:33:56,960 --> 00:33:59,320
Speaker 2: most likely outcome when people at the moment when they

535
00:33:59,320 --> 00:34:01,719
Speaker 2: go to prescribe but get some help is that they

536
00:34:01,720 --> 00:34:07,080
Speaker 2: won't get any help because the doctors are poorly informed.

537
00:34:07,200 --> 00:34:12,399
Speaker 2: So you're then kind of left by yourself and well,

538
00:34:12,440 --> 00:34:15,160
Speaker 2: I say buying said meth. Tens of thousands of people

539
00:34:15,200 --> 00:34:19,279
Speaker 2: are getting good support online Facebook groups, so a lot

540
00:34:19,320 --> 00:34:22,040
Speaker 2: of the you know, thousands and thousands of done, couple

541
00:34:22,080 --> 00:34:24,760
Speaker 2: of studies on it, actually thousands and thousands of people

542
00:34:24,760 --> 00:34:28,000
Speaker 2: supporting one another. So there is support out there, but

543
00:34:28,080 --> 00:34:32,319
Speaker 2: not from professionals, which is sad. But the basic there's

544
00:34:32,320 --> 00:34:36,840
Speaker 2: two basic rules, well three one very very slowly whatever

545
00:34:36,880 --> 00:34:41,480
Speaker 2: that means, and what that means is that has to

546
00:34:41,480 --> 00:34:44,920
Speaker 2: be sort of individualized. Don't let anybody tell you the

547
00:34:45,000 --> 00:34:49,600
Speaker 2: answer is reduced by ten gram or whatever, reduced once

548
00:34:49,640 --> 00:34:51,920
Speaker 2: a month, or it's not the same for nature people.

549
00:34:52,320 --> 00:34:58,160
Speaker 2: So you reduce a little bit, wait and see what happens,

550
00:34:58,280 --> 00:35:01,320
Speaker 2: and if the if the with all effects are tolerable

551
00:35:01,400 --> 00:35:03,160
Speaker 2: and begin to fade a little bit, then you can

552
00:35:03,200 --> 00:35:06,399
Speaker 2: reduce a little bit more. Bearing in mind of course

553
00:35:06,400 --> 00:35:08,760
Speaker 2: that while this is going on, life is still happening

554
00:35:10,280 --> 00:35:13,400
Speaker 2: something really upsetting, right, how you might need to go

555
00:35:13,480 --> 00:35:15,160
Speaker 2: back up for a little while. That that's okay, that

556
00:35:15,200 --> 00:35:19,120
Speaker 2: doesn't mean you've failed. But the other bit of information

557
00:35:19,239 --> 00:35:23,520
Speaker 2: is that people should reduced by a percentage of the

558
00:35:23,520 --> 00:35:27,880
Speaker 2: previous dose, not by you know, ten ten milligrounds, ten

559
00:35:27,880 --> 00:35:33,600
Speaker 2: milligans tonel percentage, so that at the very end you

560
00:35:33,680 --> 00:35:37,799
Speaker 2: are you are really reducing tiny, tiny amounts. Because it's

561
00:35:37,840 --> 00:35:41,960
Speaker 2: at the end this is where people go wrong. They

562
00:35:41,960 --> 00:35:44,719
Speaker 2: get very close to finishing, throw the last one and

563
00:35:44,760 --> 00:35:46,960
Speaker 2: then it comes back in it. So that's I mean,

564
00:35:47,040 --> 00:35:49,879
Speaker 2: it's that's trying to condense the that's a whole book.

565
00:35:50,800 --> 00:35:53,440
Speaker 2: But those are the three that slowly, slowly, at your

566
00:35:53,560 --> 00:35:58,000
Speaker 2: own pace and be flexible and do it by a percentage.

567
00:35:58,040 --> 00:35:59,799
Speaker 2: So it's very slow at the end. And I guess

568
00:35:59,800 --> 00:36:01,600
Speaker 2: the fourth one it's get as much support as you

569
00:36:01,680 --> 00:36:05,440
Speaker 2: can from from family and friends, because it's for some

570
00:36:05,560 --> 00:36:11,640
Speaker 2: people it's a very very difficult journey. Not everybody. There

571
00:36:11,680 --> 00:36:13,799
Speaker 2: are some people who managed to throw them away and

572
00:36:13,880 --> 00:36:14,400
Speaker 2: it's fine.

573
00:36:14,840 --> 00:36:17,920
Speaker 3: Yeah, And I suppose the key the key thing is

574
00:36:17,960 --> 00:36:21,319
Speaker 3: doing you don't you don't know until you're starting to withdraw, right,

575
00:36:21,760 --> 00:36:22,520
Speaker 3: that's right.

576
00:36:22,480 --> 00:36:24,640
Speaker 2: And people and I have to say, people do come

577
00:36:24,680 --> 00:36:28,240
Speaker 2: out the other end, and it's it's it's it's possible.

578
00:36:28,680 --> 00:36:30,520
Speaker 2: It's just I don't want to paint too bleak a picture.

579
00:36:30,560 --> 00:36:34,680
Speaker 2: But it's more likely if you're very careful and go slowly.

580
00:36:34,760 --> 00:36:37,360
Speaker 2: And for basically I just lay that.

581
00:36:38,239 --> 00:36:43,120
Speaker 3: So let's let's start talk about what what good curR

582
00:36:43,280 --> 00:36:47,560
Speaker 3: looks like. I mean, on the last interview that we did,

583
00:36:47,840 --> 00:36:52,439
Speaker 3: you said something that just blew my mind, and it

584
00:36:52,520 --> 00:36:57,759
Speaker 3: was that that when people are our first being, they

585
00:36:57,800 --> 00:37:00,640
Speaker 3: go to a mental health professional. Think you said only

586
00:37:00,680 --> 00:37:03,520
Speaker 3: about twenty five percent of the time are they asked

587
00:37:03,560 --> 00:37:05,520
Speaker 3: about any trauma in their life.

588
00:37:06,480 --> 00:37:09,200
Speaker 2: Did I remember that correctly? Yeah, Well that's not. Yeah,

589
00:37:09,520 --> 00:37:11,520
Speaker 2: pretty much. I was talking about people who have been

590
00:37:11,520 --> 00:37:15,399
Speaker 2: in mental health services finny period of time that's months

591
00:37:15,480 --> 00:37:22,000
Speaker 2: or ferios. Less than twenty percent of people are ever

592
00:37:22,160 --> 00:37:24,480
Speaker 2: asked and all that comes up with mental health is

593
00:37:24,640 --> 00:37:27,080
Speaker 2: are ever asked about what's going on in that childhood

594
00:37:28,160 --> 00:37:32,480
Speaker 2: or of adverse events? Yeah, were you staggering?

595
00:37:32,719 --> 00:37:32,959
Speaker 1: No?

596
00:37:32,960 --> 00:37:35,520
Speaker 3: No, I mean I'm not a mental health professional, but

597
00:37:35,680 --> 00:37:42,360
Speaker 3: fuck me like that is just crazy. I mean, anybody,

598
00:37:43,040 --> 00:37:48,239
Speaker 3: it's pretty clear to anybody that all of your experiences

599
00:37:48,880 --> 00:37:54,920
Speaker 3: and ship how you view reality, and particularly you and

600
00:37:54,960 --> 00:37:58,239
Speaker 3: we know with the developing brand, you're born with two

601
00:37:58,320 --> 00:38:02,520
Speaker 3: hundred billion neurons by age of seven, probably less than that,

602
00:38:02,560 --> 00:38:06,720
Speaker 3: you've lost one hundred billion in a process called synaptic pruning.

603
00:38:06,760 --> 00:38:08,520
Speaker 3: I think the Jesure to say, give me a boy

604
00:38:08,600 --> 00:38:10,080
Speaker 3: to the age of seven, it will give you back

605
00:38:10,120 --> 00:38:14,799
Speaker 3: a man. You know, that's called the Great period of development,

606
00:38:15,040 --> 00:38:20,240
Speaker 3: and that synaptic pruning is basically you're brain being shaped

607
00:38:20,280 --> 00:38:26,000
Speaker 3: by experience and the environment. Like, how can how can

608
00:38:26,120 --> 00:38:32,400
Speaker 3: that not be a major factor in talking to somebody

609
00:38:32,400 --> 00:38:36,040
Speaker 3: about their issues? How can you not be asking about

610
00:38:36,080 --> 00:38:37,160
Speaker 3: their freaking childhood?

611
00:38:37,280 --> 00:38:38,440
Speaker 1: It's mad to.

612
00:38:38,440 --> 00:38:42,359
Speaker 2: Me, Well, yes it is. I think I think the

613
00:38:42,400 --> 00:38:46,040
Speaker 2: pruning happens a bit later, but in adolescence. But the

614
00:38:46,080 --> 00:38:50,200
Speaker 2: basic point is it's right that the developing brain is

615
00:38:50,239 --> 00:38:52,719
Speaker 2: of course shaped by some environment. How could it? How

616
00:38:52,760 --> 00:38:54,920
Speaker 2: could it not be? But I think I mean to

617
00:38:55,000 --> 00:38:57,040
Speaker 2: ask you a question, is this is the extent of

618
00:38:57,080 --> 00:39:00,920
Speaker 2: the power of the dominance of that simplest medical model

619
00:39:02,640 --> 00:39:07,279
Speaker 2: which permeates all Western mental health mental health systems. I

620
00:39:07,280 --> 00:39:09,920
Speaker 2: think America is the worse. Australia is not far behind.

621
00:39:09,960 --> 00:39:14,600
Speaker 2: I'm afraid it's my experience with is very biological. Britain's

622
00:39:14,640 --> 00:39:17,400
Speaker 2: not a lot better, it's a little bit. But within

623
00:39:17,440 --> 00:39:20,080
Speaker 2: each of those countries there are pockets of really of

624
00:39:20,280 --> 00:39:25,960
Speaker 2: excellence where people do understand that if you want to

625
00:39:26,200 --> 00:39:29,160
Speaker 2: understand someone's mental health problems, you need to understand what's

626
00:39:29,160 --> 00:39:30,719
Speaker 2: going on in their life and what's going on in

627
00:39:30,760 --> 00:39:35,360
Speaker 2: the past. But that's the power of the medical model

628
00:39:35,719 --> 00:39:38,000
Speaker 2: at the moment. And there's other factors, of course, in

629
00:39:38,080 --> 00:39:41,160
Speaker 2: terms of resources and time. It takes time to get

630
00:39:41,200 --> 00:39:44,120
Speaker 2: to know somebody. It takes ten to fifteen minutes to

631
00:39:44,160 --> 00:39:46,879
Speaker 2: diagnose somebody and hand out a pick what color pill

632
00:39:46,920 --> 00:39:47,359
Speaker 2: you're going to.

633
00:39:47,320 --> 00:39:51,640
Speaker 4: Give them, So there are resource issues as well, yeah,

634
00:39:51,719 --> 00:39:54,520
Speaker 4: I mean this is this the crux of the issue,

635
00:39:54,640 --> 00:39:58,200
Speaker 4: because you know, my wife Collie has just finished her

636
00:39:58,239 --> 00:40:01,319
Speaker 4: Masters in counseling and a big chunk of that was

637
00:40:01,360 --> 00:40:03,440
Speaker 4: about trauma informed.

638
00:40:03,000 --> 00:40:04,720
Speaker 1: Care, which I know you talk about.

639
00:40:05,200 --> 00:40:08,640
Speaker 3: And the fact that I think something crazy like eighty

640
00:40:08,760 --> 00:40:12,520
Speaker 3: or really five percent of all psychiatric medication is prescribed

641
00:40:12,520 --> 00:40:14,160
Speaker 3: by non psychiatric doctors.

642
00:40:15,880 --> 00:40:19,719
Speaker 1: Is that a big part of the problem in that the.

643
00:40:21,440 --> 00:40:24,319
Speaker 3: First time that they get to see somebody about their

644
00:40:24,360 --> 00:40:28,759
Speaker 3: issue is that often they are not trained specifically in that.

645
00:40:30,760 --> 00:40:37,480
Speaker 2: Well, I'm not sure that is a problem because I personally,

646
00:40:37,719 --> 00:40:40,759
Speaker 2: and on my forty fifty years experience, I wouldn't have

647
00:40:40,800 --> 00:40:46,160
Speaker 2: more faith in the psychiatrist than a GP to come

648
00:40:46,239 --> 00:40:49,080
Speaker 2: up with a sensible understanding of what's going on and

649
00:40:48,840 --> 00:40:56,680
Speaker 2: to pick achievement. So I don't think. I think not

650
00:40:56,719 --> 00:40:59,440
Speaker 2: because of the individuals involved, but because of how they trained.

651
00:41:00,120 --> 00:41:05,399
Speaker 2: Right they are they are trained to count symptoms, pick

652
00:41:05,400 --> 00:41:06,920
Speaker 2: a page of the d s M and pick a

653
00:41:06,920 --> 00:41:09,600
Speaker 2: color pill. That's I don't know how it takes six years.

654
00:41:09,600 --> 00:41:13,520
Speaker 3: Are they not trained in trauma informed cur like council

655
00:41:13,600 --> 00:41:14,040
Speaker 3: or sorry?

656
00:41:14,520 --> 00:41:18,839
Speaker 2: Of course no, really, it might be there might be

657
00:41:18,960 --> 00:41:22,400
Speaker 2: I don't know, maybe these days there's one lecture on

658
00:41:22,440 --> 00:41:25,040
Speaker 2: it somewhere in their five or six years. I don't know,

659
00:41:25,080 --> 00:41:32,719
Speaker 2: but they're certainly not trauma informed practitioners at all. Some

660
00:41:32,840 --> 00:41:36,600
Speaker 2: individual psychiatrists will take themselves off and do a training,

661
00:41:38,719 --> 00:41:43,480
Speaker 2: but but the average psychiatrist knows very little about about trauma.

662
00:41:43,560 --> 00:41:50,680
Speaker 2: They might know how to diagnose PTSD maybe, but still

663
00:41:50,680 --> 00:41:53,520
Speaker 2: they'll probably apply a pill to that. They certainly won't

664
00:41:53,520 --> 00:41:59,440
Speaker 2: be training how to do trauma therapy, that is.

665
00:41:59,719 --> 00:42:03,719
Speaker 1: I find that shocking. What about what about psychologists? So

666
00:42:03,800 --> 00:42:04,120
Speaker 1: you were?

667
00:42:04,480 --> 00:42:07,799
Speaker 3: I mean, I guess different courses of different universities teach

668
00:42:07,920 --> 00:42:12,319
Speaker 3: different things. But are psychologists generally treated in trauma and

669
00:42:12,360 --> 00:42:13,880
Speaker 3: formed car as part of their dealers?

670
00:42:14,160 --> 00:42:18,520
Speaker 2: Yes, to different degrees. It's relatively you would say, trauma

671
00:42:18,520 --> 00:42:23,399
Speaker 2: inform caa sort of ten fifteen years all now, well,

672
00:42:23,680 --> 00:42:26,120
Speaker 2: the whole movement around Truman's form cave. But yes, most

673
00:42:26,120 --> 00:42:28,600
Speaker 2: clinical psychology training brothers will have quite a lot about

674
00:42:28,800 --> 00:42:37,399
Speaker 2: Tuman form on board nurses not so much. But it's

675
00:42:37,640 --> 00:42:43,000
Speaker 2: it's coming. It's coming. So it is improving painfully, angfully slow.

676
00:42:44,640 --> 00:42:50,640
Speaker 2: And yeah, I was gonna maybe have been too negative,

677
00:42:50,640 --> 00:42:54,280
Speaker 2: but I don't think. I think the poem is psychiatry's

678
00:42:54,800 --> 00:42:57,120
Speaker 2: power of psychiatry and it's position at the top of

679
00:42:57,120 --> 00:43:01,480
Speaker 2: the hierarchy. They've they've nailed themselves to the medical model.

680
00:43:01,520 --> 00:43:03,440
Speaker 2: So if if they were to admit, well, actually there's

681
00:43:03,480 --> 00:43:05,879
Speaker 2: no biological causes to any of these things, they kind

682
00:43:05,880 --> 00:43:10,960
Speaker 2: of lose that special right, their reason for being in

683
00:43:11,040 --> 00:43:13,600
Speaker 2: charge of all the multi disciplined teams. There's actually no

684
00:43:13,640 --> 00:43:16,759
Speaker 2: reason they should be in charge of at all. But

685
00:43:16,800 --> 00:43:20,920
Speaker 2: they are. But they are, and they're not going to

686
00:43:20,960 --> 00:43:23,319
Speaker 2: give up the biological stuff easily. I don't think it's

687
00:43:23,320 --> 00:43:27,759
Speaker 2: what I do, what what it's what defines them unfortunately,

688
00:43:27,840 --> 00:43:31,319
Speaker 2: and again it's certainly not as individuals. As individuals, they

689
00:43:31,360 --> 00:43:35,319
Speaker 2: undoubtedly want to help and are good people. Yeah, they've

690
00:43:35,320 --> 00:43:38,000
Speaker 2: been indoctrinated into this other way of thinking.

691
00:43:39,239 --> 00:43:42,720
Speaker 3: So you're not criticizing the individual, criticizing the system. Right,

692
00:43:42,920 --> 00:43:43,560
Speaker 3: that's correct.

693
00:43:43,840 --> 00:43:47,160
Speaker 2: Yes, And so it's going to sound like a very

694
00:43:47,200 --> 00:43:54,120
Speaker 2: bad joke, but some of my best friends are psychiatrists, right, Okay.

695
00:43:55,239 --> 00:43:57,839
Speaker 3: Just as we puck it out and we need to,

696
00:43:57,880 --> 00:44:00,200
Speaker 3: I talk about e c. T. Because it don't I know,

697
00:44:00,320 --> 00:44:03,480
Speaker 3: you've done a lot of research in this area, and

698
00:44:05,120 --> 00:44:09,320
Speaker 3: you've audited the use of electro convulsive therapy in England

699
00:44:09,719 --> 00:44:14,640
Speaker 3: multiple times. So tell us about this, what are the

700
00:44:14,760 --> 00:44:18,000
Speaker 3: problems with it? I think you talk about consent, you

701
00:44:18,040 --> 00:44:20,480
Speaker 3: talk about autonomy, you talk about the impacts of it.

702
00:44:21,080 --> 00:44:24,000
Speaker 2: Give us the Yeah, Well, the audits we did with

703
00:44:24,960 --> 00:44:27,120
Speaker 2: I'm not sure they came up with anything new. I

704
00:44:27,120 --> 00:44:29,200
Speaker 2: mean we found that about forty percent are giving it

705
00:44:29,239 --> 00:44:33,600
Speaker 2: against their will under under mental health legislation, which we

706
00:44:33,640 --> 00:44:35,480
Speaker 2: believe is a human rights violation.

707
00:44:38,200 --> 00:44:40,360
Speaker 1: Often does this happen in medicine?

708
00:44:42,719 --> 00:44:45,400
Speaker 2: Medicine, there's no other branch of medicine where you can't

709
00:44:45,440 --> 00:44:48,080
Speaker 2: force people to take the cancer treatment if they don't

710
00:44:48,080 --> 00:44:50,040
Speaker 2: want it, even if you know it will save their life.

711
00:44:50,520 --> 00:44:52,880
Speaker 2: You cannot strap someone to a bed and force them

712
00:44:52,920 --> 00:44:56,560
Speaker 2: to have cancer treatment, but you can easy to or

713
00:44:56,600 --> 00:45:01,440
Speaker 2: antipsychotics for that matter, you can force people under the

714
00:45:01,520 --> 00:45:04,799
Speaker 2: law to have an injection of antipsychotic medications.

715
00:45:04,840 --> 00:45:07,680
Speaker 3: But is this Is this still going on because it's

716
00:45:07,719 --> 00:45:10,800
Speaker 3: just like one of one flew over the fucking Cuckoosons territory.

717
00:45:11,280 --> 00:45:15,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean all countries have mental health acts which

718
00:45:15,160 --> 00:45:19,200
Speaker 2: gives psychiatrists the right to forcibly admit people and lock

719
00:45:19,280 --> 00:45:24,080
Speaker 2: them up and forcibly treat them with electricity or antipsychotic medication.

720
00:45:24,880 --> 00:45:27,279
Speaker 2: And I believe in thirty forty years time, we will

721
00:45:27,280 --> 00:45:30,960
Speaker 2: look back on this period and wonder what were we

722
00:45:31,400 --> 00:45:35,000
Speaker 2: what were we thinking? I mean, the World Health Organization

723
00:45:35,080 --> 00:45:39,600
Speaker 2: and the United Nations have both named coercive psychiatric treatment

724
00:45:39,640 --> 00:45:42,440
Speaker 2: as an abuse of human rights, and it's I mean,

725
00:45:42,480 --> 00:45:47,920
Speaker 2: you don't you don't need organizations like that too to

726
00:45:48,040 --> 00:45:50,000
Speaker 2: point that out. It's it's so obviously there is no

727
00:45:50,080 --> 00:45:52,120
Speaker 2: other group of people that can have this done to them.

728
00:45:52,920 --> 00:45:55,760
Speaker 2: So that's that's a major And then as the effect

729
00:45:55,800 --> 00:45:58,600
Speaker 2: of this, of the treatment itself, we were just publishing

730
00:45:58,640 --> 00:46:02,680
Speaker 2: now several papers out of the largest survey ever done

731
00:46:02,680 --> 00:46:09,200
Speaker 2: of ECT patients, over a thousand and their families, family members,

732
00:46:09,800 --> 00:46:14,879
Speaker 2: and over half are talking about memory loss. And of

733
00:46:14,880 --> 00:46:17,799
Speaker 2: those who talk about memory loss, the majority to say

734
00:46:17,800 --> 00:46:20,360
Speaker 2: it lasts at least three years, which means it's permanent.

735
00:46:20,800 --> 00:46:21,120
Speaker 1: Fuck.

736
00:46:21,360 --> 00:46:24,479
Speaker 2: But what they're told is that, oh, yes, you might

737
00:46:24,600 --> 00:46:28,560
Speaker 2: get some temporary mile memory loss for the period just

738
00:46:28,640 --> 00:46:33,239
Speaker 2: around the uct. But what we're publishing is many, many

739
00:46:33,280 --> 00:46:36,520
Speaker 2: accounts of people not being able to remember their childhood

740
00:46:36,600 --> 00:46:39,400
Speaker 2: or the childhood of their own kids. I can't remember

741
00:46:39,600 --> 00:46:42,880
Speaker 2: getting married, and these are you know, these are at

742
00:46:42,880 --> 00:46:46,120
Speaker 2: the extreme end to be fair, but the majority of

743
00:46:46,160 --> 00:46:48,960
Speaker 2: people are describing memory loss, and the majority of those

744
00:46:49,040 --> 00:46:52,680
Speaker 2: are saying it lasted. It's lasted at least three years.

745
00:46:53,400 --> 00:46:57,520
Speaker 2: That's that's really significant. There's no treatment in medicine. I

746
00:46:57,520 --> 00:47:01,279
Speaker 2: don't think that could possibly be permitted once that level

747
00:47:01,320 --> 00:47:04,480
Speaker 2: of adverse effect is yes, and then yeah, I mean

748
00:47:04,480 --> 00:47:06,640
Speaker 2: there's other that's kind of of rescular risks. There's the

749
00:47:06,719 --> 00:47:10,279
Speaker 2: risk of I mean not you're having eight to ten

750
00:47:10,360 --> 00:47:14,080
Speaker 2: general anesthetics, never mind the electricity, the oh you have

751
00:47:14,120 --> 00:47:18,680
Speaker 2: to have an anesthetic to general anisthetic every time. Yes,

752
00:47:18,840 --> 00:47:21,920
Speaker 2: so this anesthetic has a little risk to it. But

753
00:47:21,920 --> 00:47:26,240
Speaker 2: you're having ten within three weeks, within three weeks, yes,

754
00:47:28,120 --> 00:47:32,280
Speaker 2: the average courses between eight and twelve. And they're space

755
00:47:33,160 --> 00:47:35,879
Speaker 2: spaced up two or three times a week. So yeah,

756
00:47:35,920 --> 00:47:38,640
Speaker 2: on average about ten over three three weeks. So you've

757
00:47:38,640 --> 00:47:41,759
Speaker 2: got a general anesthetic, then you've got the equivalent of

758
00:47:41,800 --> 00:47:45,840
Speaker 2: one hundred and fifty vaults of electricity, and then you

759
00:47:45,920 --> 00:47:52,600
Speaker 2: have a grand mouse seizure ten times. And I mean,

760
00:47:52,680 --> 00:47:54,360
Speaker 2: in a way you don't need research to know that

761
00:47:54,440 --> 00:47:55,560
Speaker 2: this is not a good way.

762
00:47:56,000 --> 00:47:58,600
Speaker 1: I'm my jaw is almost on the floor here.

763
00:47:58,760 --> 00:48:02,640
Speaker 3: This is this is shocking be here, I mean, fuck it, hell,

764
00:48:02,880 --> 00:48:05,759
Speaker 3: this isn't far away from when they used to have

765
00:48:05,840 --> 00:48:08,560
Speaker 3: people in beds and get that little pick axe and

766
00:48:09,480 --> 00:48:12,919
Speaker 3: you know, get whack into their temporal lobes and cut

767
00:48:12,960 --> 00:48:14,720
Speaker 3: out a bit of their frigging temporal lobes.

768
00:48:14,760 --> 00:48:19,160
Speaker 1: This is barbar I mean, how successful? Is easy?

769
00:48:19,239 --> 00:48:23,280
Speaker 3: I mean there must be a reason why they're doing it, right.

770
00:48:23,840 --> 00:48:26,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, Well, the reason they do it they believe it

771
00:48:26,600 --> 00:48:32,080
Speaker 2: helps people. Obviously, these again, these are good people. They mean, well,

772
00:48:33,239 --> 00:48:36,200
Speaker 2: how successful? Well, first of all, there hasn't been a

773
00:48:36,280 --> 00:48:43,320
Speaker 2: randomized control placebo studied since nineteen eighty five. They refuse

774
00:48:43,480 --> 00:48:46,880
Speaker 2: to do any randomized control trust because they say it

775
00:48:46,880 --> 00:48:50,719
Speaker 2: would be unethical to withhold a treatment that they know.

776
00:48:53,440 --> 00:48:55,600
Speaker 1: That's crazy a lot of minute.

777
00:48:55,640 --> 00:49:00,960
Speaker 3: So the argument goes, and we don't want to test

778
00:49:01,160 --> 00:49:04,600
Speaker 3: this treatment that clearly has all of these side effects

779
00:49:04,640 --> 00:49:09,799
Speaker 3: because we believe it's the best treatment, and having a

780
00:49:10,040 --> 00:49:14,760
Speaker 3: randomized of our control group with not having this treatment

781
00:49:14,840 --> 00:49:15,720
Speaker 3: is bad for the pertient.

782
00:49:16,560 --> 00:49:20,600
Speaker 2: It's correct. And I explained to them that that positions

783
00:49:20,640 --> 00:49:26,000
Speaker 2: you entirely outside of science. Altogether. The whole point of

784
00:49:26,200 --> 00:49:28,440
Speaker 2: siple control, as you just said, that whole point is

785
00:49:28,480 --> 00:49:32,200
Speaker 2: to find out because we all believe what we do works. Yes,

786
00:49:32,560 --> 00:49:35,319
Speaker 2: I believe all the psychotherapy I did well, not all

787
00:49:35,360 --> 00:49:38,640
Speaker 2: of it, most of it works, but I can't prove

788
00:49:38,640 --> 00:49:42,200
Speaker 2: that unless there's some sort of study. But they refuse

789
00:49:42,280 --> 00:49:46,279
Speaker 2: to do this. There's only ever been ten before before

790
00:49:46,360 --> 00:49:50,879
Speaker 2: nineteen eighty five, tiny studies, very flawed. Four of them

791
00:49:50,920 --> 00:49:54,680
Speaker 2: found and there was a slight benefit to act at

792
00:49:54,719 --> 00:49:57,680
Speaker 2: the end of treatment, and the other six found no difference,

793
00:49:58,440 --> 00:50:02,040
Speaker 2: and none of them found any different and a week out,

794
00:50:02,680 --> 00:50:05,200
Speaker 2: a week from the end of the last DCT. So

795
00:50:05,360 --> 00:50:10,279
Speaker 2: and on this basis they continue to sell it's safe.

796
00:50:10,719 --> 00:50:14,719
Speaker 2: And they they do studies, you know, they compare that

797
00:50:14,880 --> 00:50:18,880
Speaker 2: to to antidepressants and ketamine and all sorts, and and

798
00:50:19,239 --> 00:50:22,160
Speaker 2: that's all those results very are very mixed. There's no

799
00:50:22,239 --> 00:50:25,000
Speaker 2: doubt some people get a temporary lift in mood, Paul,

800
00:50:25,040 --> 00:50:28,960
Speaker 2: There's no doubt about it. And that's partly very powerful place.

801
00:50:29,120 --> 00:50:33,359
Speaker 2: But you think about it, you're very, very depressed. Yeah,

802
00:50:33,440 --> 00:50:36,680
Speaker 2: you've tried other things and they haven't worked. And the

803
00:50:36,719 --> 00:50:39,840
Speaker 2: doctors tell here's something that we know works, and you

804
00:50:39,920 --> 00:50:44,600
Speaker 2: have people in white coats, you have nurses, you have anesthetists. Yeah,

805
00:50:44,680 --> 00:50:48,040
Speaker 2: ten times when you come around, your head is very

806
00:50:48,080 --> 00:50:51,040
Speaker 2: fuzzy and made your headache for the first hour or so.

807
00:50:51,120 --> 00:50:54,239
Speaker 2: With that fades away, then you feel fuzzy. You have

808
00:50:54,320 --> 00:50:58,360
Speaker 2: the sort of euphoria that is described for most minor

809
00:50:58,400 --> 00:51:03,160
Speaker 2: brain trauma and think, oh, I'm wise, fels different, and

810
00:51:04,640 --> 00:51:09,080
Speaker 2: the fact that goes away a few days later. But

811
00:51:09,160 --> 00:51:12,560
Speaker 2: the people, what I'm saying is people do in our

812
00:51:12,719 --> 00:51:15,680
Speaker 2: in our survey we have a minority. People definitely say

813
00:51:15,719 --> 00:51:19,000
Speaker 2: it help me, and some saying it saved my life.

814
00:51:19,400 --> 00:51:23,719
Speaker 3: That It's interesting what you say about the placebo there

815
00:51:23,719 --> 00:51:28,280
Speaker 3: are because I know from the placebo research that big

816
00:51:28,320 --> 00:51:31,960
Speaker 3: pills are more effective than little pills. The capsules are

817
00:51:32,000 --> 00:51:36,239
Speaker 3: more effective than pills. That the frequency that you take it,

818
00:51:36,280 --> 00:51:39,760
Speaker 3: if you're told to take one once a day versus

819
00:51:39,760 --> 00:51:43,040
Speaker 3: once a week, the once a day one is more effective.

820
00:51:43,320 --> 00:51:47,520
Speaker 3: We know that injections are more effective, sticking needles in

821
00:51:48,000 --> 00:51:51,799
Speaker 3: and is more effective. So the I guess what I'm

822
00:51:51,840 --> 00:51:56,319
Speaker 3: getting at is is the the size are they are.

823
00:51:56,360 --> 00:52:03,600
Speaker 3: The perceived size of the treatment affects the placebo effect.

824
00:52:03,719 --> 00:52:07,360
Speaker 3: And you've just described something that is way beyond capsules

825
00:52:07,360 --> 00:52:09,640
Speaker 3: and pills.

826
00:52:09,640 --> 00:52:11,880
Speaker 2: It's a boat as intrusive as you can get. And

827
00:52:11,880 --> 00:52:14,040
Speaker 2: as you said, the more intrusive or the larger, whichever

828
00:52:14,200 --> 00:52:17,000
Speaker 2: you want to put in the treatment, they're stronger than placebo.

829
00:52:17,400 --> 00:52:22,000
Speaker 2: There's nothing wrong with placebo. Placebo. It's the expectation of

830
00:52:22,000 --> 00:52:25,560
Speaker 2: ho yep. And a lot of what our psychologists do

831
00:52:25,760 --> 00:52:29,880
Speaker 2: is pacebo. And I'm not bothered by that. It's and

832
00:52:29,960 --> 00:52:32,000
Speaker 2: as soon as you decided to do something. You know,

833
00:52:32,000 --> 00:52:33,680
Speaker 2: if you've been struggling with something and you go and

834
00:52:33,719 --> 00:52:37,160
Speaker 2: ask for help, you feel better immediately. Yeah, yeah, and

835
00:52:37,200 --> 00:52:39,759
Speaker 2: you and you ascribe that to whatever the whatever the

836
00:52:39,840 --> 00:52:43,000
Speaker 2: doctor or psychologist did. You ascribe it to that treatment,

837
00:52:43,440 --> 00:52:46,880
Speaker 2: versus the fact that I've got my assa doing something

838
00:52:47,200 --> 00:52:49,239
Speaker 2: and I went to see somebody and they listened long

839
00:52:49,320 --> 00:52:52,000
Speaker 2: enough to decide to give me something, and I feel

840
00:52:52,000 --> 00:52:55,640
Speaker 2: better now, and that's great. I mean, placebo is Latin

841
00:52:55,719 --> 00:52:57,280
Speaker 2: for I please. Yeah.

842
00:52:57,480 --> 00:52:59,760
Speaker 3: And I used to be I used to be critical

843
00:52:59,760 --> 00:53:03,080
Speaker 3: of things and and and and that that had a

844
00:53:03,239 --> 00:53:05,960
Speaker 3: you know, potentially large placebo thing, and now I might

845
00:53:06,040 --> 00:53:09,200
Speaker 3: I've changed and I've gone Actually that's okay, And we

846
00:53:09,239 --> 00:53:10,759
Speaker 3: should probably harness it.

847
00:53:11,640 --> 00:53:13,560
Speaker 1: You know, we should probably harness it.

848
00:53:13,760 --> 00:53:15,320
Speaker 3: I mean, jeez, we could talk all day about the

849
00:53:15,600 --> 00:53:19,319
Speaker 3: research on placebo and but and look, look we need

850
00:53:19,360 --> 00:53:23,240
Speaker 3: to start to wind up. I would imagine John that

851
00:53:23,400 --> 00:53:25,359
Speaker 3: you know, you produce a lot of research, your your

852
00:53:25,400 --> 00:53:28,920
Speaker 3: your your a big voice in this area. I would

853
00:53:28,920 --> 00:53:32,560
Speaker 3: imagine that a lot of psychiatrists are not very happy

854
00:53:32,600 --> 00:53:37,080
Speaker 3: with you, and that you're probably attacked left, right and center.

855
00:53:37,640 --> 00:53:40,480
Speaker 3: And number one does that happen? And and number two

856
00:53:40,600 --> 00:53:45,200
Speaker 3: what gives you the courage to keep pushing back against

857
00:53:45,280 --> 00:53:47,600
Speaker 3: this system?

858
00:53:47,719 --> 00:53:50,759
Speaker 2: Well, yeah, it does does happen so social media, But

859
00:53:51,360 --> 00:53:55,600
Speaker 2: it happens a lot, gets quite ugly there. But some

860
00:53:55,680 --> 00:54:00,360
Speaker 2: of the responses in the scientific journals, some of the

861
00:54:00,400 --> 00:54:06,200
Speaker 2: attempts to discredit our research, our interestingly literally misrepresent what

862
00:54:06,239 --> 00:54:08,520
Speaker 2: we said and a blah blah blah. Soh yes, it

863
00:54:08,120 --> 00:54:11,400
Speaker 2: does happen. But we get a range of responses. I mean,

864
00:54:11,400 --> 00:54:15,400
Speaker 2: in Britain we have a very strong critical psychiatry movement,

865
00:54:15,440 --> 00:54:20,040
Speaker 2: as as a large group of psychiatrists who are as

866
00:54:20,080 --> 00:54:22,919
Speaker 2: critical as I am of psychiatry. So there's a range

867
00:54:22,960 --> 00:54:23,719
Speaker 2: of responses.

868
00:54:25,640 --> 00:54:26,560
Speaker 1: But yes, it does.

869
00:54:27,040 --> 00:54:29,319
Speaker 2: Some of our work does represent a bit of a

870
00:54:29,320 --> 00:54:34,480
Speaker 2: threat to the core identity of biological psychiatry. Certainly, what

871
00:54:34,600 --> 00:54:38,440
Speaker 2: gives me the courage, well, I don't feel well. I

872
00:54:38,480 --> 00:54:41,400
Speaker 2: guess what keeps me going is seeing people who have

873
00:54:41,440 --> 00:54:44,800
Speaker 2: been through the system themselves and who are campaigning and

874
00:54:47,400 --> 00:54:49,720
Speaker 2: trying to create a better, a better mental health system.

875
00:54:49,760 --> 00:54:53,160
Speaker 2: Our ECT research group of six of us, three of

876
00:54:54,920 --> 00:54:57,480
Speaker 2: the team have had ECT themselves. Three women who have

877
00:54:57,560 --> 00:55:03,160
Speaker 2: been through ECT. Wow, ruggle in many ways, but are

878
00:55:03,320 --> 00:55:07,719
Speaker 2: determined to do what they can to reduce a number

879
00:55:07,719 --> 00:55:10,480
Speaker 2: of people who go through the same thing as then

880
00:55:10,719 --> 00:55:12,880
Speaker 2: and to increase the number of people that get some

881
00:55:12,920 --> 00:55:16,200
Speaker 2: sort of rehabilitation, because the most shocking thing about ECT

882
00:55:17,080 --> 00:55:21,560
Speaker 2: is that nobody ever gets any rehab or help for

883
00:55:21,719 --> 00:55:24,919
Speaker 2: the memory loss or brain damage because you can't get

884
00:55:24,960 --> 00:55:30,520
Speaker 2: that because they won't admit that it exists. And these

885
00:55:30,560 --> 00:55:33,840
Speaker 2: three women are so determined that's been a joy to

886
00:55:34,480 --> 00:55:37,600
Speaker 2: a joy to work with them. So they keep me going,

887
00:55:37,760 --> 00:55:42,440
Speaker 2: I guess, And we are having some effects. So I mean,

888
00:55:42,520 --> 00:55:46,000
Speaker 2: I think I'm on a behavior's called a partial reinforcement schedule.

889
00:55:50,640 --> 00:55:55,120
Speaker 3: Yeah, look, I mean it must be very rewarding when

890
00:55:55,200 --> 00:55:58,520
Speaker 3: you start to make a difference, when you see the

891
00:55:58,560 --> 00:56:04,440
Speaker 3: needles start to move and you know, yeah, what what's

892
00:56:04,480 --> 00:56:09,320
Speaker 3: your what's your hope for the whole mental health industry?

893
00:56:09,400 --> 00:56:11,960
Speaker 1: Well, I mean, what what does good look like in

894
00:56:12,000 --> 00:56:12,480
Speaker 1: your view?

895
00:56:13,960 --> 00:56:18,640
Speaker 2: Well, and i know it's going to be incremental because

896
00:56:18,800 --> 00:56:21,359
Speaker 2: I've been at this far too long to know that

897
00:56:22,000 --> 00:56:24,920
Speaker 2: big change is not going to happen quickly. So the

898
00:56:24,960 --> 00:56:31,920
Speaker 2: incremental changes towards a yeah, towards the trauma informed approach

899
00:56:32,360 --> 00:56:37,640
Speaker 2: the things and really having I think the goal is

900
00:56:37,680 --> 00:56:42,920
Speaker 2: for to have the biological folk have much less influence

901
00:56:43,600 --> 00:56:46,000
Speaker 2: and and and for society and to understand that these

902
00:56:46,000 --> 00:56:49,040
Speaker 2: are not really medical problems. That's I think that's the goal.

903
00:56:49,840 --> 00:56:52,480
Speaker 2: When when we're upset by something that is not a

904
00:56:52,520 --> 00:56:55,880
Speaker 2: medical problem, we don't need to go to a medical professional.

905
00:56:56,200 --> 00:56:58,759
Speaker 2: We need to support one another. We need to as

906
00:56:58,800 --> 00:57:02,080
Speaker 2: you say, eat better, get more exercise. And one of

907
00:57:02,120 --> 00:57:04,520
Speaker 2: the most promising things happening in Britain is the is

908
00:57:04,520 --> 00:57:08,759
Speaker 2: the social prescribing. So a lot of GP preposes now

909
00:57:08,880 --> 00:57:12,840
Speaker 2: have a social prescribing person in the office.

910
00:57:12,880 --> 00:57:13,920
Speaker 1: That's cool.

911
00:57:14,640 --> 00:57:17,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, And it's not just exercises. You know, might join

912
00:57:17,760 --> 00:57:20,960
Speaker 2: the chess club, do what I've done recently and joined

913
00:57:20,960 --> 00:57:23,400
Speaker 2: a choir which is really makes me happy on a

914
00:57:23,440 --> 00:57:29,160
Speaker 2: Tuesday evening. Just just do something, do something. So that's

915
00:57:29,200 --> 00:57:32,480
Speaker 2: that's it's almost in returns of common sense. And we've

916
00:57:32,520 --> 00:57:37,560
Speaker 2: got to just rid ourselves with this crippling ideology that

917
00:57:37,600 --> 00:57:39,600
Speaker 2: there's something wrong with our brains if we get upset.

918
00:57:40,040 --> 00:57:43,680
Speaker 2: So that's that's the goal. And we're moving very slowly,

919
00:57:44,440 --> 00:57:46,160
Speaker 2: very slowly in the right direction. I think.

920
00:57:46,880 --> 00:57:49,720
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that And interesting you talked about joining acquired.

921
00:57:49,720 --> 00:57:52,880
Speaker 3: I read some research recently that when when a group

922
00:57:52,920 --> 00:57:57,040
Speaker 3: of humans are doing the same thing at the same time,

923
00:57:57,840 --> 00:58:01,960
Speaker 3: they get that whole connection and that and they feel

924
00:58:02,400 --> 00:58:05,480
Speaker 3: they feel better connected as individuals.

925
00:58:05,720 --> 00:58:08,440
Speaker 1: So that you know, the obvious one is singing, there's dancing.

926
00:58:08,680 --> 00:58:10,360
Speaker 3: But it reminded me of my time in the military

927
00:58:10,400 --> 00:58:14,800
Speaker 3: and marching and that when when people march together in time,

928
00:58:14,880 --> 00:58:17,520
Speaker 3: they feel a level of deep connectedness. And I think

929
00:58:17,520 --> 00:58:22,240
Speaker 3: that's why the military do it right. So yeah, yeah, no,

930
00:58:22,320 --> 00:58:26,960
Speaker 3: that's just an interesting little aside. So John, look, look,

931
00:58:27,080 --> 00:58:28,920
Speaker 3: thanks thank you for you're telling you being very generous

932
00:58:28,920 --> 00:58:29,479
Speaker 3: with your time.

933
00:58:32,240 --> 00:58:36,240
Speaker 1: We need more. We need more John Reads in the world.

934
00:58:36,240 --> 00:58:38,560
Speaker 1: We need more Juan one a Monk Crease. We need more.

935
00:58:38,680 --> 00:58:43,280
Speaker 3: Mark Horowitz is in the world, and so that everybody

936
00:58:43,320 --> 00:58:47,040
Speaker 3: can get the proper treatment that they that they actually

937
00:58:47,120 --> 00:58:52,320
Speaker 3: need and actually have proper informed consent when whenever they

938
00:58:52,360 --> 00:58:52,960
Speaker 3: go into it.

939
00:58:53,120 --> 00:58:54,840
Speaker 1: So I do.

940
00:58:55,000 --> 00:58:58,280
Speaker 3: I I tip my hat to you because you're doing

941
00:58:58,560 --> 00:58:59,560
Speaker 3: very important work.

942
00:58:59,680 --> 00:59:02,520
Speaker 1: So thank you for stam, Thank you keep cracking on.

943
00:59:03,480 --> 00:59:06,000
Speaker 2: Thank you for having me appreciate pleasure