1 00:00:05,640 --> 00:00:08,440 Speaker 1: Welcome to the Fear and Greed Business Interview. I'm Sean Aylmer. 2 00:00:08,560 --> 00:00:11,920 Speaker 1: The value of wive Tech Global fell by about eight 3 00:00:12,160 --> 00:00:15,880 Speaker 1: billion dollars over the last three sessions after media reported 4 00:00:15,920 --> 00:00:20,360 Speaker 1: allegations of inappropriate behavior by founder and chief executive Richard White. 5 00:00:20,560 --> 00:00:23,320 Speaker 1: The allegations are unproven, but the ongoing headlines around the 6 00:00:23,360 --> 00:00:27,560 Speaker 1: billionaire are clearly affecting investors. The logistics tracking company isn't 7 00:00:27,560 --> 00:00:30,240 Speaker 1: the only one dealing with the crisis of culture right now. 8 00:00:30,560 --> 00:00:34,520 Speaker 1: Nine Entertainment last week released the Intersection Report detailing confronting 9 00:00:34,600 --> 00:00:37,760 Speaker 1: allegations from staff about the abuse of power, bullying and 10 00:00:37,800 --> 00:00:42,279 Speaker 1: sexual harassment, and mineral resources. Senior management have also been 11 00:00:42,320 --> 00:00:44,760 Speaker 1: caught up in a tax avoidance scheme, or at least 12 00:00:44,760 --> 00:00:47,800 Speaker 1: an alleged tax avoidance scheme. It's for the proof of 13 00:00:47,880 --> 00:00:50,760 Speaker 1: the importance of culture in a workplace, because having an 14 00:00:50,880 --> 00:00:53,880 Speaker 1: environment where employees are safe and supported is not just 15 00:00:54,000 --> 00:00:56,840 Speaker 1: more productive, it has a material impact on the company's 16 00:00:56,840 --> 00:01:00,400 Speaker 1: bottom line. Jared murphy'sy co founder of Performance by Design. 17 00:01:00,560 --> 00:01:04,039 Speaker 1: He's been a leading management consultant in Asia, Pacific, Europe 18 00:01:04,120 --> 00:01:06,800 Speaker 1: and North America for more than two decades. Locally, he's 19 00:01:06,840 --> 00:01:09,880 Speaker 1: worked with companies like Wes Pacinisson and Bunning's Jared, welcome 20 00:01:09,880 --> 00:01:10,679 Speaker 1: back to Fearing Greed. 21 00:01:11,240 --> 00:01:13,480 Speaker 2: Well, sure, thank you very much, great to be with you. 22 00:01:13,880 --> 00:01:17,640 Speaker 1: Do these stories that we hear about nine and wistepping 23 00:01:17,800 --> 00:01:20,720 Speaker 1: mineral resources, but there are plenty of others. Do they 24 00:01:20,800 --> 00:01:23,320 Speaker 1: surprise you that we're still getting these stories in twenty 25 00:01:23,360 --> 00:01:23,840 Speaker 1: twenty four? 26 00:01:24,720 --> 00:01:27,959 Speaker 2: The answer should be yes, But the truth is it's no. 27 00:01:28,680 --> 00:01:31,240 Speaker 2: And so often we see it when we're working with 28 00:01:31,319 --> 00:01:35,679 Speaker 2: companies that if the staff for the employees or the 29 00:01:35,760 --> 00:01:39,040 Speaker 2: team aren't comfortable enough to speak up, or we haven't 30 00:01:39,080 --> 00:01:43,920 Speaker 2: created that environment of trust, then what happens is we 31 00:01:44,040 --> 00:01:47,480 Speaker 2: get to a point where it just goes on and 32 00:01:46,600 --> 00:01:50,120 Speaker 2: people can see it happening, but they're not prepared to 33 00:01:50,120 --> 00:01:53,440 Speaker 2: speak up, and as a result of that, you end 34 00:01:53,520 --> 00:01:57,120 Speaker 2: up in scenarios you've just described. So the answer is 35 00:01:57,480 --> 00:01:59,880 Speaker 2: it doesn't surprise me, which is really just. 36 00:02:01,080 --> 00:02:04,040 Speaker 1: How difficult is it when people at the top are 37 00:02:04,080 --> 00:02:07,760 Speaker 1: doing the wrong thing compared to people in middle management? 38 00:02:08,480 --> 00:02:11,840 Speaker 2: Oh it's terrible. It's so difficult because the truth is 39 00:02:11,840 --> 00:02:15,360 Speaker 2: who wants to really call out the boss? And even 40 00:02:15,400 --> 00:02:18,519 Speaker 2: at a positive level. So we do a lot of 41 00:02:18,560 --> 00:02:21,880 Speaker 2: work in professional sport, as you know, and if the 42 00:02:21,919 --> 00:02:24,280 Speaker 2: head coach, if the head coach is doing a great 43 00:02:24,320 --> 00:02:26,720 Speaker 2: job of when they just don't get feedback. So it's 44 00:02:26,840 --> 00:02:31,400 Speaker 2: even difficult to give positive feedback. Giving not so positive 45 00:02:31,440 --> 00:02:35,079 Speaker 2: feedback is super difficult. And that's why it's really important 46 00:02:35,200 --> 00:02:40,400 Speaker 2: that boards and executive teams set up a really clear 47 00:02:40,720 --> 00:02:43,960 Speaker 2: set of behaviors so that it makes it okay for 48 00:02:44,080 --> 00:02:46,080 Speaker 2: us to say, hang on. I'm not really sure if 49 00:02:46,080 --> 00:02:50,560 Speaker 2: that's right, because by definition we would describe a high 50 00:02:50,639 --> 00:02:53,560 Speaker 2: performing team is a group of people that feel safe 51 00:02:53,600 --> 00:02:57,320 Speaker 2: to give and receive feedback, to ask for help, to 52 00:02:57,400 --> 00:03:03,200 Speaker 2: ask questions, so that it doesn't matter what the scenario is, 53 00:03:03,240 --> 00:03:05,200 Speaker 2: we can just say, hey, hang on, Sean, is that 54 00:03:05,280 --> 00:03:07,560 Speaker 2: the best way to do it? And if it's not, 55 00:03:07,639 --> 00:03:11,200 Speaker 2: can we fix it up. But what you find when 56 00:03:11,200 --> 00:03:13,440 Speaker 2: you've got an environment where people don't feel safe to 57 00:03:13,480 --> 00:03:17,000 Speaker 2: speak is that the unacceptable behavior is just perpetuate and 58 00:03:17,040 --> 00:03:17,919 Speaker 2: often become worse. 59 00:03:19,000 --> 00:03:23,200 Speaker 1: So what's the first few steps in creating that? I mean, 60 00:03:23,240 --> 00:03:25,959 Speaker 1: it's not something that you can do overnight. It takes trust, 61 00:03:26,200 --> 00:03:29,240 Speaker 1: I'm sure performance by design. You spend a lot of 62 00:03:29,240 --> 00:03:32,000 Speaker 1: time with sports teams but also corporates talking about this 63 00:03:32,080 --> 00:03:34,800 Speaker 1: sort of thing. How do you start the process. How 64 00:03:34,800 --> 00:03:36,680 Speaker 1: do you just kick things off? At least? 65 00:03:37,280 --> 00:03:40,600 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's much simpler than people think. So in essence, 66 00:03:40,600 --> 00:03:43,560 Speaker 2: you get the executive team together, and because it always 67 00:03:43,560 --> 00:03:46,640 Speaker 2: has to begin at the senior level, because if it's 68 00:03:46,720 --> 00:03:50,280 Speaker 2: no use the teams in minus one or minus two 69 00:03:50,400 --> 00:03:53,440 Speaker 2: level in a corporate structure doing their best, but at 70 00:03:53,440 --> 00:03:57,320 Speaker 2: the executive team, some of the behaviors are unacceptable. So 71 00:03:57,840 --> 00:04:01,520 Speaker 2: we would always start with the executve team and basically 72 00:04:01,640 --> 00:04:04,800 Speaker 2: do a quick audit, you know, how what's our purpose, 73 00:04:04,840 --> 00:04:06,600 Speaker 2: how do we want to be described? How would we 74 00:04:06,640 --> 00:04:11,160 Speaker 2: be described now by ourselves and others? And then in 75 00:04:11,200 --> 00:04:13,560 Speaker 2: the future and an ideal world, what do we want 76 00:04:13,560 --> 00:04:16,520 Speaker 2: that to look like? And so once you've done that audit, 77 00:04:16,560 --> 00:04:18,840 Speaker 2: then you start to look at the behaviors that we 78 00:04:18,960 --> 00:04:23,040 Speaker 2: believe are acceptable or unacceptable. So it's about the group 79 00:04:23,720 --> 00:04:27,400 Speaker 2: then putting in place, I guess a code of conduct, 80 00:04:27,480 --> 00:04:30,120 Speaker 2: we caught a culture code so that they can operate 81 00:04:30,160 --> 00:04:33,479 Speaker 2: within that. And then having set up our rules of 82 00:04:33,560 --> 00:04:36,479 Speaker 2: engagement or our culture code, we would then start to 83 00:04:36,520 --> 00:04:40,279 Speaker 2: work through Okay, do you understand yourself? Because leaders who 84 00:04:40,360 --> 00:04:44,400 Speaker 2: lack self awareness, they are the biggest issue, because what 85 00:04:44,560 --> 00:04:48,120 Speaker 2: happens is they think that they are behaving in a 86 00:04:48,120 --> 00:04:51,599 Speaker 2: certain way, but the truth is other people are seeing 87 00:04:51,640 --> 00:04:55,279 Speaker 2: that differently. And when you get that gap, that's where 88 00:04:55,320 --> 00:04:58,479 Speaker 2: you get a real breakdown of leadership. So we would say, 89 00:04:58,600 --> 00:05:02,280 Speaker 2: get clear your rules of engage, your culture code, your behaviors. 90 00:05:02,880 --> 00:05:05,880 Speaker 2: Conduct some sort of profiling so that you understand yourself 91 00:05:05,920 --> 00:05:09,280 Speaker 2: and others. Take some steps to build some really good 92 00:05:09,279 --> 00:05:12,880 Speaker 2: relationships so that you know a bit more about your teammates, 93 00:05:12,880 --> 00:05:16,719 Speaker 2: because it's much harder to treat people that you know 94 00:05:16,800 --> 00:05:21,440 Speaker 2: well and respect badly. So building those relationships and then 95 00:05:21,560 --> 00:05:26,960 Speaker 2: undertaking I guess formal structured conversations about performance so that 96 00:05:27,160 --> 00:05:30,240 Speaker 2: people start to feel safe to have conversations, and so 97 00:05:30,400 --> 00:05:34,120 Speaker 2: that it's not giving or receiving feedback, it's not a 98 00:05:34,120 --> 00:05:36,440 Speaker 2: big deal. It's just actually saying, hey, can we do 99 00:05:36,480 --> 00:05:39,320 Speaker 2: this better? And once you've got that in place, you 100 00:05:39,560 --> 00:05:42,920 Speaker 2: then can start to put in place systems that allow 101 00:05:43,080 --> 00:05:46,760 Speaker 2: this to continue on a regular basis. And again, I 102 00:05:46,800 --> 00:05:49,880 Speaker 2: think that's one of the things that sport does so well, Sean, 103 00:05:50,000 --> 00:05:53,200 Speaker 2: is that it puts in place systems of review, systems 104 00:05:53,200 --> 00:05:58,400 Speaker 2: of feedback, and conversation that allows us to continually question 105 00:05:59,160 --> 00:06:01,960 Speaker 2: and reward good and not so good behaviors. 106 00:06:02,480 --> 00:06:05,920 Speaker 1: Stay with me, Jered. We'll be back in a minute. 107 00:06:11,080 --> 00:06:14,560 Speaker 1: I'm speaking to Jered Murphy, co founder of Performance by Design. 108 00:06:15,560 --> 00:06:19,360 Speaker 1: It's kind of interesting the idea. The review day after 109 00:06:19,400 --> 00:06:21,440 Speaker 1: a game in sport is always a very big day. 110 00:06:21,440 --> 00:06:22,880 Speaker 1: It might be the next day of the one after, 111 00:06:23,080 --> 00:06:25,359 Speaker 1: and people are expected to have watched the video and 112 00:06:25,440 --> 00:06:28,440 Speaker 1: they sit there and they discuss the good, the bad, 113 00:06:28,520 --> 00:06:32,520 Speaker 1: the ugly. But it's a very open culture generally. Do 114 00:06:32,680 --> 00:06:34,839 Speaker 1: corporates ever do that, you know, kind of every month 115 00:06:34,920 --> 00:06:37,000 Speaker 1: sit back and say, hey, what have we done? What 116 00:06:37,040 --> 00:06:39,400 Speaker 1: haven't we done? Because great sporting teams do it all 117 00:06:39,400 --> 00:06:39,800 Speaker 1: the time. 118 00:06:40,560 --> 00:06:43,520 Speaker 2: Yeah, we don't do it often enough in the corporate world. 119 00:06:43,560 --> 00:06:47,120 Speaker 2: And I think if boards ask the question of their 120 00:06:47,200 --> 00:06:51,880 Speaker 2: executive team, do we regularly conduct reviews? And we clearly 121 00:06:51,880 --> 00:06:53,920 Speaker 2: can't do it as often as we're doing sporting teams. 122 00:06:53,920 --> 00:06:57,240 Speaker 2: But if we regularly conducted reviews about what we're doing 123 00:06:57,240 --> 00:07:00,360 Speaker 2: well and what we weren't doing well, particularly against our behavior, 124 00:07:00,560 --> 00:07:03,880 Speaker 2: so that's the cultural piece, then we would start to 125 00:07:03,960 --> 00:07:07,120 Speaker 2: pick up things much earlier. And I think what our 126 00:07:07,160 --> 00:07:10,800 Speaker 2: process does is it allows us to grab little things 127 00:07:10,800 --> 00:07:13,760 Speaker 2: and stop them from turning into big things. It stops 128 00:07:13,800 --> 00:07:18,080 Speaker 2: that creep. Because culture doesn't change quickly necessarily unless you 129 00:07:18,120 --> 00:07:21,200 Speaker 2: have some catastrophic event. What it does It just incre 130 00:07:21,240 --> 00:07:24,760 Speaker 2: mentally decreases, and then one day you wake up, like 131 00:07:24,960 --> 00:07:26,800 Speaker 2: some of the companies you've just mentioned, and go, how 132 00:07:26,800 --> 00:07:29,840 Speaker 2: the hell did we get here? Like this is what? 133 00:07:29,840 --> 00:07:32,400 Speaker 2: What could what could possibly have gone on that's allowed 134 00:07:32,440 --> 00:07:34,960 Speaker 2: us to get to this point? And it's because it's slowly, 135 00:07:35,800 --> 00:07:38,440 Speaker 2: slowly diminished over time. 136 00:07:39,440 --> 00:07:41,800 Speaker 1: What about if you take the nine example, and we 137 00:07:41,840 --> 00:07:43,840 Speaker 1: have more details on that because there was an internal 138 00:07:43,880 --> 00:07:48,200 Speaker 1: report which was released. There's obviously a toxic culture in 139 00:07:48,520 --> 00:07:54,920 Speaker 1: pockets of nine. How do you start fixing an organization 140 00:07:55,200 --> 00:07:58,920 Speaker 1: like nine where there are a bunch of good people 141 00:07:58,920 --> 00:08:00,360 Speaker 1: and I mean, I don't know the number, but let's 142 00:08:00,360 --> 00:08:02,840 Speaker 1: say ninety percent are really good, five percent are bad, 143 00:08:02,880 --> 00:08:04,520 Speaker 1: and there's five percent somewhere in between. But you know, 144 00:08:04,600 --> 00:08:07,200 Speaker 1: by far the large majority of people are hard working people. 145 00:08:08,240 --> 00:08:10,840 Speaker 1: How do you get rid of that toxic culture? 146 00:08:11,640 --> 00:08:14,640 Speaker 2: Well, it goes back, and if you don't mind it, 147 00:08:14,720 --> 00:08:18,080 Speaker 2: probably prefer not to speak about nine. But okay, every 148 00:08:18,160 --> 00:08:22,560 Speaker 2: every organization has subcultures yep. And so you have to 149 00:08:23,240 --> 00:08:26,480 Speaker 2: be able to work through where are the dominant cultures 150 00:08:26,480 --> 00:08:30,600 Speaker 2: and where they are not so dominant areas. But I'll 151 00:08:30,640 --> 00:08:33,280 Speaker 2: just keep going back to the top. You've got to 152 00:08:33,320 --> 00:08:37,360 Speaker 2: clean up your executive suite, like the C suite has 153 00:08:37,400 --> 00:08:39,600 Speaker 2: to be. They have to be good people. They have 154 00:08:39,679 --> 00:08:42,960 Speaker 2: to have clear personal values, they have to be authentic leaders, 155 00:08:43,320 --> 00:08:45,480 Speaker 2: they have to be trustworthy, they have to deliver on 156 00:08:45,520 --> 00:08:49,360 Speaker 2: their word. Like they're all really simple context, but they're 157 00:08:49,400 --> 00:08:52,240 Speaker 2: hard to get a really strong group of people that 158 00:08:52,679 --> 00:08:57,280 Speaker 2: come together with that absolute focus on organization ahead of 159 00:08:57,360 --> 00:09:01,520 Speaker 2: self first. And we often talk about trust being have 160 00:09:01,640 --> 00:09:04,800 Speaker 2: you got the skills to do your job? And in 161 00:09:04,880 --> 00:09:08,120 Speaker 2: an executive team, the answer is yes, because you don't 162 00:09:08,160 --> 00:09:10,679 Speaker 2: get on an executive team unless you are technically good. 163 00:09:11,160 --> 00:09:13,960 Speaker 2: But the one that gets brings us undone is the 164 00:09:14,640 --> 00:09:19,640 Speaker 2: I put myself ahead of the team, so it becomes 165 00:09:19,679 --> 00:09:22,520 Speaker 2: more about me. And so if you think of trust 166 00:09:22,840 --> 00:09:28,120 Speaker 2: from a technical or a cultural perspective, really focusing in 167 00:09:28,160 --> 00:09:31,480 Speaker 2: on what are our behaviors, what's acceptable and then and 168 00:09:31,520 --> 00:09:33,360 Speaker 2: then you can go to the trust bank or the 169 00:09:33,400 --> 00:09:38,040 Speaker 2: trust bucket. Like people, we over complicate trust. And so 170 00:09:38,360 --> 00:09:42,160 Speaker 2: if I do good things for you, then I make deposits. 171 00:09:42,440 --> 00:09:46,920 Speaker 2: If I do inappropriate unacceptable things, I make withdrawals. And 172 00:09:46,960 --> 00:09:50,280 Speaker 2: so the trust Bank account will go up and down 173 00:09:51,000 --> 00:09:53,280 Speaker 2: all the time. But our executive team have to be 174 00:09:53,280 --> 00:09:55,360 Speaker 2: beyond approach when it comes to trust. We have to 175 00:09:55,360 --> 00:09:57,559 Speaker 2: look at them and go, yes, I trust that they 176 00:09:57,559 --> 00:09:59,920 Speaker 2: can do their jobs, and I trust that they are 177 00:10:00,040 --> 00:10:03,800 Speaker 2: good people. And if we can get that, we're in 178 00:10:03,840 --> 00:10:04,440 Speaker 2: a good place. 179 00:10:05,040 --> 00:10:06,640 Speaker 1: We are out of time. And I actually want to 180 00:10:06,640 --> 00:10:09,240 Speaker 1: ask about blokie culture. And this goes from Donald Trump 181 00:10:09,559 --> 00:10:12,800 Speaker 1: through to what was reported in nine And part of 182 00:10:12,840 --> 00:10:16,400 Speaker 1: that is, without making any excuses for it, it's a 183 00:10:16,440 --> 00:10:20,040 Speaker 1: function of the individuals themselves because they are blokes. It's 184 00:10:20,040 --> 00:10:23,080 Speaker 1: how they've been brought up, it's how they think. Without 185 00:10:23,080 --> 00:10:26,400 Speaker 1: putting a value judgment on that, how do you change that? 186 00:10:28,360 --> 00:10:32,360 Speaker 2: I think it's really simple. You get for more female 187 00:10:32,440 --> 00:10:36,679 Speaker 2: executives in those teams, like those days are just gone, 188 00:10:36,720 --> 00:10:39,360 Speaker 2: and I think that's why it's something incomprehensible that it 189 00:10:39,440 --> 00:10:41,880 Speaker 2: still occurs. So we go back to where you started. 190 00:10:42,520 --> 00:10:46,840 Speaker 2: Are you surprised these examples of happened? The answer is no, 191 00:10:46,920 --> 00:10:49,000 Speaker 2: I'm not surprised, but I should be and I think 192 00:10:49,559 --> 00:10:52,880 Speaker 2: we have to keep speaking up and probably particularly as 193 00:10:52,920 --> 00:10:56,520 Speaker 2: males and male leaders, we have to be able to 194 00:10:56,520 --> 00:10:57,920 Speaker 2: put a hand up and say, hang I no, I 195 00:10:57,920 --> 00:11:02,680 Speaker 2: think that's unacceptable. But at the same time, absolutely increase 196 00:11:02,760 --> 00:11:06,720 Speaker 2: the numbers of female executives on executive teams. We work 197 00:11:06,800 --> 00:11:14,240 Speaker 2: with probably about ten companies where we've got female CEOs andges. 198 00:11:14,360 --> 00:11:17,720 Speaker 2: It changes in a heartbeat because the people can see, hey, 199 00:11:18,360 --> 00:11:19,720 Speaker 2: there is another way to do this. 200 00:11:20,520 --> 00:11:22,240 Speaker 1: Jared, thank you for talking to Fear and Greed. 201 00:11:22,760 --> 00:11:23,960 Speaker 2: No, thank you so much. 202 00:11:24,400 --> 00:11:27,520 Speaker 1: As Jared Murphy, the co founder of Performance by Design. 203 00:11:27,760 --> 00:11:30,160 Speaker 1: This is the Fear and Greed Business Interview. Join us 204 00:11:30,160 --> 00:11:32,439 Speaker 1: every morning for the full episode of Fear and Greed 205 00:11:32,760 --> 00:11:35,520 Speaker 1: business news for people who make their own decisions. I'm 206 00:11:35,559 --> 00:11:37,240 Speaker 1: Sean Almer. Enjoy your day.